WebGUI irc logs from: 2009-03.log

--- Log opened Sun Mar 01 00:00:01 2009
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+perlDreamerpreaction: format: query, nature: codeReview: response: availability00:26
@preactionformat: response; re: codeReview; content: I am currently available, ask forth your question00:26
+perlDreamerIt's just the first pass, but all feedback is appreciated.00:29
@preactioni would try to break out as much JS as possible into a seperate .js file (preferably under yui-webgui)00:29
+perlDreamerwith AJAXI18n, there's no reason the whole thing can't be a separate JS file00:30
@preactionso then you just call something like "var ah = new WebGUI.AssetHistory();"00:30
@preactionyeah, that too00:30
@preactionit makes it more of an application, and far more useful00:30
@preactionso even if the Perl code changes completely, the JS can be used later (in the new admin console)00:31
+perlDreamer"new" admin console?00:31
@preactionwe've been talking about it at the WUC since 7.500:31
@preactioneven showed screenshots00:31
* perlDreamer is drawing a blank. Do you have a URL for video/presentation?00:33
@preactionit was one of JT's keynotes00:34
@preactionlast year's keynote, i believe00:34
@preactionotherwise, if i'm mistaken, then there will eventually be a new admin interface00:34
+perlDreameraside from getting chocolate in the peanut butter, any other suggestions?00:36
@preactionyou might want to change www_manage to www_view instead, just for consistency's sake00:37
@preactionand run it through perltidy00:37
@preactionotherwise, looks great00:38
+perlDreamerI was thinking it returned too much data, from the getHistoryAsJson00:38
+perlDreamerand some date formatting00:39
@preactionnot really. i would want more data personally, like exactly what changed (we don't really keep records of that though)00:39
+perlDreamerno, just the actionTaken set of options00:39
@preactionthough it would be possible to do a compare of the available revisions in the future if someone wants that feature00:40
@preactioni like that it exposes this feature we've always had and nobody knew about00:40
@preactionit might stir some good ideas in the community00:40
+perlDreameryeah, I've been telling people about it for a while, but it's hard for the average admin to use.00:40
@preactionoh. you should add a tab to the admin console about this. you should also add a different privilege group to the Settings page00:41
@preactionthe "12" magic number shouldn't be used00:41
@preactionthough that's only my opinion, which is subject to overrule00:42
+perlDreamerI think you're right.  I used 12 as a placeholder for lack of anything better.00:42
+perlDreamerWhat do you think about a date range search option?00:42
@preactionhow much data really gets returned? if it's more than 50 rows, then probably yes00:43
@preactioni hate date range searches though, maybe let the user input a date and search +/- 5 days? or 7 days? or something like that00:43
@preactionwell, that's just an idea. not sure i like that idea either00:44
+perlDreamerit only returns 50 rows, but it seems wasteful to send the whole user table when only the username is used00:44
@preactionthen get: assetHistory.*,users.username <-00:45
@preactioninstead of *00:45
+perlDreamerthat's easier than typing all the columns by hand :)00:45
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perlDreamer1one last question, preaction.  Do you think it's RFE-able for 7.7, or should I just put it into the Bazaar?00:55
@preactioni think it's RFE-able for 7.7 myself00:55
perlDreamer1I'll submit an RFE w/patch after I get all the tidying up done on it.00:56
perlDreamer1thanks, preaction!00:57
perlDreamer1time for me to crawl up into the attic :/00:57
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9688 /translations/Russian/ (78 files in 2 dirs): Update from translation server20:30
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xdangercan the commit approval workflow be changed per group or per user somehow?01:41
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9689 /translations/Russian/ (37 files in 2 dirs): Update from translation server01:57
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elninohi!  I think somewhere along the lines, the paypal payment module is scheduled for some release, anyone privy to when that may be?02:16
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elninohi. wondering if there is any word on the paypal module, I thought it was scheduled for 7.7, is that still correct?05:19
@preactionelnino: as far as i know, yes06:37
elninoAnd that is June or something right?06:38
elninopreaction, if I start writing one, is there anyone that would be willing to review my work?06:39
elninomaybe we can get it in sooner?06:40
@preactioni believe martin kamerbeek is writing one right now, you might want to coordinate with him using the dev mailing list06:40
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elninook. Thanks preaction.   what is his name here?06:51
elninooh that's right.  06:53
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CIA-46WebGUI: yung * r9690 /WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): added edit link to matrix listing view12:25
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ryuu_roHi all14:42
+BartJolnot him14:42
ryuu_roi have this form which executes a query on some tables14:42
ryuu_roI process the form with $sessin->form->process14:43
ryuu_robut when I enter 0 in my form field the form var doesn't get processed14:43
ryuu_roalso form->param doesn't do the trick14:44
ryuu_rois this a bug?14:44
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+BartJolryuu_ro: if you copied it,  $sessin->form->process doesn't seem spelled right15:52
ryuu_royeah that's just a typo15:53
+BartJoljust making sure15:53
ryuu_roI understand why it isn't being processed but I don't think that it shouldn't15:53
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BartJo1morning scott17:29
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xdangercan the commit approval workflow be changed per group or per user somehow?17:35
BartJo1it should be possible in 7.617:38
BartJo1evry user has a version tag workflow in the profile17:39
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+perlmonkey2I want to add the ability to do site wide default question group definition editing.  This would not be Survey specific, but system wide.  So that editing the question groups would change them for the site.  This is just for the pre-defined multiple choice question groups.  Anyone have an idea how to go about this?  Should it be an editor in the Admin Console?  An editor on each survey instance?  18:14
+perlDreamerIf it's Survey specific, I'd say a link on each Survey.18:20
+perlDreamerthat way, anyone who can edit a survey can get to it18:20
+perlDreamerkind of like the Style Wizard for templates.18:20
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+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: well it is more to be site wide.  To give CM's a place to alter the default question types.18:41
+perlmonkey2The ones I put in there were pretty specific to the US and to Sociology.  18:42
+perlDreamerthe Admin Console keeps growing, so if it's something just to tweak 1 asset, I still think it belongs in the Asset.18:42
+perlDreamerof course, /me is a strongly opinionated IRC squatter, so what does he know?18:46
BartJo1perlDreamer: you have a bed in the IRC channel?18:50
+perlDreamerI sleep on that bench over there18:51
rizen_put it into the survey18:51
BartJo1didn't loom that way yet18:52
rizen_make it a menu option18:52
rizen_and just don't link it to a specific asset id18:52
rizen_and on the page, state that these are global question group types18:52
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+perlmonkey2rizen: sounds groovy.18:56
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+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: drove through West Oklahoma, the Panhandle of Texas, and East New Mexico last week.  Gigawatts of wind farms through that way.  Just whole horizons full of the things, absolutely beautiful.  And now I've got the wind turbine bug again in a bad way.  Thinking of going against personal policy and just buying a welder brand new.18:59
+perlDreamersometimes, sacrifices must be made in the name of progress.18:59
+perlDreamermaybe welders hold their value so well that they don't drop in price quickly over time19:00
+perlDreamerI wish the Stock Market was that way...19:00
+perlmonkey2Yeah, 13 year lows and dropping.19:00
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9691 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/upgrade_7.6.14-7.7.0.pl: Add column for approval workflow.19:01
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9692 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 19:01
CIA-46WebGUI: Add methods for creating and getting date specific folders below the Archive for19:01
CIA-46WebGUI: holding stories. With tests.19:01
CIA-46WebGUI: Code for the approval workflow for stories.19:01
+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: heh, maybe instead of holding gold, people should hold welders.  As the good ones really don't seem to lose much value.19:01
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+perlDreamerrizen: Kathy got a letter from OHSU.19:26
+perlDreamerShe's on the alternates list this year19:26
+perlDreamerso there's a chance she may get in19:26
@rizentell her congrats for me19:28
+perlDreamerI will19:28
deafferretPhD in Perl?19:29
+perlDreamercertified nurse/midwife19:29
deafferretw/ a Perl specialty?19:29
+perlDreamerno, the program is deficient that way.19:30
+perlDreamerI have her signed up for special tutoring19:30
deafferretnurse! zero-width negative look-behind assertion! stat!19:31
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9693 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/_NewAsset.skeleton: Fix POD/whitespace issues.20:03
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+perlDreamerit's scary when you can start writing phrases with 22 characters in them, give or take a character21:31
+perlDreamerdeafferret, I'm thinking of going for a run.  What are you eating today?21:37
@preactioni'll eat chicken parmesan for him21:40
@preactionheavy on the parmesan21:40
+perlDreamerthat sounds like at least a medium run21:43
* perlmonkey2 thanks WebGUI for tabforms.21:57
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+perlDreamerMech422Home: howdy :)22:17
Mech422Homehi :-)22:17
Mech422HomeUggh - I hate apache22:18
+perlDreamerdo you like some other server better?22:20
Mech422Homenginx looks promising22:22
Mech422Homeapache is just too 'kitchen sink' - too many knobs, too much to go wrong22:22
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SynQhi there22:27
SynQis github broken?22:29
+perlDreamerit would appear so.22:29
+perlDreamerthat's what they get for writing it in ruby22:30
SynQthat is what I dreaded by putting the WebGUI repository in a 3th party's hands22:32
SynQwe had that with sf.net22:32
SynQnow we are going to get it with github.com22:33
+perlDreamersince it's git, it's only really a problem when you want to do a pull from github.com22:33
+perlDreamercommits are fine22:33
SynQI am not sure I think that makes it more workable22:34
SynQit's always a problem when you want to collaborate22:34
SynQfor instance22:34
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SynQI want to see if JT has done any work on wre in the git repo22:34
SynQbut I cant22:34
SynQsince github.com is offline22:34
SynQgit.webgui.org would be a far better place22:35
SynQsince that would be under direct control of plainblack22:35
@rizeni haven't yet22:35
@rizenwe're sticking with svn for wre until 1.0 comes out22:35
@rizenwhich should be this week22:35
@rizenor next22:35
SynQok nice22:35
@rizenif all goes according to plan22:36
SynQI wanted to verify if I indeed created a github account22:36
SynQgraham allready asked me22:36
SynQrizen: do you develop the WRE on your personal mac or on a linux box?22:36
SynQand: do you know if the wre HEAD still compiles on your systems after the changes I did?22:37
@rizeni do it on my mac22:38
@rizenand i'll be finding out shortly whether it does or not22:38
@rizenstill trying to work through some bugs in your sources .sh files22:38
SynQI have it up and running now at host003.procolix.com22:38
SynQwhat kind of bugs?22:38
@rizen2009-03-02 11:15:36 ERROR 404: Not Found.22:38
@rizentar (child): POE-Component-Client-DNS-1.02.tar.gz: Cannot open: No such file or directory22:38
@rizentar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now22:38
@rizentar: Child returned status 222:38
@rizentar: Error exit delayed from previous errors22:38
@rizenmirror might be down or something22:39
SynQchange the MIRROR variable on top of that file22:39
SynQto the cpan.org line22:39
@rizenwell it's not the mirror itself22:39
SynQthat is commented in top of it22:39
@rizencuz other files come down fine22:39
SynQah ok22:39
SynQI had that too22:39
@rizeni'm just wondering if that mirror is missing some files22:39
@rizenor whatever22:39
@rizeni'm lookinginto it22:39
SynQit's one of the mirrors that is not completely up to date22:39
SynQthe best thing would be to let CPAN do the downloading of that particular file22:40
SynQI wanted to ask you if you agree on this:....22:40
SynQwe want to release a WRE that has exactly that set of modules that we tested and approved not newer or older ones, right?22:40
@rizenwhich is why cpan can't be allowed to download anything22:41
SynQthat is why I created that downloadscript22:41
@rizenwe must do it22:41
SynQbut we might be able to use the CPAN module to download particular versions of perl modules from the perl mirrors22:41
SynQthat might solve the error-checking right away22:42
SynQbtw: http://host003.procolix.com 22:43
SynQWebGUI 7.6.13 running on WRE HEAD :)22:43
SynQwhat I could do is tar my entire sources tree and put them in http://host003.procolix.com/uploads/somewhere.tar22:44
SynQadmin 123qwe22:44
SynQgo ahead :)22:44
SynQthat is not cool. This is: http://dev.anxietyonline.org.au/22:45
SynQthat is served by a cluster of 6 virtual machines22:45
SynQ2 loadbalancers LVS, 2 apache servers (modperl, modproxy) and 2 mysql servers (one in slave mode)22:45
+perlDreamerare you hosting that, SynQ?22:46
SynQperlDreamer: no I built it22:46
SynQit is running on vm's in australia22:47
+perlDreamerI see22:47
SynQor at least by an australian based company22:47
SynQI am hosting this: http://www.loopsetshop.com22:47
Mech422HomeSynQ: Hmm - lvs is still the load balancer of choice ?22:47
Mech422HomeI'm assuming thats to avoid s.p.o.f. and not for load balancing reasons ?22:48
SynQMech422Home: actually I'd prefer a netscaler22:48
SynQassumption is the mother of all error22:49
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9694 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Story code. Added validParent, storage location code.22:49
SynQMech422Home: what alternative would you use then?22:49
Mech422HomeI don't have s.p.o.f. worries - we usually just use pound22:50
Mech422HomeI use varnish for caching - that can load balance if you don't need fancy sessioning22:50
Mech422Homeperlbal is supposed ot be good too, right ?22:50
SynQhold on a moment22:51
SynQpound is not really a load balancer22:51
+perlDreamerwhat is SPOF?22:51
Mech422Homeits a proxy load balancer - but how is that not a 'real' load balancer? 22:52
SynQit's more of spraying reverse proxy22:52
Mech422Homesingle point of failure22:52
SynQa 'real' loadbalancer does nothing with the content22:52
SynQhave you read the LVS manual?22:52
Mech422Homesynq: pound doesn't do anything with it unless you ask (sticky sessions)22:52
Mech422Homenot in about 5 years22:53
Mech422Homewhich is why I asked22:53
Mech422Homepound is the 'de facto' standard for zope/plone - so I've used that for close to 10 years now..22:53
Mech422HomeI haven't looked at lvs or ultramonkey or any of that in ages22:53
SynQI would use LVS for any22:54
SynQultramonkey again is something completely different22:54
SynQvarnish I don't know about and perlbal is also a proxy22:54
SynQlet me put it this way...22:55
+MrHairgreaseanbody had trouble using yui's datatable22:55
+MrHairgreaseand get this error?22:55
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease: every day :(22:55
Mech422Homeyes, proxy and load balancer are not mutually exclusive22:55
+MrHairgrease invalid 'instanceof' operand DS    if(oDataSource && (oDataSource instanceof DS)) {22:55
SynQif you really want to build a load balanced cluster you want a combination of LVS, Heartbeat, MySQL with replication, a reverse proxy, multiple modperl hosts, a dedicated spectre server and perhaps some more caching layers22:56
Mech422HomeI tend to think of lvs when you need stuff like open connection support - forwarding tcp/ip connections, etc.22:56
Mech422Homeumm - yeah, assuming you use all that :-)22:56
SynQand you want to have that too22:56
SynQso your question is a bit strange22:56
Mech422HomeI generally don't run mysql or perl - webgui is new to me - my main biz. is plone22:57
SynQif you really want a loadbalancer22:57
SynQyou use a loadbalancer22:57
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease, can you paste some code?22:57
SynQand not a proxy22:57
Mech422Homeumm - whatever - yer getting pendantic :-P22:57
SynQand if you want I loadbalancer I would recommend LVS22:57
SynQit is really the best22:57
SynQnow let's discuss proxies :)22:57
+MrHairgreaseyeah, I was doing that: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m42f9594f22:58
Mech422Homeyes, a $20K hardware load balancer would be nice, but if I don't need spof support, the proxy based solutions work fine :-)22:58
SynQI woul like to use nginx22:58
+MrHairgreaseline 7 triggers the error22:58
SynQLVS does not cost $20K22:58
Mech422HomeI realize that...22:58
SynQand if you don't need spof support a proxy still is not the same as a loadbalancer22:59
Mech422Homeplease don't lecture - I know my biz - your needs seem to be different, thats all22:59
SynQIt's not about your bizz22:59
SynQI kiss you :)22:59
SynQa loadbalancer cannot be 'proxy based'23:00
SynQa proxy is something else23:00
@rizenMech422: don't take it personally. SynQ is just annoying by nature23:00
Mech422Homerizen: so I see23:00
SynQindeed so23:00
SynQmartin can vouch for that too :P23:00
+MrHairgreaseperldreamer: forgot to include a line, this one's right: http://webgui.pastebin.com/ma540a0d23:00
@rizenat last year's wuc he got under my skin so bad that i ended up shouting at him in front of a dozen people in one of the sessions i was leading at the wuc23:01
SynQrizen: how is your opinion on experimenting with nginx instead of apache for modproxy23:01
SynQthat was adorable JT :)23:01
+MrHairgreaserizen: next time shout with your fist =)23:01
+MrHairgreasesomething else won't make him stop =)23:02
@rizeni have no idea what nginx is, but in general there would have to be some absolutely amazing advantages to make me consider switching away from modproxy23:02
SynQthat is not true martin and you know it :P23:02
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease: is it still line 7 that is the problem?, or now 15?23:02
Mech422Homerizen: nginx servers about 25% of v hosts on the net now..according to their site23:02
SynQrizen: one absolutely amazing advantage is that with nginx you can tell the proxy to give only so much bandwith per client23:03
+MrHairgreaseteh error comes from deep in the DataTable source 23:03
@rizenjust because most of the world uses it, doesn't make it great though. look at IE for example.23:03
Mech422Homerizen: touche :-)23:03
Mech422Homerizen: so is varnish cache out of the question too ?23:03
SynQmaking it a lot more difficult for one user to saturate the entire webserver23:03
@rizenthat's a pretty cool feature23:04
Mech422Homerizen: its a lot faster then squid for man cases23:04
SynQMech422: what is the url for that varnish stuff?23:04
+perlDreamerMech422Home, that's 25% of the vservers in Russia, unless I misread that23:04
SynQrizen: nginx has a smaller memory footprint than apache (much) since it has a different threading model23:05
SynQI don't care how much servers it runs on23:05
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease: do you have connection-min loaded?23:05
Mech422Homesynq: http://varnish.projects.linpro.no/23:05
SynQbut it's nice that at least some sites use it :)23:05
SynQMech422: thanks23:05
+MrHairgreaseperlDreamer: yup23:05
SynQvarnish doesn't run on mac?23:06
Mech422Homeperldreamer: Hmm - could be - I seem to recall seein it was 25% total though - maybe netcraft or something23:06
Mech422HomeSynQ: given its 'c' - I have no clue23:06
Mech422Homephk is an fbsd legend though - so it should23:06
+MrHairgreaseperldreamer: http://webgui.pastebin.com/d51c4353623:07
+MrHairgreasethe error comes from line 441623:07
+MrHairgreaseso maybe I'm borking my DataSource23:07
+MrHairgreasechecking on that23:07
SynQjt: source of all is here: http://host003.procolix.com/uploads/source.tgz23:08
SynQit's 431M23:08
@rizensynq, can it still do all the stuff modproxy can do? like url rewrites, ssl, setting cache headers, etc?23:08
@rizeni have the source down, but thanks23:08
SynQyes it can23:08
SynQok great23:09
@rizenthen we can talk about it for wre 1.123:09
SynQsure thing23:09
@rizenas for 1.0 i just want to get the damn thing out the door23:09
SynQindeed 23:09
SynQ64 bits?23:09
@rizenthat's the goal23:09
SynQor is even that optional?23:09
@rizenif i can't make it 64 bits by the end of the week, then i'm going to release it as 0.923:09
@rizencuz we need a release23:09
SynQgood plan23:09
@rizenand i can't release it as 1.0 until it's 64 bit23:10
SynQif you do release it as 0.923:10
SynQI'm going to update it bi-weekly with updated perl modules if available23:10
SynQas 0.9.1 and 0.9.2 etc23:10
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease, http://webgui.pastebin.com/d631c522323:11
@rizenwhy SynQ ?23:11
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease: maybe it doesn't like the XHRDataSource?23:12
SynQto keep up with security releases23:12
SynQa security hole in one of the things that webgui runs on is a bad thing23:12
SynQthat problem should be attended to23:13
SynQand I'm willing to do that23:13
@rizenok, but the problem is that you're likely introducing more bugs than you're fixing23:13
@rizenif you're updating all the modules23:13
@rizenupdating just the ones that have security problems is one thing23:13
@rizenbut updating all of them is something else23:13
SynQI will run the complete test-bed after each update and before committing23:13
+perlDreamerSynQ: the tests do not fully cover WebGUI23:14
@rizenthat's not enough23:14
+perlDreamerhand testing each type of asset is still required23:14
Mech422Homeouch - that sounds like a bitch23:14
+perlDreameryou need to unleash your horde of programmers on writing tests23:14
@rizenthat's why doing what you're talking about is not a good idea23:14
+MrHairgreaseperlDreamer: perhaps, but I built this according to the documentation23:14
SynQonly modules that have security problems then?23:15
+MrHairgreaseI'm trying to find out how to get data out of a DS23:15
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease: I was just looking at this: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/datatable/dt_xhrjson.html23:15
+MrHairgreasethat way I can check whether I have data or not23:15
+perlDreamerI've seen some kind of a callback for that23:17
@rizenthat would be fine SynQ 23:17
SynQI'll release an 'experimental' WRE and a 'stable' one23:17
+perlDreamermaybe it was in the AssetManager?23:17
+perlDreamerbelieve it or not, if no data is sent the DataTable will do the right thing23:17
SynQlearning how to write tests seems like a bit of a steep learning curve for me23:18
SynQyou need the entire WebGUI api to be able to use that23:19
+perlDreamerSynQ, not always.  The idea is not to get overwhelmed with the whole task, but to pick one thing and test it.23:20
+perlDreamerand then to test another23:20
+perlDreamerand another23:20
+perlDreamerlots and lots of small steps23:20
+perlDreamerit's parallelizable23:20
SynQrizen: if you make sure you check in to svn regularly I can run multiple compile runs regularly23:20
SynQperlDreamer: ok23:21
Mech422Homeis there a buildbot type thing for perl ?23:21
Mech422Homean automated builder/tester ?23:21
+perlDreamerMech422Home, _for_ perl, for perl type projects, or _in_ perl?23:21
+perlDreamerI hear some people use smolder23:21
+perlDreamerand tinderbox23:22
Mech422Homefor perl type projects23:22
Mech422Homepython projects pretty much use buildbot 23:22
Mech422Homeit's sorta the 'standard' - is there one for perl ?  hmm - I'll have to look that up23:23
Mech422Homewould it make sense to put up 'smolder' instances for wG ?23:23
Mech422HomeI can rig up a vm for it..maybe get 2 or 3 of them going at different places so we don't have a 'github' type issue ?23:23
+perlDreamerwith lots of them, we'd need a good aggregator.  I think smolder will do that, too.23:24
Mech422Homeprolly don't need lots - but 2 or 3 so you can always see one...23:25
Mech422HomeperlDreamer: ok - smack me upside the head later if I don't give you an ip23:25
Mech422Homei.p. address23:26
Mech422Homefor smolder/vm23:26
Mech422HomeI'll have to figure out smolder first though23:26
+perlDreameryou sound like you know your way around.  The fun part will be getting it to play well with the WRE23:26
+perlDreamereach one wants its own private set of modules23:26
Mech422Homeahh - so 1 smolder can test multiple 'versions' of the wre ?23:28
+perlDreamerI wouldn't think so.23:28
Mech422Homeoh - then whats with the 'each one' above ??23:28
Mech422Homewont there just be one wre thats being tested ? (with one set of private modules?)23:28
+perlDreamersmolder has a "private" cache of perl modules that it prefers to use.  The WRE also has a private cache of modules.23:29
+perlDreameras long as smolder resets the paths correctly, it should not be a problem23:29
* perlDreamer quits procrastinating, and goes running.23:30
+perlDreamercue deafferret for counter-balancing food commentary23:30
SynQoff to bed23:38
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--- Day changed Tue Mar 03 2009
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@preactionanyone on the WRE right now can confirm that i'm not going completely nuts?00:28
@preactionif your WebGUI is in /data/WebGUI, go to /data and do "wreservice.pl --restart modperl"00:28
@preactionsince "." is in the @INC, WebGUI tries to load: WebGUI::lib::WebGUI::Asset and WebGUI::lib::WebGUI::Pluggable and etc...00:29
@Haargi would expect that to happen though, yeah00:36
@preactionafaik it never caused problems before, now it refuses to start the server00:37
@preactionlet me find the exact error00:37
@preactionand this is probably my fault00:37
+perlDreamerIt's March, preaction, everything is your fault00:38
@preactionhow it that different from February?00:38
+perlDreamerFebruary it's khenn's turn00:38
+perlDreamerI have November00:38
@preactionsure, give khenn the smallest month...00:38
@Haargactually, last time i saw that preaction was when there was a /WebGUI directory00:40
@Haargbecause apache will chdir /00:40
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9695 /wrebuild/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 00:41
CIA-46WebGUI: removed subversion, swig, and neon00:41
CIA-46WebGUI: added notes about libgomp for rhel500:41
CIA-46WebGUI: updated PoCo DNS and PoCo HTTP00:41
CIA-46WebGUI: added rsync, ncurses, and readline00:41
@Haargi wonder if we should remove '.' from the lib path in mod_perl00:46
@preactioni can't see any good reason why it should be in there00:51
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+perlDreamerawesome patspam interview01:01
+perlDreameranyone who says WebGUI needs more tests is okay in my book01:01
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patspamheh thanks perlDreamer01:02
+perlDreamerand while we're on the subject, somebody needs to voice our new PBWG in channel01:03
+perlDreameroh, you know.  One of the Plain Black staff people with the leetle askerisks next to their names01:03
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* patspam jumps for joy01:03
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@HaargperlDreamer, i'm planning on changing wgd reset so options are always set in order of usage, so that 'wgd reset --no-uploads --dev' would recreate uploads but 'wgd reset --no-uploads --dev' would.01:30
@Haargdoes that seem reasonable?01:30
+perlDreamerit allows for overriding, so yes01:30
@Haargmain reason is to allow for profiles to be overridden because currently they can't be01:31
+perlDreamerthat'll be nice.  that way you won't have to write dozens of profiles, just one or two that can be overridden/extended with a few options01:32
@Haargi really need to start working on some api docs soon.  i've tried to make it simple to use, but that means many parts aren't obvious if you are just reading the code.01:32
+perlDreamerover the weekend, I found myself wanting to type wgd restart http01:33
+perlDreamerwhich would look in the config file for commands to restart apache01:33
+perlDreamerso it would work with or without the WRE01:33
@Haargwouldn't be a bad idea01:33
@Haargi have a shell script for that01:33
@Haargsince the wreservice script does extra verification that i don't want or need01:34
+perlDreamerwhenever I restart apache, I always wipe the webgui log01:34
+perlDreamerservice httpd stop; echo '' > /var/log/webgui.log; service httpd start01:34
+perlDreamertyping !service works well01:34
+perlDreameruntil I muck with some other service01:34
CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop autotest * r966a0af / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm : Set directory mode correctly for systems with a max umask of 0777 - http://bit.ly/U8MwD01:40
CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop master * r6092f7b / lib/WGDev/Command/Base.pm : more flexible command line parsing - http://bit.ly/Y04K01:40
CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop autotest * rcffc054 / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm : Merge branch 'master' into autotest - http://bit.ly/sXxPC01:40
CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop master * r64e5fd0 / lib/WGDev/Command/Reset.pm : 01:40
CIA-46wgdev: clean up argument parsing allowed by Base.pm changes01:40
CIA-46wgdev: Options are set based on their order on the command line. Later options01:40
CIA-46wgdev: override earlier options, including --dev style and --profile style. - http://bit.ly/4lvZcf01:40
CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop master * rb083bba / lib/WGDev.pm : Also load libs from preload.custom - http://bit.ly/84kr301:40
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@preactionperlDreamer: do !?service httpd01:56
@preactionor even just !?httpd01:56
+perlDreamer!?   ??01:56
@preaction? = search the entire line for this string01:56
@preactionso !?httpd will look for the last line to have "httpd" in it01:57
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+perlDreamerthis is very cool: http://www.omnipotent.net/jquery.sparkline/02:47
+perlDreamerand for me to say something like that about javascript, you know it's gotta be true02:48
SDuensinperlDreamer, you're easily amused.  :-P02:55
SDuensinI show you guys Cappuccino and you're like, "eh".02:55
+perlDreamerdid you see the little realtime javascript graph of mouse speed?02:55
SDuensinperlDreamer - http://280atlas.com/02:58
+perlDreamerthis is a video?   Did they make that with javascript.03:05
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9696 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Test adding children, along with automatically adding folders.03:05
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9697 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm t/Asset/Story.t): Add JSON handling, and move code form addRevision to update.03:05
SDuensinperlDreamer - Look at what their library does.  It's amazing.03:05
+perlDreamerI'll watch the video later.  Right now a violent, impatient 9-year old is clamoring for metro train videos03:06
SDuensinUh, ok.03:06
* perlDreamer wears many hats03:07
@preactionit's like xcode for webapps03:09
+perlDreamerasking about xcode at this point would be ironic, yes?03:10
SDuensinThey've basically implemented Cocoa.03:10
@preactionxcode is how you write OS X applications03:10
SDuensinAnd "Objective-J".03:10
SDuensinwww.280slides.com was written with it.03:10
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@preactionit'd be interesting to see this backed by Thingy03:12
@preactionuse this to build interfaces for Thingy data03:12
SDuensinHell yea.03:12
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* deafferret eats many hats03:32
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+perlDreamerI missed ya today, deafferret04:05
+perlDreamerpreaction had to eat some parmesan chicked because you were absent04:05
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deafferretperlDreamer: Mondays are rough for IRC04:40
+perlDreamerlots of meetings?04:41
deafferretya. 2 work locations, meetings all afternoon04:41
deafferretI get some work done before 1pm, then not so much04:42
+perlDreamersince starting my business, the number of meetings had dropped considerably04:42
deafferrethow do people waste your time if you're the boss?04:46
+patspamdoes anyone know if there a good reason for wre perl to be compiled without threads support?04:47
+perlDreamerdeafferret, I have children04:49
+perlDreamerpatspam: would it interfere/clash with mod_perl/apache?04:50
+patspamI'm wondering that too..04:50
+perlDreameralthough, perl -V on fedora says that it has a threaded perl04:51
+patspamthreads were "new and to be treated with caution" in 5.8, but supposedly stable and only 2% slower these days04:51
+patspamyeah i think all the distros are moving to threaded perl now04:51
+perlDreamerpatspam, what do you develop and host on?04:51
+patspamit might just be a wre legacy thing04:51
+patspami use wre perl04:52
+patspamubuntu on my dev box04:52
+perlDreamerI figure I'm the only person nuts enough to not use the wre04:52
deafferretg'night all04:52
+patspamyou use 5.10, that's awesome04:52
+perlDreamerlater, deafferret04:52
* perlDreamer wants to use say, ~~, switch and all the other goodies04:53
+patspamyeah, i'm dying to use them too04:53
+patspamI'll ask the list. I'm sure riven and synq know04:55
+perlDreameryeah, maybe Haarg, too04:55
* perlDreamer switches to Dad mode05:00
+perlDreamercatch y'all later :)05:00
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+BartJolnice interview Patrick11:17
+patspamthanks Bart :)11:24
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CIA-46WebGUI: brian * r9698 /branch/crop/lib/WebGUI/ (Asset/File/Image.pm Storage.pm i18n/English/Asset_Image.pm): checkpoint13:25
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CIA-46WebGUI: brian * r9699 /branch/crop/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm: checkpoint17:14
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+BartJolkhenn: I posted a macro for your rfe http://www.webgui.org/rfe/request-for-enhancement/add-quotsite-rankingsquot-to-karma17:38
@khennI think I submitted that a few years back17:39
+BartJolit kinda works17:39
@khennyeah seems to be missing the stars17:39
+BartJolbut you need to take care of all the files and groupId17:39
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+BartJolbut I don't know pb's staff groupId17:39
+BartJoland there is more karma nowadays17:40
+BartJolbut to give all those variables as parameters, seemed a bit odd to me17:40
+BartJoloh, and khenn don't minde the part where all the db and ssh data is e-mailed to me, it's not important17:42
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+BartJoltavisto: now I'm starting to get impatient17:44
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+BartJolwho does receive messages from posts on the rfe list? I think one can be closed18:28
@Haargwhich one?18:28
+BartJolwait, maybe I'm wrong18:31
+BartJolyeah, I am, again, I'm starting to bug me18:31
+BartJolsorry Haarg18:31
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+BartJoljust wishfull thinking18:32
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+perlDreamerhaven't read this one yet, but I will later today18:42
+perlDreamerComparing usability in wordpress and joomla18:42
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@Haargvery odd18:56
@Haargevery time i run the full test suite, t/ProfileCategory.t fails18:56
@Haargbut if i run it on its own it works18:56
+perlDreamerhave you tried prove -v to figure out exactly what's failing?18:57
@Haargnot yet18:58
+perlDreamerI'll try it on my dev box to see what happens18:58
@Haargthat would be a books worth of output to go through though18:58
+perlDreamerbut when I helped SynQ with the WRE two weeks ago, full test suites were passing18:59
+perlDreamerare you using any switches?18:59
+perlDreamerI'll try a quick run without, and see what that turns up19:00
@Haargthere are a couple test failures i have fixes for19:00
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@Haargre http://www.webgui.org/bugs/tracker/980819:06
@Haargi think there's a typo there, and it it breaks the help test19:06
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+perlDreamerthat's possible, but I thought I ran the i18n and help tests after fixing that19:08
+perlDreamerfor me profileCategory.t fails without the extra switches19:11
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+perlDreamerdumping categories and rerunning19:16
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+perlDreamerHaarg: I changed two things at the same time19:20
+perlDreamer1) added dumping to the ProfileCategories test19:20
+perlDreamer2) Fixed a permission problem on uploads/temp19:20
+perlDreamerthe next test run did not fail with profileCategory.t19:20
+perlDreamerwhich tests do you have fixes for?19:21
@Haargwhich is committed19:21
@Haargand the ad tests19:21
@Haargi'm going to keep looking at ProfileCategory19:21
@Haargif you could look at help i'd appreciate it19:22
+perlDreameryou bet19:22
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SynQ2hi all19:23
+perlDreamerhole, SynQ219:23
SynQ2I was wondering19:23
SynQ2last night JT said that it was unwise to update the perl modules in the WRE when new perl modules are available, since that would introduce more bugs than it would solve.19:24
SynQ2I have thought about that19:24
SynQ2and I think I disagree19:24
+perlDreamerif he were here, he would point out the JSON module as an example of that19:25
* MrHairgrease is nit surpised =)19:25
SynQ2but that was a MAJOR upgrade19:25
SynQ2not a minor one19:25
+perlDreamerthere were problem in the 1.9 series of JSON, as well19:25
SynQ2that was not a bugfix19:25
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SynQ2that was a full upgrade to a different program19:25
SynQ2new features in webgui also introduce more bugs in the beginning than leaving them be would?19:26
SynQ2but I agree on the 'stable' vs. 'experimental' view with JT though19:27
SynQ2which sort of defies the argument :)19:27
+perlDreamerHaarg, it's fixed and committed.  I either missed that, or didn't run the test19:30
+perlDreameris VersionTag.t failing for you?19:31
+perlDreamerI'll rerun it, and try it standalone19:31
@Haargpod on ::ProfileCategory->set says 'Update the profile field properties.  Any property that is missing, or empty will be replaced with a default.'19:35
+perlDreamerthat's not true either, but it's more accurate than what was there.19:37
+perlDreamerthe 3 flags get reset if they are not present19:37
+perlDreamerbut the labels don't19:37
@Haargyou sure?19:38
@Haargreads to me like they get reset if not provided19:38
@Haargwhich is what causes the test to fail19:38
+perlDreamerthen why does it behave differently if you run it standalone?19:39
@Haargit doesn't i don't think19:39
@Haargi think i've just been neglecting to reset between test runs :/19:39
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9700 /WebGUI/t/Asset/Wobject/Survey/SurveyJSON.t: survey test fix19:40
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9701 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Asset_Search.pm: Fix a missing help entry in the i18n for the Search.19:40
SynQ2I would like to see Cache in the configfile turned to 'Database' by default, what are the arguments against that?19:42
@Haargthere are situations where the file cache perfoms better, but i tend to agree that db cache should be default19:43
+perlDreamerI used to think it was good that the tests kind of cross checked one another, but there are times when it is a huge pain19:44
@Haargcommitted profilecategory test fix19:45
+perlDreamerHaarg, that test is "destructive" in that it changes the db config19:47
+perlDreamershould it reset that at the END?19:47
@Haargwhich test?19:47
@Haargyeah, it probably should19:47
+perlDreamerI'll fix that19:48
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SDuensinHey gang, is there a way to allow users edit rights to a page without creating a group for every one of them?19:54
@Haargthey can be set as the owner19:55
@Haargthere can only be one owner of course19:55
SDuensinThen just put them in "Turn Admin On"?19:55
SDuensinOk, cool.  I was headed that way, but figured I'd make sure.19:56
+perlDreamerHaarg, I'm still having wgd reset problems19:58
@Haarghow are they getting set?19:58
+perlDreamerthe uploads/temp is never changed to be group writable19:58
+perlDreamerdrwxr-sr-x 18 apache users 4096 2009-03-03 10:00 temp19:58
@Haargi'm guessing a webgui problem19:59
@Haargsince wgd reset won't create 'temp'19:59
+perlDreamergood point19:59
@Haargand webgui doesn't have that same permissions logic19:59
@tavistoSynQ2, did you get JT's email a few minutes ago?  :)20:00
+perlDreamerthis must happen during the upgrade then20:00
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@tavistoMech422, you around?20:01
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9702 /WebGUI/t/ProfileCategory.t: fix ProfileCategory test misusing the API20:08
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9703 /WebGUI/t/ProfileCategory.t: Restore the original properties for the profile category that was modified for test.20:08
CIA-46WebGUI: koen * r9704 /wrebuild/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Tools for developers in a separate directory.20:08
* perlDreamer goes to the gym20:10
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SynQ2tavisto: my response has been posted just now :)20:18
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SynQ2I was busy looking at it20:18
SynQ2hi Kristy20:19
@tavistowhat do you think?20:19
SynQ2tavisto: http://www.webgui.org/web_design_templates_and_themes/webgui-site-redesign/120:19
SynQ2my first reaction was: 'where do I have to start'20:20
SynQ2they all have so much info in it20:20
SynQ2three clear choices for newcomers20:21
SynQ2not to much butterflies all over the page20:21
SynQ2that I like20:21
SynQ2this is allready a bit less: http://www.typo3.com and gives me the same reaction as the current suggestion in 'webgui-site-redesign'20:22
SynQ2This is a bit too boring for my taste: http://www.opencms.org/en/20:22
SynQ2This is perhaps even better then the joomla site: http://www.opensourcecms.com20:23
SynQ2for a landing page that is20:23
SynQ2For a community portal this is not bad: http://php.opensourcecms.com/ allthough I still think 'IN YOUR FACE' banners suck especially if they move20:24
SynQ2This has the same 'suggested' clockwork http://ariadne.muze.nl/ and has had that for years now20:26
@tavistoack, that looks like something from a mid 90's powerpoint20:26
@tavistoI don't like the typo3 site at all, looks low budget IMO20:27
@tavistoI like joomla's site, and open source cms intro is not real useful20:27
@tavistoit's just a splash with 3 options20:27
SynQ2for a newcomer 3 options is allready a lot :)20:27
@tavistowe are trying to instantly present options to people AND reach out to newbs20:27
SynQ2have you read my post?20:28
@tavistoso maybe we can improve the newbie friendliness20:28
SynQ2if you then look at the joomla site20:28
SynQ2these 3 large things on the top20:28
@tavistoI think the crown is supposed to be the thing that reaches out to the new visitors. But what you are saying is that you didn't see that when the design loaded?20:28
SynQ2that is drawing all your attention to it20:28
SynQ2no I didn't20:28
SynQ2I gather Wg2009spec.jpg is the landingpage?20:29
@tavistoyeah, I understand that, we did the same thing with the 3 categories on our site. However, you're right we did opt to go with a designer section instead of a new visitor section20:29
@tavistoyes, that is the home20:29
SynQ2what I saw there was 'designer' 'community' 'developer'20:29
@tavistoI talked with Mego about whether or not a designer section at the bottom would be as important as having a new visitor section20:29
SynQ2what I missed was 'Right here, right now' I only saw that when I really looked at the page for like 20 seconds20:30
SynQ2that middle section should me more 'in your face'20:30
@tavistogotcha, we'll lets see what other people say and maybe there will be a case for one of the sections to switch to new visitors20:30
SynQ2thus lighter and bigger than the 3 'designer' 'community' 'developer' thing20:30
SynQ2I'll do a mockup of what I mean20:31
SynQ2hang on...20:31
@tavistosure, you should attach it to your post for greater clarification20:31
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@bopbopSynQ2: just read your post, and I love the idea of using a dashboard so users can customize the type of news or updates they want to see20:54
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SynQ2added mockup to the discussion page21:00
SynQ2bopbop: do say that on the disussion in that place21:06
@bopbopyep, will do21:06
SynQ2the more people join in the discussion the better the site will become21:06
SynQ2have you seen my mockup?21:06
SynQ2Obviously I am not a designer21:07
@bopbopI did- JT will say you're trying to copy Joomla, which he won't like :) 21:07
@bopbopI do think it draws attention to those areas nicely21:08
SynQ2I am not trying to copy Joomla21:08
@bopbopit was something the designer was struggling with21:08
SynQ2I would like to copy their method of drawing attention to the 'go next here' way21:08
SynQ2beter stolen well then created poorly21:08
@bopbopI know you're not trying to copy Joomla.... I understand the intention, and I agree that it does a nice job of making it obvious for site users21:09
SynQ2than say that on the discussion :)21:09
@bopbop ok21:09
SynQ2I gotta run21:09
SynQ2driving home to wife and kid21:09
SynQ2I'll be online tonight21:09
SynQ2in an hour or so21:09
+MrHairgreaseis there something like a pastebin for images?21:24
+MrHairgreaseah, imagebin.ca21:25
+MrHairgreaseanybody see the link? http://imagebin.ca/view/KMAetx.html21:25
+MrHairgreasefinally some recognision!21:25
* SDuensin preaches the good word all over!21:37
+MrHairgreasethe weird thing is, though, that in all the comments the word webgui isn't being mentioned as far as i can tell21:38
+MrHairgreaseapart from the tag that is21:38
+perlDreamerMrHairgrease, it must have been a keyword entered by the submitter22:04
+perlDreamerbut, you're right!22:04
+perlDreamerNow, someone with a slashdot account, go talk about WebGUI in that thread!22:05
@preactioni believe in slashdot you can be a normal user and tag articles22:07
+perlDreameris webgui.org down?22:09
* deafferret votes no22:09
@preactionnot for me22:09
@preactionwonderful. WebGUI::User->acceptsPrivateMessages takes a userId, but WebGUI::User->acceptsFriendsRequest takes another WebGUI::User object...22:13
@preactionit also does no validation, so the error shows up in WebGUI::Cache::FileCache22:13
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CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9705 /WebGUI/ (t/AdSpace.t lib/WebGUI/AdSpace/Ad.pm t/AdSpace/Ad.t): fix AdSpace, Ad tests22:17
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9706 /WebGUI/docs/create.sql: preparing for 7.6.14 release22:17
+perlDreamerpreaction: we have to make WebGUI 8 have a common API22:21
@preactionperlDreamer: do you have a dropbox?22:22
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+perlDreamerHaarg, are you in the middle of a release?22:48
+perlDreamerI'm glad I asked :)22:48
@Haargand i'll be branching after that22:48
+perlDreamerit's just a fix for extra debug output in a test22:49
+perlDreamerit'll wait22:49
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9707 /releases/WebGUI_7.6.14-stable: Release 7.6.14-stable23:06
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9708 /branch/WebGUI_7.6: Create branch WebGUI_7.623:06
+perlDreamerboy, it was nice just having one branch for a while...23:10
@preactionheh, i never have less than 7 different webguis on my system, and with git i suspect i'll be branching and merging a lot more23:11
@preactionone? what is this number you speak of?23:12
+MrHairgreasethere, hope that helps23:12
+perlDreamerthat which is singular in nature, yet having a quantity along the real axis23:13
+perlDreamernumber of noses currently on your face23:13
+MrHairgreasepd: it's eins23:15
+perlDreamerit's just my Schwabish accent.  Sorry, MrHairgrease.23:15
+MrHairgreaseI'm not offended23:15
+MrHairgreaseMy German sucks anyway23:16
SDuensinI get this a lot, should I worry?  WebGUI::Operation::Cron::www_runCronJob[295] - Could not create workflow instance for workflowId 'pbworkflow000000000007': It is a singleton workflow and is still running from the last invocation.23:16
+perlDreamerSDuensin, you should find out that that workflow is, and why it's running for so long23:16
+perlDreamerit's likely an email related workflow, and if it can't keep up, you can start to develop a backlog23:17
+perlDreamercall RotoRooter23:17
SDuensinIt is, but I don't think I'm sending that much.23:17
@Haargyes, that is the mail queue workflow23:17
SDuensinmailq says it's empty.23:17
SDuensinRan across that while trying to figure out why my calendar isn't pulling in a feed.23:19
SDuensincan you make a tmpl_loop run backwards?23:41
+perlDreamernot in HTML::Template at least23:45
SDuensinOk.  I'm not entirely sure what this lady is wanting from me anyway.  :-)23:45
+perlDreamerwhat is she trying to do?23:45
SDuensinBeats me.  I've got an online store for her and she wants everything "reversed".23:46
SDuensinI'm assuming she means the order the products are displayed.23:46
SDuensinI flipped 'em in the asset manager.23:46
+perlDreamermuch easier23:47
+perlDreameryou can do that with variants, too, if you have the variant editing controls displayed23:47
SDuensinYea, but she said "reverse it", so I did that.  Now she says "reverse it".  Um.  Ok.23:47
SDuensinDude, don't even get me going on the variants again.  :-P23:48
+perlDreamerlineage is not versioned, so that shouldn't be a problem23:48
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SynQhi there :)00:39
+perlDreamerhe's back!00:41
* preaction hides00:42
SynQI'm just a boy whose intentions are good, o god please don't let me be misunderstood00:45
* SynQ turns away from those unfriendly peoply who make him feel like he is not wanted here00:46
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@preactionsigh... i'm gonna miss him00:46
+perlDreamerdon't feel too bad, he didn't really leave00:51
deafferretyou misunderstood00:51
deafferretright after he told you not to00:51
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@preactionyay! the prodigal sun returns00:52
SynQlet's try that again00:52
SynQhi there :)00:52
SynQI have had a very hard day00:52
SynQand my toes are very easily tred upon right now00:53
@preactionwe love you, really00:53
SynQbut that is not your fault actually00:53
@preactionwe tease because we care00:53
SynQI know00:53
@preactioni know, you're just easy to love00:53
@preactioni try to fight it, but i can't help myself00:53
@preactionWHY OH WHY CAN'T I QUIT YOU00:53
SynQtoday is a day where everything goes wrong00:54
@preactionheh, and that's different from every other day.. how?00:55
SynQin that on other days I still move forward in one way or another00:55
@preactionah, yeah i can see that being an issue00:55
SynQmy car broke down one day before being scheduled for maintenance at the garage00:56
* perlDreamer is sorry, SynQ. It was a poor joke at your expense.00:56
SynQperlDreamer: it's ok00:56
@preactionit's all your fault you insensitive ass00:56
+perlDreamerit's true00:56
SynQI love you both00:56
+perlDreamerAnd I just went and pissed off ehab00:56
SynQto make up for it?00:56
@preactionomg! stop! i can't fix everything!00:56
SynQI know00:57
SynQbut your last post on working at home was really helpfull to me00:57
@preactionheh, but your car had it in for you, seriously ;)00:57
@preactioni told it not to, but it felt like playing a joke00:57
SynQit was just that small tip over the border I needed to set some lines in our household00:57
SynQif I want to work I'm working00:57
SynQlike right now00:58
SynQI still get 30 more minutes to work00:58
@preactionyeah, when i was working in my living room with my gf living here, i wouldn't get any work done until she left00:58
SynQbut you got a lot of action and that is worth someting ;)00:59
@preactionwell, not so much action, which is why i will now amend my comment by saying "ex-gf"00:59
@preactioncan't win them all00:59
@preactioncan't even win most of them00:59
@preactionbut the ones you do win make up for everything01:00
SynQat least I have I very sweet and loving wife and a adorable baby01:00
+perlDreamershe isn't reading over your shoulder, is she?01:00
@preactionmmm raison d'etre01:00
+perlDreamermy wife does that all the time01:00
SynQperlDreamer: she is feeding Emma01:00
SynQso no01:00
@preactionha, she doesn't have to, that's why SynQ is better than us!01:00
SynQshe isn't01:01
@preactionhe doesn't have that mixed awe/fear of his wife, they are equal partners in this journey of life!01:01
@preactionit's all awe, baby!01:01
SynQshe knows I am an open book and always direct so no need to read over my shoulder indeed01:01
@preactionokay, maybe laid it on a bittle thick there01:01
@preactionooh, i made a new word01:01
@preactionwhere's the coffee?01:01
SynQpreaction: well actually01:01
SynQthat sums it up pretty well01:02
@preactionwait, it's after 5p. no more caffiene for me01:02
SynQwhere can I order a sixpack of spotted cow?01:02
@preactionuhh... durno01:03
SynQNew Glarus beer is available only in Wisconsin.01:03
@preactionwe don't have many online grocery stores around here. peepod died pretty quick01:03
SynQsays: http://www.newglarusbrewing.com/Distribution.cfm01:03
SynQthat sucks01:03
@preactionyeah, that too01:03
@preactionthat does suck, more people need the awesomeness that is new glarus beers01:03
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@preactionwhen i'm not getting new glarus, or stuff from the Great Dane (a nice oatmeal stout), i settle for guinness stout01:04
@preactionGreat Dane is even less distributed than New Glarus01:04
SynQwhat county is madison in?01:04
@preactionDane county, WI01:05
SynQah nice01:05
SynQpreaction: do you know hopgoblin?01:06
SynQHobgoblin even01:07
SynQthey have got paddy'sTout01:08
SynQthat is nice too01:08
SynQvery hoppy01:09
@preactionsounds nice01:09
SynQI'm starting to get thirsty01:10
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CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9709 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 4 dirs): preparing for 7.6.15 dev01:57
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9710 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/ (Wobject/StoryArchive.pm Story.pm): Handle the case when purging a story, and there's no storage location.01:57
+perlDreamerare new template variables supposed to be camel case, or underscored?02:23
@preactioni tend to use underscore for categories02:25
@preactionso "url_view" "user_firstName" "exif_cameraType"02:25
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+perlDreamerthanks, preaction.02:30
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9711 /branch/WebGUI_Story/t/Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.t: Tests for StoryArchive view variables.02:34
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9712 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Template help and i18n for the view template.02:34
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@preactioni think we need to have another look at the user profile API03:12
@preactionlist-type fields, $user->profileField('alist') returns the value, but sometimes i will want the label03:12
+perlDreamerisn't that usually i18n'ed?03:13
@preactionif it is, it's not editable by the admin03:13
@preactionthey can't add new options without me03:13
@preactionwhich i think defeats the purpose03:13
+perlDreamerjust what is it that you're trying to do?03:14
@preactionso either i can't program against a list type, or they can't edit the list type03:14
* perlDreamer puts on his suspicious old man developer hat03:14
@preactionthere's a list type, i need to display the value in a template03:14
@preactioner.. i mean the label03:14
@preactionbut that means i have to instantiate the profile field and parse the options, a suboptimal solution03:14
+perlDreamerI think you'll have to do that in any case03:14
@preactionespecially since that means i am essentially tying myself to that profile field type03:15
+perlDreamerit only stores the value03:15
@preactionif it later becomes a text type, my code breaks03:15
+perlDreamerthat is true03:17
+perlDreamerbut how often is "sometimes"?03:18
@preactionanytime i am displaying the value to the end-user03:19
@preactionhowever, when searching, i have to use the internal value03:19
@preaction... even more ugliness03:19
@preactionoh, well, i suppose if they're both the same it doesn't matter03:19
@preactionand if they're not there has to be a damned good reason for it03:19
+perlDreamerin the profile itself, this isn't a problem, since it has access to the possibleValues hash for the list type03:20
+perlDreamerso it's only outside of it that's a problem03:20
+perlDreamerlike the User macro03:20
@preactionand it's only a problem if the admin assigns a key:value pair, instead of just value\nvalue\n03:20
+perlDreamerdoes that work?  I thought all list types were key/value pairs.03:21
@preactionthere are a few different ways of configuring form controls, which i hope to consolidate sometime soon. the most common way is the one the DataForm uses03:22
@preactionwhich allow for values, one per line. or key|value one per line03:22
+perlDreamerit's time for me to take a break03:23
+perlDreamerI keep typing worfklow03:24
@preactionheh, yeah, sounds like03:24
+perlDreamerthat's worse than tempalte03:24
@preactionthough i should mention i always type worlfkow03:24
* perlDreamer is secretly hoping he's channeling Roddenbery03:24
+perlDreamerworf klow must be klingon03:25
SDuensinSo would I be insane to allow every user the ability to create a page on my site?03:30
@preactionfor what purpose?03:35
SDuensinGive everyone in town a home page on the town's web site.03:36
@preactionah, nice03:37
SDuensinStill trying to figure out where my calendar feed went.  03:38
@preactionyou could modify the demo system to give everyone their own site03:38
SDuensinDoes it expect to read external calendars in iCal format?03:38
SDuensinNo, they want their own site, they get to BUY it.  :-)03:38
@preactioniCalendar format, yes03:38
SDuensinBut yes, I'm hacking things up to automate that as well.03:38
SDuensinOk, that's why my feed isn't working.03:38
SDuensinMan, every time I import a calendar feed, I get duplicates.  :-(04:07
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elninoHI!  I'm now installing wre on an ubunto system.. new experience... anyway, it's already have perl on it.. So, if I want to install wre, do I uninstall the existing perl first? or does wre install in the "normal" directorys and will overwrite the existing install?04:08
elninowhat what version of perl is in the latest wre version?04:08
SDuensinI imported the US Holidays calendar from Google.  I have things like St. Patrick's Day on both the 17th (correct) and the 18th (not).04:08
SDuensinLooks like 5.10.0, elnino 04:09
@preactionelnino: the WRE installs in its own directory. when you're using it, you make sure to ". /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment.sh" (there is a space between . and /), so that you are using the correct Perl04:09
SDuensinpreaction - Ever see that calendar issue before?04:10
@preactionyes, i suspect time-zone issues04:10
@preactionis it exactly 5 hours off each way?04:11
* SDuensin is CST.04:11
@preactionCST would be 6 hours then04:11
SDuensinNot sure.  For example, St. Pat's says:  SCHEDULED04:12
SDuensinTuesday, March 17 ? Wednesday, March 1804:12
@preactionlook at the details for the event in the webgui calendar04:13
SDuensinThat's where I got the text I pasted.  There are no times.04:13
@preactionhuh, that's weird04:14
SDuensinLeave it to me to find "weird".04:14
@preactioni'd post it as a bug and attach the icalendar feed you got the event from04:14
@preactionperaps the parser is choking again04:14
SDuensinok - can do04:14
SDuensin7.6.14?  When'd that sneak out!?04:14
SDuensinHere I was going to load 13 and got a nice surprise.  :-)04:15
+perlDreamersorry, no more bugs04:18
+perlDreamerall bugs in the core have been fixed04:18
elninoso. do I need to remive the existing perl before installing wre? or am I ok with both instances?04:18
+perlDreamerto get new bugs, we need new code04:18
+perlDreamercalendar is old cod04:18
elninosounds like Ican have both.04:18
+perlDreamerno code04:18
@preactionelnino: you're okay with both. the . /... thing does the switch for you04:18
+perlDreamerno bugs in it04:18
@preactionthat's how we could fix the calendar!04:19
+perlDreamertake all the code out of it?  yup, that would work04:19
@preactionno code == no bugs!04:19
@preactionthen i can keep my hair!04:20
* preaction pets his hair lovingly04:20
+perlDreamerwhat does your hair have to do with calendar bugs?04:20
@preactionthey're making me lose my hair!04:20
elninothatnks preaction and SDuensin for your help.04:20
+perlDreamerwell, if the calendar is making you lose hair, what is the unmentionalble asset doing to you?04:21
SDuensinAnytime, elnino - WebGUI is DA BOMB!04:21
+perlDreamerwe do not use its name...04:21
@preactionTHAT one is working fine, because the person who wrote it was smart04:21
SDuensinBug filed.04:22
@preactionor do you mean that OTHER asset04:22
+perlDreamerwon't say it04:22
@preactionthere's only one asset that is the bane of my existence, and that is the Calendar04:24
@preactionall other assets are cool with me04:24
+perlDreamerthat's why they're two days long04:24
@preactionthe only problem is there's some sort of comraderie between assets, and they won't gangstomp the calendar for me04:24
+perlDreamerbecause they SAY they're 2 days long04:25
SDuensinThey do?  That's F'ed up!04:25
@preactionYEAH! SCORE 1 FOR NOT MY FAULT!04:25
+perlDreamerGoogle attempts to take over the world by reworking specs04:25
* preaction does not mention the score for "TOTALLY MY FAULT"04:25
+perlDreamersounds vaguely familiar..04:25
+perlDreamerperlbot: karma preaction04:25
perlbotKarma for preaction: 3204:25
SDuensinOk, so if I yank the feed now, do I have to manually remove each entry from my calendar?04:26
@preactionuh... yes?04:26
@preactioni don't remember really04:26
SDuensinThat's not the right answer!04:26
+perlDreamerhold his feet to the fire, SDuensin!04:28
SDuensinBut... But... How can Google be WRONG?!04:28
+perlDreameryou know, in that wordpress/joomla article, WebGUI compares pretty well to wordpress in number of clicks04:33
SDuensinNumber of clicks?04:33
+perlDreamerThe author compares usability to the number of clicks it takes to do something04:34
+perlDreamerlike, add a blog04:34
+perlDreameradd an article, page04:35
+perlDreamerthis is where rizen and tavisto need to step quickly in and compare WebGUI to Wordpress, Joomla and Drupal04:35
@preactionhttp://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2009/01/15/sagecrm-v62-wheaton-college-and-webgui-alterian-and-jaguar-accenture-r.asp <- anyone see this? second section04:36
SDuensinI've used all three.  My empire runs on WebGUI.  My last non-GUI site is going bye-bye this week.04:37
SDuensinExcellent!  Go Wheaton!04:38
+perlDreamermore linkage04:39
@preactionuhoh, on their library site they've got a "New! Try our new catalog interface", which isn't WebGUI04:39
SDuensinKick their ass.04:40
@preactionand it looks like they could use some development guides04:40
@preactionnono, though perhaps we should enter a beneficial business relationship with them04:40
@preactiondamn him.. never around when i need him04:40
@preactionmarketing jocks are all the same04:40
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+perlDreamermaybe you have to say his name 3 times, like Beetlejuice?04:41
+perlDreamerpreaction, that's also 7.0.804:41
@preactionyeah, i saw that too04:41
+perlDreamerold 7x code04:42
+perlDreamerupgrades would do them a world of good04:42
@preactionwhich is why it's vitally important that we tell them, if they're migrating away from webgui, to upgrade before they finalize that decision04:42
@preaction7.0 is what, 3 years old now?04:42
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+perlDreamerif it's user facing, wouldn't it be finalized?04:42
@preactionit's under development, we still have a chance! we break in and steal the SOURCE04:43
@preactionbecause there's no chance they have a robust backup procedure or anything04:43
@preactionhe cannot help us04:45
+perlDreamerhe can tomorrow04:46
@preactionwe must h4x0r teh g1b53n04:46
+perlDreamerstop daydreaming about Angelina Jolie04:46
@preactionher lips are horrific04:46
@preactionif only she didn't have those lips...04:47
@preactionshe's close, but no cigar04:47
+perlDreamerI don't know...04:48
+perlDreameranybody that can curve a bullet around a room like that04:48
* perlDreamer switches to Daddy mode.04:49
+perlDreamerokay, i procrastinated04:52
+perlDreamerthe new interface is WebGUI, too04:52
@preactioni checked the source and it didn't have the generator tag04:52
+perlDreamerthat's what the librarian says04:53
+perlDreamerthey have a realtime meebo chat interface :)04:53
+perlDreamereither that, or this librarian doesn't know04:53
* SDuensin uses Meebo on some WG sites.04:53
@preactionthe "VuFind discovery interface" thing isn't WG04:54
+perlDreamerit sure doesn't look like it04:54
@preactioneh, i see how it is though, there are about 50 different systems to integrate04:54
@preactioncolleges outrank gov't agencies in complexity04:55
+perlDreamerthey have fewer funds04:55
* perlDreamer really goes into daddy mode now :)04:55
@preactionhttp://www.gspm.org/Julie+Germany/130_Why-the-State-Department-Gets-It <- a nice blurb about one of our clients04:56
@preactionokay, so if when creating a new user, their profile fields don't get any privacy values to start with, is that a bug?05:00
+perlDreamerask khenn05:03
@preactionyeah, sent him an e-mail05:03
+perlDreamersounds like it needs a test written for that05:03
@khennyes that's a bug05:08
@preactionsubmitting a bug05:09
SDuensinHow do I run spectre in debug so I can watch it?05:11
@khenncd /data/WebGUI/sbin05:12
@khennperl spectre.pl --debug I think05:12
@preaction--run --debug05:12
SDuensinGot a workflow going nuts here.05:13
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knowmadpatspam: nice write-up in PBWG05:18
knowmadi never knew about that "easter egg" hidden in the gooey dolls05:18
+patspamheh thanks william05:19
SDuensinMan, something is MAD.  Apache over-runs the memory limit about every 3 seconds.05:19
knowmadi'll have to try it when i get to work tomorrow and see if it works!05:19
SDuensinEAster egg?05:19
knowmadread Pat's writeup -- http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/campaigns/people/patrick-donelan05:19
@preactionSDuensin: perhaps the memory limit is too small?05:19
SDuensinBeats me.  Whatever shipped with it, I think.05:19
SDuensin$Apache2::SizeLimit::MAX_PROCESS_SIZE = 100000;05:20
SDuensin$Apache2::SizeLimit::MAX_UNSHARED_SIZE = 75000;05:20
* knowmad is signing off05:23
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@preactionSDuensin: yeah, up those both to 11000005:24
@preactionit's Apache2::SizeLimit killing processes, right?05:24
@preactionyeah, then that's the way to fix that05:25
@preactiongod... why is my drowsiness going away now...05:25
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SDuensinWhen do user workflows run?  At logon?  Creation?05:29
@preactioncreation or update, depends on which trigger you use05:30
@preactionthey are set in the Settings panel05:30
* SDuensin is installing http://www.webgui.org/bazaar/workflow-activity-to-create-personal-user-areas-when-user-is-created05:31
SDuensinAH!  The docs missed that part.05:32
SDuensinOr I missed that part.  Thanks again.05:32
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CIA-46WebGUI: doug * r9713 /WebGUI/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/User.pm): fixed #9852: Users can accept private messages from Visitor, but Visitor cannot send messages05:39
+perlDreamerwhere's the test for that?05:40
@preactionBITE ME05:40
@preactioni mean, i left it in my other pants05:40
+perlDreamerand don't forget to backport it05:40
+perlDreamerback to 7.605:40
+perlDreamerfrom 7.705:40
@preactioni was all happy like "This will be easy" and you come and STOMP ON MY DREAMS05:41
+perlDreameractually, I think he did some backporting05:41
+perlDreamerhe forked Adam and made Eve05:41
+perlDreamerand it still doesn't say where all those wives came from05:41
+perlDreamermiddle one05:42
@preactionbar graph05:42
@preactionline graph isn't as obvious "THIS IS A GRAPH"05:42
@preactionbar graph is blunt, like a bar05:42
+perlDreamerit's not a graph, it's a path through a website05:42
+perlDreamerpassively analyzing where the user has gone05:42
+perlDreamerand, may I say, Wow does Andy make nice graphics.05:42
+perlDreamerwhy isn't he in IRC?05:43
@preactionperhaps make the user guy bigger?05:43
@preactionand the line graph in front of the user05:43
+patspamI'll see if i can get him in here05:43
+perlDreamerback to showering kids, be back in 1505:43
+patspamwhat irc client do you OSX folks use?05:44
@preactionsome use colloquy, but I use Xchat Aqua05:44
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+patspamheh thanks, I think he'll be here shortly05:48
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+perlDreamerI'm back06:01
+perlDreamerandyiomoon, your graphics are awesome!06:02
andyiomoonhehheh - why thank you06:02
andyiomoonas I was telling Pat - I haven't used IRC in years!06:03
* patspam chalks up another australian in the channel.. grand total of 306:03
+perlDreamerthat means you just passed up the Dutch06:03
andyiomoonwho is the third?06:03
+perlDreamerand that's an accomplishment06:03
+patspamhe's in Perth06:03
elninono sorry, I don't know andyiomoon. YEA that perlDreamer is back.   But I'll say "yea" for andyiomoon's graphics too.06:03
andyiomoonor if I am the third who is the second06:03
andyiomoonah cool06:03
+patspamelnino: andy is the "S" in SDH06:04
elninowhos SDH?  Oh good grief.. maybe I should read some history before "jumping in"  (Hi patspam)06:05
+perlDreamerelnino, have you kept up with the latest PBWG interview on webgui.org?06:05
+patspamperlDreamer and preaction: refresh http://www.sdhconsulting.com.au/tmp/passive-analytics-icons1.jpg for the new icon06:05
elninonot at all.06:05
+perlDreamerthe latest one is a certain well known spamproof australian06:05
@preactioni likes!06:05
@preactionwhen it gets down to teh very bottom, it's still recognizable06:05
+perlDreamervery spritely06:05
andyiomoonyep - took out the little man for the 16x16 - too muddy otherwise06:06
elninoI did see patspam picture, is that what you're refering to?06:06
+perlDreamerthat's the one06:06
elninoyes, that was a nice photo. =)06:06
andyiomoonI still think the webgui doll should have been in focus and you all blurry pat06:07
+perlDreamerSDH is the group that patspam, andyiomoon and H work for.06:07
+perlDreamerWe haven't met H yet, but based on the other 2/3's it bodes very well06:07
andyiomoonmore mystery that way :)06:07
andyiomoonahh perlDreamer you ol' silver tongue06:07
+patspamperlDreamer: spamproof? dang did you hunt down my iconBuffet profile? or is that just a coincidence06:08
+perlDreamerit's the psychic interface06:08
+perlDreamerpreaction: I'll backport and write the test.06:09
@preactionalready backported06:10
@preactiontest not writ though06:10
+perlDreamerI thought you fixed the profile bug06:11
@preactionyeah, visitors shouldn't see the "send message" links, caused by "acceptsPrivateMessage" being true06:12
+patspamso depressing that the only way to get my printer to work reliably is to talk to it from inside a windows vm06:15
+perlDreamerpreaction: /me is confused06:16
+perlDreamerthere are no global privacy field settings06:16
+perlDreamerat the profile field level06:16
+perlDreamerso isn't having them all private correct?06:17
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CIA-46WebGUI: doug * r9714 /WebGUI/docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt: fixeding my borkes to the changelog06:20
CIA-46WebGUI: doug * r9715 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/User.pm): backported 971306:20
+perlDreamerProfileField doesn't even know about wg_privacysettings, aside from reserving it as a field name06:22
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elninooh.. I'm installing a new instance of wre and I'm missing something. I haven't done this before, only upgrades..07:19
elninoI'm following http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/wre-installation.07:19
elninoI untared and I'm attempting to run ./wreconsole.pl and then it talks about setting up a site. Is it not going to ask me to downoad webgui?  I think I naswered my question.. =)07:20
elninohmm. after reading this I guess I'm wrong.  my port 60834 seems not to be responding/07:24
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elninohow do I get rid of old version of mp3 files that my user uploaded?  is that taken care of the "delete old asset revisions" workflow?07:39
elninoI see this: http://www.webgui.org/community-wiki/clean-temp-storage but, I believe there to be missing information on this wiki.07:44
@preactionelnino: delete old asset revisions is what takes care of that, but you can delete revisions manually if you want07:44
elninook.. that workflow sounded like it only dealt with db entries. 07:45
elninodo you use ubunto by any chance?07:45
@preactionno, os x07:45
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elninoport 60834 seems to be blocked, but I hav eno proof, nor know how to determine this.. Anyone there that can tell me what to look at on a ubunto system?08:12
elninopatspam. fyi. on your website, your link to canto cumulus is broken.08:14
elninodo you guys provide webgui hosting?08:14
+patspamelnino: heh we have the most awesome website ever, single page, static html08:39
+patspamand totally out of date08:39
+patspamwe don't host professionally, we outsource that to folks like procolix08:40
elninohi. patspam.. shouldn't you be using umm. webgui?  =)08:46
+patspamstatic html is the future, down with wg!08:47
elninook then.  =)  I went to procolix.. who here manages that... I was looking for prices.08:48
+patspamspeak to Koen, aka SynQ08:49
+patspamhe should be waking up in an hour or 2 :)08:50
+patspammeanwhile, I'm off, night all!08:50
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elninopreaction, do you know Tiffany (SEO gal) and what is her website?09:05
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@preactionelnino: elitedesignsltd.com09:22
elninooh yes. Thank you.09:22
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topsubIs there a way in webgui i can import like 191 images with a zip file or something?16:02
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+MrHairgreasetopsub: I don't think so16:05
+MrHairgreasebut you can always use the fileImport script in sbin of course16:05
topsubAh i might have to look at that16:05
+MrHairgreaseprovided you have server access that is16:05
topsubi have 191 images to import16:05
+MrHairgreaseI always use fileImport for stuff like that16:06
topsubcool i will give that a try16:06
+bartjoltobsub, do you want to put them in a Gallery?16:17
topsubbartjol, No, i just need them in an images folder16:18
+bartjolI heard that has a zip import function?16:19
+bartjolthen I have to agree with Martin16:19
topsubthis is for a javascript captcha and these are the supporting images16:19
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elninoMrHairgrease.. rumer has it that you are working on http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/9781is this true?17:31
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+MrHairgreaseI am not working on a PayPal plugin17:32
+MrHairgreasebut I heard there is one in the making17:33
+MrHairgreaseI'm not in on the details though17:33
elninohmm. are you working on any payment plugin?17:33
+MrHairgreaseNot currently, but I am working on other commerce stuff17:33
* elnino is sad17:33
elninocause you're not working on one.17:34
+MrHairgrease7.7 is far away anyway17:34
SDuensinIsn't there a PayPal driver in the Bizarre?17:34
elninoI know.. That's why I was exceited to hear that you were working on one. I must have misundertood, or forgot who they said.17:34
elninoI'll look again SDuensin17:34
+MrHairgreaseI think Joeri is working on one17:35
+MrHairgreasebut as i said, I'm not in on the details17:35
elninohey. . there it is!  It's New!17:35
+MrHairgreaseand I know for a fact that he's very busy17:35
elninowas it you SDuensin?17:35
SDuensinNo, I just happened to see it last night.17:36
elninono author listed. I'm trying it!!!17:36
elninoThanks! guys, you made my day.17:40
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SDuensinLet us know how it goes.  (Especially me!)17:40
+MrHairgreaseyeah, feedback in this direction is apprciated as well17:41
elninoIt'll be slow.. Got several projects going, but I know my customer wants this desparately. I'll post comments on the bazzar, or is it more appropriate here?17:41
SDuensinEither/both.  I'll find it next time I browse it.  But coming here to chat is fun.  :-)17:42
elninoI just found out you can subscribe to it (far right column) then you'll be notified.17:43
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dionakhas anyone tested the paypal plugin yet?17:59
dionakit will be a very useful addition to webgui17:59
+bartjolelnino is trying I believe18:00
@tavistowho created a paypal plugin?18:01
dionakcool...looking forward to hearing about it. the rfe's were confusing18:01
@tavistoI knew this was coming but didn't know it was already in testing18:02
+bartjoltavisto: nothing will be published until you've made a cartoon18:02
+bartjolbut the publisger of the plugin is unknown18:02
@tavistodon't worry, "the adventures of BartJol: The Big Dutch Girlyman" will soon be at newstands near you18:03
dionakit's odd that the username of the plugin poster isn't displayed in the Bazaar.18:04
+bartjolit is18:04
+bartjolthe mysterious anionymous contributer... abbreviated that's mac, so I guess it's a mac user18:05
dionakbartjol must work nights as a comedian..18:06
elninoI have to do a webgui upgrade before I can try this18:06
SDuensinDo it, man!  We wait with baited breath!18:09
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+perlDreamerbopbop, I have the solution!18:13
+perlDreamerSeasonShot is a green bullet alternative18:13
@bopbopah- yes it is18:14
+perlDreamerEnvironmentally friendly and biodegradable18:14
+perlDreamerBeing tasty is just a side benefit18:14
@bopboplol- I just read that this am18:14
@bopbopand tasty18:14
+perlDreamerhas the FDA approved it yet?18:14
@bopbopdon't think so18:14
@bopbopmaybe this will do it18:14
+perlDreamerHope so.18:15
+perlDreamerOkay, on to other business18:15
+perlDreamerHas preaction told you about Wheaton College's library site yet?18:15
@tavistoperlDreamer, he has not told me a thing18:23
+perlDreamerwell, then18:23
+perlDreamerwe found a new WebGUI site18:23
@tavistodo tell!18:23
@tavistohere's another new one www.thebetterfish.com18:23
@tavistopretty sharp18:23
+perlDreamerand if that isn't enough18:25
+perlDreamerthere was a Slashdot article yesterday comparing usability in WordPress and Joomla18:25
+perlDreamerthe author of the article basically did label and # of clicks to get a job done18:26
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+perlDreamerOf course, Slashdot over-hyped it.  The Joomla people didn't get upset about it18:27
+perlDreamerbut, it would be interesting to see comparisons of WebGUI against other CMS systems.18:27
+perlDreamercould be good marketing, maybe the source for another story18:27
+perlDreamerat the least, it would let us know things to fix in WebGUI for ease and speed of use18:32
+bartjolsome feedback from other people than WebGUI junkies should be good18:32
+bartjolmaybe it's just addictive18:33
+perlDreamerf00li5h, did you get hired?  Is that why you changed your nick?18:35
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SDuensinHave I mentioned in the last 10 minutes that I frickin' LOVE WebGUI?18:40
deafferretSDuensin: yes. At 10:40.18:41
+perlDreamerThis would be a bad time to mention JSON in the db, then, yes? ;)18:41
SDuensinYES!  It's EVIL!18:41
+MrHairgreaseI'm going crazy here18:44
+MrHairgreasethe problem is this18:44
+MrHairgreasethe pasted method does not return the full contents of the $json to the browser18:44
+MrHairgreaseit limits it to 8193 bytes18:45
+MrHairgreasewhich is close to 819218:45
+MrHairgrease /tmp/barf.txt has the whole json string though18:45
+MrHairgreasewhat could be limiting my output?18:46
daviddelikatwhat does the caller look like?18:46
+MrHairgreaseeventually it's being called by WG::Content::Shop18:46
+MrHairgreaseit's an addition to WG::Shop::Vendor18:47
daviddelikatso is it the web client that shows only ~8193 chars?18:47
daviddelikatlotta stuff in between there18:47
daviddelikatnot likelyl to be in the perl code you posted.18:47
daviddelikathave you tried 'wget'?18:48
+MrHairgreaseoh now it's 8348 bytes btw18:48
@tavistohow is this a new site? Wheaton has been using WebGUI forever18:49
daviddelikatcan you give me a URL?18:49
* perlDreamer didn't know tavisto18:49
@tavistobad perlDreamer! bad!18:50
daviddelikatMrHairgrease: a URL?18:50
+MrHairgreasei pmed you18:51
+perlDreamerthe perl code is fine, MrHairgrease.  I'd be looking at apache18:51
@tavistoI'm sorry I have to do this perlDreamer, but I'm going to replace that shiny "I know everything" button on your vest with a "I almost know everything" button.18:51
+MrHairgreaseyeah i know18:51
+MrHairgreasebut i don't know where to look18:52
+MrHairgreaseeverything else is fine18:52
+perlDreamertavisto, maybe it could say: I only know code18:52
+MrHairgreaseand most pages are prolly more that a lousy 8k18:52
@tavisto*tavisto thinks perlDreamer makes a great 'walmart greeter' for WebGUI*18:52
* perlDreamer hopes that's a positive18:53
@tavistohehe of course18:53
@Haargprobably would be good to verify that other pages are over 8k18:53
@Haargyou also might try outputting with session->output->print directly18:54
@tavistoperlDreamer, what I can't figure out is why they reused that story on their site in a different location.18:56
@tavistoThis was the originally story on Jan 13, 2009:  http://internetcommunications.tmcnet.com/topics/enterprise/articles/48555-wheaton-college-happy-with-webgui-library.htm18:56
+perlDreamermaybe they're just recycling content?18:57
@tavistonot sure if you know this, but all WebGUI press gets added to the "WebGUI in the news" section of webgui.org. (under promote) It has a collection of 7-8 stories right now. This is also an area where we can post news stories about WebGUI partners and resellers if their stories get picked up.18:57
+perlDreamerI should have checked that.18:58
+perlDreamerIs there a place for us to submit stories to be added to that list?18:58
@tavistowell this is a new story so I'm glad you showed me. It's factually incorrect at the end though18:58
+MrHairgreaseoh crap18:58
+MrHairgreasewget does get the correct result18:58
@tavistoright now it's only setup for Plain Black to add them. (because it aggregates to the main news mailing list)18:58
+MrHairgreaseit's just that my firefox doesn't for some reason18:58
@Haarghow are you testing it in firefox?18:59
+MrHairgreaseforgot the escape the ? in the url18:59
@tavistoGood point though, I need to add an email address or data form to that page so people can submit news.18:59
+MrHairgreasejust by going to the url18:59
daviddelikatMrHairgrease: how is your firewall involved here18:59
daviddelikatare you going out then back in?18:59
+MrHairgreasemaybe it's the fancyass json colorizer plugin i installled19:00
+MrHairgreasehang on19:00
+perlDreamertavisto, sounds like a good idea for the new site design.  A Partners page with a dataform or something would be very handy19:00
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@tavistoperlDreamer, another thing that has been extremely useful is to setup Google Alerts for the keywords "webgui" and "plain black webgui". It's helped me find lots of obscure stories and blogs about WebGUI.19:00
+perlDreamertavisto, did you notice the "whataboutwebgui" tag on that usability article?19:00
@tavistolike this blog that just recently compared Alfesco to Joomla to WebGUI. And WebGUI got some nice props19:01
@tavistono I didn't, let me look19:01
+MrHairgreaseit was the crapass json colorizer plugin19:01
+MrHairgreaseit can prolly handle only 8k of json...19:02
+MrHairgreasethanks for the help!19:02
@tavistoperlDreamer, which article are you referring to19:03
+perlDreamerto the slashdot article itself.19:03
@tavistoI dont see anything about WebGUI19:04
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SDuensinOk, I'm confused.  I'm putting groups inside groups.  When I place a group inside a group, it also adds "Admins" under that.  Why does it do that?19:07
+perlDreamerSDuensin, it's a feature.19:07
+perlDreamerAdmins are automatically members of all groups19:07
SDuensinAh!  Ok, so those are the groups that are under the group I'm adding.19:07
SDuensinI get it now!  :-)19:07
+perlDreamertavisto: http://imagebin.ca/view/KMAetx.html19:08
+perlDreamernot sure how to find those tags otherwise...19:09
+perlDreamerunless MrHairgrease was spoofing us19:09
+bartjolwell, that's a clear link19:10
+MrHairgreaseI also still have the original screen shot w/o all my artwork 19:15
@tavistothat's really strange19:15
@tavistoin a good way of course19:15
@tavistowell the drupal and webgui tags are not there now when clicking on the individual story19:17
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daviddelikathow does one assign a template id for a new default template?19:18
+perlDreamereither creatively make one with 22 characters that is a valid GUID (see Session/Id for details)19:19
+perlDreameror, have WebGUI do it for you, using the api19:19
* perlDreamer heads to the other office19:19
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@tavistowell that's cool to see a webgui tag on slashdot. I'm just curious how it made it there19:29
@preactionthe tagging thing allows other people to tag posts19:37
@preactionit's not there anymore, it got moderated off or something19:38
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topsubthe fileimport worked perfect.. whew!! didn't want to import 191 images.. haha19:46
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CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9716 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Asset_Survey.pm: labeling survey as beta19:51
+perlDreamerHaarg, I was able to fix my uploads permissions problems with a fixup script and --util19:52
+perlDreamerWGDev to the rescue!19:52
@Haargi was thinking about what you said about a wgd restart19:53
@Haargbut i haven't come up with a good way to handle it yet19:54
@Haargi guess if it was limited to only restarts it would make sense19:54
+perlDreamerI think util is really the same thing, with the scripts stuck in the config file19:54
+perlDreameroh, and there may be a problem with asset import/export and list types19:56
@Haargthe main thing is that restarting is something that may be useful elsewhere19:56
@Haargthere is19:56
+perlDreamerI'm seeing ARRAY (0x.....) as my template parser19:56
@Haargi saw that, but haven't looked at it in detail yet19:57
+perlDreamerit just needs an array serializer similar to what the form types use, coming in and going out19:58
@Haargi think it's a problem with the forms api really19:59
@Haargat least partly19:59
@Haarga select box can't have multiple values, so it shouldn't be returning lists20:00
+perlDreamerthat is true20:00
@Haargbut for actual list values i'll probably need to do something20:00
+perlDreamerand the template parser is a select list20:01
+perlDreamerwhich it shouldn't be20:01
+perlDreamersince you can't have more than 1 parser20:01
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+perlDreamershould we fix that in 7.7?20:04
topsubI imported the 191 images on a local install of webgui. created a package and imported the package on another server.. i had to do this because i can ssh to that server. then when i click on the imported package i get a 404. Anyway to debug this without seeing the logs?20:04
+perlDreamertopsub, go to the Admin Console and turn on debug mode20:04
+perlDreamerrestrict it to your IP if it's publicly available20:04
+perlDreamerit will give you a stack trace, query log, and the latest error20:05
topsubis that from settings.. don't think i ever used this debug mode before20:05
+perlDreameryes, it's in settings20:05
+perlDreamerif you can't do ssh to the server, how do you do code installs?20:06
topsubwell we had ssh but it has changed and the client dind't update us20:07
topsubso i am trying to do this work without having to ssh to the box20:08
@HaargperlDreamer, it's a SelectList in the definition, but it's manually drawn using SelectBox20:11
+perlDreamerthat's right.  It doesn't inherit getEditForm.20:11
+perlDreamerso changing it should be trivial and harmless20:12
+perlDreamerand not cause problems in the future, either20:12
@Haargwgd edit still needs adjustments for list types though20:12
+perlDreameryes, but I think as a workaround I can change the YAML in the editor to be a scalar.  that may work20:12
@Haargit will20:13
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hanswhmm, sorry, seem to start in Dutch again :-)20:18
+perlDreamernot a problem20:19
hanswLen around?20:19
@preactionKranendonk? i dunno if he comes around here20:19
hanswjust wanted to let him know we are porting his solaris machine to linux -)20:19
hanswyes, kranendonk, he used to visit this channel20:20
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hanswnice to there are more people in here 20:21
SDuensinI'm beginning to think the macro system was designed to anger me.20:27
+perlDreamerwhat's happening, SDuensin?20:27
SDuensinI basically need to provide links based on a user's group.  Except the content either contains quotes which breaks the macro or the HTML editor mangles it...20:28
SDuensinSo I was going to proxy in the content I need to display.  Except the asset proxy macro can't be nested.20:28
+perlDreamerhow many groups do you have to work with?20:30
SDuensinJust one.  I want to offer a link for a user to create their personal web space if they don't have one, or a link to that space if they do have one.20:30
SDuensinTrying to do it without writing another custom macro.20:31
+perlDreamer<a href="^GroupText(group,link1,link2);">^GroupText(group,label1,label2);</a>20:31
SDuensinOooO!  Smart!  Thanks!20:31
+perlDreamerthat's why they pay me the big bucks20:32
SDuensinIf this hack works, I'll be super happy.  20:33
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9717 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Template.pm: parser should be a selectbox, not a selectlist.20:38
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9718 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Beginnings of an edit form for the Story.20:38
SDuensinRFE for 8:  Less hacky macro system!20:43
@preactionyeah... i once thought as you did20:43
SDuensinThe dark side refuses to create a valid URL.20:43
@preactionyeah, the thing about that, the only really smart macro system is unbearably slow20:44
+perlDreamerpaste it, SDuensin, my young WebGUI padawan20:44
SDuensinI've tried it with and without quotes.20:44
+perlDreameryeah, lose the quotes20:45
+perlDreamerthey're not needed20:45
+perlDreamerthen please paste the output as well20:45
SDuensinIf I do that, it mangles the HTML.  Lemme get a copy of that.20:46
+perlDreamerI don't think you want ^u; in there20:46
+perlDreamerI think you really want ^/;20:46
SDuensinBut ^/; doesn't provide a complete URL.20:46
+perlDreamerit needs a hostname?20:47
SDuensinNeeds, no.  But I want it.20:47
+perlDreamerthe browser will do the right thing without it20:47
+perlDreamerall, would I be a fool for making20:48
+perlDreamerwhich would make an i18n'ed label for forms with hoverhelp?20:48
SDuensinOk, here's what I'm trying now:  http://jaeger.pastebin.com/d4cf91b0120:49
+perlDreamerand the output?20:49
SDuensinThe link for not being in the group is:   http://test/create);20:50
SDuensinWhen I return to the editor, it has this:  http://jaeger.pastebin.com/d530fc80820:52
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elninolot of people here now.20:54
SDuensinIt's a popular place.20:54
+perlDreamerSDuensin: http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1236192657_534/home?op=auth;method=logout20:54
SDuensinperlDreamer - Still enjoying the power of the dark side?20:54
+perlDreamerI just wrote your macro code20:54
+perlDreameron that demo site20:54
+perlDreamerand it works20:54
SDuensinDude, the URL contains the closing paren and semicolon of the macro.  WTF?20:55
elnino=)  Just wondering if there is a way to manually install wre without recompilein it (because I'm lazy). I don't know if I can do anything about unblocking port 60834. If I just untar the wre and webgui files, and bring over my conf files, would that work?20:55
@Haargelnino, what i usually do re port 60834 is use ssh port forwarding20:56
SDuensinCan you SSH into your host?20:56
SDuensinHaarg - Great minds think alike.  :-)20:56
+perlDreamerSDuensin, the stupid rich text editor is eating the macro20:57
@Haargssh user@host -L60834:localhost:6083420:57
SDuensinssh -L 60834: user@host20:58
@Haargthen you can go to http://localhost:60834/20:58
SDuensinDang!  Haarg beat me!20:58
elninoyou guys are funny.20:58
SDuensinperlDreamer - Yes, it is.20:58
elninothis is where I get confuesed. Somebody (non-webgui) walked me thru this long ago.. and I got confused, it worked, but I dont' know how... so while I'm using putty, I can access the site using MY browser at Localhost? or do I replace localhost with the machine name?20:59
SDuensinYour browser @ localhost.21:00
elninoor.. what if ON that machine I just use w3m.. is there a way to do that?21:00
@Haargwreconsole needs javascript iirc21:01
elninooh ok. I understand that.. =)21:01
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elninoso putty will do some magic and make "localhost" not localhost.  that's pretty cool. I'll try it after I get some sleep. I'm running on fumes.21:02
+perlDreamerIt's a bug, SDuensin, please file it, along with the text you're trying to enter.21:02
SDuensinperlDreamer - ok, I can do that.21:02
SDuensinCustom macro time, eh?  :-)21:02
+perlDreamerin the meantime, just disable the RTE21:03
+perlDreamerthat thing is a piece of crap21:03
SDuensinEh, yea.21:03
SDuensinUsers like it though.21:03
+perlDreameryou could try this as a workaround21:04
+perlDreamerput that code into a snippet21:04
+perlDreamerthen assetProxy it in21:04
+perlDreamerthat should bypass the RTE21:04
SDuensinThe snipped editor isn't rich?21:04
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@plainhaoi ran the bazaar classLoadTester.pl and i'm seeing two assetIds and a negative instanciate time for one of them, anyone know what that means?21:29
@preactionplainhao: it means that perl's timeing is off, which is a known issue with perl21:52
* plainhao thanks preaction21:52
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9719 /WebGUI/ (3 files in 3 dirs): preparing for 7.7.0 dev22:27
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--- Day changed Thu Mar 05 2009
+perlDreamerSDuensin, did the snippet trick work?00:08
SDuensinYep!  Thanks!00:09
* SDuensin is implementing everything now.00:09
SDuensinThis is gonna be so damn cool.00:10
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9720 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 00:10
CIA-46WebGUI: - Fixed a bug with Gallery where using the web service (iphone or iPhoto)00:10
CIA-46WebGUI:  would cause images and albums to be uploaded as "admin" rather than the00:10
CIA-46WebGUI:  user that actually uploaded them.00:10
CIA-46WebGUI: - Labeled Survey 2.0 as beta, per our quality policy.00:10
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9721 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/ (Gallery.pm GalleryAlbum.pm): forward porting gallery bug fixes00:11
+perlDreamerrizen: http://imagebin.ca/view/4emPah.html00:24
@rizenwhat am i looking at?00:27
@rizennow i know00:28
@rizenholy crap00:28
@rizenyou're making good time00:28
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@rizenwho the hell do you think you are patspam00:29
+perlDreamerwell, not too much good time.  You can't actually add Stories through the UI yet00:30
+perlDreamerbut the API is there00:30
@rizenyou think you can just email me and tell me what to do?00:31
@rizendo you think i have an email based api?00:31
@rizendo ya?00:31
+patspamshhhh don't tell eveyone else!00:31
* SDuensin chuckles00:31
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SDuensinEh, that always throws an error here.00:33
+patspamwhile(1) { eval {JT::Mail->ApproveRFE} }00:33
@rizenthe beautiful thing about that method is that behind the scenes it calls randomWrath()00:34
@rizenwhich could make sure nothing happens00:34
@rizeni could segfault00:34
@rizeni might do what you request00:35
+patspamwhile(1) { eval { srand(42); JT::Mail->ApproveRFE} }00:35
@rizenor i might do something completely other00:35
+patspami know the secret seed00:35
+perlDreamerthat's what was missing patspam00:38
+patspamno doubt you've written a test suite for it perlDreamer?00:39
+perlDreamerI only have manual tests for that one00:39
+perlDreamer$rizen has limited bandwidth and you have to be careful not to exceed it00:40
WebGUIrizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response?00:40
@rizeni have no reaction00:40
WebGUIthat is unbelievable00:41
@rizeni really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it00:41
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WebGUIout of it?00:41
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WebGUIwhat does that mean, out of it00:41
@rizenthe designers will do their best to assimilate the needs that people describe00:41
@rizenand then will implement the site00:41
@rizenno more JT input required00:41
WebGUIso first you ask 'the community' to react00:41
@rizenit's a community site00:41
@rizenif the community decides to make stupid decisions00:42
@rizenthat's their own problem00:42
WebGUIand then all these reactions go into the melting pot of the designers without rebuttle00:42
CIA-46WebGUI: graham * r9722 /WebGUI/ (docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt lib/WebGUI/Asset/Template.pm): fixed: Template parser cannot be set00:42
WebGUIand then they do something with it00:42
WebGUIso the designers get to decide on user interaction design to00:42
WebGUIare the designers going to participate in the discussion you reqested?00:43
WebGUIwho are 'the designers'?00:43
@rizenplain black designers00:43
WebGUIthe are called?00:43
+perlDreamersteve, meg, tabb, john00:43
@rizentabitha, mego, steve, john00:43
WebGUIare they going to participate in the discussion?00:44
WebGUIand if so, when?00:44
@rizenwhy would they?00:44
WebGUIthey are not00:44
@rizenthis is about community feeback00:44
WebGUIah ok00:44
@rizenif they have something to say then i suppose they would00:44
@rizenbut they already had the last 1.5 months to discuss what was needed00:44
WebGUIthat is clear to me00:44
@rizenand thats how we got to where we are now00:45
WebGUIin that case I am out of it too00:45
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@rizenyou mean cuz you've said your piece?00:45
@rizenyou have not said your piece?00:45
@rizenyou did reply00:45
@rizenyou were the first00:45
WebGUII mean there is no use in discussing when the people who are going to implement are not participating actively in the discussion00:45
WebGUIof course00:45
+perlDreamerWebGUI:  they can listen just fine.00:46
WebGUII thought you where inviting the community into a discussion00:46
@rizenwhat is there to discuss exactly?00:46
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+perlDreamerNo one said anything contradictory00:46
+perlDreamerThey may just take all the feedback and build it00:46
SynQwell I have given at least 5 points that I would change00:46
SynQare all the things I said going to be implemented00:46
@rizeni suppose if you want me to go out there and say "i like this idea, and i hate that one" i could, but i don't think there's much merit in that...it's just a flame bait00:46
@rizenmaybe maybe not00:47
SynQthere is a difference between flaim and discussion00:47
@rizenthat's up to the designers to decide00:47
SynQif you really want a community00:47
SynQthen the designers should tell the community why they would choose to do or do not implement suggestions00:47
SynQlet me illustrate that with an analogy00:48
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SynQif the county wants the community to participate in the placement of a statue00:48
SynQand ask for reactions to a suggestion00:48
SynQthen the community of that county does not feel really heared if all the suggestions are just read somewhere in a boardroom, no reaction is given and then the statue is placed00:49
SynQthe same goes true for the webgui.org style00:49
SynQif you now say that it's going to be that way00:49
SynQthen there is no use in discussing it00:49
SynQsince in that case I don't feel part of the process00:50
SynQI will complain after it is implemented00:50
@rizenfirst of all, you will complain no matter what00:50
SynQand bitch on the points that I think should have been changed00:50
@rizenyou are Koen00:50
@rizenthat's what you do00:50
SynQthat is not fair00:50
@rizensecond, you are currently trying to goad me into a flame ware00:50
@rizenand i'm trying to avoid one00:50
@rizenwhich is why i'm not commenting00:51
SynQo god please don't let me be misunderstood00:51
SynQnow would be the right time from the other people reading this for some support00:51
@rizenif i have something to comment on then i'll comment on it00:51
@rizenuntil then there's no reason to do it00:51
SynQjust know that I feel being treated rude now00:52
+perlDreamerSynQ: you just want the designers to give you a summary of what they're going to change, and why?   Do you foresee a 2nd round of debate after that?00:52
@rizenand i'm not going to explain my decisions, or ask the designers to explain their decisions as to why or why not someone's feature wasn't implemented.00:52
@rizenit is as it is00:52
SynQperlDreamer: right00:52
SynQand yes I foresee a 2nd round of debate after that00:52
SynQrizen: in my opinion that is not a community00:52
SynQthat is a dictatorial regime00:53
SynQthe community has nothing to say really00:53
+perlDreamerthat's probably the problem there.  Every round of debate is $$, and slows down the implementation of the new site.00:53
@rizenno, in a dictatorial regime the community would have no input at all00:53
SynQok I give up00:53
SynQI understand you00:53
SDuensin"I'm sorry.  Is this the five minute argument, or will this be the whole fifteen minutes?"00:54
SynQand I don't agree00:54
SynQSDuensin: it's done allready00:54
@rizenit's ok if you don't agree00:54
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@rizenif you don't like the site after it's built, you still have a voice00:54
@rizenit's called an RFE00:54
SynQI think I have about 5 to 10 RFE's in on the community site allready00:55
SDuensinBet you can't get your RFE rejected as fast as my JSON one.  :-)00:55
@rizenSynQ, RFE's are implemented in the order they are ordered by karma00:55
SynQI know00:55
@rizenspend your karma and move your RFE's up the list00:55
SynQI have00:55
@rizenare they at the top?00:55
SynQmy top RFE is in 2nd or 3th position00:56
SynQfor a while now00:56
@rizenif so, they'll be implemented in the next couple of months00:56
SynQ3th even00:56
@rizenyou're not trying to say that we haven't followed through on implementing RFE's are you?00:57
SynQit has been on that list since october 200700:57
@rizencuz we implemented nearly 300 in the past 6 months00:57
SynQI am not00:57
SynQand I love you for implementing them :)00:57
SynQas I said in september 2008: I have patience00:57
SynQbut what I don't understand00:57
SynQif you ask for imput on the design00:57
SynQand I put time in to react to that00:58
SynQisn't it fair I get some response on that reaction?00:58
@rizenonly if the idea warrants response00:58
@rizenwhich can happen in 1 of 2 cases00:58
@rizen1) we don't understand what you're asking and need clarification00:58
@rizen2) we want to propose an alternative00:59
+perlDreamerit would be nice if the designers would summarize the feedback and say what they were going to change, with why.  But only so people know what's going to happen, and not to start a 2nd round of debate.00:59
@rizenwhy say all that? why not just do it.00:59
SynQI don't see the harm in extra debate00:59
@rizenaction not words00:59
SynQthat is what a community is about, isn't it?00:59
+perlDreameractions don't always have clear reasons01:00
+perlDreamernot only that, if people want to RFE things that are not implemented, it will help set the karma threshold for those RFEs01:00
SynQperlDreamer: karma threshold?01:01
+perlDreamersure.  Let's say that someone wants something very difficult, so the designers say that they would do it except for time constraints.01:01
+perlDreamerso the person submits an rfe for it01:01
+perlDreamerthen he knows the karma threshold will be high01:01
SynQgood point01:02
+perlDreamerI think you _both_ have good points.  If PB is spending 4 people for 1.5 months of redesign, that's expensive.01:02
SynQor if the designers say that they won't do it because they feel it is ugly then the karma threshold would be low, but the community could have a voice in that01:02
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+perlDreamerSynQ, if it was just a template and some graphics, then an RFE with a patch could be quickly implemented.01:03
SynQlike less hourglass stuff floating around01:04
SynQwhich allready 3 people have talked about01:04
SynQbut no designer has come by and said: you are right it is a bit too much01:04
SynQnor have they said: it is a crucial part of the design, we want to keep it01:05
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SynQperlDreamer: don't you think that such feedback is part of a community discussion?01:09
+perlDreamerIf I thought that giving the feedback was going to cause another round of discussion, I'd be hesitant to give it.01:09
+perlDreamerEspecially if it was costing me time, effort and money.01:10
SynQisn't that time worth having a community then?01:10
@rizenSynQ: i just don't understand what you're arguing for. i've already said someone would give you feedback if feedback was warranted. 01:11
SynQtime, effort and money might also get you a better and more effective design01:11
@rizenyou seem to want a project manager01:11
@rizensomeone to hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be ok, or that the shit has hit the fan01:12
SynQrizen: I'm arguing for a response from the people who are going to implement it so the community feels involved01:12
@rizenand i don't think you can do that01:12
SynQthat is what I'm arguing for01:12
SynQwhy not?01:12
@rizenyou want us to spend a bunch of time replying to every bullet point that's brought up01:13
SynQwhat is the use in having a community if you don't involve them in your actions/01:13
@rizenthen what do you want?01:13
SynQI want to get a reaction to my response that gives me the feeling that something is going to be done with it01:13
SynQso that I don't feel that I'm talking to a blank wall01:13
SynQbut instead that I feel involved01:13
SynQthat I am part of the process01:14
SynQthat the time I am putting into it is not in vain01:14
SynQmy time is not free either you know01:14
@rizenso you want one response to each post that's put up saying "yes i saw this"01:14
SynQare you serious?01:14
@rizeni'm trying to understand what you're asking for01:15
SynQI want someone who is going to implement the style to react to my post and in a few lines say 'hey, I say what your points are. I think that this and that might be a good Idea, we are going to have to think about that and that. Thanks for your feedback'01:16
SynQthat would make me feel involved01:16
SynQdo you really not understand that right now I cannot feel that?01:16
SynQyou ask for feedback. I give feedback, but I get no reaction to that feedback.01:17
SynQthen how do I know if that feedback is appreciated01:18
SynQand then when I ask you about it in the IRC channel you say (and I quote): (11:41:10 PM) rizen: i really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it01:18
SynQwhich achieves exactly the opposite of me feeling involved01:19
SynQI feel disconnected01:19
SynQand even treated rudely01:19
SynQyou ask for feedback, and then when I give feedback you say you don't care about that01:19
SynQI think that is rude, don't you?01:20
@rizensee it from my point of view01:21
@rizenthe site is not my project01:21
@rizeni've handed it off to the designers to do01:21
@rizenwhy should i care what your responses are to that project that i'm not a part of?01:22
SynQyou should care since you are the person that asked for feedback on the forums01:22
@rizeni can understand why you might want to hear from somebody that your requests were read and understood01:22
@rizenSynQ: I'm only one guy01:23
@rizeni can't do everything01:23
SynQand it is rude to ask someone to respond to a proposition and then when they do turn around and walk away01:23
@rizenthat's the purpose of having minions01:23
SynQI know01:23
SynQyou should have had one of your minions ask for feedback then01:23
@rizenso my mistake was that i posted the request in the first place01:23
SynQI agree01:23
SynQbut the consequense is that you cannot be rude after that01:23
SynQand walk away01:23
SynQhow can I know that you have handed it over to your minions?01:24
@rizeni should have either not asked for input from the community at all, logged in as one of my minions and posted the request, or just had them post the request01:24
@rizenyou asked and i told you01:24
@rizenthat's how you know01:24
SynQfor all I know you are taking this up as a pet project because you feel it is very important for WebGUI to have an active and involved community01:24
@rizenbut you're being obtuse about the whole thing01:24
SynQI don't know what obtuse means01:24
SynQI'm going to look it up, can you bear with me for a moment01:25
+perlDreamerthick headed, stubborn, opinionated, inflexible01:25
@rizeni think it is very important for WebGUI to have an active and involved community, that doesn't mean that i have to be the guy that responds to every email that comes in01:25
SynQI don't think I am obtuse01:25
SynQI just want to be treated as a full person01:25
SynQin real life as on the webgui forum as on irc01:25
@rizenyou are a full person, in what way have i not treated you as such01:25
@rizenyou asked a question about when I was going to respond01:25
@rizenand i said i wasn't01:25
@rizenand you were offended01:26
@rizeni haven't called you stupid01:26
@rizeni haven't belittled you in any way01:26
SynQI was offended by this line: (11:41:10 PM) rizen: i really don't care what anybody says there cuz i'm out of it01:26
@rizeni'm not responding01:26
SynQI was offended because you said you really didn't care what I said01:26
SynQwhich I thought (I understand better now) was rude since it was you who asked for a response in the first place01:27
SynQbut I think we have it all layed out now01:27
SynQand I forgive you01:27
* SynQ hugs rizen01:27
@rizenalright i will watch my phrasing. apparently i shouldn't say "I don't care" i should say "i'm not involved" or "talk to so and so"01:28
SynQplease do me a favour and be more carful to not post a request for reaction on something you are ....01:29
SynQnot going to look at any more yourself01:29
@rizeni still don't see why that matters, but ok01:29
SynQthen we are not done yet01:29
SynQyou should treat your community with respect01:29
SynQif you ask for reactions then it is fair that people later ask you 'hey, what did you think about my reaction'01:30
@rizenthat's not what you asked01:30
SynQif you are not going to replay to that people will think you are rude01:30
SynQthat is what I asked: (11:40:21 PM) SynQ: rizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response?01:30
SynQthat is actually the first thing I asked01:31
@rizensince you're niggling me on words i'll do the same to you01:31
SynQgo ahead01:31
@rizenyou asked if i have any reaction01:31
@rizennot what my reaction is01:31
@rizentwo different things01:31
SynQfair enough01:32
SynQI have to be clearer in what I ask is what you say01:32
@rizenno you don't01:32
@rizenyou just have to understand that i'm not going to lawyer you on words01:32
SynQis this line: (11:40:21 PM) SynQ: rizen, I assume you have read my reaction on the style images, do you have no reaction to my response? 01:32
@rizenand you shouldn't lawyer me on them01:32
SynQnot asking for your reaction?01:32
SynQcan we start over then, right from 11:40 ?01:33
SynQrizen, what did you think about my reaction to your request on comments on the new style?01:33
@rizeni cannot respond to that without creating a flame war01:33
SynQI haven't read that in the thread yet and I kind of expected01:34
SynQI kiss you01:34
@rizennow i have koen cooties01:34
SynQlet me ask you something else01:34
@rizenincidentally both myself and one of the designers have responded to the list01:35
@rizenmaybe not directly to your comments01:35
@rizenbut we have 01:35
@rizenso you know we are reading01:35
SynQnext time you ask for a reaction to anything, do you want just an 'hey that is cool' reaction or do you prefer my in detail response like I did now?01:35
SynQI'm just trying to help you know01:35
@rizenwhether you give a detailed response, or not is not my concern. However, the more detailed your response the more likely you are to affect change.01:36
SynQI don't even mind if something I suggest is not going to be used01:36
@rizenSo if you want to affect change, then give a detailed response.01:36
SynQI want to help01:36
SynQI get the impression that you still have the feeling that I allways want to put things to my hand, get them to be the way I wan't them to be, but that is not true01:37
SynQI just want to help01:37
SynQI'm just a boy whose intentions are good, o lord please don't let me be misunderstood01:37
@rizenBTW, since you're lawyering me I should note that nowhere in my statement did it say that I would personally respond to anything, or that anyone else would. Only that we wanted feedback, and we'd do our best to assimilate it.01:38
SynQI would like to react to that01:38
SynQI think that a forum, by it's very name tries to be an analogue of the old greek marketplace where people discuss stuff. In such I think that it is a place for discussion, the term discussionboard also points in that direction. I feel that if someone asks for feedback, it is only respectfull if they then are interested in that feedback. And that they express that respect in engaging in the discussion they asked for themselves.01:40
* SDuensin thinks we need a sister channel... #WebPooey01:40
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SynQI'm going to re-read your first post now01:40
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SynQSDuensin: I think that is unfair and rude too01:41
SynQrizen: you are right01:42
SynQyou did say you where going to try to assimilate it01:42
SynQperhaps I should have understood in advance that it was not possible to have a real discussion on it01:43
SynQbut somehow I keep expecting it01:43
SynQI keep believing01:43
@rizeni didn't say that there wouldn't be a real discussion on01:43
@rizenonly that i wouldn't be participating in it01:44
@rizenif the designers want to comment they are certainly capable of doing so01:44
@rizeni didn't direct them not to01:44
SynQwith real discussion I mean that the community would be really involved in the descisions on the design01:44
@rizenthat's design by committed01:44
SynQI think you should go even further01:44
@rizenwhich doesn't work01:44
SynQand direct them to do so01:44
@rizenultimately there has to be a decision maker01:44
SynQI agree01:44
@rizenand that person is going to be mego01:44
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9723 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm: Make edit story form values sticky, for preview.01:44
SynQbut that doesn't mean that you cannot discuss, go into arguments and discuss about it first01:45
@rizenand i didn't say that there wouldn't be those things01:45
@rizenonly that i'm not going to do it01:45
SynQ90% of the time these discussions are worth quite a deal01:45
@rizenand now i've wasted enough time telling you the same things over and over again01:45
SynQI love you too01:45
@rizenso i'm going to go home and make dinner01:46
@rizeni love you too koen01:46
SynQshall I try and compile the WRE tomorrow01:46
@rizenif you like01:46
@rizeni haven't been able to get it to compile even once yet01:46
@rizenbut i keep trying01:46
SynQhow is your progress on 64 bit coming along?01:46
@rizennot even trying that01:46
@rizeni can't get it to compile on 32 bit01:46
@rizenafter the changes you made01:46
SynQwhere does it get stuck/01:46
SynQthat's odd01:46
@rizenUndefined symbols:01:46
@rizen  "_BIO_set_callback_arg", referenced from:01:46
@rizen      _start_connect in ab.o01:46
@rizen  "_BIO_get_callback_arg", referenced from:01:46
@rizen      _ssl_print_cb in ab.o01:46
@rizen  "_SSL_CTX_set_info_callback", referenced from:01:46
@rizen      _main in ab.o01:46
SynQapache compiles just fine with me01:47
@rizen  "_BIO_set_callback", referenced from:01:47
@rizen      _start_connect in ab.o01:47
@rizenit's probably a mac thing01:47
SynQcould be01:47
SynQbut it has to work on mac too01:47
@rizenbut it didn't used to happen01:47
@rizenand now it does01:47
@rizenso i'm trying to work through it01:47
@rizenso far nothing01:47
@rizenhad some problems with lftp too01:47
@rizenbut i fixed those and checked them in01:47
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SynQI saw you ditched it01:47
SynQoh now01:47
@rizendidn't ditch it01:47
SynQindeed you didn't01:48
@rizeni commented out rsync for the time being01:48
SynQyou ditchet some other stuff01:48
@rizencuz i'm having problems with that too01:48
@rizenyeah stuff we don't need anymore01:48
@rizenlike subversion01:48
SynQrsync is included in all linux and bsd distro's01:48
@rizenyeah, but in many cases it's OLD01:48
SynQincluding git sounds like a good idea to me01:48
@rizeni'm trying to include the latest with the wre01:48
@rizenno git01:49
SynQthe debian git is very old01:49
@rizenand probably no rsync either01:49
@rizenneed to get this damn thing out the door after all01:49
SynQhave you seen the 'developers' directory I created01:49
SynQwhat I would like to do01:49
@rizenyes, but haven't looked at it01:49
@rizenjust saw it01:49
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SynQis create a small set of scripts there that will add stuff to your WRE to turn it into a developer suite too01:50
SynQlike all perl modules needed to run all tests01:50
SynQif you ask me we don't really need 64bit right now01:50
SynQbut the apache 2.2 we do need I think01:50
@rizenlike i said i'm not even looking at 64 bit01:51
@rizeni'm just trying to get it to compile at all at this point01:51
SynQI know you did01:51
@rizenand that's not happening01:51
@rizenuntil i get it to compile01:51
@rizennothing else matters01:51
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SynQindeed so01:51
SynQperhaps you should go and cook some dinner01:51
SynQcatch you later01:52
SynQgood night :)01:52
@rizencontinue with my wre frustrations into the night01:52
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CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9724 /wrebuild/ (build.sh wre/sbin/setenvironment.sh): a couple additional things to try to get wre to compile02:11
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9725 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (5 files in 4 dirs): 02:39
CIA-46WebGUI: Templates for archive, and edit story.02:39
CIA-46WebGUI: Added switches and URLs for adding stories.02:39
CIA-46WebGUI: Fixed date problems in the date_loop.02:39
CIA-46WebGUI: Fixed an autocommit issue with folders when there's no currently open version tag.02:39
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CIA-46WebGUI: brian * r9726 /branch/crop/lib/WebGUI/Asset/File/Image.pm: checkpoint03:11
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9727 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.pm: override www_add so that it makes or access a folder to hold stories.03:11
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9728 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/packages-7.7.0/root_import_storymanager_editstory.wgpkg: Fix a broken label.03:11
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9729 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm t/Asset/Story.t): 03:11
CIA-46WebGUI: Add a getArchive method to the Story. Test it.03:11
CIA-46WebGUI: Make www_edit work.03:11
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+patspamthe admin console icons seem to be all GIFs.. should new ones also be GIFs? or is PNG ok?03:42
@preactioni think png is okay03:52
+patspamok, thanks preaction04:46
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* patspam welcomes the post-dinner US crowd06:49
elninothanks patspam!06:53
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elninoanyone awake?10:53
ryuu_rohi there10:54
elninoI have 7.5.24,and am trying to use gallery.10:54
elninoI think there is a bug, would you be able to help?10:54
ryuu_ronot sure, what's the problem?10:54
elninoI'm getting calendar javascripts included on the photo gallery asset. (i'm looking AT the asset, it's not in a pagelayout.  <script type="text/javascript">window.webguiFirstDayOfWeek = '0'</script>10:55
elninoand there is about 50 of those <script> lines.10:55
elninojust weird.10:55
elninoI dont' see it in any template.10:55
elninoand of course it makes the page load slower.10:57
ryuu_rogood one, i'm running 7.6.13 and i see them too10:57
ryuu_robut I only have 5 of them10:58
elninoyou are???. wow. That's good to know. I'm searching bug reports, otherwise I'll create one. 10:58
elnino(the line wraps)10:58
elninoactually, in your case, the line probably isn't wrapping.10:59
ryuu_ronope, the line isn't wrapping in my source10:59
ryuu_rohow many albums do you have in your gallery?11:00
elninojust one.. http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/9779 - please vote! they think they fixed it in your version..  =(11:01
elninoyou SURE you have 7.6.13?11:02
ryuu_royep :)11:03
elninomay want to tell perlDreamer that.. maybe he wrote the wrong version. I guess I just have to update.11:04
ryuu_roi'm leaving him a message as we speak11:04
elninowell, off to bed. It's way late. I'm just glad I wasn't seeign things. Thanks for confirming the bug!11:04
ryuu_roupdating probably is the better thing to do11:04
ryuu_rono problem11:04
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@plainhaohow do you guys debug memory problems in a webgui environment? couldn't get b::tersesize configured properly, trying apache2::status but getting default wg homepage...15:40
+BartJolwell you can manage the maxclients in the apache conf15:42
+BartJolplainhao: that's also possible for the modperl15:43
@plainhaothanks, bart, i'll try that15:44
+BartJolso the main confs, not site confs15:44
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@plainhaosomething's eating up memory like crazy, though15:52
@plainhaoi need to track down the responsible modules15:53
+BartJolwhich processes?15:53
@plainhaosizelimit is killing the modperl process because it grows out of control15:53
+BartJolI have it once in a while that processes go on the run, mostly I restart modperl and modproxy15:53
@plainhaoi even upped the max15:54
@plainhaoso i have no choice but to track down the source of the problem15:54
+BartJolstrange, is that on a regular install?15:56
@plainhaopatched dev install of 7.5.2515:57
+BartJolwell, I'm afraid I can't track it down from here15:58
+BartJolso for now I can't help you more15:58
@plainhaothanks anyway :)15:59
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@plainhaois it safe to remove stuff from /tmp/WebGUICache?18:18
@plainhaostruggling to track down a modperl memory leak18:18
@rizenit's also safe to delete everything in the cache table if you're using database cache18:18
* plainhao thanks rizen.18:19
SynQ2hey rizen!18:21
SynQ2are you making progress on compilation yet?18:21
@rizenmade some18:21
@rizenfigured out that readline is the bitch18:22
SynQ2readline should be included in the wre18:22
SynQ2it bit me on debian once or twice before18:22
@rizenyeah, but when you have readline compiled into the wre (at least on mac) then apache and rsync don't want to compile18:22
@rizenit's only really needed for lftp18:22
@rizencurrently the only way i can figure to make it work is to18:23
@rizencompile lftp and readline into /data/wre/prereqs/lftp18:23
@rizenthen put a shell script in /data/wre/prereqs/bin/lftp18:23
@rizenthat points to it18:23
SynQ2sounds like a good way to deal with that for me18:23
@rizenand sets up the appropriate env18:23
@rizento me it seems like a jury rig18:23
@rizenso i'm trying to figure a way around it18:24
SynQ2wouldn't a pure perl alternative to lftp be the way to go?18:24
@rizennot really possible18:24
SynQ2lftp is only used for WRE backups right?18:24
@rizenunless you want to spend 20 years18:24
@rizenlftp does huge stuff18:24
@rizenand very well18:24
@rizenyes only for backups18:24
SynQ2I have seen what lftp can do18:25
SynQ2quite impressive indeed18:25
@rizenlftp is pretty much the most impressive file transfer system on the planet (besides rsync)18:25
@rizenanyway, i have it working like this now18:25
@rizenbut i'm still looking into another possibility18:25
@rizenhaarg thinks that maybe if i compile lftp last18:26
@rizenthe other things will keep working18:26
SynQ2but then a recompile won't work18:26
@rizenok i'll live with the hack for now18:26
SynQ2not that that should be a problem18:26
@rizenuntil someone comes up with something better18:26
SynQ2so will I18:26
+perlDreamerlose lftp.  backups are for wimps.18:27
+perlDreamercustomers don't backup anyway18:27
SynQ2unfortunately I don't have a mac so I cannot help you there18:27
* SynQ2 tips perlDreamer over like a spotted cow18:27
SynQ2don't use flaimbait on us18:27
SynQ2you know how allergic JT is to that18:27
@rizenwell pb is switching to rsync for all backups anyway18:28
SynQ2so am I18:28
@rizenbut we still have to support those people that use ftp, webdav, etc18:28
SynQ2and rsync over ssh works like a charm if you want it remote18:28
@rizenand that's where lftp comes in18:28
@rizenyup, that's what we're doing sync18:28
SynQ2well, for me you can skip that18:28
@rizenrsync is already compiling18:28
@rizennow that readline is out of the way18:28
@rizenthe reason i want it is that a lot of operating systems only come with the 2.x versions of rsync, and i want the 3.x version18:29
SynQ2I would say, ask the dev list if anyone still want to keep the ftp and webdav option18:29
SynQ2then just kick lftp out18:29
SynQ2if they don't18:29
@rizenwell the hack works for now18:29
@rizenwe can deal with that over time18:29
@rizenslowly migrate it out18:29
SynQ2shall I ask the dev list?18:29
@rizenfeel free18:29
SynQ2ok I will18:29
@rizenbut it's staying in for this release18:30
@rizenwe can take it out in the next18:30
@rizenif no one cares18:30
SynQ2indeed so18:30
SynQ2mail sent18:33
SynQ2any other problems in compiling?18:33
@rizenstill working out some stuff in build.sh regarding this new way of compiling lftp18:35
@rizenafter that i'll let you know18:35
@rizenwill be checking in this new version of build.sh shortly18:35
SynQ2drop me an e-mail and I'll checkout a version and try and compile again18:35
@rizenit's in svn now18:37
SynQ2last time I timed my builds18:37
SynQ2they took about 35 to 45 minutes18:38
@rizenSynQ2: what type of operating systems are you building on?18:38
SynQ2for a build.sh --all18:38
SynQ2debian etch 32bits18:38
@rizenok, that's a pretty standard linux, so if it works there it should work on most/all linuxes18:38
@rizenthat's good to hear18:38
SynQ2checking it out now18:38
@rizenthe bane of my existence is usually freebsd18:39
@rizenhopefully it will go well there18:39
SynQ2I'm helping you hope that18:40
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SynQ2it's one of the reasons we ditched freebsd18:40
SynQ2I'm gonna do a getsource.sh first18:41
SynQ2and a getperlmodules.sh18:41
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9730 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (23 files in 14 dirs): merge back with HEAD for 7.7.018:41
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9731 /wrebuild/ (build.sh wre/sbin/setenvironment.sh): fixed lftp / readline issues18:41
+BartJolweren't you going home 2 hours ago SynQ?18:41
@rizenSynQ2: btw, those get....sh modules, are awesome! nice work.18:42
SynQ2thanks you are very welcome18:42
SynQ2mysql 5.1.32 is available :)18:43
SynQ2I see now that I want that18:43
+perlDreamerthe last time we looked at mysql 5.1 it cost us 3 hours of core work18:43
SynQ2because: Incompatible Change:          The fix for Bug#33699 introduced a change to the         UPDATE statement such that         assigning NULL to a NOT         NULL column caused an error even when strict SQL mode         was not enabled. 18:43
SynQ2perlDreamer: that is exactly why I want .3218:44
SynQ2since that is fixed now18:44
SynQ2JT: is it OK if I update that later?18:44
@rizenuntil we're starting to build for release18:45
@rizenyou can keep updating modules18:45
@rizensince i haven't gotten even one successful compile yet, i don't think we're very close to starting to build for release18:45
SynQ2ok :)18:45
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SynQ2JT: build is running now18:46
SynQ2I'm gonna use the time it is taking to drive home18:47
SynQ2catch you later18:47
+perlDreamerrizen: is it about 11:26 am where you are?19:24
CIA-46WebGUI: koen * r9732 /wrebuild/getsource.sh: fixed tar xvf line for rsync19:24
+perlDreamerat some point I'm going to submit an RFE for the timezones of admin and Visitor to be adjusted to local time zone during install/setup19:26
@Haargdoesn't it do that already?19:40
@Haargor do you mean by detecting the local time zone?19:40
+perlDreamerAdmin's time zone is Chicago19:48
+perlDreamerwhich at first told me that I was creating stories at the wrong time19:48
+perlDreamerbut that's not the problem19:48
+perlDreamerthe problem is that Admin's time zone is Chicago, and Chicago is two hours ahead of Portland19:49
+perlDreamerbut since I'm Admin, and I live in Portland, I'd prefer it if Admin were always my time zone, whereever I happen to be.19:49
+perlDreamerso when it goes through setup/install, it would be handy if it set Admin's time zone to here.19:50
+perlDreamerwhich I could do with another --util script to wgd reset19:51
+perlDreamermaybe the problem is that I'm not going through the site starter19:51
@rizenit already does that pd19:52
@rizenon the blue screen during site setup19:52
@rizenit asks you about your timezone19:52
@rizennot for visitor19:52
@rizenbut for admin19:52
@rizenwell maybe it sets it for visitor too, i can't remember it19:52
@rizenbut what haarg said is correct19:52
@rizenit does set it19:52
@rizeni did that in 7.519:52
@rizenyes, that's your problem19:53
@rizennot going through the site starter19:53
+perlDreamerso I shouldn't skip the site setup if I want it to do that.  I'll just quit whinging ;)19:53
+perlDreamerit does Visitor, too19:53
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9733 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (4 files in 4 dirs): 20:01
CIA-46WebGUI: Add stories to a story archive.20:01
CIA-46WebGUI: i18n support for that.20:01
CIA-46WebGUI: log problems when calling www_add in the story archive.20:01
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* perlDreamer goes to the gym. bbl20:28
* preaction eats a whole batch of cookies20:34
+BartJolpreaction: trying to keep the health well balanced in the community?20:35
@preactionjust helping deafferret  keep perlDreamer properly demotivated20:36
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9734 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Add a cancel button to the edit story form.20:36
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9735 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/ (Help/Asset_Story.pm i18n/English/Asset_Story.pm): Help and i18n for the edit story template.20:36
* rizen likes cookies20:36
* BartJol likes raw herring20:37
* rizen gags20:37
+BartJolwell, don't be affraid, we won't take them to the wuc20:38
@rizeni'm sure there's plenty of people at the wuc that would like it20:41
@rizenthe diversity of the group there is pretty large20:41
+BartJolmartin doesn't20:41
+BartJolso not all dutch people like it20:41
+BartJolwe're not all insane :)20:41
+BartJolplainhao: already succes with your runaway perl problem?20:42
@plainhaonope :)20:43
@plainhaolooks like a memory leak somewhere20:43
+BartJolwell, I do have some time now, so just give me a root account and I have all the means :)20:43
@plainhaonot in my code, though, someone else's20:43
* plainhao is not allowed to give BartJol access, unfortunately.20:44
+BartJolalready some idea in what module?20:44
@plainhaosomeone else's modules :)20:44
@plainhaousing Moose!20:44
* plainhao thanks BartJol for the offer, though.20:45
+BartJolwell, I suppose nobody trusts it when someone says  "give me root access"20:46
+BartJolI wouldn't20:46
* plainhao doesn't trust himself with root access.20:46
* rizen doesn't trust anyone with root access20:47
@rizenexcept SynQ2 20:47
@rizeni'd trust SynQ2 with root access on a box with no critical data and no network cable plugged into it20:48
+BartJolah, I was already doubting your sanity20:48
+BartJoland no wireless I supose20:48
@rizenno networking of any kind20:48
@rizennot even sneaker net20:49
@rizenso no usb ports20:49
+BartJolwell, as long as his intentions are good I trust him20:49
+BartJolthey mostly are20:50
@rizenif it's about business, i trust him20:50
@rizenif it's just an attempt to get root access, then i worry20:50
+BartJolwell, you can see that as a security test20:51
+BartJolmost people I kknow (outside procolix/oqapi etc) aready think you're a hacker when you're using putty20:52
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+BartJollooking at the code, the language is only a profileField, but I am uncertain whether you can set it as a session variable somehow21:07
+BartJolmaybe a scratch or stow...21:08
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+perlmonkey2plainhao: Which module had the moose leak?  21:27
* plainhao is going to try including the custom modules in preload.exclude.21:28
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@plainhaoare @INC modules always preloaded in wre by default?21:52
+BartJolI thought you had to run setenvironment 21:54
+BartJolor is that not what you mean?21:55
@Haargwebgui's lib directory is not, with or without setenv21:56
@plainhaosorry, meant preloaded in wre modperl21:57
* plainhao is seeing every module on the planet preloaded when he turns on apache2::status21:58
@Haargeverything in WebGUI/lib and anything listed in preload.custom is21:58
@Haargeverything inside dirs listed in preload.custom21:59
@Haargif you don't want it preloaded, you can just list in as an inc path in the apache config21:59
* plainhao thanks Haarg.22:00
* perlDreamer1 is back. Consumption of raw fish cookies can now stop.22:11
* BartJol is thinking: "mmmm, raw fish cookies".22:12
perlDreamer1BartJol, how's that house?22:12
+BartJolstill slow and today I got a awkward notice22:13
+BartJolthat I do have to arrange the new meters (water and electricity)22:13
+BartJolbut actually I'm thinking that guy just wants to sneak out of the arrangement22:14
+BartJolhe tried all kind of thing with my future neighbour22:14
perlDreamer1stick it to him, BartJol22:15
+BartJolI'll try22:15
+BartJolhe says that the energy company said it to him, so I do want to see that letter22:16
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9736 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 22:53
CIA-46WebGUI: Change how the view template variables work. It no longer appends, viewTemplateVars22:53
CIA-46WebGUI: makes them all.22:53
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SynQhmm root access huh23:13
SynQperhaps I should pick up the trade of hacking WebGUI :P23:13
+perlDreamerbut then you'd have to do the whole hacker lifestyle23:13
+perlDreamerhacker clothing23:13
+perlDreamerhacker friends23:13
SynQdon't I do allready?23:13
+perlDreamerhacker body piercings23:13
+BartJolah, it's hosenozzle 1123:13
+perlDreamervery inconvenient for a respectable business person like yourself23:14
SynQI'm wearing a oqapi hoody23:14
SynQI have JT as a friend23:14
+BartJolI have the JT-Che t-shirt on23:14
+BartJolso we are dressed appropiately23:14
SynQwhat are hacker body pierciengs like? anus piercing?23:14
+perlDreameroh, and I almost forgot23:15
+perlDreameryou have to write tests every month for WebGUI23:15
SynQwell that is probably true23:15
SynQsince to hack WebGUI I'd probably have to do that just to understand enough of it23:15
SynQsounds like an awful lot of trouble23:16
SynQBuilding Complete And Successful23:20
@rizeni wish synq23:21
@rizenstill can't get apache to compile23:21
SynQand you can if you just don't install readline?23:22
@rizenno now it seems to be something else23:22
+BartJolSynQ++? now we have two of those!23:22
+perlDreamerkarma SynQ23:22
+perlDreamerperlbot: karma SynQ23:22
perlbotKarma for SynQ: 223:22
@rizenperhaps iconv, i'm trying a few things23:22
SynQI do have libreadline5-dev installed on debian23:22
SynQso perhaps while compiling apache it is using that23:22
SynQBart: SynQ2 is the irc client in the office23:23
+perlDreamerwell, I'm only giving karma to one of you23:23
SynQJT: I've updated the mysql so do update your checked out code :)23:23
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9737 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/ (Help/Asset.pm i18n/English/Asset.pm): Document the missing keywords template variable that is now added to all assets.23:25
CIA-46WebGUI: koen * r9738 /wrebuild/ (build.sh getsource.sh): updated mysql to use 5.1.3223:25
SynQI have missed a spot23:26
SynQand fixed23:28
SynQrizen: can you paste the error you get while compiling into a pastebin?23:29
SynQperhaps I can see something familiar there23:29
SynQpreferably some extra than just the error23:30
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@frodwithSo hey, nosy n00b question for some WebGUI veteran or another.  How come WebGUI preloads all its junk at mod_perl startup?23:43
@rizenit looks like an SSL error23:43
@rizenbut it's not really23:43
@rizenfrodwith: cuz it's far more memory efficient to do so23:44
@frodwithAh, with the pre-forking?23:44
@frodwithshared memory and all that?23:44
@rizenwith webgui 8 i hope to be able to use webgui in a threaded mode if possible, cuz then we can use a lot less memory23:47
+perlDreamerwebgui: woven and spun23:48
SynQrizen: and skip apache all together23:49
SynQjust run it under fastcgi and nginx23:49
@rizenSynQ: that's slower23:50
@rizenat least the last time i benchmarked23:50
SynQwith nginx?23:50
@rizennever tried with nginx, but my guess is it will be too23:50
@rizenapache with fastcgi vs apache with modperl23:50
@rizenmodperl was roughly 2x faster23:50
SynQI think we should at least benchmark it again when WebGUI can run in threaded mode23:51
@rizenSynQ: you don't have to paste me any links. i guarantee you i've read them all23:52
@rizenbeen working on this problem for 5 days now23:52
SynQoh ok23:52
@rizenand it has nothing to do with openssl23:52
SynQseems to me the problem is not with readline23:52
SynQbut with openssl23:52
@rizenit's not23:52
SynQwhy not?23:52
@rizencuz if i get rid of all the stuff in the utils build23:52
@rizenexcept openssl23:53
@rizenthen apache builds fine23:53
@rizenso it's something else in the utils build23:53
@rizencausing a problem23:53
SynQopenssl is in the utils build23:53
CIA-46WebGUI: koen * r9739 /wrebuild/getsource.sh: missed a 31 -> 32 spot23:53
@rizenso i'm compiling over and over again23:54
@rizeneach time getting rid of one more thing23:54
@rizento see what it is23:54
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@rizeni really hate working with all new modules23:55
@rizenWRE 0.8 compiles so clean and easy23:55
@rizenupgrade everything23:55
@rizenand you've got no idea what's introducing errors23:55
SynQI agree with you23:56
SynQupdating all modules at once is a pain23:57
SynQthat is why I suggested updating them more regularly23:57
SynQbut on my debian box that WRE compiles flawlessly23:58
@rizenyeah, and linux is the easiest thing in the world to compile on cuz everything was written on linux23:58
@rizenthat's why i don't ever compile on linux first23:59
@rizeni always start with freebsd or mac23:59
SynQI understand23:59
--- Day changed Fri Mar 06 2009
SynQand I feel your pain, I have compiled perl multiple times on HP-UX and IRIX00:00
SynQand I can tell you, that is even worse00:00
SynQbtw: using that mysql 5.1.32 probably fixes all the trouble we had with those NULL values00:00
SynQsince 5.1.31 was doing scrict mode on them even if strict mode was not enabled00:01
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SynQrizen: I hate to tell you this, but _BIO_set_callback_arg and _SSL_CTX_set_info_callback are both symbols that are defined by openssl so it MUST be caused by the apache compile not being able to find them00:05
SynQperhaps this link is of some help: http://www.mail-archive.com/openssl-dev@openssl.org/msg22777.html00:06
+perlDreamerstreaming audio really isn't too bad00:08
@rizenSynQ: stop00:08
@rizenyou're wrong00:08
@rizeni know it looks like an open ssl error00:08
@rizenbut it's NOT00:08
@rizenplease don't help00:08
SynQok I won't00:08
SynQgood luck then00:08
@rizenunless you want to get a mac and try it yourself00:08
@rizenthen you can help00:08
+patspamperlDreamer: we've been playing with streaming video/audio lately00:09
+perlDreameris it hard to set up on a server?00:10
SynQif it's something else then there should have been other errors before the one you pasted00:10
+patspamnot if you use HTTP :)00:10
+perlDreamerI'm just listening to a radio station that I don't reception for in my house00:10
+patspamjust settled on Longtail flash player with Amazon S3 for the files00:10
SynQas soon as I can afford it I will get a mac so I will be able to help you00:10
+BartJolwell, good luck with compiling and listing to radio, it's bedtime for me I guess00:11
+perlDreamergood night, BartJol00:12
+patspamnight Bart!00:12
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+perlDreamerrizen, I had this weird idea last night00:13
+perlDreamerif we switch to TemplateToolkit, I think we can stop using the Macro system00:13
+perlDreamerTT should let us define very simple subroutines that users can call from template code00:13
@rizenperlDreamer: i've already thought about that and decided against it...at least for the time being00:14
@rizenmacros are used in places other than templates00:14
@Haargbut we can add the ability to call macros directly from templates00:15
@rizenthat we can do00:15
+perlDreamerHow's that different from how it works now?00:15
@rizencall the code directly00:15
@rizenrather than parsing00:15
SynQrizen: this is the last thing I'll point you to and that is it http://marc.info/?l=apache-httpd-bugs&m=121750480523495&w=4 00:16
SynQcan't help helping00:16
SynQthat guy fiddled with the ./configure syntax on mac a little and claims it got it compiling00:17
SynQseems worth the try to me00:17
@rizeni'll try it after this next compile00:17
@rizeni've already got it going00:17
@rizenmight as well see if this run works00:17
SynQindeed so00:18
SynQhave you noteced too that for two perl modules the ./build.sh still asks for human input?00:18
@rizencuz i can't get that far00:19
@rizenperlDreamer: great idea though, keep those coming00:20
+perlDreamerwell, there is one other thing00:20
+perlDreamerwe have to be very, very careful what we allow TT to have access to00:20
+perlDreamersince it will happily execute method calls on objects00:21
+perlDreamerso we can't ever pass in a session00:21
+perlDreameror anything that has a session00:21
+perlDreamersince then you could do session.db.write('update auth set passwd = ""')00:21
+perlDreameror other kinds of bad stuff00:21
+perlDreamerthere are probably config options for that00:22
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9740 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/packages-7.7.0/ (3 files): Template/folder clean-up00:23
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9741 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/packages-7.7.0/root_import_storymanager.wgpkg: Fix namespace in Story template00:23
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9742 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.pm: 00:23
CIA-46WebGUI: Fix label typos in storiesPerPage.00:23
@rizeni don't plan on giving it anything other than variables00:23
CIA-46WebGUI: Add Story templateId.00:23
@rizenjust like the current template engine00:23
@rizenif we expose macros, like graham said, we can pass in session to the macro on behalf of the template engine00:24
@rizenand then macros only take text parameters00:24
@rizenwhich will work in templates00:24
@rizenSynQ: same problem00:27
+patspamrizen: hola00:28
+patspamare you planning on (or interested in) being in the dev environment panel/talk?00:29
@rizeni'm not going to be in it00:29
@rizengraham will be00:29
@rizenHaarg that is00:29
+patspamI thought arjan put his hand up but he was just saying he wanted to see it00:29
+patspamyep, wgd is going to be the star feature00:30
@rizenyou're also going to talk a bit about git, right?00:30
+patspamI'd love to have another angle on how people work with webgui in their daily dev life00:30
@rizeni don't think there should be more than one PB person represented in the panel00:30
@rizenotherwise it is too weighted00:30
+patspamok, sure00:30
+patspammaybe I'll try knowmad00:30
@rizenmaybe you can get 00:31
@rizenor someone from oqapi00:31
@rizenhenry from alpha mega hosting would be good too00:31
+patspamexcellent, I'll send them an email now00:32
+patspamis henry on the mailing list?00:32
+perlDreamerwgd needs a whole talk by itself00:32
@rizenno space for it00:32
+perlDreamerand Haarg needs a bonus for all the time he's saving devs00:32
@preactionisn't Haarg giving a talk about it for our madmongers thing?00:33
+perlDreamermaybe an expense account at the Great Dane00:33
@Haargnothing planned preaction but it would be reasonable00:33
+patspamit'll be cool because we'll show off all these little things we've been using to make life easier, and then Haarg will show how you can do it all with wgd.. and more00:33
@preactionthen we could put it on wg.tv or something as well00:33
@rizenif haarg had a talk about wgd separate from the panel00:35
@rizenwould you still have enough to talk about at the panel?00:35
@preactionif he talks about the technical, programming aspects of wgd, and then talks about what you can do with the current state of wgd at the panel, there should be enough00:36
@preactioni mean, madmongers will be more interested in how he did it, not what it does00:36
+patspamnot currently, we'd have to get more companies on board (right now there's just me and Haarg)00:36
@rizenok then, we'll leave it as is00:37
@rizenhaarg is itching to get rid of one of his other talks00:37
@rizenwhich we could do00:37
@rizenbut only if you'd have enough content in the panel 00:37
+patspamcurrent grand total number of responses to the Australian WebGUI Census... zero00:38
+perlDreamerWhat about Radix_?00:38
+perlDreamerand Radix_wrk?00:38
SynQrizen: too bad00:38
+perlDreamerthat's worse, patspam, because there should have been at least one00:39
* patspam searches his spam folder without success00:41
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9743 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm: Viewing stories is now possible.00:59
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9744 /branch/WebGUI_Story/docs/upgrades/packages-7.7.0/root_import_storymanager.wgpkg: 00:59
CIA-46WebGUI: Fixes to edit story, view story templates. There is no summary field, it's00:59
CIA-46WebGUI: subtitle.00:59
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+perlDreamerrizen, within reason, I can add modules to WebGUI for the StoryManager?01:57
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@rizenthat seems a bit open ended to me01:57
@rizenwhat are you thinking?01:57
+perlDreamerThere is a module for formatting durations that gives exactly what the Story display needs.01:58
+perlDreamerso, within reason = 1 or 2 small ones01:58
@rizenoh you mean prereqs01:59
@rizeni thought you meant write new core modules01:59
+perlDreamersorry, make that vague and open ended ;)01:59
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9745 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 01:59
CIA-46WebGUI: change names of loops to be _loop vs Loop.01:59
CIA-46WebGUI: Added keyword loop variable.01:59
CIA-46WebGUI: Change subtitle to a textarea.01:59
CIA-46WebGUI: Add tests for Story template variables.01:59
@rizenyeah DateTime::* is good01:59
+perlDreamerbtw, you can add and view stories through the UI now01:59
+perlDreamerthey're not pretty, and they're not fully functional yet01:59
SynQhttp://demo.webgui.nl 02:04
SynQhow fast is that02:04
SynQcompared to http://demo.webgui.org02:04
SynQfor you in the states?02:04
SynQfor me, after creating a site and logging in when I click 'turn admin on' the difference is 6.5 seconds for demo.webgui.org and 1.2 seconds for demo.webgui.nl02:07
SynQthat demo.webgui.nl is running the newly compiled WRE svn HEAD version btw02:07
SynQI have used lori (firefox plugin) to time that. times mentioned are time-to-complete02:12
+patspamI'm about to try with Hammerhead02:12
+patspam(firebug plugin)02:12
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+patspamAdmin Mode will be very latency-sensitive (and hence locate sensitive) because of the large number of requests02:13
SynQI understand02:15
+patspame.g. they'll both be slow for me in australia =p02:16
SynQwhich makes you a good benchmark02:17
+patspam15 seconds vs. 14 seconds on an empty cache (demo.webgui.nl faster)02:24
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SynQthat is not much of a difference02:25
SynQone second02:25
SynQperhaps if I tune mysql some more02:25
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Mech422Homeperldreamer: I'm supposed to get up a vm for you, aren't I ?02:27
SynQpatspam: could you try again? I have now turned the tmpdir to a ramdisk02:36
SynQI'm thinking02:37
SynQsince a demo is temporary anyway02:37
SynQwhy not put the demo domains dir into ram too...02:37
SynQblazingly fast02:39
SynQcan you do that again02:40
SynQwith these improvements I just did02:40
+patspami think i did them after the ramdisk change02:40
+patspamyou want me to do it again again?02:40
SynQthe ramdiskchange was done at 1:3802:41
SynQthat was the time I put the /data/domains/demo dir to ramdisk too02:41
+patspamempty cache with Admin On still averages 13.5 seconds02:43
Mech422Homepatspam: for how many requests ?02:43
SynQwhat surprises me02:44
SynQis that with admin off .org is faster02:44
SynQand with admin on .nl is faster02:44
+patspami must have better latency to .nl and .org02:45
+patspamMech422Home: 104 requests02:45
+patspamadmin mode in all its glory02:45
+patspam732.2K Total size02:45
Mech422Home.13/request - very nice :-)02:45
+patspamSynQ: server-side tweaks probably won't change much, since the request overhead/latency is the dominating factor with admin mode on02:46
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Mech422Homepatspam: the size probably isn't a big factor - given its the admin mode, time is prolly mostly for checking permissions, generating personalizations, etc - doing all that in .13 sec is very nice :-)02:47
SynQthat justifies a plee for local demo sites around the world02:47
+patspamMech422Home: most of them are static files served up by modproxy, so it doesn't have to do much02:48
Mech422Homepatspam: really?  ohh....02:48
+patspamSynQ: I'm going to try again with lori because Hammerhead seems a bit buggy02:49
SynQpatspam: I don't think I can get that demo system to go any faster than what it is now02:49
SynQI was hoping that it would prove faster then demo.webgui.org02:50
SynQwhich feels very slow for me compared to demo.webgui.nl02:50
SynQbut it could indeed be that it's the locality that is the killer02:50
SynQany US based people with lori around?02:50
Mech422HomeSynQ: If there are debian packages for it - I can hit it from our co-lo'd servers ?02:51
Mech422HomeSynQ: though I really wouldn'02:51
Mech422Homewouldn't worry too much - less then 1 second is gonna seem very quick to humans..02:51
SynQdebian packages?02:51
Mech422Homeand anyone doing mechanized tests would factor in location, etc02:52
SynQI don't think I understand what you are getting at02:52
Mech422HomeSynq: I'm assuming lori is some sort of benchmark package ?02:52
SynQit is a firefox plugin02:52
SynQthat shows you the load time of a page02:52
Mech422Homeoh - I'm on a crappy cable connection - my times are gonna suck02:52
SynQand the 'from click to first byte' time02:52
Mech422Homebut I think I have it installed - I have yslow too if ya like02:53
SynQI'm looking for the difference in 'feel' between demo.webgui.org and demo.webgui.nl02:53
SynQcould you create a demo site on both of them and tell me which feels faster02:53
Mech422Homegimme a minute02:53
+patspamSynQ: http://webgui.pastebin.com/d1b7cd42702:55
Mech422Homefeels nice - I don't have lori installed - but I can install it real quick if ya tell me what url ya want tested ?02:55
SynQwhat feels nice/02:56
SynQpatspam: that looks more in favour of .nl02:56
SynQstill 10 seconds02:57
SynQthat is a long wait02:57
SynQI don't envy you02:57
+patspamMech422Home: use these02:57
+Radix-wrkthey're what I get.. wierd that the kb downloaded is 50kb higher for the webgui.org vs the .nl - yet identical page and selections on each one and cleared cache before each one03:00
+Radix-wrkthat's purely the first page on each... no login03:00
SynQpatspam: http://webgui.pastebin.com/d3f2106a103:01
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+patspamSynQ: I hate you03:02
SynQRadix-wrk: you are also in .AU right?03:02
SynQpatspam: I'm sorry03:02
SynQyou are welcome to move over here03:02
SynQit's not so hot here and the lines are good03:02
+Radix-wrkyup, but I'm on the other coast to patspam and so got different links to US/EU03:02
SynQa better one?03:02
+Radix-wrknot always03:03
SynQpatspam: to make you feel better....03:03
SynQdev.anxietyonline.org.au takes me 7.34 to load03:03
SynQfront page03:04
+patspam3.5 seconds for me, with a hard refresh03:04
Mech422Homegrr.. Iceweasel is being a pill - it seems yslow and lori don't display in the bottom any more..03:04
Mech422HomeI think liveheaders or webdev swallows lori doesn't it ?03:05
Mech422Homelemme see if its buried under one of hem03:05
--- Log opened Fri Mar 06 09:37:23 2009
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--- Log opened Fri Mar 06 12:49:12 2009
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wgGuest89no specific question.. was wondering if a chat functionality is present in WegBUI cms12:50
@preactionwhat kind of chat? there's a shoutbox available in the bazaar i believe12:53
wgGuest89ok, I'll check. Thanks!12:54
@preactionwgGuest89: if you can't find it, come back tomorrow and i'll have fixed it up and added it. it's been on my to-do list for a very long time12:59
* bartjol is going for lunch13:03
--- Log opened Fri Mar 06 13:29:28 2009
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juanupgrading webgui from 7.5.40 to 7.6.11, i had some errors16:18
juanfor example the first error duplicate column url, i try to fix it16:19
juani deleted this field for the table and then i try to run the upgrade again and appears the second error16:20
juani don't know if is the best way to fix them16:20
ckotilThe dev's are going to tell you to back out of the upgrade16:22
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carograypanicking about server upgrade next wednesday17:22
carograyWhat does this mean?17:22
carograyThe Web Services Client is no longer part of the official distribution of WebGUI, but is still available to be maintained by third-parties. However, if you don't want to use Web Services Client any longer, make sure you delete all Web Services Clients from your site prior to the upgrade *and* purge them from your trash. Then the upgrade will automatically uninstall the Web Services Client from your site.17:22
carograywhat is the "Web Services Client"?17:22
@Haargit's an asset17:25
@Haargused for interacting with SOAP servers17:25
@Haargthere were a number of problems with its functions and implementation17:26
@rizenand it didn't really comply with our user interface specifications17:28
@rizenwe want all assets in webgui to be usable by normal users17:28
carograyso from your answer I can assume that we at MLRI and our program sites don't need to worry our little brains with it? we are not using any are we?17:33
@rizeni doubt very much that you would have ever used it17:33
@rizenexcept maybe to see what it was17:33
@rizenhardly anybody was using it (less than 1% of our user base)17:33
carograywe use a Google search that wouldn't be what you are talking about would it?17:33
@rizenif lots of people were using something, we certainly wouldn't get rid of it17:34
@rizenwe'd spruce it up and make it easier to use17:34
carograyok thanks - next question?17:34
carograyis the only way to detect whether templates are using Head blocks either to go and look at each template or run another blinkin SQL report?17:35
@rizenyep, you'd have to run an sql report17:36
carograyugh - that's what I was afraid of. if they head blocks are merged with Extra head tags and there is stuff in the head blocks - will they just be in the Extra head tags after the upgrade or would I need to copy stuff from Head blocks to Extra Head tags?17:37
@rizenthe upgrade will move it for you17:38
carograyHOORAY! so I don't have to go and look at every template ! and if it's in the extra head tags it should work anyway right?17:38
@rizenselect url,extraHeadTags from assetData left join asset using (assetId) where extraHeadTags<>'';17:39
@rizenif you want to use an sql report to look in advance17:39
@rizenthat's the query17:39
@rizenin general it should *just work*17:40
@rizenwe tell you about the change for 2 reasons17:40
carograythanks - really, but if the stuff is just moved to Extra Head tags and it should work then...I might just try the query for "kicks" - literally17:40
@rizen1) if something doesn't work, then you know where to look17:40
@rizen2) next time you edit the template, you don't freak out and go "where's my head block field!!!!?!?!???!!!"17:40
carograyso I should try to run the query and then check after upgrade to see...ok thanks 17:40
carograycan I ask who you are Rizen?17:41
carograymay I rather?17:41
@rizenrizen = JT@PB17:41
carograyI thought so. Funny how your tone can even come through in this medium..:)17:41
carograyOne last question..17:41
carograyif my templates for the tell a friend thing work on the demo should they not work after our upgrade?17:42
+bartjolmost people here rizen is another word for god17:42
@rizeni hope my tone isn't offensive to you. =)17:42
+bartjolan angry, vengeful god that is ;)17:42
+bartjolno he's nice17:43
carograynot to me!!! I am ever so grateful ALWAYS for the patience and tolerance and willingness to teach you have shown me over the last 4 years17:43
carograyand to bartjol to and the two Perldreamer and Perlmonkey and preaction too17:43
carograybut I have only made their acquaintance recentlly17:44
@rizenyeah, tell a friend should work the same before and after17:44
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carograyanyhow I have to run off to an appt 17:44
@rizenthe example of tell a friend is built right into webgui demo17:44
@rizenso it better work17:44
carograyuh - I noticed that - but my template  I made it pretty with special fields that are blue and bluer... a la BBC.co.uk17:45
carograywill that be lost? 17:45
carograygotta go - will check back when I return17:45
+bartjolhey rizen, I was thinking on my language stuff, I'd just might wanna set a scratch variable in the setting for another language than the user of the session17:46
+bartjolwould that be something acceptable17:46
+bartjolit feels a bit dirty17:46
@rizendon't think that will be a problem carogray17:46
@rizenbartjol: tell me the problem you're trying to solve and we can work together on a solution17:46
+bartjolI'm thinking bilangual17:47
+perlDreameri18n typo fixed, bartjol.  Sorry for the wait.17:47
+bartjolso when a user (let's say the visitor user) wants to change language, he presses a button (which activates a content handler prolly)17:47
+bartjoland huray!17:48
+bartjolso you need only 1 template17:48
+bartjolfor 1 page17:48
+bartjolbut can see it in different languages17:49
+bartjolI'm not talking content17:49
@rizenso the problem is that you want to build a multi lingual site where the users aren't logged in17:49
@rizenso that you can interactively change languages on the fly 17:49
+bartjoland the language is coupled to the user object17:49
+bartjolyou can change it, but only through the profileField method17:50
+bartjolso then you set the profile field in the profile17:50
@rizenseems like a scratch variable is the way to go, but it should be built into the api, not some undocumented willy nilly scratch variable off in nevernever land17:50
+bartjolbut I'll have to change quit some stuff17:51
+bartjolI thik17:51
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@rizenit should only need to be changed in 2 methods in the WebGUI::International module17:52
@rizenand then you'd be done17:52
+bartjolbecause everywhere there is "$user->profileField("language"); you have to make an || statment with $session->getScratch("language");17:52
@rizenit looks at session->user->profileField("language")17:52
@rizenso you just add a check for the scratch variable first17:52
+bartjollike something I described above, but th\en in correct perl17:53
@rizenyeah but it's all in WebGUI::International17:53
@rizenit's not EVERYWHERE?17:53
@rizenjust one module17:53
@rizenand you're done17:53
+bartjolok, that's a relieve17:53
+bartjol3 or 4 other places too I see17:55
+bartjolbut that's ok17:55
@rizenit should only be in one place17:56
@rizenalso you should create a getLanguage() method in WebGUI::International17:56
@rizenwhich does this check17:56
@rizenand then make that called everywhere17:56
+bartjolbart@bart/data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI> grep -R language . |grep profileField17:56
+bartjol./Asset/RichEdit.pm:    my $language  = $i18n->getLanguage($self->session->user->profileField("language"),"languageAbbreviation");17:56
+bartjol./International.pm:     $language = $language || $self->{_language} || $self->session->user->profileField("language") || "English";17:56
+bartjol./International.pm:    $language ||= $session->user->profileField('language');17:56
+bartjol./Session/Icon.pm:              $url .= WebGUI::International->new($self->session,'Icon')->getLanguage($self->session->user->profileField("language"),"toolbar");17:56
+bartjol./Session/DateTime.pm:  my $language = $i18n->getLanguage($self->session->user->profileField('language'));17:56
+bartjol./User.pm: $languagePreference =        $u->profileField("language",1);17:56
+bartjol./DateTime.pm:       my $language = $i18n->getLanguage($session->user->profileField('language'));17:56
+bartjoltoo much info, sorry17:56
SynQhi there17:57
SynQpastebin is your friend :P17:57
+bartjolI know17:57
+bartjolthat's why I make an excuse17:57
SynQbart, have you seen demo.webgui.nl ?17:57
SynQI think we are going to have to remove the 'invite a friend' link from there17:58
SynQfrom the demo content that is17:58
+bartjolbetter: http://webgui.pastebin.com/m10001ec717:58
+bartjolah, you mean if you make a demo17:59
+bartjolit's in the prefab content?17:59
+bartjolbut rizen, I'm not sure whether those other stuff also get i18n messages, prolly they do18:00
+bartjolwell, I won't stop you :)18:00
SynQrizen: did you know that if you use demo.webgui.org from australia or europe it can be dead slow?18:01
@rizenSynQ: got wre to build cleanly18:01
SynQwhat was the curlpit?18:01
@rizenspent most of the night working through all the niggly bits18:01
@rizenit was quite a few things actually18:01
@rizenbut the main thing is that apache doesn't like libiconv18:01
SynQtel me about it18:01
@rizenfor some reason18:01
+bartjolcool stuff! on freebsd and mac?18:01
@rizenjust on mac18:02
SynQwas it indeed not to do with ssl?18:02
@rizenright, no ssl problems18:02
SynQconfusing error then18:02
SynQis it all in svn/18:02
@rizenit's probably something to do with libiconv and openssl not interacting nicely18:02
@rizenor something18:02
@rizenso it probably is to do with openssl18:03
SynQand did you use mysql 5.1.32 or 5.1.31 ?18:03
@rizenjust not directly18:03
@rizeni did 3118:03
SynQyou should use .3218:03
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9750 /WebGUI/t/Storage.t: Remove debugging code.18:03
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9751 /WebGUI/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix an i18n typo in the Post user defined variables.18:03
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9752 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (2 files in 2 dirs): backporting i18n fix18:03
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9753 /wrebuild/build.sh: fixed some build problems on mac18:03
CIA-46WebGUI: jt * r9754 /wrebuild/build.sh: getting rid of old cruft18:03
SynQthere is an annoying bug in .31 that does strict mode on 'null' fields even when not in strict mode18:03
SynQwhich can potentially break a lot of things that are not being tested right now18:04
@rizeni understand that synq18:04
@rizenbut at 1am18:04
@rizeni didn't care about that18:04
@rizeni cared about getting apache to build18:04
SynQI understand18:04
SynQyou are a hero after all18:04
SynQI prefer the word hero to the word god you know18:04
SynQsince hero is a brand of softdrinks here in the Netherlands :P18:05
@rizenanyway no i didn't know that demo would be slow internationally, but it makes sense18:05
@rizenespecially to oz18:05
SynQperhaps the values are still in the pastebin18:05
SynQbut to give you a figure18:05
SynQin oz it takes 14 seconds to load a page in admin mode18:05
SynQthere it is18:06
SynQand from here it can easily add more then one second to the page load-time18:06
SynQthe 10+ second values are patspams18:07
SynQthe 2- second values are mine18:07
@rizeneven for me at my office demo can take almost 10 seconds to load the page going from normal user to admin mode for the first time18:07
@rizenthat's cuz nothing is cached18:07
@rizenand it's downloading a lot of crap18:07
@rizenand we have a small pipe at our office18:07
SynQthat sucks18:07
@rizenafter the first load though18:08
@rizenif i switch it on and off18:08
@rizenabout 1 second18:08
SynQlike my values18:08
SynQif you compare demo.webgui.org to demo.webgui.nl which one feels faster?18:08
SynQdemo.webgui.nl is running on the new WRE18:09
SynQwith /data/domains/demo in ramdisk18:09
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SynQand database tmpdir also in ramdisk18:09
@rizenthe .nl one is definitely faster18:09
SynQthat is an amazing result18:09
@rizenwell you're running in ramdisk18:10
@rizenthat should be a hell of a lot faster18:10
SynQbut still18:10
SynQgoing across the ocean helps to add a lot of time18:10
@rizenbut disk access is truly slow18:10
SynQI agree18:10
@rizenespecially since our demo server is probably far more loaded down than yours18:10
+bartjol8 hours or so, without waiting time on the airport18:10
SynQprobably yes18:11
SynQhave you ever considered creating multiple 'default content' for demo's?18:11
@rizenwe have 541 demos running right now18:11
SynQso you can demo WebGUI in particular roles?18:11
@rizenplus there are about 20 other non-critical sites running on that box18:11
@rizenSynQ: not really. mainly because it's enough work just keeping one set of content up to date18:12
SynQ541 demos are being actively used?18:12
@rizenkeep in mind we do 2 releases per week18:12
@rizenyes, we only let them last 24 hours18:12
@rizenso those are all created in the past 24 hours18:12
SynQI mean are people actually putting requests to that all the time/18:13
@rizenoh no i'm sure it's only about 10% of that18:13
SynQah ok18:13
SynQstill 54 though18:13
@rizenthat's actually fairly low18:13
@rizencuz it's a friday18:13
SynQdid I show you http://www.loopsetshop.com before?18:13
@rizenthe day after the release we usually have in the 1000 range18:14
SynQrizen: if you want I can keep demo.webgui.nl up to date and you could redirect european visitors to that demo site18:14
@rizenif you don't mind, then i'll update webgui.org now18:15
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SynQupdate webgui.org with what?18:15
@rizenif you don't mind keeping it up permanently18:15
SynQoh ok18:15
@rizeni'll update webgui.org so to let me people know about it18:15
SynQperhaps you should wait until we release WRE 1.018:15
SynQor 0.9 whatever comes first18:15
@rizenyou'll have to remind me18:16
@rizencuz i'll forget18:16
SynQI most certainly will18:16
@rizenbut yeah, i'd be happy to give people another closer resource for demos18:16
SynQand I'll get in touch with patspam to maintain a .au based demo too18:16
+bartjolKoen can good drammen18:16
@rizenyeah, that would be good too18:16
SynQbartjol: watch it18:16
@rizenthe thing is18:16
@rizenyou really have to keep them up to date18:17
SynQI know18:17
juanupgrading from 7.5.40 to 7.6.11 i had some errors18:17
@rizenlike i said we put out two releases per week...are you planing on also setting up beta versions?18:17
SynQbut as you may recall, it was I who posted bugreports for out of date demo systems in the past18:17
SynQif you'd like18:17
SynQI would18:17
@rizenthat would be awesome18:17
+perlDreamerIf y'all want, I can pester you about upgrading when WRE 1.0 is released18:18
@rizenupgrading what pd?18:18
+perlDreameryou both said that you'd forget to upgrade the your sites when WRE 1.0 comes out18:18
+perlDreameror rather, upgrading webgui.org about the demo site locations18:19
SynQperlDreamer: do pester us18:19
SynQI love it when you do that18:19
+perlDreameroh, the burdens I carry18:19
+perlDreamertest writer18:19
+perlDreamerchief CEO nagger18:19
@rizenworldwide demos will also make the community look much larger18:20
@rizenwhich is good for everybody18:20
SynQit will show the true size of the community you mean18:20
@rizenyou are better with words than i SynQ 18:21
+perlDreamerfrom that Dvorak article yesterday, it seems that we have to be careful not to look like one of those 1-hit wonders18:21
deafferretwink wink nudge nudge18:21
SynQand I am not even a native garbled crap speaker18:21
@rizendeafferret: what are you winking?18:21
+perlDreamer"The current scene is watered down by too many small companies that cannot get any attention except amongst a small cadre of users"18:21
deafferretrizen: I just love spin18:21
@rizenit's not spin18:22
deafferretlife is spin18:22
@rizenwe have users on every continent but antarctica18:22
SynQperlDreamer: where are you reading that?18:22
@rizeni have an interview with him in 1.5 hours18:23
+perlDreamerjust remember, it's spelled perlDreamer. 3 e's, 1 a18:23
SynQI think I agree on that line perlDreamer18:24
+perlDreamerthat's 1 big place where WebGUI stands out18:25
@rizeni'm actually kind of nervous to talk to him18:25
@rizencuz i'm a big fan18:25
@rizeni love how cranky he is18:25
SynQthere are only 5 or so small companies in .nl who are using webgui18:25
@rizenthere are 5 companies developing on webgui you mean18:26
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SynQwho's total turnover is nothing compared with some other systems18:26
@rizenthere are thousands of orgs using webgui in nl18:26
@rizenAlphaMega Hosting alone has more than 14,000 webgui installations18:26
SynQbut that is not webgui18:27
SynQthat is swiftysite18:27
@rizenand you're probably hosting 100 or so18:27
SynQrizen: about 100 yes18:27
@rizenso that's more than 518:27
@rizenthat's what i'm saying18:27
+perlDreamerswiftysite-webgui == a loose pile of code18:27
SynQbut only 4 or 5 actively used18:27
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@rizenhow many government sites are united knowledge doing?18:28
@rizennone of those are actively used?18:28
SynQIf you add the turnover of Oqapi, ProcoliX, UK 18:28
@rizenhow many sites has oqapi built, none of those are actively used?18:28
SynQthen you won't supersede 1 million euro a year18:28
@rizeni'm not saying that it's huge18:28
SynQI'm not saying what we have achieved so far is not impressive18:28
@rizeni'm just saying it's more than you're letting on18:28
SynQbut if you compare that to the turnover made by for example Smartsite18:29
SynQor MMBase18:29
SynQit's peanuts18:29
SynQwhile webgui is so much better then those two systems combined18:29
+perlDreamerso how do we go from peanuts to turnovers?18:29
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@rizencould they be apple turnovers?18:29
@rizenthen i'm in18:29
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@rizenso you're saying that PB is bigger in revenue than ProcoliX, Oqapi, and UK combined?18:30
@rizeni would have never guessed that18:30
SynQin dollars at least18:31
+bartjolthat's webgui revenue alone?18:31
SynQno way18:31
@rizenwell yeah, relative to our local economies18:31
SynQthat's all revenue combined18:31
SynQunless UK has made a huge step forward the last few years18:31
SynQbut I couldn't know that18:32
@rizenwe've been growing our revenue by at least 100% year over year for the past 5 years18:32
@rizen4.5 years ago there was just me on staff18:32
@rizennow there are 17 full timers18:32
SynQI know18:32
SynQreyoice webgui.nl has 15 registred users!18:33
@rizenwell how do we grow it synq?18:33
@rizenpointing people to a .nl demo server would probably be a great start18:33
TrexHey folks. I was wondering if I could pop in and ask a question about the various tables related to assets. Sorry to interrupt your business discussion. :)18:33
@rizenthen at least they'll knw18:34
@rizennp Trex 18:34
@rizengo ahead18:34
+perlDreamerTrex, each asset has at least 3 tables18:34
+perlDreamerasset, assetData, assetKeyword, and then any local tables18:34
SynQrizen: I think the most important thing of all is called WebGUI Lite18:34
+perlDreamerto avoid insanity, always use the API to update tables18:34
+perlDreamer$asset->update() and $asset->get()18:34
TrexMy main question is about the assetIndex table -- what does the revisionDate in that table refer to?18:35
TrexIt looks like it should be the most recent approved version of an asset.18:35
SynQWebGUI on booze if you wish18:35
@rizenit refers to the revisionDate in the assetData table18:35
@rizenwhich is the version number18:35
TrexBut I wanted to check to see if that's how it should always behave.18:35
@rizenof that piece of content18:35
SynQWebGUI that doesn't have 100 features but just 1018:35
SynQand does a great job at that18:35
@rizenSynQ: i'm working to get there, unfortunately it's a lot more work than i thought it would be18:35
@rizenin order to make webgui lite profitable, i need a fully automated hosting system18:36
SynQa WebGUI that is better in something specific then any other system available on the market18:36
SynQI know18:36
SynQand I agree18:36
@rizenautomat is 50% of the way there18:36
TrexShould each asset have only one entry in the assetIndex table?18:36
@rizenjust need to get the credit card stuff integrated, which i hope to have done this summer18:36
@rizenTrex: yes18:36
+bartjolI think each revision has 1 entry18:36
SynQrizen: just ask Oqapi to do the creditcard stuff18:36
+bartjolI'm wrong18:36
@rizenSynQ: oqapi doesn't have the imt18:37
+bartjolI'm talking another table18:37
@rizenbesides, i've already spent all my R&D budget for the first six months of the year18:37
SynQI still have some spare R&D budget 18:37
TrexWhat I'm trying to do is run a query that pulls out data from the assetData table for the most recent version of a series of assets, but without having to run a subquery with max(revisionDate) and the complications that creates...18:38
TrexSo if I join to the assetIndex table, can I use the revisionDate field to get the date of the most recent approved version of the asset, which seems more straight forward than a subquery.18:39
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Trexbartjol: yes to everything I've said so far?18:43
+bartjolto the last statement where tour name was in front of it18:43
TrexOK. Thanks.18:43
+bartjolde second last seesm ro comply with that18:43
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TrexIs the purpose of the assetIndex table (at least in part) to help get around the complexities of the versioning system?18:44
+perlDreamerno, it's for searching18:44
TrexAh...but it seems to have similar needs, like only returning results from the most recent approved version of assets...?18:45
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+perlDreamerassetIndex is like having a locatedb for assets and files.18:46
+bartjolit's time18:46
+perlDreamerthe things may be under version control, but only the latest versions are immediately of interest18:46
TrexThanks folks. This really helps.18:52
TrexYou may return to your plotting to take over the (CMS) world.18:52
+perlDreamerwhen you get your app done, can you come back and show it to us?18:54
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TrexSure. If this works, I'll post something to the wiki. It's nothing special -- just using a MySQL report to pull out recent forum posts -- but I'm hoping it will be a cleaner solution than the ones I've found that rely on variations that use a max(revisionDate) subquery.18:59
TrexIt should be useful for a host of other similar tasks.19:00
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@preactionTrex: you need to use the max(revisionDate) subquery, or some variation thereof. there's no working around the versioning system currently19:02
+perlDreamerbut preaction, for getting most recent posts, where the posts probably autocommit?19:02
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Trexpreaction: if the revisionDate field in the assetIndex table holds the date of the most recent approved version of an asset, doesn't the assetIndex table essentially give you the max(revisionDate) for each asset out there?19:04
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@preactionthere's a revisionDate field in the assetIndex table? i wasn't aware, but probably19:04
TrexWe're running 7.5.38, on the WRE, and there is a revisionDate in the assetIndex table. I'm hoping it's still there in 7.6!19:05
+perlDreamerit is19:05
+perlDreamerand still in 7.7, so far19:05
+perlDreamerTrex, it's probably worth writing some tests for the search subsystem just to double check.19:07
+perlDreamerIt'll also give you some controlled data for testing (and benchmarking) your queries19:07
+perlDreamerit would suck to do the join and find out that it was slower than the subquery19:07
TrexI don't have experience with measuring query efficiency other than when a query is slow enough for me to notice...so if it gets to the point where I'd want to run tests to compare, I may come back for your assistance.19:11
TrexBut in general, it seems that running a max(revisionDate) on the whole assetData table, which would be calculating the max on all assets (even ones you're not interested in) would be a lot of extra calculations...whereas joining a short list of assets to the more limited assetIndex table would be more efficient.19:12
+perlDreamerTrex, I agree, but with perl (and WebGUI), the obvious is not always the fastest.19:13
+perlDreamerMake you a deal, if you're interestd, I can show you how to use Devel::NYTProf to really benchmark it19:14
@preactionthe subquery restricts by assetId, which is indexed and very fast to search. if you want to profile mysql though, NYTProf may not be the best solution (since it's also profiling Perl)19:14
+perlDreamerbut for that, you'll definitely want to write some tests19:14
+perlDreamerpreaction, have you use the DBI profiling tools?19:15
+perlDreamerme neither19:15
TrexThanks, perlDreamer. I may not have anything to test today, but if I do, I'll return and see if you're on...or any other interested folks who may be around.19:16
+perlDreamerYou can almost always find devs who are willing to answer questions in here19:17
+perlDreamerbetween Europe and Australia, we have most time zones covered19:17
+perlDreameroh, and the US19:17
@preactionthat's US19:17
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9755 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): keyword tag cloud for StoryArchive, with tests19:49
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+perlmonkey2Anyone have any idea why on Cent5.2 selinux would be complaining about httpd trying to access /etc/shadow?  I'm not using the WRE, and wonder if this is a some prefork behavior.  20:30
+perlDreamerbecause selinux is a royal pain in the butt20:32
+perlDreamerthat's why20:32
+perlmonkey2why would httpd need to look at /etc/shadow?20:37
+perlmonkey2I mean normally I just authorize whatever selinux is complaining about, but /etc/shadow is kind of a sensitive file.20:37
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TrexAnother quick question -- I seem to recall that you can switch the template applied to an asset via parameters passed via the URL, but I haven't been able to relocate that information. Did I dream this was possible?20:39
+perlDreamerno, it's true20:44
TrexCould you please give me the syntax...or a page where it's explained?20:44
+perlDreamerI'm not sure I remember where it is myself...20:45
TrexI tried a number of searches of the website and skimmed the books I've got, but without success.20:46
+perlDreamerit's not everywhere...20:46
+perlDreamerbut you can do it for the Article20:46
+perlDreamerthe form var is overrideTemplateId20:47
+perlDreamerand you can do it for a style, but it may take two page fetches20:48
+perlDreamerthat sets a scratch variable to override the style20:49
@preactionwhen were these things added?20:51
+perlDreamerthey're very old, preaction20:51
+perlDreamerback from the days  of CVS20:51
+perlDreamerthat's one thing I'm really looking forward to in git, the chance to unify the entire history of WebGUI into 1 place20:52
TrexOnly for style templates? You couldn't, for example, use it within an assetProxy call to modify the template applied to the asset you are proxying?20:53
@preactionno, you can't pass url params in assetproxy. you want a shortcut20:53
+perlDreamerthen, if you're tied to the assetProxy, you could assetProxy the shortcut in20:53
TrexOK, thanks again. That eliminates one tangent I could spend a lot of time on.21:00
TrexWill return later if I have anything fascinating to report.21:01
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@preactionnew perl people working on webgui is nice21:01
* perlDreamer tries not to feel old21:13
+perlDreamer... and fails21:13
SDuensinNot entirely sure, but I think Satan designed CSS.21:14
@preactionSDuensin: i beg to differ. CSS is awesome. the implementations suck21:18
SDuensinThe entire HTML/CSS thing is a disaster.21:19
SDuensinHTML was never intended for presentation.  Should have stopped right there and come up with some kind of decent display language.21:20
@preactionthat's what CSS is21:21
SDuensinYea, but it's bolted right on top HTML.21:21
SDuensinIt's like building boats out of rocks and then gluing balloons to it because they're pretty and make it float.21:22
@preactioni'm still not seeing the problem21:23
@preactionbut then i'm used to CSS21:23
SDuensinCSS is better, but HTML is still the base.  It wasn't intended to determine how content was displayed.  Originally, that was to be up to the browser.  We've just continued to abuse it.21:25
@preactionare you using a Strict doctype? if not, then you're perpetuating the problem21:25
SDuensinI'm strict.21:26
SDuensinRight now, I've got it rendering what/where I want, but the transparency is f'ed up.21:27
@preactionmy only problem with CSS is the theory that standards mean compliance. just because the speed limit is posted doesn't mean everyone interprets it the same way21:27
SDuensinImagine writing a browser though.  Egads.21:28
@preactioni do not envy the people who have to implement the CSS standards, no21:28
* perlDreamer goes running21:40
+perlDreamerlet the food abuse begin21:40
* deafferret eats *everything*21:56
* preaction starves21:56
* SDuensin has Skittles21:57
@preactionwhere did you get those?22:01
deafferret'/win 422:01
* deafferret slaps deafferret 22:01
SDuensinOff my desk.22:01
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Mech422HomeHi all - anyone know if the release is coming out today ?22:11
Mech422Homewre .9 or 1.0 I believe (depending on 64 bit status) ?22:11
@preactiononly one person does, and bugging him will cause delays22:11
Mech422Homepreaction: heh :-)22:12
Mech422Homepreaction: I'm in no hurry - I wouldn't mind the weekend off...22:12
@Haargit won't be today22:12
Mech422HomeAre there any examples of creating roles/groups programmatically (like in an upgrade script) or mass importing users from other systems ?22:14
@preactionsbin/userImport.pl does both iirc22:15
@preactionotherwise WebGUI::Group and WebGUI::User are pretty simple 22:15
Mech422Homepreaction: oh - wasnt aware of that script - thanks - I'll go RTFS :-)22:15
Mech422Homeoh! and Good Morning everyone!  Happy Friday !!  TGIF!! etc etc :-D22:16
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juanupgrade from 7.5.40 to 7.6.11 had some errors22:30
juani tried to fix them, for example with the first error, i deleted the respective column in the table and then ran the upgrade again and the second error appears, is correct to fix it like i did?22:32
@Haargare you certain those were the first errors you had?22:34
@Haargthat was from the first time you tried to run the upgrade?22:34
juanyes, those were22:58
juanyes, the first time appears the error to url column in assetHistory, so i deleted that column in that table22:59
juanthen i ran the upgrade again22:59
juanand then appears related to the duplicate column in Folder table23:00
juanso, i don't know, why those errors appear?23:04
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+perlDreamerI'm back.23:26
+perlDreamerDid anybody save me some skittles?23:26
* Mech422Home hands perlDreamer a vm23:26
Mech422Homewill that do ?23:26
* perlDreamer tries it23:26
+perlDreamervery crunchy23:26
+perlDreamerwhat do I need a vm for?23:26
+perlDreamersorry, my short term memory is full of Story Manager right now23:27
Mech422Homeoh - we talked about setting up a 'buildbot' for wG stuff... so I figured we might as well have a generic vm to play with23:27
Mech422Homeperhaps this weekend, I can start mucking about with that perl buildbot thingy23:28
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metanili've got storageid of a picture, can change the size of the picture.. for preview purpose.. (i'm am using 7.4.17-stable)23:40
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+perlDreamermetanil, if the picture is an Image Asset, then yes23:44
+perlDreamerotherwise, no23:44
+perlDreameryou'll have to reupload a modified version of the picture23:45
metanilhmm .. can't i convert into image asset on the fly?23:45
+perlDreamerI mean, if it was just me, I'd say sure23:47
+perlDreamerbut WebGUI isn't built that way23:47
metanilcurrently, i have got picture uploaded from user profile.. i'm sure its not stored as image asset ( is it?).. 23:48
+perlDreamerit isn't23:48
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metanilperlDreamer: so how i can make current user profile .. so that it the picture will stored as Image asset (not just simple storage)?23:51
metanilright now its simple .. i am just doing .. $u->profileField($field->getId,$field->formProcess($u)) to process uploaded image.23:51
+perlDreamerright, so you'd need a new Form type that stores Image Assets instead of storageIds, plus an editing interface, plus a place to _put_ all the image assets somewhere in the asset tree23:53
+perlDreamerit's non-trivial programming23:53
@preactionheh, that sounds like a project i have for a client23:53
+perlDreamerthat sounds like a project I did for a client23:53
@preactionyeah, i'm taking the project you did and moving it to another client ;)23:54
+perlDreamerit's too bad more people don't release their code23:54
metanilwhy is it still not there in webgui?23:54
@preactionbecause nobody's wanted to pay to put it into webgui, or nobody thought it would be useful23:54
@preactionthe new Account interface makes it possible, and that's very new23:54
* perlDreamer apologizes in advance for any problems that arise, preaction23:54
@preactionperlDreamer: no worries, Frank wrote that thing initially, i edited it a lot, then you put it in the Account system, now i'm moving it to another site. plenty of blame to go around23:55
metanil(i always had a weird requirements in webgui)23:55
@preactionalso, more proof that old code never dies, it just rots away on the vine23:55
+perlDreamermore's the pity23:56
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@preactionyeah, i'd prefer it died a quick death so that something more hardy can take its place23:56
@preactionbotanists would call it pruning23:57
@preactioni would call it mercy-trashing23:57
+perlDreamerkind of like the scene at the end of the class movie, "The Fly"23:59
+perlDreamer"hellllppp mmmmeeeee"23:59
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@preactiondoes bad code know that it is bad?23:59
--- Day changed Sat Mar 07 2009
elninoI don't think so.00:00
@preactionif bad code gets deleted and nobody watches, does it make a sound?00:00
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+perlDreamerYou've been watching I, Robot, too much00:00
@preactionnaughty code! you need a spanking!00:00
elninohey preaction. apparantly, last night was because it was a 64 bit machine. So I'll be recompiling wre, the funny thing was that everything seemed to have been working with the ubuntu32 distribution. It seemed to have created the db, etc, oh well.00:01
elninoso if i"m dealing with 64 bit, will I be recompiling wre everytime?00:01
@preactionuh... good luck. nobodys gotten a 64-bit WRE to compile yet00:01
elnino..everytime I upgrade?00:01
elninoOh great. You're kidding right?00:01
@preactioni don't believe so00:01
@preactioncan't you get 32-bit compatibility libs from the ubuntu reps?00:02
+perlDreamerThere have always been ghosts in the machine. Random segments of code, that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of free will, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness, they will seek out the light? Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, 00:04
elninowell. Like i said (of maybe I didn't), the libncurses was installed. TYPICALY, the linux I use SAYS if it's 64 or 32 bit. there was no indication that these wre 64 bit libraryies.00:04
elninothey looked to me as 32 bit. 00:04
elninothey were a different version than what I had on my debian machine 00:04
elninowould it be a problem with the LD_LIBRARY_PATH pointing the wrong place? does wre look for it somewhere different?00:05
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CIA-46WebGUI: daviddelikat * r9756 /branch/adSkuProject/lib/WebGUI/ (4 files in 3 dirs): some changes00:12
+perlDreamerdaviddelikat, please be careful not to make long, laborious commit messages.  They clog up the channel.00:15
@preactionoh, the adsku project, nice00:16
daviddelikatsorry, just cleaning up my local project...00:23
daviddelikatcan't say as I remember all the stuff I've done since I put it last...00:24
* perlDreamer is just teasing00:24
daviddelikati know00:24
daviddelikatbut if I didn't sy anything back you wouldnb't know if i even saw it00:24
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elninowhen I"m using another's mysql database other than wre.  Adding a site via wreconsole probably won't work, right? because I'm getting the error: "Site could not be created because MySQL appears to be down. at ./wreconsole.pl line 234"00:42
elninoand it's probably checkign wre's mysql00:43
elninoor did I modify wre.conf incorrectly.00:43
+perlDreamersounds good to me00:43
elninothe dbuser and dbpass in the .conf file are my siteuser and sitepassword that I should be granting to the www_example_com database, right?00:49
+perlDreamerand the dsn should point to the other mysql, too00:49
elninoyep. 00:50
+perlDreamerformatting time causes regions of localized low pressure00:55
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elninoand is wremonitor going to try to keep restarting wre's mysql?00:57
elninoumm. wre keeps wanting to go to /data/wre/var/mysqldata/mysql.sock instead of /etc/mysql/mysql.sock.01:05
elninowhere do I change that? I did a grep, and it looks like it was compiled all over, as opposed to configured in a .conf file...01:05
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* elnino wonders if I can create link to /etc01:09
+perlDreamerelnino, there was talk about making the WRE utility scripts work with native distributions, but that work is a long way off01:14
elninowhat I wrote is wrong. forget what I wrote.01:14
* perlDreamer is fazed by elnino's Jedi mind powers01:14
+perlDreamerwhat, did you say something?01:14
elninobut my /data/wre/var/mysqldata/mysql.sock doesn't work.01:14
elninoI have no idea what I'm doing!01:15
elninodid I say that in public?01:15
elninoI dont' like ubuntu01:15
+perlDreameris it really different from Debian?01:18
elninoYES in my opinion01:19
+perlDreamerI only use Fedora, so I have no recent experience with eithe01:19
elninobut I suppose technically it isn't.01:19
elninoI think their related aren't they?01:19
+perlDreamerI thought Ubuntu was Debian with a nice user experience and non-free stuff like MP3 and DVD01:20
elninoit's certainly not obvious to figure out whats installed.01:20
elninoI'm starting over.01:21
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+perlDreamerdo you have to use the native mysql?01:21
+perlDreamerwhat are you doing up so late?01:21
+perlDreamerShouldn't you be drinking with Martin?01:21
+BartJolit's only a quarter past midnight01:22
+BartJolwell, I have to drive a while tomorow01:22
elninoyes.. I'm "sharing" this server with someone... and he decided taht that is what we're donig, though that wasn't the original plan.  maybe that's why I'm cranky. =)01:22
+BartJolwith a passenger01:22
elninoeverything is stopped.01:22
elninoexcept mysql01:23
elninowhich is working fine.01:23
+BartJolkill -9 *?01:23
elninono I dont' want to kill it, wre's going to use navtive mysql01:24
+BartJolsorry, I'm just dropping in01:24
+perlDreamerHas anyone heard from bernd in the last few days?01:25
elninothat's ok.01:25
+BartJolbut I like bold statements01:25
+BartJolperlDreamer: no01:25
+BartJolunfortunately not01:26
elninook. with everything wre' related stopped. I'm just want to login to mysql to seee my databases. but it's trying to use /data/wre/var/mysqldata/mysql.sock. but according to 01:28
elnino/etc/mysql/my.cnf, it should be using  /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock.  why?01:29
elninoso back to my question. why when trying to access my database locally, it is trying to use a different .sock file than is specified in the /my.cnf file? did wre modify something when it was installed?01:40
+BartJoleeeh , sorrry I'm into the wre too much right now01:41
+BartJolit might be specified somewhere01:42
+BartJoldunno where exactly01:42
elninoI greped, it's all in wre, but nothing of wre is running.01:42
elninoI restarted the navtive mysql and it still insists on using th ewrong sock. something got over ridden somewhere.01:43
+BartJolsorry elnino, we're not ignoring you01:55
elninothat's ok. it's really not anything that is webgui specific. so I don't really expect an answer.01:56
+BartJolwell wre expects a certain my.cnf file01:58
+BartJolwhich has a specific .sock01:59
+BartJolbut it is the right mysqld01:59
+BartJolmine is /data/wre/var/mysqldata/mysql.sock02:00
elninoI saw all those in the data/wre/prereqs/share/mysql/, but I didn't think me using native mysql would try to use wre's cnf files.02:00
elninoroot@media:/data/wre/sbin# whereis mysql02:01
+BartJolmaybe if yoy did setenviroment02:01
elninomysql: /usr/bin/mysql /etc/mysql /usr/share/mysql /usr/share/man/man1/mysql.1.gz02:01
elninoI did... doh.02:01
elninogrr..... Thanks!!!02:01
+BartJolwhich mysql :)02:02
elninooh... it's trying to use wre's mysql.  =(  Thanks again!02:03
elninoboy, I need a slap in the face, don't I?02:04
* perlDreamer recommends a batch of breakfast cookies02:05
+BartJolsometimes you need a view from outside02:05
+perlDreameri can't send you the pumpkin cinnamon role recipe until you try those02:05
+BartJolraw fish cookies!02:05
elninoI do. I'm leting my frustration cloud my brain.02:05
* perlDreamer takes a break. Back in 10.02:05
+BartJolI don't, I let alcohol and drugs cloud my brain :)02:06
elninothe  "admin" of this server said "everything is working" and left me without telling me what they did top make mysql and wre "work". only to find out nothing was working. 02:06
+BartJolyou have to give them a course ps aux02:07
elninoI do!! and I can!02:08
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+BartJolglad I came online02:10
elninoAll of you are always so helpful! (and make me laugh at the end of the day) Thank yoU!02:10
+BartJolit really is my pleasure02:11
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+BartJoland of other people02:12
+BartJoljust on their behalf02:13
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elninook. so now that mysql is working, to recap, I've installed wre, created a site "manually" (db and conf files are in place)02:14
elninowhen I want to start wre... I have to do setenvironment.sh02:14
elninoto do --start web and --start spectre.02:14
elninoand then when I go to the website. 02:15
elninoand of cource, it won't work, because I"m using the wrong mysql.02:15
elninoso I do have to modify all of wre's my.cnf files. don't I?02:15
+BartJolisn't it only 1?02:15
elninoI grepped last time and found all sorts.. not really knowing which one to use. Maby I should use 'find'  =)02:16
+BartJolI don't know mysql well enough, to knowe how it handles multiple daemons02:18
elninois this working?02:18
+BartJolfind is a working commando ;)02:19
elninowho needs alcohol?02:19
+BartJollocate uses too much cahe stuff02:19
elninohey are in /data/wre/prereqs/share/mysql 02:19
elninoI was starting the chat with a / and it wouldn't print.. hence the "is this working" sorry.  02:20
+BartJoldon't bother02:20
+BartJolbut accepted02:20
+BartJolthinking now...02:21
+BartJolsorry can yoy give a recap elnino?02:22
elninohmmm. prereqs/share/mysql/mysql.server defines where the my.cnf is.02:22
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9757 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (4 files in 4 dirs): 02:23
CIA-46WebGUI: Formatted duration template variable and method, with tests.02:23
CIA-46WebGUI: Start writing Story help.02:23
elninoI have to run a setenvironment to start spectre and 'web' but then the path gets screwed up to use the locally installed mysql.02:23
+BartJolwell, there is a mention of removing aother my.cnf files in the installation manual02:24
+BartJolnot sure for what reason02:25
+BartJolbut prolly it's needed02:25
elninoI figured it was because wre was goign to install another instance of mysql and the two would conflict... hmm. 02:26
elninoIhave the admin book, is that the book you are refering to?02:26
+BartJolwell, search some mysql fora on running different daemons02:26
elninowhat page? or are you reading the wiki?02:26
+BartJolor on the site02:26
+BartJol4. If you have a MySQL config file at /etc/my.cnf please remove or rename it so that it doesn't interfere with the WRE MySQL.02:28
+BartJol    mv /etc/my.cnf /etc/my.cnf.old02:28
elninoyep, right. 02:29
elninowre's already installed and /usr/bin/mysql is running.02:29
elninoand /etc/my.cnf is being used by /usr/bin/mysql...02:29
elninoI thin I'm past that point.02:30
elninoI wonder if there is a way to modify setenvironment, so that mysql is looked for in one path, but the rest searches another path. OR i just may make my "admin" let me use wre's like we ORIGINALLy planned... 02:31
elninogonig to make supper. I'm going to think more....02:31
+BartJolI will be to bed02:32
elninovi is prefered.02:32
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+BartJolas long it's not emacs:)02:32
elninoI meant, "if there is a way to say if you're looking for mysql, only look here, but for the rest of your binaries look here:"02:33
elninono emacs  eek.02:33
+BartJolsorry, bad joke02:33
+BartJolI don't now02:33
elninoyep, I was slow, which didn't help.02:33
+BartJolyou cab grep for it02:33
elninolol - I'm sure I can.02:34
+BartJolbut I've really gotta sleep02:34
elninoI'm sure there is some scripting magic I can do...02:34
elninohave a good night!!  supper is waiting.02:34
elninothanks again.02:34
+BartJolbon appetit02:34
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-!- SDuensin_ is now known as SDuensin02:41
+perlDreamerhow do we know you're the _real_ SDuensin?02:41
SDuensinShould I whine about JSON in the database?02:42
+perlDreamerthat's pretty convincing02:42
+perlDreamerTell me about Caramel Macchiato.02:42
+perlDreamerMocha Latte, Frappucino02:43
+perlDreamerwhatever that thing was you were talking about02:43
* SDuensin has black coffee here.02:43
SDuensinDude, it's SO DAMN COOL!02:43
+perlDreameryeah, that's it02:43
SDuensinI really wish I had time to mess with it.02:43
SDuensinThe crazies implemented the OOP features of Objective C in Javascript and call it Objective J.  Adds a serious amount of power to JS...02:44
SDuensinThen they used that to implement Cappuccino, which is basically Apple's Cocoa for a browser.02:44
+perlDreamerWhat is Cocoa?02:45
SDuensinCocoa is Apple's UI toolkit thingie.02:45
SDuensinBasically, Mac developers (or suitable impostors like us) can write code like they're used to and it runs in a browser.02:46
SDuensinNo DOM issues, no weird CSS issues, no HTML nonsense.  Just objects and widgets and code like God intended.02:46
+perlDreamersounds cool02:46
SDuensinLook at www.280slides.com - it's their first project using it.02:47
+perlDreamerand this is written in Objective J?  It must be huge!02:49
+perlDreamerit's like a piece of google docs02:49
SDuensinBut looks like a Mac app.  :-)02:49
+perlDreamernot having a Mac, I'll trust you on that02:49
SDuensinObjJ is a superset of JS and can be "compiled" into optimized JS for deployment.02:49
SDuensinOr while debugging, you can run the ObjJ natively in the browser to make things simple.02:50
SDuensinTonight is a monumental occasion.02:59
+perlDreamerwhat is it?02:59
SDuensinAfter foolishly straying away from WebGUI at the end of the 5.x series, I am now 100% WEBGUI AGAIN!02:59
SDuensinI just relaunched my last site.  Goodbye, Drupal!03:00
+perlDreamerWelcome back to the fold, SDuensin.03:00
+perlDreamereven if there is JSON in db03:00
+perlDreamerand variants are hard03:00
SDuensinWebGUI:  http://www.smithton.net     Drupal:  http://old.smithton.net03:00
SDuensinNotice how awful ugly one of them is.  :-)03:01
+perlDreameryou live in smithton?03:01
+perlDreamerDid you get turned off from WebGUI during the 6.x upgrade set?03:03
SDuensinI don't remember exactly what it was, but 6.x *seemed* more trouble than it was worth.  Oops.03:05
* SDuensin didn't have nearly as much online back then. Did a lot in ASP since that's what he used at work.03:06
+perlDreamerhow many sites did you migrate back to WebGUI?03:07
SDuensinAround four.  While adding a number of new ones.03:10
+perlDreamerdid you custom convert these with code from Drupal, or did you do it by hand?03:11
SDuensinJust rebuilt it from scratch.03:11
SDuensinI considered writing something to move all the content over, but after looking at the existing content, decided it wasn't that big a loss.  :-)03:13
+perlDreamerit would be interesting to see how easy it is to move content over from Drupal to WebGUI03:15
SDuensinDrupal isn't anywhere near as advanced.  Getting data out would be simple.03:16
SDuensinI've seen people do nice things with Drupal, but I can't for the life of me figure it out.03:21
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9758 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/ (Help/Asset_Story.pm i18n/English/Asset_Story.pm): More Story template variable help03:33
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9759 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Add the new timeUpdated variable to the template, along with i18n phrase support.03:33
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elninoHaarg - I'm wondering if you have any ideas... you may have seen all my back and forths in this chat, but I"ll recap...03:57
elninoI'm using mysql that is already installed on the server.03:57
elninobut in order to start up webgui, I have to run a setenvironment to start spectre and 'web' but then the path gets screwed when trying to find the locally installed mysql.03:58
elninoIt keeps trying to use wre's .sock file.03:59
elninoand wre's mysql03:59
SDuensinHi elnino 04:00
elninoHi SDuensin!04:00
elninoI guess welcome back is in order?04:00
elninodrupal huh?  I used joomla - hate, just hate it... ick04:01
SDuensinI had a Joomla site, too.  It's LONG GONE.04:01
+perlDreamerSDuensin, just how many other CMS'es have you had dalliances with?04:01
elninoI'm trying to convert all mine.04:01
SDuensinA lot.  Most don't make it into production.04:01
+perlDreamerelnino, have you considered making the mysql in the wre to be non-executable?04:09
elninono. but that is really clever idea!04:09
SDuensinperlDreamer - how can I safely dump the cached data for a site programmatically?04:09
* SDuensin is reading code.04:09
+perlDreamerdump cached data?04:10
+perlDreamerlike get rid of, or make a backup?04:10
+perlDreameror something else?04:10
SDuensinNuke it.04:10
+perlDreamerfile cache, or database cache?04:10
SDuensinWhen I create a web site for a user with my new spiffy macro, I send them back to the page they came from.  That page thinks they still need to create a site.04:10
+perlDreamerthat should be easier04:11
+perlDreamerset the cache time on that page, and on all of its assets to be small or nil04:11
SDuensinOh.  That IS easy.  :-)04:11
SDuensinUh, where is that?04:13
+perlDreamerOn the Page, under Display04:13
+perlDreamerand similarly with the Snippet04:13
SDuensinIn the page layout, or assets in it?04:13
+perlDreameractually, let me check to make sure I'm right04:14
SDuensinAh, I see it in the asset.  Not in the layout.04:14
SDuensinI was able to set the two assets and one snippit to 1 second.04:15
+perlDreamerdid that fix the problem?04:16
elninoperlDreamer  that may have worked - but can't tell, but once I setenvironment wre also tries to use /data/wre/var/mysqldata/mysql.sock maybe I"ll rename that...04:16
SDuensinOh boy.  I think I found a big problem.04:16
SDuensinANYBODY can edit a navigation!04:16
+perlDreamershow me a page, SD04:17
SDuensinI'm logged on as "test" who only has rights to turn on admin.04:17
+perlDreamerand what are the Privileges on the Navigation?04:17
SDuensinI don't see any.  Logging in as me.04:17
SDuensinWhew.  Ok.  Cancel panic.04:18
+perlDreamerIt may display an edit control, but that doesn't guarantee that test can edit it04:18
SDuensinNo, I could edit.  I fixed it.04:19
* perlDreamer heads to dinner04:21
* SDuensin waves04:22
SDuensin(Cache fixed it, BTW.  Thanks!)04:22
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elninois the dbuser and dbpassword in the /data/webgui/etc/*.conf encrypted or plain text?04:42
elninoI went with "blank" and webgui created them for me.. and so I can't tell.04:43
elninothat's what I thought. good.04:43
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elninopreaction/perlDreamer - wre's mysql is WORKING!05:47
+perlDreamerhow did you do it?06:10
elninotell me about it...  He installed "something" - not sure what yet - but after he did that, we didn't bother to try wre's mysql he wanted to just go with the locally insalled one. so after bugging you all, I deided to ignore he's wishes and tried to use wre's mysql. but I he never told me what file I needed to modify to get "his" site to use wre's mysql.. but he said it would be easy.06:15
elninoI think what it boiled down to is that I would have needed to modify all of wre's files to use the locallay installed mysql's sock file, and I reallydidnt' want to modify the base code. and I'm not quite sure that would have worked.  I actually did find wre's my.cnf and tried to define teh .sock filein there, and it made no difference.06:15
elninoso I gave him instaructions to take down the local mysql, start up wre properly and to get HIS site working..  =)06:16
elninohopefully that makes sense. It would be nice if the .sock file was a bit more localized in the wre's code, I think I was "that" close.06:18
+perlDreamerthat'll fix his little red wagon06:18
+perlDreamerIf you can, try to ask SynQ next week06:18
+perlDreamerearly in the morning, since he's on Europe time06:18
+perlDreamerhe's quite familiar with WRE, like Haarg and rizen are06:18
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elnino'k  - I'm goign to bed now. I didn't make much money on this 'project' grr.  I'm glad I didn't have to compile anything. But I've proven that the  ubunto 32-bit wre actually works on 64-bit.06:21
+perlDreamergood to know06:21
+perlDreamergrab some sleep.  Don't forget that you're sleeping for 2 now.06:21
elninoI know.. hubby isn't too happy with me up so late.06:22
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9760 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Keyword.pm: POD fix about the default sort order of returned assets.06:29
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9761 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Search form for StoryArchive view form.06:29
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+perlDreameranybody awake?08:52
+perlDreamerguess not08:54
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SynQI see this: It would be nice if the .sock file was a bit more localized in the wre's code, I think I was "that" close.12:19
SynQI could define the default location of .sock in wre's my.cnf so that it would be easier to find where to change it12:19
SynQbut that is all there is to it actually12:20
SynQI think a symlink from the 'system' location of the sock to the wre sock should work too12:20
SynQbut they are all dirty hacks12:20
SynQyou should just use IP and a port to connect to mysql12:20
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elnino_SynQ - I tried defining the sock location in wre's my.cnf file, but it didn't work.17:16
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9762 /translations/German/German/ (7 files): Update from translation server17:33
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9763 /translations/German/German/Account_Inbox.pm: Update from translation server17:33
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9764 /translations/German/German/ (WebGUI.pm Account_User.pm): Update from translation server17:33
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--- Log opened Sat Mar 07 20:20:24 2009
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9766 /translations/German/German/ (WebGUI.pm Account_Friends.pm): Update from translation server21:00
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9767 /translations/German/German/WebGUI.pm: Update from translation server21:00
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9768 /translations/Russian/ (33 files in 2 dirs): Update from translation server21:39
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9769 /translations/German/German/ (4 files): Update from translation server22:09
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--- Day changed Sun Mar 08 2009
+perlDreamerpreaction: any suggestions on where to buy good office furniture?00:00
+perlDreamerSauder's Orchard Hill computer desk with hutch looks nice01:01
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9770 /translations/Russian/Russian/ (17 files): Update from translation server03:19
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--- Log opened Sun Mar 08 17:10:54 2009
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--- Log opened Mon Mar 09 09:56:47 2009
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CIA-46WebGUI: yung * r9774 /WebGUI/ (7 files in 5 dirs): changed screenshots in Matrix Listing view to popup13:25
CIA-46WebGUI: yung * r9775 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/ (7 files in 5 dirs): changed screenshots in Matrix Listing view to popup13:25
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CIA-46WebGUI: paul * r9776 /WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/SQL.pm: Documentation bug in buildArrayRefOfHashRefs17:06
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+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: have you ever looked at the Survey-Rfe branch?18:09
+perlDreameruh, no18:10
+perlDreamerlet me check18:10
+perlmonkey2no need to look18:10
+perlmonkey2it is just a branch to implement RFE's on the Survey.18:10
+perlDreamerI know18:10
+perlDreamerI have a checkout of it18:10
+perlDreamerI was trying to remember in which branch I built all those tests18:11
+perlDreamerI think it was HEAD18:11
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juanDuring a upgrade from 7.5.40 to 7.6, i have the next errors18:19
juanreally i don't know what happened? how can i fix them?18:20
@Haargthat should have only happened if you ran the upgrade and it failed prior to that18:30
@Haargwas that from your first run up the upgrade?18:30
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juanHaarg, the site was in 7.5.34, i upgrade from it to 7.5.40 without problems18:38
@Haargwhat was your exact upgrade path?  including any false steps you took.18:38
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juani downloaded the package, then i extracted then in a temporal location, then i read the gotcha, then a put the files in the specific location, restarted apache, executed testEnvironment.pl and then the upgrade.pl18:42
juanfinally i restarted apache18:43
juani have upgraded some sites to 7.6 and this is the first time that i have those errors18:44
@Haargone case that can happen is that if you extract a newer version first, then extract an older version over it18:44
@Haargthe upgrade script will have problems18:45
@Haargyou might try going into the database and doing 'select * from webguiVersion'18:48
@Haargand putting it on pastebin18:48
juangive me a minute18:49
+perlmonkey2How do you create a single pkg merge when you have several templates you need to put into the upgrade path?18:49
@Haargwhy not have multiple packages?18:50
@Haarglooks like your upgrade to 7.5.40 didn't work correctly18:58
juanactually the site is in 7.5.3419:00
@Haargso if you try to upgrade to 7.5.40, then try to upgrade to 7.6.x, it fails?19:00
juani upgrade to 7.5.40 without problems19:01
juanthe problems are from 7.5.40 to 7.619:02
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@Haargcan you try a 'describe assetHistory' on your current db?19:06
juanthe table has 4 fields (assetId,userId,dateStamp,actionTaken)19:08
@Haargwhich is correct for that version19:10
@Haargso you performed the 7.5.40 and 7.6.x upgrades as distinct steps?19:10
@Haargand which 7.6 version were you trying to go to?19:11
juanin 7.5.40 that table could have the same estructure19:12
juani am going to upgrade to 7.5.40 and then will check the database for that table before upgrading to 7.619:13
@Haargbe sure to watch the upgrade process closely for errors19:14
+perlDreamerHaarg, the assetHistory thing is in there twice19:15
+perlDreamerbut they're on different paths19:15
--- Log opened Mon Mar 09 19:59:24 2009
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9779 /translations/Russian/Russian/ (13 files): Update from translation server20:12
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+perlDreamerHaarg, I needed to make two small changes to Keyword for the StoryManager.20:46
+perlDreamerfor reference rev 9780 in the StoryManager branch20:46
+perlDreamerchange 1: allow number of rows per page to be set for pagination20:46
+perlDreamerchange 2: add lineage to the sort when getMatchingAssets20:46
+perlDreamer#2 makes testing much easier20:46
+perlDreamersince assets are always returned in a predictable order20:47
* perlDreamer goes running20:47
@Haargok, that doesn't impact the changes i have pending20:47
* perlDreamer is back, cuz his partner is late20:50
+perlDreamerHaarg: phew.20:51
@Haargaside from the quotes -> comma change20:52
@Haargi'm adding a method for finding keywords20:52
@Haargby lineage and/or by searching20:52
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9780 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Keyword.pm: 20:54
CIA-46WebGUI: Add a new option for getMatchingAssets to set the number of rows20:54
CIA-46WebGUI: per page.20:54
CIA-46WebGUI: Add another sort clause to make testing easier.20:54
* perlDreamer kicks himself for not understanding WebGUI version control, yet again, and goes running.20:56
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* deafferret kicks himself for running out of bacon, and eats a gallon of hummus21:14
SDuensinWhoa!  I might have the strongest WebGUI holdout I've run into so far ready to convert.  :-)21:41
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+perlDreamerSDuensin, the heathen and the infidel must both be converted!22:45
SDuensinI got him a demo site on my server and he's reading the Primer.22:47
ckotili know a guy who runs the chicago drupal group. ive been trying to convert him for years22:47
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+perlDreamerbacon + hummus is good, deafferret23:05
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SynQ2hi there23:09
+perlDreamerSynQ2: howdy :)23:11
+MrHairgreasehi synq23:11
elninoHey SynQ2 - there are two of you...23:12
+MrHairgreasehaarg which YAML lib do I want for wgd?23:12
@Haargyeah, that's the best one23:12
+MrHairgreasethought so23:12
+MrHairgreasesince it's on top of the list 23:12
@Haargwill be nice once the next version of YAML.pm comes out23:12
+perlDreameris there a due date for that?23:13
@Haargit will work similar to how JSON.pm works now, automatically chosing the perl or xs version based on what is available23:13
@Haargnot that i know23:13
+MrHairgreaseshouldn't META.yml refelct the YAML requirement btw?23:13
@Haargalthough i don't think there's a good way to have alternate dependancies23:14
+MrHairgreaseso how does the edit function work?23:15
+perlDreamerShould WebGUI::Keyword let us pick the form variable used in the tag cloud?23:15
+perlDreamerwgd edit Template <--- make a new template23:16
+perlDreamerwgd edit assetUrl <--- edit the asset by URL23:16
+MrHairgreasethe changes I made don't seem to be saved to the db23:16
+perlDreamerwgd edit assetId <---- edit by id23:16
+MrHairgreasepd: yeah, tried that23:16
+MrHairgreaseoh wait23:16
+MrHairgreaseit's in an autotag23:16
+MrHairgreasegotta go now23:17
@Haargit didn't get committed?23:17
@Haargit should use a named tag and commit it for you23:18
@HaargperlDreamer, i added a function to the keyword module to allow you to specify a callback for generating the urls on the cloud23:18
@Haargi should hopefully have that committed in the next day or so23:18
+perlDreamerHaarg, that's perfect23:19
+cap10morganWhy is there a delay between spectre.pl --status reporting all zeroes and workflow instances being cleared out of the database (so singletons can run again, for example)? Is that normal?23:20
* perlDreamer wonders if MrHairgrease has autocommit turned on23:20
@Haargyeah, i haven't tested with autocommit so that could interfere23:20
@preactioncap10morgan: is spectre connecting to the site/23:20
@Haargi should probably check that23:20
+cap10morganpreaction: connectivity tests pass23:21
@Haargsince i need to export pages for each keyword for my project, there are two url forms i'm using23:21
@Haargi figured a callback was the best way to handle that23:21
+MrHairgreaseno autocommit on this site indeed23:21
@Haargwith autocommit off it should work properly23:21
@preactioncap10morgan: dunno then23:21
+cap10morganpreaction: so that's not normal behavior?23:22
@preactioni don't know23:22
+cap10morganok, gotcha23:22
+perlDreamerit will.  It will request the commit, which uses the default commit method.23:22
+perlDreamerso no autocommit unless it is turned on23:22
@Haargi haven't tested with all the possibilitied for autocommit, but i would expect it would work with all of them23:22
+perlDreamerHaarg, it is doing the right thing, but it is not autocommitting23:23
@Haargif it shows as an autotag23:23
@Haargthat leads me to believe it is not being named properly23:24
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9781 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (4 files in 4 dirs): 23:24
CIA-46WebGUI: Complete rework of Story autocommit.23:24
CIA-46WebGUI: Tests for status of Stories that have been autocommitted.23:24
CIA-46WebGUI: Keyword search interface with UI and tests.23:24
+cap10morganIf I restart spectre, then they clear out pretty quickly.23:24
@Haargwhich means the version tag creation wgd does didn't work properly23:24
+MrHairgreasehaarg i'm using the bazaar version, not that on github23:25
+MrHairgreasemaybe there's a discrepancy23:25
@Haargi would recommend the github version23:26
+MrHairgreasejust to prevent wild goose chases23:26
@Haargi should probably push out 0.323:26
+MrHairgreasei'll check it out  wednesday23:26
+MrHairgreasestill, a cool app23:26
+perlDreamerHaarg, I just tested with Commit Comments On, Multiple version tags per user, and Commit with Approval.  It worked fine.23:27
+MrHairgreasemust be something at my devbox then23:29
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@Haargthe single version tag per user or single tag per site case is probably something that could be handled better23:30
* perlDreamer is not a big fan of the new VersionTag modes.23:30
+perlDreamerI know they're great for SwiftySite23:31
+perlDreamerbut they're untested23:31
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+perlDreamergood read: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/03/07/how-to-successfully-compete-with-open-source-software/23:43
+perlDreamer"OSS concentrates on the software, not the problems the software can solve"23:43
@preactionuh... sounds like poorly-managed software to me23:47
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--- Day changed Tue Mar 10 2009
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9782 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/StoryArchive.pm: Fix searching by keyword via the form.00:01
+perlDreamerone of these days I'm going to remember that getLineage != get('lineage')00:23
+perlDreamerbut apparently not today :(00:24
@Haargi haven't screwed that up before, similar ones have annoyed me00:25
@Haarglike getUrl, or form->getName00:25
+perlDreamerbut those work and do what you think they should do00:26
@HaarggetUrl doesn't to ->get('url')00:27
@Haargand getName vs get('name') is the form type name vs the form element name attribute00:29
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+perlDreamerno, you're right.  getUrl does more than get('url')00:37
+perlDreamerand Form->getName should be something more like getFormName, so getName would to do the right thing00:37
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+perlDreamerit would appear that the update method does not update the search index01:15
+perlDreamerthat is only updated when addRevision is called01:16
@Haargisn't it only on commit?01:16
+perlDreameryou're right.  I saw it in AssetVersioning and assumed is was addRev01:17
@Haargsomething i'm going to working on after my current project01:17
@Haargis modifying update to use the form api01:17
@Haarghopefully that doesn't break everything01:18
+perlDreamerwhat's the advantage in that?01:18
@Haargcurrently update uses the default value from definition for when there is no value01:18
@Haargbut sometimes that default value is meant to be consumed by the forms api01:19
@Haarglike if it is an array01:19
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@Haargso in that case, it would stick a busted value in the database01:19
@Haargthis is related the the template parser class problem that wgd edit has01:20
+perlDreamerlike the thing we saw with making a template from scratch01:20
@Haargalso, it would make some things more sensible01:21
+perlDreamerWhat do you think about update calling indexContent?01:21
@Haargcurrently, there are at least two places (possibly three) that handle picking the default value for when the value isn't specified01:21
@Haargi think it's a bad idea01:22
@Haargindexing is slow01:22
+perlDreamerI'm almost positive I've seen asset code that calls update after commit01:22
+perlDreameror addRev, which can call autocommit01:22
@Haargpossibly, but if it doesn't reindex in that case it is the asset's fault01:23
@HaargaddRevision never auto commits directly01:23
@Haargif you have a check list form element with some checked by default, it's not possible to have them all unchecked01:23
@Haargbecause even though the form control provides for that01:23
@Haargupdate sees the empty value and stuffs the default in01:24
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9783 /branch/WebGUI_Story/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Search interface, in addition to the default view and the keywords view.01:43
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9784 /WebGUI/docs/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix a typo in the Default gallery view template01:43
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9785 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/docs/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Backporting default gallery album view template fix.01:43
CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9786 /branch/WebGUI_7.6/docs/changelog/7.x.x.txt: More bug docs for the template.01:43
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CIA-46WebGUI: colin * r9787 /branch/WebGUI_Story/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Story.pm: 02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: The URL for the story was changing when the story was edited. The initial02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: URL was based on the current asset, which is the Archive instead of the Folder.02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: (Archive hands off to Folder in addChild).02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: On following edits, no URL was passed, so one was built from the parent, which02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: is the Folder.02:40
CIA-46WebGUI: Fix this by passing in the existing URL as an hidden form param.02:40
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CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9788 /translations/German/German/Asset_Search.pm: Update from translation server12:43
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9789 /translations/German/German/ (Asset_SQLReport.pm Asset_Thingy.pm): Update from translation server12:43
CIA-46WebGUI: translation * r9790 /translations/Dutch/ (Dutch/Account_Inbox.pm Dutch.pm): Update from translation server12:43
+BartJolI didn't do any translations12:45
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+BartJolpreaction is there a reason that 7.6.14 isn't announced?13:04
+BartJolHaarg: maybe you're the more appropiate person to ask that13:08
+BartJolalthough prolly sleeping13:08
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+BartJolplainhao: you're pb right, why isn't 7.6.14 announced?13:38
* plainhao has no idea, d'oh.13:38
+BartJolwell, the upgrading went smooth13:39
* plainhao is glad of that.13:40
+BartJolwell, I'll ask graham when he's awake13:40
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+BartJolHaarg: is there a specific reason 7.6.14 isn't announced?16:30
+BartJoland goodmorning16:30
@Haargi'm not sure how that got missed16:31
+BartJolok, just wondering, did the upgrade anyway16:31
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CIA-46wgdev: Graham Knop master * r91c7a82 / lib/WGDev/Command/Base.pm : adding API docs for WGDev::Command::Base - http://bit.ly/YaHeo18:39
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carograydoes anyone know if there is a limit to the size file we can upload to a PlainBlack server? We have a 29MB PDF that we would like to make available for people to download18:52
+perlDreamercarogray, that would be best asked on PlainBlack's support forum18:52
carograyk - will do18:54
+perlmonkey2At 9600 baud, you need to check the buffer 15 times a second with a 64 byte buffer?19:02
+perlDreamerperlmonkey2: should be faster than that, even19:03
+perlDreamer9600/64 > 1519:03
+perlDreamerunless I'm missing a factor of 8 in the baud to bytes conversion rate19:04
+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: 9600 baud is about 1000 bytes per second depending on your bit switch settings.19:04
+perlmonkey2parity, data lenghts and stop bit.19:05
+perlDreamerI've only ever done 7N119:05
+perlmonkey28N1 is what my libs default to and seemed good enough to me :P19:06
+perlmonkey2and by good enough, I mean, I have no idea about the pros and cons of changing them :P19:06
+perlmonkey2but 7N1 would be faster, so you were right.19:06
+perlmonkey2but the buffer is in bytes, and the 9600 is in bauds.19:07
+perlmonkey2wait, 7n1 would be 7 bit bytes.  That would be very annoying.19:08
+perlDreamerisn't sending ASCII wonderful?19:09
+perlmonkey2ah, I see your point.19:10
+perlmonkey2I was thinking of sending floats and longs and trying to reconstitute them.19:10
+perlDreamerno, 8N1 would be better for that.  Much less effort on the receiver, and well worth the 12.5% decrease in throughput19:11
+perlmonkey212.5%....well I could have lived with 12.4%, but that is just over the top :P19:12
+perlmonkey2perlDreamer: just found this....prepare for your world to be rocked: http://www.pachube.com/19:20
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+perlDreamerThis is totally, SkyNet, dude.19:22
+perlDreamerwork of the devil19:22
SDuensinAnyone want to kill one of my customers?19:38
+perlDreamerhave SkyNet do it19:38
+perlDreamerit has access to your customer's location and electricity usage19:39
SDuensinOk, I have a question for all you perl* named people.19:39
SDuensinI modified the Shelf Wobject to make some minor changes...19:40
SDuensinNow I need to add the ability to sort the products it finds...19:41
SDuensinI'm not using the Summary field of the product, so I was going to just put some numeric value in that field...19:41
SDuensinNow how do I actually sort the $keywordBasedAssetIds before feeding them to the template?19:42
SDuensinEr, sorting by the value in the summary field, that is.19:42
* perlDreamer recommends building a table in the template, and then using YUI DataTable in the progressive enhancement mode.19:43
+perlDreamerSDuensin, the assetIds are returned in order of creation date from WebGUI::Keyword19:43
+perlmonkey2persistance is an issue when you do it on the client side though.19:43
+perlDreamerany sorting beyond that has to be done after the fact, by hand19:43
+perlDreamerSDuensin, do you expect to have enough products to paginate?19:44
SDuensinperlDreamer - Crazy customer doesn't care what order they come back in.  She wants them in random, yet specific, order according to some algorithm only she apparently knows.19:44
SDuensinWe paginate like mad.19:44
+perlDreamerin that case, you're stuck with manual sorting of assets, before they're passed down to the template19:45
SDuensinYep.  I hate this woman.19:45
+perlDreameris this the jewelry store shop?19:46
+perlmonkey2I've looked into the bowls of the paginator and it strikes fear into my heart.  19:47
SDuensinIs the summary field used in the product?  Before I go stomping on it?19:48
+perlDreamerit's just available as data to the templates19:50
+perlDreamerit's included in the search index19:50
SDuensinOK, good.19:50
+perlDreamerso you really can't stomp on it19:51
SDuensinOh, I bet I could.  :-P19:52
* perlDreamer will not doubt SDuensin's stomping ability in the future ;)19:53
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+perlDreamerI hate the private bug feature in the Bug tracker.20:19
+perlDreamerI'll give any PB staffer 5K karma if you fix the front page bug report to hide private bugs20:20
SDuensinBut what if a porn site finds a bug?  :-P20:20
+perlDreamerit doesn't have to be private20:20
+perlDreamerif it's private, then only staff can read (and therefore fix) the bug20:21
@Haargon this perlDreamer? http://www.webgui.org/participate20:21
@Haargshould be fixed20:30
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+perlDreamerthanks, Haarg20:32
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+perlDreamerdoes git pull remote pull all branches from remote, or just the current one?20:39
deafferretgit is full repo on every client20:46
deafferretso I hear. I don't use git yet20:46
@Haargi believe it pulls all the branches by default, but it depends on how it is configured20:46
deafferretthat's the first time I've heard that rumor.  :)20:47
* deafferret files that rumor in $brain20:47
@Haargyou don't have to have the full repo on every client, but you usually do because there's little reason not to20:47
+perlDreamerI tried just git pull remote, and it gave me a spiel about merging.20:49
+perlDreamerI either need more client side config, or I just avoid a massive branch merge :)20:49
@Haarggit pull is git fetch + git merge20:49
@Haargyou can also tell it to do a rebase instead20:50
@Haargif that is more applicable20:50
@Haargi really need to get my it repo rebuilt tonight21:01
@Haargi can't use the 7.6 branch with it until i do21:01
+perlDreamerwill PB's webgui repo contain all the history, all the way back to sourceforge and cvs?21:03
+perlDreamer(git repo, that is)21:03
@Haargand the tarballs from before it was in cvs21:04
+perlDreamerthat is old21:04
+perlDreamerhow did you manage that?21:04
@Haargcvs only goes back to 3.something iirc21:06
+perlDreamerI mean, did you manually seed the repo with the tarballs and check them in by hand?21:06
@Haargwell, it's scripted21:06
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+perlDreamerwhat is qv?21:10
@Haargfrom version21:10
@Haargmakes a version object21:10
+perlDreamerI couldn't find that in perlfunc or perlop21:10
@Haargso i can sort them easily21:10
+perlDreamerah, it comes from version21:11
@Haarginitially it was planned to be a quoting construct like q/qq/qw21:11
@Haargthat didn't work out though21:11
+perlDreamerversion objects have had a long and bumpy history21:13
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@Haargi tracked down the problem with the username not showing in emailed inbox messages21:17
+perlDreamercool!  Was it in the inbox code?21:17
@Haargyeah, between there and the i18n message21:18
+perlDreamerdouble tragedy. There's leftover gravy, but no biscuits.  And there's spaghetti, but no sauce.21:27
* perlDreamer is hungry, but not desperate to try to bridge that gap21:28
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