WebGUI irc logs from: 2009-03.log

--- Log opened Sun Mar 01 00:00:01 2009
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+perlDreamer	preaction: format: query, nature: codeReview: response: availability	00:26
@preaction	format: response; re: codeReview; content: I am currently available, ask forth your question	00:26
+perlDreamer	http://webgui.pastebin.com/m64f95d46	00:28
+perlDreamer	It's just the first pass, but all feedback is appreciated.	00:29
@preaction	i would try to break out as much JS as possible into a seperate .js file (preferably under yui-webgui)	00:29
+perlDreamer	with AJAXI18n, there's no reason the whole thing can't be a separate JS file	00:30
@preaction	so then you just call something like "var ah = new WebGUI.AssetHistory();"	00:30
@preaction	yeah, that too	00:30
@preaction	it makes it more of an application, and far more useful	00:30
@preaction	so even if the Perl code changes completely, the JS can be used later (in the new admin console)	00:31
+perlDreamer	"new" admin console?	00:31
@preaction	we've been talking about it at the WUC since 7.5	00:31
@preaction	even showed screenshots	00:31
* perlDreamer is drawing a blank. Do you have a URL for video/presentation?		00:33
@preaction	it was one of JT's keynotes	00:34
@preaction	last year's keynote, i believe	00:34
@preaction	otherwise, if i'm mistaken, then there will eventually be a new admin interface	00:34
+perlDreamer	aside from getting chocolate in the peanut butter, any other suggestions?	00:36
@preaction	you might want to change www_manage to www_view instead, just for consistency's sake	00:37
@preaction	and run it through perltidy	00:37
@preaction	otherwise, looks great	00:38
+perlDreamer	I was thinking it returned too much data, from the getHistoryAsJson	00:38
+perlDreamer	and some date formatting	00:39
@preaction	not really. i would want more data personally, like exactly what changed (we don't really keep records of that though)	00:39
+perlDreamer	no, just the actionTaken set of options	00:39
@preaction	though it would be possible to do a compare of the available revisions in the future if someone wants that feature	00:40
@preaction	i like that it exposes this feature we've always had and nobody knew about	00:40
@preaction	it might stir some good ideas in the community	00:40
+perlDreamer	yeah, I've been telling people about it for a while, but it's hard for the average admin to use.	00:40
@preaction	oh. you should add a tab to the admin console about this. you should also add a different privilege group to the Settings page	00:41
@preaction	the "12" magic number shouldn't be used	00:41
@preaction	though that's only my opinion, which is subject to overrule	00:42
+perlDreamer	I think you're right. I used 12 as a placeholder for lack of anything better.	00:42
+perlDreamer	What do you think about a date range search option?	00:42
@preaction	how much data really gets returned? if it's more than 50 rows, then probably yes	00:43
@preaction	i hate date range searches though, maybe let the user input a date and search +/- 5 days? or 7 days? or something like that	00:43
@preaction	well, that's just an idea. not sure i like that idea either	00:44
+perlDreamer	it only returns 50 rows, but it seems wasteful to send the whole user table when only the username is used	00:44
@preaction	then get: assetHistory.*,users.username <-	00:45
@preaction	instead of *	00:45
+perlDreamer	that's easier than typing all the columns by hand :)	00:45
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perlDreamer1	one last question, preaction. Do you think it's RFE-able for 7.7, or should I just put it into the Bazaar?	00:55
@preaction	i think it's RFE-able for 7.7 myself	00:55
perlDreamer1	I'll submit an RFE w/patch after I get all the tidying up done on it.	00:56
perlDreamer1	thanks, preaction!	00:57
perlDreamer1	time for me to crawl up into the attic :/	00:57
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CIA-46	WebGUI: translation * r9688 /translations/Russian/ (78 files in 2 dirs): Update from translation server	20:30
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xdanger	can the commit approval workflow be changed per group or per user somehow?	01:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: translation * r9689 /translations/Russian/ (37 files in 2 dirs): Update from translation server	01:57
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elnino	hi! I think somewhere along the lines, the paypal payment module is scheduled for some release, anyone privy to when that may be?	02:16
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elnino	hi. wondering if there is any word on the paypal module, I thought it was scheduled for 7.7, is that still correct?	05:19
@preaction	elnino: as far as i know, yes	06:37
elnino	HI!	06:38
elnino	And that is June or something right?	06:38
elnino	preaction, if I start writing one, is there anyone that would be willing to review my work?	06:39
elnino	maybe we can get it in sooner?	06:40
@preaction	i believe martin kamerbeek is writing one right now, you might want to coordinate with him using the dev mailing list	06:40
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elnino	ok. Thanks preaction. what is his name here?	06:51
@preaction	MrHairgrease	06:52
elnino	oh that's right.	06:53
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CIA-46	WebGUI: yung * r9690 /WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): added edit link to matrix listing view	12:25
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ryuu_ro	Hi all	14:42
+BartJol	not him	14:42
+BartJol	:)	14:42
ryuu_ro	i have this form which executes a query on some tables	14:42
ryuu_ro	I process the form with $sessin->form->process	14:43
ryuu_ro	but when I enter 0 in my form field the form var doesn't get processed	14:43
ryuu_ro	also form->param doesn't do the trick	14:44
ryuu_ro	is this a bug?	14:44
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+BartJol	ryuu_ro: if you copied it, $sessin->form->process doesn't seem spelled right	15:52
ryuu_ro	yeah that's just a typo	15:53
+BartJol	just making sure	15:53
ryuu_ro	I understand why it isn't being processed but I don't think that it shouldn't	15:53
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SDuensin	Greetings.	17:11
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BartJo1	morning scott	17:29
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xdanger	can the commit approval workflow be changed per group or per user somehow?	17:35
BartJo1	it should be possible in 7.6	17:38
BartJo1	evry user has a version tag workflow in the profile	17:39
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+perlmonkey2	I want to add the ability to do site wide default question group definition editing. This would not be Survey specific, but system wide. So that editing the question groups would change them for the site. This is just for the pre-defined multiple choice question groups. Anyone have an idea how to go about this? Should it be an editor in the Admin Console? An editor on each survey instance?	18:14
+perlDreamer	If it's Survey specific, I'd say a link on each Survey.	18:20
+perlDreamer	that way, anyone who can edit a survey can get to it	18:20
+perlDreamer	kind of like the Style Wizard for templates.	18:20
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+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: well it is more to be site wide. To give CM's a place to alter the default question types.	18:41
+perlmonkey2	The ones I put in there were pretty specific to the US and to Sociology.	18:42
+perlDreamer	the Admin Console keeps growing, so if it's something just to tweak 1 asset, I still think it belongs in the Asset.	18:42
+perlDreamer	of course, /me is a strongly opinionated IRC squatter, so what does he know?	18:46
BartJo1	perlDreamer: you have a bed in the IRC channel?	18:50
+perlDreamer	I sleep on that bench over there	18:51
BartJo1	ah	18:51
rizen_	put it into the survey	18:51
BartJo1	didn't loom that way yet	18:52
rizen_	make it a menu option	18:52
rizen_	and just don't link it to a specific asset id	18:52
rizen_	and on the page, state that these are global question group types	18:52
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+perlmonkey2	rizen: sounds groovy.	18:56
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+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: drove through West Oklahoma, the Panhandle of Texas, and East New Mexico last week. Gigawatts of wind farms through that way. Just whole horizons full of the things, absolutely beautiful. And now I've got the wind turbine bug again in a bad way. Thinking of going against personal policy and just buying a welder brand new.	18:59
+perlDreamer	sometimes, sacrifices must be made in the name of progress.	18:59
+perlDreamer	maybe welders hold their value so well that they don't drop in price quickly over time	19:00
+perlDreamer	I wish the Stock Market was that way...	19:00
+perlmonkey2	Yeah, 13 year lows and dropping.	19:00
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9691 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/upgrade_7.6.14-7.7.0.pl: Add column for approval workflow.	19:01
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9692 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (3 files in 3 dirs):	19:01
CIA-46	WebGUI: Add methods for creating and getting date specific folders below the Archive for	19:01
CIA-46	WebGUI: holding stories. With tests.	19:01
CIA-46	WebGUI: Code for the approval workflow for stories.	19:01
+perlmonkey2	perlDreamer: heh, maybe instead of holding gold, people should hold welders. As the good ones really don't seem to lose much value.	19:01
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+perlDreamer	rizen: Kathy got a letter from OHSU.	19:26
+perlDreamer	She's on the alternates list this year	19:26
+perlDreamer	so there's a chance she may get in	19:26
@rizen	seet	19:28
@rizen	sweet	19:28
@rizen	tell her congrats for me	19:28
+perlDreamer	I will	19:28
deafferret	PhD in Perl?	19:29
+perlDreamer	certified nurse/midwife	19:29
deafferret	w/ a Perl specialty?	19:29
+perlDreamer	no, the program is deficient that way.	19:30
+perlDreamer	I have her signed up for special tutoring	19:30
deafferret	nurse! zero-width negative look-behind assertion! stat!	19:31
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9693 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/_NewAsset.skeleton: Fix POD/whitespace issues.	20:03
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+perlDreamer	it's scary when you can start writing phrases with 22 characters in them, give or take a character	21:31
+perlDreamer	deafferret, I'm thinking of going for a run. What are you eating today?	21:37
@preaction	i'll eat chicken parmesan for him	21:40
@preaction	heavy on the parmesan	21:40
+perlDreamer	that sounds like at least a medium run	21:43
* perlmonkey2 thanks WebGUI for tabforms.		21:57
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+perlDreamer	Mech422Home: howdy :)	22:17
Mech422Home	hi :-)	22:17
Mech422Home	Uggh - I hate apache	22:18
+perlDreamer	do you like some other server better?	22:20
Mech422Home	nginx looks promising	22:22
Mech422Home	apache is just too 'kitchen sink' - too many knobs, too much to go wrong	22:22
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SynQ	hi there	22:27
SynQ	is github broken?	22:29
+perlDreamer	it would appear so.	22:29
+perlDreamer	that's what they get for writing it in ruby	22:30
SynQ	hmm	22:32
SynQ	that is what I dreaded by putting the WebGUI repository in a 3th party's hands	22:32
SynQ	we had that with sf.net	22:32
SynQ	now we are going to get it with github.com	22:33
+perlDreamer	since it's git, it's only really a problem when you want to do a pull from github.com	22:33
+perlDreamer	commits are fine	22:33
SynQ	I am not sure I think that makes it more workable	22:34
SynQ	it's always a problem when you want to collaborate	22:34
SynQ	for instance	22:34
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SynQ	I want to see if JT has done any work on wre in the git repo	22:34
SynQ	but I cant	22:34
SynQ	since github.com is offline	22:34
SynQ	git.webgui.org would be a far better place	22:35
SynQ	since that would be under direct control of plainblack	22:35
@rizen	i haven't yet	22:35
SynQ	ah	22:35
SynQ	:)	22:35
SynQ	hi	22:35
@rizen	we're sticking with svn for wre until 1.0 comes out	22:35
@rizen	which should be this week	22:35
@rizen	or next	22:35
SynQ	ok nice	22:35
@rizen	if all goes according to plan	22:36
SynQ	I wanted to verify if I indeed created a github account	22:36
SynQ	graham allready asked me	22:36
SynQ	rizen: do you develop the WRE on your personal mac or on a linux box?	22:36
SynQ	and: do you know if the wre HEAD still compiles on your systems after the changes I did?	22:37
@rizen	i do it on my mac	22:38
@rizen	and i'll be finding out shortly whether it does or not	22:38
SynQ	:)	22:38
@rizen	still trying to work through some bugs in your sources .sh files	22:38
SynQ	I have it up and running now at host003.procolix.com	22:38
SynQ	what kind of bugs?	22:38
@rizen	http://archive.cs.uu.nl/mirror/CPAN/authors/id/R/RC/RCAPUTO/POE-Component-Client-DNS-1.02.tar.gz:	22:38
@rizen	2009-03-02 11:15:36 ERROR 404: Not Found.	22:38
@rizen	tar (child): POE-Component-Client-DNS-1.02.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory	22:38
@rizen	tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now	22:38
@rizen	tar: Child returned status 2	22:38
@rizen	tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors	22:38
@rizen	mirror might be down or something	22:39
SynQ	ah	22:39
SynQ	change the MIRROR variable on top of that file	22:39
SynQ	to the cpan.org line	22:39
@rizen	well it's not the mirror itself	22:39
SynQ	that is commented in top of it	22:39
@rizen	cuz other files come down fine	22:39
SynQ	ah ok	22:39
SynQ	I had that too	22:39
@rizen	i'm just wondering if that mirror is missing some files	22:39
@rizen	or whatever	22:39
@rizen	i'm lookinginto it	22:39
SynQ	it's one of the mirrors that is not completely up to date	22:39
SynQ	the best thing would be to let CPAN do the downloading of that particular file	22:40
SynQ	I wanted to ask you if you agree on this:....	22:40
SynQ	we want to release a WRE that has exactly that set of modules that we tested and approved not newer or older ones, right?	22:40
@rizen	right	22:41
SynQ	ok	22:41
@rizen	which is why cpan can't be allowed to download anything	22:41
SynQ	that is why I created that downloadscript	22:41
@rizen	we must do it	22:41
SynQ	indeed	22:41
SynQ	but we might be able to use the CPAN module to download particular versions of perl modules from the perl mirrors	22:41
SynQ	that might solve the error-checking right away	22:42
SynQ	btw: http://host003.procolix.com	22:43
SynQ	WebGUI 7.6.13 running on WRE HEAD :)	22:43
@rizen	cool	22:43
SynQ	what I could do is tar my entire sources tree and put them in http://host003.procolix.com/uploads/somewhere.tar	22:44
SynQ	admin 123qwe	22:44
SynQ	go ahead :)	22:44
SynQ	that is not cool. This is: http://dev.anxietyonline.org.au/	22:45
SynQ	that is served by a cluster of 6 virtual machines	22:45
SynQ	2 loadbalancers LVS, 2 apache servers (modperl, modproxy) and 2 mysql servers (one in slave mode)	22:45
+perlDreamer	are you hosting that, SynQ?	22:46
SynQ	perlDreamer: no I built it	22:46
SynQ	it is running on vm's in australia	22:47
+perlDreamer	I see	22:47
SynQ	or at least by an australian based company	22:47
SynQ	I am hosting this: http://www.loopsetshop.com	22:47
Mech422Home	SynQ: Hmm - lvs is still the load balancer of choice ?	22:47
Mech422Home	I'm assuming thats to avoid s.p.o.f. and not for load balancing reasons ?	22:48
SynQ	Mech422Home: actually I'd prefer a netscaler	22:48
SynQ	assumption is the mother of all error	22:49
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9694 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Story code. Added validParent, storage location code.	22:49
SynQ	Mech422Home: what alternative would you use then?	22:49
Mech422Home	I don't have s.p.o.f. worries - we usually just use pound	22:50
Mech422Home	I use varnish for caching - that can load balance if you don't need fancy sessioning	22:50
Mech422Home	perlbal is supposed ot be good too, right ?	22:50
SynQ	hold on a moment	22:51
SynQ	pound is not really a load balancer	22:51
+perlDreamer	what is SPOF?	22:51
Mech422Home	its a proxy load balancer - but how is that not a 'real' load balancer?	22:52
SynQ	it's more of spraying reverse proxy	22:52
Mech422Home	single point of failure	22:52
SynQ	a 'real' loadbalancer does nothing with the content	22:52
SynQ	have you read the LVS manual?	22:52
Mech422Home	synq: pound doesn't do anything with it unless you ask (sticky sessions)	22:52
Mech422Home	not in about 5 years	22:53
Mech422Home	which is why I asked	22:53
Mech422Home	pound is the 'de facto' standard for zope/plone - so I've used that for close to 10 years now..	22:53
SynQ	ah	22:53
Mech422Home	I haven't looked at lvs or ultramonkey or any of that in ages	22:53
SynQ	I would use LVS for any	22:54
SynQ	ultramonkey again is something completely different	22:54
SynQ	varnish I don't know about and perlbal is also a proxy	22:54
SynQ	let me put it this way...	22:55
+MrHairgrease	anbody had trouble using yui's datatable	22:55
+MrHairgrease	and get this error?	22:55
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease: every day :(	22:55
Mech422Home	yes, proxy and load balancer are not mutually exclusive	22:55
+MrHairgrease	�invalid 'instanceof' operand DS if(oDataSource && (oDataSource instanceof DS)) {	22:55
SynQ	if you really want to build a load balanced cluster you want a combination of LVS, Heartbeat, MySQL with replication, a reverse proxy, multiple modperl hosts, a dedicated spectre server and perhaps some more caching layers	22:56
Mech422Home	I tend to think of lvs when you need stuff like open connection support - forwarding tcp/ip connections, etc.	22:56
SynQ	indeed	22:56
Mech422Home	umm - yeah, assuming you use all that :-)	22:56
SynQ	and you want to have that too	22:56
SynQ	so your question is a bit strange	22:56
Mech422Home	I generally don't run mysql or perl - webgui is new to me - my main biz. is plone	22:57
SynQ	if you really want a loadbalancer	22:57
SynQ	you use a loadbalancer	22:57
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease, can you paste some code?	22:57
SynQ	and not a proxy	22:57
Mech422Home	umm - whatever - yer getting pendantic :-P	22:57
SynQ	and if you want I loadbalancer I would recommend LVS	22:57
SynQ	it is really the best	22:57
SynQ	now let's discuss proxies :)	22:57
+MrHairgrease	yeah, I was doing that: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m42f9594f	22:58
Mech422Home	yes, a $20K hardware load balancer would be nice, but if I don't need spof support, the proxy based solutions work fine :-)	22:58
SynQ	I woul like to use nginx	22:58
+MrHairgrease	line 7 triggers the error	22:58
SynQ	LVS does not cost $20K	22:58
Mech422Home	I realize that...	22:58
SynQ	and if you don't need spof support a proxy still is not the same as a loadbalancer	22:59
Mech422Home	please don't lecture - I know my biz - your needs seem to be different, thats all	22:59
SynQ	:)	22:59
SynQ	It's not about your bizz	22:59
Mech422Home	whatever	22:59
SynQ	I kiss you :)	22:59
SynQ	a loadbalancer cannot be 'proxy based'	23:00
SynQ	a proxy is something else	23:00
@rizen	Mech422: don't take it personally. SynQ is just annoying by nature	23:00
Mech422Home	rizen: so I see	23:00
SynQ	indeed so	23:00
SynQ	martin can vouch for that too :P	23:00
+MrHairgrease	perldreamer: forgot to include a line, this one's right: http://webgui.pastebin.com/ma540a0d	23:00
@rizen	at last year's wuc he got under my skin so bad that i ended up shouting at him in front of a dozen people in one of the sessions i was leading at the wuc	23:01
SynQ	rizen: how is your opinion on experimenting with nginx instead of apache for modproxy	23:01
SynQ	that was adorable JT :)	23:01
+MrHairgrease	rizen: next time shout with your fist =)	23:01
+MrHairgrease	something else won't make him stop =)	23:02
@rizen	i have no idea what nginx is, but in general there would have to be some absolutely amazing advantages to make me consider switching away from modproxy	23:02
SynQ	that is not true martin and you know it :P	23:02
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease: is it still line 7 that is the problem?, or now 15?	23:02
Mech422Home	rizen: nginx servers about 25% of v hosts on the net now..according to their site	23:02
+MrHairgrease	15	23:03
SynQ	rizen: one absolutely amazing advantage is that with nginx you can tell the proxy to give only so much bandwith per client	23:03
+MrHairgrease	teh error comes from deep in the DataTable source	23:03
@rizen	just because most of the world uses it, doesn't make it great though. look at IE for example.	23:03
Mech422Home	rizen: touche :-)	23:03
Mech422Home	rizen: so is varnish cache out of the question too ?	23:03
SynQ	making it a lot more difficult for one user to saturate the entire webserver	23:03
@rizen	that's a pretty cool feature	23:04
Mech422Home	rizen: its a lot faster then squid for man cases	23:04
SynQ	Mech422: what is the url for that varnish stuff?	23:04
+perlDreamer	Mech422Home, that's 25% of the vservers in Russia, unless I misread that	23:04
SynQ	rizen: nginx has a smaller memory footprint than apache (much) since it has a different threading model	23:05
SynQ	I don't care how much servers it runs on	23:05
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease: do you have connection-min loaded?	23:05
SynQ	actually	23:05
Mech422Home	synq: http://varnish.projects.linpro.no/	23:05
SynQ	but it's nice that at least some sites use it :)	23:05
SynQ	Mech422: thanks	23:05
+MrHairgrease	perlDreamer: yup	23:05
SynQ	varnish doesn't run on mac?	23:06
Mech422Home	perldreamer: Hmm - could be - I seem to recall seein it was 25% total though - maybe netcraft or something	23:06
Mech422Home	SynQ: given its 'c' - I have no clue	23:06
Mech422Home	phk is an fbsd legend though - so it should	23:06
+MrHairgrease	perldreamer: http://webgui.pastebin.com/d51c43536	23:07
+MrHairgrease	the error comes from line 4416	23:07
+MrHairgrease	so maybe I'm borking my DataSource	23:07
+MrHairgrease	checking on that	23:07
SynQ	jt: source of all is here: http://host003.procolix.com/uploads/source.tgz	23:08
SynQ	it's 431M	23:08
@rizen	synq, can it still do all the stuff modproxy can do? like url rewrites, ssl, setting cache headers, etc?	23:08
@rizen	i have the source down, but thanks	23:08
SynQ	yes it can	23:08
SynQ	ok great	23:09
@rizen	then we can talk about it for wre 1.1	23:09
SynQ	sure thing	23:09
@rizen	as for 1.0 i just want to get the damn thing out the door	23:09
SynQ	indeed	23:09
SynQ	64 bits?	23:09
@rizen	that's the goal	23:09
SynQ	or is even that optional?	23:09
@rizen	if i can't make it 64 bits by the end of the week, then i'm going to release it as 0.9	23:09
@rizen	cuz we need a release	23:09
SynQ	good plan	23:09
@rizen	and i can't release it as 1.0 until it's 64 bit	23:10
SynQ	if you do release it as 0.9	23:10
SynQ	I'm going to update it bi-weekly with updated perl modules if available	23:10
SynQ	as 0.9.1 and 0.9.2 etc	23:10
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease, http://webgui.pastebin.com/d631c5223	23:11
@rizen	why SynQ ?	23:11
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease: maybe it doesn't like the XHRDataSource?	23:12
SynQ	to keep up with security releases	23:12
SynQ	a security hole in one of the things that webgui runs on is a bad thing	23:12
SynQ	that problem should be attended to	23:13
SynQ	and I'm willing to do that	23:13
@rizen	ok, but the problem is that you're likely introducing more bugs than you're fixing	23:13
SynQ	well	23:13
@rizen	if you're updating all the modules	23:13
@rizen	updating just the ones that have security problems is one thing	23:13
@rizen	but updating all of them is something else	23:13
SynQ	I will run the complete test-bed after each update and before committing	23:13
+perlDreamer	SynQ: the tests do not fully cover WebGUI	23:14
@rizen	that's not enough	23:14
SynQ	oh	23:14
+perlDreamer	hand testing each type of asset is still required	23:14
Mech422Home	ouch - that sounds like a bitch	23:14
+perlDreamer	you need to unleash your horde of programmers on writing tests	23:14
@rizen	that's why doing what you're talking about is not a good idea	23:14
+MrHairgrease	perlDreamer: perhaps, but I built this according to the documentation	23:14
SynQ	ok	23:14
SynQ	only modules that have security problems then?	23:15
+MrHairgrease	I'm trying to find out how to get data out of a DS	23:15
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease: I was just looking at this: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/datatable/dt_xhrjson.html	23:15
+MrHairgrease	that way I can check whether I have data or not	23:15
+perlDreamer	I've seen some kind of a callback for that	23:17
@rizen	that would be fine SynQ	23:17
SynQ	I'll release an 'experimental' WRE and a 'stable' one	23:17
+perlDreamer	maybe it was in the AssetManager?	23:17
+perlDreamer	believe it or not, if no data is sent the DataTable will do the right thing	23:17
SynQ	learning how to write tests seems like a bit of a steep learning curve for me	23:18
SynQ	you need the entire WebGUI api to be able to use that	23:19
+perlDreamer	SynQ, not always. The idea is not to get overwhelmed with the whole task, but to pick one thing and test it.	23:20
+perlDreamer	and then to test another	23:20
+perlDreamer	and another	23:20
+perlDreamer	lots and lots of small steps	23:20
+perlDreamer	it's parallelizable	23:20
SynQ	rizen: if you make sure you check in to svn regularly I can run multiple compile runs regularly	23:20
SynQ	perlDreamer: ok	23:21
Mech422Home	is there a buildbot type thing for perl ?	23:21
Mech422Home	an automated builder/tester ?	23:21
+perlDreamer	Mech422Home, _for_ perl, for perl type projects, or _in_ perl?	23:21
+perlDreamer	I hear some people use smolder	23:21
+perlDreamer	and tinderbox	23:22
Mech422Home	for perl type projects	23:22
+perlDreamer	smolder	23:22
Mech422Home	python projects pretty much use buildbot	23:22
Mech422Home	it's sorta the 'standard' - is there one for perl ? hmm - I'll have to look that up	23:23
Mech422Home	would it make sense to put up 'smolder' instances for wG ?	23:23
+perlDreamer	sure!	23:23
Mech422Home	I can rig up a vm for it..maybe get 2 or 3 of them going at different places so we don't have a 'github' type issue ?	23:23
+perlDreamer	with lots of them, we'd need a good aggregator. I think smolder will do that, too.	23:24
Mech422Home	prolly don't need lots - but 2 or 3 so you can always see one...	23:25
Mech422Home	perlDreamer: ok - smack me upside the head later if I don't give you an ip	23:25
+perlDreamer	ip?	23:25
Mech422Home	i.p. address	23:26
Mech422Home	for smolder/vm	23:26
Mech422Home	I'll have to figure out smolder first though	23:26
+perlDreamer	you sound like you know your way around. The fun part will be getting it to play well with the WRE	23:26
+perlDreamer	each one wants its own private set of modules	23:26
Mech422Home	ahh - so 1 smolder can test multiple 'versions' of the wre ?	23:28
+perlDreamer	I wouldn't think so.	23:28
Mech422Home	oh - then whats with the 'each one' above ??	23:28
Mech422Home	wont there just be one wre thats being tested ? (with one set of private modules?)	23:28
+perlDreamer	smolder has a "private" cache of perl modules that it prefers to use. The WRE also has a private cache of modules.	23:29
+perlDreamer	as long as smolder resets the paths correctly, it should not be a problem	23:29
* perlDreamer quits procrastinating, and goes running.		23:30
Mech422Home	hmm..	23:30
+perlDreamer	cue deafferret for counter-balancing food commentary	23:30
Mech422Home	heh	23:31
SynQ	ok	23:38
SynQ	off to bed	23:38
SynQ	later	23:38
SynQ	~	23:38
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@preaction	anyone on the WRE right now can confirm that i'm not going completely nuts?	00:28
@preaction	if your WebGUI is in /data/WebGUI, go to /data and do "wreservice.pl --restart modperl"	00:28
@preaction	since "." is in the @INC, WebGUI tries to load: WebGUI::lib::WebGUI::Asset and WebGUI::lib::WebGUI::Pluggable and etc...	00:29
@Haarg	interesting	00:35
@Haarg	i would expect that to happen though, yeah	00:36
@preaction	afaik it never caused problems before, now it refuses to start the server	00:37
@preaction	let me find the exact error	00:37
@preaction	and this is probably my fault	00:37
+perlDreamer	It's March, preaction, everything is your fault	00:38
@preaction	how it that different from February?	00:38
+perlDreamer	February it's khenn's turn	00:38
+perlDreamer	I have November	00:38
@preaction	sure, give khenn the smallest month...	00:38
@Haarg	actually, last time i saw that preaction was when there was a /WebGUI directory	00:40
@Haarg	because apache will chdir /	00:40
CIA-46	WebGUI: jt * r9695 /wrebuild/ (6 files in 2 dirs):	00:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: removed subversion, swig, and neon	00:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: added notes about libgomp for rhel5	00:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: updated PoCo DNS and PoCo HTTP	00:41
CIA-46	WebGUI: added rsync, ncurses, and readline	00:41
@Haarg	i wonder if we should remove '.' from the lib path in mod_perl	00:46
@preaction	i can't see any good reason why it should be in there	00:51
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+perlDreamer	awesome patspam interview	01:01
+perlDreamer	anyone who says WebGUI needs more tests is okay in my book	01:01
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patspam	heh thanks perlDreamer	01:02
+perlDreamer	and while we're on the subject, somebody needs to voice our new PBWG in channel	01:03
@preaction	somebody.	01:03
+perlDreamer	oh, you know. One of the Plain Black staff people with the leetle askerisks next to their names	01:03
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* patspam jumps for joy		01:03
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@Haarg	perlDreamer, i'm planning on changing wgd reset so options are always set in order of usage, so that 'wgd reset --no-uploads --dev' would recreate uploads but 'wgd reset --no-uploads --dev' would.	01:30
@Haarg	does that seem reasonable?	01:30
+perlDreamer	it allows for overriding, so yes	01:30
@Haarg	main reason is to allow for profiles to be overridden because currently they can't be	01:31
+perlDreamer	that'll be nice. that way you won't have to write dozens of profiles, just one or two that can be overridden/extended with a few options	01:32
@Haarg	yeah	01:32
@Haarg	i really need to start working on some api docs soon. i've tried to make it simple to use, but that means many parts aren't obvious if you are just reading the code.	01:32
+perlDreamer	over the weekend, I found myself wanting to type wgd restart http	01:33
@Haarg	heh	01:33
+perlDreamer	which would look in the config file for commands to restart apache	01:33
+perlDreamer	so it would work with or without the WRE	01:33
@Haarg	wouldn't be a bad idea	01:33
@Haarg	i have a shell script for that	01:33
@Haarg	since the wreservice script does extra verification that i don't want or need	01:34
+perlDreamer	whenever I restart apache, I always wipe the webgui log	01:34
+perlDreamer	service httpd stop; echo '' > /var/log/webgui.log; service httpd start	01:34
+perlDreamer	typing !service works well	01:34
+perlDreamer	until I muck with some other service	01:34
CIA-46	wgdev: Graham Knop autotest * r966a0af / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm : Set directory mode correctly for systems with a max umask of 0777 - http://bit.ly/U8MwD	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: Graham Knop master * r6092f7b / lib/WGDev/Command/Base.pm : more flexible command line parsing - http://bit.ly/Y04K	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: Graham Knop autotest * rcffc054 / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm : Merge branch 'master' into autotest - http://bit.ly/sXxPC	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: Graham Knop master * r64e5fd0 / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm :	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: clean up argument parsing allowed by Base.pm changes	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: Options are set based on their order on the command line. Later options	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: override earlier options, including --dev style and --profile style. - http://bit.ly/4lvZcf	01:40
CIA-46	wgdev: Graham Knop master * rb083bba / lib/WGDev.pm : Also load libs from preload.custom - http://bit.ly/84kr3	01:40
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@preaction	perlDreamer: do !?service httpd	01:56
@preaction	or even just !?httpd	01:56
+perlDreamer	!? ??	01:56
@preaction	? = search the entire line for this string	01:56
+perlDreamer	oh	01:57
+perlDreamer	nice	01:57
@preaction	so !?httpd will look for the last line to have "httpd" in it	01:57
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+perlDreamer	this is very cool: http://www.omnipotent.net/jquery.sparkline/	02:47
+perlDreamer	and for me to say something like that about javascript, you know it's gotta be true	02:48
@preaction	wow	02:54
SDuensin	perlDreamer, you're easily amused. :-P	02:55
SDuensin	I show you guys Cappuccino and you're like, "eh".	02:55
+perlDreamer	did you see the little realtime javascript graph of mouse speed?	02:55
SDuensin	perlDreamer - http://280atlas.com/	02:58
+perlDreamer	this is a video? Did they make that with javascript.	03:05
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9696 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Test adding children, along with automatically adding folders.	03:05
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9697 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm t/Asset/Story.t): Add JSON handling, and move code form addRevision to update.	03:05
SDuensin	perlDreamer - Look at what their library does. It's amazing.	03:05
+perlDreamer	I'll watch the video later. Right now a violent, impatient 9-year old is clamoring for metro train videos	03:06
SDuensin	Uh, ok.	03:06
* perlDreamer wears many hats		03:07
@preaction	it's like xcode for webapps	03:09
SDuensin	Yep.	03:09
+perlDreamer	asking about xcode at this point would be ironic, yes?	03:10
SDuensin	They've basically implemented Cocoa.	03:10
@preaction	xcode is how you write OS X applications	03:10
SDuensin	And "Objective-J".	03:10
SDuensin	www.280slides.com was written with it.	03:10
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@preaction	it'd be interesting to see this backed by Thingy	03:12
SDuensin	?	03:12
@preaction	use this to build interfaces for Thingy data	03:12
SDuensin	Hell yea.	03:12
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* deafferret eats many hats		03:32
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+perlDreamer	I missed ya today, deafferret	04:05
+perlDreamer	preaction had to eat some parmesan chicked because you were absent	04:05
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deafferret	perlDreamer: Mondays are rough for IRC	04:40
+perlDreamer	lots of meetings?	04:41
deafferret	ya. 2 work locations, meetings all afternoon	04:41
deafferret	I get some work done before 1pm, then not so much	04:42
+perlDreamer	since starting my business, the number of meetings had dropped considerably	04:42
deafferret	how do people waste your time if you're the boss?	04:46
+patspam	does anyone know if there a good reason for wre perl to be compiled without threads support?	04:47
+perlDreamer	deafferret, I have children	04:49
+perlDreamer	patspam: would it interfere/clash with mod_perl/apache?	04:50
+patspam	I'm wondering that too..	04:50
+perlDreamer	although, perl -V on fedora says that it has a threaded perl	04:51
+patspam	threads were "new and to be treated with caution" in 5.8, but supposedly stable and only 2% slower these days	04:51
+patspam	yeah i think all the distros are moving to threaded perl now	04:51
+perlDreamer	patspam, what do you develop and host on?	04:51
+patspam	it might just be a wre legacy thing	04:51
+patspam	i use wre perl	04:52
+patspam	distro?	04:52
+perlDreamer	yeah	04:52
+patspam	ubuntu on my dev box	04:52
+perlDreamer	I figure I'm the only person nuts enough to not use the wre	04:52
+patspam	heh	04:52
deafferret	g'night all	04:52
+patspam	you use 5.10, that's awesome	04:52
+perlDreamer	later, deafferret	04:52
* perlDreamer wants to use say, ~~, switch and all the other goodies		04:53
+patspam	yeah, i'm dying to use them too	04:53
+patspam	I'll ask the list. I'm sure riven and synq know	04:55
+perlDreamer	yeah, maybe Haarg, too	04:55
* perlDreamer switches to Dad mode		05:00
+perlDreamer	catch y'all later :)	05:00
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+BartJol	nice interview Patrick	11:17
+patspam	thanks Bart :)	11:24
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CIA-46	WebGUI: brian * r9698 /branch/crop/lib/WebGUI/ (Asset/File/Image.pm Storage.pm i18n/English/Asset_Image.pm): checkpoint	13:25
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CIA-46	WebGUI: brian * r9699 /branch/crop/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm: checkpoint	17:14
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+BartJol	khenn: I posted a macro for your rfe http://www.webgui.org/rfe/request-for-enhancement/add-quotsite-rankingsquot-to-karma	17:38
@khenn	cool	17:38
@khenn	I think I submitted that a few years back	17:39
+BartJol	it kinda works	17:39
@khenn	yeah seems to be missing the stars	17:39
+BartJol	but you need to take care of all the files and groupId	17:39
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+BartJol	but I don't know pb's staff groupId	17:39
+BartJol	and there is more karma nowadays	17:40
+BartJol	but to give all those variables as parameters, seemed a bit odd to me	17:40
+BartJol	oh, and khenn don't minde the part where all the db and ssh data is e-mailed to me, it's not important	17:42
@khenn	heh	17:42
+BartJol	;)	17:42
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+BartJol	tavisto: now I'm starting to get impatient	17:44
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+BartJol	who does receive messages from posts on the rfe list? I think one can be closed	18:28
@Haarg	which one?	18:28
+BartJol	http://www.webgui.org/rfe/request-for-enhancement/last-post-of-a-user-on-the-plainblack-/-webgui_org-site	18:29
+BartJol	wait, maybe I'm wrong	18:31
+BartJol	yeah, I am, again, I'm starting to bug me	18:31
+BartJol	sorry Haarg	18:31
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+BartJol	just wishfull thinking	18:32
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+perlDreamer	haven't read this one yet, but I will later today	18:42
+perlDreamer	http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/qibpbk7lXXE/article.pl	18:42
+perlDreamer	Comparing usability in wordpress and joomla	18:42
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@Haarg	very odd	18:56
@Haarg	every time i run the full test suite, t/ProfileCategory.t fails	18:56
@Haarg	but if i run it on its own it works	18:56
+perlDreamer	have you tried prove -v to figure out exactly what's failing?	18:57
@Haarg	not yet	18:58
+perlDreamer	I'll try it on my dev box to see what happens	18:58
@Haarg	that would be a books worth of output to go through though	18:58
+perlDreamer	but when I helped SynQ with the WRE two weeks ago, full test suites were passing	18:59
+perlDreamer	are you using any switches?	18:59
+perlDreamer	CODE_COP?	18:59
+perlDreamer	TEST_POD?	18:59
@Haarg	both	19:00
+perlDreamer	I'll try a quick run without, and see what that turns up	19:00
@Haarg	there are a couple test failures i have fixes for	19:00
+perlDreamer	brb	19:01
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+perlDreamer	back	19:05
@Haarg	re http://www.webgui.org/bugs/tracker/9808	19:06
@Haarg	i think there's a typo there, and it it breaks the help test	19:06
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+perlDreamer	that's possible, but I thought I ran the i18n and help tests after fixing that	19:08
+perlDreamer	for me profileCategory.t fails without the extra switches	19:11
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+perlDreamer	dumping categories and rerunning	19:16
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+perlDreamer	Haarg: I changed two things at the same time	19:20
+perlDreamer	1) added dumping to the ProfileCategories test	19:20
+perlDreamer	2) Fixed a permission problem on uploads/temp	19:20
+perlDreamer	the next test run did not fail with profileCategory.t	19:20
+perlDreamer	which tests do you have fixes for?	19:21
@Haarg	survey	19:21
@Haarg	which is committed	19:21
@Haarg	and the ad tests	19:21
@Haarg	i'm going to keep looking at ProfileCategory	19:21
@Haarg	if you could look at help i'd appreciate it	19:22
+perlDreamer	you bet	19:22
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SynQ2	hi all	19:23
@Haarg	greetings	19:23
+perlDreamer	hole, SynQ2	19:23
SynQ2	I was wondering	19:23
SynQ2	last night JT said that it was unwise to update the perl modules in the WRE when new perl modules are available, since that would introduce more bugs than it would solve.	19:24
SynQ2	I have thought about that	19:24
SynQ2	and I think I disagree	19:24
+perlDreamer	if he were here, he would point out the JSON module as an example of that	19:25
* MrHairgrease is nit surpised =)		19:25
SynQ2	but that was a MAJOR upgrade	19:25
SynQ2	not a minor one	19:25
+perlDreamer	there were problem in the 1.9 series of JSON, as well	19:25
SynQ2	that was not a bugfix	19:25
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SynQ2	that was a full upgrade to a different program	19:25
SynQ2	new features in webgui also introduce more bugs in the beginning than leaving them be would?	19:26
SynQ2	but I agree on the 'stable' vs. 'experimental' view with JT though	19:27
SynQ2	which sort of defies the argument :)	19:27
+perlDreamer	Haarg, it's fixed and committed. I either missed that, or didn't run the test	19:30
@Haarg	thanks	19:30
+perlDreamer	is VersionTag.t failing for you?	19:31
@Haarg	no	19:31
+perlDreamer	I'll rerun it, and try it standalone	19:31
@Haarg	http://gist.github.com/73413	19:32
@Haarg	pod on ::ProfileCategory->set says 'Update the profile field properties. Any property that is missing, or empty will be replaced with a default.'	19:35
+perlDreamer	that's not true either, but it's more accurate than what was there.	19:37
+perlDreamer	the 3 flags get reset if they are not present	19:37
+perlDreamer	but the labels don't	19:37
@Haarg	you sure?	19:38
@Haarg	reads to me like they get reset if not provided	19:38
@Haarg	which is what causes the test to fail	19:38
+perlDreamer	then why does it behave differently if you run it standalone?	19:39
@Haarg	it doesn't i don't think	19:39
@Haarg	i think i've just been neglecting to reset between test runs :/	19:39
+perlDreamer	ah	19:39
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9700 /WebGUI/t/Asset/Wobject/Survey/SurveyJSON.t: survey test fix	19:40
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9701 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Asset_Search.pm: Fix a missing help entry in the i18n for the Search.	19:40
SynQ2	I would like to see Cache in the configfile turned to 'Database' by default, what are the arguments against that?	19:42
@Haarg	there are situations where the file cache perfoms better, but i tend to agree that db cache should be default	19:43
+perlDreamer	I used to think it was good that the tests kind of cross checked one another, but there are times when it is a huge pain	19:44
@Haarg	committed profilecategory test fix	19:45
+perlDreamer	Haarg, that test is "destructive" in that it changes the db config	19:47
+perlDreamer	should it reset that at the END?	19:47
@Haarg	which test?	19:47
+perlDreamer	ProfileCategory.t	19:47
@Haarg	ah	19:47
@Haarg	yeah, it probably should	19:47
+perlDreamer	I'll fix that	19:48
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SDuensin	Hey gang, is there a way to allow users edit rights to a page without creating a group for every one of them?	19:54
@Haarg	they can be set as the owner	19:55
@Haarg	there can only be one owner of course	19:55
SDuensin	Then just put them in "Turn Admin On"?	19:55
@Haarg	yeah	19:56
SDuensin	Ok, cool. I was headed that way, but figured I'd make sure.	19:56
+perlDreamer	Haarg, I'm still having wgd reset problems	19:58
@Haarg	permissions?	19:58
+perlDreamer	yes	19:58
@Haarg	how are they getting set?	19:58
+perlDreamer	the uploads/temp is never changed to be group writable	19:58
+perlDreamer	drwxr-sr-x 18 apache users 4096 2009-03-03 10:00 temp	19:58
@Haarg	i'm guessing a webgui problem	19:59
@Haarg	since wgd reset won't create 'temp'	19:59
+perlDreamer	good point	19:59
@Haarg	and webgui doesn't have that same permissions logic	19:59
@tavisto	SynQ2, did you get JT's email a few minutes ago? :)	20:00
+perlDreamer	this must happen during the upgrade then	20:00
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@tavisto	Mech422, you around?	20:01
+perlDreamer	yup	20:02
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9702 /WebGUI/t/ProfileCategory.t: fix ProfileCategory test misusing the API	20:08
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9703 /WebGUI/t/ProfileCategory.t: Restore the original properties for the profile category that was modified for test.	20:08
CIA-46	WebGUI: koen * r9704 /wrebuild/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Tools for developers in a separate directory.	20:08
* perlDreamer goes to the gym		20:10
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SynQ2	ok	20:18
SynQ2	tavisto: my response has been posted just now :)	20:18
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SynQ2	I was busy looking at it	20:18
SynQ2	hi Kristy	20:19
SynQ2	ie	20:19
@tavisto	what do you think?	20:19
SynQ2	tavisto: http://www.webgui.org/web_design_templates_and_themes/webgui-site-redesign/1	20:19
SynQ2	:)	20:19
SynQ2	my first reaction was: 'where do I have to start'	20:20
SynQ2	they all have so much info in it	20:20
SynQ2	http://www.joomla.org/	20:20
SynQ2	three clear choices for newcomers	20:21
SynQ2	not to much butterflies all over the page	20:21
SynQ2	that I like	20:21
SynQ2	this is allready a bit less: http://www.typo3.com and gives me the same reaction as the current suggestion in 'webgui-site-redesign'	20:22
SynQ2	This is a bit too boring for my taste: http://www.opencms.org/en/	20:22
SynQ2	This is perhaps even better then the joomla site: http://www.opensourcecms.com	20:23
SynQ2	for a landing page that is	20:23
SynQ2	For a community portal this is not bad: http://php.opensourcecms.com/ allthough I still think 'IN YOUR FACE' banners suck especially if they move	20:24
SynQ2	This has the same 'suggested' clockwork http://ariadne.muze.nl/ and has had that for years now	20:26
@tavisto	ack, that looks like something from a mid 90's powerpoint	20:26
@tavisto	I don't like the typo3 site at all, looks low budget IMO	20:27
SynQ2	well	20:27
@tavisto	I like joomla's site, and open source cms intro is not real useful	20:27
@tavisto	it's just a splash with 3 options	20:27
@tavisto	:)	20:27
SynQ2	ok	20:27
SynQ2	for a newcomer 3 options is allready a lot :)	20:27
@tavisto	we are trying to instantly present options to people AND reach out to newbs	20:27
SynQ2	have you read my post?	20:28
@tavisto	so maybe we can improve the newbie friendliness	20:28
@tavisto	yep	20:28
SynQ2	if you then look at the joomla site	20:28
SynQ2	these 3 large things on the top	20:28
@tavisto	I think the crown is supposed to be the thing that reaches out to the new visitors. But what you are saying is that you didn't see that when the design loaded?	20:28
SynQ2	that is drawing all your attention to it	20:28
SynQ2	no I didn't	20:28
SynQ2	I gather Wg2009spec.jpg is the landingpage?	20:29
@tavisto	yeah, I understand that, we did the same thing with the 3 categories on our site. However, you're right we did opt to go with a designer section instead of a new visitor section	20:29
@tavisto	yes, that is the home	20:29
SynQ2	what I saw there was 'designer' 'community' 'developer'	20:29
@tavisto	I talked with Mego about whether or not a designer section at the bottom would be as important as having a new visitor section	20:29
SynQ2	what I missed was 'Right here, right now' I only saw that when I really looked at the page for like 20 seconds	20:30
SynQ2	that middle section should me more 'in your face'	20:30
@tavisto	gotcha, we'll lets see what other people say and maybe there will be a case for one of the sections to switch to new visitors	20:30
SynQ2	thus lighter and bigger than the 3 'designer' 'community' 'developer' thing	20:30
SynQ2	I'll do a mockup of what I mean	20:31
SynQ2	hang on...	20:31
@tavisto	sure, you should attach it to your post for greater clarification	20:31
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@bopbop	SynQ2: just read your post, and I love the idea of using a dashboard so users can customize the type of news or updates they want to see	20:54
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SynQ2	ok	21:00
SynQ2	added mockup to the discussion page	21:00
SynQ2	bopbop: do say that on the disussion in that place	21:06
@bopbop	yep, will do	21:06
SynQ2	the more people join in the discussion the better the site will become	21:06
SynQ2	have you seen my mockup?	21:06
SynQ2	Obviously I am not a designer	21:07
@bopbop	I did- JT will say you're trying to copy Joomla, which he won't like :)	21:07
@bopbop	however,	21:07
@bopbop	I do think it draws attention to those areas nicely	21:08
SynQ2	I am not trying to copy Joomla	21:08
@bopbop	it was something the designer was struggling with	21:08
SynQ2	I would like to copy their method of drawing attention to the 'go next here' way	21:08
SynQ2	beter stolen well then created poorly	21:08
@bopbop	I know you're not trying to copy Joomla.... I understand the intention, and I agree that it does a nice job of making it obvious for site users	21:09
SynQ2	ok	21:09
SynQ2	than say that on the discussion :)	21:09
@bopbop	ok	21:09
SynQ2	I gotta run	21:09
SynQ2	driving home to wife and kid	21:09
SynQ2	I'll be online tonight	21:09
SynQ2	in an hour or so	21:09
+MrHairgrease	is there something like a pastebin for images?	21:24
+MrHairgrease	ah, imagebin.ca	21:25
+MrHairgrease	anybody see the link? http://imagebin.ca/view/KMAetx.html	21:25
+MrHairgrease	finally some recognision!	21:25
* SDuensin preaches the good word all over!		21:37
+MrHairgrease	the weird thing is, though, that in all the comments the word webgui isn't being mentioned as far as i can tell	21:38
+MrHairgrease	apart from the tag that is	21:38
+perlDreamer	MrHairgrease, it must have been a keyword entered by the submitter	22:04
+perlDreamer	but, you're right!	22:04
+perlDreamer	Now, someone with a slashdot account, go talk about WebGUI in that thread!	22:05
@preaction	i believe in slashdot you can be a normal user and tag articles	22:07
+perlDreamer	is webgui.org down?	22:09
* deafferret votes no		22:09
@preaction	not for me	22:09
@preaction	wonderful. WebGUI::User->acceptsPrivateMessages takes a userId, but WebGUI::User->acceptsFriendsRequest takes another WebGUI::User object...	22:13
@preaction	it also does no validation, so the error shows up in WebGUI::Cache::FileCache	22:13
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CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9705 /WebGUI/ (t/AdSpace.t lib/WebGUI/AdSpace/Ad.pm t/AdSpace/Ad.t): fix AdSpace, Ad tests	22:17
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9706 /WebGUI/docs/create.sql: preparing for 7.6.14 release	22:17
+perlDreamer	preaction: we have to make WebGUI 8 have a common API	22:21
@preaction	perlDreamer: do you have a dropbox?	22:22
+perlDreamer	yes	22:22
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+perlDreamer	Haarg, are you in the middle of a release?	22:48
@Haarg	yes	22:48
+perlDreamer	I'm glad I asked :)	22:48
@Haarg	and i'll be branching after that	22:48
+perlDreamer	it's just a fix for extra debug output in a test	22:49
+perlDreamer	it'll wait	22:49
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9707 /releases/WebGUI_7.6.14-stable: Release 7.6.14-stable	23:06
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9708 /branch/WebGUI_7.6: Create branch WebGUI_7.6	23:06
+perlDreamer	boy, it was nice just having one branch for a while...	23:10
@preaction	heh, i never have less than 7 different webguis on my system, and with git i suspect i'll be branching and merging a lot more	23:11
@preaction	one? what is this number you speak of?	23:12
+MrHairgrease	1	23:12
+MrHairgrease	there, hope that helps	23:12
+perlDreamer	one	23:13
+perlDreamer	uno	23:13
+perlDreamer	einz	23:13
+perlDreamer	that which is singular in nature, yet having a quantity along the real axis	23:13
+perlDreamer	number of noses currently on your face	23:13
+MrHairgrease	pd: it's eins	23:15
+perlDreamer	it's just my Schwabish accent. Sorry, MrHairgrease.	23:15
+MrHairgrease	I'm not offended	23:15
+MrHairgrease	My German sucks anyway	23:16
+MrHairgrease	=)	23:16
SDuensin	I get this a lot, should I worry? WebGUI::Operation::Cron::www_runCronJob[295] - Could not create workflow instance for workflowId 'pbworkflow000000000007': It is a singleton workflow and is still running from the last invocation.	23:16
+perlDreamer	SDuensin, you should find out that that workflow is, and why it's running for so long	23:16
+perlDreamer	it's likely an email related workflow, and if it can't keep up, you can start to develop a backlog	23:17
+perlDreamer	call RotoRooter	23:17
SDuensin	It is, but I don't think I'm sending that much.	23:17
@Haarg	yes, that is the mail queue workflow	23:17
SDuensin	mailq says it's empty.	23:17
SDuensin	Ran across that while trying to figure out why my calendar isn't pulling in a feed.	23:19
SDuensin	can you make a tmpl_loop run backwards?	23:41
+perlDreamer	no	23:45
+perlDreamer	not in HTML::Template at least	23:45
SDuensin	Ok. I'm not entirely sure what this lady is wanting from me anyway. :-)	23:45
+perlDreamer	what is she trying to do?	23:45
SDuensin	Beats me. I've got an online store for her and she wants everything "reversed".	23:46
SDuensin	I'm assuming she means the order the products are displayed.	23:46
SDuensin	I flipped 'em in the asset manager.	23:46
+perlDreamer	much easier	23:47
+perlDreamer	you can do that with variants, too, if you have the variant editing controls displayed	23:47
SDuensin	Yea, but she said "reverse it", so I did that. Now she says "reverse it". Um. Ok.	23:47
SDuensin	Dude, don't even get me going on the variants again. :-P	23:48
+perlDreamer	lineage is not versioned, so that shouldn't be a problem	23:48
--- Day changed Wed Mar 04 2009
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SynQ	hi there :)	00:39
+perlDreamer	he's back!	00:41
+perlDreamer	ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh	00:41
* preaction hides		00:42
SynQ	I'm just a boy whose intentions are good, o god please don't let me be misunderstood	00:45
* SynQ turns away from those unfriendly peoply who make him feel like he is not wanted here		00:46
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@preaction	NO WAIT COME BACK I LOVE YOUUUUU	00:46
@preaction	sigh... i'm gonna miss him	00:46
+perlDreamer	don't feel too bad, he didn't really leave	00:51
deafferret	you misunderstood	00:51
deafferret	right after he told you not to	00:51
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@preaction	yay! the prodigal sun returns	00:52
SynQ	let's try that again	00:52
SynQ	hi there :)	00:52
SynQ	I have had a very hard day	00:52
SynQ	and my toes are very easily tred upon right now	00:53
@preaction	we love you, really	00:53
SynQ	but that is not your fault actually	00:53
@preaction	we tease because we care	00:53
SynQ	I know	00:53
@preaction	i know, you're just easy to love	00:53
@preaction	i try to fight it, but i can't help myself	00:53
@preaction	WHY OH WHY CAN'T I QUIT YOU	00:53
SynQ	hehe	00:54
SynQ	today is a day where everything goes wrong	00:54
@preaction	heh, and that's different from every other day.. how?	00:55
SynQ	in that on other days I still move forward in one way or another	00:55
@preaction	ah, yeah i can see that being an issue	00:55
SynQ	my car broke down one day before being scheduled for maintenance at the garage	00:56
* perlDreamer is sorry, SynQ. It was a poor joke at your expense.		00:56
SynQ	perlDreamer: it's ok	00:56
@preaction	it's all your fault you insensitive ass	00:56
+perlDreamer	it's true	00:56
SynQ	I love you both	00:56
+perlDreamer	And I just went and pissed off ehab	00:56
SynQ	to make up for it?	00:56
@preaction	omg! stop! i can't fix everything!	00:56
SynQ	I know	00:57
SynQ	but your last post on working at home was really helpfull to me	00:57
@preaction	heh, but your car had it in for you, seriously ;)	00:57
@preaction	i told it not to, but it felt like playing a joke	00:57
SynQ	it was just that small tip over the border I needed to set some lines in our household	00:57
SynQ	if I want to work I'm working	00:57
SynQ	like right now	00:58
SynQ	:P	00:58
SynQ	I still get 30 more minutes to work	00:58
@preaction	yeah, when i was working in my living room with my gf living here, i wouldn't get any work done until she left	00:58
SynQ	but you got a lot of action and that is worth someting ;)	00:59
@preaction	well, not so much action, which is why i will now amend my comment by saying "ex-gf"	00:59
SynQ	ah	00:59
@preaction	can't win them all	00:59
@preaction	can't even win most of them	00:59
@preaction	but the ones you do win make up for everything	01:00
SynQ	at least I have I very sweet and loving wife and a adorable baby	01:00
+perlDreamer	she isn't reading over your shoulder, is she?	01:00
@preaction	mmm raison d'etre	01:00
+perlDreamer	my wife does that all the time	01:00
SynQ	perlDreamer: she is feeding Emma	01:00
SynQ	so no	01:00
@preaction	ha, she doesn't have to, that's why SynQ is better than us!	01:00
SynQ	she isn't	01:01
@preaction	he doesn't have that mixed awe/fear of his wife, they are equal partners in this journey of life!	01:01
@preaction	it's all awe, baby!	01:01
@preaction	awe-some!	01:01
SynQ	she knows I am an open book and always direct so no need to read over my shoulder indeed	01:01
@preaction	okay, maybe laid it on a bittle thick there	01:01
@preaction	ooh, i made a new word	01:01
@preaction	where's the coffee?	01:01
SynQ	preaction: well actually	01:01
SynQ	that sums it up pretty well	01:02
@preaction	wait, it's after 5p. no more caffiene for me	01:02
SynQ	where can I order a sixpack of spotted cow?	01:02
@preaction	uhh... durno	01:03
SynQ	New Glarus beer is available only in Wisconsin.	01:03
@preaction	we don't have many online grocery stores around here. peepod died pretty quick	01:03
SynQ	says: http://www.newglarusbrewing.com/Distribution.cfm	01:03
SynQ	that sucks	01:03
@preaction	yeah, that too	01:03
@preaction	that does suck, more people need the awesomeness that is new glarus beers	01:03
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@preaction	when i'm not getting new glarus, or stuff from the Great Dane (a nice oatmeal stout), i settle for guinness stout	01:04
@preaction	Great Dane is even less distributed than New Glarus	01:04
SynQ	what county is madison in?	01:04
@preaction	Dane county, WI	01:05
SynQ	ah nice	01:05
SynQ	preaction: do you know hopgoblin?	01:06
@preaction	nope	01:06
SynQ	Hobgoblin even	01:07
SynQ	http://www.wychwood.co.uk/	01:07
SynQ	they have got paddy'sTout	01:08
SynQ	that is nice too	01:08
SynQ	very hoppy	01:09
@preaction	sounds nice	01:09
SynQ	I'm starting to get thirsty	01:10
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CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9709 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 4 dirs): preparing for 7.6.15 dev	01:57
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9710 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/ (Wobject/StoryArchive.pm Story.pm): Handle the case when purging a story, and there's no storage location.	01:57
+perlDreamer	are new template variables supposed to be camel case, or underscored?	02:23
@preaction	i tend to use underscore for categories	02:25
@preaction	so "url_view" "user_firstName" "exif_cameraType"	02:25
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+perlDreamer	thanks, preaction.	02:30
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9711 /branch/WebGUI_Story/t/Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.t: Tests for StoryArchive view variables.	02:34
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9712 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Template help and i18n for the view template.	02:34
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@preaction	i think we need to have another look at the user profile API	03:12
@preaction	list-type fields, $user->profileField('alist') returns the value, but sometimes i will want the label	03:12
+perlDreamer	isn't that usually i18n'ed?	03:13
@preaction	if it is, it's not editable by the admin	03:13
@preaction	they can't add new options without me	03:13
@preaction	which i think defeats the purpose	03:13
+perlDreamer	just what is it that you're trying to do?	03:14
@preaction	so either i can't program against a list type, or they can't edit the list type	03:14
* perlDreamer puts on his suspicious old man developer hat		03:14
@preaction	there's a list type, i need to display the value in a template	03:14
@preaction	er.. i mean the label	03:14
@preaction	but that means i have to instantiate the profile field and parse the options, a suboptimal solution	03:14
+perlDreamer	I think you'll have to do that in any case	03:14
@preaction	especially since that means i am essentially tying myself to that profile field type	03:15
+perlDreamer	it only stores the value	03:15
@preaction	if it later becomes a text type, my code breaks	03:15
+perlDreamer	that is true	03:17
+perlDreamer	but how often is "sometimes"?	03:18
@preaction	anytime i am displaying the value to the end-user	03:19
@preaction	however, when searching, i have to use the internal value	03:19
@preaction	... even more ugliness	03:19
@preaction	oh, well, i suppose if they're both the same it doesn't matter	03:19
@preaction	and if they're not there has to be a damned good reason for it	03:19
+perlDreamer	in the profile itself, this isn't a problem, since it has access to the possibleValues hash for the list type	03:20
+perlDreamer	so it's only outside of it that's a problem	03:20
+perlDreamer	like the User macro	03:20
@preaction	and it's only a problem if the admin assigns a key:value pair, instead of just value\nvalue\n	03:20
+perlDreamer	does that work? I thought all list types were key/value pairs.	03:21
@preaction	there are a few different ways of configuring form controls, which i hope to consolidate sometime soon. the most common way is the one the DataForm uses	03:22
@preaction	which allow for values, one per line. or key\|value one per line	03:22
+perlDreamer	it's time for me to take a break	03:23
+perlDreamer	I keep typing worfklow	03:24
@preaction	heh, yeah, sounds like	03:24
+perlDreamer	that's worse than tempalte	03:24
@preaction	though i should mention i always type worlfkow	03:24
+perlDreamer	bbl	03:24
* perlDreamer is secretly hoping he's channeling Roddenbery		03:24
+perlDreamer	worf klow must be klingon	03:25
SDuensin	So would I be insane to allow every user the ability to create a page on my site?	03:30
@preaction	nope	03:33
SDuensin	Muhahaha.	03:33
@preaction	for what purpose?	03:35
SDuensin	Give everyone in town a home page on the town's web site.	03:36
@preaction	ah, nice	03:37
SDuensin	Still trying to figure out where my calendar feed went.	03:38
@preaction	you could modify the demo system to give everyone their own site	03:38
SDuensin	Does it expect to read external calendars in iCal format?	03:38
SDuensin	No, they want their own site, they get to BUY it. :-)	03:38
@preaction	iCalendar format, yes	03:38
SDuensin	But yes, I'm hacking things up to automate that as well.	03:38
SDuensin	Ok, that's why my feed isn't working.	03:38
SDuensin	Man, every time I import a calendar feed, I get duplicates. :-(	04:07
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elnino	HI! I'm now installing wre on an ubunto system.. new experience... anyway, it's already have perl on it.. So, if I want to install wre, do I uninstall the existing perl first? or does wre install in the "normal" directorys and will overwrite the existing install?	04:08
elnino	what what version of perl is in the latest wre version?	04:08
SDuensin	I imported the US Holidays calendar from Google. I have things like St. Patrick's Day on both the 17th (correct) and the 18th (not).	04:08
SDuensin	Looks like 5.10.0, elnino	04:09
@preaction	elnino: the WRE installs in its own directory. when you're using it, you make sure to ". /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment.sh" (there is a space between . and /), so that you are using the correct Perl	04:09
SDuensin	wait.	04:09
SDuensin	5.8.8	04:10
SDuensin	preaction - Ever see that calendar issue before?	04:10
@preaction	yes, i suspect time-zone issues	04:10
SDuensin	:-(	04:11
@preaction	is it exactly 5 hours off each way?	04:11
* SDuensin is CST.		04:11
SDuensin	Checking.	04:11
@preaction	CST would be 6 hours then	04:11
SDuensin	Not sure. For example, St. Pat's says: SCHEDULED	04:12
SDuensin	Tuesday, March 17 ? Wednesday, March 18	04:12
SDuensin	http://new.smithton.net/calendar/events?type=list	04:13
@preaction	look at the details for the event in the webgui calendar	04:13
SDuensin	That's where I got the text I pasted. There are no times.	04:13
@preaction	huh, that's weird	04:14
SDuensin	http://new.smithton.net/calendar/events/st6.-patricks-d	04:14
SDuensin	Leave it to me to find "weird".	04:14
@preaction	i'd post it as a bug and attach the icalendar feed you got the event from	04:14
@preaction	peraps the parser is choking again	04:14
SDuensin	ok - can do	04:14
SDuensin	Thanks.	04:14
SDuensin	7.6.14? When'd that sneak out!?	04:14
@preaction	today	04:14
SDuensin	Here I was going to load 13 and got a nice surprise. :-)	04:15
+perlDreamer	sorry, no more bugs	04:18
+perlDreamer	all bugs in the core have been fixed	04:18
elnino	so. do I need to remive the existing perl before installing wre? or am I ok with both instances?	04:18
+perlDreamer	to get new bugs, we need new code	04:18
+perlDreamer	calendar is old cod	04:18
elnino	sounds like Ican have both.	04:18
+perlDreamer	no code	04:18
@preaction	elnino: you're okay with both. the . /... thing does the switch for you	04:18
+perlDreamer	no bugs in it	04:18
@preaction	that's how we could fix the calendar!	04:19
SDuensin	:-P	04:19
+perlDreamer	take all the code out of it? yup, that would work	04:19
@preaction	no code == no bugs!	04:19
@preaction	then i can keep my hair!	04:20
* preaction pets his hair lovingly		04:20
+perlDreamer	what does your hair have to do with calendar bugs?	04:20
@preaction	they're making me lose my hair!	04:20
elnino	thatnks preaction and SDuensin for your help.	04:20
+perlDreamer	well, if the calendar is making you lose hair, what is the unmentionalble asset doing to you?	04:21
SDuensin	Anytime, elnino - WebGUI is DA BOMB!	04:21
+perlDreamer	we do not use its name...	04:21
@preaction	THAT one is working fine, because the person who wrote it was smart	04:21
SDuensin	Bug filed.	04:22
@preaction	or do you mean that OTHER asset	04:22
+perlDreamer	won't say it	04:22
@preaction	there's only one asset that is the bane of my existence, and that is the Calendar	04:24
@preaction	all other assets are cool with me	04:24
+perlDreamer	DTSTART=;VALUE=DATE:20090222\nDTEND;VALUE=DATE:20090223	04:24
+perlDreamer	that's why they're two days long	04:24
@preaction	the only problem is there's some sort of comraderie between assets, and they won't gangstomp the calendar for me	04:24
+perlDreamer	because they SAY they're 2 days long	04:25
SDuensin	They do? That's F'ed up!	04:25
@preaction	YEAH! SCORE 1 FOR NOT MY FAULT!	04:25
SDuensin	hehehe	04:25
+perlDreamer	Google attempts to take over the world by reworking specs	04:25
* preaction does not mention the score for "TOTALLY MY FAULT"		04:25
+perlDreamer	sounds vaguely familiar..	04:25
+perlDreamer	perlbot: karma preaction	04:25
perlbot	Karma for preaction: 32	04:25
SDuensin	Ok, so if I yank the feed now, do I have to manually remove each entry from my calendar?	04:26
@preaction	uh... yes?	04:26
@preaction	i don't remember really	04:26
SDuensin	That's not the right answer!	04:26
+perlDreamer	hold his feet to the fire, SDuensin!	04:28
SDuensin	But... But... How can Google be WRONG?!	04:28
+perlDreamer	you know, in that wordpress/joomla article, WebGUI compares pretty well to wordpress in number of clicks	04:33
SDuensin	Number of clicks?	04:33
+perlDreamer	The author compares usability to the number of clicks it takes to do something	04:34
+perlDreamer	like, add a blog	04:34
+perlDreamer	add an article, page	04:35
+perlDreamer	etc	04:35
+perlDreamer	http://www.playingwithwire.com/2009/03/open-source-and-usability-joomla-vs-wordpress/	04:35
+perlDreamer	this is where rizen and tavisto need to step quickly in and compare WebGUI to Wordpress, Joomla and Drupal	04:35
@preaction	http://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2009/01/15/sagecrm-v62-wheaton-college-and-webgui-alterian-and-jaguar-accenture-r.asp <- anyone see this? second section	04:36
SDuensin	I've used all three. My empire runs on WebGUI. My last non-GUI site is going bye-bye this week.	04:37
SDuensin	Excellent! Go Wheaton!	04:38
+perlDreamer	nice!	04:39
+perlDreamer	more linkage	04:39
@preaction	uhoh, on their library site they've got a "New! Try our new catalog interface", which isn't WebGUI	04:39
@preaction	http://library.wheaton.edu/	04:39
SDuensin	Kick their ass.	04:40
@preaction	and it looks like they could use some development guides	04:40
@preaction	nono, though perhaps we should enter a beneficial business relationship with them	04:40
@preaction	tavisto!	04:40
@preaction	damn him.. never around when i need him	04:40
@preaction	marketing jocks are all the same	04:40
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+perlDreamer	maybe you have to say his name 3 times, like Beetlejuice?	04:41
+perlDreamer	preaction, that's also 7.0.8	04:41
@preaction	yeah, i saw that too	04:41
+perlDreamer	old 7x code	04:42
+perlDreamer	upgrades would do them a world of good	04:42
@preaction	which is why it's vitally important that we tell them, if they're migrating away from webgui, to upgrade before they finalize that decision	04:42
@preaction	7.0 is what, 3 years old now?	04:42
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+perlDreamer	if it's user facing, wouldn't it be finalized?	04:42
@preaction	it's under development, we still have a chance! we break in and steal the SOURCE	04:43
@preaction	because there's no chance they have a robust backup procedure or anything	04:43
+perlDreamer	tavisto	04:44
+perlDreamer	tavisto	04:44
+perlDreamer	tavisto	04:44
@preaction	he cannot help us	04:45
+perlDreamer	he can tomorrow	04:46
@preaction	we must h4x0r teh g1b53n	04:46
+perlDreamer	stop daydreaming about Angelina Jolie	04:46
@preaction	her lips are horrific	04:46
@preaction	if only she didn't have those lips...	04:47
@preaction	she's close, but no cigar	04:47
+perlDreamer	I don't know...	04:48
+perlDreamer	anybody that can curve a bullet around a room like that	04:48
* perlDreamer switches to Daddy mode.		04:49
+perlDreamer	okay, i procrastinated	04:52
+perlDreamer	the new interface is WebGUI, too	04:52
@preaction	really?	04:52
+perlDreamer	yeah	04:52
@preaction	i checked the source and it didn't have the generator tag	04:52
+perlDreamer	that's what the librarian says	04:53
+perlDreamer	they have a realtime meebo chat interface :)	04:53
+perlDreamer	either that, or this librarian doesn't know	04:53
* SDuensin uses Meebo on some WG sites.		04:53
@preaction	the "VuFind discovery interface" thing isn't WG	04:54
+perlDreamer	it sure doesn't look like it	04:54
@preaction	eh, i see how it is though, there are about 50 different systems to integrate	04:54
@preaction	colleges outrank gov't agencies in complexity	04:55
+perlDreamer	they have fewer funds	04:55
* perlDreamer really goes into daddy mode now :)		04:55
@preaction	http://www.gspm.org/Julie+Germany/130_Why-the-State-Department-Gets-It <- a nice blurb about one of our clients	04:56
@preaction	okay, so if when creating a new user, their profile fields don't get any privacy values to start with, is that a bug?	05:00
+perlDreamer	yes	05:03
+perlDreamer	ask khenn	05:03
@preaction	yeah, sent him an e-mail	05:03
+perlDreamer	sounds like it needs a test written for that	05:03
@khenn	yes that's a bug	05:08
@preaction	submitting a bug	05:09
SDuensin	How do I run spectre in debug so I can watch it?	05:11
@khenn	cd /data/WebGUI/sbin	05:12
@khenn	perl spectre.pl --debug I think	05:12
@preaction	--run --debug	05:12
SDuensin	ko	05:13
SDuensin	Got a workflow going nuts here.	05:13
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knowmad	patspam: nice write-up in PBWG	05:18
knowmad	i never knew about that "easter egg" hidden in the gooey dolls	05:18
+patspam	heh thanks william	05:19
SDuensin	Man, something is MAD. Apache over-runs the memory limit about every 3 seconds.	05:19
knowmad	i'll have to try it when i get to work tomorrow and see if it works!	05:19
SDuensin	EAster egg?	05:19
knowmad	read Pat's writeup -- http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/campaigns/people/patrick-donelan	05:19
@preaction	SDuensin: perhaps the memory limit is too small?	05:19
SDuensin	Beats me. Whatever shipped with it, I think.	05:19
SDuensin	$Apache2::SizeLimit::MAX_PROCESS_SIZE = 100000;	05:20
SDuensin	$Apache2::SizeLimit::MAX_UNSHARED_SIZE = 75000;	05:20
* knowmad is signing off		05:23
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@preaction	SDuensin: yeah, up those both to 110000	05:24
SDuensin	ok	05:24
@preaction	it's Apache2::SizeLimit killing processes, right?	05:24
SDuensin	yea	05:25
@preaction	yeah, then that's the way to fix that	05:25
@preaction	god... why is my drowsiness going away now...	05:25
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SDuensin	When do user workflows run? At logon? Creation?	05:29
@preaction	creation or update, depends on which trigger you use	05:30
@preaction	they are set in the Settings panel	05:30
SDuensin	Looking.	05:31
* SDuensin is installing http://www.webgui.org/bazaar/workflow-activity-to-create-personal-user-areas-when-user-is-created		05:31
SDuensin	AH! The docs missed that part.	05:32
SDuensin	Or I missed that part. Thanks again.	05:32
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CIA-46	WebGUI: doug * r9713 /WebGUI/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/User.pm): fixed #9852: Users can accept private messages from Visitor, but Visitor cannot send messages	05:39
+perlDreamer	where's the test for that?	05:40
@preaction	BITE ME	05:40
@preaction	i mean, i left it in my other pants	05:40
+perlDreamer	and don't forget to backport it	05:40
@preaction	backport?	05:40
@preaction	GOD	05:40
+perlDreamer	yes	05:40
+perlDreamer	back to 7.6	05:40
+perlDreamer	from 7.7	05:40
@preaction	i was all happy like "This will be easy" and you come and STOMP ON MY DREAMS	05:41
+perlDreamer	actually, I think he did some backporting	05:41
+perlDreamer	he forked Adam and made Eve	05:41
+perlDreamer	and it still doesn't say where all those wives came from	05:41
+patspam	http://www.sdhconsulting.com.au/tmp/passive-analytics-icons1.jpg	05:41
+patspam	preferences?	05:41
+perlDreamer	middle one	05:42
@preaction	bar graph	05:42
@preaction	line graph isn't as obvious "THIS IS A GRAPH"	05:42
@preaction	bar graph is blunt, like a bar	05:42
+perlDreamer	it's not a graph, it's a path through a website	05:42
+perlDreamer	passively analyzing where the user has gone	05:42
@preaction	oh,	05:42
+perlDreamer	and, may I say, Wow does Andy make nice graphics.	05:42
@preaction	indeed	05:43
+perlDreamer	why isn't he in IRC?	05:43
@preaction	perhaps make the user guy bigger?	05:43
@preaction	and the line graph in front of the user	05:43
+patspam	I'll see if i can get him in here	05:43
+perlDreamer	back to showering kids, be back in 15	05:43
+patspam	what irc client do you OSX folks use?	05:44
@preaction	some use colloquy, but I use Xchat Aqua	05:44
SDuensin	XCHAT!	05:45
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+patspam	heh thanks, I think he'll be here shortly	05:48
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+perlDreamer	I'm back	06:01
+perlDreamer	andyiomoon, your graphics are awesome!	06:02
elnino	YEA!	06:02
andyiomoon	hehheh - why thank you	06:02
andyiomoon	as I was telling Pat - I haven't used IRC in years!	06:03
* patspam chalks up another australian in the channel.. grand total of 3		06:03
+perlDreamer	that means you just passed up the Dutch	06:03
andyiomoon	who is the third?	06:03
+perlDreamer	and that's an accomplishment	06:03
+perlDreamer	Radix	06:03
+patspam	he's in Perth	06:03
elnino	no sorry, I don't know andyiomoon. YEA that perlDreamer is back. But I'll say "yea" for andyiomoon's graphics too.	06:03
andyiomoon	or if I am the third who is the second	06:03
andyiomoon	ah cool	06:03
+patspam	elnino: andy is the "S" in SDH	06:04
elnino	whos SDH? Oh good grief.. maybe I should read some history before "jumping in" (Hi patspam)	06:05
+perlDreamer	elnino, have you kept up with the latest PBWG interview on webgui.org?	06:05
+patspam	perlDreamer and preaction: refresh http://www.sdhconsulting.com.au/tmp/passive-analytics-icons1.jpg for the new icon	06:05
elnino	not at all.	06:05
+perlDreamer	the latest one is a certain well known spamproof australian	06:05
@preaction	i likes!	06:05
@preaction	when it gets down to teh very bottom, it's still recognizable	06:05
+perlDreamer	very spritely	06:05
andyiomoon	yep - took out the little man for the 16x16 - too muddy otherwise	06:06
elnino	I did see patspam picture, is that what you're refering to?	06:06
+perlDreamer	that's the one	06:06
elnino	yes, that was a nice photo. =)	06:06
andyiomoon	I still think the webgui doll should have been in focus and you all blurry pat	06:07
+perlDreamer	SDH is the group that patspam, andyiomoon and H work for.	06:07
+perlDreamer	We haven't met H yet, but based on the other 2/3's it bodes very well	06:07
andyiomoon	more mystery that way :)	06:07
andyiomoon	ahh perlDreamer you ol' silver tongue	06:07
+patspam	perlDreamer: spamproof? dang did you hunt down my iconBuffet profile? or is that just a coincidence	06:08
+perlDreamer	it's the psychic interface	06:08
+perlDreamer	preaction: I'll backport and write the test.	06:09
@preaction	already backported	06:10
@preaction	test not writ though	06:10
+perlDreamer	I thought you fixed the profile bug	06:11
@preaction	yeah, visitors shouldn't see the "send message" links, caused by "acceptsPrivateMessage" being true	06:12
+patspam	so depressing that the only way to get my printer to work reliably is to talk to it from inside a windows vm	06:15
+perlDreamer	preaction: /me is confused	06:16
+perlDreamer	there are no global privacy field settings	06:16
+perlDreamer	at the profile field level	06:16
+perlDreamer	so isn't having them all private correct?	06:17
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CIA-46	WebGUI: doug * r9714 /WebGUI/docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt: fixeding my borkes to the changelog	06:20
CIA-46	WebGUI: doug * r9715 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/User.pm): backported 9713	06:20
+perlDreamer	ProfileField doesn't even know about wg_privacysettings, aside from reserving it as a field name	06:22
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elnino	oh.. I'm installing a new instance of wre and I'm missing something. I haven't done this before, only upgrades..	07:19
elnino	I'm following http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/wre-installation.	07:19
elnino	I untared and I'm attempting to run ./wreconsole.pl and then it talks about setting up a site. Is it not going to ask me to downoad webgui? I think I naswered my question.. =)	07:20
elnino	hmm. after reading this I guess I'm wrong. my port 60834 seems not to be responding/	07:24
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elnino	how do I get rid of old version of mp3 files that my user uploaded? is that taken care of the "delete old asset revisions" workflow?	07:39
elnino	I see this: http://www.webgui.org/community-wiki/clean-temp-storage but, I believe there to be missing information on this wiki.	07:44
@preaction	elnino: delete old asset revisions is what takes care of that, but you can delete revisions manually if you want	07:44
elnino	ok.. that workflow sounded like it only dealt with db entries.	07:45
elnino	do you use ubunto by any chance?	07:45
@preaction	no, os x	07:45
elnino	ok.	07:46
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elnino	port 60834 seems to be blocked, but I hav eno proof, nor know how to determine this.. Anyone there that can tell me what to look at on a ubunto system?	08:12
elnino	patspam. fyi. on your website, your link to canto cumulus is broken.	08:14
elnino	do you guys provide webgui hosting?	08:14
+patspam	elnino: heh we have the most awesome website ever, single page, static html	08:39
+patspam	and totally out of date	08:39
+patspam	we don't host professionally, we outsource that to folks like procolix	08:40
elnino	hi. patspam.. shouldn't you be using umm. webgui? =)	08:46
+patspam	static html is the future, down with wg!	08:47
elnino	ok then. =) I went to procolix.. who here manages that... I was looking for prices.	08:48
+patspam	speak to Koen, aka SynQ	08:49
+patspam	he should be waking up in an hour or 2 :)	08:50
+patspam	meanwhile, I'm off, night all!	08:50
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elnino	preaction, do you know Tiffany (SEO gal) and what is her website?	09:05
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@preaction	elnino: elitedesignsltd.com	09:22
elnino	oh yes. Thank you.	09:22
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topsub	Is there a way in webgui i can import like 191 images with a zip file or something?	16:02
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+MrHairgrease	topsub: I don't think so	16:05
+MrHairgrease	but you can always use the fileImport script in sbin of course	16:05
topsub	Ah i might have to look at that	16:05
+MrHairgrease	provided you have server access that is	16:05
topsub	i have 191 images to import	16:05
+MrHairgrease	I always use fileImport for stuff like that	16:06
topsub	cool i will give that a try	16:06
+bartjol	tobsub, do you want to put them in a Gallery?	16:17
topsub	bartjol, No, i just need them in an images folder	16:18
+bartjol	I heard that has a zip import function?	16:19
+bartjol	then I have to agree with Martin	16:19
topsub	this is for a javascript captcha and these are the supporting images	16:19
+bartjol	ah	16:19
+bartjol	cool	16:19
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elnino	MrHairgrease.. rumer has it that you are working on http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/9781is this true?	17:31
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+MrHairgrease	I am not working on a PayPal plugin	17:32
+MrHairgrease	but I heard there is one in the making	17:33
+MrHairgrease	I'm not in on the details though	17:33
elnino	hmm. are you working on any payment plugin?	17:33
+MrHairgrease	Not currently, but I am working on other commerce stuff	17:33
* elnino is sad		17:33
+MrHairgrease	Why?	17:34
SDuensin	Greetings!	17:34
elnino	cause you're not working on one.	17:34
+MrHairgrease	7.7 is far away anyway	17:34
SDuensin	Isn't there a PayPal driver in the Bizarre?	17:34
elnino	I know.. That's why I was exceited to hear that you were working on one. I must have misundertood, or forgot who they said.	17:34
elnino	I'll look again SDuensin	17:34
+MrHairgrease	I think Joeri is working on one	17:35
+MrHairgrease	but as i said, I'm not in on the details	17:35
elnino	hey. . there it is! It's New!	17:35
+MrHairgrease	and I know for a fact that he's very busy	17:35
SDuensin	:-)	17:35
elnino	was it you SDuensin?	17:35
SDuensin	No, I just happened to see it last night.	17:36
elnino	no author listed. I'm trying it!!!	17:36
elnino	Thanks! guys, you made my day.	17:40
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SDuensin	Let us know how it goes. (Especially me!)	17:40
+MrHairgrease	yeah, feedback in this direction is apprciated as well	17:41
elnino	It'll be slow.. Got several projects going, but I know my customer wants this desparately. I'll post comments on the bazzar, or is it more appropriate here?	17:41
SDuensin	Either/both. I'll find it next time I browse it. But coming here to chat is fun. :-)	17:42
elnino	I just found out you can subscribe to it (far right column) then you'll be notified.	17:43
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dionak	has anyone tested the paypal plugin yet?	17:59
dionak	it will be a very useful addition to webgui	17:59
+bartjol	elnino is trying I believe	18:00
@tavisto	who created a paypal plugin?	18:01
dionak	cool...looking forward to hearing about it. the rfe's were confusing	18:01
@tavisto	I knew this was coming but didn't know it was already in testing	18:02
+bartjol	tavisto: nothing will be published until you've made a cartoon	18:02
@tavisto	haha	18:02
+bartjol	but the publisger of the plugin is unknown	18:02
@tavisto	don't worry, "the adventures of BartJol: The Big Dutch Girlyman" will soon be at newstands near you	18:03
+bartjol	ah	18:03
dionak	it's odd that the username of the plugin poster isn't displayed in the Bazaar.	18:04
+bartjol	it is	18:04
+bartjol	the mysterious anionymous contributer... abbreviated that's mac, so I guess it's a mac user	18:05
dionak	bartjol must work nights as a comedian..	18:06
elnino	I have to do a webgui upgrade before I can try this	18:06
SDuensin	Do it, man! We wait with baited breath!	18:09
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+perlDreamer	bopbop, I have the solution!	18:13
+perlDreamer	SeasonShot is a green bullet alternative	18:13
+perlDreamer	http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/03/04/green.bullets/index.html	18:14
@bopbop	ah- yes it is	18:14
+perlDreamer	Environmentally friendly and biodegradable	18:14
+perlDreamer	Being tasty is just a side benefit	18:14
@bopbop	lol- I just read that this am	18:14
@bopbop	and tasty	18:14
+perlDreamer	has the FDA approved it yet?	18:14
@bopbop	dunno	18:14
@bopbop	don't think so	18:14
@bopbop	maybe this will do it	18:14
+perlDreamer	Hope so.	18:15
@bopbop	:)	18:15
+perlDreamer	Okay, on to other business	18:15
+perlDreamer	tavisto!	18:15
+perlDreamer	Has preaction told you about Wheaton College's library site yet?	18:15
@tavisto	perlDreamer, he has not told me a thing	18:23
+perlDreamer	well, then	18:23
+perlDreamer	we found a new WebGUI site	18:23
@tavisto	do tell!	18:23
@tavisto	here's another new one www.thebetterfish.com	18:23
@tavisto	pretty sharp	18:23
+perlDreamer	http://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2009/01/15/sagecrm-v62-wheaton-college-and-webgui-alterian-and-jaguar-accenture-r.asp	18:24
+perlDreamer	and if that isn't enough	18:25
+perlDreamer	there was a Slashdot article yesterday comparing usability in WordPress and Joomla	18:25
+perlDreamer	http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/qibpbk7lXXE/article.pl	18:26
+perlDreamer	the author of the article basically did label and # of clicks to get a job done	18:26
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+perlDreamer	Of course, Slashdot over-hyped it. The Joomla people didn't get upset about it	18:27
+perlDreamer	but, it would be interesting to see comparisons of WebGUI against other CMS systems.	18:27
+perlDreamer	could be good marketing, maybe the source for another story	18:27
+perlDreamer	at the least, it would let us know things to fix in WebGUI for ease and speed of use	18:32
+bartjol	yeah	18:32
+bartjol	some feedback from other people than WebGUI junkies should be good	18:32
+bartjol	maybe it's just addictive	18:33
+perlDreamer	f00li5h, did you get hired? Is that why you changed your nick?	18:35
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SDuensin	Have I mentioned in the last 10 minutes that I frickin' LOVE WebGUI?	18:40
deafferret	SDuensin: yes. At 10:40.	18:41
+perlDreamer	This would be a bad time to mention JSON in the db, then, yes? ;)	18:41
SDuensin	:-P	18:41
SDuensin	YES! It's EVIL!	18:41
+MrHairgrease	http://webgui.pastebin.com/m43f9b963	18:43
+MrHairgrease	I'm going crazy here	18:44
+MrHairgrease	the problem is this	18:44
+MrHairgrease	the pasted method does not return the full contents of the $json to the browser	18:44
+MrHairgrease	it limits it to 8193 bytes	18:45
+MrHairgrease	which is close to 8192	18:45
+MrHairgrease	/tmp/barf.txt has the whole json string though	18:45
+MrHairgrease	what could be limiting my output?	18:46
daviddelikat	what does the caller look like?	18:46
+MrHairgrease	eventually it's being called by WG::Content::Shop	18:46
+MrHairgrease	it's an addition to WG::Shop::Vendor	18:47
daviddelikat	so is it the web client that shows only ~8193 chars?	18:47
+MrHairgrease	yes	18:47
daviddelikat	lotta stuff in between there	18:47
daviddelikat	not likelyl to be in the perl code you posted.	18:47
daviddelikat	have you tried 'wget'?	18:48
+MrHairgrease	yup	18:48
+MrHairgrease	oh now it's 8348 bytes btw	18:48
@tavisto	perlDreamer	18:48
@tavisto	how is this a new site? Wheaton has been using WebGUI forever	18:49
daviddelikat	can you give me a URL?	18:49
* perlDreamer didn't know tavisto		18:49
@tavisto	http://www.plainblack.com/success/education/wheaton-college	18:50
@tavisto	bad perlDreamer! bad!	18:50
daviddelikat	MrHairgrease: a URL?	18:50
+MrHairgrease	i pmed you	18:51
+perlDreamer	the perl code is fine, MrHairgrease. I'd be looking at apache	18:51
@tavisto	I'm sorry I have to do this perlDreamer, but I'm going to replace that shiny "I know everything" button on your vest with a "I almost know everything" button.	18:51
+MrHairgrease	yeah i know	18:51
+MrHairgrease	but i don't know where to look	18:52
+MrHairgrease	everything else is fine	18:52
+perlDreamer	tavisto, maybe it could say: I only know code	18:52
+MrHairgrease	and most pages are prolly more that a lousy 8k	18:52
@tavisto	tavisto thinks perlDreamer makes a great 'walmart greeter' for WebGUI	18:52
* perlDreamer hopes that's a positive		18:53
@tavisto	hehe of course	18:53
@Haarg	probably would be good to verify that other pages are over 8k	18:53
@Haarg	you also might try outputting with session->output->print directly	18:54
@tavisto	perlDreamer, what I can't figure out is why they reused that story on their site in a different location.	18:56
@tavisto	This was the originally story on Jan 13, 2009: http://internetcommunications.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise/articles/48555-wheaton-college-happy-with-webgui-library.htm	18:56
+perlDreamer	maybe they're just recycling content?	18:57
@tavisto	not sure if you know this, but all WebGUI press gets added to the "WebGUI in the news" section of webgui.org. (under promote) It has a collection of 7-8 stories right now. This is also an area where we can post news stories about WebGUI partners and resellers if their stories get picked up.	18:57
+perlDreamer	I should have checked that.	18:58
+perlDreamer	Is there a place for us to submit stories to be added to that list?	18:58
@tavisto	well this is a new story so I'm glad you showed me. It's factually incorrect at the end though	18:58
+MrHairgrease	oh crap	18:58
+MrHairgrease	wget does get the correct result	18:58
@tavisto	right now it's only setup for Plain Black to add them. (because it aggregates to the main news mailing list)	18:58
+MrHairgrease	it's just that my firefox doesn't for some reason	18:58
@Haarg	how are you testing it in firefox?	18:59
+MrHairgrease	forgot the escape the ? in the url	18:59
@tavisto	Good point though, I need to add an email address or data form to that page so people can submit news.	18:59
+MrHairgrease	just by going to the url	18:59
+MrHairgrease	wait	18:59
daviddelikat	MrHairgrease: how is your firewall involved here	18:59
daviddelikat	are you going out then back in?	18:59
+MrHairgrease	maybe it's the fancyass json colorizer plugin i installled	19:00
+MrHairgrease	hang on	19:00
+perlDreamer	tavisto, sounds like a good idea for the new site design. A Partners page with a dataform or something would be very handy	19:00
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@tavisto	perlDreamer, another thing that has been extremely useful is to setup Google Alerts for the keywords "webgui" and "plain black webgui". It's helped me find lots of obscure stories and blogs about WebGUI.	19:00
+perlDreamer	tavisto, did you notice the "whataboutwebgui" tag on that usability article?	19:00
@tavisto	like this blog that just recently compared Alfesco to Joomla to WebGUI. And WebGUI got some nice props	19:01
@tavisto	http://weis627.blogspot.com/2009/03/content-management-system-showcase.html	19:01
@tavisto	no I didn't, let me look	19:01
+MrHairgrease	yup	19:01
+MrHairgrease	it was the crapass json colorizer plugin	19:01
+MrHairgrease	it can prolly handle only 8k of json...	19:02
+MrHairgrease	thanks for the help!	19:02
@tavisto	perlDreamer, which article are you referring to	19:03
+perlDreamer	to the slashdot article itself.	19:03
@tavisto	I dont see anything about WebGUI	19:04
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SDuensin	Ok, I'm confused. I'm putting groups inside groups. When I place a group inside a group, it also adds "Admins" under that. Why does it do that?	19:07
+perlDreamer	SDuensin, it's a feature.	19:07
+perlDreamer	Admins are automatically members of all groups	19:07
SDuensin	Ah! Ok, so those are the groups that are under the group I'm adding.	19:07
SDuensin	I get it now! :-)	19:07
+perlDreamer	tavisto: http://imagebin.ca/view/KMAetx.html	19:08
+perlDreamer	not sure how to find those tags otherwise...	19:09
+perlDreamer	unless MrHairgrease was spoofing us	19:09
+bartjol	well, that's a clear link	19:10
+MrHairgrease	I also still have the original screen shot w/o all my artwork	19:15
@tavisto	that's really strange	19:15
@tavisto	in a good way of course	19:15
@tavisto	well the drupal and webgui tags are not there now when clicking on the individual story	19:17
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daviddelikat	how does one assign a template id for a new default template?	19:18
+perlDreamer	either creatively make one with 22 characters that is a valid GUID (see Session/Id for details)	19:19
+perlDreamer	or, have WebGUI do it for you, using the api	19:19
* perlDreamer heads to the other office		19:19
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@tavisto	well that's cool to see a webgui tag on slashdot. I'm just curious how it made it there	19:29
@preaction	the tagging thing allows other people to tag posts	19:37
@preaction	it's not there anymore, it got moderated off or something	19:38
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topsub	the fileimport worked perfect.. whew!! didn't want to import 191 images.. haha	19:46
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CIA-46	WebGUI: jt * r9716 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Asset_Survey.pm: labeling survey as beta	19:51
+perlDreamer	Haarg, I was able to fix my uploads permissions problems with a fixup script and --util	19:52
+perlDreamer	WGDev to the rescue!	19:52
@Haarg	cool	19:53
@Haarg	i was thinking about what you said about a wgd restart	19:53
@Haarg	but i haven't come up with a good way to handle it yet	19:54
@Haarg	i guess if it was limited to only restarts it would make sense	19:54
+perlDreamer	I think util is really the same thing, with the scripts stuck in the config file	19:54
+perlDreamer	oh, and there may be a problem with asset import/export and list types	19:56
@Haarg	the main thing is that restarting is something that may be useful elsewhere	19:56
@Haarg	there is	19:56
+perlDreamer	I'm seeing ARRAY (0x.....) as my template parser	19:56
@Haarg	yeah	19:57
@Haarg	i saw that, but haven't looked at it in detail yet	19:57
+perlDreamer	it just needs an array serializer similar to what the form types use, coming in and going out	19:58
@Haarg	well	19:58
@Haarg	i think it's a problem with the forms api really	19:59
@Haarg	at least partly	19:59
@Haarg	a select box can't have multiple values, so it shouldn't be returning lists	20:00
+perlDreamer	that is true	20:00
@Haarg	but for actual list values i'll probably need to do something	20:00
+perlDreamer	and the template parser is a select list	20:01
+perlDreamer	which it shouldn't be	20:01
+perlDreamer	since you can't have more than 1 parser	20:01
@Haarg	yeah	20:02
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+perlDreamer	should we fix that in 7.7?	20:04
topsub	I imported the 191 images on a local install of webgui. created a package and imported the package on another server.. i had to do this because i can ssh to that server. then when i click on the imported package i get a 404. Anyway to debug this without seeing the logs?	20:04
+perlDreamer	topsub, go to the Admin Console and turn on debug mode	20:04
+perlDreamer	restrict it to your IP if it's publicly available	20:04
+perlDreamer	it will give you a stack trace, query log, and the latest error	20:05
topsub	is that from settings.. don't think i ever used this debug mode before	20:05
+perlDreamer	yes, it's in settings	20:05
+perlDreamer	if you can't do ssh to the server, how do you do code installs?	20:06
topsub	well we had ssh but it has changed and the client dind't update us	20:07
topsub	so i am trying to do this work without having to ssh to the box	20:08
@Haarg	perlDreamer, it's a SelectList in the definition, but it's manually drawn using SelectBox	20:11
+perlDreamer	heh	20:11
+perlDreamer	that's right. It doesn't inherit getEditForm.	20:11
+perlDreamer	so changing it should be trivial and harmless	20:12
@Haarg	yes	20:12
+perlDreamer	and not cause problems in the future, either	20:12
@Haarg	wgd edit still needs adjustments for list types though	20:12
+perlDreamer	yes, but I think as a workaround I can change the YAML in the editor to be a scalar. that may work	20:12
@Haarg	it will	20:13
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hansw	hoi	20:18
+perlDreamer	hi	20:18
hansw	hmm, sorry, seem to start in Dutch again :-)	20:18
+perlDreamer	not a problem	20:19
hansw	Len around?	20:19
@preaction	Kranendonk? i dunno if he comes around here	20:19
hansw	just wanted to let him know we are porting his solaris machine to linux -)	20:19
hansw	yes, kranendonk, he used to visit this channel	20:20
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hansw	nice to there are more people in here	20:21
@preaction	indeed	20:21
SDuensin	I'm beginning to think the macro system was designed to anger me.	20:27
+perlDreamer	what's happening, SDuensin?	20:27
SDuensin	I basically need to provide links based on a user's group. Except the content either contains quotes which breaks the macro or the HTML editor mangles it...	20:28
SDuensin	So I was going to proxy in the content I need to display. Except the asset proxy macro can't be nested.	20:28
SDuensin	Argh!	20:28
+perlDreamer	how many groups do you have to work with?	20:30
SDuensin	Just one. I want to offer a link for a user to create their personal web space if they don't have one, or a link to that space if they do have one.	20:30
SDuensin	Trying to do it without writing another custom macro.	20:31
+perlDreamer	<a href="^GroupText(group,link1,link2);">^GroupText(group,label1,label2);</a>	20:31
SDuensin	OooO! Smart! Thanks!	20:31
+perlDreamer	that's why they pay me the big bucks	20:32
SDuensin	:-)	20:32
SDuensin	If this hack works, I'll be super happy.	20:33
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9717 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Template.pm: parser should be a selectbox, not a selectlist.	20:38
CIA-46	WebGUI: colin * r9718 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Beginnings of an edit form for the Story.	20:38
SDuensin	RFE for 8: Less hacky macro system!	20:43
@preaction	yeah... i once thought as you did	20:43
@preaction	YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE	20:43
SDuensin	The dark side refuses to create a valid URL.	20:43
@preaction	yeah, the thing about that, the only really smart macro system is unbearably slow	20:44
+perlDreamer	paste it, SDuensin, my young WebGUI padawan	20:44
SDuensin	http://jaeger.pastebin.com/m74b64d97	20:44
SDuensin	I've tried it with and without quotes.	20:44
+perlDreamer	yeah, lose the quotes	20:45
+perlDreamer	they're not needed	20:45
+perlDreamer	then please paste the output as well	20:45
SDuensin	If I do that, it mangles the HTML. Lemme get a copy of that.	20:46
+perlDreamer	I don't think you want ^u; in there	20:46
+perlDreamer	I think you really want ^/;	20:46
SDuensin	But ^/; doesn't provide a complete URL.	20:46
+perlDreamer	it needs a hostname?	20:47
SDuensin	Needs, no. But I want it.	20:47
+perlDreamer	the browser will do the right thing without it	20:47
+perlDreamer	all, would I be a fool for making	20:48
+perlDreamer	^FormLabel(hoverhelp,namespace,label,namespace);	20:48
+perlDreamer	which would make an i18n'ed label for forms with hoverhelp?	20:48
SDuensin	Ok, here's what I'm trying now: http://jaeger.pastebin.com/d4cf91b01	20:49
+perlDreamer	and the output?	20:49
SDuensin	Ugly.	20:49
SDuensin	The link for not being in the group is: http://test/create);	20:50
SDuensin	When I return to the editor, it has this: http://jaeger.pastebin.com/d530fc808	20:52
SDuensin	Fun!	20:52
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elnino	hi.	20:53
SDuensin	Re	20:53
elnino	lot of people here now.	20:54
SDuensin	It's a popular place.	20:54
+perlDreamer	SDuensin: http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1236192657_534/home?op=auth;method=logout	20:54
SDuensin	perlDreamer - Still enjoying the power of the dark side?	20:54
+perlDreamer	I just wrote your macro code	20:54
+perlDreamer	on that demo site	20:54
+perlDreamer	and it works	20:54
SDuensin	Dude, the URL contains the closing paren and semicolon of the macro. WTF?	20:55
elnino	=) Just wondering if there is a way to manually install wre without recompilein it (because I'm lazy). I don't know if I can do anything about unblocking port 60834. If I just untar the wre and webgui files, and bring over my conf files, would that work?	20:55
SDuensin	should	20:56
@Haarg	elnino, what i usually do re port 60834 is use ssh port forwarding	20:56
SDuensin	Can you SSH into your host?	20:56
SDuensin	Haarg - Great minds think alike. :-)	20:56
elnino	yes.	20:56
+perlDreamer	SDuensin, the stupid rich text editor is eating the macro	20:57
@Haarg	ssh user@host -L60834:localhost:60834	20:57
SDuensin	ssh -L 60834:127.0.0.1:68034 user@host	20:58
@Haarg	then you can go to http://localhost:60834/	20:58
SDuensin	Dang! Haarg beat me!	20:58
elnino	you guys are funny.	20:58
SDuensin	perlDreamer - Yes, it is.	20:58
elnino	this is where I get confuesed. Somebody (non-webgui) walked me thru this long ago.. and I got confused, it worked, but I dont' know how... so while I'm using putty, I can access the site using MY browser at Localhost? or do I replace localhost with the machine name?	20:59
SDuensin	Your browser @ localhost.	21:00
elnino	or.. what if ON that machine I just use w3m.. is there a way to do that?	21:00
@Haarg	wreconsole needs javascript iirc	21:01
elnino	oh ok. I understand that.. =)	21:01
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elnino	so putty will do some magic and make "localhost" not localhost. that's pretty cool. I'll try it after I get some sleep. I'm running on fumes.	21:02
+perlDreamer	It's a bug, SDuensin, please file it, along with the text you're trying to enter.	21:02
SDuensin	perlDreamer - ok, I can do that.	21:02
SDuensin	Custom macro time, eh? :-)	21:02
+perlDreamer	in the meantime, just disable the RTE	21:03
+perlDreamer	that thing is a piece of crap	21:03
SDuensin	Eh, yea.	21:03
SDuensin	Users like it though.	21:03
+perlDreamer	you could try this as a workaround	21:04
+perlDreamer	put that code into a snippet	21:04
+perlDreamer	then assetProxy it in	21:04
+perlDreamer	that should bypass the RTE	21:04
SDuensin	The snipped editor isn't rich?	21:04
SDuensin	Cool.	21:04
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@plainhao	i ran the bazaar classLoadTester.pl and i'm seeing two assetIds and a negative instanciate time for one of them, anyone know what that means?	21:29
@preaction	[la	21:52
@preaction	plainhao: it means that perl's timeing is off, which is a known issue with perl	21:52
* plainhao thanks preaction		21:52
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9719 /WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs): preparing for 7.7.0 dev	22:27
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--- Day changed Thu Mar 05 2009
+perlDreamer	SDuensin, did the snippet trick work?	00:08
SDuensin	Yep! Thanks!	00:09
* SDuensin is implementing everything now.		00:09
+perlDreamer	cool	00:10
SDuensin	This is gonna be so damn cool.	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: jt * r9720 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 3 dirs):	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: - Fixed a bug with Gallery where using the web service (iphone or iPhoto)	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: would cause images and albums to be uploaded as "admin" rather than the	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: user that actually uploaded them.	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: - Labeled Survey 2.0 as beta, per our quality policy.	00:10
CIA-46	WebGUI: jt * r9721 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/ (Gallery.pm GalleryAlbum.pm): forward porting gallery bug fixes	00:11
+perlDreamer	rizen: http://imagebin.ca/view/4emPah.html	00:24
@rizen	what am i looking at?	00:27
@rizen	oh	00:28
@rizen	now i know	00:28
@rizen	holy crap	00:28
@rizen	you're making good time	00:28
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@rizen	who the hell do you think you are patspam	00:29
+perlDreamer	well, not too much good time. You can't actually add Stories through the UI yet	00:30
+perlDreamer	but the API is there	00:30
+patspam	patrick?	00:30
@rizen	you think you can just email me and tell me what to do?	00:31
@rizen	do you think i have an email based api?	00:31
@rizen	huh?	00:31
@rizen	huh?	00:31
@rizen	do ya?	00:31
+patspam	shhhh don't tell eveyone else!	00:31
* SDuensin chuckles		00:31
+patspam	JT::Mail->ApproveRFE()	00:32
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SDuensin	Eh, that always throws an error here.	00:33
+patspam	while(1) { eval {JT::Mail->ApproveRFE} }	00:33
@rizen	the beautiful thing about that method is that behind the scenes it calls randomWrath()	00:34
@rizen	which could make sure nothing happens	00:34
@rizen	i could segfault	00:34
@rizen	i might do what you request	00:35
+patspam	while(1) { eval { srand(42); JT::Mail->ApproveRFE} }	00:35
@rizen	or i might do something completely other	00:35
+patspam	i know the secret seed	00:35
+perlDreamer	lol	00:37
WebGUI	pat!	00:37
WebGUI	rizen!	00:37
+perlDreamer	$rizen->installEmailAPI();	00:38
+perlDreamer	that's what was missing patspam	00:38
+patspam	no doubt you've written a test suite for it perlDreamer?	00:39
+perlDreamer	I only have manual tests for that one	00:39
+perlDreamer	$rizen has limited bandwidth and you have to be careful not to exceed it	00:40
WebGUI	rizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response?	00:40
@rizen	i have no reaction	00:40
WebGUI	that is unbelievable	00:41
@rizen	i really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it	00:41
WebGUI	ah	00:41
WebGUI	:)	00:41
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WebGUI	out of it?	00:41
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WebGUI	what does that mean, out of it	00:41
@rizen	the designers will do their best to assimilate the needs that people describe	00:41
@rizen	and then will implement the site	00:41
WebGUI	strange	00:41
@rizen	no more JT input required	00:41
WebGUI	so first you ask 'the community' to react	00:41
@rizen	it's a community site	00:41
@rizen	if the community decides to make stupid decisions	00:42
@rizen	that's their own problem	00:42
WebGUI	and then all these reactions go into the melting pot of the designers without rebuttle	00:42
CIA-46	WebGUI: graham * r9722 /WebGUI/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/Asset/Template.pm): fixed: Template parser cannot be set	00:42
WebGUI	and then they do something with it	00:42
WebGUI	so the designers get to decide on user interaction design to	00:42
WebGUI	are the designers going to participate in the discussion you reqested?	00:43
WebGUI	who are 'the designers'?	00:43
@rizen	plain black designers	00:43
WebGUI	the are called?	00:43
+perlDreamer	steve, meg, tabb, john	00:43
@rizen	tabitha, mego, steve, john	00:43
WebGUI	ah	00:43
WebGUI	are they going to participate in the discussion?	00:44
WebGUI	and if so, when?	00:44
@rizen	why would they?	00:44
WebGUI	they are not	00:44
@rizen	this is about community feeback	00:44
WebGUI	ah ok	00:44
@rizen	feedback	00:44
@rizen	if they have something to say then i suppose they would	00:44
@rizen	but they already had the last 1.5 months to discuss what was needed	00:44
WebGUI	that is clear to me	00:44
@rizen	and thats how we got to where we are now	00:45
WebGUI	in that case I am out of it too	00:45
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@rizen	you mean cuz you've said your piece?	00:45
WebGUI	no	00:45
@rizen	you have not said your piece?	00:45
@rizen	you did reply	00:45
@rizen	you were the first	00:45
WebGUI	I mean there is no use in discussing when the people who are going to implement are not participating actively in the discussion	00:45
WebGUI	of course	00:45
+perlDreamer	WebGUI: they can listen just fine.	00:46
WebGUI	I thought you where inviting the community into a discussion	00:46
@rizen	what is there to discuss exactly?	00:46
-!- WebGUI is now known as SynQ		00:46
+perlDreamer	No one said anything contradictory	00:46
+perlDreamer	They may just take all the feedback and build it	00:46
SynQ	well I have given at least 5 points that I would change	00:46
SynQ	are all the things I said going to be implemented	00:46
SynQ	?	00:46
@rizen	i suppose if you want me to go out there and say "i like this idea, and i hate that one" i could, but i don't think there's much merit in that...it's just a flame bait	00:46
@rizen	maybe maybe not	00:47
SynQ	there is a difference between flaim and discussion	00:47
@rizen	that's up to the designers to decide	00:47
SynQ	ok	00:47
SynQ	if you really want a community	00:47
SynQ	then the designers should tell the community why they would choose to do or do not implement suggestions	00:47
SynQ	let me illustrate that with an analogy	00:48
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SynQ	if the county wants the community to participate in the placement of a statue	00:48
SynQ	and ask for reactions to a suggestion	00:48
SynQ	then the community of that county does not feel really heared if all the suggestions are just read somewhere in a boardroom, no reaction is given and then the statue is placed	00:49
SynQ	the same goes true for the webgui.org style	00:49
SynQ	if you now say that it's going to be that way	00:49
SynQ	then there is no use in discussing it	00:49
SynQ	since in that case I don't feel part of the process	00:50
SynQ	I will complain after it is implemented	00:50
@rizen	first of all, you will complain no matter what	00:50
SynQ	and bitch on the points that I think should have been changed	00:50
@rizen	you are Koen	00:50
@rizen	that's what you do	00:50
SynQ	that is not fair	00:50
@rizen	second, you are currently trying to goad me into a flame ware	00:50
@rizen	and i'm trying to avoid one	00:50
@rizen	which is why i'm not commenting	00:51
SynQ	o god please don't let me be misunderstood	00:51
SynQ	now would be the right time from the other people reading this for some support	00:51
@rizen	if i have something to comment on then i'll comment on it	00:51
SynQ	ok	00:51
@rizen	until then there's no reason to do it	00:51
SynQ	just know that I feel being treated rude now	00:52
+perlDreamer	SynQ: you just want the designers to give you a summary of what they're going to change, and why? Do you foresee a 2nd round of debate after that?	00:52
@rizen	and i'm not going to explain my decisions, or ask the designers to explain their decisions as to why or why not someone's feature wasn't implemented.	00:52
@rizen	it is as it is	00:52
SynQ	perlDreamer: right	00:52
SynQ	and yes I foresee a 2nd round of debate after that	00:52
SynQ	rizen: in my opinion that is not a community	00:52
SynQ	that is a dictatorial regime	00:53
SynQ	the community has nothing to say really	00:53
+perlDreamer	that's probably the problem there. Every round of debate is $$, and slows down the implementation of the new site.	00:53
@rizen	no, in a dictatorial regime the community would have no input at all	00:53
SynQ	ok I give up	00:53
SynQ	I understand you	00:53
SDuensin	"I'm sorry. Is this the five minute argument, or will this be the whole fifteen minutes?"	00:54
SynQ	and I don't agree	00:54
SynQ	SDuensin: it's done allready	00:54
@rizen	it's ok if you don't agree	00:54
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@rizen	if you don't like the site after it's built, you still have a voice	00:54
@rizen	it's called an RFE	00:54
SynQ	agreed	00:54
SynQ	I think I have about 5 to 10 RFE's in on the community site allready	00:55
SDuensin	Bet you can't get your RFE rejected as fast as my JSON one. :-)	00:55
@rizen	SynQ, RFE's are implemented in the order they are ordered by karma	00:55
SynQ	I know	00:55
@rizen	spend your karma and move your RFE's up the list	00:55
SynQ	I have	00:55
@rizen	are they at the top?	00:55
SynQ	my top RFE is in 2nd or 3th position	00:56
SynQ	for a while now	00:56
@rizen	if so, they'll be implemented in the next couple of months	00:56
SynQ	3th even	00:56
@rizen	you're not trying to say that we haven't followed through on implementing RFE's are you?	00:57
SynQ	it has been on that list since october 2007	00:57
@rizen	cuz we implemented nearly 300 in the past 6 months	00:57
SynQ	I am not	00:57
SynQ	and I love you for implementing them :)	00:57
SynQ	as I said in september 2008: I have patience	00:57
SynQ	but what I don't understand	00:57
SynQ	if you ask for imput on the design	00:57
SynQ	and I put time in to react to that	00:58
SynQ	isn't it fair I get some response on that reaction?	00:58
@rizen	only if the idea warrants response	00:58
SynQ	ok	00:58
@rizen	which can happen in 1 of 2 cases	00:58
@rizen	1) we don't understand what you're asking and need clarification	00:58
@rizen	2) we want to propose an alternative	00:59
SynQ	ok	00:59
+perlDreamer	it would be nice if the designers would summarize the feedback and say what they were going to change, with why. But only so people know what's going to happen, and not to start a 2nd round of debate.	00:59
@rizen	why say all that? why not just do it.	00:59
SynQ	I don't see the harm in extra debate	00:59
@rizen	action not words	00:59
SynQ	that is what a community is about, isn't it?	00:59
+perlDreamer	actions don't always have clear reasons	01:00
+perlDreamer	not only that, if people want to RFE things that are not implemented, it will help set the karma threshold for those RFEs	01:00
SynQ	perlDreamer: karma threshold?	01:01
+perlDreamer	sure. Let's say that someone wants something very difficult, so the designers say that they would do it except for time constraints.	01:01
+perlDreamer	so the person submits an rfe for it	01:01
+perlDreamer	then he knows the karma threshold will be high	01:01
SynQ	indeed	01:02
SynQ	good point	01:02
+perlDreamer	I think you _both_ have good points. If PB is spending 4 people for 1.5 months of redesign, that's expensive.	01:02
SynQ	or if the designers say that they won't do it because they feel it is ugly then the karma threshold would be low, but the community could have a voice in that	01:02
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+perlDreamer	SynQ, if it was just a template and some graphics, then an RFE with a patch could be quickly implemented.	01:03
SynQ	indeed	01:03
SynQ	like less hourglass stuff floating around	01:04
SynQ	which allready 3 people have talked about	01:04
SynQ	but no designer has come by and said: you are right it is a bit too much	01:04
SynQ	nor have they said: it is a crucial part of the design, we want to keep it	01:05
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SynQ	perlDreamer: don't you think that such feedback is part of a community discussion?	01:09
+perlDreamer	If I thought that giving the feedback was going to cause another round of discussion, I'd be hesitant to give it.	01:09
+perlDreamer	Especially if it was costing me time, effort and money.	01:10
SynQ	isn't that time worth having a community then?	01:10
@rizen	SynQ: i just don't understand what you're arguing for. i've already said someone would give you feedback if feedback was warranted.	01:11
SynQ	time, effort and money might also get you a better and more effective design	01:11
@rizen	you seem to want a project manager	01:11
@rizen	someone to hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be ok, or that the shit has hit the fan	01:12
SynQ	rizen: I'm arguing for a response from the people who are going to implement it so the community feels involved	01:12
SynQ	involvment	01:12
@rizen	and i don't think you can do that	01:12
SynQ	that is what I'm arguing for	01:12
SynQ	why not?	01:12
@rizen	you want us to spend a bunch of time replying to every bullet point that's brought up	01:13
SynQ	what is the use in having a community if you don't involve them in your actions/	01:13
SynQ	no	01:13
@rizen	then what do you want?	01:13
SynQ	I want to get a reaction to my response that gives me the feeling that something is going to be done with it	01:13
SynQ	so that I don't feel that I'm talking to a blank wall	01:13
SynQ	but instead that I feel involved	01:13
SynQ	that I am part of the process	01:14
SynQ	that the time I am putting into it is not in vain	01:14
SynQ	my time is not free either you know	01:14
@rizen	so you want one response to each post that's put up saying "yes i saw this"	01:14
SynQ	are you serious?	01:14
@rizen	i'm trying to understand what you're asking for	01:15
SynQ	I want someone who is going to implement the style to react to my post and in a few lines say 'hey, I say what your points are. I think that this and that might be a good Idea, we are going to have to think about that and that. Thanks for your feedback'	01:16
SynQ	that would make me feel involved	01:16
SynQ	do you really not understand that right now I cannot feel that?	01:16
SynQ	you ask for feedback. I give feedback, but I get no reaction to that feedback.	01:17
SynQ	then how do I know if that feedback is appreciated	01:18
SynQ	and then when I ask you about it in the IRC channel you say (and I quote): (11:41:10 PM) rizen: i really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it	01:18
SynQ	which achieves exactly the opposite of me feeling involved	01:19
SynQ	I feel disconnected	01:19
SynQ	and even treated rudely	01:19
SynQ	you ask for feedback, and then when I give feedback you say you don't care about that	01:19
SynQ	I think that is rude, don't you?	01:20
@rizen	see it from my point of view	01:21
@rizen	the site is not my project	01:21
@rizen	i've handed it off to the designers to do	01:21
@rizen	why should i care what your responses are to that project that i'm not a part of?	01:22
SynQ	you should care since you are the person that asked for feedback on the forums	01:22
@rizen	i can understand why you might want to hear from somebody that your requests were read and understood	01:22
@rizen	SynQ: I'm only one guy	01:23
@rizen	i can't do everything	01:23
SynQ	and it is rude to ask someone to respond to a proposition and then when they do turn around and walk away	01:23
@rizen	that's the purpose of having minions	01:23
SynQ	I know	01:23
SynQ	you should have had one of your minions ask for feedback then	01:23
@rizen	so my mistake was that i posted the request in the first place	01:23
SynQ	I agree	01:23
SynQ	but the consequense is that you cannot be rude after that	01:23
SynQ	and walk away	01:23
SynQ	how can I know that you have handed it over to your minions?	01:24
@rizen	i should have either not asked for input from the community at all, logged in as one of my minions and posted the request, or just had them post the request	01:24
@rizen	you asked and i told you	01:24
@rizen	that's how you know	01:24
SynQ	for all I know you are taking this up as a pet project because you feel it is very important for WebGUI to have an active and involved community	01:24
@rizen	but you're being obtuse about the whole thing	01:24
SynQ	I don't know what obtuse means	01:24
SynQ	I'm going to look it up, can you bear with me for a moment	01:25
+perlDreamer	thick headed, stubborn, opinionated, inflexible	01:25
@rizen	i think it is very important for WebGUI to have an active and involved community, that doesn't mean that i have to be the guy that responds to every email that comes in	01:25
SynQ	ah	01:25
SynQ	I don't think I am obtuse	01:25
SynQ	I just want to be treated as a full person	01:25
SynQ	in real life as on the webgui forum as on irc	01:25
@rizen	you are a full person, in what way have i not treated you as such	01:25
@rizen	you asked a question about when I was going to respond	01:25
@rizen	and i said i wasn't	01:25
@rizen	and you were offended	01:26
@rizen	i haven't called you stupid	01:26
@rizen	i haven't belittled you in any way	01:26
SynQ	I was offended by this line: (11:41:10 PM) rizen: i really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it	01:26
@rizen	right	01:26
@rizen	i'm not responding	01:26
@rizen	so?	01:26
SynQ	I was offended because you said you really didn't care what I said	01:26
SynQ	which I thought (I understand better now) was rude since it was you who asked for a response in the first place	01:27
SynQ	but I think we have it all layed out now	01:27
SynQ	and I forgive you	01:27
* SynQ hugs rizen		01:27
@rizen	alright i will watch my phrasing. apparently i shouldn't say "I don't care" i should say "i'm not involved" or "talk to so and so"	01:28
SynQ	please do me a favour and be more carful to not post a request for reaction on something you are ....	01:29
SynQ	not going to look at any more yourself	01:29
@rizen	i still don't see why that matters, but ok	01:29
SynQ	damn	01:29
SynQ	then we are not done yet	01:29
SynQ	you should treat your community with respect	01:29
SynQ	if you ask for reactions then it is fair that people later ask you 'hey, what did you think about my reaction'	01:30
@rizen	that's not what you asked	01:30
SynQ	if you are not going to replay to that people will think you are rude	01:30
SynQ	that is what I asked: (11:40:21 PM) SynQ: rizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response?	01:30
SynQ	that is actually the first thing I asked	01:31
@rizen	right	01:31
@rizen	since you're niggling me on words i'll do the same to you	01:31
SynQ	go ahead	01:31
@rizen	you asked if i have any reaction	01:31
SynQ	yes	01:31
@rizen	not what my reaction is	01:31
@rizen	two different things	01:31
SynQ	fair enough	01:32
SynQ	I have to be clearer in what I ask is what you say	01:32
@rizen	no you don't	01:32
@rizen	you just have to understand that i'm not going to lawyer you on words	01:32
SynQ	is this line: (11:40:21 PM) SynQ: rizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response?	01:32
@rizen	and you shouldn't lawyer me on them	01:32
SynQ	not asking for your reaction?	01:32
SynQ	can we start over then, right from 11:40 ?	01:33
@rizen	sure	01:33
SynQ	rizen, what did you think about my reaction to your request on comments on the new style?	01:33
@rizen	i cannot respond to that without creating a flame war	01:33
@rizen	=)	01:34
SynQ	I haven't read that in the thread yet and I kind of expected	01:34
SynQ	ok	01:34
SynQ	I kiss you	01:34
@rizen	now i have koen cooties	01:34
SynQ	let me ask you something else	01:34
@rizen	incidentally both myself and one of the designers have responded to the list	01:35
@rizen	maybe not directly to your comments	01:35
@rizen	but we have	01:35
@rizen	so you know we are reading	01:35
SynQ	next time you ask for a reaction to anything, do you want just an 'hey that is cool' reaction or do you prefer my in detail response like I did now?	01:35
SynQ	I'm just trying to help you know	01:35
@rizen	whether you give a detailed response, or not is not my concern. However, the more detailed your response the more likely you are to affect change.	01:36
SynQ	I don't even mind if something I suggest is not going to be used	01:36
@rizen	So if you want to affect change, then give a detailed response.	01:36
SynQ	I want to help	01:36
@rizen	Great	01:37
SynQ	I get the impression that you still have the feeling that I allways want to put things to my hand, get them to be the way I wan't them to be, but that is not true	01:37
SynQ	I just want to help	01:37
SynQ	I'm just a boy whose intentions are good, o lord please don't let me be misunderstood	01:37
@rizen	BTW, since you're lawyering me I should note that nowhere in my statement did it say that I would personally respond to anything, or that anyone else would. Only that we wanted feedback, and we'd do our best to assimilate it.	01:38
SynQ	ah	01:38
@rizen	he	01:38
SynQ	I would like to react to that	01:38
SynQ	I think that a forum, by it's very name tries to be an analogue of the old greek marketplace where people discuss stuff. In such I think that it is a place for discussion, the term discussionboard also points in that direction. I feel that if someone asks for feedback, it is only respectfull if they then are interested in that feedback. And that they express that respect in engaging in the discussion they asked for themselves.	01:40
* SDuensin thinks we need a sister channel... #WebPooey		01:40
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SynQ	I'm going to re-read your first post now	01:40
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SynQ	SDuensin: I think that is unfair and rude too	01:41
SynQ	rizen: you are right	01:42
SynQ	you did say you where going to try to assimilate it	01:42
SynQ	perhaps I should have understood in advance that it was not possible to have a real discussion on it	01:43
SynQ	but somehow I keep expecting it	01:43
@rizen	hehe	01:43
SynQ	I keep believing	01:43
@rizen	i didn't say that there wouldn't be a real discussion on	01:43
@rizen	it	01:43
@rizen	only that i wouldn't be participating in it	01:44
@rizen	if the designers want to comment they are certainly capable of doing so	01:44
@rizen	i didn't direct them not to	01:44
SynQ	with real discussion I mean that the community would be really involved in the descisions on the design	01:44
@rizen	that's design by committed	01:44
SynQ	I think you should go even further	01:44
@rizen	committee	01:44
@rizen	which doesn't work	01:44
SynQ	and direct them to do so	01:44
@rizen	ultimately there has to be a decision maker	01:44
SynQ	I agree	01:44
@rizen	and that person is going to be mego