WebGUI irc logs from: 2009-07.log

--- Log opened Wed Jul 01 00:00:55 2009
ckotil	must be perlDreamer Time	00:04
@preaction	must be.	00:05
@preaction	he just thinks the world goes round him	00:05
ckotil	thankfully its quittin time. have a good evening.	00:06
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CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11395 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/docs/create.sql: Preparing for 7.6.29 release.	02:08
+perlmonkey2	Is there a Form type that creates a select list which takes an array? I'm not sure why Form::SelectList takes a hash and sets the text as the key value.	02:14
@preaction	perlmonkey2: map { $_ => $_ } @array	02:16
+perlmonkey2	That is certainly a solution :)	02:16
+perlDreamer	tavisto: http://www.mil-oss.org/	02:16
+perlDreamer	perlmonkey2, I think this will work, too: join "\n", @array	02:17
@tavisto	interesting..	02:17
@tavisto	I'll actually be in atlanta but on Jul 15-21st	02:18
@tavisto	son of ah	02:18
+perlmonkey2	map only returns a list right? selectList only takes a ref to a hash. or am I missing something.	02:21
+perlDreamer	{ } fixes that	02:21
+perlDreamer	selectList will also take a string	02:21
+perlDreamer	tavisto: I can't tell if that is the military talking to us, or us to present to the military	02:22
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+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: join with \n adds an extra blank choice.	02:28
+perlmonkey2	why can't I figure out a simple selectList?	02:28
+perlDreamer	It's the weather outside	02:29
+perlmonkey2	trying to reverse engineer how to set the selected value in it from the toHtml code is driving me nuts.	02:29
+perlmonkey2	and where is the code that allows it to take a \n delimited string?	02:31
+perlDreamer	WebGUI::Form::List, ->getOptions	02:34
+perlDreamer	selectList inherits from that	02:35
+perlmonkey2	yeah, looking at it now. just can't figure out why my [value, defaultValue, default] optoins aren't setting one of the selections to selected.	02:35
+perlmonkey2	getOriginalValue must be satiated.	02:36
+perlmonkey2	it's just too fancy for me.	02:40
+perlmonkey2	guess I should hand code my selectLists	02:40
+perlmonkey2	$f->selectList( name => "provider", options => join("\n",@$classes), label => 'Select provider:', value=> $info->{provider}); should work when value is in the optoins list, but it surely doesn't.	02:41
+perlDreamer	why not add a test to t/Form/SelectList.t to check it out?	02:42
+perlDreamer	maybe it's a real bug	02:42
+perlmonkey2	can't be cause Auth uses it and it appears to work.....well, jsut sec I'll see if it does.	02:43
* perlDreamer is going to take a benadryl-assisted nap		02:43
+perlDreamer	I'll backlog when I'm back	02:43
+perlDreamer	sorry for skipping out on you, perlmonkey2	02:43
+perlmonkey2	no worries, but setting the value works for 'selected' in the Auth usage.	02:44
@tavisto	yeah I'm not sure either perldreamer	02:48
+perlmonkey2	oh this is killing me. It was a firefox rendering issue where 'selected' wasn't being highlighted unless the selectbox had focus.	02:49
+perlmonkey2	this is going to require more beer to numb the pain :P	02:49
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11396 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Ready for 7.6.30 development	02:52
Mech422	mornin all	03:51
@tavisto	Mech422, aren't you in Cali?	03:51
Mech422	tavisto: yeah - but I'm a vampire :-)	03:52
Mech422	tavisto: how goes the DNS stuff ? It looked pretty good this AM	03:52
@tavisto	wow I guess so... I stay up reeeeally late too because I am a night owl.. but I don't get up at 5:52pm and say good morning	03:52
@tavisto	and you are PDT!	03:52
Mech422	well, I went to bed around 10am I think - so thats about 8 hours :-)	03:53
@tavisto	heh, you definitely have me beat there. Yes, the DoS stuff is supposedly over and was at 1am this morning... I thought I was up that late and we were still having issues	03:53
@tavisto	anyway, I'm off to the treadmill.. ttyl :)	03:53
Mech422	I was hitting webgui.org around 5 am and it seemed ok...	03:53
Mech422	ahh - mention my name - I could use some excercise	03:53
Mech422	:-)	03:53
Mech422	ugg - us mil going with drupal ? yeesh	03:54
Mech422	thats just ugly	03:55
+perlDreamer	they need to be saved, Mech422	04:00
Mech422	hey pd :-)	04:01
+perlDreamer	yo, yer Mech-ness	04:03
Mech422	Da Mighty Mech ?	04:03
Mech422	Da Messy Mech ?	04:03
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Mech422	oh - I got my demo site re-assembled on the new wG beta and the wre release	04:04
Mech422	all on 64bit goodness	04:04
Mech422	next thing is : I want to have something like /news/2009/06/30/foo, /news/2009/06/30/bar, etc and on / have the 10 newest entries displayed (newest - show 1 para, other 9 - show 1 line 'teaser' text)	04:06
Mech422	I set /news up as a cs - but I'm at a loss as to how to get / to 'pull' the entries from /news	04:07
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@tavisto	use a Syndicated Content asset	04:38
@tavisto	then give the SC asset the URL of the RSS feed that the CS generates	04:39
+perlDreamer	use the StoryArchive instead	04:42
Mech422	err... Umm ?	04:44
Mech422	Don't use collab system ?	04:45
Mech422	ahh - use the SC as the front page with the RSS feed... gotcha	04:45
Mech422	pd: I'm how would storyarchive fit into this? would it replace the CS ?	04:46
Mech422	god I can't type :-P I'm not sure how storyarchive would fit into this? would it replace the CS or augment it like the SC ?	04:47
Mech422	I'm also not sure how I would go about changing templates so the first item shows more 'teaser' then later items	04:49
+perlDreamer	Mech422, that's built into the StoryTopic	04:50
Mech422	So StoryTopic is part of StoryArchive ?	04:52
+perlDreamer	they're related	04:54
+perlDreamer	StoryTopic lets you pull stories from a StoryArchive by keyword	04:54
@tavisto	i dunno, my rule of thumb is never to use anything that perldreamer built	04:56
+perlDreamer	words to live by, from brother tavisto	04:56
Mech422	heh	04:56
+perlDreamer	of course, I didn't build the matrix either...	04:56
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@tavisto	which is why I use Drupal instead of WebGUI.. since Perldreamer has probably touched all of the code in webgui	04:57
+perlDreamer	so probably only things built by preaction and rizen are safe	04:57
@tavisto	lol.	04:57
Mech422	ok - I'll fart around with SC and the SA stuff	04:57
* perlDreamer suggests less beans in the diet, Mech422		04:57
Mech422	tavisto: oh - I thought that was so you could get those phat mil. contracts	04:57
@tavisto	actually, I think someone should get banned for saying "i use drupal" or "i use joomla" in channel	04:57
@tavisto	yeah I did see that at the mil-oss.org site	04:58
@tavisto	topic of discussion... blah	04:58
Mech422	tavisto: nah - cross pollinization is good	04:58
Mech422	tavisto: know your enemy, etc etc	04:58
@tavisto	good idea, it's time for me to visit the joomla channel and I'll start asking about why I should use Joomla instead of WebGUI	04:58
Mech422	yeah - kinda odd they get a discussion... I would have thought one of the big java based systems maybe - but drupal ?	04:58
@tavisto	since people do that to us all the time	04:58
@tavisto	I wonder if it's the commercially supported drupal	04:59
Mech422	tavisto: good idea :-) and check out the sites too... see how the lure people in, etc	04:59
Mech422	tavisto: for instance, typo3 used to just overwhelm you with a ton of unorganzied information	04:59
@tavisto	i had better not find a guy named "drupaldreamer" over there	05:00
Mech422	huge site, little value	05:00
Mech422	hehe	05:00
+perlDreamer	I could take him	05:00
@tavisto	what if perldreamer is actually a spy and has been taking all of our best ideas and putting them into drupal	05:00
@tavisto	......	05:01
+perlDreamer	no, I only sabotage the code to ruin the reputation	05:01
+perlDreamer	it's much easier that way	05:01
@tavisto	yeah good point, and you're good at it	05:01
+perlDreamer	wait til you see how the ProgressBar blows up	05:01
@tavisto	noooooooooo....don't get to 100%	05:01
@tavisto	it's like the bus in Speed getting to 55	05:01
@tavisto	all joking aside, how much work did it take to get the progressbar implemented?	05:02
+perlDreamer	it took 4 of us about 3 hours	05:02
+perlDreamer	preaction had the core idea	05:02
@tavisto	wow	05:02
+perlDreamer	I wrote the reusable API	05:02
+perlDreamer	and then JT rewrote it to be simpler	05:03
+perlDreamer	now it takes about 45 minutes to add the ProgressBar to a new operation	05:03
+perlDreamer	with hand testing and i18n	05:03
@tavisto	very cool man... I love the fact that you guys can bolt that on to anything in WebGUI now too right?	05:03
+perlDreamer	totally	05:03
+perlDreamer	right now it's used by the Rollback Version tag, delete asset, purge asset, paste asset, reorder asset and promote/demote asset	05:04
@tavisto	ok I'm kinda concerned why I'm hearing gun shots at 10pm when it's dark outside and not hunting season	05:04
+perlDreamer	those are the Zope users	05:04
Mech422	pd: nah - zope users just roll back the transaction to cover their tracks	05:07
topsub	any bug known updating between 7.6.27 to 7.6.29?	05:34
+perlDreamer	nope	05:39
+perlDreamer	what's happening, topsub?	05:39
topsub	nothing, i'm 2 behind just wanted to check before i did the upgrade	05:51
topsub	like last time i ran into something thats all	05:51
Mech422	wow - firefox is really not working well with this new demo site	06:01
Mech422	keeps losing all the css/styling on the page	06:01
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Mech422	pd: Story Archive seems to be part of what I want - it does the 'container' and add/edit story stuff... but how would I go about getting it to do the 'archive' part (eg 2009/06/30/blah)	06:13
Mech422	I _think_ what I want is just a workflow that changes the 'url' field of the stories after X amount of time? but I'm not sure if thats the 'wG way' to do it ?	06:14
+perlDreamer	that is what you want	06:23
+perlDreamer	a custom story archiving workflow	06:23
Mech422	ahh..	06:25
Mech422	actually, I probably want that to begin with - sorta a 'permalink' ...	06:25
+perlDreamer	hm	06:25
Mech422	but I don't want to have to change the SC or SA every month	06:26
+perlDreamer	huh?	06:26
+perlDreamer	you lost me there	06:26
+perlDreamer	it will automatically ignore archived posts, and you can derive the new URL "date phrase" from the date inside the story.	06:26
Mech422	well - I don't want to have to create a new 'folder' (/2009/06, /2009/07, etc) every month	06:26
+perlDreamer	we went through this before :)	06:27
+perlDreamer	wG URLs and hierarchy are separate	06:27
Mech422	yeah	06:27
+perlDreamer	and the story archive makes folders for every day that stories are submitted	06:27
+perlDreamer	go into the Asset Manager and look	06:27
Mech422	ahh - I didn't see that	06:27
+perlDreamer	well, you aren't supposed to ;)	06:27
Mech422	I did notice that story's don't ask for a URL when you add them	06:27
+perlDreamer	yes, they work just like a post, or an event, or a wiki page in that way	06:28
+perlDreamer	the url is derived from the title	06:28
Mech422	ahh - I have a june_30_2009 folder in my story archive	06:29
+perlDreamer	yes	06:29
+perlDreamer	and tomorrow there will be july_1_2009 folder	06:29
+perlDreamer	if I remember correctly, the whole folder is archived at once	06:29
+perlDreamer	rather than story by story	06:29
Mech422	Oh! I _can_ navigate to a day directly!	06:30
Mech422	thats the part that was 'missing' - I can use teststory/storyarchive/june_30_2009	06:31
Mech422	except all the css/themeing appears to be missing	06:31
@tavisto	Okay I'm beginning to get a little worried about Mech422 teaching a large session at the wuc	06:32
@tavisto	I hope he figures this stuff out so that he doesn't mess up the keynote	06:32
@tavisto	;)	06:32
+perlDreamer	it's just a folder, Mech422.	06:33
+perlDreamer	it's not meant to be publicly viewable, kind of private for the Archive	06:33
Mech422	I think its a teminalogy thing... when I have 'archive' I think 'moved to permenant storage'...	06:33
@tavisto	just kidding btw.. Mech422, I'm not trying to piss off a vampire	06:33
+perlDreamer	yeah, I mentioned that to rizen	06:33
Mech422	I think story Archive uses it more in the context of 'collection' ?	06:34
+perlDreamer	but we couldn't find a better term	06:34
Mech422	ahh	06:34
+perlDreamer	it didn't pass the spousal test	06:34
+perlDreamer	the archive is the gateway and repository	06:34
Mech422	tavisto: eh - hang out some garlic, and you'll be fine :-)	06:34
+perlDreamer	the topic is the aggregator	06:34
+perlDreamer	and story is the item of value	06:34
@tavisto	perlDreamer is hairy... like a werewolf... I wonder why you guys are getting along so well	06:35
Mech422	but teststory/storyarchive/june_30_2009/Story_1 doesn't work :-(	06:35
Mech422	so I will need to muck about with url field :-(	06:35
Mech422	in that case, its almost easier to use a cs and just set the url field to '/2009/06/30/Story_1' right from the begginging	06:36
Mech422	and skip the whole workflow thing ?	06:36
+perlDreamer	perhaps	06:37
+perlDreamer	but then you have to do all the lead story work and everything else by hand	06:37
Mech422	no, shouldn't the cs 'blog' view show most recent to oldest by default ?	06:38
+perlDreamer	remember that in the cs "blog" is just a template	06:38
+perlDreamer	post ordering is a setting in the CS itself	06:39
Mech422	ahh - ok - well, I'd have to muck around with getting 'more' teaser on the first entry, and 'less' teaser text for older stories	06:39
+perlDreamer	yeah, StoryTopic does that for you automatically	06:39
Mech422	but I think that would actually be simpler then writing a work flow ?	06:40
+perlDreamer	why not just RFE a request for the Story URL to include the date?	06:40
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Mech422	eh - I figured I broke it so I get to keep both halfs ?	06:41
Mech422	I suppose it is a fairly common use case	06:41
Mech422	if it was gonna be an RFE - I think having it accessible via an 'archive url' right from the start would be good - then it could be used as a permalink ?	06:43
+perlDreamer	well, what you're asking for is to have the date put into the url by default	06:43
+perlDreamer	and it will always have the same URL, regardless of being archived or not	06:44
+perlDreamer	it won't change when it is archived, in other words	06:44
Mech422	yeah!	06:44
Mech422	the 'it won't change' part is the big part for us	06:44
+perlDreamer	so if the intention of the date is to make it a permalink, you don't need it	06:45
+perlDreamer	if it's for some other reason, then you might still need it	06:45
Mech422	the date part makes it easy for us to go back and see what happened on 1968/05/13/Mech_Is_Born	06:45
Mech422	we can go to /1968/05/13 and see all the news for that day	06:46
+perlDreamer	no	06:46
+perlDreamer	that url won't exist in the system	06:46
+perlDreamer	march_13_1968 will	06:46
Mech422	may	06:46
Mech422	btw - why use full month names ? it looks a lil 'odd' ?	06:47
Mech422	or is it for i18n - everyone can interpret that format ?	06:47
+perlDreamer	(08:41:23 PM) perlDreamer: it's just a folder, Mech422.	06:47
+perlDreamer	(08:41:41 PM) perlDreamer: it's not meant to be publicly viewable, kind of private for the Archive	06:47
Mech422	LOL - i18n its unambigous sounds better :-P	06:48
Mech422	no mm/dd vs dd/mm issues	06:48
+perlDreamer	that's true	06:48
Mech422	Hmm - storyTopic is dependent upon the 'keywords' field in the story...	06:58
+perlDreamer	yes	06:58
Mech422	so we need to add a 'dummy' keyword to every story to get them to show up in the topic	06:59
Mech422	hmm - thats badly phrased	07:00
+perlDreamer	have you tried putting no keyword in the topic to see what happens?	07:00
Mech422	yeah - nothing displays in the topic	07:00
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Mech422	being able to have seperate 'views' for each topic is cool - but we need to have a 'master' view of all storys too... umm - thats still not a good discription	07:01
Mech422	am I makeing _any_ sense at all ? :-P	07:01
+perlDreamer	maybe the StoryArchive other assets really don't do what you want, like I thought they would	07:01
+perlDreamer	either that, or you need to write more RFEs ;)	07:02
Mech422	Ah Ha! we need a storyTopic that can do a straight reverse chronological listing of all stories! thats a pretty good description	07:02
+perlDreamer	sure, one that pulls all stories, regardless of keyword	07:03
+perlDreamer	which is kind of what the StoryArchive does	07:03
+perlDreamer	without the lead story template variables	07:03
Mech422	the keyword based listing is really cool for other stuff - like setting up 'deppartmetns' or 'areas of interest' .. .but we need the reverse chron. for the front page	07:03
+perlDreamer	the design spec was for CNN-like news	07:04
+perlDreamer	which doesn't have that	07:04
Mech422	right - I was actually using plain StoryArchive before - I just added the topic when you mentioned it	07:04
+perlDreamer	StoryTopic does the lead story template variables, StoryArchive doesn't	07:04
Mech422	I had thought that chaing the story archive template in StoryArchive migth do this ?	07:05
+perlDreamer	no, those variables don't exist in the StoryArchive	07:05
Mech422	well phoeey	07:05
Mech422	dammit - I _want_ to use StoryArchive :-P	07:05
Mech422	looks like some slick code :-)	07:05
* perlDreamer is biased		07:06
@tavisto	tavisto still unhappy that PerlDreamer did not acknowledge his werewolf vs vampire joke	07:07
Mech422	maybe I could tear apart the StoryTopic template and get it to grok story's with no keywords	07:07
* perlDreamer intends to bite tavisto net time we meet		07:07
+perlDreamer	prepare to join the pack, brother	07:07
@tavisto	tavisto shows his teeth Sorry bro, I'm on the other team	07:08
+perlDreamer	you can be a hybrid lycan	07:08
@tavisto	oh great... so I gotta buy a $15,000 battery after I'm midway through my life	07:08
Mech422	I take it underworld was big around the pb offices ?	07:09
@tavisto	son of ah.. this sucks	07:09
@tavisto	anything sci-fi, fantasy, etc... pretty much is.. Lots of geeks and nerds roaming around PB	07:09
Mech422	hmm - you can't limit a storyTopic to just 1 keyword or a specific group of keywords ? so I can't have a 'sports' storyTopic and a 'tech' storyTopic ?	07:11
Mech422	tavisto: heh - my eq2 addiction is finally showing signs of petering off	07:12
+perlDreamer	if you have a story with keywords sports and tech, it would show up in both topics	07:12
+perlDreamer	otherwise, you only get stories with the topic's keyword in it	07:12
@tavisto	eq2 is still going?	07:13
@tavisto	wow	07:13
@tavisto	that's like telling me you are still playing Dark Ages of Camelot online	07:13
Mech422	perlDreamer: umm - I can't find where to ...oh its on the metadata tab	07:13
+perlDreamer	:)	07:13
@tavisto	That's like telling me you are running WebGUI 4 right now	07:13
+perlDreamer	which means that if there's no keyword in the topic, you get all stories?	07:13
+perlDreamer	isn't that what you wanted?	07:14
Mech422	all stories _with_ a keyword	07:14
Mech422	tavisto: actually - eq1 is still going... and sony just announced expansions for both eq1 and eq	07:14
Mech422	err..eq1 and eq2	07:14
Mech422	we could get around keywords just by forcing the clerk to input a dummy 'story' keyword for each story	07:15
+perlDreamer	sure, or add it to your custom commit workflow	07:15
+perlDreamer	or, change the edit form to hardcode it	07:16
+perlDreamer	since that's templatable, too	07:16
Mech422	ahh - changing the edit form would prolly be the path of least resistance	07:16
+perlDreamer	set the keywords to be hidden in the form and set to "mandatoryKeywordBecausePerlDreamerIsANazi"	07:16
Mech422	ROFL	07:16
@tavisto	wow, you gotta be kidding me	07:16
@tavisto	although I think Ultima Online is still going somehow	07:16
@tavisto	that was and is still my favorite game. That's how Rizen and I met actually	07:17
Mech422	yeah - I think the ultima server code is out in the wild	07:17
Mech422	but eq is on its 10 year anniversary and eq2 is on its fifth I think	07:17
@tavisto	oh yeah it's been for years. We ran our own server and that's really how Rizen and I met. We were both GMs on the server	07:17
@tavisto	insane.	07:18
Mech422	I'm looking forward to one called earthrise	07:18
Mech422	I'm getting pretty annoyed with class based games	07:18
Mech422	especially for crafting	07:18
Mech422	use based or point based seems the way to go	07:19
@tavisto	yeah I love MMORPGs and used to play, get burned out, then sell my accounts	07:21
@tavisto	but I just dont have the time. It's 12:21 right now and I'm sending email	07:21
Mech422	I'm like that with most stuff - compulsive about it for 6 months, then hang it up	07:21
@tavisto	Ive been on the computer today since 10am, except for 45 minutes on a treadmill, changing some sprinklers in my yard, and going to get subway. What a great day.	07:21
Mech422	that's why contracting was always so much fun - 6 months then off to a new challenge	07:21
@tavisto	yep, that's true.	07:22
Mech422	lol - thats a short day for me :-P	07:22
Mech422	but I have no life :-P	07:22
Mech422	my friends all moved out of silicon valley years ago	07:22
Mech422	I'm like the last hold out :-P	07:23
@tavisto	yeah they apparently didn't want to pay the outrageous taxes eh	07:23
Mech422	nah - they just couldn't find new jobs paying $125K+	07:23
Mech422	lots of people around here went from 90+ year to 50 year	07:24
@tavisto	ouch	07:24
Mech422	yeah - middle management of course	07:24
Mech422	but also techies	07:24
Mech422	lots of php/perl/python people	07:24
Mech422	.net and java seemed to stay pretty much the same though	07:24
Mech422	which is surprising considering how over payed java guys are	07:24
@tavisto	So are you liking WebGUI as you learn more about it? And are you able to use it in more of your projects? Or do you still find Plone to be a better system for you?	07:25
Mech422	heh - some pretty subjective things there	07:25
@tavisto	I'm curious since you are fairly new and have been playing with WebGUI awhile	07:25
Mech422	the _biggest_ impression I get is that I'm the first 'new' webgui 'developer' in a long time	07:25
Mech422	there seems to be a big gap in between 'user docs' and 'god mode'...	07:26
@tavisto	mmmm... well atleast in IRC you are	07:26
Mech422	like everyone that works on webgui either is an end user, or already knows it inside and out	07:26
Mech422	LOL	07:26
@tavisto	I actually talk to quite a few new peeps that download it and aren't active in the community.. but mod stuff to their own needs	07:26
@tavisto	of course... we only hear from people like that if they need support contracts, or want to purchase something. :)	07:27
Mech422	wow - I'm slacking then :-P	07:27
@tavisto	nope, you have more of an interest in being active in the community... which is a great thing	07:27
Mech422	no I mean on learning webgui	07:27
Mech422	even with the time I spend working with it - I don't really feel I 'understand' it..	07:28
Mech422	but then again - it was the same with plone at first too	07:28
Mech422	thats just part of workign with a large system	07:28
@tavisto	yeah, I guess it is. I've been working with it since we started so I kinda pieced it together as we went	07:29
@tavisto	but I'm also not a dev	07:29
Mech422	:-)	07:30
Mech422	its definately got a learning curve	07:30
elnino	wegui has a different philosophy than anything eslse I've seen	07:30
elnino	that was my learning curve	07:30
Mech422	elnino: oh? in what way ?	07:31
@tavisto	elnino is a developer	07:31
@tavisto	I never knew it until one day when we started talking more in here	07:31
Mech422	heh - its the quiet ones ya gotta watch ;-P	07:31
elnino	I'm not sure how to respond.	07:32
elnino	I dont' develop for pb.	07:32
Mech422	I'm just curious as to what difference you noticed ?	07:32
@tavisto	no, I'm saying in general though	07:32
elnino	but I have 15 years.	07:32
elnino	philosophy in gui, not in programming. Tho I'm really impressed with the programming once I got into that part.	07:34
elnino	and I really don't have many things to compare webgui to, I started with mambo, joomla, asp.net. I dont' even know where to start on the differences there.	07:34
Mech422	heh - having the buttons on the 'wrong' sides of the forms thru me at first... :-P	07:35
elnino	those are the only other cms's I'ved worked with	07:35
Mech422	I'll be interested to see how things go as I spend more time with it	07:36
@tavisto	That's because they were on the 'right' side	07:36
Mech422	yeah - having them so you don't have to scroll is more logical - though not what you generally encounter	07:36
Mech422	I guess every large system has a 'mindset' you have to get into...	07:38
+perlDreamer	very true	07:38
Mech422	zope/plone are obvious about it - "the zen of zope" "zope zen" etc etc	07:38
Mech422	but its just a fact of life	07:39
+perlDreamer	Mech422, just think like a smiling, purple octopus	07:40
+perlDreamer	it'll all be fine	07:40
+perlDreamer	as long as Cthulu doesn't get jealous that we're tripping on his vibe	07:40
Mech422	hehe	07:40
Mech422	well my next tasks will be learning how to grab content from other 'parts' of the site	07:40
+perlDreamer	shortcuts and snippets	07:41
Mech422	like reaching into a storyArchive and listing its contents or pulling blog entries	07:41
Mech422	ahh -but how do you actually reference the cotent and 'grab' it ?	07:41
Mech422	$this->somecontent.getValue() ?	07:41
+perlDreamer	are you talking codewise, or template wise?	07:41
Mech422	prolly start in templates - should be simpler right ?	07:42
+perlDreamer	simpler, but more limited	07:42
+perlDreamer	because you're only given a particular set of variables	07:43
+perlDreamer	and no programming control	07:43
+perlDreamer	you could switch to Template::Toolkit	07:43
Mech422	no looping ? say I wanted to make my top ten list ?	07:43
+perlDreamer	if you want to make it out of things that you are given, that's fine	07:44
Mech422	I can't setup a 10 item loop in a template ?	07:44
+perlDreamer	sure you can	07:44
Mech422	ahh	07:44
+perlDreamer	but only if that template has a loop	07:44
Mech422	umm - aren't I creating the template? can't I just give it a loop?	07:44
+perlDreamer	the template can work on a given set of variables	07:44
+perlDreamer	for example, go to your dev site, and turn on admin mode	07:45
Mech422	already on :-)	07:45
+perlDreamer	from the admin console, click on the Life Saver icon for Help	07:45
+perlDreamer	Find the Article template	07:45
+perlDreamer	and click on that link	07:45
+perlDreamer	that is a complete list of all template variables that an article template can use	07:45
Mech422	ok - but you said 'no programming control' - I took that to mean 'no looping, no conditionals' ?	07:46
+perlDreamer	no, the templating engine supports both of those	07:47
+perlDreamer	but, you cannot give the template an object and allow the template designer to call arbitrary methods on it	07:47
Mech422	ahh - ok, thats pretty common	07:47
+perlDreamer	you can do that in Template::Toolkit	07:48
+perlDreamer	but WebGUI still won't pass you the objects	07:48
+perlDreamer	just the same regular old variables in TT syntax instead of HTML::Template syntax	07:48
Mech422	yeah - plone has the concept of 'restricted' methods	07:49
Mech422	you have to 'flag' methods as web accessible	07:49
Mech422	(believe it or not - a method with no comment can't be hit from the web :-P )	07:50
+perlDreamer	we have that in webgui as well, although a little differently	07:50
+perlDreamer	only subs that start with www_ are allowed to be called by the content engine	07:50
Mech422	but how do you 'traverse' the site to find 'objects' (atoms? pages?)	07:51
+perlDreamer	from the template, or from the content engine?	07:51
Mech422	ahh - that makes more sense then the stupid comment thing - that bit me many a time	07:51
Mech422	from a template or snippet ?	07:51
+perlDreamer	from the template, you are in a small, isolated world	07:51
Mech422	say I wanted a 'steves recent blogs' box that listed my last 5 blog entries - that I could put all over my site (ie in different locations)	07:52
+perlDreamer	in that case, I would make a shortcut of the blog with a custom template that only listed 5 things	07:52
+perlDreamer	or, I'd use a syndicated content asset	07:52
Mech422	Hmm...	07:53
+perlDreamer	if you want it all over your site, then you mark it as a package so that it can be deployed multiple times on the site	07:53
+perlDreamer	so it's done at the Asset level, not at the template level	07:53
Mech422	and what if it wasn't a 'static' resource - like say a 'today in history' box	07:53
Mech422	where you had a folder for every day of the year with fun facts about that day	07:54
+perlDreamer	okay	07:54
+perlDreamer	and the folder is full of snippets?	07:54
Mech422	err..ok...	07:54
Mech422	snippets text whatever	07:54
+perlDreamer	and you want to pull one snippet out and display it on some page?	07:55
Mech422	how do you dynamically get a reference to a particular day (folder) and list its contents ?	07:55
+perlDreamer	AssetProxy macro	07:55
Mech422	ahh	07:55
+perlDreamer	use the Date macro to build the date part of the URL	07:55
@tavisto	there is a ^RandomAssetProxy macro too if you want to pull random assets	07:55
+perlDreamer	or, if it was a SQL table, you could use the SQL macro to do it	07:55
@tavisto	you can also use the advertising engine to serve up random images if that's what you want to do	07:56
Mech422	I think AssetProxy would be the next thing for me to read up on then..	07:56
+perlDreamer	Mech422, this is what I recommend	07:56
+perlDreamer	Read the WebGUI primer from top to bottom, twice	07:56
+perlDreamer	then read the whole Macro book	07:56
Mech422	though I think I'm gonna have a lot of 'unlearning' to do	07:57
+perlDreamer	Are you afraid?	07:57
+perlDreamer	You may be too old to undergo the training	07:57
+perlDreamer	I have been teaching WebGUI newbies for 300 years	07:57
Mech422	afraid - no ? looking forward to it ? no ? :-P	07:57
@tavisto	318 years.. and you are getting old and forgetful now	07:57
Mech422	http://www.plyonshq.com <- this is the sort of thing I look forward too...	07:57
+perlDreamer	Sorry, 'www.plyonshq.com' does not exist or is not available.	07:58
Mech422	you might want to take a look - docs are decent but not great ... the core is 'small is beautiful' :-)	07:58
Mech422	crap - sorry its http://www.pylonshq.com	07:58
Mech422	mimimalist web framework with numerous interchangable parts	07:59
@tavisto	ooooh nice	08:00
@tavisto	Hao just posted to staff blog	08:00
Mech422	no where near the functionality the wG offers - its more for web apps then cms	08:00
@tavisto	talking about the possibility of 1-page checkout in wG ecommerce	08:00
@tavisto	wahoo!	08:00
@tavisto	perldreamer, you and I have been interested in that since the beginning	08:01
@tavisto	topsub did that awhile back on his own and it was pretty slick	08:01
+perlDreamer	nice	08:01
elnino	what is http://www.cmsinfo.org supposed to be about? there is a blog aobut webgui, but it's really old.	08:01
@tavisto	looks like they covered WebGUI announcements for awhile	08:03
+perlDreamer	then we changed the RSS url out from underneath them	08:04
+perlDreamer	twice	08:04
Mech422	is Aegir - that became the Asgard cms didn't it ?	08:04
@tavisto	night all	08:04
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Mech422	nite tavis!	08:04
elnino	bye	08:04
Mech422	lol -midguard - I haven't looked at htat in years...	08:05
Mech422	pd: anyway - seems like I'll have a bunch of 'unlearning' to do - in plone you 'traverse' (navigate) to the object, and in wG it seems you bring the object to you (via shortcuts,proxy,etc)	08:06
+perlDreamer	that's correct	08:07
elnino	does anyone know ehab?	08:09
+perlDreamer	he watches TBB, and might monitor the dev forum	08:10
elnino	what's TBB	08:10
+perlDreamer	The Black Blog	08:10
elnino	does he log in here?	08:10
+perlDreamer	never seen him in here	08:10
elnino	k.	08:11
Mech422	Should a storyArchive be inside a pageLayout ?	08:11
elnino	i'm sleepy. I'm going... fast...	08:11
elnino	bye	08:11
Mech422	bye elnino!	08:11
+perlDreamer	'night, elnino	08:11
elnino	later!	08:11
+perlDreamer	Mech422, it can part of a page layout if you wish	08:11
+perlDreamer	or it can work standalone	08:12
Mech422	I'm just trying to figure out why my css and stuff keeps dissappearing	08:12
Mech422	but its doing it on the admin side too - and I didn't touch any of those templates	08:12
Mech422	its happening on both ff and opera	08:12
Mech422	so prolly not a browser cache thing	08:12
+perlDreamer	probably not	08:12
+perlDreamer	is IE doing it, too?	08:13
Mech422	wtf? uggh - I hate lil annoyances :-P	08:13
Mech422	umm - lemme check	08:13
Mech422	blah - my keyboard is hosed in windows	08:15
Mech422	vista does NOT seem to like this ms usb keyboard :-P lemme check on the other machine	08:15
Mech422	ok - yes, it does it in IE to	08:18
+perlDreamer	what do you do to make the CSS and stuff disappear?	08:18
Mech422	its prolly something to do with giving the site a name but using numeric ip to access it	08:19
Mech422	editing a story in the story archive , click 'save', then click 'back to site' and you get back to the storyarchive with missing css	08:19
Mech422	but it happens all over the place, so I'm assuming its a stupid configuration thing on my side	08:19
+perlDreamer	is your story archive inside of a page layout?	08:19
Mech422	yeah - thats why I asked	08:20
+perlDreamer	okay, that sounds like an asset focus issue	08:20
+perlDreamer	try this	08:20
+perlDreamer	go back to your dev site's home page	08:20
+perlDreamer	then go to the page with the archive on it	08:20
+perlDreamer	then click on add page	08:20
+perlDreamer	and watch the url	08:20
+perlDreamer	the URL is different, you're actually looking at a different "page"	08:21
+perlDreamer	that page is made by the _archive_, not the page layout	08:21
+perlDreamer	so if the archive and layout have different styles, then they will look different	08:21
Mech422	add page ? you mean add page layout or add story ?	08:22
+perlDreamer	add story, sorry	08:22
Mech422	ok - with you so far	08:23
Mech422	buth when I go 'back to site' - shouldn't I get my stuff back ?	08:23
+perlDreamer	only if it takes you back to the layout instead of the archive	08:23
* perlDreamer suspects it's taking you to the archive		08:23
Mech422	your right	08:23
Mech422	ok - so thats that	08:23
+perlDreamer	to fix that, edit the style and set it to use the same style template as the page layout	08:24
Mech422	different - but still no styling	08:26
+perlDreamer	do you have CSS in the page layout template itself?	08:26
+perlDreamer	because the Archive would not get that unless it was rendered inside the layout	08:27
Mech422	its in the source	08:27
+perlDreamer	source?	08:27
Mech422	lemme try firebug - its prolly just not getting the css due to name vs. ip crap - document source has css file	08:27
Mech422	(references css file rather)	08:27
+perlDreamer	okay	08:28
Mech422	actually, it says it got the css file	08:31
Mech422	I'll worry about that later - its gotta be something silly as it works	08:32
Mech422	as it works most of the time	08:33
Mech422	huh - the front page gives 302 'found' messagges but when its 'broken' the css comes back as 304 'not changed' ?	08:34
Mech422	not sure if thats significant	08:34
Mech422	ok - gonna haul my lazy butt out for a walk..	08:40
Mech422	g'nite pd!	08:40
+perlDreamer	later, Mech422	08:42
* perlDreamer is heading to bed		08:42
+perlDreamer	my laptop is so hot I can smell solder	08:43
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+bartjol	it's admin!	16:17
mech422	Umm - I thought I was Steve! ? :-P	16:21
mech422	And how is Mr. bartjol this fine morning ?	16:21
+bartjol	well, mainly warm	16:22
mech422	oh? warm as in nice weather, or warm as in building a/c broke and your surrounded by heat generating pc's ?	16:22
+bartjol	mainly nice weather	16:23
+bartjol	so that's ok	16:23
mech422	ahh yes, much nicer then the too many pc's thing :-)	16:24
mech422	I'm getting rather annoyed, as something seems to be slightly off with my new vista64 based desktop	16:24
+bartjol	only 6 in this room	16:24
mech422	I'm running debian in VirtualBox on it, and its sorta 'wierd'... like now, kde isn't showing desktop previews correctly	16:25
+bartjol	and hoping that ff3.5 really is better	16:25
mech422	ohh - donna got it yesterday - she seemed to like it ok - no complaints but no jumping for joy either	16:26
+bartjol	mm	16:26
+bartjol	well, I had problems lately with 3.0.11 crashing	16:26
+bartjol	and eating 500+ MB of mem	16:26
mech422	I'm thinking it might be the seagate 1.5TB drives	16:27
mech422	I read there was a lot of problems with the early versions - and the drive the vm image is on sorta 'clicks' on a regular basis - like the head is stepping all the way in/out	16:27
+bartjol	well, I can't help you on this one	16:29
mech422	heh - I'm looking at the configuration... I seem to recall there was a check box somewhere that controled the desktop preview thingy in the pager	16:30
mech422	ahh - somehow 'window thumbnails' got turned off...	16:34
mech422	bartjol: do you happen to do much js ?	16:35
+bartjol	alas	16:35
+bartjol	but I can always try	16:36
mech422	heh - I thought I might read up on it a bit - I was just curious if you had any recommendations for toolkits..	16:36
mech422	wG uses YUI, plone uses JQuery, then there's dojo, and prototype...	16:37
+bartjol	well http://www.ja-sig.org/wiki/display/UP3/Javascript+Toolkit+Comparison	16:37
mech422	Oh very cool!	16:37
mech422	thanks :-)	16:37
+bartjol	google is my friend	16:38
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mech422	heh - forgot about mochikit	16:38
SquOnk	Hi everyone	16:38
SquOnk	Updated 7.6.29 packages for Debian in my repo.	16:39
SquOnk	Hopefully, the 7.6.30 package will have automatic database maintenance.	16:39
+perlmonkey2	This is incredible. When I load an admin page I'm working on in FF3.5b4, I can't start up firebug and none of my FF menu bars are clickable.	17:03
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+perlmonkey2	Me thinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark	17:07
+perlmonkey2	and by Denmark I mean Firefox.	17:07
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mech422	Hmm - MS is supporting jquery ? didn't know that	17:14
mech422	crud konqui crashed	17:14
mech422	dammit!	17:14
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@tavisto	so mech422, have you mastered WebGUI in the last 6-8 hours?	17:23
SquOnk	lol	17:24
* SquOnk is teaching one of his minions how to create a WebGUI style		17:25
SquOnk	We're deploying WebGUI for the Venezuelan Ministry of Economy and Finances.	17:26
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SquOnk	Once it's online, we'll probably get permission to list it in webgui.org	17:26
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+bartjol	aaah , minions roasted with garlic	17:36
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+bartjol	perlmonkey2: what is wrong with ff today	17:45
+bartjol	I find it rather refreshing after 3.0.11	17:45
+bartjol	and firebug works ok for me	17:47
+bartjol	maybe I have a superior OS originating from the Redmond area	17:48
+perlmonkey2	bartjol: no idea. The problem was a simple admin panel screen with a select list. Yesterday I thought the selectList lib was broken when the default item wasn't being selected. Turns out Firefox just wasn't highlighting it. That magically resolved itself after several FF restarts.	17:56
daviddelikat	holy cow, firefox footprint doubled...!!!	17:57
+perlmonkey2	Then today it was doing the same thing only Firebug wouldn't start and the menu bar was unresponsive (although I could still click on links and use the web pages and tabs).	17:57
+perlmonkey2	But after killing it 5 or so times it started working again.	17:57
@Haarg	what version of firebug?	17:57
+bartjol	the beta	17:57
+perlmonkey2	1.4.0b3	17:57
+perlmonkey2	and I'm on FF3.5b4	17:58
+perlmonkey2	If this keeps up I'll install a temporary local of the new release. But I like to stay in tune with the repo.	17:58
+bartjol	ah the morning ritual of restarting a browser 5 times with a cup of coffee	17:59
+perlmonkey2	hah, if only. More like restart it, click on page, look at logs, try to get firebug to do more than load unactivated panels. 'killall firefox' repeat.	17:59
+bartjol	what kinnd of os are you running>	18:00
+perlmonkey2	starting to lose faith in Gecko and starting to get mighty curious about Webkit.	18:01
+perlmonkey2	Fedora 11	18:01
+bartjol	no one is running that here	18:01
+bartjol	:(	18:01
+perlmonkey2	Which otherwise has been a dream. Every issue I've ever had with Linux on this laptop has been resolved with things looking sharp and behaving beautifully.	18:01
@Haarg	sounds like you problems are more firebug related than gecko	18:01
+perlmonkey2	Haarg: even with the menu bar becoming unresponsive?	18:02
+perlmonkey2	next time it repeats I'll disable firebug and see if that resolves it.	18:02
@Haarg	from what i've heard firefox works significantly worse on linux though	18:02
@Haarg	than either windows or mac	18:02
+perlmonkey2	Haarg: no idea. I used Opera on Mac and haven't used windows in...well, half a decade.	18:03
daviddelikat	so, I'm reading all this about ff3.5; I go and upgrade, before upgrade I have firefox at 35M RAM after I upgrade its at 101M! is this supposed to be better?	18:03
+perlmonkey2	bartjol what do people run there? Windows and Ubuntu?	18:04
+bartjol	and some apple like stuff	18:04
+bartjol	not sure about ubuntu	18:04
+bartjol	oh, yeah, we have that	18:04
+perlmonkey2	daviddelikat: I've never seen 35MB level usage. I've always been somewhere around 100MB with FF.	18:05
+bartjol	daviddelikat: for me it went down from 500 MB to 240 MB	18:05
daviddelikat	wow! thats impressive	18:05
+bartjol	but I use a lot of tabs	18:05
daviddelikat	I wonder what I'm doing ...	18:05
+bartjol	yeah	18:05
+bartjol	well I think 400 was average	18:05
daviddelikat	I use tabs for ~everything~	18:05
+bartjol	at 500 it began to crash	18:06
daviddelikat	but I've got the same 4 tabs now that I had befpre I started...	18:06
+bartjol	mmm	18:06
+bartjol	strange	18:06
+perlmonkey2	bartjol oh, wish me luck. You asked about what I used which made me remember that compiz used to lock up my onboard video card. So I just now started it for the first time in years. Here's to hoping I can get flashy wizbang without annoying lockups :D	18:06
+bartjol	maybe a higher base amount, but less per tab	18:06
daviddelikat	I guess I'm not done looking, I'll have to tryt leaving some JS runnign over night and see what happens	18:06
+bartjol	I wish you luck perlmonkey2	18:06
+perlmonkey2	bartjol you are a good fellow	18:07
+perlmonkey2	:P	18:07
+bartjol	don't stick out your tongue at me! ;)	18:07
@tavisto	bartjol, I have a picture of gooey on his own boat	18:09
@tavisto	a very large sailboat (for him)	18:09
@tavisto	I'll let you know once I put it in the gooey on the go gallery	18:09
+bartjol	tavisto: ah, cool, more gooeys on boats	18:11
+bartjol	perlmonkey2: did it work?	18:12
+perlmonkey2	bartjol still here without lockups enjoying my compiz wizbang	18:15
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+perlmonkey2	bartjol I mean not sure whom bartjol is	18:17
+perlmonkey2	hmm, not sure why I keep getting lower case b's	18:17
+bartjol	no?	18:17
+bartjol	I am me	18:18
+perlmonkey2	Bartjol my tab complete keeps using the lower case.	18:18
+perlmonkey2	well that is weird, the user list only shows a single Bartjol but tab complete thinks there are two.	18:18
+bartjol	ah	18:18
+bartjol	strange	18:19
+bartjol	I am the good part of the twin	18:19
* perlmonkey2 is having many strange technical difficulties today, perhaps he should embrace ludditism.		18:19
-!- bartjol is now known as BartJol		18:20
+BartJol	and now?	18:20
+perlmonkey2	BartJol: ah, there we go	18:21
+perlmonkey2	on a single BartJol for my autocomplete :)	18:22
+perlmonkey2	s/on/only/	18:22
+BartJol	something strange happened to my nick	18:22
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mech422	ahh! its not my computer	18:47
mech422	jqueryvsmootools.com crashes konqui!	18:47
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mech422	heh - thought I had bad disk or bad mem for a bit there	18:48
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@tavisto	it's the koolaid that you spilled on your laptop last week	19:06
mech422	tavisto: hehe - att least I didn't drink da kool-aid ba dum bum	19:11
mech422	:-)	19:11
@tavisto	wait.. at&t?	19:11
@tavisto	are you calling me out for getting the new iPhone 3GS 32GB Black superphone?	19:12
@preaction	DA SUPAPHONE!	19:12
@tavisto	tavisto draws his weapon	19:12
mech422	actually, I wonder how many tech people use the term 'drink the kool aid' and are too young to know where it comes from ?	19:12
@tavisto	let's get him preaction!	19:12
mech422	iphone? your joking right ?	19:12
@preaction	it was ruby ridge, right?	19:12
@tavisto	well I thought it makes reference to being in a cult.. Dave Ramsey also says it all the time	19:12
+perlmonkey2	hahaha	19:12
+perlmonkey2	preaction++	19:12
@tavisto	aha it is	19:13
mech422	jonestown - mass suicide	19:13
@preaction	the koolaide was laced with cyanide or arsenic or something	19:13
@tavisto	yep	19:13
mech422	women and children included	19:13
@tavisto	except the founder didnt drink right?	19:13
+perlmonkey2	don't forget the armed thugs shooting people who backed out.	19:13
mech422	rather macrabre when you think about how its used now	19:13
@preaction	it was cherry-flavored, if i remember ;)	19:13
mech422	anyway - on to cheerier stuff like iphone bashing :-)	19:13
@tavisto	preaction is immune to cyanide so he's still doing pretty good after drinking it... except for those blackouts	19:13
mech422	actualy, I hear the iphone is great as long as you don't need to make phone calls .... :-P	19:14
@tavisto	the iPhone is the alpha and omega of mainstream phone technology	19:14
@tavisto	I have 4-5 bars in most places around me	19:14
+perlmonkey2	ahem Android.	19:14
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - my buddy has a g1 and it sounds awesome	19:14
mech422	too bad the new android htc handset is like $650 unlocked :-(	19:15
@tavisto	Actually, I will admit that the Samsung Jet definitely w00ps all over the petty iPhone, Palm, Android debates	19:15
@tavisto	800mhz chip, 2GB of onboard ram, and an organic LED display that requires no backlighting and 66% less power usage	19:15
mech422	samsung jet ? gotta google	19:15
@tavisto	do it right now... it's amazing	19:15
@tavisto	I knew they were using OLED in TVs now.. But not on a cell	19:15
+perlmonkey2	mech422: yep, I loves my G1. looooves it.	19:17
+perlmonkey2	mech422: the new HTC is hardly an improvement on the G1. I really dig physical keyboards.	19:17
mech422	perlmonkey2: you has one ? bastich :-P I just got my BB last year so I'm not trading in for a while	19:17
+perlmonkey2	espeically a nice largish one like the G1's.	19:17
mech422	yeah - my fingers are too fat for the BB keyboard	19:18
+perlmonkey2	I can type about 20WPM on the G1, which when I'm in a terminal means I can almost code.	19:18
mech422	but it does a good job with _displaying_ stuff - emails, web pages, word docs - all are pretty well done	19:18
+perlmonkey2	but certainly fine for sysadmin work.	19:18
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mech422	gah - the ssh client for my BB is lame	19:19
+perlmonkey2	and the SDK with Eclipse is just tops. Best I've used for hardware dev'ing.	19:19
mech422	it's a free one that switches to an input box when you enter commands	19:19
+perlmonkey2	mech422: there are tons of term apps for Android, but connectbot is great. Supports PKI which is the only way I allow in to my servers.	19:19
mech422	supposedly the commercial one is better, but I don't do enough ssh'ing on the phone to spend $$	19:20
mech422	let me check out this samsung thingy...	19:20
mech422	jet.samsungmobile.com is fuxored	19:22
+perlmonkey2	tavisto: You have the Kindle App yet. That almost got me to buy an iphone.	19:23
mech422	ok - what good is a google cache that doesn't come up when the real site is down ?	19:24
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mech422	tv out on a cell phone ??	19:28
@tavisto	nope, don't read enough right now perlMonkey2	19:38
@tavisto	but I fly a ton and am very happy with iTunes and the apps available. That really sells the phone for me.. And the fact that PB is pure mac based :)	19:38
@tavisto	I should say the content available on iTunes (movies, tv shows, music, etc...)	19:39
@tavisto	I was a diehard blackberry user until one day I was on a plane going to LA and I am sitting there bored and I see a teenage punk with an iPhone watching movies... and I'm like... this blackberry is worthless except for sending email	19:40
@preaction	heh	19:41
@preaction	dont' forget games!	19:41
@tavisto	but of course... preaction... always completing my sentences	19:42
@tavisto	and that's why I think preaction is	19:42
mech422	umm - and for making phone calls ?	19:42
mech422	I mean, it _is_ a phone	19:42
mech422	:-P	19:42
mech422	or not, in the iphone case	19:43
@preaction	i didn't want an iphone until my friends got one and kept playing games and fun applications	19:43
* mech422 ducks		19:43
@preaction	pfft, we're BEYOND phones now	19:43
@preaction	this is a Phone++	19:43
@tavisto	I'm on it all day long.. no problems with connectivity for me.. I hear San Fran is still rough	19:43
@preaction	we've evolved past the need for phones	19:43
mech422	ROFL - my phone is so cool, it won't even _talk_ to a voice network :-P	19:43
@tavisto	but you can pick 1000 areas where verizon, or sprint sux too	19:43
@tavisto	this whole "verizon better than at&t" is a joke because Verizon can say that all day..... since they don't have the 7 million iPhone datamongers on their network eating up the data	19:44
@tavisto	until they have that... and can show their network is better... it's just bs	19:44
mech422	funny - my client in LA claims his iphone drops so many calls he has to carry his old (tmobile?) phone too	19:44
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@tavisto	65% of mobile data traffic on the web is from iPhone users. That's incredible!	19:44
+perlmonkey2	I had no problems at all with TMobile/G1 in San Fran or San Jose.	19:45
+perlmonkey2	3g everywhere.	19:45
@tavisto	mech422 I have friends that say that too. Mostly on the 3G phone version	19:45
mech422	not really - 'mobile data traffic' - thats what - iphone, treos (sooo last year :-P), bb's (all biz, no video here!), and android ?	19:45
@tavisto	I think that 3G phone had major hardware issues.. Although the original iPhone (which Rizen and I had) never had any major problems. Of course.. we also didn't have the 3G interference	19:46
+perlmonkey2	and who talks on a phone anymore except to their grandparents. It's either text or IM or social apps for communicating.	19:46
mech422	yeah - he's had his awhile, so it's not the latest and greatest iphone	19:46
@tavisto	I think the 3G version was junk and that's why I didn't upgrade. Especially since I live in Kalamazoo, MI and we don't have 3G yet... tavisto shakes his head in frustration	19:47
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - I can't believe people actually like SMS... typing on those stupid lil keyboards	19:47
+perlmonkey2	mech422: my G1 has a nice big fat keyboard. But even on a small numeral pad, texting takes a few seconds to send a message when calling takes minutes and social formalities to complete the message.	19:48
mech422	LOL - we just got a palm pre flyer in the mail - talk about timing :-P	19:48
mech422	perlmonkey2: thats the second time I've heard the 'talking takes too long' - you guys must all be too polite... speech is still the highest 'bandwidth' medium the phones offer	19:49
mech422	I can't imagine trying to 'say' anything remotely complex via SMS	19:49
+perlmonkey2	mech422: that is highly doubtful. what is an SMS, 512Bytes?	19:50
@preaction	less, 212	19:50
mech422	how fast can you diagnose a problem via sms and how fast via voice ?	19:50
mech422	voice (speech) imparts the most info in the shortest time - hence highest bandwidth	19:50
+perlmonkey2	mech422: say you want to give someong a timing or location update or just some status update. 5 seconds of typing on a keyboard and you're done. You'd still be waiting for the phone to start ringing for voice.	19:50
mech422	if all you do is trivia...	19:51
mech422	but I don't do a lot of that - I want to _communicate_	19:51
mech422	exchange ideas -not just 'send' but 'recieve'	19:51
mech422	plus tmobile can 'lose' SMS messages for hours when the network is busy	19:51
+perlmonkey2	well if I'm discussing projects or design issues, I prefer IM. It is logged and you have time to compose your thoughts correctly when responding.	19:51
mech422	perlmonkey2: I could see that over SMS - but you prefer to type rather then say use skype ?	19:52
+perlmonkey2	mech422: lose sms messages? is that when you don't have a data connection, cause the true sms protocol of a voice sideband is almost never used anymore.	19:52
+perlmonkey2	mech422: absolutey	19:53
+perlmonkey2	I'd prefer some computer IM discussion for project discussions.	19:53
mech422	wow	19:53
+perlmonkey2	voice isn't logged and you get a situation where "so and so said X and it didn't happen like my expectations said so.".	19:53
+perlmonkey2	too much room for misinterpretation and misundersstandings.	19:54
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - I don't generally have to 'prove' who said what.. and I find speech faster and more expressive	19:54
mech422	perlmonkey2: well, text messages have no guarantee on delivery time - strictly 'best effort' - I've recieved a few recently that where hours in transit	19:55
+perlmonkey2	speechis faster and more expressive. I just want everything logged :D	19:55
mech422	perlmonkey2: tape recorder ?	19:55
mech422	:-P	19:55
+perlmonkey2	yeah, double check their location for wire tapping laws :P	19:55
+perlmonkey2	but really, if a voice conversation is warranted, I make the effort for a face-to-face.	19:56
mech422	just say "I'm recording this cuz your boss is cheap and has a short memory and loves scope creep " :-P	19:56
+perlmonkey2	heh	19:56
+perlmonkey2	Plus there's hardly a place in the country where I don't have friends, so I don't mind traveling to see customers.	19:57
mech422	yeah - face to face seems to have fallen out of favor in this digital world :-)	19:57
+perlmonkey2	nothing more fun than sitting together in a conference room with a pot of coffee and scraps of paper and brain storming for hours. Love that.	19:58
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mech422	Awesome idea!	20:05
mech422	put that aethism to work!	20:06
mech422	and sucker some rich holier-then-thou's while yer at it !	20:06
mech422	oh sorry - wrong channel	20:09
mech422	I was referencing this: http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/	20:09
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - and don't forget the white board	20:11
mech422	90% fumes, and the 10% ink always ends up on your hand or shirt :-P	20:11
daviddelikat	mech422: that is hilarious! kind of like the cryogenics of the 70's	20:13
daviddelikat	perhaps we can make a new service for suckers... we promise that if you keep sending up money we will see to it that whatever happens we will do somehting for you someday...	20:15
mech422	daviddelikat: maybe water your plants after the rapture ?	20:16
daviddelikat	sounds good...	20:16
mech422	daviddelikat: collect your mail ?	20:16
daviddelikat	cancel your magazine subscriptions	20:16
mech422	LOL	20:16
daviddelikat	sell your house	20:16
mech422	I wonder if they actually have any clients ?	20:17
daviddelikat	i dont know but hteir order form doesn't match their front page	20:17
mech422	I wonder the same thing whenever I get a pyramid scheme or nigerian prince email...	20:17
daviddelikat	order form says 1 pet for $110 front page says 2	20:17
daviddelikat	hey I'm a close friend of all those nigerian princes	20:18
mech422	2 for 1 sale ? maybe the rapture is getting close- going out of biz sale	20:18
mech422	ya gotta wonder, I mean if no one sent them money - they'd stop spamming, wouldn't they ?	20:18
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daviddelikat	i imagine so ... speaks volumes about americans	20:19
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mech422	Hmm... I wonder where Synq is hiding	20:39
+perlmonkey2	Their employees are assured to be around for they have violated Mark 3:29. From the FAQ.	20:41
mech422	preaction: I was tinkering with my new build stuff the other day and noticed xpdf gets patches applied...	20:41
@preaction	weird	20:41
mech422	so maybe each package should get a subdir for the 'recipe' and patches etc ?	20:42
mech422	so instead of recipes/xpdf.sh we'd have recipes/xpdf/build.sh and recipes/xpdf/patches/foo1.patch ?	20:43
@preaction	you might look at how FreeBSD's ports system does it	20:43
@preaction	they do this same thing, `make` downloads the source, applies patches, and then builds	20:44
mech422	yeah - T2 does it all in shell	20:44
mech422	but I didn't think rizen would be interested in something to 'complicated' ?	20:45
mech422	personally - I like a single manifest file with subdirs for each package to hold the 'recipe', patches, custom jpegs or whatever	20:46
mech422	i think it's a good compromise between maintainability, functionality, and complexity	20:47
mech422	but there's not really much point in doing it if no-one else likes/uses it	20:49
ckotil	Any idea why a .graffile file will not upload via the filepile asset?	20:49
@preaction	.graffle isn't a file, it's a directory	20:49
ckotil	.graffle	20:49
ckotil	ah, that explains it.	20:50
@preaction	it's one of OS X's bundle things (like .app)	20:50
ckotil	thanks, ill have my user zip it up in that case	20:50
ckotil	gotcha.	20:50
mech422	osx has a .graffle ? heh - cute :-)	20:50
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@Haarg	os x has bundles that are really directories, but get treated like files by Finder	21:08
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+perlmonkey2	ut oh.....July 4th, 20+ family members decend upon my small town. I'm the only person in the area with a pool and no neighbors within gunshot distance. Looks like my day might be ending early.	22:17
@tavisto	then you will fight in the shade....	22:18
+perlmonkey2	:D	22:18
+perlmonkey2	tavisto: If loving that movie is wrong, I don't want to be right.	22:19
@tavisto	that's right.	22:19
@tavisto	amen brotha	22:19
@tavisto	my mind is telling me noooooooooo......... but my body....... my boddddddy....	22:20
+perlmonkey2	had to youtube that video :D	22:20
@tavisto	the R Kelly one?	22:21
+perlmonkey2	yep	22:22
@tavisto	did you see this? http://www.plainblack.com/news/webgui-8-goes-php	22:23
+perlmonkey2	tavisto: you sir are an EVIL man	22:24
@tavisto	wait for it	22:24
@tavisto	RICKROLLED	22:24
@tavisto	but with style perlmonkey2!	22:24
@tavisto	it's the narrated version	22:24
+perlmonkey2	yeah, you got me several times in the past with that version	22:24
@tavisto	muwhaha	22:24
+perlmonkey2	yet I STILL click that link	22:24
@tavisto	feel free to give the URL out to your friends	22:24
@tavisto	it's the legit plainblack address that gets ya	22:25
+perlmonkey2	yep	22:25
@tavisto	I'll have to mix it up from now on	22:25
+perlmonkey2	hah, #drupal just banned me for that link. Guess they didn't see the humor.	22:47
+perlmonkey2	Such sweet community on those php sites. Abundant sense of humor.	22:48
@tavisto	nice work	22:51
@tavisto	did they ban you because it was a rickroll	22:51
@tavisto	or did they ban you because it was a webgui link	22:51
@preaction	you'd be hostile too if you had to work with PHP all day	22:51
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kathyk	what? no perldreamer?	23:06
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@preaction	huh, that's weird	23:06
dreamersgirl	he's probably still galavanting around town with the boys...	23:07
dreamersgirl	there's a special Disney train in town just for today	23:08
@preaction	ooh nice	23:08
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SquOnk	re	23:18
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SquOnk	7.6.29 packages just hit Debian Sid! Ha!	23:19
SquOnk	.seen bartjol	23:19
* SquOnk is listening to: Genesis - Genesis - Taking It All Too Hard - (0:12/3:58)		23:19
SquOnk	Ups, sorry.	23:19
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CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11397 /translations/German/German/Asset_MatrixListing.pm: Update from translation server	00:53
CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11398 /translations/German/German/Asset_MatrixListing.pm: Update from translation server	00:53
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CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11399 /translations/German/German/ (Asset_Navigation.pm Asset_Thingy.pm): Update from translation server	01:10
CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11400 /translations/German/German/ (WebGUI.pm FilePump.pm): Update from translation server	01:10
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CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11401 /translations/German/German/FilePump.pm: Update from translation server	01:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11402 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Fix more iCal creation and reading bugs. With tests.	01:38
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11403 /WebGUI/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Forward porting fixes for iCal escaping and unescaping, and line wrapping.	01:38
CIA-44	WebGUI: translation * r11404 /translations/German/German/Asset.pm: Update from translation server	01:38
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mech422	man - my sleep schedule is even more whacked then normal :-(	06:24
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@tavisto	what's up party people?	07:26
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mech422	tavisto: party canceled on account of sleepy :-P	07:54
@tavisto	bah	07:56
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mech422	tavisto: it was really wierd - I was really tired last night so I went to bed around 2-3 am (really early for me..)	08:02
mech422	I slept for 1 hour, then _bounced_ out of bed wide awake... my butt has been dragging ever since	08:03
@tavisto	yep I bet it is	08:11
@tavisto	I don't stay up all night anymore.. but if I don't get like 5-6 hours of sleep in a night I am dragging the next night	08:11
@preaction	if i don't get 10 hours of sleep i feel groggy all day	08:12
@preaction	more than 3 days in a row of that and i pass out	08:12
@tavisto	When I was in Orlando I ended up staying up all night and flying out at 6am... By 3pm the next day I could not physically stay awake even for 5 minutes	08:12
@tavisto	granted, I was up for 29 hours straight... the plane ride home was brutal	08:12
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mech422	my mom just came back from england - she was saying Logan airport in boston got closed yesterday (today?)	08:52
mech422	some sort of electrical storm - they got redirected to connecticut, but couldn't dis-embark as there wasn't any customs officers to check passports	08:52
mech422	they finally got into logan like 6 hours later :-/	08:53
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+MrHairgrease	javascript question.	16:40
+MrHairgrease	see: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m4ba4c7f	16:40
+MrHairgrease	What I'm trying to do is to let the DefinitieTool constructor creat object that more or less inherit from DynamicDropper	16:41
+MrHairgrease	but I don't want to rewrite the constructor	16:42
+MrHairgrease	any idea's how I should do that	16:42
+MrHairgrease	?	16:42
+MrHairgrease	see lines 39 - 41	16:42
daviddelikat	I've seen this sort of thing...	16:42
daviddelikat	I think that JS has a system that calls a SUPER function sort of like perl	16:43
daviddelikat	I'll see if I can find it	16:43
+MrHairgrease	that's the prototype chain	16:43
* daviddelikat looking at JS documentation		16:43
+MrHairgrease	but you can only add a prototype to an object	16:43
+MrHairgrease	which a contructor isn't	16:43
+MrHairgrease	afaik	16:44
daviddelikat	the constructor is part of an object though...	16:44
daviddelikat	you add a constuctor to the new object that calls the constructor from the parent object	16:44
+MrHairgrease	ok, so how would I do that?	16:45
+MrHairgrease	DefinitieTool = function () [	16:46
daviddelikat	working on it...	16:46
+MrHairgrease	this.prototype = new DynamicDropper( arguments);	16:46
+MrHairgrease	}	16:46
+MrHairgrease	maybe that'll work	16:46
daviddelikat	are you using YUI?	16:46
daviddelikat	you could use YAHOO.extend(...)	16:47
+MrHairgrease	oh	16:47
+MrHairgrease	hehe	16:47
+MrHairgrease	yeah I'm using YUI	16:47
+MrHairgrease	I'll chcek that one out	16:47
daviddelikat	but Im sure that JS has a construct...	16:47
daviddelikat	http://www.javascriptkit.com/javatutors/oopjs3.shtml	16:50
daviddelikat	its not what I would call elegant, but then neither is javascript	16:51
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+MrHairgrease	javascript is elegant	16:52
+MrHairgrease	we're just doing it wrong	16:52
daviddelikat	javascript was not designed to do what people use it for today	16:52
daviddelikat	this results in very in-elegant sollutions to many problems...	16:53
daviddelikat	you can try to make a dog work like a spider by grafting on legs, but it will never look as good a s a spider	16:53
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+MrHairgrease	ok	17:07
+MrHairgrease	got it to wrok with YUI extend	17:07
+MrHairgrease	It's done like this: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m11a702d2	17:09
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+perlmonkey2	If you couldn't remember the call to create a new unique assetId and were trying to look it up, how would you go about that?	17:45
+MrHairgrease	ask here	17:46
+bartjol	or there	17:46
+MrHairgrease	$session->id->generate	17:46
+MrHairgrease	or be like th eurotrash	17:47
+bartjol	but that is not the question	17:47
+MrHairgrease	and know EVERYTHING (echo echo echo)	17:47
+bartjol	how would you find it is	17:47
+bartjol	eeeh	17:47
+perlmonkey2	MrHairgrease: thanks for the info. But how would you go about finding htat info yourself? I was looking in the asset constructor, randoming choosing assets to meander through. Hit the forums.	17:47
+MrHairgrease	ack guid?	17:48
@Haarg	why would you need to do that yourself?	17:48
+bartjol	well, I would look for a method to create the asset in asset	17:48
+MrHairgrease	b/c pm2 is not from europe	17:48
+bartjol	and read the code	17:48
+MrHairgrease	=)	17:48
+bartjol	Asset.pm	17:48
+bartjol	or look in the online api	17:48
+perlmonkey2	Haarg: I don't need a real assetId, I need a unique id to identify encryption instances.	17:49
+perlmonkey2	ack guid brought it up :D	17:49
@Haarg	seems like WebGUI::Session::Id should really just be WebGUI::GUID or something	17:50
@tavisto	preaction, http://sosexpert.com/blog/?p=5339	17:54
@tavisto	that's unfortunately a potential customer I was working with.. who apparently doesn't like the quote that Vrby provided	17:54
@tavisto	Or maybe he's trying to get a comparison on cost from someone else.. not sure. It's a good size project though	17:55
+bartjol	well, I like the footer beneath the message: Proudly powered by WordPress and Carrington	17:58
+MrHairgrease	ah well	17:59
@Haarg	MrHairgrease, is there a reason for WebGUI::Shop::TaxDriver::EU to load SOAP::Lite?	18:07
+MrHairgrease	Oh, yeah	18:07
+MrHairgrease	that was from the first vesrion when I did the VAT nr checking myself	18:08
+MrHairgrease	no I'm using Business:Tax::VAT for that	18:08
daviddelikat	check it out! http://delikat.homeip.net:8080/	18:08
+MrHairgrease	so it's not necessary anymore	18:08
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+perlDreamer	morning, folks	18:14
daviddelikat	perlDreamer: http://delikat.homeip.net:8080/	18:14
daviddelikat	g'mornin	18:14
+perlDreamer	interesting concept, daviddelikat	18:15
+perlDreamer	how do you close newly opened tabs?	18:15
daviddelikat	its the new helpdesk	18:15
@tavisto	top of the mornin' to ya	18:15
daviddelikat	its a work in progress	18:15
daviddelikat	where do you think the close button ought to be?	18:16
+perlDreamer	on the tab	18:16
+perlDreamer	little X icon	18:16
daviddelikat	I thought you'd say that...	18:17
+perlDreamer	seems like I've seen that somewhere before...	18:17
+perlDreamer	also, given the recent formatting problems, I'd suggest a new ticket layout	18:17
+perlDreamer	that uses a 1 column layout instead of 2	18:17
daviddelikat	hmmm, not int he scope of my project	18:17
daviddelikat	have to see what the boss thinks...	18:18
daviddelikat	whats wrong with this format?	18:18
+perlDreamer	have a look at the newest bug on webgui.org's bug board	18:18
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daviddelikat	perlDreamer: I think the solution to that is to put the Issue text into a box with auto scrollbars...	18:23
+perlDreamer	it needs to be a fixed width one, then, and narrower than the current one since even with a standard bug the editing controls are hidden.	18:24
+perlDreamer	but like you said, out of scope	18:25
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+perlmonkey2	Should the web user have permission to write to the conf file/	18:26
+perlmonkey2	?	18:26
+bartjol	sure	18:27
+bartjol	:)	18:27
+perlDreamer	it's not under the DocumentRoot	18:27
+perlDreamer	bartjol: kathy says hi	18:28
+bartjol	ah, thank, give her my regards	18:28
+perlDreamer	will do :)	18:28
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@Haarg	perlmonkey2, apache's user shouldn't need write permission to the config files	18:31
+perlmonkey2	Haarg: even if you are using session->config->set?	18:31
@Haarg	apache should never do that	18:31
+perlmonkey2	:(	18:31
+perlmonkey2	if that's true, then I have a way blown deadline.	18:31
@Haarg	that's why the settings table exists	18:32
@Haarg	config files only get loaded on startup	18:32
+perlmonkey2	I think it was decided to put this in the config file for safety since encryption keys/info would be stored there.	18:33
@Haarg	even if apache could write to the file, which it can't depend on, forked apache processes wouldn't get the new information	18:33
+perlmonkey2	Haarg: was going to put in a button to restart webgui	18:34
@Haarg	in the web interface?	18:34
+perlmonkey2	yeah	18:34
@Haarg	ouch	18:34
@Haarg	that's getting into a whole different issue	18:35
+perlDreamer	usually, only root is allowed to do that	18:35
@tavisto	firefox 3.5 seems to move a bit quicker with wG admin on	18:37
@tavisto	than the old ff	18:37
+perlDreamer	it's supposed to have faster JS, so that's expected (and good news)	18:37
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CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11405 /WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Internationalize some Event edit form error messages.	18:40
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daviddelikat	haarg: how hard would it be to add a list command to wgd --> it would list the assets inside another asset.	19:01
@Haarg	wgd ls	19:01
daviddelikat	oh	19:01
daviddelikat	gotta get new glasses	19:01
@Haarg	would be nice if it was a bit faster, but that can't be done without keeping the program running	19:04
+perlDreamer	wgdd is the WebGUI Developer Daemon	19:05
@Haarg	heh	19:06
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11406 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Backporting event error message i18n	19:08
+perlDreamer	I added the config counter to the upgrade script, finally.	19:20
+perlDreamer	and by next Thursday I'll have that package import option (for in-place vs in-parent) done, too	19:21
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11407 /WebGUI/ (lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm t/Storage.t): Add hex generation code to tempspace Storage objects. Otherwise, they return undef.	19:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11408 /WebGUI/sbin/upgrade.pl:	19:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: Add a counter to the upgrade script, so you know how many configs there are	19:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: to do, and how many are done.	19:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11409 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/sbin/upgrade.pl: Backporting upgrade.pl enhancement, uh bug!	19:23
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* perlDreamer goes to the gym		20:35
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knowmad1	hey folks!	22:15
knowmad1	i just got the Ubuntu security email about Compress::Raw::Zlib vulnerabilities	22:15
knowmad1	any concern for WebGUI/WRE?	22:16
knowmad1	i didn't see any forum discussions in my search	22:16
@preaction	looks like the latest WRE uses 2.019	22:18
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+perlmonkey2	ut oh, now I'll never get anything done ever again: http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/games.html	22:30
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+perlDreamer	perlmonkey2: It costs $100 to play those games	22:34
+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: eh? I'm downloading now and didn't see anything about prices.	22:35
+perlDreamer	no linux/MacOs versions available	22:35
+perlmonkey2	I've got a XP vm and am going to try wine	22:36
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+perlmonkey2	need to run some test cases on the encryption module. no fun and games for me.	22:37
+perlDreamer	a few good reasons to look at Test Driven Development: http://use.perl.org/~Mark+Leighton+Fisher/journal/39210	22:40
* perlmonkey2 pulls out his HTML hammer and smacks a query around.		23:17
+perlmonkey2	Oh, I see my problem. I'm using my HTML hammer and I need the SQL hammer.	23:17
+perlmonkey2	Hmm, when you have a broken workflow and the scheduler is set to run it every minute, your logs become clogged with the foul proof of your ineptitude.	23:21
+perlDreamer	wgd reset --dev	23:22
+perlmonkey2	ah, anyone here remember how to put a keyword in a query that is a column name? ie select field, key, row, table from myTable?	23:25
@Haarg	dbh->quote_identifier	23:25
@Haarg	or backquotes if you are doing it directly i guess	23:26
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+perlmonkey2	arrg!! backticks is how you do it. But I'll use quote_identifier, it looks more correct.	23:26
+perlmonkey2	thanks Haarg	23:26
@Haarg	anything dynamic i would say always use quote_identifier	23:27
+perlmonkey2	roger roger. Sanitizers++	23:28
@preaction	hi Zeos! did you have a question?	23:42
+perlmonkey2	sub execute{my $self = shift; $self->session->log->error("I'm in the workflow");} Why would my workflow not be running?	23:48
+perlmonkey2	In running workflows it has shown up suspended with the last state an error. But nothing in the logs.	23:49
+perlDreamer	is the workflow syntax clean?	23:50
+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: if I mess up the syntax I get an exceptoin	23:52
+perlmonkey2	well and error in the logs	23:52
+perlmonkey2	and when the sql was bad I received an error there also.	23:52
+perlDreamer	does execute need to return anything in particular to work correctly?	23:52
+perlDreamer	like OK, or DONE or WAITING?	23:53
+perlmonkey2	But for some reason the logs aren't showing up. Maybe spectre is running as someone without permissions to write to messages	23:53
+perlmonkey2	even before it returns I have log statements.	23:53
+perlDreamer	you mean there's no test for this? ;)	23:53
+perlmonkey2	perl spectre.pl --test ? is that what you mean?	23:54
+perlDreamer	no, perl t/Workflow/Activity/PerlMonkeyActivity.t	23:58
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+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: I'd like to just run the workflow successfully once before writing the test for it.	00:01
+perlmonkey2	Or just get it to execute the first line after execute, just to show it entered.	00:02
+perlmonkey2	I mean my workflow's constructor has a simple error log that never is shown. How can it have a lastStatus of error and not have logged that?	00:07
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+perlmonkey2	When you click run on a suspended workflow, what could cause it to go to a page with 'error' as the only html and nothing be placed in the logs?	00:09
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11410 /WebGUI/docs/ (upgrades/upgrade_7.7.12-7.7.13.pl gotcha.txt): Remove session db based token storage.	00:10
+perlDreamer	daviddelikat, as a frequent bug user, one other thing that would be handy is that whenever a user's name is displayed, if it was a link to their profile	00:30
daviddelikat	is there a macro or function that can provide that link?	00:31
+perlDreamer	$session->user->profileURL, I think	00:31
daviddelikat	it be easy enough to add	00:31
daviddelikat	but we want the named user not the current user i think	00:32
+perlDreamer	$user->getProfileUrl	00:32
+perlDreamer	that should be around anyway, if they're displaying usernames instead of userIds	00:32
daviddelikat	I'll take a look.	00:32
@preaction	anyone think there should be a nice way to add user-specific information without having to go through all the trouble of a profile field?	00:33
@preaction	instead of session scratch, a user scratch?	00:33
+perlDreamer	where would you need it?	00:33
daviddelikat	yes that would be handy	00:33
@preaction	example: I need to keep track of the number of notifications i've sent a user	00:34
daviddelikat	I would use it to set the default value for the helpdesk table number of rows	00:34
@preaction	there should be no way to see this via the profile, and no way to edit it, in fact to any user of the front-end it Should Not Exist	00:34
+perlDreamer	one problem I see with it is that, unlike session scratch, it won't ever go away	00:35
@preaction	daviddelikat: that should work as a session thing	00:35
+perlDreamer	so it could grow without checks/limits	00:35
@preaction	perlDreamer: it will go away when the user is deleted, but yes that's the idea	00:35
daviddelikat	yeah but it would be nice as a user thing	00:35
+perlDreamer	right, and sessions go away faster than users	00:35
daviddelikat	it shouldn't grow though because it will only have certain programatic parameters	00:36
@preaction	think if it as a profile field, invisible, not-editable, and more importantly not visible or editable to Admins of the site	00:36
@preaction	either that, or it should be easier to create these profile fields. a way to say "newOrCreate()" or something	00:37
@preaction	i'm lazy, and i have to do this too often	00:37
+perlDreamer	newOrCreate sounds good to me	00:37
+perlDreamer	it's just a wrapper around existing things	00:38
+perlDreamer	and it would be nice for upgrade scripts	00:38
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11411 /WebGUI/docs/create.sql: Preparing for 7.7.13 release.	00:54
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CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11412 /releases/WebGUI_7.7.13-beta: Release 7.7.13-beta	01:09
* perlmonkey2 contemplates sacrificing goats to make any of the workflows write to the logs.		01:12
+perlDreamer	perlmonkey2, it's working for me in a test	01:19
+perlmonkey2	hmm, added a return->COMPLETE right after my log statement. And now when I run the workflow via the admin, it returns complete. So for some reason the logging isn't working, but at least now I know the workflow is being ran.	01:19
+perlDreamer	what level is your logger set to?	01:20
+perlmonkey2	I think info, but shouldn't matter as i'm logging to error	01:20
+perlmonkey2	error	01:20
+perlmonkey2	it is set to ERROR	01:20
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11413 /WebGUI/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Ready for 7.7.14 development	01:23
+perlDreamer	so, just for giggles, set it to warn, restart apache, and try again	01:24
+perlmonkey2	hmm, with warn I'd think I'd be getting a lot of extra logs. but nothing	01:26
+perlmonkey2	but my code is definetely runnign	01:26
+perlDreamer	I've tried it both with a test script, and via the UI and it's logging for me	01:26
+perlDreamer	in both cases	01:27
+perlmonkey2	I'll see if non-spectre actions can log	01:27
+perlmonkey2	ridiculous...utterly ridiculous.	01:30
+perlmonkey2	I usually view logs by typing 'wlog' which is an alias for all the logs I want to tail when developing. But for some reason I was manually picking them today. And forgot that webgui isn't logging to messages but to webgui.log. Not everything sent to syslogd goes to messages is the lesson of the day.	01:31
+perlDreamer	sounds like you need less goats and more beer	01:37
+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: need more brains	01:38
+perlDreamer	I'll call George Romero	01:39
+perlmonkey2	Heh, good one. I was thinking more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQYjZc7gKXc	01:42
mech422	blarggle	02:22
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mech422	how does this look for a build file ? http://webgui.pastebin.com/m3c65ee47	02:24
mech422	for the 'simple' case - only lines 8-10 change, or as this example shows you can have real logic in the build function	02:25
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+perlDreamer	sf.net just released a new look and feel	02:35
+perlDreamer	and it seems quite broken	02:35
mech422	perlDreamer: sf.net is always broken :-P	02:37
mech422	perlDreamer: btw - could you look at the paste bin above and see what you thing ?	02:38
mech422	s/thing/think	02:38
+perlDreamer	I think that I don't grok bash	02:39
mech422	?	02:40
mech422	I fail	02:40
mech422	you weren't really supposed to need to know bash to use it	02:40
mech422	mostly - just changing the 3 vars at the top should do it (and changing the tar command cuz I was too lazy to dynamically detect the archive type )	02:41
+perlDreamer	mech422, I only mean that I don't know enough about build scripts to know if what I see is good or not	02:42
mech422	oh - how does it seem from a usability standpoint ?	02:44
mech422	simple enough to figure out what to put where ?	02:44
+perlDreamer	seems okay	02:54
+perlDreamer	how does it get WRE specific build flags passed into it?	02:54
mech422	env flags	02:56
mech422	though there really arent many to speak of	02:56
mech422	here's the usage message so you can see what it does: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m6826791e	03:06
mech422	basically you can do stuff like: driver.sh update perl openssl apache	03:07
mech422	or: driver.sh download (this will download all packages listed in packages.txt )	03:08
mech422	echo.... echo..........echo.....................echooooo	04:24
mech422	wow its quiet today	04:37
CIA-44	WebGUI: patspam * r11414 /WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fixed Survey::Test diagnostics when comparing complex data structures	04:52
CIA-44	WebGUI: patspam * r11415 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Survey.pm: Fixed: Survey - check for groupToEditSurvey as well as groupToViewSurvey in canView	04:52
CIA-44	WebGUI: patspam * r11416 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Survey/ExpressionEngine.pm:	04:52
CIA-44	WebGUI: Fixed bug in Survey::ExpressionEngine - was not using most recent survey	04:52
CIA-44	WebGUI: response to resolve external values	04:52
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+perlDreamer	calendar is getting more sticky all the time	05:02
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+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: So when was the last time you did something as stupid as I did today? Ever? When you were 3?	05:24
+perlDreamer	probably yesterday	05:24
+perlDreamer	when I said, "Sure, I'll fix the calendar. It will be easy"	05:24
+perlmonkey2	hah, you crack me up	05:24
+perlmonkey2	hahaha	05:24
+perlmonkey2	famous last words	05:24
+perlDreamer	actually, it is easy, it's just a lot of work	05:31
+perlDreamer	lots more work than I thought, and most of it comes from the interpretation of time zones and end times	05:32
+perlDreamer	I think I'm going to draw up a proposal and float it past JT and Doug and see what they say about it	05:32
mech422	anyone know if there's any c++ template code in the WRE ?	05:41
mech422	I noticed this in the libtool docs:	05:41
mech422	# TODO: Verify if we need to do this (Do we have any C++ template code?) on Darwin :	05:41
mech422	#	05:41
mech422	# * On Darwin, for C++ code with templates you need two level shared	05:41
mech422	# libraries. Libtool builds these by default if	05:41
mech422	# `MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET' is set to 10.3 or later at `configure'	05:41
mech422	# time. See `rdar://problem/4135857' for more information on this	05:41
mech422	# issue.	05:41
elnino	anyone know what "auto pinging" is?	05:43
mech422	umm - you don't have to hand deliver the ping packets ? :-P	05:46
mech422	elnino: in what context did you see this ?	05:46
elnino	someone what's a CMS that has this feature/functionality. no description given.	05:47
+perlmonkey2	elnino: like something to check for connectivity continuously?	05:47
elnino	"We want our site re-built with a CMS with built-in scripts for friendly URLs and Auto Pinging. "	05:48
mech422	elnino: oh	05:48
+perlmonkey2	I'd put money on a notification system for when connectivity is lost to the site.	05:48
mech422	email notification	05:48
mech422	perlmonkey2: nah - I bet they want notification on content update	05:48
+perlmonkey2	what does pinging have to do with content?	05:48
mech422	ping-back	05:48
mech422	I'm guessing the confused it from blogtalk - 'trac back' and 'ping back'	05:49
mech422	s/the/they/	05:49
+perlmonkey2	seems possible	05:49
mech422	could go either way...	05:50
elnino	hmm. interesting ok.	05:50
+perlmonkey2	don't use their terminology, just bid it both ways :D	05:50
mech422	does this person seem the type to actually know what a network ping is ?	05:50
elnino	Thanks guys!	05:50
elnino	probably not mech422.	05:50
mech422	bid it with both - and tell them it costs double :-P	05:50
elnino	I'll think more if I want to bid. well, I'm going to go watch a movie now, for probably the last time for a long time. =)	05:51
+perlmonkey2	"we continuously check and update for network connectivity. blah blah talk about something else ... and we can update you whenever content is altered/added.	05:51
+perlmonkey2	"	05:51
mech422	I always love that monitoring shit	05:53
mech422	people never realize its a 2 location thing	05:54
mech422	"ok - I want an email when the network goes down.."	05:54
mech422	"Umm - and how exactly am I supposed to do that ? " :-P	05:54
mech422	at which point you can sell them a nice off site monitoring service :-)	05:55
+perlmonkey2	Which is why everything should be written down with lots and lots of diagrams.	06:14
+perlmonkey2	When dealing with non-technical clients there is nothing more important than excellent writing skills and the ability to concisely summarize complex ideas with a few quick to grok diagrams.	06:15
+perlmonkey2	feels like there should have been more alliteration in that last sentence.	06:16
topsub	Whats the min. ram you would use on webgui?	06:17
mech422	Heh.. personally, I find vodka to be most helpful when dealing with non-technical clients :-P	06:17
mech422	topsub: that sounds like a dangerous question - how much load before it's allowed to die ?	06:18
mech422	but then again, when I see 'min ram' I think < 128M :-)	06:19
mech422	topsub: if it helps any - my dev. box is 512M for the whole machine including wG but I'm the only one that hits it	06:22
+perlDreamer	topsub, never less than a gig	06:29
+perlDreamer	WebGUI will run on less	06:30
+perlDreamer	but it won't perform well	06:30
+perlDreamer	the more sites, the more apache and mysqld children, the more memory	06:44
+perlDreamer	elnino, google says that autoping is a notification by the site that pages have changed	06:52
+perlDreamer	either the ability to ping other sites, or to respond to those kinds of pings, I'd guess	06:52
topsub	ah. i want o get more for my box	06:52
@preaction	perlDreamer: re: Calendar, I told you so :p	06:55
+perlDreamer	I know. I'm working on a spec to send on to you.	06:55
+perlDreamer	still, there's a lot of good code in here	06:55
@preaction	yeah, but it doesn't handle the hairy cases well.	06:56
@preaction	as i've been told since i wrote it: Calendars are some of the most complicated systems to write, just because of the nature of what we consider date and time	06:56
+perlDreamer	well, if you've backlogged, I think the problems are simple, they just need to be fixed all over the place	06:57
+perlDreamer	which is where good tests come in	06:57
@preaction	indeed	06:57
+perlDreamer	due to the original coding, it's fairly easy to test	06:57
@preaction	i'm backlogged until next month probably, but i'll definately look over whatever you want me to	06:57
+perlDreamer	no need to post process HTML to get the template variables	06:57
@preaction	the way some of my projects are going, i suspect i'm really backlogged until after the WUC :p	06:58
+perlDreamer	there are fewer things cooler than hacking while watching the Matrix	06:58
@preaction	i wanted to get the Alumni site upgrade to 7.7 last month, but there's a slight problem with one of our subclasses of the Collaboration System. i haven't had a single full day to work on it since i figured out what the problem was :p	06:58
@preaction	and 7.7 has all the performance enhancements Alumni paid for	06:59
@preaction	(template attachments and minifying)	06:59
@preaction	am i correct in assuming that perl -e'undef < 3' will always be false?	07:00
+perlDreamer	yes	07:00
+perlDreamer	in numerical context, undef == 0	07:00
@preaction	in fact, that "undef TEST 'anything'" will always be false?	07:00
+perlDreamer	no	07:00
+perlDreamer	undef == 0	07:00
+perlDreamer	undef eq ''	07:00
@preaction	if undef == 0, then 0 < 3, then that is true	07:00
+perlDreamer	whoops, then I read the original question wrong	07:01
+perlDreamer	undef < 3 is always true	07:01
@preaction	yeah, you're right, crap	07:01
@preaction	then something else is wrong with my code	07:01
+perlDreamer	paste?	07:01
@preaction	http://webgui.pastebin.com/m3585f2bb <- it's pretty ugly	07:03
@preaction	but the idea is that we send a notification out to a user, and then update the "importnotified" profile field with the number of the notification (1 or 2)	07:04
@preaction	after a third interval, the user gets deleted	07:05
@preaction	this workflow activity runs once per minute right now (will be moved to once per hour)	07:05
@preaction	this is where i found out that Interval form types are retarded	07:05
@preaction	this is also where i found i needed a not-profile-field :p	07:05
@preaction	(iow, this little activity should be a lot easier than it's been made here...)	07:06
+perlDreamer	this is why you want 8 days as an interval	07:06
@preaction	right	07:06
@preaction	it was 7 weeks actually, but yeah	07:06
@preaction	because 8 weeks they're deleted	07:06
+perlDreamer	are you buying my "use the right tool for the job" response?	07:06
@preaction	no, i'm not. that field IS the right tool :p	07:06
+perlDreamer	DBIx::Class vs DBI speed comparison: http://use.perl.org/~domm/journal/39213	07:07
+perlDreamer	the field is the right tool, but the secondsToInterval isn't	07:07
@preaction	anyway, right now i'm thinking that either line 39 is never reached, or that line 39 is always false	07:07
@preaction	oh, secondsToInterval can be fixed though	07:07
+perlDreamer	it can be fixed "this time"	07:08
+perlDreamer	and next time	07:09
+perlDreamer	and the time after that	07:09
+perlDreamer	but DateTime is the right solution for this time and all of them now	07:09
@preaction	no, it can be fixed permanently. divide by the larged number you can until you get an integer response	07:09
@preaction	so when $input % $divisor == 0, return $input % divisor, $labels{$divisor}	07:10
+perlDreamer	but what's more valid, 8 weeks or 2 months?	07:10
@preaction	2 months	07:10
@preaction	oh	07:10
@preaction	snap	07:10
+perlDreamer	right	07:10
@preaction	2 months != 8 weeks	07:10
+perlDreamer	well, we're talking intervals so approximately	07:10
+perlDreamer	DateTIme::Duration makes for good reading	07:11
@preaction	i still don't think it's fair to compare DBI and DBIx::Class. they're two different use-cases. for WebGUI's normal use (viewing the site), I suspect DBIx::Class will be comparable. this is a special case	07:12
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@preaction	but, it of course remains to be seen	07:12
+perlDreamer	true	07:12
@preaction	ideally i'd like to have both. one for easy prototyping, and improved speed in the other	07:12
@preaction	but with the number of moving parts in WebGUI... maybe the idea should be to reduce the number of APIs we have, period	07:13
@preaction	user, group, profile == necessary. asset == optional.	07:13
@preaction	webgui will work w/o assets, in theory	07:13
@preaction	macros, also optional. i wonder what kind of speedup we'd get without having to parse for macros	07:14
@preaction	i mean, yes, everybody loves macros. even i do, but what if there was a site you didn't need them on?	07:15
+perlDreamer	in general, JT's found that for HTML::Template that macros are faster than template variables.	07:15
@preaction	or, better, what if there was another way to get nearly the same functionality?	07:15
+perlDreamer	and that was before Graham's speed-up earlier this year	07:15
@preaction	true, and graham's speed-up was what, 3x or 30x	07:15
@preaction	one of those i know	07:15
@preaction	but still, webgui is huge and major parts are not touched by many sites	07:16
+perlDreamer	it was a bunch	07:16
@preaction	and we keep adding more parts, and those parts may or may not be used by people	07:16
+perlDreamer	it would be easy to add a check of the config file variable before doing macro processing	07:16
@preaction	exactly	07:16
+perlDreamer	if no macros are listed, skip the parse	07:17
+perlDreamer	but every default template in WebGUI uses macros	07:17
+perlDreamer	^Extras	07:17
@preaction	ah. crap	07:17
+perlDreamer	well, a lot of default templates	07:17
@preaction	well, pie in the sky. there might come a day where big pieces of webgui become optional	07:17
+perlDreamer	keep dreaming, preaction. Great things come of dreams	07:18
@preaction	i'm also thinking of implementing Test::Class sooner rather than later. i like the idea immensely	07:19
mech422	Have you guys heard of WSGI ?	07:32
+perlDreamer	sounds familiar	07:32
+perlDreamer	Web Services....?	07:32
mech422	Web Services Gateway Interface I think	07:33
mech422	basically it allows you to create 'pipelines' for processing web requests	07:33
@preaction	it's CGI++. it's also huge in the Python world	07:34
mech422	so you can (re-)configure a site to use various modules	07:34
mech422	preaction: right :-)	07:34
mech422	not sure if there's something comparable in perl	07:34
mech422	but that would be a cool way to do something like wG	07:34
mech422	for instance - i18n ? don't need it ? remove it from the pipeline	07:34
mech422	want authentication ? wire it into the pipeline	07:35
mech422	need to change template engines - rewire the pipeline	07:35
mech422	etc etc	07:35
mech422	very very cool stuff :-)	07:35
+perlDreamer	sounds like the apache request cycle	07:35
+perlDreamer	content handlers and the like	07:35
mech422	Hmm - yo no se Apache ?	07:36
mech422	:-P	07:36
mech422	oh! it would be cool to get wG running on nginx too :-)	07:36
mech422	wonder if anyone has done that yet ?	07:36
@preaction	mech422: frodwith has some time set aside to see about WebGUI as FastCGI	07:37
@preaction	(instead of mod_perl)	07:37
mech422	would FastCGI reduce teh coupling/reliance on apache ?	07:39
mech422	that would be a nice by-product :-)	07:39
+perlDreamer	I don't know. It's hard enough testing on multiple browsers.	07:41
+perlDreamer	testing on multiple servers sounds like even less fun.	07:41
@preaction	FastCGI would decouple from the server entirely.	07:42
mech422	perlDreamer: heh	07:42
@preaction	fastcgi means your application is, itself, a long-running server process	07:42
mech422	preaction: ahh - very cool :-)	07:42
+perlDreamer	preaction, you'd still have to deal with FastCGI differences on the different servers. FastCGI on apache, and all the rest.	07:43
@preaction	eh, WebGUI only has to support one if we want	07:43
mech422	umm - supposedly FCGI is a standard isn't it ?	07:43
+perlDreamer	sure, just like HTML	07:43
+perlDreamer	and like perl	07:43
* perlDreamer is too cynical nowadays		07:43
@preaction	p5 isn't a standard ;)	07:44
@preaction	p6 is	07:44
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mech422	heh - well, choice is always nice	07:44
topsub	Is it possible for an RFE to be able to delete itemsi n your clip board?	07:47
@preaction	topsub: i'll take your meaning to be "Could I make an RFE to do this"? and yes	07:47
@preaction	you can make an RFE to ask WebGUI to tie your shoes if you wanted ;)	07:47
+perlDreamer	better put a lot of karma into that last one	07:48
+perlDreamer	topsub, RFEs with patches have good chances of being implemented.	07:48
@preaction	well, they will get put into webgui as soon as the RFE's approved, provided they follow our guidelines	07:49
+perlDreamer	yeah, but this is as simple as a little UI. Add a button to the clipboard screen that says delete, pointing to func=deleteList and it's all done	07:50
+perlDreamer	1 hour tops, with hand testing and i18n	07:50
+perlDreamer	the delete button sits right next to the paste button	07:51
mech422	ok - time to make da breakfast burrito	07:56
mech422	bbl	07:56
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topsub	sorry i guess i was asking does anyone copy stuff then like.. i don't need it anymore and just want to delete it	08:01
@preaction	yes, i've done that a couple times now	08:01
+perlDreamer	i still think it's a good RFE	08:05
@preaction	yes, likewise	08:05
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CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11417 /WebGUI/t/Asset/Event.t: Clean-up of version tags in this test. Deleting a parent deletes the children.	08:10
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CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11418 /WebGUI/ (4 files in 4 dirs):	08:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: Add an Event method for returning a non-inclusive end DataTime object.	08:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: Have Calendar use that for determining the end of a week in viewWeek.	08:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: Fix getEventsIn to do all comparisons in UTC so that extra events are not added in.	08:23
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11419 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Backport calendar and event fixes and tests.	08:23
+perlDreamer	preaction, if you have time, check out the new Event and Calendar tests	08:24
@preaction	kk	08:26
Radix_	lol @ http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform	08:33
+perlDreamer	Radix_, now if they'd just switch to WebGUI...	08:34
Radix_	hey.. at least they're on the right platform!	08:34
Radix_	one small leap for man.. one huge leap for mankind..	08:35
mech422	I'm really surprised they use pc's anyway...	08:39
mech422	when I worked at TeCam systems (we did the mexico city exchange when it opened) - it was all fault tolerant minis (stratus, and that software fault tolerant one) and mainframes (IBM, DEC)	08:40
elnino	jeepers that was a long movie.. going to bed now.. Thanks perlDreamer for googling autoping. And your're right mech422, customers don't get that it has to be a 2 location thing. =)	08:40
* elnino is sleepy		08:40
mech422	elnino: g'nite :-)	08:40
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* perlDreamer is packing it in. Good night, all.		08:50
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mech422	SnowWrite is asking about aptanna ? anyone used the editor ?	09:02
@preaction	which editor?	09:07
@preaction	oh, doesn't work with Perl	09:07
@preaction	i've used Komodo IDE, which works with Perl	09:07
@preaction	hmm... based on Eclipse, which i've never liked	09:08
@preaction	but then I hate IDEs on principle	09:08
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mech422	preaction: yeah - she's looking at aptana but wants textmate or coda	09:16
mech422	aptanna doesn't work with perl ? funny - I would have thought eclipse did perl ?	09:16
mech422	I _like_ eclipse - I just wish it wasn't sooo slow as to be unusable :-P	09:16
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@preaction	eclipse does have a Perl plugin, but i don't know what aptana does that's special for Perl	09:28
mech422	ahh	09:29
@preaction	i'm a vim person, i've got plans to make vim easier to use	09:29
@preaction	there are plugins for certain things, but they're not very friendly currently	09:29
@preaction	there's a VCS plugin, for Git, SVN, CVS, but it's horrible to use	09:29
@preaction	it can be much nicer	09:29
mech422	I like kate myself... its 'just enough' ide for me	09:29
mech422	oh? I didn't realize vim had a plugin system....	09:30
@preaction	vim has a whole scripting language	09:30
@preaction	like emacs only less of a real language	09:30
@preaction	vim.org has scripts for download	09:30
@preaction	perl-support is nice, has a lot of good stuff	09:30
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+perlmonkey2	holy smokes, everyone see the new webgui padre plugin?	16:54
mech422	padre ?	17:12
mech422	oh cool :-)	17:13
SquOnk	It's a nice IDE for Perl... something for the VIM/EMACS impaired <g>	17:13
mech422	heh - rather appropriate as I just spent hours trying to get Kate (kde editor) to work properly on vista	17:16
* SquOnk shudders at anything KDE related		17:18
SquOnk	mech422: Try VIM or EMACS on Windows	17:18
mech422	Somehow I can't picture Donna using Emacs :-P Kate worked ok, but the sftp editing wouldn't go :-(	17:20
mech422	she's also looking at aptana (eclipse) and lusting after textmate and coda :-P	17:21
mech422	SquOnk: what don't you like about KDE ? what do you use instead ?	17:22
SquOnk	mech422: Gnome + Xmonad	17:22
SquOnk	mech422: Too bloated. Too windowy. Too slow even on a fast machine with loads of RAM.	17:23
mech422	dunno xmonad ? (goes to google..)	17:23
SquOnk	mech422: It's a window manager written in Haskell and thus customizable with it.	17:23
mech422	slow ? heh - can't say I've noticed, even though I'm running in a VM ?	17:23
mech422	ahh - my issue was Gnome was it always felt half done	17:23
SquOnk	mech422: It is. And when running on batteries it's _hell in summer_.	17:23
mech422	but that was years ago - I haven't really touched gnome since before miguel moved onto mono	17:24
SquOnk	mech422: Most of Gnome has no relation with Mono (yet)	17:24
SquOnk	mech422: There are some applications written in Mono, but not the core nor the really useful ones.	17:24
mech422	except the founders - I meant I havent touched gnome in lcose to 10 years...	17:24
mech422	prolly back when Miguel was still doing the evolution company (in boston? )	17:25
mech422	anyway - I'm very happy with KDE, and pissed/disappointed I can't use it for windows yet :-(	17:26
SquOnk	mech422: Hopefully you will one day.	17:28
SquOnk	I for one won't.	17:28
mech422	hmmm - wonder if Rasterman ever finished that desktop he was doing...	17:31
mech422	e17 ?	17:31
mech422	Enlightenment! thats it :-)	17:32
+perlmonkey2	The one thing I really miss about emacs is the ability to execute shell commands from a window.	17:54
SquOnk	mech422: There has been few (if any?) releases lately. He expects everyone to check out from SVN and build	17:54
+perlmonkey2	mech422: what do you like about KDE over Gnome?	17:54
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: You can do that in VIM	17:54
+perlmonkey2	SquOnk: really? how!! :D	17:54
+perlmonkey2	ah, I read oen article that said you can't and another says :sh	17:55
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: You want to run something and have it's output on a VIM window, right?	17:55
+perlmonkey2	ah, :sh is lame :(	17:55
+perlmonkey2	SquOnk: yes, like emacs does.	17:56
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: You should get the Perl plugin for VIM and be merry	17:56
+perlmonkey2	maybe I should relearn emacs. I seem to recall it being way more powerful than VIM. But I've used vim for about 10 years now, will be hard to stop.	17:56
+perlmonkey2	I have the perl plugin for vim. very nice.	17:56
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: Well, Perl -> Run -> output let's you configure where do you want your output...	17:57
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: ...then you hit Ctrl-F9 and the program will run, having whatever it outputs in either a new window or and xterm	17:58
mech422	SquOnk: yeah - there was something a few weeks ago, but it seems to be very sporadic	18:00
mech422	his personal domain is really out of date too :-(	18:00
mech422	perlmonkey2: Umm - I say KDE feels more 'polished' to me then gnome did	18:01
mech422	perlmonkey2: it just seems to fit together well, work well, and look good	18:02
mech422	perlmonkey2: I think because all the 'hard' stuff is in the base classes - back when I last really played with gnome, half the apps were broken in one way or another depending on which parts of the 'magic' the devs really understood	18:03
+perlmonkey2	hmm, maybe I should give it another go. It doesn't use Gtk but qt, right?	18:03
mech422	yeah- qt4 now	18:03
mech422	actually, if you like eye candy - its got a native compositing/effects engine that works with 2D cards now :-)	18:04
+perlmonkey2	this latest version of gnome seems fairly bullet proof. But I have nothing to compare it to.	18:04
+perlmonkey2	I use compiz with gnome and it is pretty whizbang.	18:04
+perlmonkey2	brb, going to log in with kde	18:04
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+perlmonkey2	hmm, 450MB install and I'd have to give up gnome-terminal, plus rhythmbox beats amarok any day of the week.	18:08
mech422	compviz was ok - but needed too much tweaking to get it working - then there was the whole fork-merge thing - the kde engine was all-in-one so it was trival to setup	18:09
mech422	rhythmbox ? I haven't see that	18:09
+perlmonkey2	hmm...In the Fedora 11 build compiz is a button click away.	18:10
+perlmonkey2	ust turn it on in preferences.	18:10
mech422	I actually like amarok - but I'm not much for music - just use it for the occasional streaming radio stuff	18:10
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - last time I tried you needed to hack config files and enable X11 crap by hand	18:11
+perlmonkey2	I need a tool for handling my ipod. I don't listen to much music on the lappy, so the fact rhythmbox has much better support for devices decied it for me.	18:11
+perlmonkey2	mech422: wow, what distro/version	18:11
+perlmonkey2	?	18:11
mech422	does gnome-terminal do tabbed sessions ? and have a ssh-agent ? that's really nice for when I have to connect to the servers	18:11
mech422	perlmonkey2: source - debian about a year ago ?	18:11
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mech422	perlmonkey2: back during the compviz - fusion split thing	18:12
+perlmonkey2	mech422: yes and yes. I couldn't live without tabbed terms	18:12
+perlmonkey2	cntrl-j/k to move back and forth.	18:12
+perlDreamer	tabbed terms are awesome	18:12
+perlmonkey2	yeah, it is like......a little slice of heaven.	18:12
+perlmonkey2	mech422: ah, fusion. I have painful memories of that.	18:13
mech422	hmm- I seem to recall something in KDE for doing ipod stuff - the poster was basically saying theres like a dozen ways to use an ipod without iTunes	18:13
mech422	yeah - tabbies rock :-)	18:13
mech422	trying to look at rythmbox now	18:14
+perlmonkey2	yes, the fedora repo has many many options. But the most complete solution that bugs me the least seems to be rythmbox.	18:14
+perlmonkey2	heh, I'm so closed minded. Not in the repos then it is alpha :P	18:14
mech422	heh - I guess ITunes really sucks - even the windows crowd hates it :-P	18:14
+perlmonkey2	yeah, I never liked it. locked up all the time, seemed to grow to take up all your memory, tried very very hard to not do what you wanted with your video. That was on XP though, no idea the experience on Mac.	18:15
mech422	here's some basic screenshots of kde 4 - http://www.kde.org/screenshots the plasma and phonon stuff is supposed to be a 'big deal'	18:15
mech422	I just know I couldn't uninstall the dam thing from xp when one of the kids installed it	18:16
+perlmonkey2	oooohhhh, shiny	18:16
+perlmonkey2	that is pretty	18:16
mech422	man - rythmbox is ugly!	18:17
mech422	are those screen shots current ?	18:17
+perlmonkey2	heh, looks a lot like macos	18:17
mech422	kde ? yeah - they have a lot of 'make kde4 into osx' type themes	18:17
+perlmonkey2	rhythmbox is ugly. They didn't get the memo that function without form is for losers.	18:17
mech422	hehe	18:17
+perlmonkey2	I don't like single menu bar though. My tool bar is jammed with quick starts and monitoring applets.	18:18
mech422	perlmonkey2: you can look at http://www.kde-look.org/ if you want to see whats out there	18:18
mech422	oh - you can have as many 'panels' as you want - is that want you mean ?	18:19
+perlmonkey2	okay okay, downloading kde now :P	18:19
mech422	heh - not pressuring :-P thats why the kde-look link - if ya like eye candy, you can browse without installing :-P	18:19
* perlDreamer doesn't like kde anymore		18:19
+perlmonkey2	mech422: is a panel a bar on the top or bottom for adding menu related stuff?	18:19
+perlDreamer	I loved kmail	18:20
+perlDreamer	until it lost my addressbook in the last upgrade	18:20
mech422	perlDreamer: kontact needs some serious love ...	18:20
mech422	kmail is its weakest piece - the time tracking stuff is killer though	18:20
+perlmonkey2	kde falls into the webkit sphere doesn't it?	18:20
mech422	webkit came from kde, yeah	18:20
+perlmonkey2	can gecko really survive with people standardizing on webkit?	18:21
mech422	umm - a panel is like a think bar you can put on anywhere on the screen with icons for launching apps, menus that 'slide' out etc	18:21
+perlmonkey2	I guess so. With an ecosystem of millions, it can probably do just fine.	18:21
mech422	they can also 'swallow' stuff to the 'systray' area	18:22
+perlmonkey2	mech422: then I probably mean a menu bar like on the bottom of the kde screens. Gnome has one on top and bottom (by default).	18:22
+perlmonkey2	oh	18:22
+perlmonkey2	no, it is called a panel	18:22
mech422	yeah - I don't see gecko going away ... but I'd love to see all the webkit fixes/enhancements merged back to KDE	18:22
+perlmonkey2	nevermind that I said anything :P	18:22
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+perlmonkey2	hmm, my userland home is about to be polluted with the billion .files from gnome plus the new ones from kde. this is about to get messy.	18:24
mech422	it shouldn't...	18:24
mech422	I thought they 'agreed' on that now	18:24
mech422	kde can use gnome shortcuts and vice versa ?	18:24
+perlmonkey2	nice	18:25
mech422	oh - you mean app specific directories for config files and such ?	18:25
+perlmonkey2	right	18:25
mech422	yeah - if you fire up a ton of new apps , you'll get them :-P	18:25
mech422	I was thinking desktop shortcuts and menus	18:25
+perlmonkey2	gnome's flora/fauna plus KDE's should make a solid mess of my .home	18:25
mech422	heh - create a new user ?	18:26
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11420 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/docs/ (changelog/7.x.x.txt upgrades/upgrade_7.6.25-7.6.26.pl): Fix a bug in an upgrade script.	18:26
mech422	just for testing ?	18:26
+perlmonkey2	ut oh, forogt about konsole. I think that is why I abandoned kde all those years ago. No tabbing?	18:26
mech422	yeah - it tabs	18:26
+perlmonkey2	whew	18:26
mech422	but its not control-t by default - its somethign stupid	18:27
+perlmonkey2	and looks pretty doing it (from the screen shots )	18:27
mech422	check the settings	18:27
+perlmonkey2	yeah, I have to customize almost everything I use to my preferred hotkeys. Eclipse/Netbeans are egregious in their default settings.	18:27
mech422	its like shift-control-bark-at-the-moon or somethign	18:27
+perlmonkey2	hah	18:27
SquOnk	You missed --pretty-please	18:28
mech422	the 'problem' was some useless feature had usurped ctrl-t	18:28
+perlmonkey2	never can find the bark-at-the-moon key when I need it :P	18:28
mech422	its right next to vi's 'dammit!' key	18:28
mech422	quit-dammit! , save-dammit!, bark-at-the-moon-dammit!	18:29
SquOnk	In 22 years of vi I haven't had the need for such key	18:29
mech422	you don't use ':q!' ?	18:29
mech422	or ':w!' ?	18:29
SquOnk	Yes, but without the cursing :)	18:29
mech422	the '!' used to be called the 'dammit'	18:29
+perlmonkey2	oh, by damnit you mean bang! Like if you don't complete this command I'm going to get a gun and go BANG	18:29
SquOnk	I've had to remap CapsLock to ESC though, but that's a hardware problem :)	18:30
+perlmonkey2	you have to threaten VIM to show you mean it.	18:30
mech422	perlmonkey2: yeah - it used to be the dammit... then it was the 'bang" in ''sha-bang'" ('#!')	18:30
+perlmonkey2	heh, 94 minutes is the fastest I could possibly download KDE. Yay for living in the sticks.	18:31
+perlmonkey2	I like damnit better	18:31
mech422	perlmonkey2: I do too - but I'm an old redneck :-P	18:31
+perlmonkey2	but splat is just perfect and timeless.	18:31
mech422	hehe... and what was the old story about the person that called support trying to get '6' to edit their file ?	18:32
mech422	oh - and on the emacs front we have emacs = Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping :-P	18:33
+perlmonkey2	yeah, I knew moving out here my internets would be teh sux, but a plethora of reasons to live outside the cities.	18:33
+perlmonkey2	heh	18:33
SquOnk	EMACS = EMACS Makes Any Computer Slow	18:34
SquOnk	EMACS = Escape Meta Alt Control Shift	18:34
mech422	I grew up in the sticks (New Hampshire) - so of course, I moved to the city :-) I think everyone just likes a change..	18:34
+perlmonkey2	I think emacs usually had a one keystroke advantage in editing, and could certainly traverse files faster.	18:34
mech422	SquOnk: heh - that last one opens the emacs tetris game doesn't it ? :-P	18:34
SquOnk	mech422: Wouldn't know	18:35
+perlmonkey2	no, I think it turns on the hot water in the emacs sink.	18:35
mech422	hehe	18:35
mech422	anyway - not sure KDE apps are the 'best of breed' for any particular usage.. but they fit together nicely, and seem pretty solid	18:36
mech422	I use stuff like kpdf/ockular a lot for work - along with Kate and Konversation for irc	18:36
+perlmonkey2	Hmm, I grew up in a small farming town, moved to denver for 5 years, then to a small cattle town. Then to Albuquerque, then to Tulsa, then to Toledo, then to OKC, then back to a small cattle town.	18:36
mech422	I started in New England and ended up exactly opposite - 'big city' , 'left coast'	18:37
+perlmonkey2	If I ever leave I'm thinking Sacremento megaplex area somewhere. Still surrounded by agriculture, but close to the Ocean and multitudes.	18:38
+perlmonkey2	Although if I'm rich it will be San Fran	18:39
mech422	Really? I've been thinking about going back to phx	18:39
mech422	but it would be hard to give up Fry's	18:39
mech422	(Fry's in phx suck :-P )	18:39
+perlmonkey2	What could possibly attract you to Phoenix?	18:40
mech422	oh - check out kdevelop once you got it running - it was shaping up _really_ nice last time I checked	18:40
+perlmonkey2	If you grew up with the green, the brown is hard to take. I loved Albuquerque, but the desert was just too much.	18:40
SquOnk	perlmonkey2: I'm betting is not football.	18:40
mech422	actually - I was surprised how green it is...	18:40
mech422	and how much rain there is :-P	18:40
+perlmonkey2	hmm	18:40
+perlmonkey2	Flagstaff sure isn't	18:41
mech422	but its _cheap_ , _great_ weather	18:41
mech422	oh - flag is just a wide spot in the road - they don't believe in landscaping out there	18:41
mech422	aside from a few old junkers on the lawn :-P	18:41
mech422	ASU girlies in shorts all year is a nice benefit too	18:42
+perlmonkey2	I've got a good buddy who lives in Phoenix. Used to work for Honeywell but is now in engineering sales. Absolutely loves it, so close to Mexico and decent weather.	18:42
mech422	Umm - decent tech - Amex, GE, Motorola, Intel, McDongal Douglas, etc	18:42
* SquOnk trumps ASU girlies with any Venezuelan girl		18:43
SquOnk	...which happen to be in shorts most of the time	18:43
+perlmonkey2	SquOnk++ yay for the ladies in the shorts.	18:44
mech422	only real down side is all the old snow birds	18:44
mech422	and the fact that too many califorians figured out how cool it is, and are raising the prices :-P	18:44
mech422	when intel moved in, they literally broke 2 school districts with all hte new kids	18:45
+perlmonkey2	Hmm, google maps shows Phoenix a blip of green smack in the middle of high desert. Just like Albuquerque. no thanks :)	18:45
+perlDreamer	well, notwithstanding the fact that the state has been in a financial crisis for like two years?	18:45
mech422	buidling moritoriums, lotteries for building permits, prices doubling on houses	18:45
mech422	perlDreamer: hello ? califorian - there is no finincial crisis :-P	18:46
+perlmonkey2	think of the property taxes you'll get to pay. And the knowledge that they'll be skyrocketing for years to come.	18:46
mech422	perlDreamer: I mean hell, Compared to Cali, phx is a model of responsible goverance :-P	18:47
+perlmonkey2	I have this idea that Californians will start trading goods with chopped up pieces of IOU's.	18:47
mech422	Donna just said some thing about some states considering using precious metals for trade ?	18:47
mech422	I was babbling about kde so I didnt' get the whole thing though	18:47
+perlmonkey2	mech422: I think the WaPo had an article of the 15 worst financially governed states, and I'm fairly certain AZ had a higher % of debt than cali.	18:47
+perlmonkey2	nope, cnbc	18:49
mech422	hmm - so are they handing out iou's in 4 weeks ?	18:49
+perlmonkey2	no way, the feds will jump in at the last moment.	18:50
mech422	eh - cali's like the 9th largest economy in the world... I think the feds will just let us twist in the wind till we figure it out	18:51
+perlmonkey2	The required bailout would be smaller than GM got.	18:51
+perlmonkey2	hold up, trying to get to the numbers in the cnbc slideshow. hard to do while downloading kde on a 768kbps connection :P	18:52
+perlmonkey2	$15billion shortfall in cali. Small fraction of the auto bailouts. With $300billion in revenues, how is that even possible?	18:55
mech422	ask arney :-P	18:56
+perlmonkey2	Cali's 2010 budget is 22% short and Arizona's is 28% short. For 2009, Cali also has a 6% edge in fiscal responsibility :D	18:56
mech422	6% ? I'll deal with it :-P	18:57
mech422	and its the stuff that gets cut that bugs me...	18:58
+perlmonkey2	2010 California isn't so bad being in 6th worst place, but I think they made the news cause 2009 they are really bad off compared to everyone else.	18:58
+perlDreamer	mech422, then the media is slandering California. It says the governator is like getting ready to declare bankruptcy	18:58
mech422	like schools - summer school's have cut their second session already - regardless of what happens with the budget	18:58
+perlmonkey2	mech422: wait you mean the people who got the state into this fiscal mess aren't being responsible in how they cut spending? Say it an't so :P	18:59
mech422	perlDreamer: ? As far as I know, he is ? He likes to play 'hard ball' ... so he'll shut the whole state down just to get crap rushed thru	18:59
mech422	perlmonkey2: touche!	18:59
+perlDreamer	gotcha	18:59
+perlmonkey2	I think it is a strategic move by policy makers. The cons are risking their seats, but if they scare people enough, getting tax increases through becomes much easier.	18:59
mech422	too be honest - I really feel he's brought too much 'hollywood' to the govenorship	19:00
mech422	and I'm sick of him shortchanging schools	19:00
+perlmonkey2	If we don't raise taxes we'll have to start selling children to the dog food factories!!	19:01
mech422	for instance - when I moved out here 10 years ago - Mesa arizona spent $100 more per student per year - and arney has made it even worse...	19:01
mech422	(oh more then cupertino californa - home of apple and 6 figure salaries, as opposed to mesa's then $35K median income )	19:02
+perlmonkey2	yeah, I only trust the politicians who say the first thing we need to do is hire 10x as many inspectors and auditors. Which means I don't trust any politicians.	19:02
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+perlDreamer	man, it is so odd to write method calls _inside_ WebGUI::Session	19:04
+perlDreamer	my fingers are trained to type $session->var	19:04
+perlDreamer	$session->log	19:04
+perlDreamer	and typing $self->var just looks odd	19:04
+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: you're hacking session?	19:05
+perlDreamer	it does need to be bug fixed every now and then	19:05
+perlmonkey2	how do you keep from cracking under the pressure? one mistake and you take down half the internets :P	19:06
+perlDreamer	well, having done it already does help	19:06
+perlDreamer	It was the great Form fiasco of 2006	19:06
+perlDreamer	we have this thing called the Text form	19:06
+perlDreamer	I broke that	19:06
+perlmonkey2	bah, who even uses that :P	19:07
+perlDreamer	I know	19:07
+perlDreamer	Losers!	19:07
+perlmonkey2	mech422: I know how to solve all the country's fiscal problems. Give the GAO power to direct the DoJ or at least create Grand Juries. Boom, done. Overnight everything instantly fixed, or at least exposed to lots of sunlight.	19:09
mech422	Hmm - I dont know...	19:18
mech422	wouldn't that just make the GAO auditors the new 'crooked politicians' ?	19:18
+perlmonkey2	mech422: maybe in the future, but right now I think the ranks of beurocrats that inhabit that place are pretty hard core patriots trying to dig out corruption and expose it. Else why work there, being an accountant in the market pays much better.	19:21
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mech422	permonkey2: heh - I've always thought that to be part of the problem - given govt. salaries, the best and brightest would naturally tend to gravitate around more lucrative, private positions	19:37
mech422	perlmonkey2: leading me to doubt either the abilities or the motives of the people that actually take the jobs...	19:38
CIA-44	WebGUI: colin * r11421 /WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Fix the form for the Product. It was returning variants with no quantity.	19:38
mech422	but to be honest, I've only really been exposed to state workers - not federal employees	19:38
mech422	authorize.net is down ?	19:39
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+perlmonkey2	mech422: kde is way cooler than I thought it would be. I don't even know why Gnome exists anymore let alone is the default windowing system.	20:38
mech422	perlmonkey2: sorry man - if that was saracasm it went undetected :-)	20:39
mech422	or maybe I'm just so used to it I take it for granted ?	20:39
@preaction	KDE is imho where Gnome should be trying to go in terms of customizability and features	20:41
@preaction	Gnome is so focused on usability that they seem to miss new features that could help them reach their usability goal	20:41
mech422	[10:17] <Lenolium> Gnome has a bunch of standalone apps, KDE actually has integration.	20:41
mech422	[10:17] <Lenolium> Konqueror is fast but stupid.	20:41
mech422	[	20:41
mech422	that seems to be my feeling as well - kde has integration..	20:42
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@preaction	integration is good though, see OS X	20:42
perlmonkey21	mech422: missed that last, kde locked up on me	20:42
mech422	btw - a friend just asked about gnome vs kde for his new install - he got kde 3-to-0 as the answer...	20:43
mech422	perlmonkey21: really ? wow - thats odd ? the app or the whole desktop ?	20:43
@preaction	there's no simple app to get photos off of a camera, you use iPhoto, which also has editing built-in	20:43
perlmonkey21	mech422: the whole desktop	20:43
perlmonkey21	couldn't even ctrl-alt # into a non-x term.	20:43
mech422	perlmonkey21: are you on kde 3 or kde 4 ?	20:43
perlmonkey21	mech422: fedora 11 kde 4.2.4.2 or whatever it is.	20:44
perlmonkey21	latest stable I think	20:44
mech422	ahh - can't help there - I don't do RH - I'm more of a debian man	20:44
mech422	donna is running kunbuntu with kde 4.2 in a virtual box - no problems	20:45
mech422	I'm running (cry) 3.X in a virtual box	20:45
mech422	neither of us has had lock ups though ?	20:46
mech422	perlmonkey21: btw - do you really like kde or was the early comment meant as sarcasm? Maybe I just take kde for granted now ?	20:46
perlmonkey21	mech422: no, it is way slicker than I thought it was going to be. Puts gnome to shame.	20:47
perlmonkey21	But QT is just a nicer looking library than Gtk and also 100x easier to work with.	20:47
mech422	heh - cool - glad you like it :-)	20:47
mech422	I find KDE really good for my day to day stuff	20:47
perlmonkey21	hmm, not hotkey to make konsole window full size, it is either full screen or nothing.	20:48
perlmonkey21	s/not/no/	20:48
mech422	? isn't full size == full screen ?	20:48
perlmonkey21	well I just want the window made its max size, full screen means it is the only things showing with the bottom panel covered up.	20:49
mech422	btw - you can add 'decorators' to the windows - I think there's 'slots' for up to 6 of them ?	20:49
mech422	ahh	20:49
perlmonkey21	actually let me check again, I'm not used to it being down there and might have misunderstood what happened.	20:49
perlmonkey21	nope, it covers up the panel	20:49
mech422	the panel can autohide too if that helps	20:49
perlmonkey21	no, I like it down there.	20:50
mech422	in 3.5 it does what you want	20:50
perlmonkey21	usually have my network machine monitors there	20:50
mech422	so there is prolly an option for it in the settings somewhere ?	20:50
mech422	my 'maximize' decorator does it	20:50
perlmonkey21	what is the maximize hotkey?	20:51
mech422	(btw - you can change the decorators on the border - you know close, minimize,maximize)	20:51
mech422	lemme look in the settings and see if there's a keyboard shortcut	20:51
perlmonkey21	hah, you can drag desktop widgets into the panel and they have a panel mod.e	20:54
perlmonkey21	too much fun.	20:54
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mech422	perlmonkey: live desktop previews in the pager are nice too :-)	20:55
mech422	perlmonkey21: you can get more 'plasmoids' (desktop widgets) from www.kde-look.org	20:56
mech422	can find a shortcut for maximize though - just the window decorators	20:56
mech422	ah-ha!	20:57
mech422	its un-assigned in my version	20:57
mech422	you can assign it in control panel->regional and accesibility->keyboard shortcuts	20:58
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perlmonkey22	pager locked itup. I guess no compiz for me in kde	20:58
mech422	oh no...	20:58
mech422	no	20:58
mech422	use the builtin schtuff	20:58
mech422	sorry - I should have thought of that	20:59
mech422	I don't think it plays nice with compiz	20:59
perlmonkey22	well I turned the compiz settings down last time.	20:59
perlmonkey22	although the kde menus don't even mention the name compiz, just call it desktop effects.	20:59
mech422	I'd actually turn it off (remove the module?)	20:59
perlmonkey22	Probably asking too much from an intel g50 vid.	20:59
mech422	yeah - kde has a builtin effects/compositing engine	21:00
mech422	nah - it was designed for use on even 2d cards :-)	21:00
mech422	that was one of the big selling points of using it instead of compiz	21:00
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mech422	'plasma' should be much lighter and snappier, and support older cards better	21:01
perlmonkey22	hmm, so in desktop settings turning on effects turns on plasma and not compiz?	21:03
mech422	Umm - I didn't think compiz was an option... but I would definately use plasma	21:03
perlmonkey22	then it must be plasma which is locking up	21:03
mech422	but you still have compiz running from your gnome session don't you ?	21:04
* mech422 is confused ?		21:04
mech422	our machines don't even have compiz installed - so I'm not quite sure what optiosn your getting ?	21:04
perlmonkey22	mech422: nope, no gnome sessions running	21:05
mech422	not gnome - compiz? it used to hook into x11.conf and have its own daemon and crap didn't it ?	21:05
perlmonkey22	well I have gnome-keyring and gdm-simple-slave	21:05
mech422	actually - gnome is fine - its compiz I think is a problem	21:05
perlmonkey22	But I think those are both fro the login screen.	21:05
perlmonkey22	compiz isn't running	21:06
mech422	you can run gnome apps inside kde (and kde apps inside gnome)	21:06
mech422	I do that with stuff like Gimp	21:06
mech422	ok - so no compiz, plasma turned on - do you have 'full' eye candy or did you tone it down any ?	21:07
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perlmonkey22	mech422: I started with full eye candy. toned it down. then turned it off	21:08
mech422	hmm - donna had 'desktop effects' disabled in hers :-P	21:09
mech422	ahh - the 'all effects' tab...	21:09
mech422	last I checked - some of the effects were a bit flaky (they are plugins)	21:09
mech422	I had these working fine: explosion, fade, magic lamp, transluceny, wobbly windows	21:11
mech422	desktop cube, cover switch, and one of the 'live preview' pager thingys	21:12
mech422	oh! on advanced - we have compositing type 'openGL'	21:13
+perlDreamer	mech422: http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/0rigp6NJ3Ks/Seattle-Data-Center-Outage-Disrupts-E-Commerce	21:18
mech422	yeah - authorize is getting hammered - a fire in the NOC, and the backups failed ?	21:19
mech422	looks like they're coming back on line now according to their twitter stream	21:21
mech422	perlmonkey22: 'desktop grid' is a nifty effect	21:23
mech422	sorta like a extra-large 'live preview'	21:24
perlmonkey22	mech422: not going to try effects again. last time I had desktop effects locking up I had an ex2 corruption that was only resolved with a fresh install.	21:32
mech422	dam man - you are having a ton of problems	21:36
mech422	sorry bout that - I haven't had any issues to speak of :-(	21:37
perlmonkey22	with effects turned off things are working just fine. no worries.	21:39
mech422	heh - donna likes the eye candy - but I'm still on 3.5	21:43
mech422	btw - _this is cool_ - http://basket.kde.org :-)	21:44
mech422	if you like 'oneNote' or ad-hoc 'association' programs, basket is awesome :-)	21:44
mech422	but last I checked it wasn't ready for kde4 :-(	21:45
mech422	the really cool thing was being able to 'attach' files to your baskets...	21:46
perlmonkey22	wow, that is pretty cool	21:50
mech422	perlmonkey22: yeah - there's a nice time tracker too	21:56
mech422	fire up 'kontact' and poke around a bit - its a pretty good outlook/evolution type app	21:56
mech422	I need sleep	21:57
mech422	I got 2 hours last night, then couldn't sleep :-(	21:57
mech422	perlmonkey22: I'll be back later :-) Save up any questions for me :-)	21:57
perlmonkey22	mech422: groovy, thanks :)	22:03
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mech422	perlmonkey22: Hmm - kde 4.2.4 is out and supposedly much nicer then 4.2.2 (at least on debian...)	23:08
mech422	perlmonkey22: maybe upgrading to 4.2.4 or 4.3rc1 would help ?	23:08
+perlDreamer	mech422, I thought you were asleep	23:31
mech422	perlmonkey22: http://userbase.kde.org/GPU-Performance	23:51
mech422	perlDreamer: yeah - I thought so too :-P	23:51
mech422	its not quite insomnia - but my sleep schedule seems to be getting really really whack	23:51
+perlDreamer	yeah	23:53
+perlDreamer	that's not healthy, dude	23:54
* perlDreamer recommends a strong dose caffeine, then go to bed at 11:00pm		23:54
+perlDreamer	sleep until 7:00 the next day	23:54
mech422	heh - 7 pm you mean ? I've had 2 hours sleep since what - 3pm yesterday ? going to 11pm would result in a coma :-P	23:55
--- Day changed Sat Jul 04 2009
+perlDreamer	no, sleep 8 hours a day. 11:00pm to 7:00am	00:04
* perlDreamer moonlights as a doctor		00:05
+perlDreamer	is it bad if you laptop starts smelling hot, like solder?	00:06
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Not if you have a rare steak near	00:28
+perlDreamer	SquOnk, you'd ruin a good steak with solder?	00:29
SquOnk	perlDreamer: Smear some bbq and you won't notice	00:30
SquOnk	Besides, you haven't had steak until you've had an argentinian steak	00:30
+perlDreamer	indeed	00:36
* SquOnk will be cooking a "parrillada" argentinian style tomorrow		00:37
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+perlDreamer	later, everyone	00:51
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elnino	Happy 4th everyone! Bye	06:35
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11422 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/ (Wobject/StoryTopic.pm Wobject.pm Story.pm):	20:22
CIA-46	WebGUI: Fix POD to increase POD coverage, mainly by fixing typos and removing	20:22
CIA-46	WebGUI: unused code.	20:22
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11423 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/ (Crud.pm Shop/Transaction.pm FilePump/Bundle.pm): Add missing POD, or fix POD typos which caused coverage to be low.	20:38
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11424 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/ (Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.pm Account/Shop.pm): More POD fixes.	20:38
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11425 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Sku.pm: Add missing POD for Tax.	20:38
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11426 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Poll.pm: Add missing POD.	22:08
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11427 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Poll.pm: Use as many autogenerated form fields as possible.	22:38
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11428 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Shop/PayDriver/ (PayPal.pm Ogone.pm): Fix POD capitalization.	22:53
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+perlDreamer	Happy 4th of July, everyone!	23:22
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11429 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add missing POD and fix POD typos in subroutine names. 30/441 failing 100% POD coverage.	23:23
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11430 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/ (FilePile.pm Template.pm): Add missing POD to these assets.	23:37
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11431 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Image/Graph/ (XYGraph/Line.pm Pie.pm XYGraph.pm XYGraph/Bar.pm): Add missing POD to WebGUI::Image and child classes, and fix any POD typos that affect coverage.	23:53
--- Day changed Sun Jul 05 2009
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11432 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Layout.pm: Add missing POD to Layout.	00:07
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11433 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Shop/PayDriver/PayPal/PayPalStd.pm: Add missing POD to PayPalStd.	00:07
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11434 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/InOutBoard.pm: Add missing POD. Refactor to use the definition to draw the edit form.	00:22
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11435 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Sku/Product.pm: Add missing to the Product.	00:52
+perlDreamer	Anybody mind if I watch Airwolf?	01:16
+perlDreamer	I can turn down the volume if it's too loud	01:17
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11436 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Shop/PayDriver/ITransact.pm: Add missing POD to ITransact	02:22
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11437 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Operation/Graphics.pm: Add missing pod to Operation/Graphics.	02:22
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11438 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Collaboration/Newsletter.pm:	02:37
CIA-46	WebGUI: Remove methods that are copy/paste from the skeleton, and add missing POD	02:37
CIA-46	WebGUI: to the Newsletter.	02:37
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11439 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/PerformanceProfiler.pm: Add missing POD to PerformanceProfiler.	03:08
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11440 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/ (File.pm File/Image.pm):	03:52
CIA-46	WebGUI: Add POD missing from File and Image. Remove duplicate code in Image that	03:52
CIA-46	WebGUI: can be inherited from File.	03:52
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11441 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/ (HttpProxy.pm HttpProxy/Parse.pm): Add missing POD to the HttpProxy	03:52
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11442 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/WikiPage.pm: Add POD missing from the WikiPage. 12/441 files left	04:07
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11443 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/WikiMaster.pm: Add POD missing from WikiMaster	06:27
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11444 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/WikiPage.pm: Fix a POD whitespace issue in the WikiPage.	06:55
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11445 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Post.pm: Add missing POD to the Post.	06:55
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11446 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Post/Thread.pm: Add POD for some methods in the Thread.	07:09
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chimpbabwe	sick of fat, ugly, dog-faced bitches constantly running their mouths?	09:16
chimpbabwe	go to www.cumshotonherface.com	09:16
chimpbabwe	see girls who are actually easy on the eyes	09:16
chimpbabwe	and know what god gave them their mouths for	09:16
chimpbabwe	for worshipping cock	09:16
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+perlDreamer	If anyone is bored today, I have a core project that I could use some help on.	19:23
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11447 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Post/Thread.pm: Add missing POD, and fix POD typos in the Thread.	19:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11448 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Dashboard.pm: Add missing POD to Dashboard 8/441	19:56
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11449 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/AssetCollateral/DataForm/Entry.pm: Add missing POD in DataForm::Entry	20:09
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11450 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/AssetCollateral/DataForm/Entry.pm: Fix a bug in AssetCollateral/DataForm/Entry with renameField.	20:23
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11451 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/lib/WebGUI/AssetCollateral/DataForm/Entry.pm: Backportind DataForm entry bugfix.	20:23
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11452 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Shortcut.pm: Add some of the POD missing from the Shortcut.	22:09
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11453 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Shortcut.pm: Add the remainder of the missing POD for the Shortcut.	22:38
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11454 /WebGUI/ (lib/WebGUI/Group.pm t/Group.t): Have just 1 list of groups that should not be deleted.	23:53
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11455 /WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs):	23:53
CIA-46	WebGUI: Unify the list of protected groups into Group->vitalGroup. Refactor	23:53
CIA-46	WebGUI: WebGUI::Test and Operation/Group to use that list.	23:53
--- Day changed Mon Jul 06 2009
+perlDreamer	5 more modules to go...	00:04
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11456 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Operation/Group.pm: Add the missing POD, and fix broken POD that I just committed.	00:07
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+perlDreamer	tavisto!	06:02
@tavisto	howdy, happy 4th of July	06:02
+perlDreamer	you, too, dude.	06:02
@tavisto	i still have large fireworks going off in my neighborhood	06:02
Radix_	you guys still partying?	06:02
@tavisto	I celebrated today by firing off about 8-10 different guns with a bunch of friends of mie	06:02
@tavisto	mine	06:02
+perlDreamer	are you lighting them, or is it the neighbors?	06:03
Radix_	it's like the 6th july here	06:03
@tavisto	not me.. someone in my neighborhood. There are 165 houses in my neighborhood so not sure	06:03
@tavisto	It's July 5th right now.. in 1 hour it'll be the 6th cuz I'm EDT	06:03
Radix_	anything bigger than a sparkler here is illegal :(	06:03
@tavisto	the rule of thumb is that many places stagger their fireworks shows so that they aren't all at the same time	06:04
@tavisto	so some do it Friday, some do it Saturday, and others do it tonight	06:04
Radix_	cool.. happy 4th july for you guys anyway :)	06:04
Radix_	our celebrations are january 26th - australia day ;)	06:04
@tavisto	and in Michigan we can't have any of the big fun fireworks... Against state law... So people to go neighboring states and smuggle them into Michigan :)	06:05
@tavisto	I see... I'll try and remember that	06:05
+perlDreamer	They're just upholding the fine tradition of rebellion and challenging laws	06:05
+perlDreamer	"Because that' taxation without representation, and that's not fair."	06:05
@preaction	most states have those same laws: you can't purchase fireworks in the state, but you can purchase them outside and bring them in	06:06
@preaction	(wisconsin has one too, at least)	06:07
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11457 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Collaboration.pm:	06:27
CIA-46	WebGUI: Add missing POD. Also, do not call methods from Wobject that are inherited from	06:27
CIA-46	WebGUI: Asset.	06:27
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CIA-46	WebGUI: doug * r11458 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Auth/LDAP.pm: Added POD to WebGUI::Auth::LDAP	06:42
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11459 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Operation/User.pm: Add missing POD for Operation/User.pm	06:55
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11460 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/DataForm.pm: Add 40% to POD coverage in DataForm.	07:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11461 /WebGUI/t/POD.t: Add POD_COVERAGE==3 switch to find empty POD blocks.	07:10
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CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11462 /WebGUI/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Add the missing Map icons.	07:53
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11463 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm: Fix mistakes in POD for Storage.pm	07:53
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+perlDreamer	How 'bout you, stDavid. Want to help us reach 100% Pod coverage for WebGUI?	07:55
stDavid	Sure pD... Now?	07:57
+perlDreamer	Pod::Coverage has a bug. If won't work propertly if the package declaration does not match the file name and path.	07:57
+perlDreamer	So Asset.pm, AssetTrash.pm, et. al. register as missing POD.	07:57
+perlDreamer	I have a small test case that exposes the bug, but I'm sure that it would be fixed more quickly with a patch.	07:58
+perlDreamer	You up for taking a look at it?	07:58
+perlDreamer	This weekend, I hand added missing POD for 39 modules. Doug ponied up for writing one, too.	07:59
stDavid	Actually I was on my way to bed (EST here). My son gets me up pretty early in the morning. But tomorrow I've got some time mid-day if that works...	08:00
+perlDreamer	sure!	08:00
* perlDreamer didn't know you had children		08:01
stDavid	One 11 year-old... We're working on a robotics project this summer together for a Carnegie Mellon program. He keeps me VERY busy	08:03
stDavid	Hence the early wake-up calls	08:03
+perlDreamer	yeah, early sucks, but helping make robots with you son, that's priceless.	08:03
stDavid	Wouldn't trade it for anything. You have 2 kids?	08:04
+perlDreamer	yeah, two boys. 8 and 10	08:04
stDavid	(sometimes) wish they would stay that age forever	08:04
stDavid	but, as they get older, there are more things you can do with them	08:05
stDavid	the trick is to stay close to them	08:05
+perlDreamer	yes. It's not easy to do.	08:05
stDavid	no, it's not, but	08:05
stDavid	always must try	08:06
stDavid	Well, I'm off to bed. I'll buzz you when I get a couple of free hours tomorrow. (You really wrote 39 POD's this weekend?)	08:07
+perlDreamer	yeah, check the svn history.	08:08
+perlDreamer	I didn't have to write them all,	08:08
+perlDreamer	just the missing ones	08:08
+perlDreamer	I type very fast	08:08
stDavid	I believe you, just makes my hands sweaty thinking about it though. Writing any documentation is beyond valor IMHO.	08:09
+perlDreamer	thanks :)	08:10
stDavid	YW - ttyl	08:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r11464 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/DataForm.pm: Add the rest of the missing POD to the DataForm.	08:37
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+bartjol	morning	10:55
Radix_	morning bart	11:29
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+bartjol	hey colin	17:41
+perlDreamer	Hey, bartjol!	17:41
+perlDreamer	How are you doing this week?	17:41
+bartjol	I was wondering something regarding internationalization	17:41
+perlDreamer	What is it?	17:41
+bartjol	well in march I had a small conversation with JT	17:41
+bartjol	on setting the language of a setting	17:42
+bartjol	my proposal was to use a scratch variable	17:42
+bartjol	which he was ok with	17:42
+bartjol	if it was documented and API'd	17:42
+bartjol	that is actually not the hard part	17:43
+bartjol	but	17:43
+bartjol	when the Internationalization partt gets the language	17:43
+bartjol	with thegetLanguage method	17:43
@Haarg	the language of a setting?	17:43
+bartjol	sorry, session	17:44
+bartjol	my bad	17:44
+bartjol	okl, during the retrieval, the language is given as a parameter	17:45
+bartjol	to that method	17:45
+bartjol	my question is:	17:45
+bartjol	what would be better, give the language as a parameter, or let the getLanguage method figure out what language to get	17:46
@Haarg	what do you