WebGUI irc logs from: 2014-08.log

--- Log opened Fri Aug 01 00:00:42 2014
elninok. I'll take a look at these tonight. 00:10
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webguicommits[webgui] beppu pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/compare/e7bec57c7bc1...0a3e71e62a2101:25
webguicommitswebgui/master 76b4df0 John BEPPU: minor refinement of install instructions01:25
webguicommitswebgui/master 0a3e71e John BEPPU: fix crash by preventing deletion of a session w/o valid id01:25
@scrottiethat must have changed in 8 because that bug is unfathomable.01:37
@scrottiealthought sessions usually stick around for a long time.  the session cookie has a long off expiration time.  did you notice what was making it expire in this case?01:38
beppuI looked at the cookies, and I saw that wgSession and m had an expiration date set to a year from now and there was also an sid that is set to expire less than an hour from now.02:17
beppuall I knew was that $self->getId was returning undef and passing that value to $self->cache->remove would cause CHI::something to crash.02:18
beppuYou might recall that I ran into the exact same problem the first time I tried to run webgui.  I got it running and then when I revisited it a few days later, BOOM.  stacktrace.02:21
beppuIs no one else experiencing this crash?02:22
@scrottieyeah, I remember you running in to that.02:29
@scrottieI haven't ran in to it.  I don't know what the "m" and "sid" cookies are.  I think that's part of 8 I'm not familiar with.02:30
@scrottieI think previously there was only the wgSession.02:30
@scrottieif it's still broken in some important way, someone will figure that out eventually.02:30
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beppuI wonder if m and sid are cookies that bled over from other webapps I ran on localhost (on different ports).02:36
webguicommits[webgui] beppu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/0de918b2fd81467e95a38f60e18235d3c6ce85df02:46
webguicommitswebgui/master 0de918b John BEPPU: fix make it so that .adminConsoleWorkArea is tall enough to not clip its right sidebar short02:46
beppuscrottie: I was thinking that it would be nice to have a development blog to keep people abreast of new developments and add its feed to http://ironman.enlightenedperl.org/ for visibility among people who use perl.02:55
@scrottieI was just going to post Twitter and the webgui.org forums now and again.  but a blog would be better.02:56
beppunot to be mean, but the webgui forums are a ghost town.02:57
@scrottiewell, yeah.02:57
beppuyour twitter is good, but there needs to be a place for articles too.02:57
@scrottieI honestly don't know how much my prescriptions will help things.02:57
@scrottieeven if it is easy to install and looks good, will it matter?02:57
@scrottieI guess that makes it an experiment.02:58
@scrottiegoals of the Kickstarter02:58
@scrottietoo many URLs are problematic.  what would be the best way to do that?02:58
@scrottieuse webgui.org?  I guess I have admin now.02:59
@scrottiehaven't tried it yet.02:59
@scrottieas does elnino02:59
@scrottiethat would be kind of cool if we started blogging there and then upgraded it to 8 and ugpraded the theme etc as we worked =)02:59
@scrottie(which reminds me that I haven't posted to keeptempehot.com in a while)03:00
beppuwebgui.org is the best domain to publish info on.  03:01
@scrottieI don't want to completely throw away what's there (though it's technically an option) until we're further along.03:01
@scrottieI hate cart-before-horse stuff.03:01
@scrottieso it should probably be cleaned up and re-orged a lot.03:02
@scrottiewhich makes elnino's arrival timely =)03:02
beppuIs elnino a plainblack employee?03:02
@scrottienope.  not that I know of.03:02
@scrottieright now, delikat and colin are doing wG stuff with PlainBlack.03:03
@scrottiedelikat offered to help if I can find a good sized job for him.03:03
beppuFor blogging, do you think plainblack would give us access to the existing http://blog.webgui.org/ ?03:07
@scrottieI think that's a Tumblr03:07
beppuit is a tumblr03:07
beppu(no need to make a new blog when one already exists)03:07
@scrottieis that what we want to do?  interested in opinion from jabberwork, elnino, and company03:08
@scrottiethat one preson with the untypeable handle that I was trying to con into doing a site to put banners on03:09
@scrottie(still have to do banners)03:09
@scrottieshould I open a ticket and give it a few days?03:09
beppujust need a place for technical content that's bigger than a tweet.03:10
@scrottieheh, right03:11
@scrottieelnino, are you on github?  is your nick the same there?03:11
webguicommits[webgui] beppu pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/edfe207e99bc515f56cb54727feed96c1ff86a3903:14
webguicommitswebgui/gh-pages edfe207 John Beppu: Create gh-pages branch via GitHub03:14
beppuWe can disable it, but http://alliumcepa.github.io/webgui/ is an option too.03:15
@scrottiewhat's the gh-pages branch for?03:15
beppuIt's a special branch in the github system where you can put static content and it'll get published to $user.github.io/$project .03:16
@scrottienot sure that's used in this case (but I don't know this stuff well)03:16
@scrottiewith a project page, it wants a seperate repo, which currently looks like this:  http://alliumcepa.github.io/03:16
@scrottieahh, /$project03:17
@scrottiehttp://alliumcepa.github.io/webgui/ ... is that redundant?03:17
@scrottiewith the other page?03:17
beppukinda.  we can get rid of it.03:17
beppublog.webgui.org is probably the best option.03:18
@scrottieas long as there aren't so many pages that my head explodes =)03:18
beppuI'm just going to delete the branch.03:20
webguicommits[webgui] beppu deleted gh-pages at edfe207: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/edfe20703:20
@scrottieit could be handy to have a page like that with more download/install options and link to that instead of the README.md in the main branch03:21
@scrottieI honestly have no idea and if someone else wants to sort it all out, I wouldn't mind too much.03:21
beppuDid you have any bigger plans for http://alliumcepa.github.io/ ?03:23
beppuWhat kind of content did you want there ^^^ ?03:23
@scrottiegoals are 1. fulfill promise in the kickstarter to put banners on a community page 2. some pretty landing page that links people off to other things03:24
@scrottieand only PlainBlack needs a banner right now.03:24
@scrottieas far as linking people off elsewhere, a link to a dev blog, a link to an installer, and a link to the github repo/contributor info seems like a good start.03:25
@scrottieand it does one of those right now.03:25
beppugonna head to http://js.la/ now.  catch you later.03:33
@scrottiehave fun!03:36
beppuThe venue is pretty cool.  It's a crazy artsy warehouse.05:07
@scrottienot loading for some reason05:14
elninoscrottie - I might be. i don't know.05:41
elninostepping away but will be back05:41
@scrottiebeppu, cool.  gamecolab had a really nice space too but they had to move.05:42
elninoscrottie. yes apparantly I am. I'm obviously not very active on github. not sure if I know my password.06:18
elninoi'm elnino0406:23
elninois there a way to following repositories? or do I have to follow people on github?06:24
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@scrottieyeah, you can follow repos06:44
@scrottie(sorry, this window got hidden)06:44
@scrottieif you go to https://github.com/alliumcepa/webgui, you should be able to click the "Watch" button06:45
@scrottiewanted to point out https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/issues/13 to you06:46
elninobeppu and scrottie i'm not an employee of plain black. just catcing up.06:54
@scrottieeven when I was working there, they never really told me who they had hired.  you just kind of ran into people.06:59
elninoblog, yep, that's what is a bit frustrating. webgui.org had blogs, but then jt or whoever went on some other platform, and I stopped getting notifications. ifyou're going to blog, I'd use the platformon which you are trying promote. and if it stinks, then it should be fixed. - that's my opinion.07:00
@scrottieadding that comment to that ticket on your behalf07:01
@scrottieyeah.  I recall JT decided that they didn't really look good enough.  and he was right.07:02
elninowebgui's or the other platform?07:02
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@scrottiewebgui's didn't look good enough.07:02
elninoit seems hes got blogs everywhere, and I don't know where to look any nmore.07:03
elninolooks are easy to fix! 07:03
@scrottieand I think JT wanted to tie into social networking aspects so people could follow him.07:03
@scrottieheh, yeah.07:03
elninoand that's what needs to be improved upon in webgui's CS. sigh. 07:04
@scrottiewell, so far, we have two votes in favor of blogging on webgui.org and one on blog.webgui.org.07:06
elninowell, I guess I would still blog on webgui. though it's not as featured as wordpress or others. we can always add social sharing stuff via facebook's code snippets. or use addthis . I think I came across someother niffty code. 07:06
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@scrottieit might be worth setting up something on webgui.org again for beppu and others to look at.07:06
elninooh. well what's blog.webgui.org? is that still webgui? or some other platform?07:06
elninoah. yeah. yuck.07:07
elninomy official vote is indeed webgui.org (webgui's platform)07:07
@scrottieI think email notifications are more important than Facebook integration, but addthis could be done07:07
elninoscrottie, test07:12
elninoscrottie: test07:12
elninoMSG scrottie test07:12
elninodumb help file.07:12
@scrottie /help07:18
@scrottie /msg 07:18
elninoI'm better with webgui than xchat. =)07:21
elninook. so I poked around. the blue box on the home page of webgui.org is a synicate feed of blog.webgui.org. and the link in the menu at the top is also pointing to blog.webgui.org07:23
elninoso it may be confusing to change those. is there a "webgui 8 " portoin of the website that we can have a blog and bug reports and stuff? i'm assumin addons probably wont' be compatible either. do we need a whole nother section?07:24
@scrottiewebgui.org/8 is mostly the bug tracker right now, but that's the closest thing to that07:25
elninoin theory -if we have a wg-based blog we can list it's rss feed along side with blog.webgui.org's feed. so that they looked combined on the home page's blue box.07:26
@scrottieI think sites like feedburner will let you created one RSS feed combined from two07:26
@scrottiebut I don't think people are really following 7 right now07:27
@scrottie7 releases are just bugfix releases07:27
@scrottieI say get rid of the cruft.07:27
@scrottieif JT is happily handing over the keys, go crazy.07:28
@scrottiemake it look alive.07:28
elninoneed a blog first with content. =) ok here's my idea right now:07:28
elnino1) create a whole section for wb8 link it from the top menu.07:29
elninowithin this section include the bug tracker, blog, and whatever.07:29
elnino3) in the current bug tracker make a decision point  go 7x or 8x07:29
elnino4) in the current request feature page, make a decision point to go 7x or 8x. so that all bases are covered. 07:30
elnino3) I'm referring to http://www.webgui.org/bugs, so you'll have two buttons or something. I know it's extra navigation which I normally do not like, but if people go there, the choice will be in itself a way to announce that we are still alive. (same with http://www.webgui.org/rfe)07:32
@scrottieone consideration is that changing URLs would kind of break links in that the page would have different stuff than it did before07:33
@scrottieeg if 8 bugs got moved from webgui.org/8 to somewhere else07:33
@scrottiebut that might not be so bad07:33
elninoput the v8 prominantly on those pages, and then have a "are yo ulooking for v7? go here instead) type of thing.07:33
@scrottieon second thought, no one is using the site right now07:33
elninoI don't like changing urls. They won't change. i'm thinking webgui.org/8 is the new section.07:34
elninowe just move it so that it's up in the top navigation area.07:34
@scrottieworks for me.07:34
elninohttp://www.webgui.org/community would also have to be updated to pull from both v7 and v807:36
@scrottieto minimize the ghost town effect, I propose making the wg8 area very small07:36
elninoso do you prefer the "choose v7 or v8" idea? or "here's v8, but if you want v7 you have to go here?"07:37
@scrottieone blog/forum for development updates; maybe an additional forum for discussion or maybe keep it the same one; one bug tracker07:37
@scrottieI like the idea of adding links to the 8 counterpart on various 7 pages07:37
elninoto confirm:  "choose either v7 or v8"?07:39
@scrottiethat kind of changes urls if you force them to pick.07:39
@scrottiethen links to the etcetra discussion board for example no longer go directly there.07:39
@scrottiemaybe just put a highly visible link (pretty graphic maybe) linking to the 8 counterpart on various 7 related pages?07:40
elninokinda. hold on,.07:41
elninook. lets talk bug tracker.07:42
elninowebgui.org/bugs is a pagelayout witha helpdesk asset dedicated to v707:43
elninowhen you start working in the help desk itself, you are no longer on /  bugs07:43
elninoso on / bugs, I'd either put two buttons that go directly to the corresponding help desks, or07:43
elninoput the v8 on / bugs and make v7 stand on its own. make sense? no urls would change because once you are in the help desk your looking at it's url, not / bugs07:44
@scrottieI might be not seeing what you're thinking, but pages with just two links (to 7 and to 8) seems kind of ugly to me.07:44
@scrottiebut if you think I'm wrong, please go ahead anyway.07:44
elninoI agree I'm leaning towards puting v8 on / bugs and saying "if you want v7 it's over here now"07:45
@scrottieI think I'm being opinionated where I shouldn't be because I don't understand...07:46
@scrottiebut it seems like leaving /bugs for 7 but adding a link to /8 to view 8 bugs makes more sense07:46
@scrottieless stuff moves07:46
elninoI'll be done with a version tag here soon.07:50
elninodo you have a request features help desk yet?07:52
@scrottiebefore JT offered up access and run of webgui.org, I had this idea I'd set up a "project" on github07:53
@scrottieso we've been using that07:53
elninooh ok. so you want to continue using that?07:53
@scrottieI'm not sure any more =P07:54
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@scrottiethat's just supposed to be a landing page that looks nice and links people off and displays a few banners07:54
elninoI wonder if v8 requests are being entered in the current system on webgui.org07:54
@scrottiewell, webgui.org/8 is kind of a combined bug tracker and feature request tracker07:55
elninooh i guess rfes do not specify versions.07:55
elninoyep, there'sthat too. its a blur.07:55
@scrottiebut having them go into the main rfe thing when they should go in webgui.org/8 will get them ignored07:55
@scrottiebecause no one is going to add ambitious new features to 707:55
@scrottieor really make much of any serious changes to it07:56
elninowell, in a sense, rfes apply to both v7 and v8 - someone just has to go thru the rfes listed and see if they've been fullfilled.07:59
@scrottieyeah, that's a good point.07:59
@scrottieI have a pretty well defined mission and it doesn't include implementing RFEs.07:59
@scrottiein fact, most of the stuff marked "blocking" in the 8 tracker, I'm not planning to do.08:00
@scrottiemy goals are:  make it really really easy to install; make it look good; get a beta out.08:00
@scrottieafter that, we'll see, but so far, 8 has suffered far too much from a certain person refusing to ever finish it and let it go.08:00
@scrottie... and I'm working on the installer first and then bugs so that people can install the buggy thing, and then so that they can run a less buggy ugly thing, etc08:01
elninoThat's a good plan. And really I think rfes are a bit premature. So maybe just leave it as is. when v8 comes out, then  we can look cleaning them up.08:01
elninook. i'll look at the bug traker thing again. 08:02
@scrottiealright.  let me know if you want feedback on anything (or just want to share).08:02
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elninopreference to v7.x? v7? 7.x?08:14
@scrottiehmm.  no opinion...08:19
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elninoi'm doing 7.x08:24
elninoit's what i've noticed the most.08:24
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elninok i'm done. here's what I got: 08:32
elninook, here's what I got under my version tag.08:32
elnino1) The only article template I found to be eye catching is an awful yellow thing - so I used that....=)08:32
elnino2) On http://www.webgui.org/user-guides - I renamed them to include 7.x. and put a "coming soon" for v8. For the future, I recommend a complete new set of userguides, OR just go to the wiki section. I find it confusing that they have an ordained wiki and a user wiki. There is good info in both, and hard to search in different areas.08:32
elnino3) http://www.webgui.org/community/addons - I didn't do anything, but for the future, am I to assume that 7.x addons will not be compatible for v8? If so, I recommend putting I'll put 7.x everywhere on that page, and creating a new section for 8.x addons08:32
elnino4) http://www.webgui.org/forums - I added a etc8 user forum - the other ones are pretty small and generic to both versions I' assuming, so I didn't add any others.08:32
elnino5) http://www.webgui.org/bugs - I hid the 7.x, moved the 8.x onto this page. put a short cut on webgui.org/8 (so it's in both places without duplication) 08:32
elnino6) I didn't do this yet, but I'll move webgui.org/8 to top level so it appears on the main menu.08:33
@scrottieI don't think it would be honest to say "coming soon" for v8 guides since no one is even planning to work on that08:38
@scrottieand I'm sure the ones for 7 were a large undertaking by paid staff08:38
@scrottiere: 7.x addons, correct, sadly.08:39
@scrottiere: a new section for 8.x addons, let's burn that bridge when we come to it (when someone writes one)08:40
@scrottiewould a developer's blog that people could comment on serve all needs?08:41
@scrottieright now, there aren't v8 users, yet08:41
elnino2) I'll request for a volunteer then. =)08:41
elnino3) agreed. i'll just write 7.x all over the addons page for clarity.08:41
@scrottieso discussion is going to be limited to discussion development for the time being.  I hate to put forums up there that don't get used.  just looks bad.08:41
@scrottieor were you thinking of us using the etc8 forum as the dev blog?08:42
elnino4) to be used however you want. I'll go thru v7 and see if there is v8 discussion to be moved.08:42
@scrottiere: 6, as long webgui.org/8 goes to something, cool08:43
@scrottieokay.  if it is a developer's blog, it could probably be named more aptly.  webgui.org/8/blog ?08:43
elninowait blog? I didn't do anything blog, just a forum.08:44
@scrottiebeppu suggested earlier that we start a blog to talk about development progress etc08:44
@scrottiethen there was some discussion about whether it should be on webgui.org (you decided you were in favor of that after some discussion), on the existing blog.webgui.org Tumblr, or elsewhere.08:45
elninoyes. I aggree. I didn't make one yet.want me to add that under this version tag?08:45
@scrottieI'm thinking we should at least show it to beppu and company.08:45
elninoI won't commit it.08:46
@scrottieprobably easier if you do.08:46
@scrottieplease feel free to.08:46
@scrottieI don't see any harm in tweaking things and moving them around for a while, live.08:46
elninore 2) you do have an install guide I saw on your github as a starter.08:47
@scrottiethere are some install instructions in the repo at http://alliumcepa.github.org/webgui 08:47
@scrottiebut it's basically a short, unhelpful version of the source install instructions08:48
@scrottieI have a terminal (curses) based installer that's in progress08:48
@scrottieI want to move the source install instructions to another file and just tell people to use that, or some other method08:48
@scrottiethere was talk of publishing a Docker container, and I have some other ideas08:48
@scrottiehttps://www.youtube.com/user/DanielProgrammer has a screencast thing of the curses installer 08:50
elninore 6, I moved it and moved it back. it looses the community sub menu on the left. So I'll just make a redirect instead.08:53
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elninohttp://beta.webgui.org/ goes to YAPC is there a beta demo at all anymore?09:30
@scrottieno, there isn't currently a beta09:31
@scrottiethat's part of what I need to do.09:32
@scrottiebut the installer comes first.09:32
@scrottieit's developer only at the moment.09:32
elninoI hid it for now.09:47
elninoga I hate that. they had comments skipped for version tags. 09:49
elninofor the record, this iswhat I did: 09:50
elnino1) The only article template I found to be eye catching is an awful yellow thing - so I used that....=)09:50
elnino2) http://www.webgui.org/user-guides - I renamed them to include 7.x. and put a call for volunteers for v8. 09:50
elnino3) http://www.webgui.org/community/addons - changed title to include 7.x. per scrottie, 7.x addons will not be compatible with 8x.09:50
elnino4) http://www.webgui.org/forums - I added a etc8 user forum - the other ones are pretty small and generic to both versions I' assuming, so I didn't add any others.09:50
elnino5) http://www.webgui.org/bugs - I hid the 7.x, moved the 8.x onto this page. put a short cut on webgui.org/8 (so it's in both places without duplication) 09:50
elnino6) added a redirect in top menu to go to webgui 8's landing page. 09:50
elnino7) http://www.webgui.org/promote/the-people-behind-wg removed pagination09:50
elnino8) http://www.webgui.org/8 added developers blog. 09:50
elnino9) hide http://beta.webgui.org/ from http://www.webgui.org/features because it goes to YAPC instead.09:50
elnino10) http://www.webgui.org/rfe added 3 options from the faq.09:50
elnino11) Download - hid the bullhorn and adviries via page layout, since not being used.09:50
elninodevelopers blog is hidden for now.09:53
elninopopulating developers blog from features status on webgui.org/809:57
@scrottiethis 7/8 schism is annoying =P10:00
@scrottieon http://www.webgui.org/user-guides#, the "Distance is not an obstacle... Join the Discussion on IRC" banner is a broken link10:05
@scrottieI know there's a lot of those but I just happened to notice that10:05
@scrottieI'm thinking the 8 bugs on webgui.org/8 is too much for one page.  maybe drop the shortcut and just have the blog there, with a link to bugs and etc8?10:06
@scrottie(just an opinion; feel free to solicit other opinions and second guess)10:07
@scrottieoh, heh, thought there were broken macros on http://www.webgui.org/community/addons, but people were just discussing macros =P10:09
elninothanksfor finding that.I'll try to fix that banner. I thought the 8bugs was too much too, but I said I'd do that so I did. I'll remove with a link.10:10
@scrottieyeah, you did say that.  you were right.10:10
@scrottiesorry.  I guess I got used to the idea of that being the bug page but I just need to let go of that.10:11
elninono I meant that I said I'd leave the bugs on the page. so I did. but origianl I didn't want to. ;)10:11
elninowe're talking about webgui.org/8 right?10:11
@scrottiethank you for indulging me on that, but you were right.10:12
@scrottieand I see about the yellow thing.  that's pretty... something.10:12
elninolook at /8 now. I added the dev blog and put your feature status into it. I was thinking of removing the bullet list. If not, I can undo what I did easily.10:13
@scrottieI think that could be refined as time goes on10:14
@scrottiedifferent banner, etc10:14
* scrottie subscribes to the developers blog10:15
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@scrottieoh, and more yellow10:15
elninohe he. I didn't have time to think of anytihg differnent than using what they already have. Sorry abou tthe yellow. 10:16
@scrottieit's okay10:16
@scrottieat least for now =)10:16
elninoyou are calling this alpha still, right?10:20
elninoI lost the link to github.10:20
elninoare you ok witht he dev blog? 10:22
@scrottieyes, thank you10:22
@scrottiewell... 10:22
elninook. I'll remove the bullet list.10:22
@scrottieI'm hoping that other people are on board with it too10:23
@scrottieI don't think it hurts to keep the collaboration system there for updates even if another blog is used, so leaving it seems fine10:23
elninook. you could use it for advisories like wg used to for 7.x - I was bummed when they removed that.10:24
elninoit can mutate over time10:24
@scrottieand it is mutating =P10:31
elninofixed banner, not live yet tho10:35
elninocan you check to see if /wiki/irc is correct information? that is what the banner is supposed to be linking to.10:37
elninoi'm obviously not up on my irc10:38
@scrottiechannel bots are gone... some of those long gone10:40
@scrottieperlbot is here!10:40
@scrottiehi perlbot.10:40
@scrottieI didn't know xdanger was responsible for mentalhouse.net10:40
@scrottiedass cool10:41
@scrottieI don't know how many of the client links are still working or recommendable10:41
@scrottie"As usual concerning WebGUI development, this is for people who are working on WebGUI itself, either modifying the core code or writing wobject/asset code in perl (ok, and maybe macros), not for people who are working on websites *using* WebGUI."10:42
@scrottieI don't think we need that rule10:42
@scrottiewe've been doing help on here for ages10:42
elninook. i'll remove that statement. any idea what this is? http://www.webgui.org/webgui/irc-chat-applet10:43
@scrottieit must be a Java applet10:43
@scrottiethat link can go10:43
elninothis one perhaps? 10:46
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someonenewhi its just elnino. bye.10:53
@scrottieheh, nice10:53
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@scrottieI don't have the Java plugin installed10:53
@scrottieI think OSX still has it, but linux and Windows basically gave up on it.  too many security updates and problems, too heavy weight compared to Flash or JS10:53
elninoit's been deleted. is wasn't working in my browser dueto security issues. its in the trash.10:55
elninoi'll just leave it there.10:55
@scrottiethanks for working on that much needed housecleaning.10:55
@scrottieI think I need to hit the sack.10:55
elninome. I'm going to email JT about that link, I just don't want to be deleting things without them knowing. 10:56
elninogood night.10:56
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beppuYou guys were busy.16:29
elninohopefully for the good.17:25
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@scrottiehi beppu!19:35
@scrottiewhen you have a chance, could you comment on the developer blog thing?  it's pretty spartan right now, but that can be fixed.  I personally like the idea of having in wG at webgui.org/8 but if it just isn't cutting it how it is, we should talk about doing something else.19:36
beppuscrottie: I think it's perfectly fine to have the blog at http://www.webgui.org/8 .  I see that I'm allowed to add entries, too.  Thanks.20:35
beppuI see it has an rss feed too.  http://www.webgui.org/8/developers-blog?func=viewRss20:37
elninoumm.   I don't know what other permissions the "content managers" group has access to. I'll create a new group and assign it to the blog. can you plese provide me a list of users to you want access to that blog, and I'll create a new group. Thanks!20:38
elninoI meant that for scrottie.20:38
elninoUmm. There is already a group for webgui 8 ticket closers.  It seems logical to me that if they can close tickets, they could post on the blog, please let me know if that is wrong. mean while I'll create yet another security group - they got about 100 of them. be nice to streamline them. but I'm not paid enough to do that. 20:56
elninook. scrottie, beppu and danny should still have access to add to the blog. I just didn't want to inadvertantly give access to others under my watch.21:05
elninothe webgui 8 ticket group has a whole different group of people. it seems to be that the two lists should be merged. who decides on this?21:05
elninoI used o havea report somewhere that would list what assets a group has access to - that should be essential in something so complex as this cms I'll add it to the rfe.21:07
elninoThoughts on adding a version field to the RFE or adding webui 8 to the drop list? so that you guys can go thru the rfes in your spare time and flag the ones you want to include in wg8 someday?21:09
beppuThat sounds reasonable to me.21:26
beppuwait...  I shouldn't say things before I understand...  What is an RFE?21:28
elninorequest for enhancement21:34
elninooh. I meant to say the RFE tracker on webgui.org.21:38
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@scrottieContent Managers should be able to edit just about anything on the site22:03
@scrottiebut can't create users or do other admin work22:03
@scrottieI say turn people loose.22:03
@scrottiethe chances of anyone destroying anything in any serious way (accidentally or intentionally) are far less likely than the chances of everything turning into a ghost town.22:04
@scrottieand those two people already have access to the code repo anyway.22:04
@scrottieI suggest promoting anyone to Content Manager who appears to be good about coordinating work.22:05
elninoI don't feel comfortable doing that under my watch.  i'm not an employee of pb, it's not my site.22:05
@scrottiere: adding a version field to the RFE list, that sounds like a great way to handle that.22:05
elninodevelopers aren't marketing people, and marketing people aren't developers. not likeing that too much.22:05
@scrottieokay.  let's hold off now then.22:05
@scrottieJT had mentioned possibily "handing over" the site (to an organized wG community) before but we should get clarity on that.22:06
@scrottieand perhaps have a brief document on what content managers need to think about with respect to coordination etc.22:07
elninobut I have no problem putting all developers in a group for managing dev blog, rfes and bugs - agreed?22:08
elninoas to whether I'm a markting or develoepr - i'm neither anymore. just opinionated. =)22:12
@scrottieI'm starting to think that it would be fun to take http://alliumcepa.github.io and transplat that onto http://webgui.org.22:14
@scrottieat least for the first page.22:15
@scrottie(earlier discussion in here, we decided that the community beta of wG8 would be code-named allium cepa; I argued for trying to keep the wG name as much as possible, but not asking for this version to be made the official wG8 until after we had some work to show)22:16
@scrottieextremely non-busy pages seem to be in vogue these days22:17
elninoI thought that page looked pretty slick, that's why I pointed to that from webgui.org/8 22:17
@scrottieapparently caused by the popularity of mobile devices22:17
@scrottiethanks.  it's kind of a clone/mod of another site.22:18
@scrottiegotta do some errands.  bbiaf.22:22
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beppuelnino | but I have no problem putting all developers in a group for managing dev blog, rfes and bugs - agreed?   agreed!22:52
elninook www.webgui.org/commuinity/webgui-8/issues www.webgui.org/use/bugs/tracker www.webgui.org/rfe/request-for-enhancement www.webgui.org/8/developers-blog23:40
elninoall have the same persmission group called "webgui developers"23:40
elninothis group consists of danny_mk beppu bartjol dionak ekennedy frank frodwith Graham JT len LuckyLStrike martink mckenzie.tully patspam perlDreamer scottwalters topsub Vrby wouter yhkhoe23:40
elninoIf I missed you, please do not be offended. I just worked with what I had and added the only two people I knew I was to add.23:41
elninothis group was renamed from "bug fixers" and I deleted "webgui 8 ticket closers" and the one I made this morning.23:41
elninoi'll look at the wiki and forums... I forgot to look there.23:42
elninowiki remains unchanged.23:43
elninoforum unchanged.23:44
elninodo you want webgui 8 etc forum to be closed to only this new group for now?23:45
@scrottiemy opinion is hide it discussion board for now and just have the blog23:46
@scrottiethere are no wG8 users right now23:46
@scrottieand won't be until after a beta23:46
@scrottieimo, wait until it is actually needed... when wg8 discussion and wg7 discussion are competing for the same (existing) discussion areas.23:47
@scrottieI should post stuff to the blog.23:47
elninoadd-ins unchanged I figured on these assets.23:47
elninoI was reviewing the permission schemes on those assets.23:47
elninonow i'm going to talk about the etc 8 forum again. =)23:48
elninoI'll hide it to be only for the webgui developer group for now.23:48
elninodo I *hide* it, or make it visible and lock it down to only for developers to post?23:50
@scrottiehide it23:50
@scrottieI'm hoping to avoid things that look dead23:50
@scrottieavoid ghost town23:51
elninook. you'll have to be logged into see it.23:51
elninonow it's committed.I'm done.  Just for the record, most assets properties are editable by "Plain Black Staff" group. but the webgui developers can post all you want on the things mentioned above. I just followed suit with the edit permissions.23:53
elninonow i'm done. Got some stuff I have to do off line. Have fun!23:53
@scrottieokay.  thank you.  catch you later I hope!23:53
elninoerrr. I stil  see that forum.23:54
@scrottienot a big deal.  do the stuff that you need to do.23:54
elninoI cleared the cache, it's gone.23:55
elninoi mean hidden.23:55
@scrottieah okay23:55
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haargre: http://www.webgui.org/wiki/irc i'm pretty sure freenode blocks mibbit00:30
@scrottieI can't imagine this wording aobut EFNET is correct:00:34
@scrottie"You can join the webgui channel from one of 2 different networks.  You can either join from irc.freenode.net or from EFNet.  Then join #webgui. "00:34
@scrottieare Freenode and EFNET joined at the hip?00:35
@scrottieregardless, I don't think people need to know about that.00:35
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elninoanything interesting going on?05:20
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@scrottiewww.webgui.org/8/developers-blog/a-community-project-to-finish-webgui-8 ... I'm not sure what the arrow is supposed to do, but it doesn't seem to do much, and things are getting cut off.  I didn't look at the CSS.09:00
@scrottienot sure if you want to, elnino.  if not, I can poke at it later.09:00
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elninogood morning. ah, yes, I saw that in the template. not sure where that is supposed to go either. i'll put it on my list to do.09:35
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@scrottieelnino, did you take me out of the Admin group?  or was I not in it?18:12
@scrottieI seem to be able to edit users but I don't have access to the Security tabs.  since beppu was working on the CSS for the blog, I wanted to give him access to edit that template.18:13
beppuIs that CSS in an Asset and not in a file in the filesystem?18:13
@scrottiejust added a comment:  https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/issues/13#issuecomment-5096440718:14
@scrottiethat's kind of the general process for finding a bit of HTML or CSS to edit.18:15
@scrottieoops, http://www.webgui.org/root/import/wg09/community-style?func=edit is wrong.  http://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?func=edit should be right.18:15
beppuPermission Denied!18:16
@scrottieyeah.  waiting on elnino for access.18:16
@scrottieI thought I had admin but I guess I don't.  I didn't before so I'm not too surprised.18:17
@scrottieI have some lower access level that lets me edit some stuff and gives me some access to some control panels.18:17
@scrottiewG has an extremely fine grained permission system as a result of getting used by large governmental agencies =P18:18
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elninohi. I'm makeing/eating lunch with family. I'll look. sorry, I didnt' mess with your permissions=, just the groups I mentioned.21:59
@scrottieno problem.  just curious.22:02
elninook. I have 3 mineus.. what don't you have access to?22:09
@scrottieum, okay22:09
elninooh.what's your username22:09
@scrottiehttp://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?func=edit ... it would be nice if beppu (and maybe the rest of the new group you created whose name I forgot) could edit that template22:10
elninosorry brain fart on your name22:10
@scrottiethe WebGUI Developers group was it22:10
@scrottieI can edit it but beppu says he gets permission denied22:11
elninoscrottie is admin and webgui develoers group.22:11
elninobepp is webgui developers group. I'll look at the asset22:12
@scrottieah, apparently I have two accounts then22:12
@scrottiemaybe webgui developers should own that template then.  but I could log in as scrottie and fix that.22:12
elninono, scottwalters is admin and webgui develers22:12
elninoand you have that asset locked under a version tag.22:13
@scrottiewhy can't I see Security tabs?22:13
elninothat's why no one can edit it.22:13
* scrottie blushes22:13
elninothat would be your ui level. you are probably at default 522:13
elninoI had to change mine to 922:13
elninodo I need to change anything, or do you understand it all now?22:14
@scrottieI should be able to manage.  thank you.22:14
elninobasically you locked out beppu22:15
@scrottieaha, there's that security tab.22:15
@scrottieheh.  brilliant.22:15
elninok. I'll eat now.22:15
@scrottiebon appetit!22:15
@scrottiebeppu, you should be able to edit http://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?func=edit now.  the CSS is in the Metadata tab.22:16
@scrottieif you're so inclined.22:16
elninoscrottie, do you want developers to be editing templates?23:03
@scrottieis that a trick question?23:04
elninoand just so you know, you don't have two accounts.23:04
@scrottieyes, absolutely.23:04
@scrottieif someone can help do something so that I don't have to, by all means.23:04
elninojust trying to make sure I'm responding to everything.23:04
@scrottiethings should be in good shape for the moment.23:04
@scrottiein the long term, I'm hoping someone can help me update styles on webgui.org.23:05
@scrottieif we're going to use it.23:05
elninoI'll dig around and see how templates are setup .23:05
elninoI didn't look at persmissions to those.23:05
@scrottieokay.  I think I probably made the yellow thing not-yellow side wide.  fixing that will require a background image that tiles better, or else using CSS gradiants.23:05
elninoby default there is the "template manager" group. 23:05
@scrottiehmm, I probably do still need to tweak beppu's permissions.23:06
elninoI dunno. I just used a template that was there. I made a list of things I'd like to do on the templates. we can coordinate on that later - you have to focus on wg823:06
elninohe's only in the webgui develoeprs group.23:06
@scrottiesorry to meddle23:07
@scrottieI misunderstood.  I thought you were taking a break for a while.23:07
elninojust for lunch.  =)23:07
@scrottieer, I got that impression last night.23:07
@scrottiebut you're right, we do need to coordinate.  could you comment on https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/issues/13 ?23:08
elninooh. I have no idea what I said last night. It was late. =)23:08
@scrottiewe (mostly I) have been using github's issue tracker for meta stuff (todo and bugs not actually in wg8 code)23:08
elninooh ok. I can put my wish list there...23:08
@scrottieand just comment briefly on your plans?23:09
@scrottiefeel free to revert my edits, but in the very short term, it makes it usable though not pretty23:09
@scrottieI guess we never really talked about who wanted to do CSS/design work.23:11
@scrottiejust organization.23:11
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beppuscrottie: I still get a Permission Denied!00:12
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@scrottieprobably another open version tag after editing the group.00:43
@scrottieused to those autocommiting.00:43
@scrottietry again now?00:45
beppuStill permission denied.00:51
@scrottieokay, one more thing, and then I'll leave it alone unless you're really bored00:52
@scrottiegah.  okay.  I'll play with it later.00:52
elninoi'll look beppu - it's likely my fault somewhere.01:56
elninook.  the link he game you is the template link. What do you want to modify?  Right now, I just followed suit with the rest of the site, and assets themselves and templates are editable by the "plainblack staff" group. which I know you are not a member of.01:57
elninonevermind 01:58
elninoit was locked by his version tag. beppu - you should have access now.02:02
@scrottieI thought I commit the version tag that was open.02:02
elninoI just did.02:03
elninofor you.02:03
elninoI'll change your user so that it's autocommit.02:03
elninoapparantly that's defult.02:03
elninook. you are off version tags.02:03
elninobeppu is setup for versoin tags. I like them. I can change them for beppu if you want, or you should be able to modify that in your profile. I think02:05
elninoi'm not really sure how to translate hmm and hrm.02:07
@scrottiethat's interesting that you can change whether version tags autocommit in your own profile.02:08
@scrottiedid not know that.02:08
elninoso hmm = interesting. ok. thanks!02:09
@scrottiehmm could also be "I'm thinking"02:09
elninolol. ok. 02:09
beppuI have access now.  Thanks, elnino.02:17
elninodo you want version tags? or autocommit?02:18
beppuI don't even know what that means.02:19
@scrottieyou should stick with version tags.  I'll figure out how to manage it.02:19
elninobeppu - and you are setup for adept ui. if you can't change that I can up that if you want.02:19
@scrottiewhoops, not for me.02:19
beppuI see someone already made the CSS changes I suggested.02:19
@scrottieyou two should coordinate on that one template.02:19
beppuhttp://www.webgui.org/8/developers-blog/a-community-project-to-finish-webgui-8 is legible now.02:19
@scrottieyeah, I was just thinking that you should have access to it if you wanted to muck with it more, and in general, the developers should be able to tweak things.02:20
@scrottiebut elnino was talking about doing more style work too.02:20
elninoi started some discussions on the github thing.02:20
elninobeppu  - is your ui level fine for you?02:21
@scrottiehigher UI levels have more controls.02:21
beppuI think it's fine for now.  02:22
@scrottiere: version tags, you can batch up a bunch of edits together and then revert all of them if you like.02:22
beppuI wasn't planning on making huge changes.  For the blog, I just wanted to be able to read the post so I was mostly removing styles.02:22
@scrottiewG remembers previous versions of assets, by default going back like a year or something.02:22
@scrottiea version tag is a bach of changes.02:23
@scrottieyou probably want your version tags to autocommit.02:23
@scrottieuncommitted changes aren't visible on the site yet.02:23
elninobut version tags let you play with code without going live - that's why I like them. You just have to remember to commit them from the admin bar.02:24
beppuI think I can remember to do that.02:24
@scrottiestill, autocommit is better if you're not making a bunch of related changes all over the place.02:25
elninohow about this, I'll set beppu up with only on version tag at a time so s/he doesn't lock themselves out of assets. that's frustrating if you aren't familiar with them.02:25
elninosorry I don't know any of you. to know what pronoun to use. except for scrottie.02:26
beppu(I'm a guy.)  02:26
@scrottieelnino, you know the content manager side of wG way better than I do.02:26
beppuelnino: I'll trust your judgement on these matters.  I need to learn more about webgui.  I'm just a programmer who likes to help scrottie out from time to time.02:29
elninotell me if/when the commiting the version tag becomes bothersome.02:41
@scrottieto commit the version tag, go in to the control panel (there's a link in the top right in the asset edit screen), look for the Version Tag icon, click it, and then click the commit button for the one with your name on it02:44
beppuHow do I enable the admin features?  (turn admin on)02:51
@scrottiethat's one way to do it, yeah02:51
@scrottiethen you should get an accordian thing on the left02:51
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@scrottieavast ye scruvy hacker!22:53
elninojust curious.... What is plainblacks involvement with maintaining webgui, it webqui going to be truely community supported? is he moving away from developement and focusing on hosting and web design?22:54
@scrottiePlainBlack hasn't been doing much with wG at all.  they have some support contracts which result in bug fixes (which result in bug fix releases).  they're doing some hosting.22:55
@scrottiemostly they've been doing The Lucana Expanse and The Game Crafter and a few other business ideas.22:55
@scrottieso if wG is going to survive, it has to be community developed.22:56
elninoso they are staying with 7.x?22:57
elninoandyour goal is to get it released? or into beta?22:57
elninoit = wg822:57
@scrottiegoal is to get 8 released as a beta22:57
@scrottiethey're staying with 7 just because that's what clients are paying for.22:57
@scrottieif people were paying for 8, they'd do that too.22:57
elninoand the benefits to going to 8 are?22:59
@scrottiethat's the rub.  there are no benefits to businesses already using 7.22:59
@scrottieif 7 wasn't getting bug fixes any more and wasn't supported, but 8 was, then there would be that incentive to upgrade.22:59
@scrottie8 is for new installs, really.23:00
@scrottienew people.23:00
elninois JT willing/committed to encourge upgrading to 8? or is he sticking with 7 for ever?23:00
@scrottieJT is very business minded.23:01
@scrottieif he can't make a business case for why people should upgrade to 8, he won't make a case.23:01
@scrottieand none of us really have a business case for it for existing clients.23:01
@scrottie8 was an internals cleanup and modernization.23:01
@scrottieI guess the admin is also faster... or was... but it does cross frame stuff that's now forbidden by default by modern browsers, so it really doesn't work at all in one sense.23:02
@scrottiethat was part of the business case.23:02
elninowell, I don't really see much movement on the 7.x side of thigns either, unless he's releasing bug releases only to his customers and not posting them?23:02
@scrottiethe asset definition syntax changed to be based on Moose.23:02
@scrottiecould be.  or maybe there just aren't many bugs.  I know a few people in PB are still doing client stuff for 7 customers.23:02
@scrottieanyone who wanted to upgrade to 8 would have to rewrite their custom assets.23:03
@scrottieor maybe translate.  not quite rewrite.23:03
@scrottieso really users are a new generation.23:03
elninoI should see if i'm using the latest 7.  how many features do you think will be included in 8 that are recognizabley in 7?  I use sql reports, thingy mostly dataform, data table mostly.23:07
@scrottiebasically everything is there.23:08
@scrottiethere are a few very misc things that are broken.23:08
@scrottieHTTP Basic auth being enabled as optional is broken, for example.23:08
elninowell if everything is there, then the business case it to keep getting bug fixes and new features.23:09
elninois it able to be installed on shared hosting? i heard someone was working on that at one poitnt.23:10
@scrottiethat would be pretty slow, but Plack makes it possible.23:11
@scrottienot many shared hosts support daemonized processes.23:12
elninobtw, I was looking at webgui's facebook page, last post was march 2013. why wasn't kickstarter mentioned there?23:14
elninobeppu - you have an uncomitted version tag, do you want me to make it live for you?23:15
@scrottieI don't have access to that and JT didn't post anything there and I don't think many people follow it and promoting things on FB works very badly anyway.23:16
elninoand out of curiousity do they still have the user conferrence in Wisconsin?23:28
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beppuelnino: Sure.23:43
beppuI don't recall changing anything, though.  Maybe it was the CSS for the blog, but I think scrottie made all the changes I suggested, so I left it alone.23:44
elninoit was a change to the blog's template, yes. I'll look and make sure it looks fine.23:46
elninofrom two days ago.23:47
elninoI see no visiable change. 23:47
elninobut the font is still really small on ff, so'll make it bigger.23:47
beppugood idea23:51
beppubusy w/ the day $job right now.23:51
@scrottieelnino, nope, conference got axed a few years ago.23:54
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ckotilneat, may have to run through that 23:58
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beppui like how they went through the config and replaced values with environment variables00:00
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beppuHey there.  Things have been quiet here the past few days.04:13
beppuI'm thinking of getting my feet wet with docker this weekend, though.04:13
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@scrottiethat would be awesome.23:55
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ToApolytoXaosscrottie, about this message on your twitter https://twitter.com/scrottie/status/49745532672398950418:28
ToApolytoXaosthe same rule stands for women too; as soon as you are with someone, your very first girlfriend will *miss* you!18:29
ToApolytoXaosa humongous "WTF people" moment for anyone and everyone who lived it18:29
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@scrottieheh.  yeah.  people are strange.20:44
@scrottieI feel like job hunting is a good, observable microcosm of a lot of human stuff.20:46
@scrottieExperiments are reproducable (you can try the same control/experiment with multiple recruiters or companies).  People are less defensive about it because most of us already know job hunting is kind of rotten.20:47
@scrottieand experiments are fun!20:47
@scrottie(coffee slowly kicking in)20:47
ToApolytoXaosi got really disappointed these passing days mate :/ i have search to see various Perl CMS and frameworks, and the sites they were supposedly using it (users should be called, like "dancers"?) they switch to either aspx or PHP. this is so discouraging >:(21:07
jabberwokand doing too much PHP can cripple your brain21:12
ToApolytoXaosit depresses the hell out of me seeing such thing21:12
jabberwoki'm kicking about a patch, starting with "choose a user, create the user, run webgui as this user" ... eventually i'd like to see the whole thing more like the debian installer where you can go back and retry things, or skip steps.  so far the first bit is nearly working, but testing is a bother.21:15
ToApolytoXaostoo bad Perl lacks a feature like PHP where you just place your scripts in a location like /var/www/ and works without extra fuss.21:19
ToApolytoXaosto do such thing you need to tweak many things yourself and i doubt newbies could do such thing21:20
jabberwokcontrariwise, that's the worst part of php, any random file can be executed 21:22
ToApolytoXaosimagine, even Google that created google apps to fight PHP with the use of Python / Java based web apps had added PHP support due to the high demand from interested clients21:24
ToApolytoXaosone word: DAAAAAMN! :S21:24
jabberwoknever could see the appeal of python, or ruby.21:25
ToApolytoXaospython is alright...ruby is confusing at least to me21:28
ToApolytoXaosanother scary thing is Go language21:29
ToApolytoXaosmany companies are adapting it and get rid of Java and whatever they use as their back-end as a stack of various technologies21:30
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jabberwokGo looks suspiciously like Pascal =ugh=-21:34
ToApolytoXaosthey based its syntax from it21:39
jabberwok(( backs away slowly ))21:39
ToApolytoXaosthis is the article that inspired many companies to start using it as their PaaS http://blog.iron.io/2013/03/how-we-went-from-30-servers-to-2-go.html21:40
jabberwokhe writes: "Here's how things went down."  i'm thinking: The server, the switch, the battery backup...21:40
ToApolytoXaosseriously, i have read quite a few articles pointing valid reasonings for migrating to Go21:42
jabberwokoh, Ruby.  yeah, it looks fun and then you write a few thousand lines of code that eat entire supercomputer clusters for lunch21:42
ToApolytoXaosi haven't used it, but read from many resources how slow it is21:42
ToApolytoXaosthat's why her creator designed to redesign a new interpreter that would be lightweight; see mruby21:43
jabberwokhmm, nice.  (looks it up).  so, it's like perl without cpan.21:45
ToApolytoXaosfor embedding actually21:46
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jabberwokok so i'm trying to learn Curses::Widget ... the tutorial in the bundled pod gives me a blank screen with no widget painted, nothing echoes, but when I press Enter the program terminates, /and leaves the terminal in no-echo, no-linefeed mode/.  AAAgh broken! wtf.00:01
jabberwokApparently you have to call endwin(); when you're done. This is not mentioned in the Curses::Widgets documentation nor is there any suggestion of best-practice to prevent the situation in the Real World. Nor can I yet get anything to display except "^[[A" (cursor up's escape code?) to display. This seems horribly brain-damaged.00:13
jabberwokoh good grief, there is not actually any documentation for this -- it's all just pointers to the archaic ncurses C library, which is a huge mess from the 1980s.  no wonder nobody uses this, I'm used to dealing with ANSI codes from back then, but even I am lost.  Total fail.00:20
jabberwokis there actually a working tutorial for use Curses; anywhere?00:25
jabberwokthe wG8 installer uses the Curses cpan library... which turns out to be a thin wrapper over a 1980s era terminal control library with no Perl level documentation anywhere on the web that I can find.00:54
jabberwokyes. that's for the C library.  that document is outdated , and does not document the Perl layer that sits on top.00:59
jabberwoki dare you to use that to write a few simple Perl example programs.00:59
jabberwokbut Curses::UI is a completely different animal , a whole nother way of doing things and an incompatible Perl module.  You can't use Curses::Widget and Curses::UI in the same program.01:16
ToApolytoXaosi don't know how else to help mate; sorry01:18
jabberwokno worries.  i am simply dismayed at the utter lack of documentation for so many free software projects. 01:19
ToApolytoXaosanyway, keep on searching through engines and you will find something, i'm sure about it. goodnight everyone01:20
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@scrottieI think I learned Curses::UI from looking at the demo programs.02:31
@scrottiewith some motivation from the docs.02:31
@scrottieand then some digging in the code, eg to implement backspace (ugh)02:32
@scrottieI really should release a layer on top of Curses::UI =P02:32
jabberwoki had been working on that a few years ago.  instead of getting frustrated then, i should have finished it... =shrug=02:37
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chris99Complete newbie question re installing WebGUI8...23:48
chris99I cloned from https://github.com/alliumcepa/webgui, and docs/install.txt tells me to clone from https://github.com/plainblack/webgui.git instead.23:49
chris99And README.md says something different entirely.  So where do I start?23:50
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@scrottiereporting the mess here is a good place to start00:53
@scrottiealliumcepa is "ahead of" plainblack right now00:54
@scrottiebut not by much00:54
@scrottieand fixes are going in there, so you probably want to work relative that one00:54
@scrottiealso, wG8 is badly alpha right now00:54
@scrottiethe installer doesn't work00:54
@scrottiebut if you're brave, the manual install process should, with some help00:54
@scrottie* The official PlainBlack WebGUI repo is at http://github.org/plainblack/webgui00:56
@scrottiethat's correct.  whatever PlainBlack is doing is the "official" wG.  I created a fork so that I could give out commit bits, and then I'll merge stuff back in to the PlainBlack after going over changes with them.00:56
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qwebirc60446Dave Baker testing01:43
qwebirc60446Congratulations on the successful kickstarter, scrottie!01:43
@scrottieheya, thanks!02:09
@scrottiemuch to do.  I'm just finishing up clearing off other obligations before focusing on this.02:14
qwebirc60446Would you recommend that I build a site with 7 now, or wait to do something with 8? I'm thinking that a lot of the skills would carry over.02:28
@scrottiewell, what's the plan for the site?  are you just tinkering, or is it going straight to production?02:33
@scrottieif you want to put in production right now and not a few months out, I'd go with 7.03:41
@scrottiebut we could use help fixing and testing 8.03:41
qwebirc60446I have a site that's doing fine so I'm in no hurry; guess I'd say it would be tinkering. I spent a ridiculous amount of money on a Joomla consultant and gave up.03:46
qwebirc60446To be able to contribute, I need to learn how to use git and github, I think. This would be a good time.03:47
qwebirc60446davebaker out - tnx!03:54
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starsoftscrottie: thanks for your reply.  I'll try starting from http://github.org/plainblack/webgui then.  (The link from http://www.webgui.org/8 goes to the alliumcepa fork though)11:11
beppustarsoft: I think you're better off forking alliumcepa/webgui because it will see more activity.11:51
starsoftbeppu: OK.  After re-reading what scrottie said, that's what I'll do.14:45
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beppuI wish etc/WebGUI.conf were perl instead of json.  If it were perl, I'd be able to say $ENV{WHATEVER} inside it.00:09
@scrottiegood point.  I suppose $ substitution could be done on the JSON =P00:10
beppuI didn't get around to messing w/ docker this weekend like I had wanted to, but in some of the wordpress on docker blog posts I've seen, people make use of env vars for config.00:14
@scrottieit would be half assed, but it could look for specific ENV vars and overwrite things in the config based on them.00:15
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starsoftI've been going through the instructions at https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui ...20:05
starsoftand got this error message:20:05
starsoftCan't call method "rethrow" on an undefined value at /loader/0x85f4eec/WGDev/Command.pm line 200.20:05
starsoftAny ideas?20:05
starsoftThis is on Debian Wheezy, Perl 5.14.220:06
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beppustarsoft: I'm going to guess that it's due to the rethrow at the bottom of https://github.com/haarg/wgdev/blob/master/lib/WGDev/Command.pm#L180-L198 22:25
beppuIt looks like it's looking for a config file but can't find one.22:26
beppustarsoft: Did you `export WEBGUI_CONFIG=etc/yoursite.conf` where yoursite.conf is a modified copy of etc/WebGUI.conf.original ?22:28
haargit's been a long time since i wrote that code.  seems like an odd failure though.  i don't see immediately how it would end up $e undef there.22:31
beppuI agree that it seems odd.22:31
haargsome of the design decisions i made there make me cringe22:33
beppufwiw, I tried setting my WEBGUI_CONFIG to a wrong value to try to reproduce the crash, but it handles the error gracefully over here.  (also tried unsetting WEBGUI_CONFIG; that also failed gracefully as it should)22:37
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--- Day changed Fri Aug 15 2014
starsoftYes, I had exported WEBGUI_CONFIG as described.  I'll try again with different values.02:00
starsoftDoes it matter which directory I'm in when I run wgd?  Or where wgd is installed?02:06
starsoftRunning 'wgd reset' with no value for WEBGUI_CONFIG gives 'No WebGUI config file available'02:08
starsoftRunning it with either the correct or garbage values for WEBGUI_CONFIG gives the rethrow error.02:10
starsoftI'm off to bed now; I'll try again tomorrow.02:13
beppustarsoft: I've always run wgd from the root of the webgui project, but I think it doesn't matter where you run it from as long as WEBGUI_CONFIG has the right value.02:34
@scrottieI seem to recall a problem where it would get confused about the etc directory if the WebGUI.conf.orig file got removed or renamed from it, but I think I remember that haarg fixed that.03:18
@scrottieI changed all of the eval's to do's in a fork and sent haarg a pull request.  that's the only way I could see what was actually failing when things failed.03:19
@scrottieI could dig that up again.03:20
beppuscrottie: Here's a rough draft of a blog post I want to make on the webgui8 blog:  https://gist.github.com/beppu/c124903b78fb4d1fcd1204:06
beppuI recall davebaker and starsoft were unsure of how to contribute, so I thought this would help.  It's a short howto on how to fork AlliumCepa/webgui and track upstream changes while developing in your own branch.04:08
@scrottieI kind of wish github had shell accounts available too, so you could ssh in to a machine and have your repo right there.04:13
@scrottiein addition to all of the other stuff they do.04:13
beppuThey're probably trying to avoid a security headache.04:14
beppuIf you let people ssh in, they'll probably want to start running the code there, too.  People would abuse the fuck out of that.04:16
@scrottieWhat could be better?  That and my more continious than continious integration server, and you're rocking and rolling.04:17
@scrottiehrm, I wonder how many porn sites are hosted on github pages...04:17
beppuscrottie: Any objections to posting the contents of that gist to the webgui blog?04:19
@scrottiesome minor edits and an image04:19
@scrottiehrm.  a WebGUI markdown asset could be handy.04:20
@scrottiethought I suppose you could just paste the HTML version of that into the HTML view of the rich text editor04:20
beppuThat's what I was going to do.04:20
@scrottiethanks for writing that04:20
@scrottiethe former (asset) or latter (paste)?04:20
beppuTrying to be pragmatic here.04:21
@scrottieone thing at a time.04:21
@scrottiethat could be used to update the main README.md too, or the "how to contribute" stuff and that merged into another .md in the repo and linked to.04:24
beppuwe need some css!04:25
@scrottieI took a Java Associate certification test this morning, btw.04:25
beppuI hope you passed.04:25
@scrottieyeah, I did, thanks.04:25
@scrottiethat's just one fewer thing to think about now.04:25
beppuI play with Clojure from time to time, and the jvm startup time is a buzzkill.04:26
bepputhe stack traces can get gnarly too.04:26
@scrottiein theory, the JVM is a very simple machine and it could be easily implemented light weight and lean, but in reality, a huge amount of the Java library is implemented natively and you need that to run.04:27
beppuscrottie: How can I edit the css of the blog post I just made?04:31
beppuI want the code blocks to look distinct from the prose.04:31
@scrottiedoes that give you an edit screen?04:32
beppulet me try04:32
@scrottieI think I was trying to get you access to that before but I keep getting version tags locked04:32
beppuNo, permission denied.04:32
beppuWho was the guy who was helping us w/ webgui.org a few weeks ago?04:32
@scrottiehang on04:33
@scrottiehttp://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?func=edit is actually the right one04:34
@scrottiecan you access that one?04:34
@scrottiethe CSS is in the Metadata tab04:34
@scrottiehere's the fussy bit...04:35
@scrottieafter you save changes to that, you need to go here:  http://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?op=manageVersions   and click "Commit" on the version tag with your name on it.04:35
@scrottieotherwise it doesn't go live and other people are locked from editing it.04:36
@scrottieusually sites aren't set up like that.  that might change eventually.04:36
beppuok, give me a few minutes.  i'm gonna edit the css now.04:36
@scrottiesure thing.04:36
beppuI get permission denied for the op=manageVersions link.04:39
@scrottiegrr.  okay.04:39
beppuCan you commit it for me?04:39
beppuI just added some rules for .blogPost pre 04:39
@scrottielet me see if I can make it autocommit for you, in that case.04:40
@scrottieokay, that might work.  changes you make and save editing that template should show up instantly now.04:42
beppuLet me give that a try...04:42
beppuThis time when I tried to save, it said permission denied.04:49
* scrottie sighs04:49
beppuI wonder if the content saved but the commit failed.04:49
@scrottiewhy can't the UI be just like the API?04:49
bepputry to see if there's something that needs to be committed and commit it if so.04:50
beppuAlso, is there any way to edit blog posts after they've been published?04:54
@scrottieyeah, if edit is on, there should be an edit link to them (and everything else) in the index view04:55
beppuI see no such links.04:55
beppuI have the ability to add and unsubscribe.04:56
beppu(I mostly want to get rid of the header that says "using git to contribute to webgui 8" since the title says the same thing already.)04:56
beppuMaybe I'll just leave an issue for elnino on github.04:57
@scrottiesorry, I'm just being slow04:58
@scrottieis there a link in the top right that says "Turn Admin On!"?04:59
beppunot for me04:59
@scrottieDoes it say "Click here to log in"?04:59
@scrottiecan't imagine you got logged out04:59
@scrottie(have I mentioned that I'm really bad at the admin UI?)05:00
beppuI'm logged in as beppu.  (that's how I made the post in the first place).05:00
@scrottieone minute.05:00
@scrottiepor favor.05:00
beppuWell, I'm even worse.  :P05:00
@scrottieyou can really bleed people to death with these fine grained permission controls =P05:00
beppuWhere's sudo when you need it?05:01
@scrottiethere's a group just for the "turn admin on" permission.05:01
@scrottieokay, reload the page and see if there's a "turn admin on" link?  and if so, click it.05:01
beppuit's there.  clicking05:02
@scrottiethat might make committing versions tags work too.  I need to look at the workflow for them though...05:02
beppuI'll try http://www.webgui.org/staff-blog/staff-blog-thread?op=manageVersions again.05:03
@scrottiecool, yes05:03
bepputhat worked too05:04
@scrottieokay, then I don't have to look at the workflow05:04
@scrottie(which involves looking at the blog asset to see which commit workflow it uses)05:04
@scrottieI'm pretty sure wG is Turing Complete05:04
beppuOk,.. I'm gonna head home now.05:05
beppuhardly anyone at the office today.05:05
@scrottiecool.  have a good evening.  catch ya later.05:05
beppuDid I make the blog posts too skinny for your taste?05:06
beppuI set the width of .blogPost to 55em or so to prevent the text from getting too wide.05:06
@scrottielooks fine to me05:07
beppucool.  going home....05:07
@scrottieI'm surprised cut and paste worked as well as it did05:07
@scrottiecatch ya later!05:07
@scrottieand thanks again for that!05:07
beppuI also made the fork image you added link directly to https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/fork in case someone tries to click it.  (It'll do the right thing.)07:00
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@scrottiepeople seem to be nervous about how to fork things on github.  they think it is going to be scary, so I just wanted to tell them that it's just a button press.07:06
beppuYeah, forking is relatively harmless.07:15
beppuI think the harder part is to remember to keep track of what's happening upstream and merge that in periodically.07:15
beppudanny_mk needed to do that for his admin work.07:16
@scrottieyeah.  I should probably give away commit bits recklessly like Audrey did/does.07:16
beppuFor the git-challenged, that may make things easier.07:16
beppuIn danny_mk's case, it's probably a good idea.07:17
beppuThe thing about pugs...  it was written in Haskell which has a steep learning curve.  That limited who could participate considerably.07:19
@scrottiestill, I like the easy commit bits.07:19
@scrottieI like that philosophy.07:19
@scrottiepugs was a lot more appealing of a project than parrot even if Haskell does have a learning curve.07:31
beppuI agree.  It's too bad audreyt stopped.07:32
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@scrottiecurses ANSI art doesn't seem to work over ssh, at least from my system.  hrm.07:33
beppuBlock chars have been pretty hit or miss for me.07:33
@scrottieoh, no, it's screen that's screwing it up.07:34
beppuexport TERM=xterm-256color and try again.07:34
beppuI notice perlDreamer (aka colink) submitted a lot of the bugs in the bug tracker.  http://search.cpan.org/~colink/07:41
beppuIs he aware of your kickstarter?07:42
@scrottieyeah, he congratulated me on it.07:42
@scrottieI worked with him pretty closely while I was at PB and on contract jobs with them.07:42
beppuIs he stil doing anything webgui-related?07:43
@scrottiesome client work now and then, as far as I know.07:43
@scrottiehe's kind of the unit testing/bug fixing mother superior07:44
@scrottiehe was in charge of client support including fixes07:44
@scrottiehe policed all commits for unit tests07:44
beppuThere are a lot of bugs left to fix.07:46
@scrottiemost of the ones marked "critical/blocking" are not in fact critical and blocking.07:53
@scrottieDoug was one of those programmers who couldn't really let go of a project.  It was never good enough.07:53
@scrottiehttps://gist.github.com/scrottie/039e4688e83f2240f178 ... I started writing a TPF proposal before JT stepped in.  =head3 Beta Release has a list of things that actually need to be fixed.07:54
@scrottieI should update the tracker to match since the project is go.07:54
beppuPlease do.07:55
beppuactually...  that gist is easier to read than the webgui bugtracker.  <-- i am not fond of that bug tracker.07:58
beppuI always hit back and it takes me out of the bug tracker.07:58
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@scrottieaside from the bugs, I kind of like the bug tracker.  at least its minimal.  I've had to use too many things like bugzilla and RT that are way too heavy weight, I think.07:59
@scrottieI should update the bug tracker anyway.07:59
@scrottieGoogle isn't letting slowass.net send mail because I've sent an "unusual large volume of email" today.  FML.08:00
@scrottieso installer bug reports don't make it back to me.08:00
beppuYou spammer!  ;)08:00
beppuHow many mails did you send?08:01
@scrottielet me see08:01
@scrottieabout 8008:03
@scrottiemostly TBAG stuff08:03
beppuWas it a mass mailing, or did you write 80 distinct emails?08:04
@scrottie80 distinct emails.08:04
beppugod damn.08:04
@scrottienot even a busy day.08:04
@scrottielots of project management type stuff.08:05
beppugoogle's mail software should be smart enough to realize you're not spamming.08:05
@scrottieI honestly don't think Google is very good at spam control.08:06
@scrottiethey improved on previous efforts, but I don't think by that much.08:07
@scrottie... while asking Google for help08:30
* scrottie sighs08:30
@scrottieAngular apps barf in ways that loose everything you've typed and they do it far too often.08:31
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/7f8dbcee25832733925401f2f528ba1e0d27a2f710:42
webguicommitswebgui/master 7f8dbce Scott Walters: installer: dump a non url encoded error log to console #1010:42
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E-man1982Hi, I was looking for a way to change the 404 page in webgui12:33
E-man1982I'm new at this CMS, afraid can't find it12:33
@scrottiehrm.  404 page.12:33
@scrottieI think it's a setting.  do you have wgd installed?12:34
@scrottieah.  there it is.  do Turn Admin On, then look for Settings in the Admin Console.12:35
E-man1982Ah...OK Don't have the settings option. Probably don't have enough rights12:37
@scrottiemaybe not.  is it your system?  you might have to turn the UI level up.12:37
E-man1982On admin tab 12:37
E-man1982No I'm a lowly contributor12:37
E-man1982will contact our support...12:38
@scrottiesure thing!  have a good one.12:38
E-man1982so far for my first  IRC experience :)12:39
@scrottieheh.  welcome to IRC then!12:39
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@scrottieThe following packages have unmet dependencies:13:04
@scrottie libmysqlclient18-dev : Depends: libmysqlclient18 (= 5.5.35-rel33.0-611.wheezy)13:04
@scrottieE: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.13:04
@scrottieI don't know if it's because I just did a dist-upgrade (which amazingly didn't completely hose the machine) or if it's related to Percona supporting the stable version of Debian and this one being testing or unstable or something, or if I installed something else, or what.13:05
@scrottiebut Percona is not currently installing on this thing.13:05
@scrottiemaybe MariaDB is a better choice.13:18
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/2b6d8b7e6510020dd67ee5160773c5a83205614713:28
webguicommitswebgui/master 2b6d8b7 Scott Walters: better diagnostics #10...13:28
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@scrottieheya BartJol.20:34
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/cc1ff35d0ee47a6a8c32029b6a197dc7fe765c7713:40
webguicommitswebgui/master cc1ff35 Scott Walters: Try MariaDB instead of Percona #10...13:40
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/10ccfc14c2880282a01443180b627c409bbef3fb13:41
webguicommitswebgui/master 10ccfc1 Scott Walters: Try plain vanilla MySQL for Debian #10...13:41
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sany_okCan anyone please suggest me how to enable debug mode, I tried in the settings without success16:14
sany_okshell a template have some macro to output debug info?17:59
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@scrottiedo you have wgd?21:01
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/e9fa4329fc2738f1e5e54e3084c0ea5ac163ec4b23:32
webguicommitswebgui/master e9fa432 Scott Walters: unfinished - add a mode to run() where it relays STDIN #10...23:32
@scrottieI think I'm going to back to working on the CentOS support for the installer for a while.  I'm getting really tired of Debian shitting itself and having to be blown away.23:33
@scrottiethis thing makes Windows NT 3.51 look like a pillar of stability.23:33
@scrottieI got some milage out of editing /var/lib/dpkg/status directly and telling it that wedged packages weren't installed, then re-installing and un-installing them, but then it does things like try to fire up mysqld twice while installing it and wedge against itself23:35
@scrottieno idea how it came up with that one23:35
--- Day changed Sun Aug 17 2014
sany_okscrottie, may be my wrapper for apt/dpkg/other tools can help06:04
sany_okIt can do some things to help with dpkg system06:05
sany_okcase $Action in06:05
sany_ok( info | search | large | install | install_listed | install_sid | remove | purge | purge2 | sections | file | best | installed | reinstall | verify | save | restore | search | deps | upgrade | extract | 2tar | scripts | config | hold | list_installed | add_key | waste | purge_waste | reconfigure | upgrade_remote | get_debs | edit )06:05
beppusany_ok: I tried turning on debug mode via Settings, and it gave me a nice transparent black sidebar in the left with a lot of info:  http://i.imgur.com/SgSUvLI.png07:38
beppuI had to reload the page for it to show up.07:38
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beppuhttp://i.imgur.com/SgSUvLI.png <- debug mode enabled via settings07:40
sany_okbeppu, there was an unexpected route for my webgui host in my network, that is why my single IP did not work earlier08:30
sany_okBut I still do not see such nice debug interface like you08:31
sany_okmy debug output displays at the bottom without a bar, and only forms and queries are shown08:31
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sany_okstill the same debug output on a demo site with a default theme09:07
sany_okeven if a browser restarted, iceweasel or chrome - tried both09:09
sany_okyou can see it at: http://demo.aulix.com09:11
sany_okenabled for all
sany_okoh, I guess you have v8, while I have v7 :)09:14
sany_okPlack looks very nice, and API something like a few of ASP.NET09:28
sany_okIt seems my dnsmasq resolves to TLD if uptier cannot resolve the address09:43
sany_okit added unexpected direct route to aulix.com09:43
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sany_okPlease let me know, how can I diagnose mail not being sent:11:18
sany_ok1) Enabled debug log both on website and in /var/log/webgui.log at debug level11:18
sany_ok2) Submitting some data using contact form11:18
sany_ok3) I see a corresponding record being added to the mailQueue according to the logs11:18
sany_ok4) I select * from mailQueue, and there is no such record11:18
sany_ok5) If webgui.log level set to error, it is empty after form submitted11:18
sany_ok6) There is no corresponding e-mail sent, mail logs are empty, no e-mail received11:18
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@scrottie<sany_ok> 4) I select * from mailQueue, and there is no such record12:48
@scrottiethat means that it was sent.12:48
@scrottieno idea.12:49
sany_okwill try to increase logging on my postfix12:58
sany_okIs it possible to debug WebGUI under IDE?12:58
sany_okFor example Padre or may be something better?12:59
@scrottieI've never tried Padre.  I don't know if or how that would work.12:59
@scrottieresponding to your email too12:59
@scrottieyou need a support contract ;)12:59
sany_okHow much does it cost?12:59
@scrottieI have no idea.  you'd jave to talk to tavis@plainblack.com or someone.13:00
@scrottieer, have to13:00
sany_okmost likely I will not afford, I earn only $10K/y net13:00
sany_okand sometimes $30/h in the evening (freelancing dotnet)13:01
@scrottiewe need to get you more clients then!13:01
@scrottiemore customers.13:01
sany_okI am going to install vesta CP, then deploy billing13:02
* scrottie fights with Unix IO13:02
sany_okwithout that the hosting is just to share Linode costs right now13:02
sany_okDo you run UNIX (not linux)?13:03
sany_okmay be BSD13:04
@scrottieI used to run a lot of BSD13:04
@scrottiethat's a long story13:04
@scrottieFreeBSD 5 totally fucked things up13:04
@scrottieNetBSD Foundation got hijacked by the NetBSD Project (or the other way around; commercial arm took over and ruined everything)13:04
sany_okI found Linux is the best OS for me, and VB.net the best programming language again for me :)13:05
@scrottieOpenBSD is nice for servers, but they refuse to allow known buggy code in, so they never added ACPI support that I know of.13:05
sany_okwith ZFS it is a cake now13:05
@scrottiemaybe they finally did.13:05
@scrottieno, Linux stuff13:05
@scrottieworking on the installer for Debian at the moment13:05
@scrottieLinux is really, really fragile13:06
* sany_ok run Debian since etch13:06
sany_okWhat do you mean under fragile? kernel stability?13:07
@scrottiethat too, but mostly the design13:07
@scrottieudevd malfunctions13:07
@scrottiekernel trying to run userland tools not included in the kernel source and panic'ing when they aren't there13:07
sany_okit is a hacker design, not so cannonical like UNIX, but it just works :)13:07
@scrottieit doesn't just work.  too fragile.13:08
@scrottietoo complicated.  not elegant.13:08
sany_okwhen we choose right stable components it is a rock solid13:08
@scrottiemissing the Unix philosophy.13:08
@scrottiefewer and fewer understand the Unix philosophy these days.13:08
@scrottieeveryone says that, but I worked at a large ISP and got daily crash reports.13:09
@scrottieLinux crashes more than Windows.13:09
sany_okmay be because its development is not centralized, it is more like a bazar13:09
sany_okactually I did not see Debian stable crashes recently for over a year already13:09
@scrottiea bazaar can still have a style.  Theo/OpenBSD has a very different style.13:09
sany_okit is rocksolid for me13:09
sany_okI agree, it is just like it is13:10
@scrottieit crashes all of the time for me.  and things *break* and are hard to fix, or I have to reinstall.13:10
sany_okdo you use stable?13:10
@scrottieI just had to re-install Debian after adding/removing mysql too many times, and interrupting it.13:10
sany_okThere is a jerk with MySQL reinstalling13:10
sany_okI have made a script sometimes13:10
@scrottiewheezy/sid on the laptop13:10
sany_oknot sure where it is now13:10
@scrottie7.6 on the test machine I'm working on the installer on13:11
sany_okwheezy is very stable for me on kernetl 3.1313:11
@scrottieheh, completely different format13:11
@scrottieeveryone lies about OS stability.13:11
@scrottiethe Windows people used to swear that Windows never crashes.  13:11
sany_okI am honest, I could not find anything better13:11
sany_okfor myself13:11
@scrottiethey told this lie and forgot that I had been standing behind them when it crashed for them.13:11
@scrottieI want to run QNX.13:12
@scrottie*that's* stable.13:12
@scrottieslowass.net runs Slackware13:12
sany_okI installed my Debian only once in 2006 when Fedora failed to upgrade, it was the last straw of my tolerance to Fedora13:13
@scrottieFedora sucks too13:13
sany_okthen always only upgraded it, sometimes tricky, but always possible13:13
@scrottieLinux once crashed so hard for me that it clobbered video attribute memory (video)13:13
sany_okQNX is more stable for sure13:14
sany_okbut it has not 30.000 debs in a repo13:14
sany_okDebian is the best thing of stability and amount of software at the same time13:14
@scrottiefirst one is an example of "fragile"13:15
@scrottielinux wanted to run /lib/udev/mtp-probe.  I didn't have it on my system.  boom, crash.13:15
sany_okI see, agree some kerner versions are not stable, for example with relativelly easy things like bluetooth13:15
sany_okfor example default kernel 3.2 is NOT stable13:16
@scrottieon BSD, to upgrade, I could download the latest .tgz's, uncompress them, and then reboot whenever I felt like and wanted to load the new kernel.13:16
sany_okBut I mostly talk about the distro, not only about the kernel13:16
@scrottieI could just write the newer system over top of the old system, run ldconfig, and everything worked fine.13:16
@scrottie*not* fragile.13:16
@scrottieI hate apt with a passion, too.13:17
@scrottiegod only knows why I'm working on an installer that uses apt.13:17
sany_okmay be it is more expansive to do such agile systems like you describe13:17
sany_okbut Linux looks like a best deal for my tasks, especially Debian13:18
@scrottieI had a FreeBSD 2.2.7 nameserver that was up for 10 years13:18
sany_okmay be for a please or rest I would play BSD, I have a very few experience with it13:18
@scrottiealso saw a BSDi system with a 10 year uptime, with a crazy high load average13:18
sany_okbut for recent packages I need to go Linux13:18
@scrottiewell, they ruined FreeBSD and NetBSD13:18
sany_okand to be smart I need Debian13:18
@scrottieslowass.net ran OpenBSD when it was still a Sparc 10 but I moved it to Linode and they don't have OpenBSD.13:19
sany_okMay be they do to bring people to Linux, corporations do not care about canonical unless they earn from this13:19
sany_okI mean force people to migrate to Linux, by reducing BSD budgets, not providing recent packages13:20
@scrottieno, BSD just never took off like Linux did13:20
@scrottieI think there are psychological reasons13:20
sany_okWhen choosing Linux I just saw to repo13:21
@scrottie386BSD was available, stable, and complete before Linux was released13:21
@scrottieand coherent13:21
sany_okAlso corps promote Linux to get more people - potential future contributers of employees13:21
@scrottieLinux is still a mess of random pieces of things that each half way screw up re-implementing the original13:21
@scrottie... but people got excited about Linux, not BSD13:21
@scrottieI think they felt like it was "thiers"13:21
sany_okI do not argue about BSD excellance over Linux, but it is just a business13:22
@scrottieI think Linux took off *because* it was using everyone's open source projects... initd, getty, etc, etc were all freeware programs.13:22
sany_okIt costs many millions to develop all this Linux soft13:22
@scrottiethey got the freeware authors to buy in to Linux by using their software.13:22
@scrottiewhereas BSD just kind of "feel out of the sky"13:22
@scrottiethis was a long time ago... mid/late 90's13:22
sany_okIt is like WebGUI vs PHP toys13:23
@scrottieLinux pulled ahead then and even though BSD was better at least until FreeBSD 4, not many people used it.13:23
@scrottienot many people use Postgres instead of MySQL either.13:23
@scrottiethe best technology usually doesn't win.13:23
sany_okhopefully WebGUI will survive13:23
sany_okLong life WebGUI13:23
@scrottiewe'll see =)13:23
@scrottieI remember when all software was written for Solaris/AIX/Ultrix and people had to change it to get it to work on Linux13:24
sany_okI have noticed that often perl based software is the best13:24
sany_okFor example ASSP, WebGUI13:24
sany_okmany more13:24
sany_okmost likely it is an old school from UNIX13:24
@scrottiefor some reason, there are a lot of smart Perl programmers.  that's what *really* makes Perl fun... the people.13:24
sany_okreally good developers13:24
@scrottiebut Ruby is doing a lot of that too.  smart people.  good modules, good APIs.13:25
@scrottieawesome software.13:25
sany_okGood developer can do good things in any language, it is just a matter of how difficult it is for him13:25
@scrottiebut if you are a good developer, you get to pick which language you want to work in.13:26
@scrottieand a lot of smart people picked Ruby and did awesome stuff with it.13:26
sany_okWhen I program in any language except VB.NET, I think about language, in VB.NET I just talk like in a general natural language13:26
sany_okthough I know C++, JavaScript13:27
@scrottieI want to program GI1600 =)  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cuttle-Cart-3-Software-on-DVD-Micro-SD-Card-Adapt-Intellivision-Rocks-CD-/171420089855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e96efdff13:27
@scrottieI have a lot of fun writing stuff in Perl, but I also miss programming in other things.  I used to do a lot of 6502 assembly, and then started working on a project in that again, and worked on that a lot recently (until this kickstarter!)13:28
@scrottieI miss LPC a lot13:28
@scrottie(now Pike, but mostly fun because of the environment)13:28
@scrottiehttps://github.com/scrottie/2600lava <-- 650213:28
sany_okI only tried x86 asm - so called residents appearing from nowhere in DOS :)13:29
sany_okyes ;)13:29
@scrottiex86 assembly is terrible, but 8080 is actually really nice13:29
@scrottieZ80/8080 is a way better chip than the 650213:29
sany_okNow prefer high level languages13:29
@scrottieI want to learn Verilog13:30
sany_okMay be MS will do really visual prolog, there is a synonim non MS product13:30
@scrottieI just got a Java certification13:30
@scrottieJava is boring as heck13:30
sany_oknot more than a C# :)13:30
@scrottieC# is more fun.  people at least write games in C#13:31
sany_okin Java world Scala looks promising13:31
@scrottiemost of the humbleindiebundle stuff is C#.  13:31
@scrottiemost "indie" games are C#13:31
@scrottieKerbal Space Program13:31
sany_okI tried C# several times, I can write it almost the same as VB.NET, the same dotnet libraries, but it is a waste of time, because VB.net is a time saver13:32
sany_okMy vb programs work fine in Linux13:33
sany_okFor example:13:33
sany_okThey can run on mono or wine13:33
@scrottieI am probably not going to write indie games in VB.NET and that's my interest in C#, so not interest in VB.NET13:35
@scrottieI did used to do some ASP/VB way back when though13:35
@scrottieand AtariBASIC long before that13:35
sany_okBackup2DVD is a free program to write to several blanks one after another with data redundancy13:35
@scrottieBASIC is okay.13:35
sany_okI tried ATARI too, also MS GW on DOS :)13:36
sany_okVB.net has better IDE than anything else, though it is the same VIsual Studio13:37
@scrottieI had a lot of fun with my Atari =)13:37
sany_okBulderdash game, do you remember?13:37
@scrottieyeah.  I love that game.13:38
@scrottiesomeone recently ported it to the Atari 260013:38
sany_okI would like to try it on  a Linux emulator13:38
@scrottie*amazing* feat of programming13:38
sany_okThe best game of my childhood13:39
@scrottieI did a presentation at YAPC the previous year with a mash-up of Super Mario Bros and Boulderdash, written in Perl and 650213:39
@scrottielast levels are *impossible*13:39
sany_okWow, Perl !  interesting :)13:39
@scrottiehuh, they lost the first half of it13:40
@scrottieI showed a whole bunch of stuff and the Boulderdash mash-up was probably at the start13:40
@scrottiehuh, and I never put the code up13:42
sany_okDid you do this just for fun?13:43
@scrottieoh, wait, yes I did put the code up... https://gist.github.com/scrottie/277793513:44
@scrottielike I said... I have fun writing Perl ;)13:44
sany_okUh, a lot of code!13:45
sany_okIs it a manuall write or some translation?13:45
@scrottietranslated a lot of SMB3 to Perl13:46
@scrottiejumping/running 13:46
sany_okI see13:46
@scrottieand collision detection13:46
@scrottieI should have used Acme::6502 instead of translating13:46
@scrottietranslating was *hard*13:46
@scrottieyou should be able to download it and play it13:46
@scrottienot many levels right now13:47
@scrottieneeds more13:47
@scrottiethen when I started working on my Atari 2600 games, I did use Acme::6502 to write unit tests for it13:47
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/f12ce7c44e5c1aa4ba6ee8847114ebab695e85bc13:49
webguicommitswebgui/master f12ce7c root: rewrite the child process IO copying code in run() #10...13:49
@scrottieI love that.13:49
@scrottiehttps://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/blob/master/installer/webgui_installer.pl#L496 ... on down for the next 200 or so lines... that's a lot less fun13:49
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sany_okDo you think https://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/debug.html#Interactive_mod_perl_Debugging will work to debug WebGUI v7?15:16
sany_okI guess15:26
sany_okis the best15:26
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openbsd_newbieanyone here? 21:14
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--- Day changed Mon Aug 18 2014
@scrottiewow, that was odd.04:58
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sany_okGood morning06:59
sany_okDoes komodo works well in remote debugging mode with mod_perl?07:00
sany_okDoes komodo work07:00
@scrottieno idea.07:29
@scrottiemod_perl makes it harder.07:48
@scrottieone option would be to debug under "plebgui"07:48
@scrottiethat's 7 but with plack07:49
@scrottieso it runs as a normal command line app.07:49
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sany_okkomodo declares remote debugging is present, not sure how reliable it is and even do not know which page shall I debug, because WebGUI most likely has some time of a router for human readable URLs09:28
sany_okmay be /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI.pm09:30
+BartJolheya scrottie sorry, wasn't really online09:42
@scrottieautoreconnect.  typical.  well, hello.09:42
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/e8b51105b8829deb0f95249d3cfb5bf5358a3a7b12:13
webguicommitswebgui/master e8b5110 Scott Walters: many installer fixes for Debian #10...12:13
@scrottiewhen debugging perl apps on mod_perl, I use gdb =|12:16
@scrottiesany_ok, any luck?12:16
sany_okI did not try yet13:11
sany_okgdb, is it text mode? I am comfortable when it is an IDE like Visual Studio13:11
sany_okI am not sure which is initial page for debugging WG?13:12
@scrottiegdb is also a C debugger, not a Perl debugger.13:24
@scrottiedepends if you're debugging queueing mail or sending it.  sending it is an operation.  look in  /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Operation and the config file to figure out which one and where.13:25
@scrottieor maybe not13:25
sany_okSending seems to be a workflow13:25
@scrottie# "emailOverride" : "joe@example.com",13:26
@scrottiemake sure you don't have that set13:26
@scrottiein your config file13:26
@scrottie# "emailToLog" : "1",13:26
sany_okno, I've check the config many times13:26
@scrottieor that13:26
sany_okAt the beginning I would like to become aware overal how to debug WebGUI13:26
sany_oknot just e-mail13:26
sany_okto be able to fix any minor bugs13:26
@scrottienot sure exactly how spectre causes WebGUI::Workflow::Activity::SendQueuedMailMessages to be run, but in general, spectre connects to the WebGUI and does a POST or a GET13:27
sany_okby myself13:27
@scrottieadd more debug statements and restart it.13:27
@scrottieor run plebgui under a GUI or text Perl debugger.13:27
sany_oksince mail queue is being cleared, it is spectre13:27
@scrottieprobably.  not necessarily.13:27
sany_okthen most likely I even do not need to debug mod_perl right now13:27
@scrottiespectre takes a minute to get around to delivering messages and clearing the table.13:28
sany_okjust spectre13:28
@scrottieso since it goes empty immediately, I think there is another problem.13:28
sany_okMy host have a low load13:28
sany_okwell, I would like to learn debugging WG anyway, even not depending on mail problem, but most likely I will begin with it later in about 2-3 weeks13:30
sany_okDid most developers use only text mode tools when developing WebGUI? Is not IDE more comfortable?13:31
@scrottieI think everyone used vi except for Paul Driver who used emacs.13:31
@scrottieso yes.13:31
sany_okI generally use text mode joe only for bash13:31
sany_okall old school I guess13:32
@scrottievi is preferred by most programmers working on Unix.  it's very powerful.13:32
sany_okit looks like some editors on x8080 computers13:32
@scrottieyes, because text looks like text =P13:33
sany_okBut I began with Turbo shell, like Turbo C++, Borland Pascal13:33
sany_okso I like joe more13:33
sany_okalso there is a  fullTurboVision based editor13:33
sany_okbut I do not use it13:33
sany_okbtw, do translators from perl to compiled languages exist?13:36
sany_okto C, C++13:36
@scrottiekind of.  http://search.cpan.org/~rurban/B-C-1.51/lib/B/C.pm13:36
sany_okI have read perl6 will run on its own VM parrot13:37
sany_okit will be a bytecode like JVM13:37
@scrottieand it might even be considered production quality some day.13:37
sany_okmost likely a native compiler will appear for parrot bytecode13:38
@scrottiePerl 6 also targets the JVM.13:38
sany_okAnd DotNet13:38
@scrottienot that I've heard of.  where did you read that?13:38
sany_okfor JVM native compiler already exist13:38
sany_okon perl6 website13:39
sany_okI would like to have a good perl and prolog directly in Visual Studio13:40
sany_okto compile to DotNet, then run on Mono on Linux13:40
sany_okAbout DotNet parrot:13:41
sany_ok2.8.2 or later is recommended for best performance; you should use RUN_CLR=mono-sgen in this case. 2.10 (latest stable) is also tested.13:41
@scrottiehasn't been touched in 8 months13:42
sany_okIf niecza works with both CPAN and DotNet libraries it will be a bomb language13:42
sany_okfor small command line utilities13:42
sany_okIt has very slow development, I thought it is dead at all in 201313:43
sany_okFrom DotNet I can run iKVM with any java code, so parrot will run too at least JVM version13:44
@scrottieI need to add startup files for Debian13:45
@scrottiein the installer.13:45
@scrottiefor nginx and webgui.13:45
@scrottieI added startup files for CentOS before.13:45
@scrottieI'm not stuck on that task, but if you wanted to help, it would be a nice small task for you =)13:46
sany_okI can help with tasks on my roadmap if they what you are interested too, you could give your advices13:47
sany_okI did not work with nginx ever13:47
sany_okonly apache213:47
@scrottiewhich tasks are on your roadmap?  I have to do the work outlined for the Kickstarter.13:48
sany_okA few ( my roadmap primary in my head :)13:48
sany_okIntegration of WebGUI with OrchardCMS (Microsoft employees do a thing running on Linux and Postgres)13:49
sany_okIntegrate my billing with WebGUI users13:50
@scrottieI can only help with that a very little by giving you tips and pointers.13:50
sany_okrewrite provisioning scripts in VB.net (now in bash -difficult to debug) and integrate into my billing13:50
sany_oksure, just advices where to find something in pl files, which to debug, or best way to extend13:51
sany_okMy billing shall migrate to Orchard at first, then integrate with WG hosting13:52
sany_okRight now it is custom dotnet v2, will migrate to MVC Orchard13:52
sany_okAnd user base shall be the same with WebGUI13:52
sany_okI guess Postgress DB links13:53
sany_okI am going to use WG for page which can be done without programming and orchard when programming is needed13:54
sany_okbecause all CMSs suck compared to WG in terms of CMS features even Orchard13:54
sany_okbut Orchard is a good base for my own programming13:55
sany_okAdd DevExpress grids to my billing on Orchard13:57
sany_okwill WG sometimes later run on perl6 ?14:12
haargperl 6 is an entirely separate language.  you'd have to write everything from scratch.14:16
sany_okmay be autotranslators will appear later which highlight fragments for manual rewrite14:28
sany_oklike VB6->VB.net14:29
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BartJol1you're a month early scrottie17:28
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scrottieI'm a month late20:58
scrottieon getting started20:58
scrottieor two20:58
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BartJol1scrottie: the "yarr", talk like a pirate day is the 19th of spetember11:05
scrottieand I ain't be fingered for no land lubbering boy and hornswaggled again like last time!  no sirree they ain't be catching me this time.  I'lla be ready, matie.11:07
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/ce144ff5b67d5998c80a44a8a8f4765d37693a3814:30
webguicommitswebgui/master ce144ff Scott Walters: verbosity, install path, and path to self fixes #10...14:30
scrottiesudo installing is temporarily disabled.  I'm probably not going to fix it.  someone else can.  non-root installs are probably a better feature.15:00
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starsoftOK, I've started again on a brandy new Wheezy VM.  I've forked the AlliumCepa/webgui repo, cloned that into the VM, and run "git remote add upstream https://github.com/alliumcepa/webgui.git" and "git fetch upstream".  Which branch do I need to checkout to start playing with WebGUI8?21:17
starsoft"brandy new" ?  I wish.21:24
beppustarsoft: You should be in the master branch by default, and that's a fine branch to start on.21:28
beppuscrottie seems to be doing all his work in master.21:29
* scrottie nods23:29
scrottiemaster is wG823:29
scrottie7 is in other branches, but those are behind github.com/plainblack/webgui.23:30
scrottieI should open a ticket for that.23:30
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starsoftOK, thanks.  23:45
scrottiethe installer is working pretty well for me on Debian right now.  I need to revisit CentOS.23:49
scrottieI haven't updated the README about that yet.  should probably do that.  that would make it easier to get started with 8.23:49
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starsoftAt the moment I'm working through the instructions in README.md.  Hmmm.   testEnvironment.pl has just failed on installing XML::Simple for want of XML::SAX::Expat.00:22
scrottiethe installer would fail on that too.00:23
starsoftIt's getting further now after running 'apt-get install libxml-parser-perl'00:34
scrottiehrm.  00:45
scrottieprobably XML::SAX::Expat failing for want of the Unix library.00:46
starsoftNow it's failed on Imager::File::PNG, and I'm going to bed.  More tomorrow.00:47
scrottieokay, thanks for the report.  looking in to that now.00:48
scrottiewaiting to install it or failing because nothing installed it?00:48
scrottieI see Imager::File::PNG in sbin/testEnvironment.pl, so it should be trying to install it at least.00:48
scrottiethe installer does install libexpat1-dev.00:53
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/compare/ce144ff5b67d...aec82fbfc63a01:10
webguicommitswebgui/master ebcab8c Scott Walters: tell the user when we're using an existing webgui user #1001:10
webguicommitswebgui/master aec82fb Scott Walters: update install docs in the README.md to indicate that the source install instructions need you to figure out on your own which system packages you need for your particular OS as...01:10
scrottiehopefully those instructions are more helpful, in addition to explaining how to use the installer script.01:11
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/39ef55bdacbbe805115d7bc119cbf49cd902a03807:58
webguicommitswebgui/master 39ef55b Scott Walters: make the script to blow away an installation for testing, cleanup.sh, a bit safer07:58
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starsoftscrottie: re Image::File::PNG, I've pasted the error message at http://pastebin.com/xT9EzQt910:44
scrottieokay, that makes sense.10:57
scrottiethe source install instructions didn't tell you to find and install the system libraries the perl modules need.10:58
scrottiebut you do have to.10:58
scrottieproblem is, it's different for each system.10:58
starsoftI couldn't work out (after trying for at least 30 seconds :) what I needed to install when it complained about YAML.  I'll try a bit harder.11:00
scrottiewhat did you need to install?11:01
starsoftMeanwhile, this morning I'm trying the installer.  It's just failed on 'useradd webgui --shell bash', and has sent you an email about it.11:03
scrottiegah.  Debian?  which version?  the bug reporter thing should really include that.11:05
scrottie"useradd: invalid shell 'bash'"11:05
scrottieoh, invalid here too.11:05
scrottieI guess I just assumed that would work.  recent change.11:05
scrottieshould be fixed now.11:08
webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/4f204c62cdd784a9563fa067fb4ceab3ec8eb4d311:08
webguicommitswebgui/master 4f204c6 Scott Walters: useradd --shell /bin/bash, not useradd --shell bash.  it apparently matters.11:08
starsoftOK, trying again11:14
starsoftWoohoo!  The installer completed, and Webgui8 is running!12:02
scrottiedid you do more questions, as few as possible, or moderate?12:06
starsoftMore.  It all seemed to make sense, and testEnvironment.pl ran OK.  12:07
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scrottienew blog post:  http://www.webgui.org/8/developers-blog/introducing-the-curses-installer12:45
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starsoftOn my new webgui8 system, it all seems to be working except for the assets page in the admin console: when I click on the assets link, it just displays the 'getting started' page.  Other links such as Asset History work.20:03
scrottiethere are definitely bugs.  see webgui.org/8 for a link to the bugtracker.20:09
scrottiethat sounds like a bug and I don't know if it has been reported or not.20:09
scrottieif you go in to settings, you should be able to turn off the new site wizard.  that might be a workaround for that.20:09
scrottiecan't find that though.20:20
starsoftI can't find it either.  I've raised a ticket (#12453)20:49
scrottieI got distracted from trying to find that setting.  not sure how the new site wizard works.  can't find it in the content handlers or operations.20:59
scrottieoh, there it is... WebGUI/Content/Setup.pm.21:00
scrottiespecialState setting is set to init to trigger the wizard21:00
scrottiewgd db -e 'delete from settings where name="specialState"'21:02
scrottiethat should clear that21:02
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starsoftOK, I ran that wgd command, but it didn't make any difference.22:18
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scrottiedid you turn on admin before you went through the new site wizard?23:25
scrottietrying to understand what happened there23:25
scrottieit definitely shouldn't show the wizard unless that value is set23:26
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--- Log opened Mon Aug 25 18:42:07 2014
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scrottiehey spacebot08:37
scrottieI haven't forgotten about you, and sorry for the confusion.08:37
scrottieI'm going to take a closer look at that and try to follow along in a bit here.08:38
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beppu1(been busy with work)21:54
* scrottie nods21:54
scrottieI was kind of hoping jabberwok would comment on my work on the installer and tell me if I really did fix all of the issues he reported.21:55
scrottieI've been trying to get a hackintosh running the past few days21:55
scrottie... and I just crashed Firefox from a cgi script22:01
beppu1firefox stability has gone to shit.22:11
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beppuscrottie: I made a minor change to the CSS for the blog posts over the weekend so the letter spacing in h1 and h2 were normal.23:20
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/81de4b61adf99ef01f7fc5cadf904922bc4faf5b08:17
webguicommitswebgui/master 81de4b6 Scott Walters: add a link to the old source install instructions to the README.md08:17
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scrottiehttps://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/issues/16 ... can anyone help me get homebrew going?00:44
scrottieor verify that I can't run it on 10.7?00:44
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haaargscrottie: the command line tools can be downloaded separately from the apple developer site01:42
scrottieno, it's a different problem, but thank you.02:20
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--- Log opened Sat Aug 30 19:15:23 2014
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webguicommits[webgui] scrottie pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/AlliumCepa/webgui/commit/829e81e2259dd5801405985f234cc8e9b1d1f2cc00:52
webguicommitswebgui/master 829e81e Scott Walters: first stab at OSX OS detection.  renamed $linux to $os since conditional execution depending on flavor of Linux really doesn't describe the situation any more.00:52
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 01 00:00:42 2014

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