WebGUI irc logs from: 2007-01.log

--- Log opened Mon Jan 01 00:00:04 2007
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-!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 \| beta 7.3.2) \| WRE (0.7.2) \| Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki \| Questions? Ask and wait patiently \| Happy New Year everyone!		05:17
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--- Day changed Tue Jan 02 2007
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Radix-wrk	Hmm.. just realised why the webgui forum ratings are always screwed up	04:35
Radix-wrk	Visitor can rate forum posts up or down	04:35
Radix-wrk	Which means that every web crawler under the sun is effectively activating rate up/rate down at random and screwing up everyone's karma as a consequence	04:36
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Radix-wrk	I'd love to know how to add a page to the community wiki	06:55
Radix-wrk	LOL - http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help?sortBy=rating	07:11
Radix-wrk	a rating of 1994	07:11
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nutrino	Are there any known security bugs with webgui?	16:39
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ckotil	^ any known security bugs?	16:41
ckotil	yeah im having some major issues.	17:35
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+crythias	hmm	18:08
+crythias	HNY and all that.	18:08
ckotil	yup	18:18
ckotil	i get back to work and webgui has shit the fan	18:18
+crythias	question:	18:18
+crythias	I have some info/tutorials that I've found on the internet for aua-style buttons (web2.0/3d/gel buttons)	18:19
+crythias	aqua	18:19
+crythias	in ANY case	18:19
+crythias	the question is should a list (navigation) want to have same size buttons or size-per-entry?	18:20
ckotil	size-per-entry, as in customizeable sizes?	18:21
+crythias	yes	18:27
+crythias	because...	18:27
ckotil	could be usefull	18:28
ckotil	it'd be a nice additional feature	18:28
+crythias	people don't do this, but I know you can use a 1px wide repeating background with attached endcaps...	18:28
ckotil	im guilty	18:28
+crythias	I used this "trick" for the WebGUI 6 resizable theme, way back when.	18:29
ckotil	nice	18:36
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ckotil	damnit. i want the crawler bots to stop going through my http proxy	19:50
ckotil	i think its killing my site	19:50
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@preaction-m	ckotil: you hve a robots.txt?	20:18
ckotil	yes	21:50
ckotil	a good one	21:50
ckotil	i think i found teh prob	21:50
ckotil	fucking http proxy	21:50
ckotil	our log files are ~30mb each	21:52
ckotil	and its causing our whole server to seize when a crawler crawls the logs	21:52
ckotil	does that sound plausible?	21:53
@preaction-m	why ... how can a crawler get to the logs?	21:59
+crythias	because http-access	21:59
@preaction-m	why are the logs under DocumentRoot? is that how the WRE does it?	22:00
ckotil	these are systems logs for researchers	22:02
ckotil	http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data.html	22:02
ckotil	bgp rib dumps	22:02
ckotil	igp state dumps	22:02
ckotil	etc...	22:02
ckotil	have you thought of how to proxy large files?	22:04
ckotil	it seems the http proxy asset is ... dumb when it comes to large files	22:04
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ckotil	temp files should be used for large file support, and use the in memory for smaller files	22:05
@preaction-m	the httpproxy asset is dumb, period. it should not be used for half as much as people use it for	22:09
@preaction-m	far better to open a vhost on a different port	22:09
ckotil	i like to use http proxy to bring content inline with my template	22:11
ckotil	i could use iframe, but that has its drawbacks & limitationst oo	22:12
@preaction-m	for simple informational pages, sure it works great. but people are trying to proxy CGI applications, binary files, etc...	22:13
ckotil	yup	22:13
ckotil	i tried the js http proxy	22:13
ckotil	that didnt work quite like id hoped	22:13
@preaction-m	there'd be a nice way for CGI applications to get "proxied" by having WebGUI execute the appropriate script with the appropriate arguments/data passed on STDIN	22:14
@preaction-m	as for binary files, or large files, that's best handled by another apache host/instance	22:14
ckotil	interesting	22:17
ckotil	using stdin eh?	22:17
ckotil	what types of stdin does webgui offer?	22:18
ckotil	outside of building a wobject	22:18
@preaction-m	it'd have to be a wobject	22:41
ckotil	:{	22:42
ckotil	well thats the next step	22:42
@preaction-m	call it an "Exec" or "CGI" wobject, build in some protections to allow only certain parameters to be passed, allow programs that don't use CGI to be called (normal CLI programs, perhaps)	22:42
ckotil	yeah. they will start out very simple at first	22:43
ckotil	hell my first attempt at building a wobject, printed text and did an evaluation	22:44
ckotil	i havent made one that accepts input. thats the next step	22:44
ckotil	how hard is it to allow users to switch between templates for a page?	22:45
@preaction-m	on a per-user basis?	22:45
ckotil	i.e. it defaults to one page and i want to give users the option of using a different template	22:45
ckotil	i recently updated my template to scale the entire width of your screen	22:45
@preaction-m	i'm not sure if template form inputs are valid for user profiles, but that'd be the best way	22:46
ckotil	or plain scale to whatever size you desire. some people dont like this and id like to have a button tey can click to use the old template	22:46
ckotil	is that possible?	22:46
@preaction-m	sure it's possible, javascript could do it	22:47
ckotil	;]	22:47
ckotil	cool i think i know how. use js to store and set the template varibale/url to whatever?	22:48
@preaction-m	actually it'd be more use javascript to decide which CSS file to get	22:48
@preaction-m	but that might work too, the two different URLs, but that'd be bad	22:48
ckotil	they use the same css	22:49
ckotil	i made sure of that.	22:49
ckotil	whatd be bad about itt?	22:49
ckotil	url to the template that is.	22:49
ckotil	or is that determined even before the page loads?	22:49
@preaction-m	that's determined before any data is sent to the user	22:49
ckotil	hrm...	22:49
ckotil	so how would i use js to change that?	22:50
@preaction-m	it'd be bad because you'd have to maintain two versions of the same asset, but if one was a shortcut to the other with an override....	22:50
ckotil	yeah...fuuuuck that	22:50
@preaction-m	that'd be best actually, one a shortcut to the other, with a template override	22:50
ckotil	it could be done with css tho	22:50
ckotil	i could have 2 css's and force widths to the one template. yeah, i could do it.	22:51
ckotil	oh use shortcut assets?	22:51
ckotil	sick.	22:51
ckotil	& easy	22:51
vidar_	what are you trying to do?	23:23
ckotil	have 2 templates. that users can choose from	23:37
ckotil	im not worried about it tho.	23:37
ckotil	im heading home. ttyl	23:37
vidar_	better do that with js	23:38
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@rizen	by a show of angry fists...how many people are actually here right now?	01:27
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xdanger	\o/	01:41
-!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 8 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]		01:41
@rizen	wahoo!!	01:41
@rizen	we've got a live one here!	01:42
xdanger	=)	01:42
xdanger	wazzup?	01:42
@rizen	nothing at all	01:43
xdanger	mmmm'k	01:43
@rizen	was just wondering if anyone in that list is actually a real person	01:43
@rizen	or if they're all bots	01:43
@rizen	methinks we should put this channel to some good use	01:43
@rizen	and i was just wondering where we stand at this point	01:43
@rizen	apparently, mostly dead in the water	01:43
@rizen	so starting from scratch	01:44
xdanger	I'm just running irssin inside a screen so i'm "online" 24/7	01:44
xdanger	It's a pity that webgui doesn't have a more active community	01:52
@rizen	it's going to have	01:52
@rizen	that's what i'm talking about	01:53
xdanger	but... If you take a look at some php-crap, it's a good thing too ;)	01:53
@rizen	this is part of my new years resolution for webgui	01:53
@rizen	we will have a much stronger community by the end of 2007	01:53
xdanger	there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for joomla! for examble	01:53
xdanger	example	01:53
@rizen	yup	01:54
@rizen	part of the reason people think that the community is small for webgui	01:54
@rizen	is that webgui has so many more features than most of it's competitors	01:54
@rizen	it doesn't need as many plugins	01:54
@rizen	cuz it already has that stuff built in	01:54
xdanger	there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for <insert something made with php based on a community> for example	01:54
@rizen	true...	01:54
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@rizen	but people using webgui are using it to do real work	01:55
@rizen	they aren't using it for their family home page for the most part	01:55
@rizen	that's the difference between us and joomla	01:55
@rizen	webgui gets shit done	01:55
xdanger	there's not a lot of "whisels and bells" (cant type that correctly) in webgui, but you can do thouse with a couple of plugins&template alterations =)	01:55
@rizen	what kinds of whistles and bells would you like?	01:56
xdanger	yup, I acctually was thinking of doing a "family page" with webgui... and have each member have their own pages and galleries...	01:56
@rizen	yeah, i'm sorry...i didn't mean to say that you can't use it for your family home page	01:57
@rizen	i use it for mine	01:57
xdanger	not me... my clients say that this doesn't have something and I think about it overnight and then tell them 2-4 different ways to acomplish their goal...	01:57
@rizen	just that most of our users are business and colleges	01:57
@rizen	not home users	01:57
xdanger	yup, webgui - not for beginners administrators...	01:58
xdanger	whou wre has helped a lot	01:58
@rizen	yup, templates give you a lot of power	01:58
@rizen	this month and next i'm writing a whole new wre	01:58
@rizen	with GUI management tools	01:58
@rizen	i'm hoping to have it out the door by march	01:59
xdanger	nice... so Is that the 0.8 that someone talked about?	01:59
@rizen	yes	01:59
@rizen	we'll probably put out a few more 0.7 patches	01:59
xdanger	ok, so can stop waiting for that =)	01:59
@rizen	but no new dev is going into that	01:59
@rizen	all new dev is going into wre 0.8	01:59
xdanger	Just before christmas I was just testing our upgrade path 6.8.10->7.2.3...	02:00
xdanger	I'm a bit worried about spectre	02:00
xdanger	is it stable/safe	02:00
xdanger	I know that you have tested it and so one, but still =)	02:01
@rizen	to be honest i'm worried about spectre too	02:01
@rizen	it's not as good as it needs to be	02:01
@rizen	but i wouldn't have known that if i didn't release it	02:01
@rizen	now that it's out in the wild, i can see how people are using it	02:01
@rizen	and what problems they're having	02:01
xdanger	a server writen in perl is something that I'm not comfortable with	02:02
@rizen	so now i can make improvements	02:02
@rizen	oh...that's not a problem	02:02
@rizen	i've written dozens of those	02:02
@rizen	they're as stable and safe as anything els	02:02
@rizen	e	02:02
@rizen	if written correctly	02:02
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xdanger	yeah, I know that they work and so one, but still...	02:02
cap10morgan	Is there a way to edit a style template via the API?	02:03
@rizen	spectre is my first attempt at writing a POE based server	02:03
cap10morgan	or even just access one and then put a different one back? (i.e. edit it via other means)	02:03
xdanger	I'm did some reading on perlbal and mogilefs, and It's crazy that they wrote thouse in perl =D	02:03
@rizen	yes there is cap	02:03
cap10morgan	rizen: great	02:03
@rizen	here's how it works	02:03
@rizen	my $template = WebGUI::Asset->new($session, $assetId, "WebGUI::Asset::Template", $version);	02:04
xdanger	when I tested POE, it wasn't so stable then... and the progres was a littee stale at the begining...	02:04
@rizen	You can leave off $version if you just want to retrieve the most recent one	02:04
@rizen	then you just do	02:04
@rizen	$template->addRevision({template=>$newTemplateCode});	02:05
cap10morgan	rizen: cool, makes sense. thank you.	02:05
@rizen	After you've made that edit	02:05
@rizen	you'll have to commit	02:05
xdanger	and commit? or does that commit?	02:05
@rizen	you can either do that vie code	02:05
xdanger	o =)	02:05
@rizen	via code	02:05
@rizen	or you can do it via the web interface	02:05
@rizen	doing it via code works like this:	02:06
cap10morgan	right	02:06
@rizen	WebGUI::VersionTag->getWorking($session)->commit;	02:06
@rizen	That's the one liner	02:06
@rizen	To commit the current working tag.	02:06
cap10morgan	cool, i think i'm all set then. thanks	02:07
@rizen	xdanger: perlbal is amazing	02:07
@rizen	np cap	02:07
xdanger	It is...	02:08
xdanger	Have you taken a look at gearman? from "danga" also...	02:08
xdanger	You could use that for a base for something like spectre	02:08
@rizen	yes i did look at that before i built spectre	02:09
xdanger	didn't fit your needs?	02:09
@rizen	it would have worked great for spectre if i wanted to run spectre stand alone	02:09
@rizen	but i decided that i wanted to use the webgui nodes	02:09
@rizen	as the worker bees	02:09
@rizen	rather than starting seperate worker bee servers	02:09
@rizen	which is what gearman does	02:10
xdanger	ok	02:10
@rizen	i figured you already have the webgui codebase loaded into memory in apache	02:10
@rizen	why load it again into gearman servers	02:10
@rizen	just wasting memory...know what i mean?	02:10
xdanger	and spectres jobs aren't that heavy lifting... we'll maybe mail stuff...	02:10
Radix-wrk	spectre seems to randomly die on our server - no error messages or anything to say why - I've got a cron job to restart it every morning just in case.	02:10
@rizen	even mail isn't heavy	02:10
xdanger	yup	02:10
@rizen	sorry to hear that radix	02:11
xdanger	That's what I'm also worried about...	02:11
@rizen	is there anything in your log that would indicate what's up?	02:11
Radix-wrk	simple fix at least :)	02:11
@rizen	also, if you're using the webgui runtime environment	02:11
@rizen	it will autorestart spectre	02:11
@rizen	if it dies	02:11
@rizen	just like it does with apache and mysql	02:11
xdanger	but you have desinged it "the-right-way" that it runs the jobs when it's restored...	02:12
Radix-wrk	using WRE here, but not the wremonitor - as it never worked for me	02:12
Radix-wrk	the wremonitor would continually restart spectre	02:12
Radix-wrk	still using an older wre tho	02:12
Radix-wrk	not tried 0.7.2 yet	02:13
Radix-wrk	and using webgui 7.0.8	02:13
@rizen	spectre is much better in later versions	02:13
@rizen	also, be sure to upgrade to the latest POE and POE::Component::IKC	02:13
@rizen	as they have fixed a lot of bugs	02:13
@rizen	that were causing spectre problems	02:14
Radix-wrk	that in wre 0.7.2?	02:14
@rizen	yes	02:14
Radix-wrk	okey.. might have to give that a go sometime then	02:14
@rizen	but you can also do that from cpan	02:14
Radix-wrk	we've been pretty happy with our setup, so not needed to upgrade really	02:14
@rizen	understandable	02:14
@rizen	once 7.3 comes out stable	02:14
@rizen	you really should upgrade	02:15
@rizen	we're fixing lots and lots of bugs	02:15
@rizen	in this release	02:15
Radix-wrk	cool	02:15
@rizen	i'll be announcing my new years resolution for webgui on the dev mailing list in the next week or so	02:15
@rizen	and it's all about stabilizing webgui	02:15
@rizen	making it more robust, and speedier	02:16
Radix-wrk	good to see you on irc a bit more too rizen :) - we're slowly getting more people on irc these days which is nice	02:16
@rizen	i plan to be on here a lot more	02:16
@rizen	i was really burned out at the end of last year	02:16
@rizen	so i needed to take a break for a while	02:16
Radix-wrk	hehe.. fair enough :)	02:16
@rizen	i worked for 3 years straight with no vacation	02:17
@rizen	and you can't do that when you put in the hours i do	02:17
Radix-wrk	yeah.. webgui 5-7 was a huge undertaking	02:17
Radix-wrk	you've done a great job tho :)	02:17
@rizen	thanks. i appreciate it.	02:19
@rizen	hopefully now that all that's done	02:19
@rizen	we can get back to building the community again	02:20
@rizen	and get webgui right back on track to being the best thing out there	02:20
xdanger	I'm amazed that you just didn't "start for scratch"	02:20
@rizen	i thought about it	02:20
@rizen	more than thought about it	02:20
@rizen	started architecting it	02:20
xdanger	since you rewrote all of it =)	02:20
@rizen	but then decided that i would eventually need to migrate all the content	02:20
@rizen	anywya	02:20
xdanger	I like most of your ideas...	02:20
@rizen	also...i figured that a lot of the code is good	02:21
@rizen	it just needed to be tweaked	02:21
xdanger	I desinged a hack for you... to implement multi-lingual content and stuff... but didn't have the time to make it readaple..	02:21
@rizen	so i decided it would be better to go evolutionary	02:21
@rizen	rather than revolutionary	02:21
@rizen	multi-lingual content?	02:22
xdanger	Our biggest problem is that finland is bilangual country...	02:22
@rizen	yeah, that's a problem i decided not to tackle	02:22
@rizen	cuz it was just too hard to do	02:22
@rizen	without making webgui slower	02:22
xdanger	Or at least finnish and english...	02:23
@rizen	if you can come up with some brilliance	02:23
@rizen	i'd love to see it	02:23
@rizen	maybe we can make it part of the core	02:23
xdanger	It can be disabled... but I have to digg up my notes... or my memories about that	02:24
@rizen	i'm sure you're not the only one that would want that	02:24
xdanger	I didn't implement it... I was thinking of building on the metadata that you allready have	02:24
@rizen	ah	02:25
xdanger	But, then I got to think that a special versioning system on top of the current could be better	02:25
xdanger	And that language selection could be writen over via simple ?changeLanguage=Fi url call	02:26
@rizen	well if you get your notes together, i'd love to hear your ideas	02:26
@rizen	i think it would be awesome if we could support it in a way that wouldn't cause performance issues	02:26
xdanger	I'll have to see next week...	02:26
xdanger	I think versioning could do that...	02:27
xdanger	cache is a problem then..	02:27
xdanger	you would have to check that it caches per language + object, not just object	02:27
xdanger	another problem is administrading it	02:29
xdanger	how would you edit it and so one...	02:29
@rizen	that's not a problem at all	02:30
@rizen	i have a solution for the editing that works pretty elegantly	02:30
@rizen	i just don't have a solution for storing/retrieving the data in a way that didn't cause massive performance problems	02:30
xdanger	A smaller obtion is to incorporate a meta tag that identifies what language should be used in the current branch, and tune the system function acording to that.. but this option is just buildin a different branch for each languge, not the "multi-lingual assetData"...	02:31
@rizen	right, that's what we recommend people doing now	02:32
@rizen	basically that you build out your english or whatever under one branch	02:33
xdanger	And many are going to do a different branch anyway... because some don't have identical structure for each language	02:33
@rizen	then you create a package out of it	02:33
@rizen	and deploy	02:33
@rizen	that's also true	02:33
@rizen	other problems are that sometimes you need the pages to appear in the navigation in a different order	02:33
@rizen	due to cultural differences	02:33
xdanger	the problem with the branches is that error's and system texts are in the visitors language, not the branch preferred language..	02:34
@rizen	that's a common problem in the US between the english and spanish speaking americans	02:34
@rizen	true...but that can be fixed pretty easily	02:34
xdanger	o, didn't even think that...	02:34
xdanger	What I think is needed is some way to "link" the different lang-brances together...	02:35
xdanger	saying that en/home and fi/koti are the "same" page in different languages	02:36
xdanger	And maybe a fallback for some pages...	02:36
xdanger	well no.. not fallbacks...	02:36
xdanger	something like shortcut asset that would override the context =)	02:37
xdanger	I'm just thinking alout here...	02:37
cap10morgan	stupid question time: once i have the WebGUI::Asset object for my template, it's not clear to me how I grab the actual text of the template (i.e. the contents of the template field in the db)	02:38
cap10morgan	ah, obj->getValue('template') seems to work nicely	02:40
@rizen	oh sorry	02:41
@rizen	yes	02:41
@rizen	getValue	02:41
@rizen	or just plain get()	02:41
@rizen	will also work	02:41
cap10morgan	cool, thanks	02:41
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xdanger	rizen: one question came to mind... was brushing my teeth...	02:49
@rizen	k	02:49
xdanger	Why did you impleme storage in CS?	02:49
xdanger	and not do the attachments as assets?	02:49
@rizen	Performance	02:49
@rizen	They were originally implemented as seperate assets	02:49
@rizen	but doing that actually caused the viewing of posts to slow down by quite a bit	02:50
xdanger	This way you can't link to them inside webgui...	02:50
@rizen	because then i had to query each post for it's childrenn	02:50
@rizen	i understand that	02:50
@rizen	that's the downside	02:50
@rizen	i wanted to implement them as assets	02:50
@rizen	but it was just too slow	02:50
@rizen	same reason i switched them back on article as well	02:50
@rizen	incidentally..you do have the option of not allowing attachments directly on the cs	02:51
@rizen	and then giving people access to your media folder	02:51
@rizen	or a folder under media	02:51
@rizen	to upload their cs attachments to	02:51
xdanger	couldn't you have just cached the select * from asset where lineage like '000000000100000001000000001%' and (className = 'post' or classname=file) ?	02:51
@rizen	yes	02:51
@rizen	that's what i did	02:51
@rizen	but you're not getting it	02:51
@rizen	it has to be done per asset	02:51
@rizen	and more importantly thatn that	02:52
@rizen	it's not the query	02:52
@rizen	but the actual instanciation of the object	02:52
@rizen	just trust me	02:52
@rizen	it was too slow	02:52
@rizen	i wrote it	02:52
@rizen	i know	02:52
xdanger	ok	02:52
@rizen	it more than doubled the load time of a 4 post thread	02:52
@rizen	and it got far worse than that on large threads	02:53
xdanger	just that couldn't you have left out "the actual instanciation of the object" and just load the right data for the picture in the query...	02:54
@rizen	that's circumventing the api	02:54
xdanger	but I think I know why that wouldn't work..	02:54
@rizen	which means that i'd forever be updating two code bases	02:54
xdanger	that "tweaking" =)	02:54
@rizen	i already have a code base for accessing the data	02:54
@rizen	yeah	02:54
@rizen	we have 200k lines of code in webgui	02:55
@rizen	don't you think that's enough?	02:55
xdanger	hell no!	02:55
xdanger	more features ;)	02:55
Radix-wrk	pfft.. 200k lines is nothing ;)	02:55
@rizen	for a web app	02:55
@rizen	that's enormous	02:55
@rizen	granted...it's no where near the 50m lines of code in MS Vista	02:55
xdanger	my biggest project was something like 7k + lot of templates	02:56
xdanger	that was a forum software writen in perl =)	02:56
@rizen	was it better than the CS?	02:56
xdanger	It was faster =D	02:56
xdanger	but no...	02:56
@rizen	the cs would be faster if it didn't have so many features	02:56
@rizen	i really need to subclass that thing down	02:57
@rizen	so it doesn't have to do so much	02:57
@rizen	or so that it does only what it needs to do in any given context	02:57
xdanger	rizen: I was thinking of writing a asset called "Gallery" in the spirit of Apache::Gallery... it would take in a folder in webgui tree and make that in to a gallery of it's content...	02:58
Radix-wrk	we've got about 2m loc here.. all c/c++ code tho	02:58
@rizen	xdanger...sounds like a great plan	02:58
@rizen	we could really use a real photo gallery	02:58
@rizen	provided it was ass kicking	02:58
@rizen	radix: yeah c is pretty verbose compared to perl though	02:59
@rizen	=)	02:59
xdanger	that's my work-around for the cs-pictures-not-in-tree thing =)	02:59
@rizen	a real photo gallery is on my wish list for webgui	02:59
@rizen	but there's a lot of things on my wishlist	02:59
@rizen	and only one of me	02:59
xdanger	overwriting folder,file and file::image assets...	02:59
@rizen	we need peeps like you that are willing to contribute	03:00
Radix-wrk	hey I got a wierd email this morning from plainblack btw	03:01
xdanger	just that I don't have the time =P	03:01
Radix-wrk	titled "[bugs] untitled" with the content "has posted to one of your subscriptions	03:01
Radix-wrk	http://www.plainblack.com/N7oXtEkZG5MJuSM8Gj-vXw"	03:01
xdanger	ou, yeah... there are weird post popping up on CS... the have untitled as a title and that url	03:02
Radix-wrk	no name given, and the url doesn't work	03:02
xdanger	have had that problem with 6.8 ;)	03:02
Radix-wrk	Hmm.. just tried to add a wiki page and got told I don't have sufficient privileges :(	03:04
@rizen	sorry about that cs post	03:06
@rizen	add a wiki page to what?	03:06
Radix-wrk	to the community wiki	03:06
@rizen	are you logged in?	03:06
Radix-wrk	yep	03:06
xdanger	rizen: what is causing those posts?	03:06
Radix-wrk	logged in as Jesse	03:06
Radix-wrk	at http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki?func=add;class=WebGUI::Asset::WikiPage	03:06
Radix-wrk	but when I hit Save it tells me Permission Denied - don't have sufficient privileges	03:07
+crythias	I'm curious about something.	03:08
@rizen	crap	03:08
@rizen	yeah, i just saw that	03:08
@rizen	we just upgraded and there's a new bug it would appear	03:08
Radix-wrk	okey.. least it isn't just me then :)	03:09
Radix-wrk	crythias, I'm curious about everything. ;)	03:09
+crythias	heh.	03:09
+crythias	There's a news article about CDL...	03:09
@rizen	crythias: what's up bud?	03:10
+crythias	Just, where's CDL's mention of WebGUI?	03:10
@rizen	what do you mean?	03:10
@rizen	the article mentions webgui several times	03:10
+crythias	CDL's enthusiasm and resourcefulness with WebGUI recently paid off when they were recognized with a WOW Award from	03:11
+crythias	http://www.wcet.info/membership/awards/wow.asp	03:11
@rizen	oh	03:11
@rizen	true enough	03:11
@rizen	who knows why it's not there	03:11
@rizen	it would be nice	03:11
@rizen	but i certainly can't force them to do it	03:11
@rizen	it's their award	03:11
@rizen	not webgui's	03:12
@rizen	though webgui contributed to it	03:12
+crythias	certainly agree.	03:12
Radix-wrk	the WCET guys don't need to know HOW they did the website though in order to see it's good	03:12
+crythias	really?	03:12
+crythias	because they aren't using the <tmpl_var header>	03:13
@rizen	crythias...though it would be nice if you linked to webgui from your site when you win the "WebGUI Contributor of the Year" award this year	03:13
@rizen	i won't require you to do it	03:13
@rizen	=)	03:13
+crythias	all my major sites link to webgui :)	03:13
+crythias	pcanywhere doesn't link, and norton antivirus free downloads don't link...	03:14
+crythias	but my faq certainly does :)	03:14
@rizen	your faq rocks	03:14
+crythias	Thanks.	03:15
+crythias	it's getting ... old, though.	03:15
@rizen	you mean, outdated?	03:15
+crythias	yeah.	03:15
Radix-wrk	that's where the wiki would be good to get going	03:16
+crythias	I haven't had enough 7.x info to rework it.	03:16
Radix-wrk	we can all try and keep it updated	03:16
-!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 \| beta 7.3.3) \| WRE (0.7.2) \| Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki \| Questions? Ask and wait patiently \| Happy New Year everyone!		03:16
+crythias	still no News release	03:17
+crythias	btw.. rizen, who are you and what have you done with JT?	03:17
Radix-wrk	I just got the sf.net notification ;)	03:17
@rizen	what do you mean?	03:17
Radix-wrk	heh	03:18
+crythias	What did I do to get nice accolades from you?	03:19
@rizen	what nice accolades?	03:19
@rizen	you mean the contributor of the year award?	03:19
xdanger	haha, most used word in this channel is... webgui! 1894 times =P	03:19
xdanger	weird =D	03:20
xdanger	usually it's somethinkin like "is" "but"	03:20
Radix-wrk	Speaking of awards - when's doug's interview going to be up in 'People Behind WebGUI'	03:20
@rizen	is is is is is is is is is is is	03:20
xdanger	Ou... maybe the stats generator leaves thouse out...	03:20
@rizen	perhaps it is is now	03:21
@rizen	whenever doug fills out his interview	03:21
xdanger	enjoy: http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui	03:21
@rizen	he'll be here tommorrow	03:21
@rizen	i'll force him then	03:21
@rizen	=)	03:21
@rizen	anyway...gotta go	03:21
+crythias	http://www.gwy2.org/fomfiles/cache/52.html	03:21
@rizen	wow xdanger	03:22
@rizen	very ncie	03:22
@rizen	ok..now i really need to go	03:22
Radix-wrk	cool :)	03:22
Radix-wrk	cya	03:22
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Radix-wrk	Hmm.. another wierd one from plainblack just came through 'Announcement: untitled'	03:23
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-!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 \| beta 7.3.3) \| WRE (0.7.2) \| Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki \| Questions? Ask and wait patiently \| http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui		04:30
@preaction-m	force ME to fill out an interview? do i have to take a pichar too?	06:01
Radix-wrk	hehe	06:38
Radix-wrk	yup - or you could pay me to fly over there and take your pic, but you could buy a professional DSLR, nice lens, tripod and remote for that price ;)	06:39
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@preaction-m	but, but, there's a camera on my new compydore	09:00
Radix-wrk	So what's stopping ya then! :)	09:17
@preaction-m	nothing really, except the fear of people from New Zealand stalking me	09:18
Radix-wrk	yeah, kiwi's are a wierd bunch	09:45
@preaction-m	i suppose since our little soiree starts in 5 hours i should get some sleep...	09:46
Radix-wrk	nite then :)	09:48
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:10:20 2007
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:52:38 2007
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ckotil	fuck http proxy	18:01
ckotil	it shoudl be rewritten....intelligentaly	18:01
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ckotil	im reall pissed off at http proxy	18:42
+perlDreamer	why?	18:42
ckotil	if only i had known the consequences i wouldnt have used it	18:42
ckotil	its DoS just waiting to happen	18:42
ckotil	everytime	18:42
ckotil	granted, since i stopped proxying 30mb syslog files	18:44
ckotil	the DOS has been slowed down	18:44
ckotil	but i launced 3 instances of my webcrawler to my site and it killed the box	18:45
+perlDreamer	and you think it's because of the http proxy?	18:47
ckotil	i know it is	18:47
+perlDreamer	do they all hang on the same URL?	18:47
ckotil	when it rewrites urls	18:47
ckotil	the crawler just goes on and on	18:47
ckotil	and it eventually hits some big ass file	18:47
ckotil	and then a million httpd proccesses get spawned as a result	18:47
ckotil	~50*	18:47
ckotil	hrm turning off rewrite urls might help	18:47
+perlDreamer	well, the http proxy is just a web browser.	18:48
ckotil	yah. i think it shoudl be more intelligent	18:48
ckotil	i.e. check the size of files before retrieving them	18:49
ckotil	if over certain size, then do not proxy them. just link	18:49
ckotil	that would solve my problems. i think	18:49
+perlDreamer	do you hack perl?	18:50
ckotil	not much.	18:50
+perlDreamer	if you filed an RFE with a patch it would probably get accepted more quickly than without it	18:50
ckotil	yeaha.	18:51
ckotil	im just not 100% what im proposing would solve my problems	18:51
ckotil	but i do know for a fact that the proxying of pages is fucking up my chi	18:51
ckotil	via http proxy	18:51
+perlDreamer	can you pull that asset from your site or limit it somehow?	18:52
ckotil	i use it in too many places	18:52
ckotil	im going through and using iframe or turning off rewrite urls	18:52
ckotil	thats teh REAL culprit. rewriting urls	18:53
ckotil	i wish i knew webgui well enough to issue a sql statement turning off rewrite url	18:55
ckotil	instead of clicking through it all via the web interface	18:55
+perlDreamer	in all HTTP Proxy's?	18:55
+perlDreamer	that's pretty easy to do	18:55
ckotil	yes. all. i dont want no stinking rewrite url. im sure it is, but i wouldnt know what tables to look in	18:55
+perlDreamer	update HttpProxy set rewriteUrls=0;	18:58
+perlDreamer	it's just 1 table since it's specific to this Asset.	18:58
ckotil	mmm.	18:58
ckotil	thanks man	18:58
+perlDreamer	no sweat	18:58
+perlDreamer	just try giving the HttpProxy a hack to limit file sizes and see if it helps	18:59
ckotil	i dont think it will.	19:00
ckotil	bc it was freezeing on our weather map whcih is only a couple hundredK	19:00
ckotil	KB's	19:00
ckotil	its just the amount of proxying its doing	19:00
ckotil	the crawler goes deep	19:00
ckotil	bc it ignores the configuration for some reason. i use htcheck	19:01
ckotil	will i need to clear the cache after that sql statement?	19:28
+perlDreamer	no, but you should restart the server	19:32
ckotil	k	19:34
ckotil	i think ive manually turned off url rewrite and the server is holding up now with 2 instances of htcheck	19:35
ckotil	hamemring the shit out of the site	19:35
+perlDreamer	just out of curiousity, how many clients is each instance of htcheck simulating?	20:40
+perlDreamer	are any of the PB staff around?	21:27
+perlDreamer	I think I can fix a bug, but it may slow down the macro processing	21:27
ckotil	oh man	22:26
ckotil	wtf.	22:26
ckotil	http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falivealert.com	22:26
ckotil	http proxy is an OPEN PROXY	22:26
ckotil	perlDreamer: not sure how many clients each instance creates	22:27
ckotil	http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2fplainblack.com	22:30
ckotil	aww that one didnt work.	22:31
ckotil	hrmm	22:31
ckotil	http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falterslash.org	22:33
+perlDreamer	that's not an open relay, that's overriding the default URL.	23:25
+perlDreamer	In an open relay, you should be able to fetch the URL of your choice from anywhere.	23:25
ckotil	i dont see the differnce	23:31
+perlDreamer	think about it in terms of email	23:31
+perlDreamer	you want to be able to send and receive email from anywhere	23:31
+perlDreamer	but you don't want everyone being able to use your email server	23:31
xdanger	o fuck, and fuck again... my php guy quit...	23:51
xdanger	and the project is behind schedule...	23:51
xdanger	yeay!	23:51
+perlDreamer	I don't suppose using perl is an option?	23:53
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@preaction-m	./mode #webgui +o rizzo	17:17
@rizzo	BUG FIX DAY!!!!	17:17
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@rizzo	Steve!	17:18
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@preaction-m	frank with the high-quality nickname :p	17:27
@n1cks3rv3sux	nothing is available and now some jackass has registered my nick	17:28
@preaction-m	./msg nickserv help	17:28
@preaction-m	./msg nickserv help register	17:29
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@preaction-m	someone should give me founder access, or at least access enough to change access levels	19:11
@preaction-m	so i can add khenn (frank) and meatbot (steve)	19:11
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bopbop	hello everyone!	19:12
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@preaction-m	With great power comes great responsibility: Use your +o wisely	19:14
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@preaction-m	:p	19:16
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perlm	What is driving the extremely rapid development of WebGUI? It seems like a new beta is released every two weeks.	20:08
@preaction-m	it's more: what is keeping it beta and not stable, and those are bugs	20:11
@rizen	we have a 1 week maintenance cycle	20:11
@preaction-m	we're changing from a weekly release cycle i believe, we're in our yearly staff meeting, which is why there's a population here	20:11
@rizen	meaning, that we put out a new release every week	20:11
@rizen	the new release is to put out bug fixes	20:11
@rizen	however, if the bugs are signifcant enough	20:12
@rizen	then we can't in good concience release it as stable	20:12
@rizen	so we put out new betas	20:12
@rizen	so people can test with the newly fixed bugs	20:12
@rizen	or use the new beta in production if they are either daring or stupid or both	20:12
@rizen	=)(	20:12
perlm	I live on the edge. We'll be going production with your Betas :D	20:12
@rizen	We run our betas as well	20:16
@rizen	We figure if we can't run it, then no one else should either	20:16
@rizen	But the difference is, that we know how to fix it if all hell breaks loose	20:16
@rizen	and most people done	20:16
@rizen	don't	20:16
@rizen	so we don't recommend that anyone ever use the betas in production	20:16
perlm	I'll just make sure to take a snapshot of the DB before we turn the users loose.	20:17
@preaction-m	recommended with every upgrade	20:17
@rizen	keep very regular backups	20:17
@rizen	at least nightly	20:17
perlm	I'm just pumped that I finally got the okay to migrate to WebGUI. Woot.	20:18
perlm	Hope the meeting goes well, I'm off to lunch.	20:18
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--- Day changed Sat Jan 06 2007
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@rizen	Doo doo doo do doooo	00:35
@rizen	Pinky and the Brain	00:36
@rizen	Pinky and the Brain	00:36
@rizen	One is a genius	00:36
@rizen	The other's insane	00:36
@rizen	They're pinky and the brain	00:36
@rizen	pinky and the brain	00:36
@rizen	pinky and the brain brain brain brain brain	00:36
@snapcount	BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to rizen	01:06
* snapcount kicks rizen with a stale trout		01:06
@rizen	snapcount goes down faster than a thai hooker	01:07
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@snapcount	weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee	01:41
+perlDreamer	maybe I should add that particular condition to the macro test to see what's going on.	01:41
@preaction-m	hooray for public declaration!	01:41
@snapcount	so the first step is to see if the returned quotes actually break nesting	01:41
@snapcount	then we discuss RFE or Bug	01:41
* preaction-m submits a Freedom of Information Act Request		01:41
+perlDreamer	what do you wanna know?	01:42
@preaction-m	eh, just interested to keep watching and input if necesserary	01:42
+perlDreamer	snapcount, I'm pretty sure it's quotes due to the regex on lines 139-141	01:42
@rizen	is(1+1, 2, "Check my math.");	01:42
@preaction-m	401 Forbidden	01:43
* perlDreamer is haunted by bad WUC talk examples		01:43
@snapcount	JT says it's not an RFE or Bug	01:44
+perlDreamer	also, btw, I tried caching Macro compiles to get rid of the eval in WebGUI::Macro::process and it actually slowed things down.	01:44
@snapcount	unless you have a way to fix it that rulez	01:44
+perlDreamer	I	01:44
+perlDreamer	uh	01:44
+perlDreamer	hmmmm....	01:44
@snapcount	smarter macro parcer ++	01:44
+perlDreamer	Rexexp::Common::Balanced?	01:45
@snapcount	I'm not familiar with it	01:45
@snapcount	does it rock your socks off?	01:45
+perlDreamer	It looks like it could be our smarter parser	01:46
+perlDreamer	but maybe so could Text::CSV since that's essentially what the macro args are	01:46
@preaction-m	might I suggest WebGUI::Text qw( :csv );?	01:47
+perlDreamer	qw(splitCSV) ?	01:47
@preaction-m	or that, :csv exports them both	01:47
+perlDreamer	nm, I see the export tag now	01:47
+perlDreamer	sorry, my bad	01:47
+perlDreamer	ooh	01:48
+perlDreamer	need to change that warn to something else using session	01:48
+perlDreamer	in splitCSV	01:49
+perlDreamer	preaction-m: do you want me to log that as a bug or do you want to fix it up?	01:50
@preaction-m	perlDreamer: no, WebGUI::Text doesn't get a Session object	01:53
+perlDreamer	dude, it needs one.	01:53
@preaction-m	we're also doing something different with error handling/trapping	01:53
@preaction-m	no it doesn't	01:53
@preaction-m	it would only need it for error handling	01:53
+perlDreamer	so some errors get thrown to error.log and some get thrown to webgui.log?	01:53
+perlDreamer	today	01:54
@preaction-m	basically, at the moment at least	01:54
@preaction-m	we've got the new WebGUI (Perl) Best Practices book	01:54
+perlDreamer	and it recommends handling error logging differently?	01:55
+perlDreamer	btw, the only place WebGUI uses bare warn is in the Config.pm	01:56
@preaction-m	well, it showed that Perl can do try/catch, apparently that was unknown around here :P	01:56
@preaction-m	and croak and carp for stack traces	01:56
@preaction-m	so the warn is wrong, it should carp, we might have to redirect $SIG{warn} to output to the proper webgui.log	01:57
+perlDreamer	do you want that logged as a bug, then, so we don't forget to do it?	01:59
@preaction-m	idk, it's not really a bug, it's just sometimes you have to go to the modperl error log to get some errors	02:00
@preaction-m	perhaps once we decide what's going on with error handling in WebGUI, we'll be able to go back and make sure everything's kosher	02:01
@preaction-m	perhaps a comment in the source	02:01
+perlDreamer	I'll let you handle it	02:01
@preaction-m	kk	02:01
+perlDreamer	I'll add some more tests to Macro.pm and then see how WebGUI::Text::splitCSV does	02:10
+perlDreamer	maybe some benchmarking, too	02:10
+perlDreamer	although sometimes slow is better than broken	02:10
@preaction-m	but fast is better than slow	02:11
+perlDreamer	like, breaks faster than breaks slower?	02:11
+perlDreamer	most times ;)	02:11
+perlDreamer	actually, I won't	02:16
@preaction-m	indian giver	02:17
+perlDreamer	splitCSV does internal escaping differently from the Macro processor	02:17
+perlDreamer	for the Macro arg processor, we need something that obeys backslashes	02:17
@preaction-m	according to the unofficial RFC for CSV	02:17
@preaction-m	Text::Balanced might be prudent	02:17
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+perlDreamer	Text::Balanced is slow, at least for extracting codeblocks.	02:24
+perlDreamer	I think I'll give Text::CSV and Regexp::Common a whirl	02:24
@preaction-m	Text::CSV will probably pull the same escaping crap	02:24
+perlDreamer	it does	02:29
+perlDreamer	that means it's time to go home and sleep on it for a while	02:29
+perlDreamer	g'night, all	02:29
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@snapcount	Reeeeekollllllllaaaaaaa	04:35
@rizen	plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is	04:36
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* snapcount yawns		17:21
@snapcount	top of tha mornin to everyone	17:21
Radix__	evenin' ;)	17:21
@snapcount	ahh yes	17:21
@snapcount	Australia still hasn't fixed their sun being out of synch with Florida problem	17:22
@snapcount	=)	17:22
Radix__	yeah.. we need a daylight saving + 12 or something I guess	17:23
Radix__	we're having enough of a problem with daylight saving + 1 atm ;)	17:24
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--- Day changed Sun Jan 07 2007
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perlm	anyone know any tricks for installing DBIx::FullTextSearch on a vanilla Fedora Core 5 machine/	02:00
@rizen	it's a bastard to install on any platform	02:00
@rizen	that's why webgui doesn't use it anymore	02:00
perlm	it is still required in testEnvironment.pl	02:04
perlm	so I guess that means it is okay that I forced it to install even with errors.	02:04
@rizen	in what version?	02:04
perlm	latest beta	02:04
perlm	7.3.3	02:04
@rizen	hmm...i'll check that out	02:04
@rizen	thanks for letting me know	02:05
@rizen	it's out in 7.3.4	02:05
@rizen	as of now	02:05
perlm	de nada	02:05
perlm	heh, cool	02:05
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rizen_	test	18:20
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+perlDreamer	morning	19:04
@rizen	is it really morning?	19:04
+perlDreamer	it is out here	19:04
@rizen	it feels like bedtime	19:04
@rizen	me = tired	19:04
+perlDreamer	up late?	19:05
@rizen	no...just a little sick	19:05
@rizen	which has been draining me for the last couple of weeks	19:05
@rizen	almost over it now thow	19:05
@rizen	though	19:06
+perlDreamer	weeks? That's nutz.	19:06
@rizen	yeah	19:06
@rizen	sux	19:06
+perlDreamer	I tried to fix Klaus's double header bug, and think I found the cause of it, but want to double check it with someone more familiar with chunking and header generation. Game?	19:07
@rizen	k	19:07
@rizen	first	19:08
@rizen	what is the bug	19:08
@rizen	point me to a url or something	19:08
Klaus_	Hi!	19:08
+perlDreamer	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/head-block-displayed-twice#3tLVLsiwMsgY0ZCULum18A	19:08
Klaus_	the entry in the Extra Header field of a style is displayed doube in source.	19:09
+perlDreamer	Klaus_: we should have you fixed up in a jiffy	19:09
Klaus_	I think we had this bug in one of the 6er versions already fixed.	19:09
@rizen	it doesn't sound familiar	19:10
@rizen	there was a problem where	19:10
@rizen	you could get double HTTP headers	19:10
@rizen	but HTTP headers are different than head block tags	19:10
@rizen	and the double http headers were fixed a while ago	19:10
@rizen	ok...so you have a possible solution here	19:11
@rizen	what is it?	19:11
+perlDreamer	remove line 193 from WebGUI::Session::Style.pm	19:11
+perlDreamer	uh, 198	19:11
@rizen	198 out of svn or version 7.3.3?	19:12
+perlDreamer	svn	19:12
Klaus_	My workaround was writing the tags direct into the style, not into the extra field below - but thank you for the hint removing this line from code.-	19:12
+perlDreamer	well, I'm not sure there won't be some undesired side effects	19:13
+perlDreamer	that's why I'm double checking with someone	19:13
+perlDreamer	it looks dead simple, but I don't fully understand content chunking and the header generation	19:13
@rizen	the prepare() method is always called on every template as it is rendered	19:14
@rizen	and as you say, that does shove the head block into place	19:14
@rizen	so yes, we no longer need that line in Style.pm	19:14
+perlDreamer	okay	19:14
@rizen	it's a relic of a day gone by	19:14
+perlDreamer	I'll add a new test or two to Session/Style.pm and remove the line.	19:14
Klaus_	tests on solved bugs were always good.	19:15
+perlDreamer	Yeah, I'm embarassed to say that the present Style.pm test (which I wrote) didn't find this earlier.	19:16
@rizen	you can't find everrything colin	19:16
@rizen	don't beat yourself up about it	19:16
+perlDreamer	I'm not	19:16
+perlDreamer	this time :)	19:16
Klaus_	yes. but the meanwhile huge test suite gives an additional confidence on webgui. great! :-)	19:18
@rizen	klaus, do you write perl?	19:18
Klaus_	a litte bit. still learnig - even from webgui code.	19:19
@rizen	we''re always looking for eagle eyed people to help us make webgui better	19:19
@rizen	i hope you'll consider joining the core developers, writing bug fixes, tests, and eventually new features	19:20
@rizen	one of the best ways to learn perl is to start out writing tests	19:21
@rizen	because tests are easy to write	19:21
@rizen	and in doing so, you get to look at a whole lot of the codebase	19:21
@rizen	thusly learning both perl	19:21
Klaus_	oh yes - I will do. Helping more than only reporting bugs and REFs.	19:21
@rizen	and the webgui api	19:21
@rizen	don't get me wrong, reporting bugs and rfe's is great too	19:21
Klaus_	I can give it a try in writing or improoving some of the tests.	19:23
@rizen	that would be great	19:23
@rizen	if you need assistance, colin and i are both around most of the time	19:23
Klaus_	the next days im trying to bring the German translation into a productive state. The German usergroup is a bit small and inactive.	19:24
@rizen	are you using the translation server to do it?	19:24
@rizen	http://i18n.webgui.org/	19:25
@rizen	may make it easier if you aren't	19:25
Klaus_	I'v used it the last months, now I've set up my own	19:25
Klaus_	Sometimes it's better to sreach and replace things over the whole translation.	19:26
Klaus_	On your server I can't do it on the translated files.	19:27
@rizen	give me the specs for what you want to do and i'll be happy to add the functionality to the translation server	19:27
@rizen	the reason i like the translation server	19:27
@rizen	is that everyone can pitch in to work on the changes	19:27
@rizen	rather than having just one person do it	19:28
@rizen	it's easier to do as a group	19:28
Klaus_	Import an translation	19:28
Klaus_	Won't it be good having the translation server password protected so that not everone could change things?	19:29
@rizen	people have said that to me, but i kind of look at it as a wiki	19:29
@rizen	in that it works better as a community project	19:29
@rizen	if it's password protected, then all of the sudden it's back to a single user per translation	19:30
+perlDreamer	we're probably small enough that we don't have to worry about wikiSpam (or translationSpam) yet.	19:30
+perlDreamer	although someone did trash PDX.pm's wiki a few months ago	19:30
@rizen	i know it's possible, but we have backups	19:31
@rizen	and community process on a task this large	19:31
@rizen	is more important than worrying about spam	19:31
+perlDreamer	crud. I found a FC6 bug.	19:32
+perlDreamer	Either that or I need to install the FC6 perl-image-magick RPM	19:33
+perlDreamer	I probably won't be able to get the patch committed until this afternoon.	19:33
@rizen	what patch?	19:33
@rizen	the style one?	19:34
+perlDreamer	yes	19:34
@rizen	i can do that right now	19:34
@rizen	i'll do it	19:34
+perlDreamer	okay, I'll commit the new test later	19:34
Klaus_	One possible way could be a "commit to svn" function in the translation server. The translators will better notice the changes from others.	19:34
+perlDreamer	That's a good idea. That way translators could also sign up to get notification when commits are made.	19:35
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Klaus_	BTW there are two entries for German that point to the same files: /German"/ and /German/. Could you please delete the Entry with the quotation marks?	19:36
@rizen	yup	19:36
@rizen	the quote version is gone	19:40
@rizen	the patch is committed	19:40
Klaus_	thanks!	19:40
+perlDreamer	I'm off to church. Be back later.	19:43
+perlDreamer	Thanks, JT	19:43
@rizen	later	19:43
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+MrHairgrease	\nick MrAFKGrease	20:07
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@rizen	i've almost got the commit to svn option working	20:08
+MrAFKGrease	commit to svn from what?	20:12
Klaus_	I've ssen it.	20:13
Klaus_	Commit to SVN from the translationserver.	20:13
+MrAFKGrease	is there a translation server?	20:13
+MrAFKGrease	fr 18n files?	20:13
@rizen	yup	20:13
@rizen	i18n.webgui.org	20:13
+MrAFKGrease	oh cool	20:13
@rizen	http://i18n.webgui.org	20:13
+MrAFKGrease	were updating all the i18n stuff	20:14
Klaus_	or http://translation.webgui.org/ ;-)	20:14
@rizen	sweet	20:14
+MrAFKGrease	7.3.3 is ready	20:14
@rizen	if you give me the files you've worked on so far, i can import them into the translation server	20:14
@rizen	that is, if you want to	20:14
Klaus_	JT, should I mail you my actual translation to import it into the translatinserver?	20:14
Klaus_	Ok :-)	20:14
@rizen	sure	20:14
+MrAFKGrease	ok	20:14
+MrAFKGrease	i'll send em to you tonight	20:15
+MrAFKGrease	actually it is a ducth community project	20:15
+MrAFKGrease	10 people or so are working on it	20:15
+MrAFKGrease	i'm just tarring everything up =)	20:15
+MrAFKGrease	other question	20:16
+MrAFKGrease	i'm gonna add a start stop button to the timetracker	20:16
+MrAFKGrease	for use within oqapi	20:16
+MrAFKGrease	does that have any chance of making it into webgui?	20:16
@rizen	your entire translation team is welcome to use the translation server	20:16
@rizen	what is oqapi?	20:17
@rizen	regardless, ,yes ii'm find with start/stop	20:17
@rizen	but not until we fork for 7.4	20:17
+MrAFKGrease	oh you didn't know yet?	20:18
+MrAFKGrease	procolix split in three divisions	20:19
+MrAFKGrease	sepearte companies	20:19
+MrAFKGrease	koen's keeping procolix	20:19
+MrAFKGrease	joeri's started oqapi	20:19
+MrAFKGrease	I've gone with Joeri	20:19
xdanger	I could contribute our unfinished Finnish-language...	20:19
@rizen	xdanger: more than happy to put it on the translation server, maybe you'll get some extra helpers to work on the translation	20:20
xdanger	nice	20:20
+MrAFKGrease	rizen: I'll throw it in the group	20:20
xdanger	I'll send it to you tomorrow in a tar	20:20
+MrAFKGrease	the translation server thing	20:20
@rizen	no, i didn't know about the slip	20:20
+MrAFKGrease	I reckon everybody is ok with it	20:20
@rizen	split	20:20
@rizen	is everyone mad at eachother?	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	no	20:21
@rizen	or is all well in dutch land?	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	all is well	20:21
@rizen	that's good to hear	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	yeah	20:21
@rizen	i assume koen is the hosting/server guy	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	as an added benefit there's beer in the fridge again	20:21
@rizen	joeri is the dev guy	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	yeah	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	albert ha	20:21
+MrAFKGrease	albert now has his own testing company	20:21
@rizen	cool	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	sure	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	I'm happy with it	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	no fights or whatever	20:22
@rizen	beer in the fridge is good	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	just natural progression	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	it is	20:22
+MrAFKGrease	a pity that i only at the office one day a week	20:22
@rizen	it goes without saying that if you're ever in need of a job, i've got your back	20:23
+MrAFKGrease	sure	20:23
+MrAFKGrease	I'm very busy with starting to do my graduation stuff	20:23
+MrAFKGrease	and will be for a year or so	20:23
+MrAFKGrease	but no worries	20:23
+MrAFKGrease	I won't abandon webgui	20:23
@rizen	so, does oqapi have some spare resources?	20:24
@rizen	i think we're going to need to outsource a project or two coming up	20:24
+MrAFKGrease	maybe	20:24
@rizen	actually...what's joeri's email address	20:24
+MrAFKGrease	ask joeri	20:24
@rizen	i'll just have vrby contact him	20:25
+MrAFKGrease	joeri aat oqapi dot nl	20:25
@rizen	coolio	20:25
+MrAFKGrease	gotta go cooking	20:25
+MrAFKGrease	see ya	20:25
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--- Log opened Sun Jan 07 20:56:17 2007
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+MrHairgrease	jt	21:02
+MrHairgrease	two suggestions	21:02
+MrHairgrease	1) in our ducth translation server we default to the textarea	21:02
+MrHairgrease	the htmlarea adds to much crap	21:02
@rizen	you can set it however you want	21:03
+MrHairgrease	you get buttons containing texts like Save<br />	21:03
+MrHairgrease	I know	21:03
+MrHairgrease	just a suggestion	21:03
+MrHairgrease	also I hacked the thing to include 'motivational' status stuff	21:03
+MrHairgrease	see http://geefmegeld.nl/root/vertaal	21:03
+MrHairgrease	for examples	21:03
@rizen	do you have the source	21:04
@rizen	oh crap	21:04
@rizen	nevermind	21:04
@rizen	yours is based upon the old translation server	21:05
@rizen	i'll have to write it from scratch	21:05
+MrHairgrease	it's trivial to implement	21:06
@rizen	yeah	21:06
+MrHairgrease	I know the dutch translation team liked it a lot though	21:06
@rizen	i'll do it	21:06
+MrHairgrease	cool	21:07
@rizen	yeah	21:07
+MrHairgrease	the commit to svn function is for countering vandalism?	21:09
@rizen	yes	21:09
+MrHairgrease	ok	21:09
@rizen	well partially	21:09
+MrHairgrease	we were afraid for that	21:09
@rizen	also for going back in case of screwups	21:09
+MrHairgrease	that's why we put the i18n thing behind a realm	21:09
+MrHairgrease	also that helps consistency	21:10
+MrHairgrease	brb	21:10
+MrHairgrease	consistency as in translate this word with that one	21:11
+MrHairgrease	english -> dutch is not exactly non-abiguous =)	21:11
@rizen	true true	21:11
+MrHairgrease	so we set up a word list on webgui.nl	21:12
@rizen	the problem is that most communities	21:12
+MrHairgrease	anyway	21:12
@rizen	unlike the dutch team	21:12
@rizen	are disjointed and small	21:12
+MrHairgrease	i'm babbling right now =)	21:12
@rizen	so we really need to allow lots of people to join in the translation process	21:12
+MrHairgrease	sure enough	21:12
@rizen	that's why we can't password protect it	21:12
+MrHairgrease	i think so too	21:12
+MrHairgrease	I'll propose the thing	21:12
+MrHairgrease	you'll hear the result	21:13
@rizen	k	21:13
+MrHairgrease	regardless of that a very recent version is tarred up in the contrib area on pb.com	21:13
@rizen	yeah, i'm not worried about that	21:13
@rizen	more that the dutch translation is a good example of	21:13
@rizen	"how it's done"	21:14
+MrHairgrease	meaning?	21:14
@rizen	you guys are the defacto international leaders	21:14
+MrHairgrease	i know	21:14
@rizen	you do everything first, and best	21:14
+MrHairgrease	comes with the territory =)	21:14
@rizen	martin: sarah says hi	21:14
+MrHairgrease	somehow there's just a big wg-user density in the netherlands	21:14
+MrHairgrease	hi sarah	21:15
@rizen	motivators in place	22:02
Klaus_	Where/in which Asset are the promote/demote icons/functionality used in WebGUI?	22:15
@rizen	all assets use them	22:15
Klaus_	where do they show up?	22:15
@rizen	inherited from the superclass	22:16
@rizen	the icons aren't used anymore, only the functionality	22:16
@rizen	the icons are now only used by some assets for their collateral	22:16
Klaus_	OK, I thought I'm blind ;-)	22:17
@rizen	the promote/demote stuff can be found under the class icon of any asset	22:17
@rizen	in the inline view	22:17
Klaus_	OK, thanks - I've found them(data form fields)... For translating it's good to see the text/tooltip in its environment.	22:27
+MrHairgrease	cool jt	22:51
+MrHairgrease	would it also be possible to display the actual number of messages that are done/changed/new	22:52
+MrHairgrease	just like in the example	22:52
+MrHairgrease	There seems to be a bug too	22:53
+MrHairgrease	RedNeck / Form_Captcha	22:53
@rizen	what's the point of showing the actual numbers? it's just a feelgood indicator, right?	22:53
+MrHairgrease	sure	22:53
@rizen	gives you an idea of how close you are to done	22:53
+MrHairgrease	still only one to go	22:53
+MrHairgrease	yeah	22:53
+MrHairgrease	i you'll do it right you use the actual number of characters or something	22:54
+MrHairgrease	but that would be insane	22:54
+MrHairgrease	=)	22:54
+MrHairgrease	i just used the number of messages	22:55
+MrHairgrease	The RedNeck / Form_Captcha is saying it's at 50% but it is actually at 0% btw	22:56
@rizen	yeah, that's your fault	22:56
+MrHairgrease	what have i done?	22:57
@rizen	it just couldn't be my fault	22:57
@rizen	cuz i'm perfect	22:57
@rizen	so it must be you	22:57
+MrHairgrease	oh	22:57
+MrHairgrease	i c	22:57
+MrHairgrease	in that case it's Koens fault	22:57
+MrHairgrease	we agreed on that a year ago or so	22:58
@rizen	that's true	22:58
@rizen	ok	22:58
@rizen	his fault	22:58
+MrHairgrease	=)	22:58
@rizen	koen's bug is fixed	23:03
+MrHairgrease	very good	23:07
@rizen	so with the percentages	23:08
@rizen	would you rather see 6/50	23:08
@rizen	rather than the percentages	23:08
@rizen	i just don't want to waste a lot of screen realestate	23:08
@rizen	i just put it in	23:10
@rizen	and it looks much uglier	23:10
+MrHairgrease	that's why i put the percentages on the left side	23:11
+MrHairgrease	and all teh other data on the right	23:11
+MrHairgrease	if you don't scroll you don't see it	23:11
+MrHairgrease	it's just for the eager people	23:11
+MrHairgrease	another idea might be to put de numbers on top of the right hand frame	23:12
@rizen	your mom's a nitpicker	23:12
@rizen	and she dresses you funny	23:12
+MrHairgrease	and the percentages on the lft hand side	23:12
+MrHairgrease	that's true	23:12
+MrHairgrease	how'd you figure that out	23:12
@rizen	alright, i put the ratio on the right now	23:14
@rizen	and on the detail page	23:14
+MrHairgrease	ok	23:14
+MrHairgrease	that looks cool	23:14
+MrHairgrease	thanks	23:15
@rizen	thank you for smoking	23:15
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Radix__	funny movie that one	23:57
--- Day changed Mon Jan 08 2007
+MrAFKGrease	which movie?	00:09
@rizen	thank you for smoking	00:10
+MrAFKGrease	is that a movie?	00:11
@rizen	yup	00:11
+MrAFKGrease	the things you learn after 2300	00:11
Klaus_	sounds like I should have a look at the movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0427944/	00:20
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+perlDreamer	any clues on how to find out what this is:	02:54
+perlDreamer	has posted to one of your subscriptions	02:54
+perlDreamer	http://www.plainblack.com/Cm61332q9p9Sv_BxrjyXnQ	02:54
+perlDreamer	It's from noReply@plainblack.com	02:54
@rizen	is it reported as a bug yet?	02:54
@rizen	if not, then no	02:55
@rizen	it's something i'm going to have to go through the database and try to find	02:55
Radix-wrk	I got a couple of those too	02:55
+perlDreamer	kind of	02:55
+perlDreamer	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/problems-with-emails-from-install/upgrade-forum#zGTWsPb2x0BybrTKHrJdzg	02:55
+perlDreamer	although knowmad reports that he got a username, while this one was empty	02:56
+perlDreamer	it's like a workflow didn't get set up right somehow but still executed	02:56
Radix-wrk	I got two emails myself	02:56
@rizen	probably depends on what was shooting out the email as to what gets put in the email	02:56
Radix-wrk	plainblack.com	02:56
@rizen	either way it's something that shouldn't be happening	02:57
@rizen	if the bug is reported, then thats all you can do	02:57
@rizen	we have to take over from there	02:57
+perlDreamer	good luck!	02:58
+perlDreamer	also, I like the new email on the dev list	02:58
+perlDreamer	I'll start reading Perl/WebGUI Best Practices soon	02:58
@rizen	glad to hear it	02:58
+perlDreamer	do we have an expected time for the 7.4 branch?	02:59
@rizen	each time you ask me that i add a week	02:59
* perlDreamer --		02:59
@rizen	infinity + 2 weeks	02:59
@rizen	thats when it will be happening	03:00
+perlDreamer	bugList < 5?	03:00
@rizen	infinity + 2 weeks, i've already told you	03:00
@rizen	but since you formed that as a question	03:00
@rizen	infinity + 3 weeks	03:01
@rizen	so we have some amazing contests scheduled for this year	03:01
@rizen	we're bringing back the webgui community contest (wcc)	03:02
+perlDreamer	cool!	03:02
+perlDreamer	there are other contests, too?	03:02
@rizen	roy should be announcing the first one next week	03:03
@rizen	no..the community contest is all of the contests	03:03
@rizen	instead of being once per year	03:03
@rizen	it's going to be once every 2 months	03:03
@rizen	we were going to do it every month, but we figured that might not give people enough time to work on stuff	03:03
+perlDreamer	even two months is pretty quick for some big projects	03:04
@rizen	none of them will be very big	03:04
@rizen	at least that's the plan	03:04
@rizen	keep them reasonable to achieve	03:05
+perlDreamer	did the content compression (which won the last WCC) ever get folded in?	03:05
@rizen	that's a good question	03:05
@rizen	i don't know	03:05
@rizen	actually, i think no	03:05
@rizen	because we decided to do something more efficient	03:05
@rizen	which was adding gzip functionality to the wre	03:05
@rizen	it's far more efficient than having webgui do it	03:06
+perlDreamer	okay	03:06
@rizen	if i remember right	03:06
@rizen	when we benchmarked it	03:06
@rizen	mod_deflate was 6 times faster	03:06
@rizen	than the code in webgui	03:06
@rizen	and on top of that, it compressed stuff in the /extras and /uploads folders as well	03:07
+perlDreamer	that's a lot faster	03:07
+perlDreamer	rizen: is there any sense in me working on the Product Asset docs?	03:13
@rizen	for the time being, yes	03:14
@rizen	because commerce dev is put on hold	03:14
@rizen	until after we've achieved my new years resolution	03:15
@rizen	even after that, the product asset will likely continue to have all of it's current features	03:15
@rizen	it will just also tie into the commerce system	03:15
+perlDreamer	cool, thanks	03:16
+perlDreamer	as far as I know, there are still no project for $dayJob next week, so I'll have lots of time on my hands	03:16
@rizen	sweet	03:16
@rizen	use that time to read pbp	03:17
@rizen	=)	03:17
@rizen	at least until 7.4 is branched	03:17
+perlDreamer	I was thinking about this: http://jobs.perl.org/job/5148	03:18
+perlDreamer	so I'll be spending a little time writing a resume	03:18
@rizen	nah, you don't want that job	03:20
@rizen	they'll be paying you way too much	03:20
@rizen	=)	03:20
+perlDreamer	I saw that and figured the posting was some kind of joke	03:21
+perlDreamer	I've never seen salaries like that before	03:21
@rizen	when i used to work for $bigCompany I made $that++	03:21
+perlDreamer	not only is the salary too high, but there'd be no interstitial times for wG hackery	03:22
@rizen	they're going to want a lot out of someone	03:22
@rizen	for that much money	03:22
@rizen	cuz usually when you get that high in salary	03:22
@rizen	either they're expecting you to do 2 jobs +	03:23
@rizen	or it's a management job	03:23
@rizen	and the job description isn't a management job	03:23
+perlDreamer	yeah	03:23
+perlDreamer	All the percentages add up to 100, but it doesn't talk about hours/days	03:24
@rizen	it also doesn't talk about how many other people you'd be working with to do that job	03:24
@rizen	it could be that the current owner dood	03:24
@rizen	does all the work	03:24
@rizen	and needs to offload it to someone	03:24
@rizen	so he can do the new software	03:24
@rizen	but for that much money	03:25
@rizen	you should check it out at least	03:25
+perlDreamer	yeah	03:25
+perlDreamer	hack perl	03:25
+perlDreamer	stay at home	03:25
+perlDreamer	let Kathy go to mid-wife school	03:25
+perlDreamer	get done in 3 years	03:25
+perlDreamer	instead of 7	03:25
+perlDreamer	dinner time, be back later	03:30
@rizen	svn commits for the translation server are now in place	04:24
Klaus_	good thing. what's the meaning of a yellow line background in the right window?	04:29
@rizen	that means there's something there, but it's out of date	04:30
Klaus_	it seems you've also found a solution for the annoying trailing <br /> from the rich editor	04:34
@rizen	you mean, allow the user to disable it?	04:34
Klaus_	they were not longer automatically added at the end of a (singe line) translation or was it luck when I tested it	04:38
@rizen	probably luck	04:39
Klaus_	:-)	04:39
Klaus_	OK, was a long day. Time for bed.	04:39
@rizen	later	04:39
Klaus_	not for me...	04:40
@rizen	i mean, see you later	04:40
Klaus_	ohh. yes. bye!	04:41
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+perlDreamer	rizen: Want to do some bug triage? You up for it?	05:21
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@khenn	happy monday!	19:31
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@preaction-m	snapcount: /msg chanserv access #webgui add preaction 30 <-- do it! :p	19:36
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@snapcount	tada	19:38
@snapcount	np	19:38
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@khenn	anything going on today?	21:05
@preaction-m	alumni project, i've got a few ideas about some ease-of-use for developers	21:05
@preaction-m	a nice script i want to make for switching between webgui instances on a dev box	21:06
ckotil	coo	21:17
ckotil	l	21:17
ckotil	We have a database that contains all of the contact info for customers, logins, etc...	21:18
ckotil	I would like for webgui's user list to be pulled from that database. How hard is that to do?	21:18
@preaction-m	you could write a custom auth plugin	21:19
ckotil	already use one.	21:19
ckotil	for CAS	21:19
ckotil	'central authentication system' developed at yale. then we put our own spin on it	21:20
ckotil	but it works nicely with webgui	21:20
ckotil	but i want my users to be pulled from our database. how would i populate webgui's user list?	21:20
@preaction-m	you want to migrate?	21:21
ckotil	no. i want to have a single location to store my customers info	21:21
ckotil	and users.	21:21
ckotil	its all in a single database now.	21:22
+MrHairgrease	you mean sync profiles with that db?	21:22
ckotil	exactly	21:22
+MrHairgrease	you should have a look at the syncldapprofile workflow activities	21:22
+MrHairgrease	there are two	21:22
+MrHairgrease	one is called when a user activates him/herself	21:23
ckotil	ldap. k thats what i was thinking. ill go speak with my db guy . thanks	21:23
+MrHairgrease	the other is run by the cron workflow	21:23
+MrHairgrease	if you don't have ldap available	21:23
+MrHairgrease	just create your own plugin	21:23
+MrHairgrease	and use the ldap as example	21:23
ckotil	good deal.	21:24
+MrHairgrease	it is	21:24
+MrHairgrease	=)	21:24
+MrHairgrease	reuse is the best eufemism for legal stealing	21:25
@preaction-m	it's not illegal if you release the source	21:25
+MrHairgrease	that's why i said legal	21:25
+MrHairgrease	not illegal	21:25
@preaction-m	in fact, the viral nature of the GPL requires that any custom code you write for webgui has to be released upon request	21:26
+MrHairgrease	only code you distribute	21:26
+MrHairgrease	and i can charge for the code	21:26
+MrHairgrease	or better said	21:26
@preaction-m	no, anything that works with webgui must be released under the GPL	21:27
+MrHairgrease	the deliverance cost o	21:27
@preaction-m	but yes, you can charge for it	21:27
+MrHairgrease	of the code	21:27
+MrHairgrease	gpl is a distribution license	21:27
+MrHairgrease	so if i keep the stuff inhouse	21:27
+MrHairgrease	i don't have to release it	21:27
+MrHairgrease	now of course	21:27
+MrHairgrease	fo webgui this is not a problem at all	21:28
+MrHairgrease	everything you distribute	21:28
@preaction-m	and since PB distributes WebGUI with it, you must abide by it, one of the caveats of it is that anything you write that uses WebGUI must be GPL	21:28
+MrHairgrease	ships with the source automatically	21:28
@preaction-m	that's why i usually release code under the LGPL	21:28
@preaction-m	doesn't have the over-reaching viral nature of the GPL	21:28
+MrHairgrease	yes	21:28
+MrHairgrease	but if you write your auth thingy	21:28
@preaction-m	it uses webgui's API, which means you must GPL	21:29
+MrHairgrease	and just dploy it at your work only	21:29
+MrHairgrease	i cannot ask for the code	21:29
+MrHairgrease	b/c you don't distribute it	21:29
+MrHairgrease	see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl	21:33
+MrHairgrease	under the section 'common misconceptions'	21:33
+MrHairgrease	first item	21:33
@preaction-m	the last paragraph of the GPL seems to indicate my position, but it's ambiguous and misleading	21:34
+MrHairgrease	yeah	21:39
+MrHairgrease	those damn hippie software developers =)	21:39
+MrHairgrease	anyway	21:39
+MrHairgrease	the gpl vs. lgpl thing is much less of an issue	21:40
+MrHairgrease	with perl code	21:40
+MrHairgrease	since when you distribute	21:40
@preaction-m	indeed... hippie and nerd seem mutually exclusive	21:40
+MrHairgrease	you always ship the code	21:40
+MrHairgrease	huh?	21:40
+MrHairgrease	have you ever seen a picture of rms?	21:40
+MrHairgrease	now if that isn't a hippie =)	21:41
@preaction-m	yes, i needed eye bleach	21:41
@khenn	You can build and sell plugins for WebGUI w/o it violating the GPL	22:24
@khenn	if you add anything to WebGUI's core, you cannot legally repackage and sell it w/o contributing it back	22:25
@khenn	that's the difference	22:25
+MrHairgrease	b/c plugins are not linked againstr the core?	22:25
@preaction-m	you can sell the plugin, but not bundled with webgui, unless your plugin is also licensed GPL	22:25
@khenn	right	22:25
@preaction-m	the wikipedia article cleared all that crap up for me	22:26
@khenn	I updated the Asset installer so that you can use .tmpl files rather than having to hardcode your templates right in the install code at the bottom	22:29
@khenn	well not the Asset installer	22:30
@khenn	but the code at the bottom of the Asset Template	22:30
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@khenn	I haven't added it yet	22:30
@khenn	b/c it's like 200 extra lines of code	22:30
@khenn	oh, it also commits all the templates so you don't have tags from "visitor"	22:30
@khenn	which is pretty confusing	22:30
@preaction-m	I like the updater more, the template editor inside webgui is clunky :p	22:30
@khenn	yeah, it's nice to work with files	22:31
@khenn	and then just -MWebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject update	22:31
@khenn	or I think I had to call it upgrade	22:31
@khenn	b/c of naming conflicts	22:31
@khenn	but if anyone wants the code, I'll be happy to post it somewhere	22:32
@khenn	I think we will eventually add an install API to WebGUI	22:32
@preaction-m	you could use a seperate package inside the module, say WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install, then have the subs be part of that	22:32
@preaction-m	so you'd "use WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject;" and then call "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install::update"	22:33
@khenn	yeah I dunno	22:33
@khenn	ok so who is everyone out here? I know some of you	22:35
@khenn	MrHairgrease is obvious =p	22:35
@khenn	perlDreamer is Colin, right?	22:35
@preaction-m	radix is Jesse	22:35
+perlDreamer	yup	22:35
@khenn	ok	22:35
@khenn	this is Frank btw	22:35
+MrHairgrease	xdanger is yukka	22:35
+MrHairgrease	he is this dude from Finland	22:36
@khenn	right	22:36
xdanger	Jukka	22:36
@preaction-m	PedersenMJ is a walk-in, iirc	22:36
@preaction-m	perlbot botsnack	22:36
perlbot	whatever.	22:36
+MrHairgrease	sry	22:36
+MrHairgrease	I meant Jukka	22:36
+perlDreamer	howdy frank	22:37
@khenn	howdy	22:38
+perlDreamer	haven't seen you in here before	22:38
+MrHairgrease	now that everybody is here anyway	22:38
@khenn	I'm usually rizzo	22:38
@khenn	I've been here	22:38
+MrHairgrease	what do you think?	22:38
@khenn	but someone stole my nick	22:38
+MrHairgrease	tabs or spaces	22:38
+MrHairgrease	and how many	22:38
@khenn	spaces	22:38
+perlDreamer	4 spaces	22:38
@khenn	4	22:38
+perlDreamer	ala PBP	22:38
@khenn	I usually use 3	22:38
@khenn	but I can hack 4	22:38
@preaction-m	i've already updated my vimrc to do 4-space tabs	22:39
+MrHairgrease	you guys are insane =)	22:39
+MrHairgrease	tabs are obviously the way	22:39
+perlDreamer	you can always use perltidy to locally reformat it	22:39
+MrHairgrease	_teh_ way *	22:39
+MrHairgrease	no	22:39
@khenn	tabs are too modern =)	22:39
@preaction-m	i'd prefer 8, and tabs instead os spaces, but vim does this automagically so it's no skin off my nose	22:39
+MrHairgrease	yeah	22:39
+MrHairgrease	but the idea is that everybody uses the same convention	22:39
@khenn	most languages use spaces	22:39
+MrHairgrease	or tabs	22:40
xdanger	tabs ;)	22:40
+MrHairgrease	most lanuages don't care	22:40
xdanger	python does... ?	22:40
+perlDreamer	I think so, just to determine level of indentation	22:40
+perlDreamer	since whitespace matter in python	22:41
* perlDreamer shudders		22:41
@khenn	I'm talking C++ (which is the only REAL language) =p	22:41
+MrHairgrease	ouch	22:41
@preaction-m	pfft... use C	22:41
@khenn	well PERL is essentially C	22:41
xdanger	But does it do some s/ /\t/; kinda stuff also =)	22:41
@khenn	so ...	22:41
@khenn	Ansi C?	22:41
@khenn	ha	22:41
@preaction-m	perlbot capital	22:41
+MrHairgrease	anybody using emacs here? =)	22:41
@preaction-m	perlbot capital Perl	22:41
perlbot	Perl is the language, perl is the program, there is no PERL. See perldoc -q 'difference between'.	22:41
+perlDreamer	vim is the way	22:41
ckotil	heh, nano/pico	22:42
@khenn	my capslock got stuck =p	22:42
+perlDreamer	so who is ckotil in real life?	22:42
ckotil	me	22:42
ckotil	o	22:42
ckotil	chad kotil	22:42
@preaction-m	i will give serious props to those who can program efficiently in nano	22:42
ckotil	im not efficient	22:42
+MrHairgrease	I always use vim in ed mode =)	22:42
ckotil	emacs and vi confuse me	22:43
+perlDreamer	MrHairGrease: It's a good start. It's like drinking light American Beer.	22:43
+perlDreamer	instead of the real thing	22:43
ckotil	ive learned emacs in the past, but then a couple months went by and i forgot all the shit	22:43
+MrHairgrease	what's good about that?	22:43
+perlDreamer	at leasty you're drinking beer	22:43
+MrHairgrease	I once tried emacs	22:43
ckotil	light beer is like fucking in a row boat	22:43
+MrHairgrease	and couldn't get out of the help screen	22:43
+MrHairgrease	kill -9 did the job though	22:44
ckotil	its fucking pretty close to water.	22:44
+perlDreamer	I couldn't figure out how to quit emacs	22:44
+MrHairgrease	i also tried light beer once	22:44
@preaction-m	lol ckotil	22:44
+MrHairgrease	on the first wuc	22:44
+MrHairgrease	that was a onetimer too	22:44
ckotil	exactly you need a cheat sheet	22:44
@khenn	Someday I'll be all Linuxish like you guys, but until then I like my GUI windows crap	22:45
@preaction-m	the secret to vim is a good vimrc	22:45
+MrHairgrease	so use eclypse	22:45
+MrHairgrease	eclipse	22:45
@preaction-m	and i need to get frank into vim at least, or barring that a decent editor (not Homesite...)	22:45
+MrHairgrease	prereaction-m++	22:45
@preaction-m	jEdit would suffice	22:45
+MrHairgrease	vim sucks the first day	22:45
@khenn	I can use vim	22:46
@khenn	I just prefer not to	22:46
+MrHairgrease	but after that you cannot live without oit	22:46
+perlDreamer	use gvim, it will let you keep a GUI	22:46
+MrHairgrease	use whatever you like	22:46
@khenn	I enjoy my dev tools like split screens and line numbers	22:46
@preaction-m	vim has those	22:46
+MrHairgrease	set number	22:46
@preaction-m	ctrl+w n <- split the window	22:46
@preaction-m	ctrl+w <down arrow> move to window down, <up arrow> move to window up, etc...	22:47
+MrHairgrease	and besides	22:47
@preaction-m	use :h C-w <- for more information	22:47
@khenn	as opposed to simply pressing the split screen icon?	22:47
+MrHairgrease	who can work with an editor that cannot navigate with hjkl	22:47
@khenn	I have enough to remember =p	22:47
@preaction-m	exactly	22:47
@preaction-m	it's about creating instincts, like PBP	22:48
@preaction-m	like using screen, or any program for that matter	22:48
@preaction-m	i'm using my newly paid-for Parallels to finally make the complete switch to vim, from jedit	22:48
+MrHairgrease	oh	22:48
+MrHairgrease	so your on a mac	22:49
@preaction-m	macbook pro. the first laptop i've actually liked	22:49
ckotil	they're nic	22:49
ckotil	e	22:49
ckotil	i work on a new imac core2duo	22:49
ckotil	21" widescreen	22:49
@preaction-m	nice	22:49
+MrHairgrease	they're too expensive for me	22:49
ckotil	im trying to get hooked up with a macbook	22:49
+MrHairgrease	but i bought a vaio	22:50
+MrHairgrease	from the evil sony empire	22:50
ckotil	fukcing heater is on for no reason.	22:50
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@preaction-m	this is the company's lappy, otherwise I'd be on my old-school AMDk7 2800+ running Ubuntu Edgy	22:50
+MrHairgrease	i run a 1800+	22:50
+MrHairgrease	with kubuntu though	22:51
+perlDreamer	gotta run to a meeting	22:51
+perlDreamer	be back later	22:51
@khenn	ok, so how do I turn on color coding in vim?	22:51
+MrHairgrease	later	22:51
-!- perlDreamer is now known as perlDreamer_afk		22:51
+perlDreamer_afk	:syn on	22:51
+MrHairgrease	syntax on	22:52
+MrHairgrease	same thing	22:52
@khenn	how do I unsplit the damn screen now?	22:52
@preaction-m	:q	22:52
@khenn	ok well screen splitting sucked =p	22:53
+MrHairgrease	complain more	22:53
+MrHairgrease	so what ide thing do you use then frank?	22:53
@khenn	I use Homesite mostly	22:54
@khenn	one step up from a text editor	22:54
@khenn	just the way I like it	22:54
@khenn	an old version too	22:54
@khenn	not the crap they have out now	22:54
@khenn	4.5	22:54
@khenn	can you undo in vim?	22:54
@khenn	that would be useful to know	22:55
+MrHairgrease	u	22:55
+MrHairgrease	im vim 7 you can also say	22:55
+MrHairgrease	:earlier 10s	22:55
+MrHairgrease	which will get you back 10 secs in time	22:55
+MrHairgrease	or later: 1h	22:55
@khenn	will that do all of the work I will do over the next hour?	22:55
@khenn	that would be pretty sweet	22:55
+MrHairgrease	something like that	22:56
+MrHairgrease	if your drunk =)	22:56
@khenn	I'll just do later: 8h and take the day off	22:56
@khenn	=)	22:56
+MrHairgrease	maybe jt will buy it	22:56
+MrHairgrease	that's how i do my job	22:56
+MrHairgrease	=)	22:56
@khenn	I have vim 6.3	22:57
+MrHairgrease	that only supports u	22:57
+MrHairgrease	:help undo	22:58
xdanger	I use subethaedit =P	23:09
xdanger	on mu 3 years old ibook 1G	23:09
xdanger	on my	23:09
@khenn	I use windows. I'm just uncool like that	23:10
+MrHairgrease	we know =)	23:10
xdanger	I've been planning to move to gvim7, but it's not quite there yet... on the matter of mac os x integration..	23:11
--- Day changed Tue Jan 09 2007
-!- perlDreamer_afk is now known as perlDreamer		00:06
+perlDreamer	boy it got quiet all of a sudden	00:46
@khenn	yeah	00:48
@khenn	I said the 'W' word	00:48
+perlDreamer	are you staying busy?	00:48
@khenn	yes	00:49
@khenn	we are very busy right now	00:49
@khenn	how bout yourself?	00:49
@khenn	I hear you are on vacation or something?	00:49
+perlDreamer	we're inbetween projects, so I'm way bored	00:49
+MrHairgrease	you are bored?	00:50
+perlDreamer	muy	00:50
+perlDreamer	mucho	00:50
+perlDreamer	zehr	00:50
+perlDreamer	very	00:50
+MrHairgrease	i've been reading papers all day	00:50
+MrHairgrease	it's really boredom	00:50
+MrHairgrease	but some weird kind of numbness	00:50
+MrHairgrease	it's sehr btw	00:51
+perlDreamer	thanks	00:51
+perlDreamer	I only speak German, not write it	00:51
+MrHairgrease	i usually only read it	00:51
+MrHairgrease	when i speak german	00:51
+perlDreamer	are you reading papers for your school project?	00:52
+MrHairgrease	germans usually do not understand me	00:52
+MrHairgrease	graduation	00:52
+MrHairgrease	i just started	00:52
Klaus_	wyh try you not to be understood?	00:52
+perlDreamer	His American accent throws him off	00:52
+MrHairgrease	i try very hard to be understood	00:53
+MrHairgrease	and sometimes i succed	00:53
+MrHairgrease	but usually my girlfriend hijacks the conversation	00:53
Klaus_	I have no problems with my German...	00:53
Klaus_	OK - sometimes...	00:53
+MrHairgrease	she's better at foreign languages i guess	00:53
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+MrHairgrease	only in oktober right?=)	00:53
Klaus_	all the year- and right now...	00:54
+MrHairgrease	i see	00:54
+MrHairgrease	you know what	00:54
+MrHairgrease	i'm gonna get me my own dutch speech impedimen	00:54
Klaus_	what's a impedimen?	00:55
+perlDreamer	impediment	00:55
+perlDreamer	difficulty	00:55
+perlDreamer	disability	00:55
Klaus_	Ah.	00:55
Klaus_	to improove your	00:56
Klaus_	German	00:56
+MrHairgrease	actually to improve my belgian	00:56
Klaus_	do you like to help on Webgui translation? ;-)	00:56
+MrHairgrease	whatever	00:56
+MrHairgrease	nein	00:57
Klaus_	Damn!	00:57
+MrHairgrease	verdammt!	00:57
Klaus_	Sehr gut!	00:57
+MrHairgrease	genau	00:57
+MrHairgrease	now if we only had jukka to flabbergast us with some Finnish the evening would be perfect	00:58
+MrHairgrease	=)	00:58
Klaus_	Webgui is missing a babelfish function.	00:58
+perlDreamer	Porque no hablamon in Espanol?	00:58
+MrHairgrease	No man	00:58
+MrHairgrease	I don't speak no portugese =)	00:59
+perlDreamer	Not Spanish either? :)	00:59
@khenn	I fluently speak every language except for Greek	00:59
Klaus_	I gave Spain a chance some years ago.	00:59
+MrHairgrease	never been there	00:59
+MrHairgrease	did you like it?	01:00
Klaus_	The langauge. Yes. But you mentioined: girls are better in languages.	01:01
+MrHairgrease	my girl is	01:01
+MrHairgrease	compared to me	01:01
Klaus_	she has adopted Perl Best Practices to foreign languages?	01:02
+MrHairgrease	no	01:03
+MrHairgrease	i'm better in babling	01:03
+MrHairgrease	so i'm better at perl	01:03
+MrHairgrease	=)	01:03
+MrHairgrease	my guess is she doesn't even wan to touch the book	01:04
+MrHairgrease	anybody read the Perl Hacks book btw?	01:04
Klaus_	i can imagine.	01:04
+perlDreamer	Went to the author's presentation at OSCON last year.	01:04
+perlDreamer	Does that count?	01:04
+MrHairgrease	no	01:05
+MrHairgrease	don't think so	01:05
+MrHairgrease	I like it a lot though	01:05
+MrHairgrease	the book that is	01:05
Klaus_	Not right now in my bookshelf	01:05
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Klaus_	I've just ordered it at the library.	01:08
+MrHairgrease	cool	01:08
Klaus_	Author is Conway - he worte the book on oject oriented perl?	01:09
+perlDreamer	Author is chromatic	01:09
+MrHairgrease	indeed	01:09
+MrHairgrease	conway wrote oop	01:10
+MrHairgrease	and pbp iirc	01:10
+perlDreamer	yup	01:10
Klaus_	Oh - it's the German translation I've ordered.	01:11
Klaus_	anyone read Extreme Perl? http://www.extremeperl.org/	01:15
+MrHairgrease	no	01:15
Klaus_	I had a look on it some yers ago, but it seems still to be not yet completed.	01:15
+MrHairgrease	but hey	01:16
+MrHairgrease	it's free	01:16
+MrHairgrease	=)	01:16
Klaus_	I wanted to print the pdf version. Downloaded the pdf A4 version but it was in Letter format.	01:19
+MrHairgrease	no big deal	01:19
+MrHairgrease	just sloppy	01:19
Klaus_	I had a HP printer that needed pressing a button after each page...	01:19
+MrHairgrease	that does suck	01:19
xdanger	Klaus_: http://www.extremeperl.org/f/extremeperl-a4.pdf	01:40
xdanger	the link in the pages still point to letter version...	01:41
Klaus_	things never will change. world stands still. sometimes ;-)	01:44
Klaus_	I remember I had emailed that to the author.	01:44
+MrHairgrease	later guys	02:00
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+perlDreamer	Klaus_: did you get any farther on the nested macro bug on your end?	02:00
Klaus_	No yet. No time, I had to do a lot of other stuff today. xsl-fo/pdf hacking. Will last for a fiew days.	02:02
+perlDreamer	You know xsl-fo?	02:02
Klaus_	yep.	02:03
Klaus_	and svg	02:03
+perlDreamer	I've been wanting to make a PDF of the online wG help, but everything I've tried is either proprietary or bad.	02:03
+perlDreamer	Do you have any pointers for someone wanting to start with xsl-fo?	02:04
Klaus_	install fop, for documentation use http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/compliance.html some often wanted features are not yet supported.	02:05
Klaus_	producing pdf out of the dokus with fop/xsl-fo I can help.	02:07
Klaus_	having your all-in-one help file as a valid and well formed xml file it will be easy.	02:11
+perlDreamer	most of it is XHTML clean	02:13
+perlDreamer	so going the next step to XML should be easy	02:13
+perlDreamer	time for me to go home	02:20
Klaus_	some small modifications and then perhaps tidfying will prepare the xml source. I will try do make a pdf prototype tomorrow or the next day.	02:20
+perlDreamer	tomorrow? That would be awesome!	02:20
+perlDreamer	thanks Klaus!	02:20
Klaus_	me too. time for bed. its 1:30	02:20
+perlDreamer	Gute Nacht	02:21
Klaus_	Danke. W�nsche ich Dir auch.	02:21
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+perlDreamer	morning, all	18:41
@rizen_afk	morning	18:41
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+perlDreamer	did you read Ehab's post to the new year's resolution?	18:42
@rizen	not yet, let me check	18:43
@rizen	blah blah blah	18:44
@rizen	it's the same shit he's always spouting off about	18:44
@khenn	I got 2 sentences in and decided it was a waste of time to continue	18:45
@rizen	the second half is more interesting	18:45
+perlDreamer	I didn't get what he said about extending the free hosting period.	18:45
@rizen	he's talking about the demo	18:45
+perlDreamer	oh	18:45
+perlDreamer	for bug fixing, it would be nice to have a more persistent demo, but it's something that can also be scripted for a dev.	18:46
@rizen	the problem with it is that we get 1200 new demos per day	18:47
@rizen	and when a new release comes out that's more like 2000 new demos per day	18:47
@rizen	so there's a disk usage component there	18:48
@rizen	in addition, and this is the bigger one	18:48
@rizen	spammers like to use the free demo area to upload pages to use in their spam bots	18:48
+perlDreamer	oy	18:48
@rizen	by cleaning them up every tday we eliminate that	18:48
+perlDreamer	maybe we should have a captcha for demo creation	18:48
@rizen	captcha isn't foolproof	18:49
@rizen	maybe it would help	18:49
+perlDreamer	you're right	18:49
@rizen	but honestly, there's no reason to expand the demo that i can see	18:49
@rizen	he said we should do it	18:49
@rizen	but he didn't say wy	18:49
@rizen	why	18:49
@rizen	why would making the demo sites stick around longer increase community	18:49
@khenn	I read it	18:50
@rizen	i'll respond to him later	18:50
+perlDreamer	you're already doing docs	18:50
@rizen	i have to think of a nice way to say "no fucking way" to the wre suggestion he made	18:50
@preaction-m	it wouldn't work for the WRE, but it would be possible for someone to maintain a package-managed version of the WebGUI source	18:51
@rizen	the whole reason we've made the wre is that making packages for every platform is rediculously time consuming	18:51
+perlDreamer	would it be possible to reduce the WRE to a set of configs and scripts only?	18:51
@rizen	right, "someone"	18:51
@rizen	but that someone is not us	18:51
@preaction-m	exactly	18:51
@khenn	right	18:51
@khenn	I do think there should be an installer	18:52
@preaction-m	well, not officially us. maybe me if i get bored one night	18:52
@khenn	possibly install anywhere or something like that	18:52
@rizen	perlDreamer: yes it is, but then installing the wre becomes amazingly difficult	18:52
@khenn	not sure if there's a free one of those	18:52
@rizen	because every system is different	18:52
@rizen	frank, the new wre will have an installer	18:52
@rizen	i've already said that	18:52
@rizen	in my new years resolution	18:53
@rizen	but it will be a home-brew one	18:53
@rizen	because there isn't a good free cross-platform one out there	18:53
@rizen	plus, i want it written in perl	18:53
@khenn	ah	18:54
@preaction-m	CGI or CLI?	18:54
@khenn	home brew!	18:54
@rizen	it will be cgi	18:54
@rizen	or more probably, POE/CGI	18:54
@preaction-m	oooooh	18:54
@khenn	it won't be cool unless it has a splash screen =p	18:54
+perlDreamer	oh, Steve...!	18:54
@rizen	it will have a splash screen...that photo of me with the axe that i took for colin	18:55
@rizen	that will be the splash screen	18:55
@preaction-m	some ominous text "Your Web Solution Executes Now!"	18:55
+perlDreamer	"He didn't use WebGUI."	18:55
@khenn	"Please wait as we assimilate your system"	18:56
@rizen	getting back to the wre without prereqs thing for a second	18:58
@rizen	the whole idea of the wre is to give the "it just works" factor to webgui	18:58
@rizen	the wre without prereqs will require the user to install 10 billion things	18:58
@rizen	there's no sense of 'it just works' with that	18:59
+perlDreamer	that's true	18:59
+perlDreamer	and hackers can always extract the configs and scripts if they want to stay with disti-level software	19:00
@khenn	unless we figure out a way to allow people to install / upgrade without having to do anything but type some stuff in, there will always be peopl who "can't figure it out"	19:00
+perlDreamer	shouldn't the use hosted solutions?	19:00
@khenn	ie ehab's request	19:00
+perlDreamer	"shouldn't they"	19:00
@khenn	yum WebGUI	19:00
+perlDreamer	yeah	19:00
+perlDreamer	or apt-get WebGUI	19:01
+perlDreamer	yast WebGUI	19:01
@khenn	right	19:01
+perlDreamer	emerge WebGUI	19:01
@khenn	fuckinginstall WebGUI	19:01
@khenn	I like that one	19:01
+perlDreamer	exactly	19:01
@khenn	=)	19:01
+perlDreamer	disti level package management kills us in the ISV arena	19:01
@khenn	if it's homebrewed, we can make it work	19:01
@khenn	1) download WebGUIsetup7-3-4.pl	19:03
@khenn	2) make sure you are root	19:03
@khenn	3) run ./WebGUIsetup7-3-4	19:04
@khenn	4) done	19:04
@khenn	something along those lines	19:04
@preaction-m	i believe there already is an emerge WebGUI (but it might be outdated)	19:05
+perlDreamer	but does it setup MySQL and apache like the WRE?	19:05
@preaction-m	durno, i hate gentoo	19:06
+perlDreamer	I'm not fond of it either	19:06
+perlDreamer	all those poor electrons being sacrificed to compile the same software over and over	19:06
+perlDreamer	it's a waste	19:06
@rizen	nothing out there does what the wre does	19:07
@rizen	the wre isn't just the utility scripts	19:07
@rizen	it's also the way we compile stuff	19:07
@rizen	we compile out the stuff you don't need	19:07
@rizen	so that you just have exactly what you do need	19:07
@rizen	then we configure it all such that it's pretuned to work for webgui	19:08
@rizen	in the best way possible	19:08
@rizen	for most situations	19:08
@rizen	and then on top of all that	19:08
@rizen	we give you some nifty utilities to make day to day administration easier	19:08
@rizen	no matter how much we worked on individual package systems	19:09
@rizen	we wouldn't get what we have with the wre	19:09
@rizen	because we would have to use their precompiled versions of things	19:09
@rizen	or we'd have to fight with their precompiled versions of thigns	19:09
@rizen	either way...not as good	19:09
@rizen	and on top of that	19:10
@rizen	we'd have all the dev time	19:10
@rizen	building out tthe package management system	19:10
@rizen	for every environment	19:10
@rizen	rather than taking the slackware approach	19:10
@rizen	of just giving them a tarball that works	19:10
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+perlDreamer	preaction-m: you around?	20:26
@preaction-m	yes'm	20:26
+perlDreamer	Have you fixed the gateway problem in the new Calendar?	20:27
@preaction-m	i'm not sure, it's not in the Event object that I can see	20:27
@preaction-m	I added a "url" key to the getTemplateVars method	20:27
@preaction-m	i've got to look through the Calendar itself and see if it's the one doing it	20:28
+perlDreamer	okay, Kristi posted a bug about it, and I was thinking that if you'd already fixed and committed we could close it	20:28
@preaction-m	but before then I have to write a script to help me switch between webgui sources (I've got like three that I need to constantly switch between, it's getting annoying)	20:28
@preaction-m	yup, it's my current priority until John messages me back about his 7.x upgrade	20:29
+perlDreamer	cool.	20:30
+perlDreamer	Once I finish this CentOS demo at work, I can spend the rest of the day doing wG hackery.	20:30
@preaction-m	word	20:30
@preaction-m	does anyone still have that list of bugs that need to be fixed before 7.3 can go stable? there's now a lot of stuff in 7.3 that people are clamoring for	20:30
+perlDreamer	I think Roy may have posted it to the dev list	20:31
+perlDreamer	check the archives	20:31
@preaction-m	k	20:31
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+perlDreamer	are we scheduled for a 7.3.4 tomorrow, or are we holding off?	20:39
@snapcount	tomorrow morning	20:39
@snapcount	preaction-m is doing the release this week	20:39
@snapcount	cross-training++	20:40
+perlDreamer	I'll pray for him	20:40
+perlDreamer	releases aren't easy	20:40
@snapcount	heh, it's an adventure	20:40
+perlDreamer	you've done some automation for them?	20:40
@snapcount	yeah it's automated quite a bit	20:40
@snapcount	preparing svn can be tricky when there's a branch	20:41
@snapcount	but this release will be pretty easy	20:41
* perlDreamer chomps at the bit for 7.4		20:42
+perlDreamer	I would like to be an RFE fiend for 7.4	20:42
+perlDreamer	get rid of the last few remaining javascript-less confirmation screens	20:42
+perlDreamer	Help system improvements	20:42
+perlDreamer	all pending approval, of course	20:45
@khenn	you can always add it locally and wait to check it in ...	20:47
@khenn	I guess that gets kinda mess though with merges and such	20:47
+perlDreamer	yeah, plus I'm overhauling the docs all the time	20:47
+perlDreamer	I could make a separate branch just for that, thought	20:47
+perlDreamer	I was only able to carve out 1 Gb for $dayJob hackery	20:48
@preaction-m	and just merge on tuesdays?	20:48
+perlDreamer	it doesn't really matter when you merge, although frequently is better than infrequently	20:50
@snapcount	I believe all of the JS confirmation RFE's came from JT	20:50
@preaction-m	indeed	20:50
@snapcount	so they are approved	20:50
+perlDreamer	JT typed them in from SourceForge	20:50
+perlDreamer	so they have his ID	20:50
@snapcount	oh I see	20:50
@snapcount	I thought they made a user called sourceforge for that	20:50
@snapcount	in any case, just post to dev and say I want to commit RFE x, y, z	20:51
@snapcount	we trust your code	20:51
@snapcount	=)	20:51
@snapcount	I'm sure the response will be "ok"	20:52
@preaction-m	he has svn access, i sure hope you trust his code :p	20:52
+perlDreamer	fe@r my l33t hacking skillz	20:52
@snapcount	of course we need a stinking branch	20:52
@snapcount	and before that we need a stinking stable release	20:52
@snapcount	sigh*	20:52
@snapcount	vicious cycle	20:52
@preaction-m	i think we should branch right after minor releases, so 7.4 will have a branch, and head will continue development	20:53
@preaction-m	so bugfixes can be backported	20:53
@snapcount	the reasons we don't are:	20:53
@preaction-m	but opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one	20:53
@snapcount	1) to keep people focused on making a release stable	20:53
@snapcount	and not just working on cool stuff	20:53
@snapcount	2) merging to branch/head on every commit is a pain in the ass	20:54
@preaction-m	pardon me if i call bullshit on (1)	20:54
@snapcount	so we delay that as long as possible	20:54
@snapcount	bullshit? there is no bullshit here	20:54
@snapcount	only happiness and kittens	20:54
@preaction-m	(2) is just as easy as "svn diff > patch.txt" before you commit, then "patch -p0 < patch.txt" in the branched stable	20:54
@snapcount	yes	20:55
+perlDreamer	or svn merge -r rev1:rev2	20:55
@snapcount	and svn commit is easier	20:55
@snapcount	I didn't say how much harder (2) was =)	20:55
+perlDreamer	I can't find the list of show stopper bugs for 7.3 on the dev list	20:55
@snapcount	wow	20:55
@snapcount	irony	20:55
@preaction-m	something has to give, in some way it will be made more difficult	20:55
@snapcount	prolly a bug	20:55
+perlDreamer	is it just bug volume?	20:56
+perlDreamer	ug	20:56
@preaction-m	whether it be by using another program that does the SVN commits, or by doing the steps above	20:56
+perlDreamer	that's a bug, too	20:56
+perlDreamer	when I replied via email, it created a new thread	20:56
@snapcount	perlDreamer: If I remember correctly, we need to fix all the Calendar and WIki bugs	20:57
+perlDreamer	how about RSS?	20:57
@snapcount	the CS bug that I specified preaction-m has fixed	20:57
@snapcount	is it broken?	20:57
@preaction-m	i'm worrking on one of the calendar bugs (the one reported by kristie and alafondo)	20:58
+perlDreamer	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/rss-generation-not-working-in-cs#e3L-Yrd3aeEdtPwGLVc9XQ	20:58
@snapcount	oh yeah	20:58
@snapcount	that's that new quasi-asset thingy	20:58
+perlDreamer	hey, there's another bug we can close:	20:58
+perlDreamer	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/resolved-rfes-appearing-in-search-results#wJJyZzLJd8I0M6tvbnUuCw	20:58
+perlDreamer	Roy, if you have time, please check it out and see if it's related to the same behavior in the bug system	20:59
@snapcount	not sure that's a bug	20:59
@snapcount	think of it in the context of the forums	21:00
@snapcount	closed issues you'd want to find	21:00
@snapcount	as well as closed bugs, so you know if they were found/fixed	21:00
+perlDreamer	yeah	21:00
+perlDreamer	good point	21:00
+perlDreamer	should we close it out?	21:00
@snapcount	might be nice to add an RFE to limit results to one or the other	21:00
@snapcount	yes	21:01
+perlDreamer	I'll do that with the RFE suggestion.	21:01
+perlDreamer	yay! One less bug	21:01
@snapcount	rock on	21:01
@snapcount	ok... back to other crap for a while	21:01
@snapcount	I'll peak in again in a bit	21:02
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@snapcount	Paging rizen of the Smiths whom hail from the land of cheese and dairy	22:46
@snapcount	preaction-m: you need to see if your bot can run the UNO game	22:47
@snapcount	otherwise we'll have to off it in favor of an eggdrop bot	22:47
@preaction-m	perlbot is custom source, not eggdrop or anything else	22:48
@snapcount	we also need to get seen, and calc going again	22:48
@rizen	don't page me	22:48
@preaction-m	freenode has seenserv	22:48
@preaction-m	perlbot seen rizen	22:48
@snapcount	blah	22:48
@snapcount	can I hail you?	22:48
@preaction-m	perlbot doesn't	22:48
@rizen	no hailing, paging, or yelling at me	22:49
@snapcount	what if I whisper	22:49
@rizen	you can bow before me if you want though	22:49
@snapcount	I want to know how you want something to work	22:50
@snapcount	so I can uhh, make it work	22:50
@snapcount	http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/wiki-deleting-pages#1N7SMyGT56ji8X2z6qc4zg	22:50
@rizen	deleted pages suck	22:51
@snapcount	indeed	22:51
@snapcount	so a new "suck" flag in the schema should do the trick	22:51
@rizen	i assume you already added the delete confirmation, right?	22:52
@rizen	so now all we need to solve is the recent pages thing?	22:52
@snapcount	not yet... was going to fix it all at once	22:52
@snapcount	you just the recent pages	22:52
@snapcount	all I need you for	22:52
@snapcount	just wasn't sure how it should work	22:52
@rizen	it needs to do one of two things	22:52
@rizen	i'll let you decide which you'd rather do	22:52
@rizen	a) when a page is deleted, don't show that entry in the recent changes log	22:53
@rizen	or any revisions of it in the recent changes	22:53
@rizen	b) show "Page deleted by X on 1/13/2006" without linking the title	22:54
@rizen	but then add a (Restore) link in parens	22:54
@rizen	that undeletes it	22:54
@snapcount	only wiki admins see restore correct	22:54
@rizen	right	22:54
@snapcount	ok	22:54
@snapcount	thx homey	22:54
@rizen	not your homey	22:54
@snapcount	you can be my "dogg"	22:55
@preaction-m	if only wiki admins can see "restore" then only they should be able to delete	22:55
@snapcount	note the double g	22:55
@snapcount	that's how it is preaction-m	22:55
@rizen	right, only wiki admins should be able to delete	22:55
ckotil	sure thing iggy popp	22:55
@preaction-m	k, making sure	22:55
@rizen	i won't be your dogg either	22:55
@snapcount	gawd...	22:55
@rizen	if you were from australia, i'd be your mate	22:55
@rizen	but you're not	22:55
@snapcount	whoa	22:55
@rizen	so you can't do that either	22:55
@snapcount	"check please"	22:56
@snapcount	hehe	22:56
@rizen	cuz "mate" means something totally different here	22:56
ckotil	heh	22:56
@rizen	tell you what snapcount	22:56
@preaction-m	roy's from FL, can he be your rich, senile, elderly relative?	22:56
@snapcount	ouch	22:56
@rizen	i'll be happy to be "the thorn in your side"	22:56
@rizen	or "the thing that should not be"	22:57
@rizen	or "a pain in your ass"	22:57
@snapcount	oh... btw, I think Koen is interested in sponsoring a demo server	22:57
@snapcount	he posted to the dev list about it	22:57
@rizen	yeah and i posted a response	22:58
@snapcount	ok you can be the "pain in the ass" cuz I can abbreviate it easily	22:58
@rizen	sponsoring a demo server doesn't do anyone much good though	22:58
@rizen	cuz it doesnt' solve any existing problems	22:58
@snapcount	ahh	23:00
@snapcount	damn spammers	23:00
@snapcount	I think it's cool that he offered though	23:01
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@rizen	i just asked him if he'd be interested in running forge.webgui.org	23:07
@snapcount	sweet	23:07
@rizen	instead of setting up a seperate demo server that doesn't serve any need	23:07
@rizen	forge.webgui.org would be really cool	23:07
@rizen	but the problem i've seen so far is	23:07
ckotil	pronounced for-hey ?	23:07
@rizen	that there are no good free forge packages out there	23:07
@rizen	i looked into buying source forge for webgui	23:08
@rizen	and it was going to be 10k or something rediculous	23:08
ckotil	ah.jeezus	23:08
ckotil	we have a source forge account for one of our apps. router proxy	23:08
ckotil	i cant believe it would have costed that much	23:08
@rizen	we have a source forge account for webgui too	23:08
ckotil	is it 10 grand because of the complexity of webgui?	23:08
@rizen	but i mean to run a seperate forge system for webgui	23:09
ckotil	i see.	23:09
@rizen	if you're just out on sourceforge.net	23:09
@rizen	it's free	23:09
@rizen	but if you want to run your own forge	23:09
@rizen	that's when they charge you	23:09
* ckotil nods		23:09
ckotil	s/rape/charge	23:09
@rizen	indeed	23:09
@snapcount	preaction-m: what time do you want to get started tomorrow on the release?	23:22
@snapcount	need to start by 9a your time cause I have to get other stuff done	23:23
@snapcount	but we can start earlier if you would like	23:23
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@snapcount	nice of you to join us again perlDreamer	23:24
perlDreamer	you intercepted a Ctrl-W	23:24
@preaction-m	snapcount: 9a sounds good	23:24
@snapcount	preaction-m: coolio, I'll skype you	23:24
@snapcount	the first step of the release you need to do now though	23:25
@snapcount	email dev list and tell them no commits after 9a CST tomorrow	23:25
@snapcount	until the release is on pb.com	23:25
@snapcount	I got an interception eh perlDreamer	23:25
perlDreamer	similar to a rogue bludger	23:26
@snapcount	I'm afraid to ask	23:26
perlDreamer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bludger_%28Harry_Potter%29	23:27
@snapcount	that's another thing I miss is tinyUrl from the old bot	23:28
perlDreamer	whatever happned to WRE?	23:28
@preaction-m	perlbot shorten it	23:28
perlbot	Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/t7ci	23:28
@snapcount	nice	23:29
@snapcount	can you make him do it automatically?	23:29
@snapcount	the guy hosting him for us had the server take a crap	23:29
perlDreamer	sure! preaction-m: say perlbot shorten it	23:29
@preaction-m	or anyone can say it	23:29
@snapcount	uhh	23:29
@snapcount	www.foo.net	23:30
* snapcount taps his fingers		23:30
* snapcount whistles a tune		23:30
perlDreamer	snappy likes his bots automated	23:30
perlDreamer	Kari likes her toast butter-side up	23:30
@snapcount	lessWork++	23:30
* perlDreamer is confusing data structures		23:35
@preaction-m	perlbot shorten www.foo.net	23:35
perlbot	Shortened URL: http://tinyurl.com/ydvg6h	23:35
perlDreamer	that's shorter, all rightey	23:35
@preaction-m	that's hardly perlbot's fault.. you guys are too hard on her	23:35
perlDreamer	she's only doing what she's told	23:35
perlDreamer	I just don't get the whole URL shortening thing	23:36
perlDreamer	what's the point	23:36
perlDreamer	you either point and click, or highlight and copy	23:36
@preaction-m	if you have to remember it for a screen session, or a terminal session	23:36
perlDreamer	does anyone have a SOAP site that they use for testing the WSclient?	23:38
@rizen	i used to use google's search api	23:40
@rizen	but that's apparently gone now	23:40
@rizen	if you can still get access to it	23:40
@rizen	then there's a document in webgui done right	23:40
@rizen	that explains how to use it	23:40
perlDreamer	okay	23:41
perlDreamer	ah	23:42
perlDreamer	here it is	23:42
perlDreamer	hidden away in the Content Managers area	23:42
@rizen	snapcount	23:46
@rizen	did that rss feed bug i reported get fixed	23:46
@rizen	nevermind..ooking	23:47
ckotil	Is there documentation explaining the methods that make up a wobject?	23:56
ckotil	i understand some of them from looking at examples.	23:56
@rizen	there's the api docs	23:57
@rizen	linked from webguidev.com	23:57
@rizen	and there's also the wobject tutorial	23:57
ckotil	ok. thanks	23:57
@rizen	from the same site	23:57
ckotil	yah i went through the trivia tut, but not the one from WUC	23:57
ckotil	ya i guess all i need is here in the wobject.html	23:59
--- Day changed Wed Jan 10 2007
ckotil	but...seems some are missing. like view and prepare_view	00:00
ckotil	are they missing or just located elsewhere?	00:00
@rizen	i don't know what you're asking me	00:00
@rizen	or what you're even looking at	00:01
ckotil	http://www.plainblack.com/downloads/builds/7.3.3-beta/api/Asset/Wobject.html	00:01
ckotil	im looking at that wondering where the methods view and prepare_view are	00:01
ckotil	prepareView*	00:01
@rizen	they are inherited from asset	00:03
@rizen	wobjects are assets	00:03
@rizen	the stuff documented in there is just the new stuff that only wobjects have	00:03
@rizen	so you need to go back one folder	00:03
ckotil	ah.	00:03
ckotil	makes sense to me.	00:03
@rizen	and look at all the files that start with "Asset"	00:03
@rizen	there are hundreds of methods defined in there	00:04
@rizen	and among them are prepareView	00:04
@rizen	and view	00:04
ckotil	kthx	00:04
ckotil	oh sweet.	00:05
ckotil	i cant believe i didnt grasp this sooner.	00:05
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@preaction-m	is it legal to use ^Macro; without the parens?	01:19
@rizen	yes	01:20
@rizen	as long as there are no parameters to pass in, no need to specify parens	01:20
@preaction-m	ok, so it's not that	01:20
perlDreamer	you tracking down a macro bug?	01:21
@preaction-m	a site performance issue caused by macro use	01:21
perlDreamer	which macros are being used?	01:22
@preaction-m	THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH SPACER GIFS	01:22
@preaction-m	looks like this one is using ^FileUrl and an invalid filename	01:22
@preaction-m	in a style template	01:22
@rizen	no one should ever be using a spacer gif	01:22
* perlDreamer remembers ^Spacer		01:22
@rizen	they should instead use ^Spacer(10,5);	01:22
@preaction-m	you should SEE how many spacer gifs they're using in this damnable site	01:23
@preaction-m	there's padding and margin CSS properties, that's what those are for	01:23
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@rizen	2 things	01:23
@rizen	a) this may be the cause of the error, cuz they specified an invald url somwhere	01:23
@rizen	b) spacer gifs will definitely not perform as well as the spacer macro	01:24
@rizen	i highly recommend changing out the spacer gifs for spacer macros	01:24
@rizen	and that shouldnt' be your job	01:24
@rizen	but rather tell the client to do that	01:24
@rizen	we can do it for them, but we'll have to charge them	01:24
@preaction-m	i'm composing a note to them, the "invalid asset url" has to be a macro being used as an argument for another macro, i have yet to pin down where that is	01:24
@rizen	using spacer gifs rather than spacer macros is about 10x slower	01:25
@preaction-m	nd i found the SQL problem, they're using a macro in there too, but not quoted	01:25
perlDreamer	s/<img src="[^"]+" width="?(\d+)"? height="?(\d+)"?>/^Spacer($1,$2);/sg;	01:26
perlDreamer	or maybe $2,$1	01:26
perlDreamer	use /isg for case insensitivity	01:26
@rizen	i'm having a hard time figuring out what to put in the admin guide	01:32
@rizen	i've already defined 11 chapters, and written four of them	01:33
perlDreamer	User Profile	01:33
perlDreamer	Groups	01:33
perlDreamer	DatabaseLinks	01:33
perlDreamer	Groups of Groups and privileges	01:33
@rizen	but that only gets me up to 41 pages so far	01:33
@rizen	all of those are in there	01:33
perlDreamer	Packages	01:33
perlDreamer	Prototypes	01:33
perlDreamer	UI levels	01:33
@rizen	those aren't admin functions	01:33
perlDreamer	hmmmm.....	01:34
@rizen	they are included in the content managers guide	01:34
@rizen	here are my chapters:	01:34
perlDreamer	Workflows and Workflow Activities	01:34
@rizen	Installation	01:34
@rizen	Backups	01:34
@rizen	Upgrades	01:34
@rizen	Performance	01:34
@rizen	Managing Users	01:34
@rizen	Managing Groups	01:34
@rizen	LDAP	01:34
@rizen	Database Links	01:34
@rizen	SSL	01:34
@rizen	Logging	01:34
@rizen	Troubleshooting	01:34
@rizen	More Resources	01:35
@rizen	You think that Workflows should go into admin guide rather than the CM guide?	01:35
perlDreamer	wouldn't the CM's use Workflows provided to them?	01:35
@rizen	i suppose so	01:35
perlDreamer	How about Replacements?	01:35
@rizen	part of my problem is	01:35
@rizen	that i'm both	01:36
@rizen	so i'm having a hard time distinguishing the audience	01:36
@rizen	=)	01:36
@preaction-m	nothing on Apache/Mysql/etc...?	01:36
@rizen	Yeah, I suppose replacements would be good	01:36
@rizen	Apache/Mysql are covered in the various chapters that deal with them	01:36
@rizen	install/upgrades/performance	01:37
@rizen	etc	01:37
perlDreamer	The Commerce stuff is going to change. Is it worth documenting the current state?	01:37
@rizen	the commerce stuff goes into cm guide	01:37
@rizen	at least the stuff that we're documenting does	01:37
@rizen	when we redo the commerce system	01:37
@rizen	there will be a whole new guide	01:37
@rizen	just for that	01:37
@rizen	i guess adding replacements and workflows will give me some more chapters	01:38
perlDreamer	how about the scripts in sbin?	01:38
perlDreamer	That's only a few pages	01:39
@rizen	i'm actually covering each of those in the relevant sections	01:41
@rizen	userImport.pl is covered in users	01:42
@rizen	for example	01:42
perlDreamer	There's not much to WebGUI Administration.	01:42
perlDreamer	Most of it is Content Management	01:42
perlDreamer	and Users	01:42
perlDreamer	isn't that the beauty of it?	01:43
@rizen	true, but i want to give people some real guts they can sink their teeth into	01:43
@rizen	i think i'm going to add a lot more examples	01:43
perlDreamer	clustering	01:43
perlDreamer	replication	01:43
perlDreamer	failover	01:43
@rizen	like crazy things you can do with loggin	01:43
@rizen	logging	01:44
@rizen	that's not a bad idea	01:44
@rizen	that could be a book in itself	01:44
@rizen	because there are thousands of configurations	01:44
perlDreamer	btw, still trying to find a SOAP server that will spew some data at me	01:44
@rizen	have you tried xmethods	01:45
perlDreamer	yes	01:45
@rizen	xmethods.net	01:45
perlDreamer	everything seems very unit oriented	01:45
@rizen	how about amazon a9	01:45
@rizen	or yahoo search api	01:45
perlDreamer	do I needa key?	01:45
@rizen	probably	01:45
@rizen	i don't actually use any of this stuff	01:45
@rizen	i personally hate soap	01:45
perlDreamer	given the state of the docs, I would guess that no one else does, either	01:46
perlDreamer	all of the pagination variables were wrong	01:46
@rizen	donorware uses it extensively	01:46
@rizen	but they wrote it	01:46
@rizen	and they use it for their own web services	01:46
perlDreamer	I'll email Mike.	01:47
@preaction-m	does anyone know how to disable the default apache on OSX server, i can't find anything in the docs. is it as simple as putting something in rc.local?	01:52
@rizen	yes its even easier than that	01:53
@rizen	Apple icon (upper right corner) > System Preferences	01:53
@rizen	Sharing	01:53
@rizen	Services	01:54
@rizen	Uncheck "Personal Web Sharing"	01:54
@rizen	done	01:54
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@rizen	ok guys...gotta go for a while	01:54
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perlDreamer	later, rizen	01:55
perlDreamer	howdy, Radix	01:55
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Radix-wrk	mornin'	02:39
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@preaction-m	rizen: you around?	05:50
@rizen	indeed	05:51
@preaction-m	i just failed an upgrade from 6.8.10 - 6.99.0 because OSX has an incompatible libiconv for the WRE 0.7.2	05:52
@preaction-m	did i miss something easy?	05:53
@preaction-m	or.. was i just supposed to keep using the 0.6.0 WRE until later?	05:54
@rizen	i haven't ever seen that error before	05:54
@rizen	but you're on intel mac	05:54
@rizen	we don't