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| zylopfa | Hello webguians | 22:20 |
|---|---|---|
| zylopfa | Is webgui 8 still being worked on+ | 22:24 |
| zylopfa | ? | 22:24 |
| @scrottie | I was thinking about kickstarter'ing finishing it | 22:29 |
| @scrottie | I did a bunch of work on the admin a few months back and fixed most of the bugs | 22:29 |
| zylopfa | Sounds sick good | 22:29 |
| @scrottie | danny_mk is working on a rework of the admin that's a huge improvement over Doug's design (imo) | 22:29 |
| zylopfa | who control the www.webgui.org site? | 22:29 |
| @scrottie | PlainBlack | 22:29 |
| @scrottie | right now, wG8 really didn't make the transition to a community power project. | 22:29 |
| zylopfa | they got the heartbleed bug in the openssl | 22:29 |
| @scrottie | yeah. they're working on that while they work on other things. | 22:29 |
| zylopfa | Its a bit silent on the webgui site :( | 22:30 |
| @scrottie | very much. | 22:30 |
| @scrottie | PB isn't working on 8 and only doing bug fixes for paying clients for 7. | 22:30 |
| zylopfa | I patched my own webguis with the new version of openssl , its 64 bit though not the normal 32bit one | 22:30 |
| zylopfa | ahh fair enough scrottie | 22:30 |
| @scrottie | (I am not an authorized spokesperson or employee) | 22:30 |
| zylopfa | You are active though!! | 22:30 |
| @scrottie | kinda. | 22:31 |
| @scrottie | still, that's all 100% unofficial. | 22:32 |
| @scrottie | PB hasn't made an announcement one way or the other. | 22:32 |
| zylopfa | Yeah its a bit silent from his site | 22:33 |
| zylopfa | They have patched their clients sites i just saw | 22:33 |
| zylopfa | is webgui8 kickass? | 22:33 |
| zylopfa | I am only using the latest 7 myself atm | 22:33 |
| @scrottie | wG8 was mostly a core cleanup | 22:34 |
| @scrottie | wG badly needed to be modernized | 22:34 |
| zylopfa | ahhh fair enough! | 22:34 |
| @scrottie | 8 moved it to plack instead of mod_perl, moved to Moose, and just cleaned up a lot of stuff | 22:34 |
| @scrottie | writing assets is a lot nicer | 22:34 |
| zylopfa | Ahh yeah moose is an object layer thing to perl right? to make the oop more "simple"? | 22:35 |
| @scrottie | yeah | 22:35 |
| @scrottie | I'm personally not a fan of it | 22:35 |
| zylopfa | Cant one just use perl objects ? | 22:35 |
| zylopfa | like it is | 22:35 |
| @scrottie | that's what 7 does | 22:35 |
| zylopfa | yeah | 22:36 |
| zylopfa | i'd suspect that moose introduces an overhead | 22:36 |
| @scrottie | it's not that I like native perl OO, it's that the layers on top wind up being counterprodutive | 22:36 |
| @scrottie | bloated, slow, ugly syntax, and in the case of Moose, it kind of encourages people to do really dumb stuff | 22:36 |
| zylopfa | haa damn, sounds bad | 22:36 |
| @scrottie | rather than delegating and building structures that way, everyone goes crazy with method modifies, which is basically glob replacement | 22:37 |
| zylopfa | haa damn | 22:37 |
| zylopfa | Why cant they use perl as it is? | 22:37 |
| @scrottie | no strict 'refs'; my $old_method = *{"Package::$method_name"}; *{"Package::$method_name"} = sub { ... stuff... $old_method->(@_); } | 22:37 |
| @scrottie | people decided that they were going to use *that* trick, but with a nice syntax, as the basis of OO in Perl. | 22:38 |
| @scrottie | because they want something nicer than they have. | 22:38 |
| zylopfa | ahh lol | 22:38 |
| zylopfa | well if you know the language why not just follow it | 22:38 |
| zylopfa | or move to python | 22:38 |
| zylopfa | lol | 22:38 |
| @scrottie | they can do this and they decided they want to. | 22:39 |
| zylopfa | Why do everyone say python when one mention programming now? | 22:39 |
| @scrottie | I've seen a lot of Perl object systems come and go over the years. | 22:39 |
| @scrottie | I've decided they're all trends. | 22:39 |
| zylopfa | haa yeah | 22:39 |
| @scrottie | people rewrite everything to use inside out objects and that's the rage, then a few years later, they're ripping that all out to put something else in | 22:39 |
| zylopfa | I think webgui is a really good framework | 22:40 |
| @scrottie | I think people here would tend to agree with you., | 22:40 |
| zylopfa | like the auth plugins and the content handlers and what not | 22:40 |
| zylopfa | its very thought out | 22:40 |
| @scrottie | yup. it really needs some love right now though. | 22:41 |
| zylopfa | I mostly use content handlers and the auth api, as i am making a site for business owners to control their comanies | 22:41 |
| zylopfa | its very heavy in ajax calls so i make content handlers for that | 22:41 |
| zylopfa | and rely on the auth api for handeling the authentication and group system also | 22:42 |
| @scrottie | cool | 22:42 |
| zylopfa | Will be nice to see what news will come about 8 | 22:43 |
| @scrottie | it's basically abandoned at this point. | 22:43 |
| zylopfa | the api in webgui is awesome so would hate that it got neglected | 22:43 |
| zylopfa | aww damn | 22:43 |
| @scrottie | like I said, I'm thinking of Kickstartering finishing it so that at least there is a beta release | 22:43 |
| zylopfa | sounds like a good idea, i will definately chip in | 22:44 |
| @scrottie | cool | 22:44 |
| @scrottie | drop me an email at scott@slowass.net with "webgui kickstarter" in the subject and I'll let you know when/if I put that up | 22:44 |
| zylopfa | will plainblack need to say ok to that? | 22:44 |
| @scrottie | wG is open source | 22:44 |
| zylopfa | yeah true | 22:44 |
| @scrottie | I still have a commit bit | 22:44 |
| @scrottie | but I could fork it too if they closed their repo down | 22:45 |
| @scrottie | in which case the name would change (they still own the trademark I assume) | 22:45 |
| zylopfa | yeah i guess they have that | 22:46 |
| zylopfa | I was thinking about porting the content handler system, user, and group and the auth system to c++, just the barebones | 22:47 |
| @scrottie | hrm | 22:47 |
| zylopfa | There is one c++ framework atm called cppcms | 22:48 |
| zylopfa | but it doesnt have buildin auth, only some session handeling | 22:48 |
| zylopfa | and it got some good tools for templating etc. | 22:48 |
| zylopfa | but i dont know yet | 22:48 |
| zylopfa | I am still happy about webgui | 22:48 |
| @scrottie | you could also fix wG8 bugs instead if you wanted =) | 22:48 |
| zylopfa | yeah true that would be a better idea | 22:48 |
| @scrottie | I'd love to see it turned into a community project | 22:49 |
| zylopfa | yeah totaly | 22:49 |
| zylopfa | its bullshit when i see people about perl programming | 22:49 |
| zylopfa | "perl is not being used bla bla bla, you never see the .pl suffix anymore on webpages" | 22:49 |
| zylopfa | you can already see there that its written by someone who dont know shit | 22:50 |
| zylopfa | that think you have to have .pl extensions for it to be written in perl | 22:50 |
| zylopfa | Perl regex is still faster than the c++ equivalent | 22:50 |
| zylopfa | and its way more "build in" to the language | 22:51 |
| @scrottie | there are lots of big sites written in Perl... Amazon uses a lot, Walmart, Zappos... but not very much new stuff. | 22:51 |
| @scrottie | people really stopped learning *languages* and started learning applications a while back | 22:51 |
| @scrottie | so a lot of people learned WordPress. | 22:51 |
| zylopfa | ahh yeah true | 22:51 |
| @scrottie | then they learned how to make plugins etc for WordPress. | 22:51 |
| zylopfa | and then they stick to that cause they cant learn other things | 22:51 |
| @scrottie | they learned PHP not because PHP is good, but because stuff they use is written in it. | 22:51 |
| zylopfa | yeah | 22:52 |
| zylopfa | php = dumbed down perl | 22:52 |
| zylopfa | imo anyway | 22:52 |
| @scrottie | the Perl community has done a bad job of getting popular Perl apps out there. that didn't used to be the case... we had awstats, WebGUI, various wikis, one blog platform whose name I forget | 22:52 |
| zylopfa | yeah true, perl community is very silent, or they are only with other perl friends | 22:53 |
| zylopfa | cpan is awesome also | 22:53 |
| @scrottie | exactly | 22:53 |
| @scrottie | writing stuff like Moose, for other Perl programmers | 22:53 |
| zylopfa | I also have a webmail buildin to the business system i make | 22:54 |
| @scrottie | that's one thing I really enjoyed about working on WebGUI for PlainBlack: the code actually solved problems for people | 22:54 |
| zylopfa | i used all kinds of modules from cpan for that Mime modules and what not | 22:54 |
| zylopfa | I even got OCR working for email attachments, using tesseract for that | 22:54 |
| zylopfa | yeah thats the most awesome, when you got a task to solve and then use different things and your own parts to solve it | 22:55 |
| zylopfa | I also use PDF:::API2 from cpan to create and edit pdf for invoices etc | 22:56 |
| zylopfa | and i can see from the pdf i get from others that they dont adhere to the specifications of pdf | 22:56 |
| zylopfa | PDF::API2 does which is awesome | 22:56 |
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| zylopfa | is perldreamer still working on webgui btw | 22:58 |
| @scrottie | fixes for paying clients, yeah | 23:00 |
| zylopfa | ahh ok | 23:01 |
| @scrottie | which is all wG7 | 23:01 |
| zylopfa | I just read a forum post from JT | 23:02 |
| zylopfa | from january this year | 23:02 |
| @scrottie | really | 23:02 |
| @scrottie | about wG? | 23:02 |
| zylopfa | says they are busy working for paying customers | 23:02 |
| zylopfa | on wg7 | 23:02 |
| @scrottie | yup. sounds right. | 23:02 |
| zylopfa | he says they have some customers interested in wg8 and if they move forward they will continue with the open source version of wg8 | 23:03 |
| zylopfa | Can i ask you why switching to moose results in "a large performance gain"? | 23:04 |
| @scrottie | huh? | 23:04 |
| @scrottie | it doesn't. | 23:04 |
| zylopfa | thats what JT is saying | 23:04 |
| @scrottie | I think JT plays a bit fast and loose with stats. | 23:05 |
| zylopfa | "The internal structure of all the objects has been changed over to Moose. This results in a large performance gain and makes it much easier to add customizations." | 23:05 |
| zylopfa | yeah i guess | 23:05 |
| zylopfa | Even in the moose docs it says its a performance degrade | 23:05 |
| @scrottie | wG8 was more responsive because the admin panel stayed loaded in a panel, so it avoided lots of server hits | 23:05 |
| zylopfa | ahh yeah | 23:05 |
| @scrottie | I also know how long it takes the unit tests to run in 7 vs 8 | 23:05 |
| @scrottie | 7 is faster | 23:05 |
| zylopfa | ahh damn :DD | 23:06 |
| @scrottie | I'd love to make 8 really fast though | 23:06 |
| zylopfa | yeah totaly that would be awesome | 23:06 |
| @scrottie | banging MySQL a lot less would do that | 23:06 |
| zylopfa | yeah i guess thats the bottleneck | 23:06 |
| @scrottie | the number of hits on the database right now is insane | 23:06 |
| @scrottie | yeah. | 23:06 |
| zylopfa | how would one solve that? by cache or? | 23:07 |
| @scrottie | wG already caches a lot | 23:07 |
| zylopfa | yeah true the wobjects and stuff | 23:07 |
| zylopfa | and groups also | 23:07 |
| @scrottie | yeah. | 23:07 |
| zylopfa | can you use other db types thats faster? | 23:08 |
| zylopfa | like berkelydb | 23:08 |
| @scrottie | the best thing to do imo would be to move it to coroutines, so everything runs in one process | 23:08 |
| @scrottie | then cache is shared between all of the concurrent connections | 23:08 |
| @scrottie | then 10-20 or more concurrent connections have *one* copy of the cache instead of having 10 or 20 copies of the cacdhe | 23:08 |
| zylopfa | ahh yeah that woul be awesome | 23:08 |
| @scrottie | which means that with the same RAM, you can cache ten times as much stuff | 23:08 |
| @scrottie | it also radically reduces cache access overhead as you don't have to call out to memcached for cached data. it's already in RAM, in a variable. | 23:09 |
| @scrottie | that and make heavy use of MySQL SocketHandler | 23:09 |
| zylopfa | Isnt it a lot of work to make it? | 23:09 |
| @scrottie | MySQL's storage engine is really fast but the SQL parsing layer and locking layers slow it down a lot. HandlerSocket is about ten times as fast. | 23:09 |
| @scrottie | yeah, this stuff would be a lot of work to do. | 23:10 |
| @scrottie | though I already did a lot of HandlerSocket work for one large paying customer. | 23:10 |
| @scrottie | making a popular, busy wG site fast was a challenge | 23:10 |
| zylopfa | haa yeah true | 23:10 |
| zylopfa | With my business management system based on webgui i plan to have about 100 clients on 1 server | 23:11 |
| zylopfa | just a core i7 with 32 gig ram | 23:11 |
| zylopfa | each customer has his own site with its own subdomain | 23:12 |
| @scrottie | wG hosters definitely say they would like to see wG be faster and more efficient | 23:12 |
| zylopfa | So basically i made my own site creation module and script so i can use it with domain, linux-user, email1@domain.com,,, | 23:12 |
| zylopfa | Yeah true scrottie | 23:13 |
| zylopfa | Its mostly centered on enterprise i think | 23:13 |
| zylopfa | and also you need a restart each time you add "customers" to it | 23:13 |
| zylopfa | Can that be overcome in anyway btw? | 23:13 |
| zylopfa | guess not with mod_perl and all | 23:14 |
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| paul_ | hello | 20:41 |
| paul_ | I just installed the packages for Ubuntu. What's the URL? | 20:42 |
| paul_ | the localhost url that is. | 20:42 |
| paul_ | anyone???? | 20:54 |
| paul_ | this software is driving me crazy | 22:01 |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 01 00:00:42 2014 | ||
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