WebGUI irc logs from: 2007-01.log

--- Log opened Mon Jan 01 00:00:04 2007
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-!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.2) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!05:17
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Radix-wrkHmm.. just realised why the webgui forum ratings are always screwed up04:35
Radix-wrkVisitor can rate forum posts up or down04:35
Radix-wrkWhich means that every web crawler under the sun is effectively activating rate up/rate down at random and screwing up everyone's karma as a consequence04:36
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Radix-wrkI'd love to know how to add a page to the community wiki06:55
Radix-wrkLOL - http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help?sortBy=rating07:11
Radix-wrka rating of 199407:11
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nutrinoAre there any known security bugs with webgui?16:39
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ckotil^ any known security bugs? 16:41
ckotilyeah im having some major issues.17:35
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+crythiasHNY and all that.18:08
ckotili get back to work and webgui has shit the fan18:18
+crythiasI have some info/tutorials that I've found on the internet for aua-style buttons (web2.0/3d/gel buttons)18:19
+crythiasin ANY case18:19
+crythiasthe question is should a list (navigation)  want to have same size buttons or size-per-entry?18:20
ckotilsize-per-entry, as in customizeable sizes?18:21
ckotilcould be usefull18:28
ckotilit'd be a nice additional feature18:28
+crythiaspeople don't do this, but I know you can use a 1px wide repeating background with attached endcaps...18:28
ckotilim guilty18:28
+crythiasI used this "trick" for the WebGUI 6 resizable theme, way back when.18:29
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ckotildamnit. i want the crawler bots to stop going through my http proxy19:50
ckotili think its killing my site19:50
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@preaction-mckotil: you hve a robots.txt?20:18
ckotila good one21:50
ckotili think i found teh prob21:50
ckotilfucking http proxy21:50
ckotilour log files are ~30mb each21:52
ckotiland its causing our whole server to seize when a crawler crawls the logs21:52
ckotildoes that sound plausible?21:53
@preaction-mwhy ... how can a crawler get to the logs?21:59
+crythiasbecause http-access21:59
@preaction-mwhy are the logs under DocumentRoot? is that how the WRE does it?22:00
ckotilthese are systems logs for researchers22:02
ckotilbgp rib dumps22:02
ckotiligp state dumps22:02
ckotilhave you thought of how to proxy large files?22:04
ckotilit seems the http proxy asset is ... dumb when it comes to large files22:04
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ckotiltemp files should be used for large file support, and use the in memory for smaller files22:05
@preaction-mthe httpproxy asset is dumb, period. it should not be used for half as much as people use it for22:09
@preaction-mfar better to open a vhost on a different port22:09
ckotili like to use http proxy to bring content inline with my template22:11
ckotili could use iframe, but that has its drawbacks & limitationst oo22:12
@preaction-mfor simple informational pages, sure it works great. but people are trying to proxy CGI applications, binary files, etc...22:13
ckotili tried the js http proxy22:13
ckotilthat didnt work quite like id hoped22:13
@preaction-mthere'd be a nice way for CGI applications to get "proxied" by having WebGUI execute the appropriate script with the appropriate arguments/data passed on STDIN22:14
@preaction-mas for binary files, or large files, that's best handled by another apache host/instance22:14
ckotilusing stdin eh?22:17
ckotilwhat types of stdin does webgui offer?22:18
ckotiloutside of building a wobject22:18
@preaction-mit'd have to be a wobject22:41
ckotilwell thats the next step22:42
@preaction-mcall it an "Exec" or "CGI" wobject, build in some protections to allow only certain parameters to be passed, allow programs that don't use CGI to be called (normal CLI programs, perhaps)22:42
ckotilyeah. they will start out very simple at first22:43
ckotilhell my first attempt at building a wobject, printed text and did an evaluation22:44
ckotili havent made one that accepts input. thats the next step22:44
ckotilhow hard is it to allow users to switch between templates for a page?22:45
@preaction-mon a per-user basis?22:45
ckotili.e. it defaults to one page and i want to give users the option of using a different template22:45
ckotili recently updated my template to scale the entire width of your screen22:45
@preaction-mi'm not sure if template form inputs are valid for user profiles, but that'd be the best way22:46
ckotilor plain scale to whatever size you desire. some people dont like this and id like to have a button tey can click to use the old template22:46
ckotilis that possible?22:46
@preaction-msure it's possible, javascript could do it22:47
ckotilcool i think i know how. use js to store and set the template varibale/url to whatever?22:48
@preaction-mactually it'd be more use javascript to decide which CSS file to get22:48
@preaction-mbut that might work too, the two different URLs, but that'd be bad22:48
ckotilthey use the same css22:49
ckotili made sure of that.22:49
ckotilwhatd be bad about itt?22:49
ckotilurl to the template that is.22:49
ckotilor is that determined even before the page loads?22:49
@preaction-mthat's determined before any data is sent to the user22:49
ckotilso how would i use js to change that?22:50
@preaction-mit'd be bad because you'd have to maintain two versions of the same asset, but if one was a shortcut to the other with an override....22:50
ckotilyeah...fuuuuck that22:50
@preaction-mthat'd be best actually, one a shortcut to the other, with a template override22:50
ckotilit could be done with css tho22:50
ckotili could have 2 css's and force widths to the one template. yeah, i could do it.22:51
ckotiloh use shortcut assets?22:51
ckotil& easy22:51
vidar_what are you trying to do?23:23
ckotilhave 2 templates. that users can choose from23:37
ckotilim not worried about it tho.23:37
ckotilim heading home. ttyl23:37
vidar_better do that with js23:38
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@rizenby a show of angry fists...how many people are actually here right now?01:27
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-!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 8 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]01:41
@rizenwe've got a live one here!01:42
@rizennothing at all01:43
@rizenwas just wondering if anyone in that list is actually a real person01:43
@rizenor if they're all bots01:43
@rizenmethinks we should put this channel to some good use01:43
@rizenand i was just wondering where we stand at this point01:43
@rizenapparently, mostly dead in the water01:43
@rizenso starting from scratch01:44
xdangerI'm just running irssin inside a screen so i'm "online" 24/701:44
xdangerIt's a pity that webgui doesn't have a more active community01:52
@rizenit's going to have01:52
@rizenthat's what i'm talking about01:53
xdangerbut... If you take a look at some php-crap, it's a good thing too ;)01:53
@rizenthis is part of my new years resolution for webgui01:53
@rizenwe will have a much stronger community by the end of 200701:53
xdangerthere are so many crapy unuseful plugins for joomla! for examble01:53
@rizenpart of the reason people think that the community is small for webgui01:54
@rizenis that webgui has so many more features than most of it's competitors01:54
@rizenit doesn't need as many plugins01:54
@rizencuz it already has that stuff built in01:54
xdangerthere are so many crapy unuseful plugins for <insert something made with php based on a community> for example01:54
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@rizenbut people using webgui are using it to do real work01:55
@rizenthey aren't using it for their family home page for the most part01:55
@rizenthat's the difference between us and joomla01:55
@rizenwebgui gets shit done01:55
xdangerthere's not a lot of "whisels and bells" (cant type that correctly) in webgui, but you can do thouse with a couple of plugins&template alterations =)01:55
@rizenwhat kinds of whistles and bells would you like?01:56
xdangeryup, I acctually was thinking of doing a "family page" with webgui... and have each member have their own pages and galleries...01:56
@rizenyeah, i'm sorry...i didn't mean to say that you can't use it for your family home page01:57
@rizeni use it for mine01:57
xdangernot me... my clients say that this doesn't have something and I think about it overnight and then tell them 2-4 different ways to acomplish their goal...01:57
@rizenjust that most of our users are business and colleges01:57
@rizennot home users01:57
xdangeryup, webgui - not for beginners administrators...01:58
xdangerwhou wre has helped a lot01:58
@rizenyup, templates give you a lot of power01:58
@rizenthis month and next i'm writing a whole new wre01:58
@rizenwith GUI management tools01:58
@rizeni'm hoping to have it out the door by march01:59
xdangernice... so Is that the 0.8 that someone talked about?01:59
@rizenwe'll probably put out a few more 0.7 patches01:59
xdangerok, so can stop waiting for that =)01:59
@rizenbut no new dev is going into that01:59
@rizenall new dev is going into wre 0.801:59
xdangerJust before christmas I was just testing our upgrade path 6.8.10->7.2.3...02:00
xdangerI'm a bit worried about spectre02:00
xdangeris it stable/safe02:00
xdangerI know that you have tested it and so one, but still =)02:01
@rizento be honest i'm worried about spectre too02:01
@rizenit's not as good as it needs to be02:01
@rizenbut i wouldn't have known that if i didn't release it02:01
@rizennow that it's out in the wild, i can see how people are using it02:01
@rizenand what problems they're having02:01
xdangera server writen in perl is something that I'm not comfortable with02:02
@rizenso now i can make improvements02:02
@rizenoh...that's not a problem02:02
@rizeni've written dozens of those02:02
@rizenthey're as stable and safe as anything els02:02
@rizenif written correctly02:02
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xdangeryeah, I know that they work and so one, but still...02:02
cap10morganIs there a way to edit a style template via the API?02:03
@rizenspectre is my first attempt at writing a POE based server02:03
cap10morganor even just access one and then put a different one back? (i.e. edit it via other means)02:03
xdangerI'm did some reading on perlbal and mogilefs, and It's crazy that they wrote thouse in perl =D02:03
@rizenyes there is cap02:03
cap10morganrizen: great02:03
@rizenhere's how it works02:03
@rizenmy $template = WebGUI::Asset->new($session, $assetId, "WebGUI::Asset::Template", $version);02:04
xdangerwhen I tested POE, it wasn't so stable then... and the progres was a littee stale at the begining...02:04
@rizenYou can leave off $version if you just want to retrieve the most recent one02:04
@rizenthen you just do02:04
cap10morganrizen: cool, makes sense. thank you.02:05
@rizenAfter you've made that edit02:05
@rizenyou'll have to commit02:05
xdangerand commit? or does that commit?02:05
@rizenyou can either do that vie code02:05
xdangero =)02:05
@rizenvia code02:05
@rizenor you can do it via the web interface02:05
@rizendoing it via code works like this:02:06
@rizenThat's the one liner02:06
@rizenTo commit the current working tag.02:06
cap10morgancool, i think i'm all set then. thanks02:07
@rizenxdanger: perlbal is amazing02:07
@rizennp cap02:07
xdangerIt is...02:08
xdangerHave you taken a look at gearman? from "danga" also...02:08
xdangerYou could use that for a base for something like spectre02:08
@rizenyes i did look at that before i built spectre02:09
xdangerdidn't fit your needs?02:09
@rizenit would have worked great for spectre if i wanted to run spectre stand alone02:09
@rizenbut i decided that i wanted to use the webgui nodes02:09
@rizenas the worker bees02:09
@rizenrather than starting seperate worker bee servers02:09
@rizenwhich is what gearman does02:10
@rizeni figured you already have the webgui codebase loaded into memory in apache02:10
@rizenwhy load it again into gearman servers02:10
@rizenjust wasting memory...know what i mean?02:10
xdangerand spectres jobs aren't that heavy lifting... we'll maybe mail stuff...02:10
Radix-wrkspectre seems to randomly die on our server - no error messages or anything to say why - I've got a cron job to restart it every morning just in case.02:10
@rizeneven mail isn't heavy02:10
@rizensorry to hear that radix02:11
xdangerThat's what I'm also worried about...02:11
@rizenis there anything in your log that would indicate what's up?02:11
Radix-wrksimple fix at least :)02:11
@rizenalso, if you're using the webgui runtime environment02:11
@rizenit will autorestart spectre02:11
@rizenif it dies02:11
@rizenjust like it does with apache and mysql02:11
xdangerbut you have desinged it "the-right-way" that it runs the jobs when it's restored...02:12
Radix-wrkusing WRE here, but not the wremonitor - as it never worked for me02:12
Radix-wrkthe wremonitor would continually restart spectre02:12
Radix-wrkstill using an older wre tho02:12
Radix-wrknot tried 0.7.2 yet02:13
Radix-wrkand using webgui 7.0.802:13
@rizenspectre is much better in later versions02:13
@rizenalso, be sure to upgrade to the latest POE and POE::Component::IKC02:13
@rizenas they have fixed a lot of bugs02:13
@rizenthat were causing spectre problems02:14
Radix-wrkthat in wre 0.7.2?02:14
Radix-wrkokey.. might have to give that a go sometime then02:14
@rizenbut you can also do that from cpan02:14
Radix-wrkwe've been pretty happy with our setup, so not needed to upgrade really02:14
@rizenonce 7.3 comes out stable02:14
@rizenyou really should upgrade02:15
@rizenwe're fixing lots and lots of bugs02:15
@rizenin this release02:15
@rizeni'll be announcing my new years resolution for webgui on the dev mailing list in the next week or so02:15
@rizenand it's all about stabilizing webgui02:15
@rizenmaking it more robust, and speedier02:16
Radix-wrkgood to see you on irc a bit more too rizen :) - we're slowly getting more people on irc these days which is nice02:16
@rizeni plan to be on here a lot more02:16
@rizeni was really burned out at the end of last year02:16
@rizenso i needed to take a break for a while02:16
Radix-wrkhehe.. fair enough :)02:16
@rizeni worked for 3 years straight with no vacation02:17
@rizenand you can't do that when you put in the hours i do02:17
Radix-wrkyeah.. webgui 5-7 was a huge undertaking02:17
Radix-wrkyou've done a great job tho :)02:17
@rizenthanks. i appreciate it.02:19
@rizenhopefully now that all that's done02:19
@rizenwe can get back to building the community again02:20
@rizenand get webgui right back on track to being the best thing out there02:20
xdangerI'm amazed that you just didn't "start for scratch"02:20
@rizeni thought about it02:20
@rizenmore than thought about it02:20
@rizenstarted architecting it02:20
xdangersince you rewrote all of it =)02:20
@rizenbut then decided that i would eventually need to migrate all the content02:20
xdangerI like most of your ideas...02:20
@rizenalso...i figured that a lot of the code is good02:21
@rizenit just needed to be tweaked02:21
xdangerI desinged a hack for you... to implement multi-lingual content and stuff... but didn't have the time to make it readaple..02:21
@rizenso i decided it would be better to go evolutionary02:21
@rizenrather than revolutionary02:21
@rizenmulti-lingual content?02:22
xdangerOur biggest problem is that finland is bilangual country...02:22
@rizenyeah, that's a problem i decided not to tackle02:22
@rizencuz it was just too hard to do02:22
@rizenwithout making webgui slower02:22
xdangerOr at least finnish and english...02:23
@rizenif you can come up with some brilliance02:23
@rizeni'd love to see it02:23
@rizenmaybe we can make it part of the core02:23
xdangerIt can be disabled... but I have to digg up my notes... or my memories about that02:24
@rizeni'm sure you're not the only one that would want that02:24
xdangerI didn't implement it... I was thinking of building on the metadata that you allready have02:24
xdangerBut, then I got to think that a special versioning system on top of the current could be better02:25
xdangerAnd that language selection could be writen over via simple ?changeLanguage=Fi url call02:26
@rizenwell if you get your notes together, i'd love to hear your ideas02:26
@rizeni think it would be awesome if we could support it in a way that wouldn't cause performance issues02:26
xdangerI'll have to see next week...02:26
xdangerI think versioning could do that...02:27
xdangercache is a problem then..02:27
xdangeryou would have to check that it caches per language + object, not just object02:27
xdangeranother problem is administrading it02:29
xdangerhow would you edit it and so one...02:29
@rizenthat's not a problem at all02:30
@rizeni have a solution for the editing that works pretty elegantly02:30
@rizeni just don't have a solution for storing/retrieving the data in a way that didn't cause massive performance problems02:30
xdangerA smaller obtion is to incorporate a meta tag that identifies what language should be used in the current branch, and tune the system function acording to that.. but this option is just buildin a different branch for each languge, not the "multi-lingual assetData"...02:31
@rizenright, that's what we recommend people doing now02:32
@rizenbasically that you build out your english or whatever under one branch02:33
xdangerAnd many are going to do a different branch anyway... because some don't have identical structure for each language02:33
@rizenthen you create a package out of it02:33
@rizenand deploy02:33
@rizenthat's also true02:33
@rizenother problems are that sometimes you need the pages to appear in the navigation in a different order02:33
@rizendue to cultural differences02:33
xdangerthe problem with the branches is that error's and system texts are in the visitors language, not the branch preferred language..02:34
@rizenthat's a common problem in the US between the english and spanish speaking americans02:34
@rizentrue...but that can be fixed pretty easily02:34
xdangero, didn't even think that...02:34
xdangerWhat I think is needed is some way to "link" the different lang-brances together... 02:35
xdangersaying that en/home and fi/koti are the "same" page in different languages02:36
xdangerAnd maybe a fallback for some pages...02:36
xdangerwell no.. not fallbacks...02:36
xdangersomething like shortcut asset that would override the context =)02:37
xdangerI'm just thinking alout here...02:37
cap10morganstupid question time: once i have the WebGUI::Asset object for my template, it's not clear to me how I grab the actual text of the template (i.e. the contents of the template field in the db)02:38
cap10morganah, obj->getValue('template') seems to work nicely02:40
@rizenoh sorry02:41
@rizenor just plain get()02:41
@rizenwill also work02:41
cap10morgancool, thanks02:41
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xdangerrizen: one question came to mind... was brushing my teeth...02:49
xdangerWhy did you impleme storage in CS?02:49
xdangerand not do the attachments as assets?02:49
@rizenThey were originally implemented as seperate assets02:49
@rizenbut doing that actually caused the viewing of posts to slow down by quite a bit02:50
xdangerThis way you can't link to them inside webgui...02:50
@rizenbecause then i had to query each post for it's childrenn02:50
@rizeni understand that02:50
@rizenthat's the downside02:50
@rizeni wanted to implement them as assets02:50
@rizenbut it was just too slow02:50
@rizensame reason i switched them back on article as well02:50
@rizenincidentally..you do have the option of not allowing attachments directly on the cs02:51
@rizenand then giving people access to your media folder02:51
@rizenor a folder under media02:51
@rizento upload their cs attachments to02:51
xdangercouldn't you have just cached the select * from asset where lineage like '000000000100000001000000001%' and (className = 'post' or classname=file) ?02:51
@rizenthat's what i did02:51
@rizenbut you're not getting it02:51
@rizenit has to be done per asset02:51
@rizenand more importantly thatn that02:52
@rizenit's not the query02:52
@rizenbut the actual instanciation of the object02:52
@rizenjust trust me02:52
@rizenit was too slow02:52
@rizeni wrote it 02:52
@rizeni know02:52
@rizenit more than doubled the load time of a 4 post thread02:52
@rizenand it got far worse than that on large threads02:53
xdangerjust that couldn't you have left out "the actual instanciation of the object" and just load the right data for the picture in the query...02:54
@rizenthat's circumventing the api02:54
xdangerbut I think I know why that wouldn't work..02:54
@rizenwhich means that i'd forever be updating two code bases02:54
xdangerthat "tweaking" =)02:54
@rizeni already have a code base for accessing the data02:54
@rizenwe have 200k lines of code in webgui02:55
@rizendon't you think that's enough?02:55
xdangerhell no!02:55
xdangermore features ;)02:55
Radix-wrkpfft.. 200k lines is nothing ;)02:55
@rizenfor a web app02:55
@rizenthat's enormous02:55
@rizengranted...it's no where near the 50m lines of code in MS Vista02:55
xdangermy biggest project was something like 7k + lot of templates02:56
xdangerthat was a forum software writen in perl =)02:56
@rizenwas it better than the CS?02:56
xdangerIt was faster =D02:56
xdangerbut no...02:56
@rizenthe cs would be faster if it didn't have so many features02:56
@rizeni really need to subclass that thing down02:57
@rizenso it doesn't have to do so much02:57
@rizenor so that it does only what it needs to do in any given context02:57
xdangerrizen: I was thinking of writing a asset called "Gallery" in the spirit of Apache::Gallery... it would take in a folder in webgui tree and make that in to a gallery of it's content...02:58
Radix-wrkwe've got about 2m loc here.. all c/c++ code tho02:58
@rizenxdanger...sounds like a great plan02:58
@rizenwe could really use a real photo gallery02:58
@rizenprovided it was ass kicking02:58
@rizenradix: yeah c is pretty verbose compared to perl though02:59
xdangerthat's my work-around for the cs-pictures-not-in-tree thing =)02:59
@rizena real photo gallery is on my wish list for webgui02:59
@rizenbut there's a lot of things on my wishlist02:59
@rizenand only one of me02:59
xdangeroverwriting folder,file and file::image assets...02:59
@rizenwe need peeps like you that are willing to contribute03:00
Radix-wrkhey I got a wierd email this morning from plainblack btw03:01
xdangerjust that I don't have the time =P03:01
Radix-wrktitled "[bugs] untitled" with the content "has posted to one of your subscriptions03:01
xdangerou, yeah... there are weird post popping up on CS... the have untitled as a title and that url03:02
Radix-wrkno name given, and the url doesn't work03:02
xdangerhave had that problem with 6.8 ;)03:02
Radix-wrkHmm.. just tried to add a wiki page and got told I don't have sufficient privileges :(03:04
@rizensorry about that cs post03:06
@rizenadd a wiki page to what?03:06
Radix-wrkto the community wiki03:06
@rizenare you logged in?03:06
xdangerrizen: what is causing those posts?03:06
Radix-wrklogged in as Jesse03:06
Radix-wrkat http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki?func=add;class=WebGUI::Asset::WikiPage03:06
Radix-wrkbut when I hit Save it tells me Permission Denied - don't have sufficient privileges03:07
+crythiasI'm curious about something.03:08
@rizenyeah, i just saw that03:08
@rizenwe just upgraded and there's a new bug it would appear03:08
Radix-wrkokey.. least it isn't just me then :)03:09
Radix-wrkcrythias, I'm curious about everything. ;)03:09
+crythiasThere's a news article about CDL...03:09
@rizencrythias: what's up bud?03:10
+crythiasJust, where's CDL's mention of WebGUI?03:10
@rizenwhat do you mean?03:10
@rizenthe article mentions webgui several times03:10
+crythiasCDL's enthusiasm and resourcefulness with WebGUI recently paid off when they were recognized with a WOW Award from03:11
@rizentrue enough03:11
@rizenwho knows why it's not there03:11
@rizenit would be nice03:11
@rizenbut i certainly can't force them to do it03:11
@rizenit's their award03:11
@rizennot webgui's03:12
@rizenthough webgui contributed to it03:12
+crythiascertainly agree.03:12
Radix-wrkthe WCET guys don't need to know HOW they did the website though in order to see it's good03:12
+crythiasbecause they aren't using the <tmpl_var header>03:13
@rizencrythias...though it would be nice if you linked to webgui from your site when you win the "WebGUI Contributor of the Year" award this year03:13
@rizeni won't require you to do it03:13
+crythiasall my major sites link to webgui :)03:13
+crythiaspcanywhere doesn't link, and norton antivirus free downloads don't link...03:14
+crythiasbut my faq certainly does :)03:14
@rizenyour faq rocks03:14
+crythiasit's getting ... old, though.03:15
@rizenyou mean, outdated?03:15
Radix-wrkthat's where the wiki would be good to get going03:16
+crythiasI haven't had enough 7.x info to rework it.03:16
Radix-wrkwe can all try and keep it updated03:16
-!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!03:16
+crythiasstill no News release03:17
+crythiasbtw.. rizen, who are you and what have you done with JT?03:17
Radix-wrkI just got the sf.net notification ;)03:17
@rizenwhat do you mean?03:17
+crythiasWhat did I do to get nice accolades from you?03:19
@rizenwhat nice accolades?03:19
@rizenyou mean the contributor of the year award?03:19
xdangerhaha, most used word in this channel is... webgui! 1894 times =P03:19
xdangerweird =D03:20
xdangerusually it's somethinkin like "is" "but"03:20
Radix-wrkSpeaking of awards - when's doug's interview going to be up in 'People Behind WebGUI'03:20
@rizenis is is is is is is is is is is03:20
xdangerOu... maybe the stats generator leaves thouse out...03:20
@rizenperhaps it is is now03:21
@rizenwhenever doug fills out his interview03:21
xdangerenjoy: http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui03:21
@rizenhe'll be here tommorrow03:21
@rizeni'll force him then03:21
@rizenanyway...gotta go03:21
@rizenwow xdanger03:22
@rizenvery ncie03:22
@rizenok..now i really need to go03:22
Radix-wrkcool :)03:22
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Radix-wrkHmm.. another wierd one from plainblack just came through 'Announcement: untitled'03:23
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-!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui04:30
@preaction-mforce ME to fill out an interview? do i have to take a pichar too?06:01
Radix-wrkyup - or you could pay me to fly over there and take your pic, but you could buy a professional DSLR, nice lens, tripod and remote for that price ;)06:39
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@preaction-mbut, but, there's a camera on my new compydore09:00
Radix-wrkSo what's stopping ya then! :)09:17
@preaction-mnothing really, except the fear of people from New Zealand stalking me09:18
Radix-wrkyeah, kiwi's are a wierd bunch09:45
@preaction-mi suppose since our little soiree starts in 5 hours i should get some sleep...09:46
Radix-wrknite then :)09:48
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:10:20 2007
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:52:38 2007
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ckotilfuck http proxy18:01
ckotilit shoudl be rewritten....intelligentaly18:01
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ckotilim reall pissed off at http proxy18:42
ckotilif only i had known the consequences i wouldnt have used it18:42
ckotilits DoS just waiting to happen18:42
ckotilgranted, since i stopped proxying 30mb syslog files18:44
ckotilthe DOS has been slowed down18:44
ckotilbut i launced 3 instances of my webcrawler to my site and it killed the box18:45
+perlDreamerand you think it's because of the http proxy?18:47
ckotili know it is18:47
+perlDreamerdo they all hang on the same URL?18:47
ckotilwhen it rewrites urls18:47
ckotilthe crawler just goes on and on18:47
ckotiland it eventually hits some big ass file18:47
ckotiland then a million httpd proccesses get spawned as a result18:47
ckotilhrm turning off rewrite urls might help18:47
+perlDreamerwell, the http proxy is just a web browser.18:48
ckotilyah. i think it shoudl be more intelligent18:48
ckotili.e. check the size of files before retrieving them18:49
ckotilif over certain size, then do not proxy them. just link18:49
ckotilthat would solve my problems. i think18:49
+perlDreamerdo you hack perl?18:50
ckotilnot much.18:50
+perlDreamerif you filed an RFE with a patch it would probably get accepted more quickly than without it18:50
ckotilim just not 100% what im proposing would solve my problems18:51
ckotilbut i do know for  a fact that the proxying of pages is fucking up my chi18:51
ckotilvia http proxy18:51
+perlDreamercan you pull that asset from your site or limit it somehow?18:52
ckotili use it in too many places18:52
ckotilim going through and using iframe or turning off rewrite urls18:52
ckotilthats teh REAL culprit. rewriting urls18:53
ckotili wish i knew webgui well enough to issue a sql statement turning off rewrite url18:55
ckotilinstead of clicking through it all via the web interface18:55
+perlDreamerin all HTTP Proxy's?18:55
+perlDreamerthat's pretty easy to do18:55
ckotilyes. all. i dont want no stinking rewrite url. im sure it is, but i wouldnt know what tables to look in18:55
+perlDreamerupdate HttpProxy set rewriteUrls=0;18:58
+perlDreamerit's just 1 table since it's specific to this Asset.18:58
ckotilthanks man18:58
+perlDreamerno sweat18:58
+perlDreamerjust try giving the HttpProxy a hack to limit file sizes and see if it helps18:59
ckotili dont think it will.19:00
ckotilbc it was freezeing on our weather map whcih is only a couple hundredK19:00
ckotilits just the amount of proxying its doing19:00
ckotilthe crawler goes deep19:00
ckotilbc it ignores the configuration for some reason. i use htcheck19:01
ckotilwill i need to clear the cache after that sql statement?19:28
+perlDreamerno, but you should restart the server19:32
ckotili think ive manually turned off url rewrite and the server is holding up now with 2 instances of htcheck19:35
ckotilhamemring the shit out of the site19:35
+perlDreamerjust out of curiousity, how many clients is each instance of htcheck simulating?20:40
+perlDreamerare any of the PB staff around?21:27
+perlDreamerI think I can fix a bug, but it may slow down the macro processing21:27
ckotiloh man22:26
ckotilhttp proxy is an OPEN PROXY22:26
ckotilperlDreamer: not sure how many clients each instance creates22:27
ckotilaww that one didnt work.22:31
+perlDreamerthat's not an open relay, that's overriding the default URL.23:25
+perlDreamerIn an open relay, you should be able to fetch the URL of your choice from anywhere.23:25
ckotili dont see the differnce23:31
+perlDreamerthink about it in terms of email23:31
+perlDreameryou want to be able to send and receive email from anywhere23:31
+perlDreamerbut you don't want everyone being able to use your email server23:31
xdangero fuck, and fuck again... my php guy quit...23:51
xdangerand the project is behind schedule...23:51
+perlDreamerI don't suppose using perl is an option?23:53
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@preaction-m./mode #webgui +o rizzo17:17
@rizzoBUG FIX DAY!!!!17:17
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@preaction-mfrank with the high-quality nickname :p17:27
@n1cks3rv3suxnothing is available and now some jackass has registered my nick17:28
@preaction-m./msg nickserv help17:28
@preaction-m./msg nickserv help register17:29
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@preaction-msomeone should give me founder access, or at least access enough to change access levels19:11
@preaction-mso i can add khenn (frank) and meatbot (steve)19:11
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bopbophello everyone!19:12
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@preaction-mWith great power comes great responsibility: Use your +o wisely19:14
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perlmWhat is driving the extremely rapid development of WebGUI?  It seems like a new beta is released every two weeks.20:08
@preaction-mit's more: what is keeping it beta and not stable, and those are bugs20:11
@rizenwe have a 1 week maintenance cycle20:11
@preaction-mwe're changing from a weekly release cycle i believe, we're in our yearly staff meeting, which is why there's a population here20:11
@rizenmeaning, that we put out a new release every week20:11
@rizenthe new release is to put out bug fixes20:11
@rizenhowever, if the bugs are signifcant enough20:12
@rizenthen we can't in good concience release it as stable20:12
@rizenso we put out new betas20:12
@rizenso people can test with the newly fixed bugs20:12
@rizenor use the new beta in production if they are either daring or stupid or both20:12
perlmI live on the edge.  We'll be going production with your Betas :D20:12
@rizenWe run our betas as well20:16
@rizenWe figure if we can't run it, then no one else should either20:16
@rizenBut the difference is, that we know how to fix it if all hell breaks loose20:16
@rizenand most people done20:16
@rizendon't 20:16
@rizenso we don't recommend that anyone ever use the betas in production20:16
perlmI'll just make sure to take a snapshot of the DB before we turn the users loose.20:17
@preaction-mrecommended with every upgrade20:17
@rizenkeep very regular backups20:17
@rizenat least nightly20:17
perlmI'm just pumped that I finally got the okay to migrate to WebGUI.  Woot.  20:18
perlmHope the meeting goes well, I'm off to lunch.20:18
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@rizenDoo doo doo do doooo00:35
@rizenPinky and the Brain00:36
@rizenPinky and the Brain00:36
@rizenOne is a genius00:36
@rizenThe other's insane00:36
@rizenThey're pinky and the brain00:36
@rizenpinky and the brain00:36
@rizenpinky and the brain brain brain brain brain00:36
* snapcount kicks rizen with a stale trout01:06
@rizensnapcount goes down faster than a thai hooker01:07
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+perlDreamermaybe I should add that particular condition to the macro test to see what's going on.01:41
@preaction-mhooray for public declaration!01:41
@snapcountso the first step is to see if the returned quotes actually break nesting01:41
@snapcountthen we discuss RFE or Bug01:41
* preaction-m submits a Freedom of Information Act Request01:41
+perlDreamerwhat do you wanna know?01:42
@preaction-meh, just interested to keep watching and input if necesserary01:42
+perlDreamersnapcount, I'm pretty sure it's quotes due to the regex on lines 139-14101:42
@rizenis(1+1, 2, "Check my math.");01:42
@preaction-m401 Forbidden01:43
* perlDreamer is haunted by bad WUC talk examples01:43
@snapcountJT says it's not an RFE or Bug01:44
+perlDreameralso, btw, I tried caching Macro compiles to get rid of the eval in WebGUI::Macro::process and it actually slowed things down.01:44
@snapcountunless you have a way to fix it that rulez01:44
@snapcountsmarter macro parcer ++01:44
@snapcountI'm not familiar with it01:45
@snapcountdoes it rock your socks off?01:45
+perlDreamerIt looks like it could be our smarter parser01:46
+perlDreamerbut maybe so could Text::CSV since that's essentially what the macro args are01:46
@preaction-mmight I suggest WebGUI::Text qw( :csv );?01:47
+perlDreamerqw(splitCSV) ?01:47
@preaction-mor that, :csv exports them both01:47
+perlDreamernm, I see the export tag now01:47
+perlDreamersorry, my bad01:47
+perlDreamerneed to change that warn to something else using session01:48
+perlDreamerin splitCSV01:49
+perlDreamerpreaction-m: do you want me to log that as a bug or do you want to fix it up?01:50
@preaction-mperlDreamer: no, WebGUI::Text doesn't get a Session object01:53
+perlDreamerdude, it needs one.01:53
@preaction-mwe're also doing something different with error handling/trapping01:53
@preaction-mno it doesn't01:53
@preaction-mit would only need it for error handling01:53
+perlDreamerso some errors get thrown to error.log and some get thrown to webgui.log?01:53
@preaction-mbasically, at the moment at least01:54
@preaction-mwe've got the new WebGUI (Perl) Best Practices book01:54
+perlDreamerand it recommends handling error logging differently?01:55
+perlDreamerbtw, the only place WebGUI uses bare warn is in the Config.pm01:56
@preaction-mwell, it showed that Perl can do try/catch, apparently that was unknown around here :P01:56
@preaction-mand croak and carp for stack traces01:56
@preaction-mso the warn is wrong, it should carp, we might have to redirect $SIG{warn} to output to the proper webgui.log01:57
+perlDreamerdo you want that logged as a bug, then, so we don't forget to do it?01:59
@preaction-midk, it's not really a bug, it's just sometimes you have to go to the modperl error log to get some errors02:00
@preaction-mperhaps once we decide what's going on with error handling in WebGUI, we'll be able to go back and make sure everything's kosher02:01
@preaction-mperhaps a comment in the source02:01
+perlDreamerI'll let you handle it02:01
+perlDreamerI'll add some more tests to Macro.pm and then see how WebGUI::Text::splitCSV does02:10
+perlDreamermaybe some benchmarking, too02:10
+perlDreameralthough sometimes slow is better than broken02:10
@preaction-mbut fast is better than slow02:11
+perlDreamerlike, breaks faster than breaks slower?02:11
+perlDreamermost times ;)02:11
+perlDreameractually, I won't02:16
@preaction-mindian giver02:17
+perlDreamersplitCSV does internal escaping differently from the Macro processor02:17
+perlDreamerfor the Macro arg processor, we need something that obeys backslashes02:17
@preaction-maccording to the unofficial RFC for CSV02:17
@preaction-mText::Balanced might be prudent02:17
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+perlDreamerText::Balanced is slow, at least for extracting codeblocks.02:24
+perlDreamerI think I'll give Text::CSV and Regexp::Common a whirl02:24
@preaction-mText::CSV will probably pull the same escaping crap02:24
+perlDreamerit does02:29
+perlDreamerthat means it's time to go home and sleep on it for a while02:29
+perlDreamerg'night, all02:29
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@rizenplop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is04:36
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* snapcount yawns17:21
@snapcounttop of tha mornin to everyone17:21
Radix__evenin' ;)17:21
@snapcountahh yes17:21
@snapcountAustralia still hasn't fixed their sun being out of synch with Florida problem17:22
Radix__yeah.. we need a daylight saving + 12 or something I guess17:23
Radix__we're having enough of a problem with daylight saving + 1 atm ;)17:24
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--- Day changed Sun Jan 07 2007
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perlmanyone know any tricks for installing DBIx::FullTextSearch on a vanilla Fedora Core 5 machine/02:00
@rizenit's a bastard to install on any platform02:00
@rizenthat's why webgui doesn't use it anymore02:00
perlmit is still required in testEnvironment.pl02:04
perlmso I guess that means it is okay that I forced it to install even with errors.02:04
@rizenin what version?02:04
perlmlatest beta02:04
@rizenhmm...i'll check that out02:04
@rizenthanks for letting me know02:05
@rizenit's out in 7.3.402:05
@rizenas of now02:05
perlmde nada02:05
perlmheh, cool02:05
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@rizenis it really morning?19:04
+perlDreamerit is out here19:04
@rizenit feels like bedtime19:04
@rizenme = tired19:04
+perlDreamerup late?19:05
@rizenno...just a little sick19:05
@rizenwhich has been draining me for the last couple of weeks19:05
@rizenalmost over it now thow19:05
+perlDreamerweeks?  That's nutz.19:06
+perlDreamerI tried to fix Klaus's double header bug, and think I found the cause of it, but want to double check it with someone more familiar with chunking and header generation.  Game?19:07
@rizenwhat is the bug19:08
@rizenpoint me to a url or something19:08
Klaus_the entry in the Extra Header field of a style is displayed doube in source.19:09
+perlDreamerKlaus_: we should have you fixed up in a jiffy19:09
Klaus_I think we had this bug in one of the 6er versions already fixed.19:09
@rizenit doesn't sound familiar19:10
@rizenthere was a problem where19:10
@rizenyou could get double HTTP headers19:10
@rizenbut HTTP headers are different than head block tags19:10
@rizenand the double http headers were fixed a while ago19:10
@rizenok...so you have a possible solution here19:11
@rizenwhat is it?19:11
+perlDreamerremove line 193 from WebGUI::Session::Style.pm19:11
+perlDreameruh, 19819:11
@rizen198 out of svn or version 7.3.3?19:12
Klaus_My workaround was writing the tags direct into the style, not into the extra field below - but thank you for the hint removing this line from code.-19:12
+perlDreamerwell, I'm not sure there won't be some undesired side effects19:13
+perlDreamerthat's why I'm double checking with someone19:13
+perlDreamerit looks dead simple, but I don't fully understand content chunking and the header generation19:13
@rizenthe prepare() method is always called on every template as it is rendered19:14
@rizenand as you say, that does shove the head block into place19:14
@rizenso yes, we no longer need that line in Style.pm19:14
@rizenit's a relic of a day gone by19:14
+perlDreamerI'll add a new test or two to Session/Style.pm and remove the line.19:14
Klaus_tests on solved bugs were always good.19:15
+perlDreamerYeah, I'm embarassed to say that the present Style.pm test (which I wrote) didn't find this earlier.19:16
@rizenyou can't find everrything colin19:16
@rizendon't beat yourself up about it19:16
+perlDreamerI'm not19:16
+perlDreamerthis time :)19:16
Klaus_yes. but the meanwhile huge test suite gives an additional confidence on webgui. great! :-)19:18
@rizenklaus, do you write perl?19:18
Klaus_a litte bit. still learnig - even from webgui code.19:19
@rizenwe''re always looking for eagle eyed people to help us make webgui better19:19
@rizeni hope you'll consider joining the core developers, writing bug fixes, tests, and eventually new features19:20
@rizenone of the best ways to learn perl is to start out writing tests19:21
@rizenbecause tests are easy to write19:21
@rizenand in doing so, you get to look at a whole lot of the codebase19:21
@rizenthusly learning both perl19:21
Klaus_oh yes - I will do. Helping more than only reporting bugs and REFs.19:21
@rizenand the webgui api19:21
@rizendon't get me wrong, reporting bugs and rfe's is great too19:21
Klaus_I can give it a try in writing or improoving some of the tests.19:23
@rizenthat would be great19:23
@rizenif you need assistance, colin and i are both around most of the time19:23
Klaus_the next days im trying to bring the German translation into a productive state. The German usergroup is a bit small and inactive.19:24
@rizenare you using the translation server to do it?19:24
@rizenmay make it easier if you aren't19:25
Klaus_I'v used it the last months, now I've set up my own19:25
Klaus_Sometimes it's better to sreach and replace things over the whole translation.19:26
Klaus_On your server I can't do it on the translated files.19:27
@rizengive me the specs for what you want to do and i'll be happy to add the functionality to the translation server19:27
@rizenthe reason i like the translation server19:27
@rizenis that everyone can pitch in to work on the changes19:27
@rizenrather than having just one person do it19:28
@rizenit's easier to do as a group19:28
Klaus_Import an translation19:28
Klaus_Won't it be good having the translation server password protected so that not everone could change things?19:29
@rizenpeople have said that to me, but i kind of look at it as a wiki19:29
@rizenin that it works better as a community project19:29
@rizenif it's password protected, then all of the sudden it's back to a single user per translation19:30
+perlDreamerwe're probably small enough that we don't have to worry about wikiSpam (or translationSpam) yet.19:30
+perlDreameralthough someone did trash PDX.pm's wiki a few months ago19:30
@rizeni know it's possible, but we have backups19:31
@rizenand community process on a task this large19:31
@rizenis more important than worrying about spam19:31
+perlDreamercrud.  I found a FC6 bug.19:32
+perlDreamerEither that or I need to install the FC6 perl-image-magick RPM19:33
+perlDreamerI probably won't be able to get the patch committed until this afternoon.19:33
@rizenwhat patch?19:33
@rizenthe style one?19:34
@rizeni can do that right now19:34
@rizeni'll do it19:34
+perlDreamerokay, I'll commit the new test later19:34
Klaus_One possible way could be a "commit to svn" function in the translation server. The translators will better notice the changes from others.19:34
+perlDreamerThat's a good idea.  That way translators could also sign up to get notification when commits are made.19:35
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Klaus_BTW there are two entries for German that point to the same files: /German"/ and /German/. Could you please delete the Entry with the quotation marks?19:36
@rizenthe quote version is gone19:40
@rizenthe patch is committed19:40
+perlDreamerI'm off to church.  Be back later.19:43
+perlDreamerThanks, JT19:43
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+MrHairgrease\nick MrAFKGrease20:07
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@rizeni've almost got the commit to svn option working20:08
+MrAFKGreasecommit to svn from what?20:12
Klaus_I've ssen it. 20:13
Klaus_Commit to SVN from the translationserver.20:13
+MrAFKGreaseis there a translation server?20:13
+MrAFKGreasefr 18n files?20:13
+MrAFKGreaseoh cool20:13
+MrAFKGreasewere updating all the i18n stuff20:14
Klaus_or http://translation.webgui.org/ ;-)20:14
+MrAFKGrease7.3.3 is ready20:14
@rizenif you give me the files you've worked on so far, i can import them into the translation server20:14
@rizenthat is, if you want to20:14
Klaus_JT, should I mail you my actual translation to import it into the translatinserver?20:14
Klaus_Ok :-)20:14
+MrAFKGreasei'll send em to you tonight20:15
+MrAFKGreaseactually it is a ducth community project20:15
+MrAFKGrease10 people or so are working on it20:15
+MrAFKGreasei'm just tarring everything up =)20:15
+MrAFKGreaseother question20:16
+MrAFKGreasei'm gonna add a start stop button to the timetracker20:16
+MrAFKGreasefor use within oqapi20:16
+MrAFKGreasedoes that have any chance of making it into webgui?20:16
@rizenyour entire translation team is welcome to use the translation server20:16
@rizenwhat is oqapi?20:17
@rizenregardless, ,yes ii'm find with start/stop20:17
@rizenbut not until we fork for 7.420:17
+MrAFKGreaseoh you didn't know yet?20:18
+MrAFKGreaseprocolix split in three divisions20:19
+MrAFKGreasesepearte companies20:19
+MrAFKGreasekoen's keeping procolix20:19
+MrAFKGreasejoeri's started oqapi20:19
+MrAFKGreaseI've gone with Joeri20:19
xdangerI could contribute our unfinished Finnish-language...20:19
@rizenxdanger: more than happy to put it on the translation server, maybe you'll get some extra helpers to work on the translation20:20
+MrAFKGreaserizen: I'll throw it in the group20:20
xdangerI'll send it to you tomorrow in a tar20:20
+MrAFKGreasethe translation server thing20:20
@rizenno, i didn't know about the slip20:20
+MrAFKGreaseI reckon everybody is ok with it20:20
@rizenis everyone mad at eachother?20:21
@rizenor is all well in dutch land?20:21
+MrAFKGreaseall is well20:21
@rizenthat's good to hear20:21
@rizeni assume koen is the hosting/server guy20:21
+MrAFKGreaseas an added benefit there's beer in the fridge again20:21
@rizenjoeri is the dev guy20:21
+MrAFKGreasealbert ha20:21
+MrAFKGreasealbert now has his own testing company20:21
+MrAFKGreaseI'm happy with it20:22
+MrAFKGreaseno fights or whatever20:22
@rizenbeer in the fridge is good20:22
+MrAFKGreasejust natural progression20:22
+MrAFKGreaseit is20:22
+MrAFKGreasea pity that i only at the office one day a week20:22
@rizenit goes without saying that if you're ever in need of a job, i've got your back20:23
+MrAFKGreaseI'm very busy with starting to do my graduation stuff20:23
+MrAFKGreaseand will be for a year or so20:23
+MrAFKGreasebut no worries20:23
+MrAFKGreaseI won't abandon webgui20:23
@rizenso, does oqapi have some spare resources?20:24
@rizeni think we're going to need to outsource a project or two coming up20:24
@rizenactually...what's joeri's email address20:24
+MrAFKGreaseask joeri20:24
@rizeni'll just have vrby contact him20:25
+MrAFKGreasejoeri aat oqapi dot nl20:25
+MrAFKGreasegotta go cooking20:25
+MrAFKGreasesee ya20:25
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+MrHairgreasetwo suggestions21:02
+MrHairgrease1) in our ducth translation server we default to the textarea21:02
+MrHairgreasethe htmlarea adds to much crap21:02
@rizenyou can set it however you want21:03
+MrHairgreaseyou get buttons containing texts like Save<br />21:03
+MrHairgreaseI know21:03
+MrHairgreasejust a suggestion21:03
+MrHairgreasealso I hacked the thing to include 'motivational' status stuff21:03
+MrHairgreasesee http://geefmegeld.nl/root/vertaal21:03
+MrHairgreasefor examples21:03
@rizendo you have the source21:04
@rizenoh crap21:04
@rizenyours is based upon the old translation server21:05
@rizeni'll have to write it from scratch21:05
+MrHairgreaseit's trivial to implement21:06
+MrHairgreaseI know the dutch translation team liked it a lot though21:06
@rizeni'll do it21:06
+MrHairgreasethe commit to svn function is for countering vandalism?21:09
@rizenwell partially21:09
+MrHairgreasewe were afraid for that21:09
@rizenalso for going back in case of screwups21:09
+MrHairgreasethat's why we put the i18n thing behind a realm21:09
+MrHairgreasealso that helps consistency21:10
+MrHairgreaseconsistency as in translate this word with that one21:11
+MrHairgreaseenglish -> dutch is not exactly non-abiguous =)21:11
@rizentrue true21:11
+MrHairgreaseso we set up a word list on webgui.nl21:12
@rizenthe problem is that most communities21:12
@rizenunlike the dutch team21:12
@rizenare disjointed and small21:12
+MrHairgreasei'm babbling right now =)21:12
@rizenso we really need to allow lots of people to join in the translation process21:12
+MrHairgreasesure enough21:12
@rizenthat's why we can't password protect it21:12
+MrHairgreasei think so too21:12
+MrHairgreaseI'll propose the thing21:12
+MrHairgreaseyou'll hear the result21:13
+MrHairgreaseregardless of that a very recent version is tarred up in the contrib area on pb.com21:13
@rizenyeah, i'm not worried about that21:13
@rizenmore that the dutch translation is a good example of21:13
@rizen"how it's done"21:14
@rizenyou guys are the defacto international leaders21:14
+MrHairgreasei know21:14
@rizenyou do everything first, and best21:14
+MrHairgreasecomes with the territory =)21:14
@rizenmartin: sarah says hi21:14
+MrHairgreasesomehow there's just a big wg-user density in the netherlands21:14
+MrHairgreasehi sarah21:15
@rizenmotivators in place22:02
Klaus_Where/in which Asset are the promote/demote icons/functionality used in WebGUI?22:15
@rizenall assets use them22:15
Klaus_where do they show up?22:15
@rizeninherited from the superclass22:16
@rizenthe icons aren't used anymore, only the functionality22:16
@rizenthe icons are now only used by some assets for their collateral22:16
Klaus_OK, I thought I'm blind ;-)22:17
@rizenthe promote/demote stuff can be found under the class icon of any asset22:17
@rizenin the inline view22:17
Klaus_OK, thanks - I've found them(data form fields)... For translating it's good to see the text/tooltip in its environment.22:27
+MrHairgreasecool jt22:51
+MrHairgreasewould it also be possible to display the actual number of messages that are done/changed/new22:52
+MrHairgreasejust like in the example22:52
+MrHairgreaseThere seems to be a bug too22:53
+MrHairgreaseRedNeck / Form_Captcha22:53
@rizenwhat's the point of showing the actual numbers? it's just a feelgood indicator, right?22:53
@rizengives you an idea of how close you are to done22:53
+MrHairgreasestill only one to go22:53
+MrHairgreasei you'll do it right you use the actual number of characters or something22:54
+MrHairgreasebut that would be insane22:54
+MrHairgreasei just used the number of messages22:55
+MrHairgreaseThe RedNeck / Form_Captcha is saying it's at 50% but it is actually at 0% btw22:56
@rizenyeah, that's your fault22:56
+MrHairgreasewhat have i done?22:57
@rizenit just couldn't be my fault22:57
@rizencuz i'm perfect22:57
@rizenso it must be you22:57
+MrHairgreasei c22:57
+MrHairgreasein that case it's Koens fault22:57
+MrHairgreasewe agreed on that a year ago or so22:58
@rizenthat's true22:58
@rizenhis fault22:58
@rizenkoen's bug is fixed23:03
+MrHairgreasevery good23:07
@rizenso with the percentages23:08
@rizenwould you rather see 6/5023:08
@rizenrather than the percentages23:08
@rizeni just don't want to waste a lot of screen realestate23:08
@rizeni just put it in23:10
@rizenand it looks much uglier23:10
+MrHairgreasethat's why i put the percentages on the left side23:11
+MrHairgreaseand all teh other data on the right23:11
+MrHairgreaseif you don't scroll you don't see it23:11
+MrHairgreaseit's just for the eager people23:11
+MrHairgreaseanother idea might be to put de numbers on top of the right hand frame23:12
@rizenyour mom's a nitpicker23:12
@rizenand she dresses you funny23:12
+MrHairgreaseand the percentages on the lft hand side23:12
+MrHairgreasethat's true23:12
+MrHairgreasehow'd you figure that out23:12
@rizenalright, i put the ratio on the right now23:14
@rizenand on the detail page23:14
+MrHairgreasethat looks cool23:14
@rizenthank you for smoking23:15
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Radix__funny movie that one23:57
--- Day changed Mon Jan 08 2007
+MrAFKGreasewhich movie?00:09
@rizenthank you for smoking00:10
+MrAFKGreaseis that a movie?00:11
+MrAFKGreasethe things you learn after 230000:11
Klaus_sounds like I should have a look at the movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0427944/00:20
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+perlDreamerany clues on how to find out what this is:02:54
+perlDreamerhas posted to one of your subscriptions02:54
+perlDreamer  http://www.plainblack.com/Cm61332q9p9Sv_BxrjyXnQ02:54
+perlDreamerIt's from noReply@plainblack.com02:54
@rizenis it reported as a bug yet?02:54
@rizenif not, then no02:55
@rizenit's something i'm going to have to go through the database and try to find02:55
Radix-wrkI got a couple of those too02:55
+perlDreamerkind of02:55
+perlDreameralthough knowmad reports that he got a username, while this one was empty02:56
+perlDreamerit's like a workflow didn't get set up right somehow but still executed02:56
Radix-wrkI got two emails myself02:56
@rizenprobably depends on what was shooting out the email as to what gets put in the email02:56
@rizeneither way it's something that shouldn't be happening02:57
@rizenif the bug is reported, then thats all you can do02:57
@rizenwe have to take over from there02:57
+perlDreamergood luck!02:58
+perlDreameralso, I like the new email on the dev list02:58
+perlDreamerI'll start reading Perl/WebGUI Best Practices soon02:58
@rizenglad to hear it02:58
+perlDreamerdo we have an expected time for the 7.4 branch?02:59
@rizeneach time you ask me that i add a week02:59
* perlDreamer --02:59
@rizeninfinity + 2 weeks02:59
@rizenthats when it will be happening03:00
+perlDreamerbugList < 5?03:00
@rizeninfinity + 2 weeks, i've already told you03:00
@rizenbut since you formed that as a question03:00
@rizeninfinity + 3 weeks03:01
@rizenso we have some amazing contests scheduled for this year03:01
@rizenwe're bringing back the webgui community contest (wcc)03:02
+perlDreamerthere are other contests, too?03:02
@rizenroy should be announcing the first one next week03:03
@rizenno..the community contest is all of the contests03:03
@rizeninstead of being once per year03:03
@rizenit's going to be once every 2 months03:03
@rizenwe were going to do it every month, but we figured that might not give people enough time to work on stuff03:03
+perlDreamereven two months is pretty quick for some big projects03:04
@rizennone of them will be very big03:04
@rizenat least that's the plan03:04
@rizenkeep them reasonable to achieve03:05
+perlDreamerdid the content compression (which won the last WCC) ever get folded in?03:05
@rizenthat's a good question03:05
@rizeni don't know03:05
@rizenactually, i think no03:05
@rizenbecause we decided to do something more efficient03:05
@rizenwhich was adding gzip functionality to the wre03:05
@rizenit's far more efficient than having webgui do it03:06
@rizenif i remember right03:06
@rizenwhen we benchmarked it03:06
@rizenmod_deflate was 6 times faster03:06
@rizenthan the code in webgui03:06
@rizenand on top of that, it compressed stuff in the /extras and /uploads folders as well03:07
+perlDreamerthat's a lot faster03:07
+perlDreamerrizen: is there any sense in me working on the Product Asset docs?03:13
@rizenfor the time being, yes03:14
@rizenbecause commerce dev is put on hold03:14
@rizenuntil after we've achieved my new years resolution03:15
@rizeneven after that, the product asset will likely continue to have all of it's current features03:15
@rizenit will just also tie into the commerce system03:15
+perlDreamercool, thanks03:16
+perlDreameras far as I know, there are still no project for $dayJob next week, so I'll have lots of time on my hands03:16
@rizenuse that time to read pbp03:17
@rizenat least until 7.4 is branched03:17
+perlDreamerI was thinking about this: http://jobs.perl.org/job/514803:18
+perlDreamerso I'll be spending a little time writing a resume03:18
@rizennah, you don't want that job03:20
@rizenthey'll be paying you way too much03:20
+perlDreamerI saw that and figured the posting was some kind of joke03:21
+perlDreamerI've never seen salaries like that before03:21
@rizenwhen i used to work for $bigCompany I made $that++03:21
+perlDreamernot only is the salary too high, but there'd be no interstitial times for wG hackery03:22
@rizenthey're going to want a lot out of someone03:22
@rizenfor that much money03:22
@rizencuz usually when you get that high in salary03:22
@rizeneither they're expecting you to do 2 jobs +03:23
@rizenor it's a management job03:23
@rizenand the job description isn't a management job03:23
+perlDreamerAll the percentages add up to 100, but it doesn't talk about hours/days03:24
@rizenit also doesn't talk about how many other people you'd be working with to do that job03:24
@rizenit could be that the current owner dood03:24
@rizendoes all the work03:24
@rizenand needs to offload it to someone03:24
@rizenso he can do the new software03:24
@rizenbut for that much money03:25
@rizenyou should check it out at least03:25
+perlDreamerhack perl03:25
+perlDreamerstay at home03:25
+perlDreamerlet Kathy go to mid-wife school03:25
+perlDreamerget done in 3 years03:25
+perlDreamerinstead of 703:25
+perlDreamerdinner time, be back later03:30
@rizensvn commits for the translation server are now in place04:24
Klaus_good thing. what's the meaning of a yellow line background in the right window?04:29
@rizenthat means there's something there, but it's out of date04:30
Klaus_it seems you've also found a solution for the annoying trailing <br /> from the rich editor04:34
@rizenyou mean, allow the user to disable it?04:34
Klaus_they were not longer automatically added at the end of a (singe line) translation or was it luck when I tested it04:38
@rizenprobably luck04:39
Klaus_OK, was a long day. Time for bed. 04:39
Klaus_not for me...04:40
@rizeni mean, see you later04:40
Klaus_ohh. yes. bye!04:41
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+perlDreamerrizen: Want to do some bug triage?  You up for it?05:21
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@khennhappy monday!19:31
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@preaction-msnapcount: /msg chanserv access #webgui add preaction 30 <-- do it! :p19:36
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@khennanything going on today?21:05
@preaction-malumni project, i've got a few ideas about some ease-of-use for developers21:05
@preaction-ma nice script i want to make for switching between webgui instances on a dev box21:06
ckotilWe have a database that contains all of the contact info for customers, logins, etc...21:18
ckotilI would like for webgui's user list to be pulled from that database. How hard is that to do?21:18
@preaction-myou could write a custom auth plugin21:19
ckotilalready use one.21:19
ckotilfor CAS21:19
ckotil'central authentication system' developed at yale. then we put our own spin on it21:20
ckotilbut it works nicely with webgui21:20
ckotilbut i want my users to be pulled from our database. how would i populate webgui's user list?21:20
@preaction-myou want to migrate?21:21
ckotilno. i want to have a single location to store my customers info21:21
ckotiland users.21:21
ckotilits all in a single database now.21:22
+MrHairgreaseyou mean sync profiles with that db?21:22
+MrHairgreaseyou should have a look at the syncldapprofile workflow activities21:22
+MrHairgreasethere are two21:22
+MrHairgreaseone is called when a user activates him/herself21:23
ckotilldap. k thats what i was thinking. ill go speak with my db guy . thanks21:23
+MrHairgreasethe other is run by the cron workflow21:23
+MrHairgreaseif you don't have ldap available21:23
+MrHairgreasejust create your own plugin21:23
+MrHairgreaseand use the ldap as example21:23
ckotilgood deal. 21:24
+MrHairgreaseit is21:24
+MrHairgreasereuse is the best eufemism for legal stealing21:25
@preaction-mit's not illegal if you release the source21:25
+MrHairgreasethat's why i said legal21:25
+MrHairgreasenot illegal21:25
@preaction-min fact, the viral nature of the GPL requires that any custom code you write for webgui has to be released upon request21:26
+MrHairgreaseonly code you distribute21:26
+MrHairgreaseand i can charge for the code21:26
+MrHairgreaseor better said21:26
@preaction-mno, anything that works with webgui must be released under the GPL21:27
+MrHairgreasethe deliverance cost o21:27
@preaction-mbut yes, you can charge for it21:27
+MrHairgreaseof the code21:27
+MrHairgreasegpl is a distribution license21:27
+MrHairgreaseso if i keep the stuff inhouse21:27
+MrHairgreasei don't have to release it21:27
+MrHairgreasenow of course21:27
+MrHairgreasefo webgui this is not a problem at all21:28
+MrHairgreaseeverything you distribute21:28
@preaction-mand since PB distributes WebGUI with it, you must abide by it, one of the caveats of it is that anything you write that uses WebGUI must be GPL21:28
+MrHairgreaseships with the source automatically21:28
@preaction-mthat's why i usually release code under the LGPL21:28
@preaction-mdoesn't have the over-reaching viral nature of the GPL21:28
+MrHairgreasebut if you write your auth thingy21:28
@preaction-mit uses webgui's API, which means you must GPL21:29
+MrHairgreaseand just dploy it at your work only21:29
+MrHairgreasei cannot ask for the code21:29
+MrHairgreaseb/c you don't distribute it21:29
+MrHairgreasesee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl21:33
+MrHairgreaseunder the section 'common misconceptions'21:33
+MrHairgreasefirst item21:33
@preaction-mthe last paragraph of the GPL seems to indicate my position, but it's ambiguous and misleading21:34
+MrHairgreaseyeah 21:39
+MrHairgreasethose damn hippie software developers =)21:39
+MrHairgreasethe gpl vs. lgpl thing is much less of an issue21:40
+MrHairgreasewith perl code21:40
+MrHairgreasesince when you distribute21:40
@preaction-mindeed... hippie and nerd seem mutually exclusive21:40
+MrHairgreaseyou always ship the code21:40
+MrHairgreasehave you ever seen a picture of rms?21:40
+MrHairgreasenow if that isn't a hippie =)21:41
@preaction-myes, i needed eye bleach21:41
@khennYou can build and sell plugins for WebGUI w/o it violating the GPL22:24
@khennif you add anything to WebGUI's core, you cannot legally repackage and sell it w/o contributing it back22:25
@khennthat's the difference22:25
+MrHairgreaseb/c plugins are not linked againstr the core?22:25
@preaction-myou can sell the plugin, but not bundled with webgui, unless your plugin is also licensed GPL22:25
@preaction-mthe wikipedia article cleared all that crap up for me22:26
@khennI updated the Asset installer so that you can use .tmpl files rather than having to hardcode your templates right in the install code at the bottom22:29
@khennwell not the Asset installer22:30
@khennbut the code at the bottom of the Asset Template22:30
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@khennI haven't added it yet22:30
@khennb/c it's like 200 extra lines of code22:30
@khennoh, it also commits all the templates so you don't have tags from "visitor"22:30
@khennwhich is pretty confusing22:30
@preaction-mI like the updater more, the template editor inside webgui is clunky :p22:30
@khennyeah, it's nice to work with files22:31
@khennand then just -MWebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject update22:31
@khennor I think I had to call it upgrade22:31
@khennb/c of naming conflicts22:31
@khennbut if anyone wants the code, I'll be happy to post it somewhere22:32
@khennI think we will eventually add an install API to WebGUI22:32
@preaction-myou could use a seperate package inside the module, say WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install, then have the subs be part of that22:32
@preaction-mso you'd "use WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject;" and then call "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install::update"22:33
@khennyeah I dunno22:33
@khennok so who is everyone out here?  I know some of you22:35
@khennMrHairgrease is obvious =p22:35
@khennperlDreamer is Colin, right?22:35
@preaction-mradix is Jesse22:35
@khennthis is Frank btw22:35
+MrHairgreasexdanger is yukka22:35
+MrHairgreasehe is this dude from Finland22:36
@preaction-mPedersenMJ is a walk-in, iirc22:36
@preaction-mperlbot botsnack22:36
+MrHairgreaseI meant Jukka22:36
+perlDreamerhowdy frank22:37
+perlDreamerhaven't seen you in here before22:38
+MrHairgreasenow that everybody is here anyway22:38
@khennI'm usually rizzo22:38
@khennI've been here22:38
+MrHairgreasewhat do you think?22:38
@khennbut someone stole my nick22:38
+MrHairgreasetabs or spaces22:38
+MrHairgreaseand how many22:38
+perlDreamer4 spaces22:38
+perlDreamerala PBP22:38
@khennI usually use 322:38
@khennbut I can hack 422:38
@preaction-mi've already updated my vimrc to do 4-space tabs22:39
+MrHairgreaseyou guys are insane =)22:39
+MrHairgreasetabs are obviously the way22:39
+perlDreameryou can always use perltidy to locally reformat it22:39
+MrHairgrease_teh_ way *22:39
@khenntabs are too modern =)22:39
@preaction-mi'd prefer 8, and tabs instead os spaces, but vim does this automagically so it's no skin off my nose22:39
+MrHairgreasebut the idea is that everybody uses the same convention22:39
@khennmost languages use spaces22:39
+MrHairgreaseor tabs22:40
xdangertabs ;)22:40
+MrHairgreasemost lanuages don't care22:40
xdangerpython does... ?22:40
+perlDreamerI think so, just to determine level of indentation22:40
+perlDreamersince whitespace matter in python22:41
* perlDreamer shudders22:41
@khennI'm talking C++ (which is the only REAL language) =p22:41
@preaction-mpfft... use C22:41
@khennwell PERL is essentially C22:41
xdangerBut does it do some s/    /\t/; kinda stuff also =)22:41
@khennso ...22:41
@khennAnsi C?22:41
@preaction-mperlbot capital22:41
+MrHairgreaseanybody using emacs here? =)22:41
@preaction-mperlbot capital Perl22:41
perlbotPerl is the language, perl is the program, there is no PERL.  See perldoc -q 'difference between'.22:41
+perlDreamervim is the way22:41
ckotilheh, nano/pico22:42
@khennmy capslock got stuck =p22:42
+perlDreamerso who is ckotil in real life?22:42
ckotilchad kotil22:42
@preaction-mi will give serious props to those who can program efficiently in nano22:42
ckotilim not efficient22:42
+MrHairgreaseI always use vim in ed mode =)22:42
ckotilemacs and vi confuse me22:43
+perlDreamerMrHairGrease:  It's a good start.  It's like drinking light American Beer.22:43
+perlDreamerinstead of the real thing22:43
ckotilive learned emacs in the past, but then a couple months went by and i forgot all the shit22:43
+MrHairgreasewhat's good about that?22:43
+perlDreamerat leasty you're drinking beer22:43
+MrHairgreaseI once tried emacs22:43
ckotillight beer is like fucking in a row boat22:43
+MrHairgreaseand couldn't get out of the help screen22:43
+MrHairgreasekill -9 did the job though22:44
ckotilits fucking pretty close to water.22:44
+perlDreamerI couldn't figure out how to quit emacs22:44
+MrHairgreasei also tried light beer once22:44
@preaction-mlol ckotil 22:44
+MrHairgreaseon the first wuc22:44
+MrHairgreasethat was a onetimer too22:44
ckotilexactly you need a cheat sheet 22:44
@khennSomeday I'll be all Linuxish like you guys, but until then I like my GUI windows crap22:45
@preaction-mthe secret to vim is a good vimrc22:45
+MrHairgreaseso use eclypse22:45
@preaction-mand i need to get frank into vim at least, or barring that a decent editor (not Homesite...)22:45
@preaction-mjEdit would suffice22:45
+MrHairgreasevim sucks the first day22:45
@khennI can use vim22:46
@khennI just prefer not to22:46
+MrHairgreasebut after that you cannot live without oit22:46
+perlDreameruse gvim, it will let you keep a GUI22:46
+MrHairgreaseuse whatever you like22:46
@khennI enjoy my dev tools like split screens and line numbers22:46
@preaction-mvim has those22:46
+MrHairgreaseset number22:46
@preaction-mctrl+w n <- split the window22:46
@preaction-mctrl+w <down arrow> move to window down, <up arrow> move to window up, etc...22:47
+MrHairgreaseand besides22:47
@preaction-muse :h C-w <- for more information22:47
@khennas opposed to simply pressing the split screen icon?22:47
+MrHairgreasewho can work with an editor that cannot navigate with hjkl22:47
@khennI have enough to remember =p22:47
@preaction-mit's about creating instincts, like PBP22:48
@preaction-mlike using screen, or any program for that matter22:48
@preaction-mi'm using my newly paid-for Parallels to finally make the complete switch to vim, from jedit22:48
+MrHairgreaseso your on a mac22:49
@preaction-mmacbook pro. the first laptop i've actually liked22:49
ckotilthey're nic22:49
ckotili work on a new imac core2duo22:49
ckotil21" widescreen22:49
+MrHairgreasethey're too expensive for me22:49
ckotilim trying to get hooked up with a macbook22:49
+MrHairgreasebut i bought a vaio22:50
+MrHairgreasefrom the evil sony empire22:50
ckotilfukcing heater is on for no reason.22:50
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@preaction-mthis is the company's lappy, otherwise I'd be on my old-school AMDk7 2800+ running Ubuntu Edgy22:50
+MrHairgreasei run a 1800+22:50
+MrHairgreasewith kubuntu though22:51
+perlDreamergotta run to a meeting22:51
+perlDreamerbe back later22:51
@khennok, so how do I turn on color coding in vim?22:51
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+perlDreamer_afk:syn on22:51
+MrHairgreasesyntax on22:52
+MrHairgreasesame thing22:52
@khennhow do I unsplit the damn screen now?22:52
@khennok well screen splitting sucked =p22:53
+MrHairgreasecomplain more22:53
+MrHairgreaseso what ide thing do you use then frank?22:53
@khennI use Homesite mostly22:54
@khennone step up from a text editor22:54
@khennjust the way I like it22:54
@khennan old version too22:54
@khennnot the crap they have out now22:54
@khenncan you undo in vim?22:54
@khennthat would be useful to know22:55
+MrHairgreaseim vim 7 you can also say22:55
+MrHairgrease:earlier 10s22:55
+MrHairgreasewhich will get you back 10 secs in time22:55
+MrHairgreaseor later: 1h22:55
@khennwill that do all of the work I will do over the next hour?22:55
@khennthat would be pretty sweet22:55
+MrHairgreasesomething like that22:56
+MrHairgreaseif your drunk =)22:56
@khennI'll just do later: 8h and take the day off22:56
+MrHairgreasemaybe jt will buy it22:56
+MrHairgreasethat's how i do my job22:56
@khennI have vim 6.322:57
+MrHairgreasethat only supports u22:57
+MrHairgrease:help undo22:58
xdangerI use subethaedit =P23:09
xdangeron mu 3 years old ibook 1G23:09
xdangeron my23:09
@khennI use windows.  I'm just uncool like that23:10
+MrHairgreasewe know =)23:10
xdangerI've been planning to move to gvim7, but it's not quite there yet... on the matter of mac os x integration..23:11
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+perlDreamerboy it got quiet all of a sudden00:46
@khennI said the 'W' word00:48
+perlDreamerare you staying busy?00:48
@khennwe are very busy right now00:49
@khennhow bout yourself?00:49
@khennI hear you are on vacation or something?00:49
+perlDreamerwe're inbetween projects, so I'm way bored00:49
+MrHairgreaseyou are bored?00:50
+MrHairgreasei've been reading papers all day00:50
+MrHairgreaseit's really boredom00:50
+MrHairgreasebut some weird kind of numbness00:50
+MrHairgreaseit's sehr btw00:51
+perlDreamerI only speak German, not write it00:51
+MrHairgreasei usually only read it00:51
+MrHairgreasewhen i speak german00:51
+perlDreamerare you reading papers for your school project?00:52
+MrHairgreasegermans usually do not understand me 00:52
+MrHairgreasegraduation 00:52
+MrHairgreasei just started00:52
Klaus_wyh try you not to be understood?00:52
+perlDreamerHis American accent throws him off00:52
+MrHairgreasei try very hard to be understood00:53
+MrHairgreaseand sometimes i succed00:53
+MrHairgreasebut usually my girlfriend hijacks the conversation00:53
Klaus_I have no problems with my German...00:53
Klaus_OK - sometimes...00:53
+MrHairgreaseshe's better at foreign languages i guess00:53
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+MrHairgreaseonly in oktober right?=)00:53
Klaus_all the year- and right now...00:54
+MrHairgreasei see00:54
+MrHairgreaseyou know what00:54
+MrHairgreasei'm gonna get me my own dutch speech impedimen00:54
Klaus_what's a impedimen?00:55
Klaus_to improove your 00:56
+MrHairgreaseactually to improve my belgian00:56
Klaus_do you like to help on Webgui translation? ;-)00:56
Klaus_Sehr gut!00:57
+MrHairgreasenow if we only had jukka to flabbergast us with some Finnish the evening would be perfect00:58
Klaus_Webgui is missing a babelfish function.00:58
+perlDreamerPorque no hablamon in Espanol?00:58
+MrHairgreaseNo man00:58
+MrHairgreaseI don't speak no portugese =)00:59
+perlDreamerNot Spanish either? :)00:59
@khennI fluently speak every language except for Greek00:59
Klaus_I gave Spain a chance some years ago.00:59
+MrHairgreasenever been there00:59
+MrHairgreasedid you like it?01:00
Klaus_The langauge. Yes. But you mentioined: girls are better in languages.01:01
+MrHairgreasemy girl is01:01
+MrHairgreasecompared to me01:01
Klaus_she has adopted Perl Best Practices to foreign languages?01:02
+MrHairgreasei'm better in babling01:03
+MrHairgreaseso i'm better at perl01:03
+MrHairgreasemy guess is she doesn't even wan to touch the book01:04
+MrHairgreaseanybody read the Perl Hacks book btw?01:04
Klaus_i can imagine.01:04
+perlDreamerWent to the author's presentation at OSCON last year.01:04
+perlDreamerDoes that count?01:04
+MrHairgreasedon't think so01:05
+MrHairgreaseI like it a lot though01:05
+MrHairgreasethe book that is01:05
Klaus_Not right now in my bookshelf01:05
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Klaus_I've just ordered it at the library. 01:08
Klaus_Author is Conway - he worte the book on oject oriented perl?01:09
+perlDreamerAuthor is chromatic01:09
+MrHairgreaseconway wrote oop01:10
+MrHairgreaseand pbp iirc01:10
Klaus_Oh - it's the German translation I've ordered.01:11
Klaus_anyone read Extreme Perl? http://www.extremeperl.org/01:15
Klaus_I had a look on it some yers ago, but it seems still to be not yet completed.01:15
+MrHairgreasebut hey01:16
+MrHairgreaseit's free01:16
Klaus_I wanted to print the pdf version. Downloaded the pdf A4 version but it was in Letter format.01:19
+MrHairgreaseno big deal01:19
+MrHairgreasejust sloppy01:19
Klaus_I had a HP printer that needed pressing a button after each page...01:19
+MrHairgreasethat does suck01:19
xdangerKlaus_: http://www.extremeperl.org/f/extremeperl-a4.pdf01:40
xdangerthe link in the pages still point to letter version...01:41
Klaus_things never will change. world stands still. sometimes ;-)01:44
Klaus_I remember I had emailed that to the author.01:44
+MrHairgreaselater guys02:00
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+perlDreamerKlaus_: did you get any farther on the nested macro bug on your end?02:00
Klaus_No yet. No time, I had to do a lot of other stuff today. xsl-fo/pdf hacking. Will last for a fiew days.02:02
+perlDreamerYou know xsl-fo?02:02
Klaus_and svg02:03
+perlDreamerI've been wanting to make a PDF of the online wG help, but everything I've tried is either proprietary or bad.02:03
+perlDreamerDo you have any pointers for someone wanting to start with xsl-fo?02:04
Klaus_install fop, for documentation use http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/compliance.html some often wanted features are not yet supported.02:05
Klaus_producing pdf out of the dokus with fop/xsl-fo I can help.02:07
Klaus_having your all-in-one help file as a valid and well formed xml file it will be easy.02:11
+perlDreamermost of it is XHTML clean02:13
+perlDreamerso going the next step to XML should be easy02:13
+perlDreamertime for me to go home02:20
Klaus_some small modifications and then perhaps tidfying will prepare the xml source. I will try do make a pdf prototype tomorrow or the next day.02:20
+perlDreamertomorrow? That would be awesome!02:20
+perlDreamerthanks Klaus!02:20
Klaus_me too. time for bed. its 1:3002:20
+perlDreamerGute Nacht02:21
Klaus_Danke. WŁnsche ich Dir auch.02:21
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+perlDreamermorning, all18:41
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+perlDreamerdid you read Ehab's post to the new year's resolution?18:42
@rizennot yet, let me check18:43
@rizenblah blah blah18:44
@rizenit's the same shit he's always spouting off about18:44
@khennI got 2 sentences in and decided it was a waste of time to continue18:45
@rizenthe second half is more interesting18:45
+perlDreamerI didn't get what he said about extending the free hosting period.18:45
@rizenhe's talking about the demo18:45
+perlDreamerfor bug fixing, it would be nice to have a more persistent demo, but it's something that can also be scripted for a dev.18:46
@rizenthe problem with it is that we get 1200 new demos per day18:47
@rizenand when a new release comes out that's more like 2000 new demos per day18:47
@rizenso there's a disk usage component there18:48
@rizenin addition, and this is the bigger one18:48
@rizenspammers like to use the free demo area to upload pages to use in their spam bots18:48
@rizenby cleaning them up every tday we eliminate that18:48
+perlDreamermaybe we should have a captcha for demo creation18:48
@rizencaptcha isn't foolproof18:49
@rizenmaybe it would help18:49
+perlDreameryou're right18:49
@rizenbut honestly, there's no reason to expand the demo that i can see18:49
@rizenhe said we should do it18:49
@rizenbut he didn't say wy18:49
@rizenwhy would making the demo sites stick around longer increase community18:49
@khennI read it18:50
@rizeni'll respond to him later18:50
+perlDreameryou're already doing docs18:50
@rizeni have to think of a nice way to say "no fucking way" to the wre suggestion he made18:50
@preaction-mit wouldn't work for the WRE, but it would be possible for someone to maintain a package-managed version of the WebGUI source18:51
@rizenthe whole reason we've made the wre is that making packages for every platform is rediculously time consuming18:51
+perlDreamerwould it be possible to reduce the WRE to a set of configs and scripts only?18:51
@rizenright, "someone"18:51
@rizenbut that someone is not us18:51
@khennI do think there should be an installer18:52
@preaction-mwell, not officially us. maybe me if i get bored one night18:52
@khennpossibly install anywhere or something like that18:52
@rizenperlDreamer: yes it is, but then installing the wre becomes amazingly difficult18:52
@khennnot sure if there's a free one of those18:52
@rizenbecause every system is different18:52
@rizenfrank, the new wre will have an installer18:52
@rizeni've already said that18:52
@rizenin my new years resolution18:53
@rizenbut it will be a home-brew one18:53
@rizenbecause there isn't a good free cross-platform one out there18:53
@rizenplus, i want it written in perl18:53
@preaction-mCGI or CLI?18:54
@khennhome brew!18:54
@rizenit will be cgi18:54
@rizenor more probably, POE/CGI18:54
@khennit won't be cool unless it has a splash screen =p18:54
+perlDreameroh, Steve...!18:54
@rizenit will have a splash screen...that photo of me with the axe that i took for colin18:55
@rizenthat will be the splash screen18:55
@preaction-msome ominous text "Your Web Solution Executes Now!"18:55
+perlDreamer"He didn't use WebGUI."18:55
@khenn"Please wait as we assimilate your system"18:56
@rizengetting back to the wre without prereqs thing for a second18:58
@rizenthe whole idea of the wre is to give the "it just works" factor to webgui18:58
@rizenthe wre without prereqs will require the user to install 10 billion things18:58
@rizenthere's no sense of 'it just works' with that18:59
+perlDreamerthat's true18:59
+perlDreamerand hackers can always extract the configs and scripts if they want to stay with disti-level software19:00
@khennunless we figure out a way to allow people to install / upgrade without having to do anything but type some stuff in, there will always be peopl who "can't figure it out"19:00
+perlDreamershouldn't the use hosted solutions?19:00
@khennie ehab's request19:00
+perlDreamer"shouldn't they"19:00
@khennyum WebGUI19:00
+perlDreameror apt-get WebGUI19:01
+perlDreameryast WebGUI19:01
+perlDreameremerge WebGUI19:01
@khennfuckinginstall WebGUI19:01
@khennI like that one19:01
+perlDreamerdisti level package management kills us in the ISV arena19:01
@khennif it's homebrewed, we can make it work19:01
@khenn1) download WebGUIsetup7-3-4.pl19:03
@khenn2) make sure you are root19:03
@khenn3) run ./WebGUIsetup7-3-419:04
@khenn4) done19:04
@khennsomething along those lines19:04
@preaction-mi believe there already is an emerge WebGUI (but it might be outdated)19:05
+perlDreamerbut does it setup MySQL and apache like the WRE?19:05
@preaction-mdurno, i hate gentoo19:06
+perlDreamerI'm not fond of it either19:06
+perlDreamerall those poor electrons being sacrificed to compile the same software over and over19:06
+perlDreamerit's a waste19:06
@rizennothing out there does what the wre does19:07
@rizenthe wre isn't just the utility scripts19:07
@rizenit's also the way we compile stuff19:07
@rizenwe compile out the stuff you don't need19:07
@rizenso that you just have exactly what you do need19:07
@rizenthen we configure it all such that it's pretuned to work for webgui19:08
@rizenin the best way possible19:08
@rizenfor most situations19:08
@rizenand then on top of all that19:08
@rizenwe give you some nifty utilities to make day to day administration easier19:08
@rizenno matter how much we worked on individual package systems19:09
@rizenwe wouldn't get what we have with the wre19:09
@rizenbecause we would have to use their precompiled versions of things19:09
@rizenor we'd have to fight with their precompiled versions of thigns19:09
@rizeneither way...not as good19:09
@rizenand on top of that19:10
@rizenwe'd have all the dev time19:10
@rizenbuilding out tthe package management system19:10
@rizenfor every environment19:10
@rizenrather than taking the slackware approach19:10
@rizenof just giving them a tarball that works19:10
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+perlDreamerpreaction-m: you around?20:26
+perlDreamerHave you fixed the gateway problem in the new Calendar?20:27
@preaction-mi'm not sure, it's not in the Event object that I can see20:27
@preaction-mI added a "url" key to the getTemplateVars method20:27
@preaction-mi've got to look through the Calendar itself and see if it's the one doing it20:28
+perlDreamerokay, Kristi posted a bug about it, and I was thinking that if you'd already fixed and committed we could close it20:28
@preaction-mbut before then I have to write a script to help me switch between webgui sources (I've got like three that I need to constantly switch between, it's getting annoying)20:28
@preaction-myup, it's my current priority until John messages me back about his 7.x upgrade20:29
+perlDreamerOnce I finish this CentOS demo at work, I can spend the rest of the day doing wG hackery.20:30
@preaction-mdoes anyone still have that list of bugs that need to be fixed before 7.3 can go stable? there's now a lot of stuff in 7.3 that people are clamoring for20:30
+perlDreamerI think Roy may have posted it to the dev list20:31
+perlDreamercheck the archives20:31
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+perlDreamerare we scheduled for a 7.3.4 tomorrow, or are we holding off?20:39
@snapcounttomorrow morning20:39
@snapcountpreaction-m is doing the release this week20:39
+perlDreamerI'll pray for him20:40
+perlDreamerreleases aren't easy20:40
@snapcountheh, it's an adventure20:40
+perlDreameryou've done some automation for them?20:40
@snapcountyeah it's automated quite a bit20:40
@snapcountpreparing svn can be tricky when there's a branch20:41
@snapcountbut this release will be pretty easy20:41
* perlDreamer chomps at the bit for 7.420:42
+perlDreamerI would like to be an RFE fiend for 7.420:42
+perlDreamerget rid of the last few remaining javascript-less confirmation screens20:42
+perlDreamerHelp system improvements20:42
+perlDreamerall pending approval, of course20:45
@khennyou can always add it locally and wait to check it in ...20:47
@khennI guess that gets kinda mess though with merges and such20:47
+perlDreameryeah, plus I'm overhauling the docs all the time20:47
+perlDreamerI could make a separate branch just for that, thought20:47
+perlDreamerI was only able to carve out 1 Gb for $dayJob hackery20:48
@preaction-mand just merge on tuesdays?20:48
+perlDreamerit doesn't really matter when you merge, although frequently is better than infrequently20:50
@snapcountI believe all of the JS confirmation RFE's came from JT20:50
@snapcountso they are approved20:50
+perlDreamerJT typed them in from SourceForge20:50
+perlDreamerso they have his ID20:50
@snapcountoh I see20:50
@snapcountI thought they made a user called sourceforge for that20:50
@snapcountin any case, just post to dev and say I want to commit RFE x, y, z20:51
@snapcountwe trust your code20:51
@snapcountI'm sure the response will be "ok"20:52
@preaction-mhe has svn access, i sure hope you trust his code :p20:52
+perlDreamerfe@r my l33t hacking skillz20:52
@snapcountof course we need a stinking branch20:52
@snapcountand before that we need a stinking stable release20:52
@snapcountvicious cycle20:52
@preaction-mi think we should branch right after minor releases, so 7.4 will have a branch, and head will continue development20:53
@preaction-mso bugfixes can be backported20:53
@snapcountthe reasons we don't are:20:53
@preaction-mbut opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one20:53
@snapcount1) to keep people focused on making a release stable20:53
@snapcountand not just working on cool stuff20:53
@snapcount2) merging to branch/head on every commit is a pain in the ass20:54
@preaction-mpardon me if i call bullshit on (1)20:54
@snapcountso we delay that as long as possible20:54
@snapcountbullshit?  there is no bullshit here20:54
@snapcountonly happiness and kittens20:54
@preaction-m(2) is just as easy as "svn diff > patch.txt" before you commit, then "patch -p0 < patch.txt" in the branched stable20:54
+perlDreameror svn merge -r rev1:rev220:55
@snapcountand svn commit is easier20:55
@snapcountI didn't say how much harder (2) was =)20:55
+perlDreamerI can't find the list of show stopper bugs for 7.3 on the dev list20:55
@preaction-msomething has to give, in some way it will be made more difficult20:55
@snapcountprolly a bug20:55
+perlDreameris it just bug volume?20:56
@preaction-mwhether it be by using another program that does the SVN commits, or by doing the steps above20:56
+perlDreamerthat's a bug, too20:56
+perlDreamerwhen I replied via email, it created a new thread20:56
@snapcountperlDreamer: If I remember correctly, we need to fix all the Calendar and WIki bugs20:57
+perlDreamerhow about RSS?20:57
@snapcountthe CS bug that I specified preaction-m has fixed20:57
@snapcountis it broken?20:57
@preaction-mi'm worrking on one of the calendar bugs (the one reported by kristie and alafondo)20:58
@snapcountoh yeah20:58
@snapcountthat's that new quasi-asset thingy20:58
+perlDreamerhey, there's another bug we can close:20:58
+perlDreamerRoy, if you have time, please check it out and see if it's related to the same behavior in the bug system20:59
@snapcountnot sure that's a bug20:59
@snapcountthink of it in the context of the forums21:00
@snapcountclosed issues you'd want to find21:00
@snapcountas well as closed bugs, so you know if they were found/fixed21:00
+perlDreamergood point21:00
+perlDreamershould we close it out?21:00
@snapcountmight be nice to add an RFE to limit results to one or the other21:00
+perlDreamerI'll do that with the RFE suggestion.21:01
+perlDreameryay! One less bug21:01
@snapcountrock on21:01
@snapcountok... back to other crap for a while21:01
@snapcountI'll peak in again in a bit21:02
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@snapcountPaging rizen of the Smiths whom hail from the land of cheese and dairy22:46
@snapcountpreaction-m: you need to see if your bot can run the UNO game22:47
@snapcountotherwise we'll have to off it in favor of an eggdrop bot22:47
@preaction-mperlbot is custom source, not eggdrop or anything else22:48
@snapcountwe also need to get seen, and calc going again22:48
@rizendon't page me22:48
@preaction-mfreenode has seenserv22:48
@preaction-mperlbot seen rizen22:48
@snapcountcan I hail you?22:48
@preaction-mperlbot doesn't22:48
@rizenno hailing, paging, or yelling at me22:49
@snapcountwhat if I whisper22:49
@rizenyou can bow before me if you want though22:49
@snapcountI want to know how you want something to work22:50
@snapcountso I can uhh, make it work22:50
@rizendeleted pages suck22:51
@snapcountso a new "suck" flag in the schema should do the trick22:51
@rizeni assume you already added the delete confirmation, right?22:52
@rizenso now all we need to solve is the recent pages thing?22:52
@snapcountnot yet... was going to fix it all at once22:52
@snapcountyou just the recent pages22:52
@snapcountall I need you for22:52
@snapcountjust wasn't sure how it should work22:52
@rizenit needs to do one of two things22:52
@rizeni'll let you decide which you'd rather do22:52
@rizena) when a page is deleted, don't show that entry in the recent changes log22:53
@rizenor any revisions of it in the recent changes22:53
@rizenb) show "Page deleted by X on 1/13/2006" without linking the title22:54
@rizenbut then add a (Restore) link in parens22:54
@rizenthat undeletes it22:54
@snapcountonly wiki admins see restore correct22:54
@snapcountthx homey22:54
@rizennot your homey22:54
@snapcountyou can be my "dogg"22:55
@preaction-mif only wiki admins can see "restore" then only they should be able to delete22:55
@snapcountnote the double g22:55
@snapcountthat's how it is preaction-m22:55
@rizenright, only wiki admins should be able to delete22:55
ckotilsure thing iggy popp22:55
@preaction-mk, making sure22:55
@rizeni won't be your dogg either22:55
@rizenif you were from australia, i'd be your mate22:55
@rizenbut you're not22:55
@rizenso you can't do that either22:55
@snapcount"check please"22:56
@rizencuz "mate" means something totally different here22:56
@rizentell you what snapcount22:56
@preaction-mroy's from FL, can he be your rich, senile, elderly relative?22:56
@rizeni'll be happy to be "the thorn in your side"22:56
@rizenor "the thing that should not be"22:57
@rizenor "a pain in your ass"22:57
@snapcountoh... btw, I think Koen is interested in sponsoring a demo server22:57
@snapcounthe posted to the dev list about it22:57
@rizenyeah and i posted a response22:58
@snapcountok you can be the "pain in the ass" cuz I can abbreviate it easily22:58
@rizensponsoring a demo server doesn't do anyone much good though22:58
@rizencuz it doesnt' solve any existing problems22:58
@snapcountdamn spammers23:00
@snapcountI think it's cool that he offered though23:01
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@rizeni just asked him if he'd be interested in running forge.webgui.org23:07
@rizeninstead of setting up a seperate demo server that doesn't serve any need23:07
@rizenforge.webgui.org would be really cool23:07
@rizenbut the problem i've seen so far is23:07
ckotilpronounced for-hey ?23:07
@rizenthat there are no good free forge packages out there23:07
@rizeni looked into buying source forge for webgui23:08
@rizenand it was going to be 10k or something rediculous23:08
ckotilwe have a source forge account for one of our apps. router proxy23:08
ckotili cant believe it would have costed that much23:08
@rizenwe have a source forge account for webgui too23:08
ckotilis it 10 grand because of the complexity of webgui?23:08
@rizenbut i mean to run a seperate forge system for webgui23:09
ckotili see.23:09
@rizenif you're just out on sourceforge.net23:09
@rizenit's free23:09
@rizenbut if you want to run your own forge23:09
@rizenthat's when they charge you23:09
* ckotil nods23:09
@snapcountpreaction-m: what time do you want to get started tomorrow on the release?23:22
@snapcountneed to start by 9a your time cause I have to get other stuff done23:23
@snapcountbut we can start earlier if you would like23:23
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@snapcountnice of you to join us again perlDreamer23:24
perlDreameryou intercepted a Ctrl-W23:24
@preaction-msnapcount: 9a sounds good23:24
@snapcountpreaction-m: coolio, I'll skype you23:24
@snapcountthe first step of the release you need to do now though23:25
@snapcountemail dev list and tell them no commits after 9a CST tomorrow23:25
@snapcountuntil the release is on pb.com23:25
@snapcountI got an interception eh perlDreamer23:25
perlDreamersimilar to a rogue bludger23:26
@snapcountI'm afraid to ask23:26
@snapcountthat's another thing I miss is tinyUrl from the old bot23:28
perlDreamerwhatever happned to WRE?23:28
@preaction-mperlbot shorten it23:28
perlbotShortened URL: http://xrl.us/t7ci23:28
@snapcountcan you make him do it automatically?23:29
@snapcountthe guy hosting him for us had the server take a crap23:29
perlDreamersure! preaction-m: say perlbot shorten it23:29
@preaction-mor anyone can say it23:29
* snapcount taps his fingers23:30
* snapcount whistles a tune23:30
perlDreamersnappy likes his bots automated23:30
perlDreamerKari likes her toast butter-side up23:30
* perlDreamer is confusing data structures23:35
@preaction-mperlbot shorten www.foo.net23:35
perlbotShortened URL: http://tinyurl.com/ydvg6h23:35
perlDreamerthat's shorter, all rightey23:35
@preaction-mthat's hardly perlbot's fault.. you guys are too hard on her23:35
perlDreamershe's only doing what she's told23:35
perlDreamerI just don't get the whole URL shortening thing23:36
perlDreamerwhat's the point23:36
perlDreameryou either point and click, or highlight and copy23:36
@preaction-mif you have to remember it for a screen session, or a terminal session23:36
perlDreamerdoes anyone have a SOAP site that they use for testing the WSclient?23:38
@rizeni used to use google's search api23:40
@rizenbut that's apparently gone now23:40
@rizenif you can still get access to it23:40
@rizenthen there's a document in webgui done right23:40
@rizenthat explains how to use it23:40
perlDreamerhere it is23:42
perlDreamerhidden away in the Content Managers area23:42
@rizendid that rss feed bug i reported get fixed23:46
ckotilIs there documentation explaining the methods that make up a wobject?23:56
ckotili understand some of them from looking at examples.23:56
@rizenthere's the api docs23:57
@rizenlinked from webguidev.com23:57
@rizenand there's also the wobject tutorial23:57
ckotilok. thanks23:57
@rizenfrom the same site23:57
ckotilyah i went through the trivia tut, but not the one from WUC23:57
ckotilya i guess all i need is here in the wobject.html23:59
--- Day changed Wed Jan 10 2007
ckotilbut...seems some are missing. like view and prepare_view00:00
ckotilare they missing or just located elsewhere?00:00
@rizeni don't know what you're asking me00:00
@rizenor what you're even looking at00:01
ckotilim looking at that wondering where the methods view and prepare_view are00:01
@rizenthey are inherited from asset00:03
@rizenwobjects are assets00:03
@rizenthe stuff documented in there is just the new stuff that only wobjects have00:03
@rizenso you need to go back one folder00:03
ckotilmakes sense to me. 00:03
@rizenand look at all the files that start with "Asset"00:03
@rizenthere are hundreds of methods defined in there00:04
@rizenand among them are prepareView00:04
@rizenand view00:04
ckotiloh sweet.00:05
ckotili cant believe i didnt grasp this sooner.00:05
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@preaction-mis it legal to use ^Macro; without the parens?01:19
@rizenas long as there are no parameters to pass in, no need to specify parens01:20
@preaction-mok, so it's not that01:20
perlDreameryou tracking down a macro bug?01:21
@preaction-ma site performance issue caused by macro use01:21
perlDreamerwhich macros are being used?01:22
@preaction-mlooks like this one is using ^FileUrl and an invalid filename01:22
@preaction-min a style template01:22
@rizenno one should ever be using a spacer gif01:22
* perlDreamer remembers ^Spacer01:22
@rizenthey should instead use ^Spacer(10,5);01:22
@preaction-myou should SEE how many spacer gifs they're using in this damnable site01:23
@preaction-mthere's padding and margin CSS properties, that's what those are for01:23
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@rizen2 things01:23
@rizena) this may be the cause of the error, cuz they specified an invald url somwhere01:23
@rizenb) spacer gifs will definitely not perform as well as the spacer macro01:24
@rizeni highly recommend changing out the spacer gifs for spacer macros01:24
@rizenand that shouldnt' be your job01:24
@rizenbut rather tell the client to do that01:24
@rizenwe can do it for them, but we'll have to charge them01:24
@preaction-mi'm composing a note to them, the "invalid asset url" has to be a macro being used as an argument for another macro, i have yet to pin down where that is01:24
@rizenusing spacer gifs rather than spacer macros is about 10x slower01:25
@preaction-mnd i found the SQL problem, they're using a macro in there too, but not quoted01:25
perlDreamers/<img src="[^"]+" width="?(\d+)"? height="?(\d+)"?>/^Spacer($1,$2);/sg;01:26
perlDreameror maybe $2,$101:26
perlDreameruse /isg for case insensitivity01:26
@rizeni'm having a hard time figuring out what to put in the admin guide01:32
@rizeni've already defined 11 chapters, and written four of them01:33
perlDreamerUser Profile01:33
perlDreamerGroups of Groups and privileges01:33
@rizenbut that only gets me up to 41 pages so far01:33
@rizenall of those are in there01:33
perlDreamerUI levels01:33
@rizenthose aren't admin functions01:33
@rizenthey are included in the content managers guide01:34
@rizenhere are my chapters:01:34
perlDreamerWorkflows and Workflow Activities01:34
@rizenManaging Users01:34
@rizenManaging Groups01:34
@rizenDatabase Links01:34
@rizenMore Resources01:35
@rizenYou think that Workflows should go into admin guide rather than the CM guide?01:35
perlDreamerwouldn't the CM's use Workflows provided to them?01:35
@rizeni suppose so01:35
perlDreamerHow about Replacements?01:35
@rizenpart of my problem is01:35
@rizenthat i'm both01:36
@rizenso i'm having a hard time distinguishing the audience01:36
@preaction-mnothing on Apache/Mysql/etc...?01:36
@rizenYeah, I suppose replacements would be good01:36
@rizenApache/Mysql are covered in the various chapters that deal with them01:36
perlDreamerThe Commerce stuff is going to change. Is it worth documenting the current state?01:37
@rizenthe commerce stuff goes into cm guide01:37
@rizenat least the stuff that we're documenting does01:37
@rizenwhen we redo the commerce system01:37
@rizenthere will be a whole new guide01:37
@rizenjust for that01:37
@rizeni guess adding replacements and workflows will give me some more chapters01:38
perlDreamerhow about the scripts in sbin?01:38
perlDreamerThat's only a few pages01:39
@rizeni'm actually covering each of those in the relevant sections01:41
@rizenuserImport.pl is covered in users01:42
@rizenfor example01:42
perlDreamerThere's not much to WebGUI Administration.01:42
perlDreamerMost of it is Content Management01:42
perlDreamerand Users01:42
perlDreamerisn't that the beauty of it?01:43
@rizentrue, but i want to give people some real guts they can sink their teeth into01:43
@rizeni think i'm going to add a lot more examples01:43
@rizenlike crazy things you can do with loggin01:43
@rizenthat's not a bad idea01:44
@rizenthat could be a book in itself01:44
@rizenbecause there are thousands of configurations01:44
perlDreamerbtw, still trying to find a SOAP server that will spew some data at me01:44
@rizenhave you tried xmethods01:45
perlDreamereverything seems very unit oriented01:45
@rizenhow about amazon a9 01:45
@rizenor yahoo search api01:45
perlDreamerdo I needa key?01:45
@rizeni don't actually use any of this stuff01:45
@rizeni personally hate soap01:45
perlDreamergiven the state of the docs, I would guess that no one else does, either01:46
perlDreamerall of the pagination variables were wrong01:46
@rizendonorware uses it extensively01:46
@rizenbut they wrote it01:46
@rizenand they use it for their own web services01:46
perlDreamerI'll email Mike.01:47
@preaction-mdoes anyone know how to disable the default apache on OSX server, i can't find anything in the docs. is it as simple as putting something in rc.local?01:52
@rizenyes its even easier than that01:53
@rizenApple icon (upper right corner) > System Preferences01:53
@rizenUncheck "Personal Web Sharing"01:54
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@rizenok guys...gotta go for a while01:54
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perlDreamerlater, rizen01:55
perlDreamerhowdy, Radix01:55
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@preaction-mrizen: you around?05:50
@preaction-mi just failed an upgrade from 6.8.10 - 6.99.0 because OSX has an incompatible libiconv for the WRE 0.7.205:52
@preaction-mdid i miss something easy?05:53
@preaction-mor.. was i just supposed to keep using the 0.6.0 WRE until later?05:54
@rizeni haven't ever seen that error before05:54
@rizenbut you're on intel mac05:54
@rizenwe don't have a wre for that05:54
@preaction-mnot me05:54
@preaction-mAPR wants libiconv with 6.0.0, and the one that's with 10.4 only provides 5.0.0 (whatever those version numbers mean)05:55
@preaction-mrather, that's with the version of 10.4 (ppc) that this person has05:55
@preaction-mi rolled back, everythings AOK, they're at 6.8.10 currently05:55
@rizenit worked on my mac05:55
@rizenso it must be that one of the more recent patches05:55
@rizenhas changed this for mac05:55
@preaction-mi imagined it did05:55
@rizeni guess you're going to need to compile a new wre for PPC05:56
@preaction-mperhaps try 0.7.0 tomorrow? of course i was only assuming that 0.6.0 wouldn't work05:56
@rizeni don't know how else you'd get around it05:56
@rizenyeah, you can't use 0.6.005:56
@preaction-mgood lord in heaven, and we're going to have to charge him for this?05:56
@rizenand i don't recommend going backwards05:56
@rizendo you have any better ideas?05:57
@preaction-mdon't recommend either, but it luckily worked05:57
@preaction-mi can only hope that compiling against the libiconv that they have will fix it05:57
@rizenwait...it worked to go back to 0.7.0?05:57
@preaction-mto 0.6.005:57
@preaction-mit Seems to have worked, at least05:57
@rizenyou mean that the upgrade worked05:58
@rizennot running webgui05:58
@rizen0.6.0 wre isn't capable of running webgui 705:58
@preaction-mi only made it to 6.8.1005:58
@rizenat least not without installing a whole mess of perl modules05:58
@rizenand perhaps other stuff05:58
@preaction-mi was working on going to 6.99.* when i failed05:58
@preaction-mand between there i installed WRE 0.7.205:58
@rizeni don't know what to tell you05:59
@rizeni think you're going to have to compile a wre for them05:59
@rizenthey need to get to 7.x of webgui05:59
@preaction-mc'est la vie, i'll e-mail john to tell him the situation, i'll CC vrby and tell them that TMRFE says that a custom compile might be the only way05:59
@rizenand if you're saying the one we provide doesn't work05:59
@rizeni don't know what else to do05:59
@preaction-mThe Man Responsible For Everything06:00
@preaction-mat any rate, wingers awaits, friends already piss drunk apparently so that oughta be interesting (i just want food)06:01
@rizenhave fun06:01
@preaction-mi'll try, failure usually puts me in a foul mood :(06:01
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MPedersenJWhat the??? How am I still connected? I've close all copies I'm aware of.06:08
@rizenperhaps you're being spoofed06:08
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MPedersenJDidn't even realize I'd done it, obviously.06:09
MPedersenJAnyway, since the real me has now stood up, hi again :)06:09
@rizenyou know something else that might have happened, that sometimes happens to me06:10
@rizenif i'm carrying my laptop around my house06:10
@rizensometimes i'll lose wifi signal06:10
@rizenand then the irc client will connect me twice06:10
@rizenwhen the signal comes back06:10
MPedersenJNope, this one is entirely my dumbass. Anybody know how long I'd left myself idle? I'd opened a screen session, logged in to irc, and then put screen into the background. Since it's on my server, it could have gone on in usage forever.06:12
MPedersenJAnyway, how's things going?06:18
@rizenpretty damn spectacular i'd say06:18
@rizenhalf my staff (including me) are in the process of writing three big new books for webgui06:19
@rizenit's pretty cool06:19
@rizenwe've never taken on a documentation effort of this scope before06:19
@rizenand everyone is coming up with some really cool cookbook ideas for doing new things in webgui06:20
@rizenwhat's new on your end?06:20
MPedersenJSweet! That sounds like it'd be awesome for me (I need lots of work on my webgui skills).06:20
@rizeni'll give you a quick example06:22
MPedersenJFor me, I've got an idea for webgui which is definitely *not* the norm: A module which handles web based editing of a squid config file. Still not sure if I should do it. Also going to be doing an online novel, and using webgui as the host platform for the entire website. Since it's also meant to be an RPG (tabletop, not computerized), and I want to post lots of other data about the world the novel is set in, a whole site is definitely justified.06:22
@rizenone recipe that i put into the new admin guide is a way to make your webgui log email you06:22
@rizenwhen there is a fatal error06:22
@rizenthat way you don't have to go through your logs every day...just wait for the system to tell you there's a problem06:23
@rizenit's simple, but very useful06:23
MPedersenJYeah, that would be *very* cool.06:23
MPedersenJWith the way I have things set up, I might try and update it to send me an IM over Jabber, instead, but that's just because I'm weird, and use IM more than email :)06:23
@rizenactually, i'm going to put a recipe in there for that too if i can figure it out06:24
@rizencuz i would probably also prefer to be IM'd06:24
Radix-wrkthat using the log4perl stuff to email it?06:24
@rizenit's really not hard to do it06:24
@preaction-mrizen: could you run `otool -L /data/wre/prereqs/apache/bin/httpd` and tell me what it says for /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib?06:25
MPedersenJrizen, do you have O'Reilly Safari access?06:25
Radix-wrksomeone (perhaps even you JT) mentioned that at the WUC, I had it noted down as something to look into in my spare time actually :)06:25
@rizenand if people would dig through the docs for log4perl it would be easy06:25
@rizenbut the docs are pretty dense06:25
@rizenso i think people just like things laid out for them06:25
Radix-wrkSo what are the three books for?  Content Designers, Administrators and Developers or something like that?06:26
@rizenpreaction: /data/wre/prereqs/apache/bin/httpd:06:26
@rizen        /data/wre/prereqs/utils/lib/libz.1.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.2.3)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libssl.0.9.7.dylib (compatibility version 0.9.7, current version 0.9.7)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib (compatibility version 0.9.7, current version 0.9.7)06:26
@rizen        /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libaprutil-0.0.dylib (compatibility version 10.0.0, current version 10.12.0)06:26
@rizen        /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libexpat.0.dylib (compatibility version 2.0.0, current version 2.0.0)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib (compatibility version 5.0.0, current version 5.0.0)06:26
@rizen        /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libapr-0.0.dylib (compatibility version 10.0.0, current version 10.12.0)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libresolv.9.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 369.2.0)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 88.1.7)06:26
@rizen        /usr/lib/libmx.A.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 92.0.0)06:26
@rizeni did have safari access, but never used it so i closed it off last month06:26
@rizenradix: yeah, i mentioned that example at the wuc last year06:27
@rizenand actually at the 2007 wuc i'll be giving a whole talk on logging tips and tricks06:27
@preaction-mrizen: so you have the same version i have, and they have. are you using WRE 0.7.2?06:27
@rizenyeah, the three books are content managers, admins, and designers06:27
Radix-wrkDoubt I'll be able to go to the WUC this year (costs a bit much to send me over really) - but definitely interested in the books :)06:28
MPedersenJThat URL should help, I think, figuring out the email<->IM gateway.06:28
@preaction-mbut anyway, no more work today06:28
* preaction-m & eats06:28
Radix-wrkenjoy :)06:28
@rizenradix: totally understand06:29
@rizenmpedersenj: actually i know of a company who controlls their entire provisioning system through jabber06:30
@rizenjust the way this article is talking about06:30
@rizenthey can also gather stats and statuses on all their systems and clients06:30
@rizenradix: we're also going to start doing webinars at some point06:31
@rizenso you'll be able to get wuc-type presentations live, online06:31
MPedersenJI'd do the same if I could. My boss, though... Curious mix. Cisco networking guy (one test away from CCIE), and can't get along with the command line.06:31
@rizencisco guys usually like cli06:31
MPedersenJOh, and insecure, to boot. Very weird. So, even though I might have very cool ideas on things we can do, we won't use them, because I make a lot of command line stuff.06:32
Radix-wrkrizen: that'd be cool06:35
@rizenemail info@plainblack.com if you'd like to be notified when the webinars will start06:36
@rizeni think that they're scheduled to start sometime in february, but i don't know for sure06:36
@rizenbtw...how many people at your company do webgui?06:36
@rizencuz the webinar subscription allows everyone in your company to attend06:36
MPedersenJWell, if it were *my* company, it'd be just me. I'll be the one introducing it there :)06:37
@rizenheh...but if you're successful06:38
@rizenthen others would join you i assume06:38
Radix-wrkHmm.. I'm really the only one who does anything serious - the others use Webgui, but don't really work with it in-depth.06:38
Radix-wrkthey do more content management stuff06:38
@rizenwe have some clients who have 50-100 people that will be attending the webinars06:38
@rizensome of the webinars will be technical06:38
@rizensome will be more for publishers06:38
@rizenit will be different every time06:39
MPedersenJI'd love to have more join in. I don't know, though. Sometimes, I feel rather like I'm just in the way. Other times, I feel like I'm the one leading the way. It's a job, eh?06:39
MPedersenJEnough whining from me :)06:39
@rizennot all will be interesting to everyone06:39
@rizenwhen you're doing your job right06:39
Radix-wrkSounds interesting - and needs an additional subscription to be able to watch?06:39
@rizenyou should feel like that06:39
@rizenyes there will be a seperate subscription for it06:40
@rizeni don't know what that will be though06:40
@rizenbecause these will be live presentations06:40
@rizenand we need to produce content for each one06:40
@rizenthere will be a cost to it06:40
@rizento cover our cost06:40
Radix-wrkI doubt my boss would go for it unless we need to do a whole lot of new stuff with Webgui really - and we're pretty happy with our site at the moment - doing very little on it atm.06:42
Radix-wrkJust maintenance and slowly adding more content for our own customers (flash videos/tutorials/etc..)06:43
MPedersenJHey, this might be a good place to ask: what are ballpark rates for a new style for webgui? ie: If I ask plainblack to make a new theme/style, what are common rates for that?06:43
@rizenthat's understandable man06:43
@rizendepends upon what you want06:43
@rizenbut i know we've done some for less than $1k06:43
@rizenand i know that we've done some for more than $10k06:43
@rizenwhat it really comes down to is how many options you want06:44
MPedersenJMostly, it's a case of a few graphics, removal of some stuff, I think.06:44
@rizenfor example, the one we did for more than $10k we came up with more than 30 mockups06:44
MPedersenJAlthough, even at $1K, that rules out going to you guys for my novel website.06:44
@rizenif this is just an adjustment of something existing06:45
@rizenit will be less than $50006:45
@rizenif this is for your free online community06:45
MPedersenJWhat tools do you use for mockups? I get the feeling that pen/paper is the best choice, but somehow it feels weird to do a mockup on paper for a web page.06:45
@rizenyou should check out one of the open source template sites06:45
@rizenwe do all our mockups in photoshop and illustrator06:46
MPedersenJTools that don't fit me well at all (since what I know about them is how to spell them).06:46
MPedersenJAh well... Under $500? That I might be able to manage for the novel site.06:46
Radix-wrkI think that everything should start with pencil and paper first :) - you need a plan before you put anything on the computer06:46
MPedersenJI'm hoping to put webgui into our corporate intranet at work.06:47
MPedersenJCorrection: I'm hoping to make our corporate intranet out of webgui, since we don't have one at all right now.06:47
Radix-wrkWe're using webgui for our intranet also - tis great06:47
MPedersenJSpeaking of which: I've been wondering about the wiki module. I've seen mention of it, but haven't seen the module itself. Any idea of when that beast might be release?06:48
@rizenit is released06:48
Radix-wrkit's in the latest 7.3.x builds06:48
@rizenit's in 7.306:48
Radix-wrkyou can see it on the demo site06:48
Radix-wrkor the community wiki itself06:48
MPedersenJAha! I hadn't gotten there yet, was still on 7.2 :)06:48
@rizen7.3 isn't stable yet06:49
@rizenstay on 7.206:49
@rizenwith any luck we'll go stable next week06:49
Radix-wrkthat opensource templates site is pretty neat.. never seen that before06:49
MPedersenJSweet! That will be the moment I'm waiting for :)06:49
MPedersenJNow, any chance of an automated moinmoin->webgui-wiki converter?06:49
@rizenunless you want to pay to have it developed =)06:50
MPedersenJThen I might have to write one, since that's our current wiki, and I'd want to merge that in.06:50
@rizenthe wiki in it's current form isn't very powerful06:50
@rizeni ran out of time06:50
@rizenso i didn't get to add uploads into it06:51
@rizenand we also don't yet have a "diffs" utility06:51
@rizenbut those things will both come in time06:51
MPedersenJFor what we use it for? That's still plenty.06:51
MPedersenJThank you for that open source templates site. That's exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for!06:53
@rizenincidentally, i'm pretty sure that we charge $400 to turn one of those into a working webgui package06:53
@rizenthat you can just deploy on your site06:54
MPedersenJHow bad is it to choose a page which uses a darker background with a lighter font (as opposed to most of those templates, which go light background/dark foreground)? I mean, from a usability perspective.06:57
@rizendepends upon your audience06:58
@rizenif you're dealing with older people with eyesite problems06:58
@rizenit's easier to read black on white06:58
Radix-wrkit's also easier to print06:58
@rizenbut if your audience is younger06:58
@rizenthen it doesn't really matter06:59
Radix-wrkthough the makeprintable template helps there06:59
@rizenradix: with webgui that's not true06:59
MPedersenJDang... Dunno the eventual age range. Probably younger. The online novel is a horror novel. I'm trying to find ways to darken the actual theme of the site. Might just have to go with better graphics at the header to convey the idea.07:00
Radix-wrkuse a dark site design then :)07:02
@rizeni agree...go dark07:02
Radix-wrkdon't use bright white text, try a lighter grey or soemthing.. that helps with the contrast issues07:03
Radix-wrkand easier on the eyes07:03
@rizenuse a dark blood red background07:03
@rizenwith dark black text on it07:03
Radix-wrkimpossible to read then :)07:03
@rizenthat's the point07:03
MPedersenJNah, though that *could* look good, it's not the motif I'm going for.07:03
MPedersenJIt's a horror novel, set in a fantasy world, but a world in which the sun went dark about 500 years ago.07:04
Radix-wrkreminds me of the old lucasarts games - they used to come with a codewheel that was maroon with black writing.  Almost impossible to photocopy then ;)07:04
Radix-wrkSounds like a cool novel MPedersenJ!07:05
MPedersenJI've actually got a fair amount about it decided. I need to build up the website, and write my first chapter, before I'll consider advertising it, though.07:06
@rizenooh, then this is what you need for a site design07:06
MPedersenJI've also got a character who's rather a trip: Every night, since he was around 3, he's had a rather horrific nightmare. He's in a sword fight with a woman covered in black from head to toe. She always wins. Every night, he dies in his dreams.07:07
Radix-wrkSounds kinky.07:07
MPedersenJHeh. Actually, that cloud effect is pretty decent. I think I might go for a similar effect.07:08
MPedersenJAs for kinky: Depends on whether or not you think you'd enjoy dying from various knifewounds would be kinky :)07:10
MPedersenJHeh, perfect timing :)07:12
MPedersenJThat one might be the closest I have seen yet to what I had in mind.07:13
Radix-wrkcool.. goferit then ;)07:14
Radix-wrkhttp://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=190 - this one is easier to read07:14
MPedersenJYeah. Different format than I was looking for, though, but that should be quite bearable.07:16
MPedersenJDang, need to save all these links, they're all good. Also found a bright one I could use for work at http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/templates/view.cfm?MultiFlex2107:16
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MPedersenJI found it! Perfection! http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=22107:18
+perlDreamerthat is a nice one07:20
+perlDreameryou going to make it work for WebGUI?07:20
MPedersenJEspecially for an online novel and web community around it, that should be fantastic.07:20
Radix-wrkLooks good to me.07:21
MPedersenJYeah, that I am. I'm tempted to take rizen up on an offer to make it work, after all, it's not expensive, but I did buy WebGUI Done Right already. I should use it :)07:21
Radix-wrkthat'd be pretty easy to get working really - it's pretty straight forward07:22
@rizenif you get it working07:22
@rizenyou should make a package out of it07:23
@rizenand put it up in the contribs section07:23
@rizenthat way others can benefit from your work07:23
MPedersenJI'll do that for both of the themes I've found.07:23
MPedersenJI might do a third, since I do have three sites I'd like to power using WebGUI.07:23
Radix-wrkStart with one :)07:24
Radix-wrkGet one working.. then you'll find the others easy :)07:24
@rizenincidentally MPedersionJ: I'd prefer that you did it rather than having us do it.07:24
@rizenit's always better to have more skilled people in the community07:24
MPedersenJOh yeah. I'm only mildly crazy :)07:24
+perlDreamerJust hang out here and/or the forums07:25
MPedersenJAnd, believe it or not, it's not about the money. I bought the online WDR for one reason: It met my personal needs. And it was me, not my company, that bought it. It's about being able to do it myself. I really do enjoy that.07:25
+perlDreamerWhich company do you work for?07:26
MPedersenJActually, a retail store: www.6ave.com is their online presence (god, I can't wait until we get that site replaced, supposedly end of this month).07:27
@rizeni was hoping that i could get rid of WebGUI::Utility07:30
@rizenevery module i find is either more complicated than the utilities in there07:30
@rizenor the utilities just don't exist07:31
MPedersenJSo, the 3 I think I'm going to convert (just so you guys can see the designs): First, my horror novel site: http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=22107:32
MPedersenJSecond: My employer company intranet site: http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=6507:33
MPedersenJThird: My own business that I'm working on starting: http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/templates/view.cfm?andreas0207:33
MPedersenJThanks again for pointing me to those two sites. They really help. I can code regular apps, but my website design skills suck the sweat off a dead man's balls.07:35
Radix-wrkActually.. that'd make an excellent tip to add to the wiki07:36
MPedersenJI'm on it! :D07:37
MPedersenJThere, added in.07:45
+perlDreameranyone up for some bug triage?07:48
+perlDreamerImagine that you create a Folder Asset and set it to be viewable only by Content Managers07:49
+perlDreamerThen you add several files to the Folder, and set each file to be viewable by Everyone.07:49
+perlDreamerBut the .wgaccess file added to the storage area overrides the File permissions.07:50
@rizenwhy would that be07:51
@rizenthe .wgaccess file is set by each file individually, not by the folder07:51
@rizeni don't see the problem07:52
@rizenhere's the thing07:53
@rizenthe visitor should not be able to access the folder view07:53
@rizenbut they should be able to access each file if they know the url of the file07:53
@rizencuz that's what you've set for permissions07:53
@rizenif it works as i have stated above07:53
@rizenand i think it does07:53
@rizenthen this is not a bug07:53
+perlDreamerif you go in and manually change the file permissions after the upload, then Visitor _can_ see the file.07:56
+perlDreamerso it looks like the permissions requested by the user during FilePile upload aren't being followed.  But maybe that's by design, too?07:58
@rizenno that would be a bug07:58
@rizenit should use whatever privs are set during upload07:58
@rizenwho saw the new iphone today?08:01
+perlDreamerI did08:01
@rizenis it just me or is that the coolest thing EVER08:01
+perlDreamerIt's a tricorder/PADD08:02
@rizenit is a tricorder08:02
@rizenand more08:02
+perlDreamertrue, tricorders couldn't make phone calls08:02
@rizenit's a tricorder + communicator08:03
@rizennow if they could just add a phaser08:03
@rizenwe'd be all good08:03
+perlDreamerI've always wanted Spy Hunter gear for my car.08:03
+perlDreamerIt would solve all my traffic problems08:03
+perlDreamerRay, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "Yes"!08:05
@rizen"That's your entire plan Ray? 'Get em!'"08:06
+perlDreamerBut Mr. Stay Puffed is good....08:07
+perlDreameractually, most of the security tab is ignored08:09
+perlDreamerI think we should nuke the Security tab on the FilePile and document that it inherits everything from the parent.08:09
@rizenabsolutely NOT08:10
+perlDreamerthe security tab should be prepopulated with info from the parent so that the security tab is obeyed?08:11
+perlDreamerSensei, why?08:12
@rizenwhy what?08:12
+perlDreamerwhy not nuke the Security tab?08:12
@rizentell me yours and i'll tell you mine08:12
+perlDreamerwell, current behavior is to inherit from the parent no matter what.  The security tab on the FilePile misleads the user into thinking that their new choices will work.08:13
+perlDreamerso it should be nuked.08:13
+perlDreamerusers can still go in and alter file permissions one by one08:13
+perlDreamerand if they truly want mixed permissions, do it in different folders08:13
@rizenyou officially have the worst idea of 2007 so far08:13
+perlDreamerTeach me, sensei.08:14
@rizenthat's like saying, all assets should not have a security tab when you first create the asset08:14
@rizenbecause we should inherit from the parent08:14
@rizenand if you wan tto change it you should go back in after the fact08:14
@rizenhere's the reason that you shouldn't nuke the tab08:14
+perlDreameroh, fine.  Invoke the uniformity argument.08:15
@rizennot only that though08:15
@rizenbut your argument is, the electric windows and locks don't work in the car, so let's take them out08:15
@rizenrather than fixing them so they work08:15
@rizendo you disagree?08:16
@rizeni believe that is indeed your arguement08:16
+perlDreamerThat's my argument, but the origin is slightly different.08:16
+perlDreamerThe car looks like it should never have had locks.08:17
+perlDreamerBecause it's a convertible08:17
+perlDreamerwith a cloth top08:17
+perlDreamerin Oregon08:17
@rizenyeah, except all convertables have locks anyway08:17
* perlDreamer bows08:18
+perlDreamerSensei, indeed you are wiser.08:18
@rizenroy is going to be pissed at you08:18
+perlDreamernot if I get it done in the next 8 hours08:18
MPedersenJSorry guys, time for me to hit the sack (almost 1:30am out here). Will definitely be back. With some luck, we'll start seeing the first of those conversions by the end of the week.08:18
@rizenhe was hoping to have the worst idea of 200708:19
@rizencuz he got the worst idea of 2006 award08:19
+perlDreamerIt's early08:19
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+perlDreamermaybe you could run that as the next contest08:20
+perlDreamerwell, if he's not going to be pissed if this bug isn't fixed by the next release I'm going to head to bed.08:22
@rizeni'm going to be pissed if you go to bed08:22
@rizennot because you haven't fixed the bug08:22
@rizenjust because i like to be pissed08:22
@rizengood night sir08:23
+perlDreamerWell, in that case, I can make both you and Kathy happy by going to bed!08:23
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@snap_awaypreaction-m: WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!17:20
* snap_away throws a bucket of ice water on preaction-m17:20
@snap_awaytop of tha mornin' to ya khenn17:20
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@khennI guess you could call it that =)17:50
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@snapcountMrHairgrease go vote18:06
@snapcountor I will be forced to beg you18:06
+MrHairgreasebeg me18:07
@snapcountI hate you18:07
@snapcountguess I'm not good at begging18:07
+MrHairgreasei dunno what yankees define as begging18:07
+MrHairgreasei'll vote18:07
+MrHairgreaseon what?18:07
@snapcountthe PBWG18:08
@snapcountaren't you subscribed to the shiney mailing lists I made?18:08
+MrHairgreaseprolly not18:08
@snapcountoh well that would explain it18:08
+MrHairgreasehaven't had any emails18:08
+MrHairgreasei'm subscribed18:09
@snapcountare you subscribed to the members one?18:09
@snapcountor just nominations18:10
+MrHairgreasewebgui should have a 'mail me all messages' function18:10
@snapcountI'm getting them18:10
+MrHairgreaseyou don't understand18:10
+MrHairgreasei just subscribed myself18:10
+MrHairgrease10 secs ago18:10
@snapcountjust now18:10
* snapcount sees a light bulb flickering above his brain18:10
* MrHairgrease zooms in with google maps on the flickering pixel18:11
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@snapcountty for subscribing... I need you to help make sure the people that get into PBWG are of the same caliber as you18:11
@snapcountthey have to rule18:12
+MrHairgreasei'm reading trhe posts i missed right now18:13
+MrHairgreasesnapcount: happy? =)18:17
@snapcountthat you're reading?18:17
+MrHairgreasei even posted18:17
@snapcountyes, I'm happy now18:17
+MrHairgreaseit's a nice feeling to do good =)18:18
+MrHairgreaseah 7.3.4 is ready?18:26
+MrHairgreasepb went into maintenace mode18:26
@preaction-mi'm helping! i'm helping!18:28
@rizenpreaction-m, what's yoru sourceforge.net username?18:47
@rizenalso, what's your freshmeat.net username18:47
@preaction-mi don't have a freshmeat yet, but sf is "preaction"18:47
@rizenget fm18:48
@preaction-mfm is also "preaction"18:48
@rizenyou now have release rights on sf.net18:49
@rizenand on fm18:50
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@rizenI almost had to give MrHairgrease the order to whack maxscience19:04
@rizengood thing he left as quickly as he came19:04
@snapcountsigh*  I never did understand that guy19:05
+MrHairgreaseyour orders for me should go through joeri19:05
+MrHairgreasei'm sure he comes up with a fair rice =)19:05
@snapcountsweet... you have red tape too19:05
+MrHairgreasered tape?19:05
@rizenfor coding i'll contact joeri19:05
+MrHairgreasewhat's that19:06
@rizenfor hits, i'm going directly to you19:06
+MrHairgreasebring it on19:06
@snapcountit's an expression in america for bueracracy19:06
+MrHairgreasebring ot on19:06
@snapcountjumping through the hoops19:06
+MrHairgreasei understand19:06
@rizensnapcount, it's actually a british expression19:07
@rizenwe just stole it19:07
@snapcountgo America!19:07
@rizensnapcount, what is flaglerbar.com?19:08
@rizenand why am i getting spammed by it19:09
@snapcountyou're getting spammed by them19:09
+MrHairgreasedo you really wanna know?19:09
@snapcountit's a site Keri runs19:09
+MrHairgreasecalc pomade =)19:09
@snapcountand I think we should bill them soon actually19:09
@snapcountit's one of the ones from when I was hired19:09
@snapcountwe so need calc back19:12
+MrHairgreasewe do19:13
+MrHairgreasei need something to talk to when you guys are asleep =)19:13
@rizeni thought that's what your gf was for19:14
+MrHairgreaseexcuse me?19:14
+MrHairgreaseare you insane?19:14
+MrHairgreaseyou said _talk_ =)19:14
@snapcountyes talking to girls is like playing russian roulette19:15
@snapcountit might be a normal 2 min conversation or the death blow of hours and hours of crap19:15
@snapcountI choose not to play as much as possible19:16
@rizenonly if you have the wrong girls19:16
@rizensarah never traps me into that bs19:16
+MrHairgreasemarijn also never does that to me19:16
@snapcountsarah doesn't count as she has evolved all of the sucky female genes19:16
+MrHairgreaseif she does i'll just bully her =)19:16
@snapcountshe's an advanced lifeform19:17
* MrHairgrease is cooking19:24
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@preaction-mrizen: how do we credit Chris Palamara for bugfixes? Canali, Inc? or US DoS?19:31
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* PedersenMJ wavies. Hey there.19:37
@rizenwhat do you mean credit them?19:38
@rizenyou mean that they fixed something?19:38
@rizenor provided a patch?19:39
@preaction-mdiagnosed and found where the bug was (the exact line)19:39
@snapcountHi PedersenMJ19:40
@rizeni assume then you're talking about credit in the change log19:41
@snapcounthe is19:41
@rizengenerally we only give credit when someone actually fixes a problem19:42
@rizennot just diagnoses it19:42
@rizenbut if you want to give them credit, you're more than welcome do19:42
@rizenand when i give credit, i typically ask the person how they want to be credited19:42
@rizenit's usually (thanks to Name, Company)19:42
@preaction-mk, i'll ask chris what he wants19:48
PedersenMJI just enjoyed hanging out here last night, so came back today.19:48
PedersenMJOh, found another free template site, and added that to the wiki.19:48
@rizeni'm glad to hear you're sticking around19:50
@rizenoh yeah, and it would be great if we could compile a giant list of those sites19:50
@rizeni think they'd really help people out19:50
PedersenMJWell, so far, I've got three.19:50
@rizenthat's a great start19:51
@rizenhopefully others will add to that list19:51
PedersenMJHopefully. Even if not, I'll make that my project to find and add more periodically.19:51
@rizenthen the next step is to a get a bunch of people working to convert those templates into webgui packages19:52
@rizenso people can just start deploying them left and right19:52
PedersenMJOne suggestion for the wiki module? Coming in from the community-wiki site, I don't see a way to modify the front page. That might be there (probably is) when you're an admin. But, if it isn't, then it would be really helpful to have that ability.19:52
@rizeni actually made the administrative decision that users cannot edit the front page19:53
@rizenonly admins19:53
@rizenthe front page is not actually a wiki page19:54
PedersenMJOkay, that sounds good. I was just wanting to make sure. I *do* intend to use it once 7.3 comes out, and want to have a different look/feel for that page.19:54
@rizenyou can template it19:54
@rizeni mean it is templated19:55
@rizenso you as the admin can do whatever you want with it19:55
@rizenbut there needs to be one page in the system that the users cannot change19:55
@rizenthat way it can't be defaced19:55
@rizenjust in case19:55
@rizenwhat we probably should do though19:55
PedersenMJYep, I do agree with that.19:55
@rizenis create some structural pages under the front page19:56
@rizenand link to them from the front page19:56
@rizenso that people can see "categories" of content19:56
PedersenMJThat would be excellent!19:56
@rizenat some point i'd also like to add tagging to the wiki19:57
@rizenand put a tag cloud on the front page19:57
@rizenanyway, back to support fo rme19:58
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@rizenafkdoug, roy: did either of you upgrade gama yet?20:05
@khennThe more I get into YUI the cooler it becomes20:16
@khennthe more I get into YUI, the more I hate both IE and Firefox20:16
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@khenneach for different reasons20:17
@rizenthat's awesome20:18
@rizeni'm going to use it in the talk i'm giving at perl mongers tonight20:18
@khennoh shit20:20
@khennThat's tonight20:20
+perlDreamerdon't worry, you can still see the comic online20:20
@khennI'm not going to make it tonight JT.  My wife has to register Matthew for school next year... Unless you want to come pick me up =)20:21
@rizenyou're always telling me that you come to every meeting20:22
@rizenyou can't tell me that anymore20:22
@rizendoug, are you coming tonight/20:22
@khennyeah, I'm going to miss my first one20:23
@khennwell my first tech meeting20:23
@khennwho is speaking in Feb?20:23
@rizeni think feb is going to be cancelled20:24
@rizencuz i can't get a hold of steve peters20:24
@rizenwho was supposed to be talking20:24
@rizenalso, it's on v-day20:24
@rizenso the turnout won't be good20:24
@preaction-mi don't know, i've just now finished all the release stuff and i still have to fix the bugs in my DoS code and make a new Wobject start-to-finish by end of day20:28
@rizeni'll take that as no20:29
@rizendo you want my code generator, even in the state that it's in?20:29
@rizenwould that help you with your new asset20:29
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cap10morganWhat is the best way to get the name of the database (link id 0) you're working with via the API?20:56
@rizenwhat do you mean the "name" of the database20:57
@rizenthe actual name?20:57
cap10morganlike select from (db_name).(table_name) ...20:57
cap10morganthe "db_name"20:57
cap10morgani guess i should say schema name in these heady mysql 5 days :)20:58
@rizenwell there's no "good" way20:59
@rizenso i'll just tell you a way that will work20:59
cap10morgan:) sounds good20:59
@rizenmy $params = $dblink->get();20:59
@rizenmy $dsn = $params->{DSN}20:59
@rizen$dsn =~ m/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/;21:00
@rizenmy $dbname = $1;21:00
cap10morganok, thanks21:00
@rizenthat regex needs to be case insensitive21:01
@rizen$dsn =~ m/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/i;21:01
@rizenlike that21:01
+perlDreamerobjects need accessors21:01
+MrAFKGreasethat doesn't work21:02
@rizenhis question wasn't, what are the flaws in the DatabaseLink object's design21:02
@rizenhis question was how do i get the dbname21:02
+MrAFKGreasedsn can be21:02
PedersenMJcap10morgan: here's another way that's *almost* identical:21:02
PedersenMJmy $dsn = $dblink->get();21:02
+MrAFKGreaseand a host of other configurations21:03
PedersenMJ$dsn =~ s/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/$1/i;21:03
+MrAFKGreasecheck the sqlform code in 73421:03
PedersenMJErm, change "$dsn" to "$dbname"21:03
+MrAFKGreasecheck the _databaseLinkHasPrivileges21:04
+MrAFKGreasethat get's the dbName from a dsn21:05
+MrAFKGreasethat's the relevant code21:06
cap10morganMrAFKGrease: that code looks good, thanks21:07
+MrAFKGreaseno problem21:07
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@rizenthat code won't work either21:11
@rizenif there is a hostname in the config21:11
+MrHairgreaseit does work21:11
+MrHairgreasetested that21:11
@rizeni don't see how that's possible21:12
@rizensee the pattern above21:12
@rizenwhat regex hits that pattern21:12
@rizeni don't see one21:12
+MrHairgreasefirst it splits on [:;]21:12
+MrHairgreasethen it checks if the third entry has an '=' character21:13
+MrHairgreaseif it hasn't 21:13
+MrHairgreaseit must be the dbname21:13
@rizensorry, i didn't see the split21:13
+MrHairgreaseyou get it now =)21:13
+MrHairgreaseI based it on the ODBCdsn parde in DBD::mysql21:13
+MrHairgreasejust to get all the undocumented ids for the dbName21:14
cap10morganseems like a good addition to WebGUI::Utility.pm21:14
+MrHairgreasenot utility21:15
+MrHairgreasemaybe wg::ql21:15
+MrHairgreaseand WG:databaseLink21:15
+perlDreamerThat second one sounds good to me21:15
+MrHairgreasei can also see it hav its use in in wg::sql21:16
+MrHairgreasethe method in dblink could then just use that21:16
@rizenit seems like there should be a module to do this already out on cpan21:20
+MrHairgreasewhich one?21:21
+MrHairgreasei looked through dbi21:21
+MrHairgreasebut couldn't find it21:21
cap10morganMrHairgrease: should that regexp be set case insensitive? in case someone does dbi:mysql:DB=(db_name) or something like that?21:22
@rizeni looked through some too and can't find one21:22
@rizenit just seems like it should be out there21:22
+MrHairgreaseif DBI is allowed lowercase21:22
+MrHairgreaseit should be case incensitive21:22
+MrHairgreasei seems to me that dbi (or the dbd's) should include such a function21:23
+MrHairgreaseyeah I think case insensitve would be better21:24
@rizeni think that porn flavoring would be better21:25
+MrHairgreaseporn flavoring?21:25
@rizeneverything is better with porn flavoring21:26
+MrHairgreasecap10morgan: DBD:mysql is case sensitive21:26
+MrHairgreaseso a dsn with DB= probably won't work21:26
+MrHairgreasedoesn't hurt to do it case insensitive21:27
cap10morganMrHairgrease: ok21:28
@snapcountwoo hoo22:35
@snapcountget to work on some bugs finally22:35
@snapcountsheesh... today has felt very... gosh I don't know22:35
@snapcountrizen... can you talk some wiki?22:47
@rizennot right now22:49
@snapcountok... I'll just go with it and we can discuss if any changes need to be made before the next release22:49
+perlDreameras far as bug fixing goes, I'm working on one of the .wgaccess bugs and the WSClient pagination variables.23:17
@rizenok roy23:18
@rizendo you still have questions23:18
@snapcountabout deleting pages23:19
@snapcountwhat should happen if it has been purged?23:20
@snapcountshould the restore link just say "sorry it was purged"23:20
@snapcountwhen they click23:20
@rizenno, there won't be any data left there for you to even generate the restore link23:20
@rizensince those links are based on data coming out of the asset table23:20
@rizentherefore there should be nothing displayed at all23:20
@snapcountok so recent changes gets data on the fly23:21
@snapcountI see23:21
@rizenhave you not looked at it?23:21
@snapcountnot at recent changes yet... I just looked at how the delete was done23:21
@snapcountI think it's cool how you were able to do this using the asset/versioning system23:22
@snapcountI don't think I would have thought to do it this way23:22
@rizenwhy not...that's what it's there for23:22
@rizenwhy reinvent the wheel when you've already got everything you need23:23
@snapcountI don't know... it makes perfect sense seeing it in front of me23:23
@snapcountjust never saw it being used like this23:23
@snapcountI don't know why though23:23
+perlDreamerit's almost exactly like the CS23:23
@snapcountthat's the thing... I have never really studied the CS23:23
@rizenwhen drake did it he was trying to rebuild the versioning system too23:24
@snapcountso when I think user content, I think collateral23:24
@snapcountnot asset23:24
@rizenhis oriiginal wiki was 6 tables23:24
@rizenrather than the 2 tables i used23:24
@snapcountI really like how this works23:24
@snapcountvery clean23:24
+perlDreamerI'm glad you didn't try to shoehorn the Wiki into the CS23:24
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* crythias tries to send messages on wg-dev including everyone's message as attachment. Also the HTML version of the reply underneath. :)23:29
@snapcountdamn it23:30
@snapcountI just caught myself being dumb again23:31
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@snapcountme: "I need an actionTakenOn column"23:31
@snapcountoh wait23:31
@snapcountthat's what revisionDate is23:31
@snapcountoh God help me23:31
* snapcount kicks snapcount in the temple23:32
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@rizendo you need help or are you talking outloud?23:32
* crythias kicks snapcount in the mosque. 23:34
+crythiasum, roy... actionTaken doesn't always correspond to revisionDate.23:36
@rizenyou cannot use the assetHistory log23:36
@rizenand you don't need to either23:37
@snapcountok straighten me out then.  I was going to have the delete sub change the actionTaken to deleted and actionBy to the current user.  Because the asset is going to be put in the trash, that would reflect the time it was deleted.  If the asset is modified again (restored) then the revisionDate would change but at that point it doesn't matter23:41
@snapcountso if actionTaken is deleted, it would print in the recent history the message you wanted using actionTaken, actionTakenBy and revisionDate23:42
@rizenyou're doing too much work23:42
@rizenall the data you need is already there23:42
@rizenyou have the state field23:43
@snapcountoh ok23:43
@rizenwhich will tell you if the asset is in the trash or not23:43
@rizenif it is23:43
@rizenthen the links should have the "restore" link associated with them23:43
@rizenotherwise it shouldn't23:43
@rizenif state is trash or trash-limbo23:44
@rizenor better yet23:44
@rizenyouc an handle the clipboard state as well23:44
@rizenby simply doing23:44
@rizenif state ne "published"23:44
@snapcountok... and you still want the link to be "WikiPage Title Deleted by abc on mm/dd/yyyy (restore)" part to be in the recent history right...23:47
@rizenon the recent history page23:48
@rizenon the front page you shouldn't include all that detail23:48
@rizenon the recent history page we include that kind of detail23:48
+perlDreamerwill that require special casing the recentHistory display on the front page?23:49
+perlDreamerright now the same code is used in both places23:49
@rizenhow do i even answer that question23:50
@rizenit's almost as if you don't know how webgui works23:50
PedersenMJWell, I know that *I* don't know how it works :)23:50
@rizenevery template has a set of variables behind it23:51
@rizenif you want to do something the template doesn't allow for23:51
@rizenthen you add more variables23:51
@rizenin this case, we don't currently have a variable to say "ifDeleted" do something23:51
@rizenor isInTrash23:51
@rizenor whatever23:51
@rizenso yes, we need to add new template variables23:51
@rizenand yes we need to change the template on the front page23:52
@rizenas well as the template on the recent history page23:52
PedersenMJAh, at least conceptually speaking, that makes sense to me.23:52
+perlDreameryou do realize that's a philosophical decision, rather than a technical one?23:52
PedersenMJI still need to take the time to dig into the code and understand such.23:52
@rizenif isInTrash { title (<link>restore</link>) } else { <link>title</title>} 23:53
@rizenperlDreamer, how do you figure?23:53
+perlDreamerthe same result can be achieved either by special casing the code so that it returns things differently or by adding new template variables.23:54
+perlDreamerUnlike last night's discussion,23:54
+perlDreamerI don't think special casing the code is a good idea23:54
@rizenspecial casing the code limits the templating options23:55
@rizenand is therefore not the right thing to do23:55
@rizenexcept where there is a performance consideration23:55
@rizenwe expose template variables23:55
@rizenso that the user can decide23:55
@rizenwhat things should look like23:55
--- Day changed Thu Jan 11 2007
@snapcountI think that answers all the questions then00:02
@snapcountI'm glad I asked you guys first00:02
+perlDreamerWe got some press today00:02
@snapcountpdf == evil00:02
+perlDreamertalk to Opteros about it00:02
@snapcountwhich of the 262 pages did we get press on?00:04
@snapcountall of them I hope =P00:04
+perlDreamerpage 32 (of 47)00:04
@snapcountthat's 262 projects00:04
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@snapcountI don't understand their symbols and I'm too lazy to look for the key00:05
@snapcount3 stars for community seems encouraging00:05
@snapcountespecially at version 7.0.700:06
@snapcountWe're a "Easy to use and deploy content management system"00:06
+perlDreamerI was just happy to be listed.00:06
@snapcountthe shit is wrong though00:07
@snapcountit says our support is only community00:07
@snapcountthat makes me angry b/c the people who read this probably require professional support00:07
@snapcountand we have a sideways trend so I wonder if that means they think we're stable or stagnant00:08
+perlDreamerstagnant is down00:08
@snapcountwhat does up mean?00:08
@snapcountor diagonal up00:08
+perlDreamerHere's an Optaros contact (page 45)00:08
+perlDreamerBrian Otis botis@optaros.com00:08
+perlDreamergive him a screenful00:08
+perlDreamersideways = "Solution/component is not progressing and retains its viability"00:09
+perlDreamersee page 1000:09
@snapcountDear Brian, thank you for listing us but we respectfully request that you tell everyone we are far superior than anything else in your guide.  In fact, please list nothing but our product.  Yours truly, the MaN00:10
@snapcountpoor research00:10
@snapcountwe had just released 7 a complete rewrite essentially00:10
+perlDreamerDear Brian, You may have missed the fact that WebGUI is hosted by the company that makes it, Plain Black.00:10
@snapcountbut we're not progressing?00:10
@snapcountthis is crap00:10
+perlDreamer"quality and richness even decreases in comparison to the competition"00:11
+perlDreamerso not necessarily progressing, but not keeping up with the Joneses00:11
@rizenDear Brian, You got all of your facts about WebGUI wrong, but we're just happy to be listed, so thanks. With Love, PB00:12
@snapcountI like yours the best so far00:12
+perlDreamerThis was also before the website redesign, wasn't it? 7.0.7?00:16
@snapcountbefore the pb redesign?00:17
@snapcountI think so00:17
@snapcountcrap... must get my learn on00:17
@snapcountlater guys00:17
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-!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.4) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui00:39
@khenndoug, I got that mouseover thing to work finally01:08
+MrHairgreaselater guys01:16
+MrHairgreasetime to go to bed01:16
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+perlDreamerhas anyone tested the FilePile since 7.3.4 was released?01:23
@rizengotta go talk to some perl mongers. later peeps.01:28
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@khennIf anyone would like to test, I just fixed the calendar tip tools for IE so they don't show up behind the event03:20
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@khennI haven't tested in some of the other browsers (Safari, Opera, etc)03:21
@khenncould use some help there03:21
@preaction-mi'll test safari quick03:22
@preaction-mand works in opera 9.10 too03:26
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@khenngot booted03:40
@khennanything interesting going on?03:43
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PedersenMJHerm, dang. Was hoping JT was on. Anybody else know this question? If I make a template for a site (template/style/package), how upwards compatible will it be?05:00
PedersenMJIn other words, if I take a theme I found, and convert it to be used with WebGUI 7.2, how likely is it to work for 7.3?05:00
@preaction-mJT promised backwards compat unti Dec 200905:22
@preaction-mso until Dec 200905:22
PedersenMJNice. Thank you.05:23
PedersenMJThat means I don't have to worry, which is very good. I'd hate to learn this process (even though it looks pretty easy, actually), and then find the work was wasted :)05:24
@preaction-mi wonder if I should write something that can fix template incompatibilies from version to version05:24
@preaction-mit should be simple, especially for HTML::Template and HTML::Template::Expr templates05:25
@preaction-mTemplate Toolkit might be a bit more difficult05:25
@preaction-mi've been commissioned to write a better upgrade system, and my eventual goal is to abolish the "upgrade steps" and "backwards compatibility" crap05:26
@preaction-mof course, custom code... I can't go in and edit that, it'd be insane05:26
@preaction-munless... I use Perl's new syntax tree creator thingy! hmm...05:26
PedersenMJHeh. I think there are limits to my insanity. Don't think I'd wanna handle a perl parser :)05:27
PedersenMJOkay, this kinda sucks. Don't know what steps I missed. Working through this tutorial: http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style05:28
PedersenMJHave made it to "Preview Your Template"05:28
@preaction-mthe guy who did a Perl::Critic talk at madmongers explained it05:28
PedersenMJAnd now... I can't see the style as an available style in my dropdown list.05:29
@preaction-mdamnit, who wrote this documentation?05:30
PedersenMJuh-oh... That doesn't sound good at all...05:31
@preaction-mit's wrong05:31
@preaction-mthe last steps before you preview your template05:31
@preaction-myou should choose "namespace" as "style"05:32
@preaction-malso, submit a bug for the documentation if you would05:32
@preaction-msince you can't edit the template's namespace after you create it, you'll have to re-create your template05:32
PedersenMJUmmm... It just let me?05:33
@preaction-mdid it work?05:33
PedersenMJIt seems to have done so, yes.05:33
@preaction-mcan you see it under "style" on another asset?05:33
@preaction-mmaybe my RFE got implemented05:33
PedersenMJ7.2.0-beta is where it worked.05:37
PedersenMJBug report submitted, too.05:37
@preaction-mdid you just go "back" and then do it?05:37
@preaction-monce you've submitted and you can't go back, you have to go to the "Metadata" tab to see a template's namespace, and then you can't change it05:37
@preaction-mfeel free to continue submitting bug reports you find in the documentation as well05:38
PedersenMJNope, did not do "back". Had to re-navigate through the Root/Import Node/Burned, and then click "edit" on the template.05:39
@preaction-mthat is weird... you got a "namespace" field? i'm looking on plainblack.com and there isn't one05:39
PedersenMJYep, I had it, and was able to change it, and even use it.05:40
PedersenMJHey, for CSS, style sheets, is this another typo? background: #ff0000 url('carotFileUrl(images/red_bg.gif);');05:43
PedersenMJSince the ^ is usually spelled "carat"05:43
PedersenMJI thought.05:43
@preaction-mthere has to be a way to escape the caret.05:44
@preaction-mbut we've got three different spellings now ;-)05:44
@preaction-mit's caret, says dictionary.com05:45
PedersenMJDang, forgot that.05:45
PedersenMJUsed to know that. Must have been thinking diamonds, or something.05:45
PedersenMJWow... I would say she sucks at Docs, but I'm not much better.05:47
@preaction-mi think it's just the medium, she seems to be good at pagemaker05:48
PedersenMJSo, how do I "upload to your style template's directory, making sure to give it the URL you specified in the head of the document."05:48
@preaction-mlike the print stuff she's done is excellent05:48
@preaction-mgood god, what does that MEAN?05:48
PedersenMJWell, I'm working on the CSS file for my theme.05:49
@preaction-mand you're making a snippet for it?05:49
PedersenMJI'm supposed to upload it to the style's folder, I think, but... Nope, I had the actual file ready to go, instead of using the snippet.05:49
Radix-wrkSo upload it as a file/file pile to the same directory as your style05:50
@preaction-moh yeah, just make a File asset in the folder, it will ask you to upload and specify the URL05:50
@preaction-m(may want to append "clarify this line '' to this ''" to your bug report05:50
Radix-wrkthe file/filepile is smart - it recognises .css files, converts them to snippets and sets the right mime type05:50
PedersenMJAha... Yeah, it tried to put the file under "burned/burned.css" instead of "/burned.css"05:51
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@preaction-mdid you explicitly give it the correct URL?05:51
PedersenMJI have now, I thought, but am unable to retrieve it.05:51
Radix-wrkYou shouldn't use explicit paths in your style if you want to package it later though05:52
PedersenMJWhich goes explicitly *against* the docs on that page.05:52
Radix-wrkWouldn't surprise me :)05:52
@preaction-mi'd say get a discussion going. perhaps we need to start adding Threads to our documentation, like a lot of FOSS software packages do, so users can post additional information about the docs05:54
PedersenMJDammit. I have *no* idea how I'm supposed to find this css file.05:54
@preaction-mlike annocpan, or mysql's docs05:54
@preaction-mit should be in the folder you uploaded it into05:54
PedersenMJRoot/Import Node/Burned05:54
@preaction-mthough notice at the very bottom of the doc, there's a lesson on creating a snippet to hold your CSS05:54
PedersenMJOkay, did it as a snippet, and still get 404 on that url.05:59
@preaction-mcheck permissions? commit version tag?06:00
PedersenMJSo, here's where I am, what I've done. Hopefully, someone can tell me how I've been the idiot :)06:02
PedersenMJI've turned an index.html page into a template page (adding vars, etc, as needed).06:02
PedersenMJI've made a new folder, named "Burned", under Root->Import Node06:03
PedersenMJ(The name of the theme is, obviously, Burned)06:03
PedersenMJUnder that folder, I've made another folder called "images", which is where I've stashed the relevant images for the theme (all four of them)06:03
PedersenMJIn the "Burned" folder, I've placed the templatized index.html, and marked it as a style.06:04
PedersenMJI've created a snippet, given it the url of "burned.css".06:04
PedersenMJNow, the style works *as a style*. But I can't (outside of WebGUI Admin Console) see burned.css06:05
PedersenMJNor can I see any of my images (just tried) outside of webgui.06:05
@preaction-mdid you commit your version tag? did you check the permissions on this stuff?06:06
PedersenMJHaven't checked the commit version tag. BTW, I know that, to some degree, I sound like I know what I'm doing. I don't. I've never used WebGUI for anything other than "Hey, that's a pretty cool looking thing."06:07
@preaction-mcommit your version tag and see if that works06:07
PedersenMJOkay, improvement. images showed up. Now double-checking the burned.css snippet, to make sure I did what I was supposed to.06:09
@preaction-manybody else getting an iPhone? i think i might just get a Cingular 8525 (HTC TyTN) right now, rather than wait 6 months and pay $600 for something that I'm not sure will tether to my laptop for internet access06:09
PedersenMJSweet! Now, I've got issues with my template, but *that's* fine. Now I'm down to working out the bugs in the template itself, rather than trying to figure out why I can't even find URLs that should be there :)06:11
@preaction-mboy those crickets just got loud06:11
Radix-wrkiPhone looks nice in that they've done away with the stylus - and it's going to push the whole windows mobile development along heaps I'm hoping06:12
Radix-wrkI hope to see heaps of iPhone interface clones for WM5 in the coming months06:12
@preaction-mindeed, well, if it's a true OSX and not a "version" like windows CE is a "version" of Windows06:12
PedersenMJAs for iPhone, I rather doubt I'll get it. I might, finally, get a mac by the end of the year, but iPhone doesn't quite look like what I want.06:12
Radix-wrkpfft.. sif it's a full OSX06:12
@preaction-mif it has the full suite of libraries, and can compile some simple NES emulators, i'm totally down06:13
Radix-wrkI have an O2 Atom atm myself06:13
Radix-wrkSimilar size and shape to the iphone, though admittedly a bit fatter (about 7mm)06:14
@preaction-mhaven't heard of that one, googling06:14
@preaction-mdoes it tether to bluetooth computers and provide a modem?06:15
Radix-wrkof course06:15
Radix-wrkwifi as well06:15
@preaction-mFM radio tuner, nice06:15
Radix-wrkthe exec has a 520Mhz processor too06:15
Radix-wrkinteresting that there are no technical specs for the iPhone too - did you notice that06:16
@preaction-mthe TyTN only gets 400MHz06:16
Radix-wrkthey do not say what processor is running in it, or how much memory (just 4GB/8GB storage)06:16
@preaction-myeah... another reason why i don't want to wait really06:16
Radix-wrkthe o2 atom is only triband GSM tho06:17
Radix-wrkyou prolly want quad band in the US06:17
@preaction-mreally? i don't understand those things06:17
Radix-wrkIn Australia though, we only really use GSM, so fine for us06:17
@preaction-mdoes o2 atom have removable storage? micro-sd?06:18
Radix-wrkyou guys use different frequencies to us06:18
Radix-wrkyeah.. mini-sd, has a nice little slot at the top06:18
@preaction-mno keyboard at all?06:18
@preaction-mso an on-screen display06:19
Radix-wrkstylus/touch screen for keypad yeah06:19
@preaction-mhow will i type efficiently with that? :'( no deal06:19
@preaction-miphone also, no keyboard, but the other features and awesomeness outweighs my need to have a keyboard so i can IRC06:19
@preaction-mbut i suppose if i'm tethering, why would i need a keyboard?06:20
Radix-wrkI mostly use mine for ebooks and phone calls myself06:20
Radix-wrkI text, but not enough that it's a big burden06:20
Radix-wrkI have to use the stylus for the texting06:20
@preaction-mmy main goal is complete mobility. i want to be able to be half-way across the country in the middle of nowhere. if i have digital cell reception, i can work ;)06:21
@preaction-mi know it's a lofty, unattainable goal, but it's fun to try06:21
Radix-wrki love the ability to read ebooks wherever I go myself - while standing in a queue, while on the train/bus, any moment where I have free time and a free hand to hold the phone06:21
Radix-wrkI have a mini-sd full of ebooks and just read whenever I like06:22
@preaction-mand, heh, apparently o2 doesn't have sales outside the US06:22
@preaction-mi'd have to import and beg someone to be my carrier06:22
Radix-wrkimate probably do a clone06:22
Radix-wrkit's not a HTC phone tho.. unlike almost every other one out there06:23
Radix-wrkit's made by another taiwanese manufacturer - Quanta06:23
Radix-wrkthe tytn looks good if you like the slideout keyboard tho06:24
@preaction-mi do indeed06:24
@preaction-malso the i-mate JamIn has a 200mhz processor, not enough for my plans for mobile software development (if I can't get an NES emulator durnit i'll make one)06:25
Radix-wrkit has hsdpa too, which the iPhone never will :)06:25
Radix-wrkyeah, I looked at the jamin when I got my atom06:25
@preaction-mbut the jamin has the conference call thingy06:25
Radix-wrknice, but everyone was complaining about the processor speed not being enough for skype, etc06:26
@preaction-mooh, i need skype for work06:26
Radix-wrkthere is a low processor version of skype now tho06:26
@preaction-mworst thing about Cingular, they neutered the tytn and removed the user-facing camera (so no video phoning)06:27
Radix-wrkUmm.. would you ever actually use it anyway?06:27
@preaction-mwebcam-like feature, i assume06:27
@preaction-mbut i suppose the front-facing one would work just fine for that06:28
* PedersenMJ interrupts: http://www.nochara.org/testpage06:28
@preaction-mwith a bluetooth headset06:28
PedersenMJI've still got to fix a bunch of things in there, such as how the left column gets used, and the navigation menus, but it's a start.06:28
@preaction-mlooks nice, but it looks like it's missing images (or it just doen'st like me)06:28
Radix-wrkyeah, no images here either06:28
@preaction-motherwise it looks great actually06:28
PedersenMJAnd I've gotta thank you two for helping it get this far. Even with those docs, I wouldn't have gotten this far. Ah, forgot them, thank you!06:29
* preaction-m hates the current default style with a passion06:29
PedersenMJI see why they're missing. That carotFileUrl bit in the docs is (also) wrong.06:29
@preaction-mi want to propose having the demo sites randomly pick one of a dozen or so styles when a demo is created06:29
@preaction-mew ew ew06:29
Radix-wrkthat'd be cool06:30
@preaction-mgood thing you decided to use them06:30
PedersenMJthe docs?06:30
PedersenMJWhy, so I can report all the errors? :)06:30
@preaction-mthe demo thing might be something i just Implement and show off, it seems that you get better results from JT if you show him something that works, and not just an idea06:30
Radix-wrkDid you know you can use "richEditorsUseAssetUrls" : "1" and "enableStreamingUploads" : "1", to avoid the whole fileurl macro completely?06:31
@preaction-mPedersenMJ: exactly06:31
PedersenMJRadix-wrk: Nope, sure didn't.06:31
Radix-wrkyou can then use the webgui url's everywhere and they'll get auto-converted06:31
@preaction-mhell, i didn't :p06:31
PedersenMJAs for reporting all of the problems, I'm definitely going to have a list. Hell, I'm going to have re-read this whole convo just to do so.06:31
@preaction-mgood idea, if we can start re-building a decent documentation base for WebGUI, we might get back the community we lost06:32
@preaction-mapparently this place (and others) used to be popular06:32
Radix-wrkinteresting to see the irc logs actually06:33
Radix-wrkWhen I started idling on here this place was down to 2-3 ppl06:33
Radix-wrkless sometimes06:33
@preaction-mwas that about last oct? i think that's when i started hanging out06:34
@preaction-mfirst as Hawkaloogie, then with a more PC nethandle06:34
Radix-wrkI started earlier in the year - probably 4-5 months before then I think06:34
Radix-wrkwas just me, xdanger and crythias mostly06:35
@preaction-mwhatever happened to that guy doing the myspace-like thing with webgui?06:35
PedersenMJFor some reason, that handle makes me think of the movie "Finding Nemo". Mt Wannahawkaloogie.06:36
@preaction-mi don't even remember now06:36
Radix-wrkhttp://juga.org/gadgets btw ;)06:38
PedersenMJHey, here's another fun one: If I'm working on a CSS snippet, how should I specify a background image? (samples coming)06:38
Radix-wrkyou can use the fileurl method06:38
@preaction-mprobably a ^FileUrl();06:38
PedersenMJbackground: #000000 url(^FileUrl(images/a1.jpg);) top left 06:38
PedersenMJbackground: #000000 url('carotFileUrl(images/a2.jpg);') top left 06:39
Radix-wrkor if you set the above parameters I said, you can use put in images/a1.jpg06:39
PedersenMJI've already uploaded the files, though.06:39
PedersenMJWait, I think I misunderstood how to do it... Where do I set those parameters?06:40
@preaction-min the configuration file06:41
Radix-wrkin your webgui config file06:41
@preaction-mit will even Just Work when you export it06:41
Radix-wrkyou'll need to restart webgui when you've done it06:41
Radix-wrkYou mean package it?06:41
Radix-wrknot sure actually.. not tried it06:42
@preaction-mwait, you have a Nintento Power Glove modded for your PC?06:42
@preaction-mhow the heck did that happen?06:42
@preaction-mdid you do it?06:42
Radix-wrkthat was part of my honours thesis project actually06:42
Radix-wrkyeah, was pretty easy to do, just followed instructions06:42
@preaction-mgood lord06:42
@preaction-mthere's something like 20 buttons on that thing, no?06:43
Radix-wrkI experimented with new 3d interface techniques for virtual worlds using the powerglove as my thesis06:43
Radix-wrkyeah, it has a full d-pad and the like on it06:43
@preaction-mand with 7 pins, 1 ground and 1 input leaving 5, there's only a possibility of .. nevermind, far more than 20 buttons06:43
Radix-wrkain't used that in years tho.. did that about 12 years ago06:44
@preaction-m5! = 12006:44
Radix-wrkit's in a plastic bag collecting dust these days :)06:44
@preaction-mcrap i'm young06:44
@preaction-myou could totally use that thing as some sort of space-age web browsing device06:45
@preaction-ma la Minority Report06:45
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@preaction-mAH! Run!06:46
Radix-wrkbetter to simply get a Nintendo Wii-mote these days tho :)06:46
PedersenMJAh, he has risen ;)06:47
@preaction-mooh even better, it's already bluetooth06:47
@rizenare you running from me doug?06:47
@preaction-mand iirc there's already drivers for OSX and others06:47
@preaction-muh.... no?06:47
Radix-wrkthe powerglove used ink switches - only 2 bits of info per finger - so you could only really get open or closed reliably I found06:47
@preaction-mthat's still pretty durned cool06:48
@preaction-mbut add some sort of switches at the base of the finger for up/down/left/right movements, and maybe an accelerometer for the whole hand, and you'd be golden06:48
Radix-wrkyeah, was great fun to turn my playing around with it into my honours thesis :)06:48
Radix-wrkit does give 3d motion as well06:49
Radix-wrkit had sensor bar that went on your tv much like the wiimotes do today06:49
@preaction-min/out, up/down, left/right?06:49
Radix-wrkso it could give 3d positioning in space06:49
@preaction-mnow I want to play with one. did you just hook it up to a parallel port and start probing?06:50
Radix-wrknah.. found instructions on what to wire up where - got power for it from the game port (5v), and parallel for everything else06:50
Radix-wrkthere was already drivers written for the virtual construction set - a virtual reality toolkit06:51
Radix-wrkI grabbed the c code for that and simply extended it to add my own custom UI stuff06:51
PedersenMJHey, rizen? Tricky question for ya: I'm working on one of those themes right now, and having an issue with some background images. I've set the CSS up as a snippet, and the images referenced in it aren't being resolved. Tried setting some extra options that Radix gave me for rich editors, but the CSS snippets don't use rich editors. Anyway, I need to know how to put a ^FileUrl() macro into the CSS snippet, and can't find it (yet).06:51
@preaction-myou just edit the snippet and type ^FileUrl(url/to/the/file.jpg);06:52
Radix-wrkvirtual reality was the field I was hoping to get into after graduating.. got into CAD/CAM instead06:53
PedersenMJTried that. Source: "background: #000000 url(^FileUrl(images/a1.jpg);) top left no-repeat;" Output: "background: #000000 url('carotFileUrl(images/a2.jpg);') top left no-repeat;"06:53
@rizenmake sure that the FileUrl macro is turned on in your webgui config06:54
@rizencuz what doug said is absolutely correct06:54
@preaction-mbut why would it turn into 'carotFileUrl'? is the snippet not being processed as a template perhaps?06:55
@preaction-ma note: better to ask questions to the entire channel, saying someone's name usually causes their IRC client to beep annoyingly06:55
PedersenMJAh, sorry. Thank you. Will do so.06:55
@rizenthe template thing has nothing to do with it06:56
@rizencuz macros aren't templates06:56
@rizenthat is weird06:56
@rizenthat it's turning into the word carrot06:56
PedersenMJI just turned on "process as template" to make sure. And just re-checked config file. FileUrl *is* enabled.06:57
PedersenMJIt's worth noting that this is
PedersenMJActually, not quite the word carrot (the vegetable), but rather the word carot (mispelling of caret, or one of the other variants of the same).06:58
@rizenok sorry06:58
@rizenmy faout06:58
@rizenbut still06:58
@rizeni have no idea what would cause that06:58
@rizenregardless, you should at least be running on the latest 7.2.x release06:59
PedersenMJ"macros" : { (among others), "FileUrl" : "FileUrl", (and many others) }06:59
@rizenbut i don't think that has anything to do with this problem06:59
@rizenit's just a statement06:59
PedersenMJIt wasn't trying to point out error on your part, it was just in case it was somehow significant.06:59
PedersenMJAs for the upgrade, I'm doing it once 7.3 is marked as stable. Definitely doing it then.07:00
@preaction-mwoohoo, frank's fixed the calendar's tooltip bugs, and it works on every browser i've tested (IE7, FF2, Opera, Safari, Konqueror). yay Yui!07:00
@rizenthe word "carot" does not exist in the source code of webgui07:01
@rizenso something else is doing that07:01
@rizencould you paste the snippet into that snippet site07:02
@rizenand put the url here07:02
@preaction-mPedersenMJ: is that test URL still valid?07:02
@rizenwhat's it called07:02
PedersenMJNow *that* is weird. http://www.nochara.org/testpage07:02
PedersenMJWhat's weird: I was following the docs from http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style07:02
@rizencopy the contents of the snippet into that07:03
@rizenand post the url07:03
PedersenMJNow, in *that* page, "carot" does appear. I had followed the steps to upload the css, and named it "burned.css". The snippet is now being resolved as "burned2.css", but doesn't (as far as I recall) have the word "carot" in it.07:04
PedersenMJWill c/p now, just a sec.07:04
@preaction-mdid you commit your version tag? ;)07:04
PedersenMJYes, test url is still valid. And I've been committing version tags ever since I found out I was an idiot for not doing so :)07:05
@preaction-mok, your snippet is not what's being shown at burned2.css07:06
@preaction-myou might want to check if there's a running workflow07:06
PedersenMJWhat? Weirdness... gimme a minute.07:06
@preaction-mAdmin Console > Workflow > Show Running Workflows (in the right column)07:06
@preaction-mif you notice the bottom stuff at burned2.css is different from what you pasted07:06
@rizeni was going to say07:06
@rizenthere are a couple of problems here07:07
@preaction-m(it doesn't have .loginBox class, for example)07:07
@rizennumber 1: what he said07:07
@rizen2: what you pasted doesn't have ' ' around the macro07:07
@rizenbut if you look at http://www.nochara.org/burned2.css07:07
@rizenit does have ' '07:07
@rizenso they aren't the same content07:07
@rizen3: your <link> tag in your content07:08
@rizendoesn't specify a fully qualified url07:08
@rizenwhich is going to cause problems after the home page07:08
@rizenif you ever do get this working07:08
PedersenMJDang it. I forgot to restart spectre when I restarted webgui when I added those params for the rich editor.07:11
PedersenMJOkay, that's better. Now I've just got bad URLs, but that's not as big a deal.07:14
PedersenMJAnd then the remaining issues you've already laid out, rizen.07:14
PedersenMJJT == rizen, yes? If so, do you mind if I call you JT?07:16
@rizendon't care07:17
PedersenMJThanks. BTW, my handle is pretty close to real name, if you wish to use it. Michael Pedersen (or Mike, or Ped, or Pedersen, or pick something else, just not my nose).07:17
@rizenhey you07:17
@rizendoes that work?07:18
PedersenMJActually, it's now pretty close. Once I restarted spectre, burned2.css was updated. Now, I'm getting bad URLs in the CSS, but that's something for me to try and dig into.07:18
PedersenMJbackground: #000000 url('/uploads/Sb/Gl/SbGlwgPoH_ufB065IfYtDQ/a1.jpg') top left no-repeat;07:19
@rizenwhy is that a bad url?07:19
PedersenMJAs opposed to "url('/images/a1.jpg')"07:19
@rizenthe first url is the real url of the file07:19
PedersenMJThat url gives me a 404, though.07:19
@rizenwherase /images/a1.jpg is the asset url07:19
@rizenif you just want to use /images/a1.jpg07:20
@rizenthen just type that in there07:20
@rizenand skip the macro part of it07:20
@rizenno ^FileUrl();07:20
PedersenMJWouldn't it be better for me to use the macro, or the AssetProxy() macro?07:21
PedersenMJEspecially if I'm going to be packaging it?07:21
@rizenthe asset proxy macro definitely not07:21
@rizencuz that will give you <img src="/uploads/Sb/Gl/SbGlwgPoH_ufB065IfYtDQ/a1.jpg" alt="xxx" />07:22
@rizenwhich obviously won't work in the style sheet07:22
PedersenMJTrue, didn't think of that.07:22
@rizenhere's the real difference between ^FileUrl(); and just using the raw asset url07:22
@rizenit's where you want your processing done07:23
@rizenusing FileUrl puts the real url of the file into your html code07:23
@rizenthat way, when the page requests the file07:23
@rizenthe web server can just serve up the image07:23
@rizenwithout hitting the database07:23
@rizenalso...the html will be cached07:23
@rizenso if the page is requested again07:23
@rizenthey'll never hit the db at all07:24
@rizennot for the page07:24
@rizenor the image07:24
@rizenif you use the asset url07:24
@rizenthen there's no processing done while creating the html page07:24
@rizenbut there is processing done when the image is requested07:24
@rizenbecause it's got to look up thte asset url in the database07:24
@rizeninstanciate the image asset07:24
@rizenand then return the image07:25
@rizenso it does a lot more work07:25
@rizenthe advantage of the first route is better performance (using FileUrl)07:25
@rizenthe advantage of the second rount (not using FileUrl) is vanity07:25
@rizenbecause the urls in the code look prettier07:25
@rizenbut who the hell looks at the code07:26
@rizeni always choose performance07:26
PedersenMJScrew it, I'll go with the ugly urls. I'm not particularly picky about that :)07:26
@rizeni know what we should do07:36
@rizenlet's email the dev mailing list07:36
@rizenand suggest we do something that jt has already said we can't do07:36
@rizenyeah, that would be fun07:36
PedersenMJNow, now, maybe he's just an idiot like me, and needs a sound beating with a clue-by-four, eh?07:38
@rizeni'm a bad person to be running a community07:39
@rizeni just have no patience07:39
@rizenwe just need to pour my knowledge into someone with infinite patience07:39
@rizenand we'd have the ultimate webgui community leader07:39
PedersenMJProblem: Since there is no human with infinite patience, we'd sooner or later get a crabby old man saying "You kids get off my damn lawn!", which would leave us back where we started ;)07:41
@rizenok then07:42
PedersenMJSomething tells me I just earned "stupidest idea of 2007" by teasing the leader. I'll just have to hope not.07:43
@preaction-mthe year is young, and i have plenty of stupid ideas to think of yet07:44
@rizennah teasing me does nothing07:44
PedersenMJGood. Thick skin is good around me.07:45
PedersenMJOkay, it's gettingthere. For some reason, the snippet isn't updating again (and I've been reloading spectre to make sure it's running). However, the graphics are now there.07:50
PedersenMJAs is the login (but, since it's white on light background, it's *very* difficult to see).07:51
@rizenmake sure you set the cache timeout to 007:51
@rizenwhile you're working on it07:51
@rizenwhy am i supporting you...i shouldn't be doing hta07:51
PedersenMJI never thought of that. Thank you. Just restarted the web server.07:52
PedersenMJBecause I'm a nice guy?07:52
@rizenlots of people are nice guys07:52
@rizenbut if i support all of them07:52
@rizeni'm out of business07:52
@rizenand no more webgui07:52
@preaction-mi was under the impression that this package would be a commmunity contribution07:53
PedersenMJWell, even though I'm not doing support incidents right now, I *am* looking to learn something to help grow the community (namely, how to make these themes work, and get packaged)07:53
@preaction-mhe says hopefully07:53
PedersenMJNot just this theme, but the other two I found last night. If it becomes easy enough for me, I'll try and do some others while I'm at it.07:54
@rizenok fair enough07:54
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PedersenMJYeeha! http://www.nochara.org/testpage07:58
PedersenMJNow, I just have to figure out what I should put in that column on the left, plug in one of the navigation systems already built in, and then learn how to package this beast up.07:58
PedersenMJThen, feedback, so I find out what I got wrong, and then learn how to package better. Hoepfully, another week, and I'll have at least one well done theme contributed, and can work on two others.08:00
Radix-wrkif you're doing a style template, then ideally it shouldn't dictate the columns.  they should be done using the page layout template08:00
PedersenMJVery good point. Okay, so I need to learn how to incorporate *that* correctly. That, though, will be for tomorrow night, I think.08:00
Radix-wrkusually the style template simply has the logo, css, any js and perhaps a common navigation (if it is designed for the entire site)08:00
PedersenMJDefinitely going to get some sort of navigation into the package for it. Try to make it optional though, so that people can use what they like.08:01
Radix-wrkWell.. as long as you have the <tmpl_var body.content> variable in your style then it should work08:02
PedersenMJReally? Cool. Then I should probably just delete that second div, so it just gets hidden entirely.08:02
Radix-wrkand you'll probably find the default page layouts will work fine with your new style if you did it right08:02
Radix-wrkyou can always tweak them later if you need to08:03
Radix-wrkmake sure 08:03
Radix-wrk<tmpl_var head.tags> is in the head section too btw08:03
PedersenMJIt seems to be correct. The hard part was getting colors on the login box. Now that I know about that, though, it seems okay. More work to do, but a decent enough start.08:03
PedersenMJYep, I did get that in there. Which is another update to the docs, as the page text makes it look like "<tmpl_var head tags>" is the correct thing to do.08:04
Radix-wrkYou'll be able to write up a nice wiki article  on how to convert one of those styles to a webgui style soon I'm sure.08:05
PedersenMJMost likely. And believe me, I will. It's kinda nice to be able to give some back to those thathelp.08:06
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PedersenMJThere. Removed that secondaryContent section. That means tomorrow night will be getting the menus working, and updating my bug report about the documentation. After that, packaging either over the weekend or the beginning of next weekend.08:20
PedersenMJerm, beginning of next week.08:22
PedersenMJAnyway, g'night all. Will chat more tomorrow. And, JT, if you do feel I've cheated you since you were helping me tonight, let me know. I'll pay for the support.08:24
@rizendon't worry about it08:25
@rizenjust use your knowledge for good08:25
@rizennot evil08:25
PedersenMJI will do so. And see if I can't use it to help build the community.08:26
PedersenMJG'night. Will chat manana.08:26
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Radix-wrkI just added my first Wiki page - http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/how-to-make-a-google-sitemap-of-your-webgui-site09:22
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iPhoneGuysomeone could please add total number of votes to the pie chart Poll? Results without total votes number is pretty pointless...12:59
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pjesihi guys17:13
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pjesiDBD::mysql::st execute failed: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''50'' at line 2 at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/SQL/ResultSet.pm line 135.17:27
pjesierror in the Wiki 17:27
pjesiversion 7.3.317:28
pjesisorry didnt spot the 7.3.4 release17:31
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+perlDreameris plainblack okay?  We didn't get a smoke-test run last night.18:29
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+perlDreameranyone up for a bug discussion?19:00
+perlDreamerwebgui has a few19:36
+perlDreamerjust a few19:36
+perlDreamertake for example this one:19:37
+perlDreamerSpectre will clean up large files, but if you fill the cache with lots of small files you can blow the inode limits on the cache directory19:37
+perlDreamerI think it would be good to add a file limit to the workflow activity called CleanFileCache19:39
+perlDreamerbut I don't know if that would interfere with large sites that may generate lots of cache files.19:44
+perlDreamerI guess if you deleted cache files beyond a certain age that might be safe19:44
+perlDreamerit would be easier to find out why the RSS pre-fetcher is leaking directories19:59
+perlDreamerif it didn't, then the problem wouldn't exist19:59
@khennThe asset manager really needs to have pagination20:29
+perlDreameryou working on a big site?20:30
@khennI just added 1800 articles to a collaboration system and neither IE or Firefox will bring up the page with all the events20:30
+perlDreamerI think there's even an RFE for that20:31
@khennie:  the asset manager does not scale20:31
+perlDreamernope, I was thinking of manage committed versions20:32
+perlDreamermaybe we can do it in 7.420:32
+perlDreamerbtw, I think someone probably needs to give spectre a swift kick20:33
+perlDreamerthe smoke tests weren't run yesterday20:33
+perlDreameron plainblack.com20:33
ckotilyeah my commited version list is a mile long20:33
ckotilitd be nice to group them in a sensible way20:34
+perlDreamerby time?20:34
ckotilmonth works for me20:34
+perlDreamerwe'd have to write a new pagination method for that20:34
@khennso spectre doesn't really like the 1800+ requests I sent it20:35
@khennit's taking some time to run through everything20:35
@khenn2hrs and counting20:35
+perlDreameryou redefine stress testing20:47
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+perlDreamerwell, I think I found where the RSS cache is leaking21:15
@rizenthe rss cache is leaking?21:15
@rizenperhaps we shouldn't use the fs cache for rss21:17
+perlDreamerI'm guessing that it is making lots of small files and then hitting inode limits before hitting size limits21:17
* crythias perks up? RSS? inode?21:18
+perlDreamerit's using whatever the user tells it to21:18
+perlDreamerFile or db or memcache21:18
@rizeni'm saying maybe we should just cache it directly into the SyndicatedContent table21:18
+perlDreamerwould that allow the cache to be shared across multiple Assets?21:20
ckotilanyone know what could be causing this error when i upload a gif via file pile asset?21:20
ckotil/usr/sbin/httpd: symbol lookup error: /usr/local/lib/ImageMagick-6.2.8/modules-Q16/coders/gif.so: undefined symbol: ConstantString21:20
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ckotiluploads go through. but after the file pile im left at a blank white screen. luckily this is on my dev box and not the production one.21:23
@rizenperlDreamer: no21:23
@rizenperlDreamer: but that's ok21:23
iPhoneGuywhat do you think about adding the total number of votes to the pie chart Poll?21:24
+perlDreameriPhoneGuy: that would make a good RFE21:24
iPhoneGuywithout it a Poll is pretty pointless21:24
@rizenthat's already an rfe21:24
iPhoneGuythere is already?21:24
@rizenyes..someone submitted it a while ago21:24
@rizeni don't know where it is in the list though21:24
@rizenprobably in the middle some place21:24
@rizenare you a cisco iphone or an apple iphone?21:25
iPhoneGuywell RFEs can be well forgotten... Don't you think it's a simple yet pretty urgent thing to add?21:25
+crythiasCSS Grid Builder... http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/grids/21:25
iPhoneGuyheh Apple of course... Cisco got just the name... Their product sucks21:25
@rizenit's neither simple or urgent21:25
+perlDreamerthe RFE has 0 karma21:26
iPhoneGuyso you think Poll results without total number of votes make sense? I think it doesnt21:26
@rizendepends upon your needs21:26
@rizenfor our needs it's fine21:26
+crythiasGot an image? you can get colors to match http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/grids/21:26
@rizenall i care about is the percentage of votes21:26
@rizennot the number21:26
@rizeni'm not saying it wouldn't be useful21:27
@rizenbut there's a lot of stuff that would be useful21:27
@rizeneverything on the RFE list for that mater21:27
@rizenand then some21:27
iPhoneGuyYou can get the percentage by the chart itself... Not the total number. Not showing the total number of votes means the Poll is just senseless in a statistical perspective21:27
@rizenoh...if fyou just want the total number21:27
@rizenthen you can already do that21:27
@rizenyou just have to add it to your template21:27
+crythiasHaving an online poll is generally senseless in any statistically important way.21:28
iPhoneGuyAs of now, it's possible using the default chart. Not using 3D charts21:28
@rizencrythias: i couldn't agree more21:28
@rizenno...you can do it with the 3d chart too21:28
iPhoneGuycrythias: not really21:28
@rizencuz all the variables that are availabe in teh html chart21:28
@rizenare available in the template for the 3d chart as well21:29
iPhoneGuyOh good then I can do that myself :)21:29
@rizenit's the same template21:29
@rizenthey're just seperated by an "if"21:29
iPhoneGuyBut this makes the whole thing even more amazing... Why there is for html and not for 3D?21:29
+crythiasiPhoneGuy: if you think so, then I say let's use online voting for President, now. Vote early, vote often.21:29
@rizeniphoneguy: stop arguing21:30
iPhoneGuyhah it's just a funny quote or what21:30
+perlDreameriPhoneGuy: It's just how the template is written. The capabilities are still there.21:30
iPhoneGuyOk fine21:30
@rizenput your arguements in the rfe21:30
@rizeni'm not an rfe list21:30
@rizenand neither is irc21:31
iPhoneGuywhat's this for then?21:31
iPhoneGuyabout WebGUI... So I think WebGUI RFE are just on topic21:32
@rizendiscussing ideas is one thing21:32
+perlDreamertelling people they're wrong, senseless, stupid, etc. is another21:32
@rizentrying to convince me of something after i've already told you that it's an rfe is another21:32
iPhoneGuyIt's just my opinion guys... Why you get worried for that21:32
@rizeni'm not worried about your opinion21:33
@rizenyou should have your opinion21:33
iPhoneGuySo what's the problem21:33
+crythias'cause we won't argue with the dev for stuff that's not high priority.21:33
@rizenyou just shouldn't try to force your opinion on others21:33
iPhoneGuyyou seem to want start a flame or something21:33
iPhoneGuyjust keep it cool21:33
@rizeni don't want to start a flame21:33
@rizenlet me try to explain it to you another way21:34
iPhoneGuynor I want to force opinions to others21:34
@rizenwhat i'm trying to say is that you seem to think that this should be higher priority than evertying else just cuz you want it21:34
@rizenand everyone thinks that about the things that they want21:34
@rizenthis is why we have an rfe list21:34
@rizenwith karma21:34
@rizenso people can put their karma wheir their mouth is21:35
iPhoneGuynot really... I said for me it's senseless. For you it's not? Ok no problem, keep going. No need to argue more21:35
+crythiasJesse. I was thinking about the same thing re: reset password.21:36
iPhoneGuyI agree with RFE... But that works when the list is not that big. Now that there are lots of entries, I doubt people spend a lot of time browsing and reviewing all of it21:36
* crythias thinks reset password shouldn't be automatic, or at least not until clicking a link in an email.21:36
+perlDreamerThat's why you should prime it with your own karma to get it near the top of the list21:37
+perlDreameror, if the RFE is approved, just code it yourself and submit a patch21:37
iPhoneGuysame thing applies... Just one person Karma isn't enough for the RFE to go on top if the list is big21:37
+crythiasyeah... or beg for karma people to add karma to your rfe.21:37
+crythiaswell, not really.21:37
+perlDreameror build your own karma by working the boards, submitting bugs, taking polls, etc.21:38
+crythiassome people have gobs of karma (me) and would like to apply karma to smth.21:38
iPhoneGuyI mean for a newcomer21:38
ckotilim ready to spend my karma on some pb warez21:38
+crythiasnothing wrong with begging for karma.21:38
+perlDreamerkarma can also be bought, or you could contract with PB to get it done as well21:39
+crythiasit's happened, though I didn't like a specific RFE.21:39
+perlDreameror, in this case, if you'd read the online docs for the Poll template you would have found the answer yourself.21:39
+crythiashint: I just dropped 2000 karma on that pie chart thing. it's front page, now.21:40
iPhoneGuyah yeah WebGUI docs are so good! lol21:40
iPhoneGuywoha thanks crythias!21:40
+crythiasand I have 6300 left to spend.21:40
+perlDreamerit's rated at 1:1021:41
iPhoneGuycan I suggest you some other RFE to raise? :D21:41
+crythiasdepends on what the invis difficulty rating might be21:41
iPhoneGuyAh a question21:42
iPhoneGuyI recently saw a 6.x website and it had an advanced search box21:43
iPhoneGuyWhy does 7 got such a basic search?21:43
iPhoneGuyit's a complete rewrite of the 6.x search?21:43
+perlDreamerrizen: there may be a good way to fix the caching system just by changing the default cache timeout from "1 year" to "1 month".21:46
@rizenthe 7.x search is actually far more powerful than the 6.x search21:46
@rizenit just does it with less boxes21:46
@rizenthe default cache timeout is 1 hour21:47
+perlDreamermy bad21:47
+perlDreamerAll cached RSS feeds are set for 1 year21:47
+perlDreamerwe could change it to 1 month21:47
@rizenthey should be only for 1 hour as well21:47
@rizenrss is only good for about an hour for most sites21:47
@rizenand then their updated again21:47
iPhoneGuyWell Google search is powerful but they do have an advanced search option21:47
+perlDreamerthat's an easy fix21:47
@rizenso make it an rfe then21:48
@rizeni'm not an rfe list, as i said before21:48
iPhoneGuyYeah I'm browsing trough them and there's one already21:48
iPhoneGuycrythias you might spend some more karma? :)21:48
+perlDreamershould we nuke the current RSS cache during the upgrade as well?21:48
@rizenthere are some users than have more the 30k karma21:48
iPhoneGuyplainblack staff I guess21:49
@rizeni have the most karma on the pb staff21:49
@rizenand it's only 8k21:49
@rizenphone support customers get 5k per month21:49
iPhoneGuyand who then.. I don't see such big activity on the forums21:49
iPhoneGuyoh ok21:49
@rizenalso, we have some contests coming up21:50
iPhoneGuyI didn't knew that... It's written on the website?21:50
@rizenstarting next week i think21:50
@rizenyou can win up to 10k karma21:50
@rizenin addition to other stuff21:50
iPhoneGuycontests like fixing bugs, adding things, etc.?21:50
@rizenalso, each time you vote on a poll you get 100 karma21:50
@rizenthe one that will start next week21:50
@rizenwill be for writing howtos for something in webgui21:50
@rizenlike "how to create a cool poll template"21:51
@rizenor "how to use a package"21:51
iPhoneGuyon the Wiki I guess21:51
@rizenor "how to manage users"21:51
@rizeneach contest will be different21:51
@rizensome will be design related21:51
@rizensome programming21:51
iPhoneGuyI also would like to see this.. Crythias  you there? :D http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/internal-communication-between-users#gAMUJeMKE4OF3ZKY3EQ7jg21:51
+crythiaspms, you mean? 21:52
iPhoneGuywould be really useful for lots of people21:52
iPhoneGuywell any community website will find it useful21:53
+perlDreamermine won't21:53
iPhoneGuyevery forum script has private messages... WebGUI does not21:53
+crythiasanyone who wants to be reached can allow contact info to be available.21:53
iPhoneGuyAlso other CMSs21:53
+crythiassome more enterprising people even include ALL the IM reachable ways.21:54
iPhoneGuyNot really... I run a website with lots of users and PhpBB private messages are used  really A LOT21:54
+crythiasspeaking of which, I suppose I need to redo my user1 macro...21:54
+crythiasyeah, but why do I want a third party to hold those messages for me?21:55
iPhoneGuyThird party?21:55
+crythiasyeah, you21:56
iPhoneGuyThat's why they should be part of webgui21:56
+crythiasphpBB is the third party21:56
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iPhoneGuyheh that's your opinion. But if you look at almost every community website, you'll find that private messages are used a lot21:56
+crythiashow would I know?21:56
iPhoneGuyBy reading the forum21:57
iPhoneGuyusers often say when they send PM, etc.21:57
+crythiasI'd just as easily say emailme offlist. or im me on Y!IM/AIM/MSM/ICQ21:57
iPhoneGuyIt's not a handy way a lot of times. If you are abroad or out of your comp, you might not have email and IM21:58
iPhoneGuyforum PMs are just more handy21:58
iPhoneGuyit's better to have it integrated with your system22:00
+crythiasbetter than what?22:00
iPhoneGuythere should be a reason why all forum scripts have that feature. And it's because it is being used by users, not because it's fancy22:00
@rizenactually...not all forum scripts have it22:01
+crythiasbecause private communications between users is important to the stability and reuse of a bb?22:01
iPhoneGuybetter than what you said. Something not integrated, sapareted: email, AIM/ICQ, IRC, etc.22:01
@rizenprimarily it's phpBB that has it22:01
@rizenand that script is used EVERYWHERE22:01
@rizenso you just think that they all have it22:01
iPhoneGuyvBullettin, IPB, and loads more22:01
@rizenok, but i can also name a lot of them that don't have it22:02
@rizenyou're arguing again22:02
@rizenrather than just putting your argument on the rfe list22:02
iPhoneGuythe one that don't have it are just not being used22:02
iPhoneGuyI am speaking about the ones widely used by websites22:02
+crythiasIf someone wants to pm me, they know how to do it. If it's too inconvenient for them, they don't have to contact me.22:03
@rizenyour suposition is that the reason they're not being used is that they don't have private messaging22:03
+crythiasand all is nice and peaceful in my world.22:03
iPhoneGuyeheh it's one of the reasons of course22:03
iPhoneGuyyour world :) fine22:03
iPhoneGuyBut the Web world is full of PMs eheh22:04
+crythiasdude, get over it. try a different flame pot. 22:04
iPhoneGuyflame? You're doing the whole thing, I'm just supporting facts22:05
* crythias puts a workflow that generates a private cs for every user who registers.22:05
iPhoneGuytoo bad for you if you don't want to listen to suggestions22:05
iPhoneGuythat's nice :)22:05
iPhoneGuyshould be pretty resource intensive22:05
iPhoneGuyif you have lots of new users every day...22:07
iPhoneGuyand anyway that won't allow people to communicate with each other privately22:07
+crythiasthen again, if I wanted to use x, because phpBB used it, I'd um...22:07
+crythiasuse phpbb22:08
iPhoneGuyif WebGUI had a plugin for it, sure I would too22:08
iPhoneGuybut if you want to use WebGUI as a CMS...22:08
+crythiaswhat do you need? SSO? no problem...22:08
+crythiassingle signon22:09
iPhoneGuyno problem?22:10
+crythiasnot by much.22:10
iPhoneGuyyou still have to write something custom, it's not out of the box. Not all things support LDAP22:10
+crythiasdoes phpbb support ldap?22:11
iPhoneGuyhence, building the PM into WebGUI would be better and useful to everyone22:11
+crythiasbut everyone uses phpbb22:11
iPhoneGuyrather than creating a custom solution22:11
iPhoneGuyeveryone uses vBullettin too :)22:11
+crythiasit's all about a custom auth module. after that, big deal. a plugin22:12
+crythiasand a link.22:12
iPhoneGuyindeed how many for it? :)22:12
+crythiashow many what for it? 22:12
iPhoneGuyfor the auth module and plugin22:13
+crythiasauth module=plugin22:13
iPhoneGuyquestion remain22:13
+crythiasexcept wre doesn't have php :(22:13
+crythiasbut how many what?22:13
iPhoneGuymoney.. It's a custom thing22:14
@khennI've actually had several requests for a PM system in WebGUI.  I think it's something we want to do, there are just more important things in the hopper22:14
@rizenthat's my special prices just for you22:14
@khennaren't you lowballing it a bit there JT?22:14
+crythiasIt really depends if you're going to use an existing phpBB userbase or simply adding phpbb to WebGUI usersbase22:14
@rizenyour right...for iPhoneGuy we need to do something extra special22:14
@khennIt's not an appropriate number unless you have to use powers22:15
iPhoneGuywoha your humor is really amazing :D22:15
@khenn$1E33 IMO22:15
* crythias puts his pinky finger at the side of his mouth... 1 Treelian dollarz!22:15
iPhoneGuycool khenn do you have any timeframe for it?22:15
@khennat that price?22:15
@khennI can have it done for you tomorrow =022:16
iPhoneGuyhah no I mean when you said it's something you want to do22:16
@rizeni'll have it for you this afternoon for half of what khenn is charging22:16
@khennI'm not sure really22:16
iPhoneGuyI don't think you have enough programmers to accomplish that for this afternoon :D22:17
@rizenwe want to do almost everything on the rfe list22:17
@rizenactually yes i do22:17
@khennI'll bet you $1E33 that we do!22:17
@rizeni can do it myself22:17
iPhoneGuyyeah but the RFE list keeps growing and will always grow so...22:17
@rizenit would only take about 2.5 hours to build22:17
@rizenand another hour to test22:17
@rizenat least the way i'm thinking about it22:17
@khennI think in grander scales22:17
@khennbut to just add that, yeah22:18
@rizenthe thing is, i don't want to do it22:18
@khennI think the whole messaging thing in WebGUI needs an overhaul22:18
@khennand part of that is the ability to send PMs22:18
@rizenyou think that about everything in webgui22:18
@rizenand you're an idiot22:18
@rizenthe messaging system in webgui was overhauled in 6.x22:19
@rizenand it was built with pm in mind22:19
@khennok overhauled was not the right word22:19
@rizenso that it can do it, all i need to do is finish it22:19
+crythiasbe easy to modify login.php to attach to WebGUI db22:19
@khennI think it needs a new user interface22:19
iPhoneGuybut now you said you don't want to.. So you changed your mind?22:19
@khennand yes, I do think that about everything in WebGUI =p22:19
@rizeni don't want to do it because iPhoneGuy wants it22:20
+crythiasI just don't want to get these "untitled"22:20
iPhoneGuyhah I thought that22:20
+crythiasmessages in email22:20
@rizenand he keeps arguing with you and me22:20
@rizenso screw him22:20
iPhoneGuyrather an infantile attitude22:20
+crythiasshut UP22:20
@rizeni'm taking my toys and going him22:20
iPhoneGuyanyway, hence my name, I will probably do an iPhone-ready interface for some WebGUI assets22:21
+crythiaslast thing we need now is a bunch of fanbois "but does it work with Cisco's iPhone?"22:21
iPhoneGuyhah yeah I guess there will be lots of Cisco's iPhone users lol22:22
iPhoneGuythey get lots of free advertising for that22:22
iPhoneGuybefore last Tuesday, pretty no one heard about Cisco's iPhone :D22:23
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iPhoneGuywell guys, thanks for the warm welcome anyway lol22:25
iPhoneGuykeeps newcomers like me :D22:25
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@rizendo you think that was just maxscience under a new name?22:41
@khennwho knows22:43
@khenndidn't seem like him22:43
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PedersenMJBuenas tardes!23:59
--- Day changed Fri Jan 12 2007
@rizenyou missed it00:00
PedersenMJWhat did I miss?00:01
@rizenwe had a noob here today that was almost as bad as maxscience00:01
PedersenMJHeh. Still noob myself. Hopefully, only mildly annoying, though.00:01
PedersenMJDunno maxscience, though. And now am very curious what happened.00:01
@rizenhe couldn't understand why i wouldn't immediately move his rfe to the top of my todo list00:01
@rizenjust cuz he thought it was important00:01
PedersenMJLemme guess: His rfe, therefore should be first, and you should do it for free, right?00:02
@rizenmaxscience is one of those guys that joins a community00:02
@rizenwants the world for nothing00:02
@rizenand isn't willing to contribute anything himself00:02
@rizenexcept his complaints00:02
+MrHairgreaserizen: do you have a chat log?00:02
@rizeni'm sure someone is logging it00:02
@rizeni have it on my screen right now, but 00:02
@rizenwell i guess i could paste it into nopaste00:03
+MrHairgreaseor email it00:03
+MrHairgreasei don't care00:03
PedersenMJIf anybody prefers email, mine is m.pedersen@icelus.org00:03
@rizeni guess i don't have the complete conversation00:04
@rizencuz it's off my buffer00:04
@rizeni only have the last half of it00:04
@rizenwhere he started arguing with crythias00:04
+MrHairgreasetoo bad00:04
@rizenbut it's in that nopaste url00:05
+MrHairgreasewell i guess he must be hip =)00:05
@rizenso hip he acquired his username yesterday00:05
+MrHairgreasehe must be one of those pesky slahdot readers00:07
+MrHairgreasehow did I know that?00:07
+MrHairgreaseand why...00:07
@rizenhe felt we didn't give him a warm welcome00:08
* PedersenMJ is only about halfway through the log, and just shakes his head. This guy is a trip.00:08
@rizenthe thing that really gets me is that crythias tried to appease him by donating 2000 karma to his rfe00:08
@rizenwhich brought it all the way to the front page00:08
@rizenfrom the last page00:08
@rizenand he then proceeded to argue with crythias00:09
+MrHairgreaseI'm saving some for later00:09
+MrHairgreaseI'm making a report of some embedded thingy I made for a project00:09
+MrHairgreasebeen doing that all day00:09
@rizeni've been doing support all day00:09
@rizenwe had something like 40 support requests today00:09
@rizenwhich is a lot00:09
+MrHairgreasemust be as much fun i guess00:09
@rizenyours is more fun00:10
@rizenat least for me00:10
@rizencuz at least you don't have to deal with people00:10
+MrHairgreaseditto on my side00:10
@rizeni'm bad a tthe whole people dealing thing00:10
+MrHairgreasei know00:11
+MrHairgreaseyou told me many times00:11
PedersenMJWow.... He's complaining about the "warm welcome". I dunno, I think it's been a lot of fun in here, and I just started two/three days ago.00:15
+MrHairgreaseComplaining makes the world go round00:17
+MrHairgreasenoting new00:17
PedersenMJI've dealt with his type before. He's worth reading the log, just to be able to shake your head in sympathy, and that's about *all* he's worth.00:18
+MrHairgreasei'm saving it for later this night00:19
+MrHairgreasebut I'm curious00:19
PedersenMJNah, he ain't worth a save :)00:19
+MrHairgreaseI didn't save it00:19
+MrHairgreaseI just keep my browser window open00:20
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+perlDreamercheck this out00:35
+perlDreamerI actually had work to do today00:35
+perlDreamerIt took 40 minutes00:35
+MrHairgreaseyou must be tired =)00:35
@rizenyeah, you better rest up00:36
+perlDreameryeah, I'll relax by doing some WebGUI hacking00:36
+MrHairgreaseyou must be in the twilight zone00:36
+perlDreamerI'm salaried00:36
+perlDreamerthey pay me the same one way or the other00:36
+perlDreamerhow about if we talk about nesting macro bugs for a little bit?00:37
@rizenwho is we00:38
+perlDreameryou and me :)00:38
+perlDreamerand anyone else00:38
* MrHairgrease ducks00:39
+perlDreamerbased on user input (like the company name in Tavis's bug) or type of output returned (Klaus's bug) Macros won't nest00:39
+perlDreamerI used to think that a better parser would fix it00:39
+perlDreamerbut I don't think that anymore00:39
+perlDreamerso we either need to live with the fact that not all macros will parse, or find a safe way to nest them.00:40
@rizenmacros won't nest if they have quotes in them00:40
@rizenthat's the jist of this right?00:40
@rizenif the output contains quote00:40
+perlDreamercommas are a problem, too00:40
+perlDreamerbut yeah, there are "illegal" characters00:40
@rizeni'm fine with it just the way it is00:41
@rizenbut assuming that  you actually want to find a solution for this00:41
@rizenwe can brainstorm00:41
PedersenMJSimple fix? Why not have the macro output the html entity (&quot;) and the one for comma?00:41
@rizencuz i can't00:41
@rizenin most cases you actually want the real character00:41
@rizenfor example00:42
@rizenif it's outputing a link00:42
@rizen<a href=&quot;url&quot;>Link</a>00:42
@rizenwon't work00:42
PedersenMJSee, like I said, simple fix. And the simplistic fix is the borked one, of course :)00:42
@rizeni have 2 possible solutions00:43
@rizenand you may have others00:43
@rizenwell i should say, i have an unlimited number of solutions based upon the same ideas00:43
+perlDreamerthe only thing I can thing of is pretty extreme00:43
+perlDreamerwhat have you got?00:43
@rizen^Macro(); outputs normal00:44
@rizenbut #Macro(); escapes it's output00:44
@rizenor ^Macro("escape", other params); escapes outpute00:44
@rizenor ^Macro[params]; escapes output00:45
+perlDreameractually, that's close to my idea00:45
+perlDreamerusing a better internal separator00:45
@rizenyeah, but mine is backward compatible00:45
@rizenand yours isn't00:45
@rizeni'm adding new options00:46
@rizenyou're replacing something existing00:46
+perlDreamerit could be done in addition to the current setup00:46
+perlDreamerescaping and non-escaping00:46
+perlDreamerwith the non-escaping being deprecated00:47
@rizeni must be missing something...could you print out what yours would do00:47
@rizenfull example00:47
+perlDreamer^Macro("one","two") is our current macro function00:47
+perlDreamerit may nest, it may not00:47
+perlDreamer^Macro([one],[two]) is our new macro function which is guaranteed to work00:48
+perlDreamerMacro.pm will have to autodetect which one it is handling and do the right thing to parse00:48
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@rizeni disagree, but continue00:48
+perlDreamerwith safe delimiters, the parsing of nested content will always work00:49
+perlDreamerwhat's the disagree part?00:49
@rizeni don't see how your way helps anything00:49
@rizenit just replaces one problem with another00:49
@rizenwhat if the content contains [ ]00:49
+perlDreamerthe delimiter is actually the sequence ],[00:49
@rizeni'll grant you that it's unlikely that ],[ will be in content00:50
@rizenbut it might be00:50
@rizenif we're doing ANYTHING00:50
@rizenwe're going to fix EVERYTHING00:50
@rizenno matter what we do00:50
@rizenwe need to do escaping00:50
@rizentherefore, why change what the user already expects to be able to do00:51
@rizeni mean...we can do your way if you're really set on it00:51
@rizenbut we still have to do escaping00:51
+perlDreamerI agree00:51
@rizenand now all the sudden we have to teach the users that they should be using this new format00:52
@rizenwhere with my way00:52
@preaction-mif a macro is an argument to a macro, encase the output in "" and escape. does Macro.pm know when a sub-macro is being called?00:52
@rizenwe only teach them something00:52
@rizenwhen escaping is a problem00:52
+perlDreameris it safe to always escape, and then unescape just before exiting Macro::process?00:52
@rizenyes/no, no00:52
@rizenthe answer to your first question is yes and no00:53
@rizenand your second is no00:53
@rizenthe amount of content coming out of the macro could be huge00:53
@rizentherefore always escaping00:53
@rizenand unescaping00:53
@rizencould be a performance problem00:53
@rizenthink of the AdminBar macro for example00:53
+perlDreameroh yeah00:53
@rizenall the javascript and stuff00:54
@rizenthat it outputs00:54
+perlDreamermacros suck00:54
@rizenmacros do suck00:54
@rizenbut that's also why they're powerfule00:54
+perlDreameryou can do a lot with a low pressure region00:54
+perlDreamerwait a minute00:55
+perlDreamerthe things that we most need to escape are the most likely to not be escapable00:55
@rizenmeans escape00:55
+perlDreamerYou can never escape the LoginToggle macro00:55
+perlDreamerso it can't ever be nested00:56
@rizenwas someone trying to nest that?00:56
@rizenfor what?00:56
@rizenwhy would you ever nest it?00:56
+perlDreamerI'm pulling up the bug now00:56
@rizenthe problem is that people suck00:56
@rizennot macros00:56
+perlDreamerMaybe I'll go and document which macros can nest and which ones can't00:57
@rizenok conversation over00:57
+perlDreamerthat means that whoever is writing your CM book just got some free content00:57
@rizenbecause this is not a programming language00:57
@rizenit's called the GroupText macro00:57
+perlDreamerwe need a table which says which ones can nest and which can't00:57
@rizennot the GroupHtmlBlob macro00:57
@rizenno we don't00:57
@rizenpeople just need to not be idiots00:57
@rizenif it outputs HTML00:57
@rizenit can't be used in nesting00:58
+perlDreamerif people were not idiots, you wouldn't need to write books00:58
+perlDreamerbut I agree with you00:58
@khennnot true00:58
@khenneven people who are not idiots don't read books =p00:59
+perlDreameryeah, people like us read source code00:59
+perlDreamerrizen: is it okay to close the nesting bugs once I get the docs committed?01:02
@rizenyes...just tell them they aren't bugs01:02
@rizenand close them01:03
+perlDreamerI'll do the docs next.01:07
@rizeni suck01:39
@rizenso much01:39
@rizenthat i'm going to suck all of you down with me01:39
+perlDreamerwelcome to the bottom01:39
+perlDreamerwhat did you do?01:39
@rizenjust exist01:40
@rizeni'm going to have to work all night on support tonight01:40
+perlDreamerlots of login requests?01:41
@rizeni can't talk about it01:41
@rizenjust bitching01:41
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@rizenprint {$chalkboard} "I will not pull my sister's hair." for (1.100);02:40
@rizenprint {$chalkboard} "I will not pull my sister's hair." for (1..100);02:40
+perlDreamerthat's better02:40
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PedersenMJSo, since the MOTD I've been seeing hasn't reminded me yet, and I haven't remembered yet (and am still too lazy to hit Google), I have to ask how to register my IRC nick?05:10
+crythiasmsg nickserv help05:12
PedersenMJthank you. Now, we find out how well psi works as an irc client...05:14
PedersenMJ/msg nickserv help05:14
PedersenMJFigures. Need to use a real one. WIll do it later then :)05:14
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PedersenMJHey, JT, can I change my nick to iPhoneGuy and start demanding features? :)05:20
+crythias /kick pedersenmj05:20
@rizeniphoneguy was worse to crythias than to me05:21
PedersenMJActually, after I get these first few themes squared away, I might look into trying to package webgui into something easy to install and configure. Quite frankly, it's an absolute bear to do right now.05:21
@rizenso i think that you'd better watch out what you do05:22
@rizenhave you tried the wre?05:22
PedersenMJWhen I read chat logs, I rarely see the names. Sorry about that crythias.05:22
@rizeni can usually install wre + webgui in about 10 minutes05:22
PedersenMJNo, but only one reason I haven't: I run Debian.05:22
@rizenTHere's a debian version of wre05:23
PedersenMJReally? Has it always been there?05:23
@rizensnapcount maintains it05:23
PedersenMJSee, I'm so used to prepackaged always being "rpm or nothing"05:23
@rizenit's not an official distro yet05:23
@rizenbut starting with WRE 0.805:24
@rizendebian and ubuntu will have supported wre05:24
PedersenMJOkay, that's cool. That might actually be enough for me, then. I might just finish these themes, and get them into an actual package. After that, drop my current install entirely, and go with wre.05:25
PedersenMJUbuntu might just be the best thing to ever happen to Debian. Enough people are making packages for it, and most of them are compatible with Debian. Of course, I might just switch to Ubuntu soon, too.05:26
Radix-wrkI've always been a debian person myself, but I have to say Ubuntu is very nice for a desktop machine :)05:27
PedersenMJWell, I wasn't always a Debian person. Started off with RedHat 5.2, actually. A work friend raved on and on about Debian, so I tried it, and haven't looked back (that was at 2.1, btw).05:28
Radix-wrkI started with slackware 1.1 :)05:29
Radix-wrkor 1.2 or something.. came on heaps of floppies05:29
Radix-wrkand I couldn't compile my own kernel - had to get my friend to compile an optimised one for me as he had 8MB ram, twice as much as I did ;)05:30
PedersenMJOh yeah, I *did* install slackware first. For a fledgling ISP, actually. Not that I did a good job, but I *did* install it for them. But from CD.05:30
PedersenMJSometime later, I got my hands on a 386/sx16 w/8M of ram. Downloaded all the floppies, and installed it, just so I could say I did it. And this is the first time in about 8 years that I've said it :)05:31
Radix-wrkI went slackware, redhat, mandrake, debian and now debian/ubuntu really :)05:32
@rizenok, informal quick poll05:32
@rizenshow of hands, who's here?05:32
PedersenMJDidn't really do much with slackware, though I used it once or twice. Went to RedHat, then Debian. Nothing else has pulled me away from Debian, yet.05:32
Radix-wrkcrythias, one rfe that could really use some karma is http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/search-asset-returns-urls05:32
* PedersenMJ shows his hand.05:32
* Radix-wrk puts up his hand.05:32
@rizencrythias, are you here?05:33
@rizenyou were05:33
@rizeni guess it's just us three05:33
@rizenok...my poll is this05:33
@rizenwhat do you think about the idea of splitting up plainblack.com and webgui.org05:33
@rizenplainblack.com would be all the commercial stuff05:33
@rizenwebgui.org woudl be the community stuff05:34
Radix-wrkHmm.. not a bad idea actually05:34
+crythiascan we advert on webgui.org?05:34
@rizenwhat do you mean advert?05:34
@rizenadvertise what?05:35
PedersenMJIf you do it, then you need to make sure that pretty well every single page on webgui.org says "Sponsored by plainblack.com" or somesuch.05:35
Radix-wrkDefinitely have PB advertising and links on webgui - (linking to PB's custom development services)05:35
@rizencrythias, is that what you meant?05:36
@rizenor did you mean other people advertising?05:36
@rizenor did you mean something else?05:36
@rizenand do you mean in banner form?05:36
@rizenor do you mean like in message board posts05:36
+crythiasJust thinking out loud. If you separate Webgui.org from plainblack.com, it could be more available to share the wealth of all competitors for webgui hosting, etc. and pb.com could still "collect" money for advertising from other competitors.05:36
+crythiasmaybe banner form.05:37
@rizenso we could sell advertising to other webgui hosters, designers, programmers, etc?05:37
+crythiasdon't like it in message board posts UNLESS it's honest communication about providers of WebGUI services, but only in that thread.05:37
+crythiasrizen: yes.05:38
@rizeni don't see why we couldn't do that05:38
@rizenyeah, i really don't like adverts in forums either05:38
Radix-wrkYou could also take more advantage of some url's: wiki.webgui.org, dev.webgui.org, api.webgui.org, cvs.webgui.org05:38
@rizenthey just distract from the "meat" of the thread05:38
@rizenwe can already take advantage of that05:38
@rizenand do05:38
Radix-wrkSounds good to me05:38
Radix-wrkafk - lunchtime05:39
@rizeni wish there was some way to screw around with radix while he is away05:44
@rizensort of like when you're playing cards with someone05:45
@rizenand they get up to get a drink05:45
@rizenyou can switch their cards05:45
@rizenor steal some chips05:45
@rizensomething like that05:45
PedersenMJWell... There's got to be some good irc practical jokes.05:45
@rizeni wish i could change his nick05:46
@rizenthat would be cool05:46
@rizenlike /othernick radix-wrk radix-likes-boys05:47
@rizenthat would be cool05:47
PedersenMJGotta set up your own irc server for that, but I'm sure you could then.05:47
PedersenMJHey, JT, I'm pondering buying some more docs. Specifically, I'd like to see more on how to build/manage/package up templates. Anything in particular you could point me to, rather than just the online WDR?05:49
@rizentoward the end of february05:50
@rizenthere will be a book coming out on that05:50
@rizen300+ pages05:51
@rizenwe have 3 of those books05:51
PedersenMJAny way to preorder it?05:51
@rizenbeyond that05:51
@rizenthere isn't anything05:51
@rizenno...cuz we haven't officially announced them yet05:51
PedersenMJDang. Well, get cracking on an announcement then :)05:51
@rizeni want them completely written and in the editing phase before we do that05:52
PedersenMJThat will be my RFE for tonight: An announcement of upcoming books so that I can preorder them. 05:52
@rizenthat particular book should be completely written in the next two weeks05:53
@rizenthe goal is January 3005:53
PedersenMJWorking on understanding enough of the "navigation" section of webgui to incorporate it into the burned theme.05:55
@rizenyou could just include a generic nav06:01
@rizenand then people can put in whatever they want06:01
@rizencuz they probably will anyway06:01
PedersenMJWait... I can use an ^AssetProxy() to point to a navigation control, yes?06:01
PedersenMJLet me look this over, I think I might have just finished the theme, except for packaging.06:02
PedersenMJOkay, not quite just finished, I've also got some CSS to work on, but it's getting there.06:02
@rizengood work06:02
@rizennot bad for your first time06:02
@rizengetting together in a week06:03
PedersenMJActually, it'll have been three days, including the first day spent picking out themes.06:06
PedersenMJSweet. Just a few more minor tweaks (namely, making this into the style for my site, as opposed to just one page), and the work is all done.06:18
PedersenMJHmmm... Is there an easy way to say to all Page Layouts in a folder that they should take a specific style?06:20
@rizenbut i'm not going to tell you06:21
@rizenthey don't call me a jackass for nothing06:21
@rizengo to your home page. click on the class icon. select "edit branch". it's pretty self explainatory from there.06:22
PedersenMJOh man... I was actually looking to buy a per inicident support to get the answer. Is there a way to do so? Didn't find it on plainblack.com in the past two minutes.06:23
@rizenthere is but we don't advertise it06:23
@rizencuz we don't like it when people use it06:24
@rizenwe only offer it in certain situations06:24
PedersenMJAh, okay. Feels kind of weird. I feel like I'm taking advantage of you, and am trying to find ways to actually pay for that (well, that I can afford, to, as I just dropped way too much into vehicle maintenance).06:25
@rizenas i said06:25
@rizenpay me by contributing to the community06:25
@rizenmake a bunch of these templates into pacakges that other people can use06:25
PedersenMJThat you'll have.06:25
PedersenMJThat's the application of the "Burned" theme.06:26
PedersenMJDefault site for webgui, of course.06:26
@rizenlooks like shit06:27
@rizenjust kidding06:27
@rizenhowever, your login box hangs off the side06:27
@rizenin firefox06:27
@rizendon't know about ie06:27
PedersenMJActually, it's not a very good theme for the default website, I know that.06:28
PedersenMJWeird, I'm running ff myself, and it's fitting inside. Which version of FF you using? I'm still on 1.5. And on Linux.06:28
@rizen2.0 on mac06:28
PedersenMJI have a mac with ff 2.0 at work, I'll dig into it tomorrow.06:28
PedersenMJDefinitely a sucky theme for the webgui site. For my desires for that site, it'll be good, though.06:29
PedersenMJNow, to learn how to make the package itself.06:29
PedersenMJHey, JT? Small error (and can be submitted as bug if you wish): http://www.plainblack.com/support/clients says 1908 for WDR expiration.06:34
@rizenits' a;lready been submitted06:34
@rizenas a bug06:34
Radix-wrkPedersenMJ, your nochara.org site doesn't seem to display at all for me now06:58
Radix-wrkcomes up as a white background with no style at all :)06:59
PedersenMJMy style is gone.06:59
@rizenhe put in a special exclusion just for you06:59
PedersenMJpoof. gone. destroyed.06:59
@rizenif $radix then $radix->screw;06:59
@rizenwhat do you mean destroyed?07:00
Radix-wrkreminds me of the windows 95 code - http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article09-11907:01
PedersenMJIn the asset manager, I went to the folder above my templates, and did a "duplicate", to make sure I didn't lose anything. Didn't check to make sure that worked. Made a package out of the original. Exported package. Deleted original. Tried to import package. Failed. Duplicate has no data in it at all. Destroyed.07:01
Radix-wrkSo go to your trash and undelete07:02
@rizenit's in your trash07:02
@rizenalso...duplicate duplicates single assets07:02
@rizennot entire trees07:02
PedersenMJWell, the data might be ... Okay, how much of a moron am I about to feel like?07:02
@rizenadmin console > trash07:02
@rizenclick restore07:02
@rizenyou're all good07:02
Radix-wrkHmm.. why doesn't duplicate do whole trees?07:02
@rizencuz that would be dangerous07:03
@rizenthink about on plainblack.com for example07:03
PedersenMJYep, complete moron. Thank god for trash bins :)07:03
PedersenMJIt's back in place.07:03
@rizenif i clicked duplicate on the "support" tab07:03
@rizenthere's about 500 pages07:03
@rizenand 70,000 board posts07:03
Radix-wrkSo check # of items, if more than X then warn user07:03
@rizenso by clicking duplicate07:03
@rizeni just created another 70500 assets07:03
@rizenand i did that accidentally07:03
@rizenit would take a long time07:03
@rizenand it could use a lot of resources07:04
@rizenthat's what packages are for07:04
@rizenif you want to dup an entire tree07:04
@rizenyou create a package07:04
@rizenand then deploy the package07:04
@rizenit will recurse the tree07:04
@rizentrust me07:04
@rizenpeople don't read warnings07:05
@rizenthey just click "OK"07:05
@rizenif people actually read warnings there wouldn't be a need for trash07:05
* PedersenMJ raises his hand, and is guilty of that behavior.07:05
@rizenit's better to make them do something explicitly07:06
@rizenand that's where packages come into play07:06
Radix-wrkfair enough07:06
PedersenMJNow, without setting up another instance of webgui, what's the proper way to test that I managed to export that style correctly? I've got burned.wgpkg sitting in a folder here.07:07
@rizenanytime you need an "extra" instance07:07
@rizenthere it is07:07
PedersenMJSweet! Using it now.07:07
Radix-wrkI've never created a package myself actually. should play with it sometime07:07
Radix-wrkit doesn't harm the existing setup at all does it07:07
@rizenwhat do you mean?07:08
@rizenharm what?07:08
Radix-wrkdoesn't remove anything07:08
@rizenpackages create things07:08
@rizenthey don't remove things07:08
Radix-wrkjust checking that's all, will try it out on our production site :)07:09
Radix-wrkcan you package items that are still under a version tag?07:09
@rizenpackages are just assets07:11
Radix-wrkSo how do you create one?  I can see browse/import, but no create option07:11
@rizenthe meta tab of any asset07:11
Radix-wrkcool, ta07:12
Radix-wrkLast question - when do the demo sites get deleted?  At a scheduled time or when they hit 24 hours duration?07:13
PedersenMJPackage works. Now to upload it.07:14
@rizencreation time + 24 hours07:14
Radix-wrkneat - great work07:15
Radix-wrkrizen, cool, good to know :)07:15
@rizenverty good07:15
Radix-wrkPedersenMJ, You just need to sort out the div on that login box07:15
PedersenMJPretty simple once I got started. Did hit *one* snag with the demo site, though, and that's that style sheet.07:15
Radix-wrkit's almost half way down the page and off the edge on mine07:15
Radix-wrkshould prolly just incorporate it under the menu or something07:16
PedersenMJI had an absolute url for the burned2.css, and needed to move it under the proper location for the demo site.07:16
PedersenMJYeah, I'll definitely fix that login box issue tomorrow night. Now that I know the rest of the process, it's pretty simple.07:16
Radix-wrkAhh.. the admin box div is absolute it looks like07:16
@rizenyou didn't do it right then07:17
@rizenyou should use the ^/;burned2.css07:17
@rizenthat way it auto adjusts07:17
PedersenMJAha! A macro I didn't yet read/learn about. Will fix *that* right now.07:17
PedersenMJOkay, I'll fix the login box issue tomorrow night, and have already fixed the url for the css. After that, it looks like I'll be able to post this one to a contrib section.07:19
PedersenMJThis one isn't likely to be very popular, though, as it's more of a dark/broody feeling. The others I've chosen to work on should be much better received.07:20
@rizenyou'd be suprised07:20
@rizenthere are lots of users out there07:20
Radix-wrkI was about to say the same thing07:20
@rizenthey all have different needs07:20
Radix-wrkthere's many dark/broody people out there who'd "love" that kind of theme I'm sure ;)07:21
PedersenMJMost likely, now that you two put it that way.07:21
PedersenMJSo, when I *do* get this right, where do I go to do the upload? Don't see any obvious locations at plainblack.com. Or is that the wrong place?07:22
@rizenthe contribs section on plainblack.com07:23
PedersenMJAha! It's under support. Found it. Only 4 packages in there? That's *got* to be fixed.07:23
Radix-wrkAhh, neat.. someone made a package based on my google sitemap howto :)07:25
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PedersenMJI think that, for a while, I'm going to make myself a goal of one new package every two weeks (once I get through these 1st three anyway).07:26
@rizenthat would be awesome07:26
Radix-wrkIf I get some time spare I'll give you a hand :)07:26
PedersenMJCool. Hey, if you'll simply put up with me spamming you guys with my latest theme of the moment, that's a lot of help right there.07:27
Radix-wrkspam away :)07:27
PedersenMJI'm really enjoying it. It's a fairly easy process to convert existing code into a webgui template, it really is. Just somewhat time consuming to tweak it.07:28
@rizennow we just need another 500 people like you07:28
PedersenMJBut even that can be fun.07:28
@rizenand our community will rock07:28
Radix-wrkyup - hence why we told you to figure it out yourself.. it's not that hard, just fiddly :)07:28
@rizennow you just need to tell the rest of the world how easy it is07:29
@rizenfor some reason some people think it's hard07:29
PedersenMJYou did *not* tell me to figure it out myself. You two answered all of my questions quickly, and without giving me a hard time about it.07:29
@rizendamn it07:30
@rizeni meant to give you a hard time07:30
@rizeni tried to07:30
PedersenMJWell, JT, I'll tell you *why* they think it's hard. 1: Creating a new template isn't well documented. It's documented in WDR, but you have to pay for that. I don't mind paying, but others do.07:30
@rizenyeah well07:31
PedersenMJ2: What's in WDR does have some errors. I've got the list, and am going to update my bug report for it.07:31
@rizenwe're a business07:31
Radix-wrkrizen told you not to pay him to do it, and instead to work it out yourself.  I chimed in that it wasn't that hard, and a good experience07:31
@rizen2: excellent07:31
PedersenMJLike I said, I don't mind paying for it. You *are* a business. While it'd be better for my wallet if you weren't, it wouldn't be better for me overall. I'd still be trying to find the right tool for the job.07:32
@rizen1: i hate that arguement....it's just people being cheap, we're not a charity07:32
@rizenwhat people don't understand is that webgui is as good as it is because we charge for stuff around webgui...that's what enables us to work on it full time07:32
@rizenunlike a lot of other open source gigs07:33
PedersenMJWell, Radix, he *did* say he could do it for about $400, and I wanted to learn it for me.07:33
@rizenwhere the guy is working as his day job and also open source07:33
PedersenMJNah, people are inherently cheap. Some programs, that's fine. Others, though... You need somebody doing full time work. WebGUI makes an excellent case for that. And selling access to the docs? I'm *way* okay with that. I wish I could have figured it out without them, but will accept that I'm not a computing god :)07:35
@rizenman...if i could make webgui so intuitive that you didn't need any docs07:35
@rizeni'd love that07:35
@rizenthat would be the coolest thing ever07:35
PedersenMJExcept it would completely suck and kill your business.07:36
Radix-wrkDoing custom styles isn't the kind of work that PB staff should be doing though really - if they wrote styles for people all day long they might as well be web designers. ;)07:36
@rizenit wouldn't kill our business at all07:36
@rizenit would improve our business 10 fold07:37
@rizenfor one, we wouldn't have to spend the hundreds of hours we do writing/updating docs and videos07:37
@rizenfor another, the money we charge on docs07:37
@rizenis just to cover the cost of writing them07:37
@rizenwe don't make any money on them07:37
@rizenour money comes from support, hosting, and custom dev07:38
PedersenMJHeh... Lessee, I've put about 6 hours into the style so far. I expect to only need about 1 to 2 more to fix that login box issue. And this is the first time I've ever done this. I'd expect that PB staff would need much less, like 2 to 3. $125/hour? Sounds about right for consulting.07:38
PedersenMJDo you guys do actual training classes too? If I manage to make this happen at work, they might be looking to do some training, wherein they get face time with somebody from 6th Ave and somebody from PB. If so, what are ballpark estimates for training?07:39
@rizen$1600 per day07:40
@rizenwhich is pretty much industry standard for on-site training07:40
PedersenMJThat's not too bad, really.07:40
Radix-wrkIMHO, the biggest detractor with webgui to a new client/company is the entry requirements - both hardware/software, but also the initial getting started - getting head around templates, doing that initial layout.  If that were easier it'd mean more people would get up to speed quicker and start working on the real nitty gritty, like integration with existing systems, custom wobjects, etc07:40
@rizenand we don't put a limit on number of students07:40
Radix-wrkthere's the webgui primer also07:40
@rizenwell once PedersenMJ gets done building all these styles07:41
@rizenpeople won't have to worry about that naymore?07:41
Radix-wrkrizen: that's what I was thinking too :)07:41
Radix-wrkSo.. get to work PedersenMJ! :)07:41
PedersenMJWell, in the next two weeks, there'll be 3, I think. After that, I'll slow down and do 1 every two weeks. Heck, I'll just go to www.oswd.org and pick the next one in line :)07:42
@rizenwe're going to be sponsoring a contest in the spring07:42
@rizenfor brand new custom styles07:42
@rizenas packages07:42
Radix-wrkneat - that'd be cool07:42
PedersenMJI'd try to enter, but brand new rules me out. I can convert existing, but my graphics, colors, etc, suck.07:43
@rizenit wouldn't be fair if we let people who take other people's designs into the contest with people who are creating custom works07:43
PedersenMJI'm not asking to be able to enter, don't worry.07:44
@rizensorry...i was just explaining...not arguing07:44
PedersenMJMy fun is more in the conversion. I'm not a web dev, not at all. My web site design skills suck ass through a straw :)07:45
@rizenif you do good work though, you'll get plenty of karma07:45
@rizenalso...you might even get a people behind webgui nomination07:45
PedersenMJNah, no rewards of that sort, please. I'm not doing it for that. I'm doing it for two reasons:07:45
PedersenMJ1: I can.07:45
@rizennot up to me07:46
PedersenMJ2: My way of saying thanks for the work you've done, and are doing, that I am directly benefiting from.07:46
@rizenit's up to our community manager07:46
PedersenMJHey, just found template number 4, I think: <