--- Log opened Sun Apr 01 00:00:24 2007
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01:54 <@vayde> cap10morgan, how irritating is that leading space problem in DateTime?
01:54 < cap10morgan> vayde: heh, pretty annoying
01:54 < cap10morgan> oh, that's probably already reported as a bug, isn't it?
01:54 < cap10morgan> it just occurred to me that i didn't even check... :/
01:54 <@vayde> The reason I ask, is that's the proper behavior of the perl DateTime module
01:55 < cap10morgan> vayde: oh...
01:55 < cap10morgan> suck
01:55 <@vayde> Yeah, you have been burining up the bug reports
01:55 < cap10morgan> haha, it's true
01:55 <@vayde> I can figure a way to work around it, but i'm wondering if that's put in there for a reason.
01:55 <@vayde> I don't know what that reason might be though.
01:55 < cap10morgan> vayde: yeah, seems pretty weird
01:56 < cap10morgan> the month %M one doesn't do that
01:56 <@vayde> that's cos there's a workaround in the wG version.
01:57 <@vayde> now that you point that out, that tells me what to do.  thanks
01:57 <@vayde> I just didn't want to change it before giving someone a chance to point out why the leading space was necessary in some obscure way.
02:00 <@vayde> Fixed your '+' in emails too btw
02:11 < cap10morgan> yeah, i saw that thanks
02:11 < cap10morgan> thanks for fixing this one too :)
02:12 < cap10morgan> if you told a workflow to run in the scheduler (i.e. the manual "Run" link), and it just didn't do anything (nothing in the log, not even at info level), what would be the first things to check?
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07:42 <+perlDreamer> vayde!  You're up late tonight
07:43 <@vayde> Late?  Oh I don't know
07:44 <@vayde> Mostly been hangin out hopin you'd show up
07:44 <+perlDreamer> I was in Seattle over the weekend
07:45 <+perlDreamer> any luck with your www_view stuff?
07:45 <@vayde> I haven't really messed with it this weekend.  I was hunting other bugs
07:46 <+perlDreamer> I buttoned up the isSingleton one just now.
07:46 <+perlDreamer> isSingleton wasn't checked in www_editSaveWorkflow
07:46 <+perlDreamer> :(
07:46 <@vayde> It really only showed up in a test wobject I was playing with, so I chalked it up to my mistake.  However I get the same puzzler with debugs put into Asset.pm
07:46 <@vayde> damn.  I was gonna start the day tomorrow with a simple one.
07:47 <+perlDreamer> ah, sorry about that.  But I know why you're having www_view problems.
07:47 <+perlDreamer> Wobjects inherit from Wobject.pm
07:47 <@vayde> Please enlighten me
07:47 <+perlDreamer> Wobject.pm's www_view does not call SUPER
07:48 <@vayde> I must have mistyped
07:48 <+perlDreamer> you put stuff into Wobject.pm's www_view and it doesn't get called?
07:48 <@vayde> that works allright
07:49 <@vayde> putting stuff into Asset.pm 's www_view method doesn't work
07:49 <@vayde> putting them in both yields Wobject.pm 's message only.
07:49 <@vayde> hence it looked like somehow the base class was overriding the derived class
07:49 <+perlDreamer> it is
07:49 <+perlDreamer> Wobject.pm has a www_view
07:50 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't call SUPER
07:50 <+perlDreamer> so it's overridden, not extended
07:50 <@vayde> Oh duh!  Wobject inherits from Asset, not the other way around
07:51 <@vayde> I was thinking Article, and putting my statements into Asset
07:51 <@vayde> Well, I knew there was a problem, and it turns out that problem is me!
07:52 <+perlDreamer> I don't suppose preaction said anything about MrHairGrease's proposed Post.pm fix?
07:52 <@preaction> perlDreamer: didn't work.
07:52 <+perlDreamer> bummer
07:54 <+perlDreamer> I've been drooling over this
07:54 <+perlDreamer> http://sourceforge.net/projects/smolder
08:00 <+perlDreamer> Back in December I did some P6 test hacking.
08:00 <+perlDreamer> They use something that looks like Smolder (may actually be)
08:00 <+perlDreamer> It was awesome
08:01 <@vayde> Hmm.  No, it's not just me.  Putting the following into Article.pm yields nothing:  $self->session->errorHandler->warn('foo');  print STDERR "foo \n";
08:02 <@vayde> neither on the page or in the logs.  It's like the method isn't being called.
08:03 <+perlDreamer> restarted Apache after changing it?
08:03 <@vayde> yeah, couple of times
08:03 <@vayde> and dumped the caceh
08:03 <@vayde> cache
08:05 <@vayde> Been wracking my brain trying to find out how that would even be possible, and if it is, how we're doing it.  Seems to be an interesting trick.
08:06 <@vayde> even this doesn't work: die "ARRRGH! \n";
08:09 <+perlDreamer> I'm getting the same thing
08:09 <+perlDreamer> Wobject's www_view is being called
08:09 <@vayde> Oh good, then it's not just me.
08:10 <@vayde> rizen said something about it being a wG thing, but didn't have time to explain.  I may not have communicated what was going on precisely though
08:10 <+perlDreamer> hang on, I have an idea
08:11 <+perlDreamer> The article you're looking at, is it inside a Layout?
08:11 <@vayde> Page layout?  Yes.
08:11 <+perlDreamer> that is why
08:11 <+perlDreamer> I think
08:11 <+perlDreamer> Layout calls the child Asset's prepareView directly
08:12 <+perlDreamer> so it never invokes www_view
08:12 <+perlDreamer> The Wobject call is from the Layout, not from the article
08:12 <+perlDreamer> if you view the Article URL directly, you should see it pop-up
08:12 <@vayde> Since Layout basically means a page, isn't everything technically in a Layout?
08:12 <+perlDreamer> no
08:13 <+perlDreamer> Assets, in wG 6.3, were originally concieved to be "pageless".
08:13 <+perlDreamer> you wouldn't need a container Asset to have a single Article.
08:13 <+perlDreamer> But most entry level wG users couldn't get the idea into their heards, so the Layout is used everywhere
08:14 <@vayde> Aha!  Light dawns on shady brook!
08:14 <+perlDreamer> but if you go directly to any Asset's URL, it will use whatever page style it is configured to have and render you "a page".
08:14 <@vayde> If I call it directly it dies screaming.  That's gratifying
08:14 <+perlDreamer> It's one of the hiccups people have with the CS
08:15 <+perlDreamer> some want it to remain "embedded" in the current page, rather than pushing down into the core CS asset itself
08:16 <+perlDreamer> this also means that cache specific behavior for the Article is not propagated up to the page through www_view.
08:17 <+perlDreamer> that's worth bringing up to JT, since viewing an Article on a page will increase the load on the server
08:18 <@vayde> I'll mention it to him
08:19 <+perlDreamer> tomorrow, if you like, I can show you the test scripts
08:19 <+perlDreamer> I've been told that my tests are a little confusing
08:19 <@vayde> I'll take any help you have time/interest in offering
08:20 <@vayde> especially when it prevents me from bugging JT or preaction.  I sense they cringe when I log on
08:21 <+Radix-wrk> "But most entry level wG users couldn't get the idea into their heards, so the Layout is used everywhere" - not just entry level wG users - I'm still this way and don't think that will ever change to be honest.
08:22 <+perlDreamer> I must be making large (and false) assumptions.
08:22 <+perlDreamer> my apologies
08:22 <+Radix-wrk> none taken ;)
08:22 <@vayde> I didn't really think of 'Layout' and 'Page Layout' as the same thing.  I just figured the page layout thing was a fancy interface to the page's properties.
08:23 <+perlDreamer> it is
08:24 <+perlDreamer> Layout is just a container.
08:24 <+perlDreamer> Like a Folder
08:24 <+perlDreamer> The Wiki is also pretty much a container.
08:24 <+perlDreamer> and the CS
08:24 <+perlDreamer> and the Calendar
08:24 <+perlDreamer> they don't really do much beyond aggregate data from their children
08:24 <@vayde> I see that now.  Thanks.  
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08:48 <@vayde> Well, that's it for me.  'night all
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11:51 < nuba> so, while using WWW::Mechanize to mass migrate some content to Articles w/ file attachements i had to manually add the file input to the form before posting it, as it is currently added by javascript. should I file that as a bug ?
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15:49 < SDuensin> Good morning.
15:50 < pjesi> hi SDuensin
15:51 < SDuensin> Hey pjesi 
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18:46 < preaction_> can someone here try to access http://commctrl.com and get a default webgui install page?
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18:46 <@preaction> just trying to check that my router is working right
18:47 < ckotil> its just loading and loading....
18:47 < ckotil> timed out
18:48 <@preaction> that's not as good
18:48 <@preaction> that sounds like what manuel does, since it's trying to run Perl CGI on a 90mhz machine.
18:48 <@preaction> when the router should be pointing to wyoh...
18:49 < ckotil> heh
18:49 < pjesi> I get a page
18:49 <@preaction> pjesi: a page with green on the top?
18:50 < pjesi> sorry I dont
18:50  * pjesi looked at the wrong tab
18:52 <@preaction> rofl... my DNS provider reset my settings?
18:52 < ckotil> I just experienced some wierd shit, was editing an asset, but never got attached to a version tag.
18:53 <@preaction> what kind of asset?
18:53 < ckotil> folder asset
18:54 <@preaction> that is weird
18:56 < ckotil> tell me about it. quite scary too
18:56 < ckotil> the manager caught the problem.
18:56 < ckotil> i have yet to expirience it
18:57 < ckotil> im hoping its related to me clearing the file cache via a scheduled task
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19:01 < perlmonkey2> preaction: run your own DNS cacheing service and no more problems with DNS providers :)
19:01 <@preaction> i lied, nothing in the DNS changed
19:01 <@preaction> the router restarted itself
19:01 <@preaction> everything Should work
19:01 <@preaction> it works internally, with my /etc/hosts files updated accordingly
19:12 < ckotil> damn, WebGUI dir is at half a gig now
19:13 < SDuensin> That's all?  You're not trying!
19:14 < ckotil> good to hear
19:14 < ckotil> pastebin paste
19:15 < ckotil> perlbot paste
19:15 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
19:15 < ckotil> http://sial.org/pbot/23946
19:15 < SDuensin> I've got one of about 5 sites half built and I'm at 1.5.  Moving it to my host is going to take forever.  :-)
19:15 < ckotil> weatherdata is really screwing me
19:17 < pjesi> topic is old :)
19:18 <@preaction> ckotil: you're going to have to comment out the sub that adds that column so that your upgrade can run successfully, after you restore from backup
19:19 <@preaction> one of these days someone should remind me to ask TMRFE for a week or two to build a better upgrade system
19:19 < ckotil> ok. so i need to restore my back up first?
19:19 < ckotil> then run upgrade.pl with the commented out sub?
19:20 <@preaction> yes, that upgrade (.10-.11) didn't get to finish because it died in the middle
19:20 < ckotil> ok, ya i see an open version tag
19:20 <@preaction> but the upgrade.pl script kept on going, which i would consider a bug but JT would call an RFE
19:21 < ckotil> heh
19:21 < ckotil> so this sub updateTemplates{}
19:21 <@preaction> no
19:21 <@preaction> there's a section after WebGUI::Session->open that is a list of subroutine calls
19:22 <@preaction> nevermind, there's only that one thing in that upgrade anyway
19:22 < ckotil> in  updrade_7.3.10-7.3.11.pl?
19:22 <@preaction> yeah, after my $session = start();
19:22 <@preaction> it's fixWeather or something
19:23 < ckotil> got it.
19:23 < ckotil> can i just rerun the upgrade script or must i bring up my backup?
19:23 <@preaction> how long has it been since the backup?
19:23 < ckotil> just did it a minute ago
19:24 < ckotil> jsut before the upgrade
19:24 <@preaction> it would probably be best to bring up the backup
19:24 < ckotil> k
19:24 <@preaction> somehow your site got the additional weather column without running the upgrade
19:24 < ckotil> i was told to add it while trying to fix  bug
19:24 < ckotil> :/
19:25 <@preaction> that'd be why
19:25 <@preaction> it's best to bring up the backup in case something in the 7.3.11 upgrade relies on something in the upgrade that failed
19:25 < ckotil> k
19:25 <@preaction> in this case, it probably did not happen, but better safe than sorry and other trite expressions
19:26 < ckotil> always
19:32 < ckotil> upgrade complete
19:32 < ckotil> thx
19:45 < ckotil> mmm paginated commite version goodness
19:45 < ckotil> commited
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19:54 < SDuensin> Hey rizen 
19:54 <@rizen> howdy
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21:07 <+snapcount> anybody home?
21:08 <+perlDreamer> hola
21:08 < pjesi> hæ
21:08 <+perlDreamer> how you doing, man?
21:09 <+snapcount> life is rough... I have to wait for at least 2 hours before WoW downloads
21:09 <+snapcount> =)
21:09 <+perlDreamer> I've been feeding your crickets
21:09 <+snapcount> heh
21:10 <+snapcount> I should enter the style wcc
21:10 <+snapcount> that would be funny
21:10 <+snapcount> Steve would get nausea
21:10 <+snapcount> lime green with orange
21:10 <+snapcount> lots of <blink> tags
21:10 <+snapcount> show off my design prowess
21:11 <+perlDreamer> blink is so 90's
21:11 <+perlDreamer> we need to update it for y2k
21:11 <+snapcount> I can bring it back
21:11 <+perlDreamer> we'll call it the "bling" tag
21:11 <+snapcount> there ya go
21:13 <+snapcount> I haven't had a chance to check out the acme entries...
21:13 <+snapcount> any good ones?
21:13  * SDuensin thinks so.   :-)
21:13 <+snapcount> what did you submit?
21:13 < SDuensin> The HGR Macro.
21:14 <+snapcount> what does it do?
21:14 < SDuensin> Lets you use Apple II high resolution images as assets.  :-D
21:15 <+snapcount> is there a reason that you couldn't do that without the macro?
21:15 <+snapcount> I don't really know what an Apple II high res image is or what's unique about it
21:15 < SDuensin> It reads them right off Apple II ProDOS formatted disk images and displays them as PNGs.
21:15 < pjesi> haha
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21:16 < SDuensin> Apple II images are 240x192 six color images saved as an 8k raw memory dump of the video page of an Apple II.
21:16 < SDuensin> They're encoded really funky like.  Woz managed to get six displayable colors (there are actually 8, but two are white and two are black) out of a 1 bit memory map.
21:17 <+snapcount> well that definitely sounds like an acme contrib =)
21:17 <+snapcount> nicely done
21:17 < SDuensin> :-)
21:17 < SDuensin> I figured that was weird enough.
21:17 <+snapcount> I'm fresh out of Apple II's though
21:17 <+snapcount> so I guess I can't try it out
21:18 < SDuensin> I put a sample image in the archive.
21:18 <+snapcount> so the image can be stored on other OS's and still requires the macro?
21:18 <+snapcount> what does it do... translate to a web friendly binary format?
21:19 < SDuensin> Makes it a PNG
21:19 <+snapcount> ok the light bulb is starting to come on
21:19 <+snapcount> sounds pretty cool
21:20 < SDuensin> You can have multiple 8k pictures stored in a 140k ProDOS disk image.
21:20 < pjesi> SDuensin: how long time did it take you?
21:20 < SDuensin> Few days.  WebGUI API was the hardest part.   :-)
21:20 <+snapcount> I want to write a code breaking wobject
21:21 <+snapcount> for substitution ciphers
21:21 <+snapcount> not brute force though, that's gay
21:21 <+snapcount> I was going to have it use a frequency method
21:21 < SDuensin> Do a one-time pad.  Each run needs a new PM module.
21:21 <+snapcount> based on the language the message is in
21:22 < cap10morgan> so, we have around 55 domains in our webgui 7 installation
21:22 < cap10morgan> but spectre seems to be getting further and further behind
21:22 <+snapcount> The thing that interested me was the algorithim for breaking the cipher so I was going to write it all from scratch
21:22 <+snapcount> I just like to use WebGUI because of the API
21:22 <+snapcount> granted it's probably more familiar to me =)
21:23 < cap10morgan> the server has plenty more horsepower to throw at it, but how do i tell spectre to use it?
21:23 < cap10morgan> i've tried increasing the number of maxWorkers to 25
21:23 < cap10morgan> what else should i do?
21:23 <+snapcount> what is spectre getting hung up on?
21:24 < cap10morgan> the workflow queue just keeps getting longer and longer
21:24 < cap10morgan> it's processing through it all
21:24 < cap10morgan> but it just keeps growing
21:24 <+snapcount> latest version?
21:24 < cap10morgan> yeah
21:24 < cap10morgan> 7.3.13 in WRE 0.7.2
21:24 < cap10morgan> on RHEL 4
21:24 <+snapcount> there is probably a workflow that is hanging up
21:24 <+snapcount> spectre doesn't ignore those anymore
21:24 < cap10morgan> i'm watching spectre run, there doesn't seem to be
21:24 <+snapcount> it pushes them to the bottom of the que
21:25 <+snapcount> so if you have a list that is growing... that would be my first guess
21:25 < cap10morgan> ok
21:25  * SDuensin is excited - he just ordered a virtual server to put his WebGUI (and other) STUFF ON!  WHOOO!
21:25 <+snapcount> basically if the wf has a problem it becomes priority 0
21:25 <+snapcount> so spectre runs the other stuff and then trys those again
21:26 <+snapcount> set your logging to debug and see if you have errors
21:26 < cap10morgan> ok
21:27 <+snapcount> btw this is just community advice
21:27 <+snapcount> I don't work for pb anymore so this isn't official support
21:27 <+snapcount> just so you know
21:27 < cap10morgan> ok
21:27 < SDuensin> That means we don't have to pay you.  :-)
21:27 < cap10morgan> haha
21:27 <+snapcount> that's one way to look at it =)
21:28 <+snapcount> SDuensin: where did you get your server?
21:29 < SDuensin> LiquidWeb.  I've been using them for some time.  Support is excellent.  (I'd have done PlainBlack, but I need root access and can't afford them - yet!)
21:29 < cap10morgan> one of our domains just added a ton of workflow instances to the queue at priority 20
21:30 <+snapcount> I think that higher number == lower priority
21:30 < SDuensin> snapcount - I just got this:  https://www.liquidweb.com/shared/plan4.htm
21:30 <+snapcount> I never looked at that code after rizen re-wrote it
21:31 <+snapcount> I need to setup a virtual machine in windows... what do you guys recommend?
21:31 <+snapcount> VMWare appears to cost $$$
21:31 <+perlDreamer> installing linux :)
21:31 <+snapcount> and I don't like that
21:31 < cap10morgan> VMWare Server is free
21:32 < cap10morgan> that's what i use
21:32 <+snapcount> My bodybugg doesn't work in Linux
21:32 <+snapcount> so I need windoze
21:32 <+snapcount> and I have the muscle to run a virtual machine pretty snappy
21:32 <+perlDreamer> what's a bodybugg?
21:33 <+snapcount> amazing what 4 sata2 baracuddas in Raid 0 will do for performance
21:33 <+snapcount> it's a "Make yourself un-fat monitor"
21:33 <+snapcount> its an armband that measures the amount of calories you're burning
21:33 <+snapcount> I want to loose 2lbs/week
21:34 <+snapcount> so I need to burn 1000 calories more than I consume each day
21:34 <+snapcount> this tells me how many I'm burning and the food log part of the software tells me how much is going in
21:35 <+snapcount> the software is all web based but uses active x controls so it requires IE
21:35 < perlmonkey2> how does it know how many you are burning?
21:36 <+snapcount> it measures a lot of things like number of steps, heart rate, and the electrical conduction between two points on your skin
21:36 <+snapcount> some how all of that crap into some formula lets them figure it out
21:36 <+snapcount> pretty amazing
21:36 <+snapcount> also your skin temperature I think
21:36 < perlmonkey2> that is amazing.
21:36 <+snapcount> www.bodybugg.com
21:37 < pjesi> snapcount: that is no excuse
21:37 < pjesi> http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
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21:38 -!- wgGuest49 [n=wgGuest4@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
21:38 < pjesi> :P
21:38 < wgGuest49> what the f
21:38 < perlmonkey2> IEs4Linux++
21:39 -!- wgGuest49 is now known as snapcount
21:39 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by ChanServ
21:39 <+snapcount> apparently this chat java applet doesn't like it when you minimize the window
21:40 < pjesi> did you see the url?
21:40 <+snapcount> no
21:41 < pjesi> [19:37] <pjesi> http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
21:43 <+snapcount> will active x controls work?
21:43 <+snapcount> I think that's how it interfaces with the hardware
21:43 < SDuensin> This is a better URL:   http://goodbye-microsoft.com/
21:43 < SDuensin> :-)
21:44 <+snapcount> that's funny
21:44 < SDuensin> snapcount, just snag VMWare Server.  It works great.
21:44 < SDuensin> Video is slow on the Server edition, but you just minimize it and SSH in anyway.  :-)
21:44 <+snapcount> will that allow you to create the virtual machine?
21:44 < cap10morgan> snapcount: yes
21:44 < SDuensin> Or you could be completely psycho and use CoLinux.
21:44 < SDuensin> Yes.
21:45 <+snapcount> ok that sounds good... vmware server is the free one right
21:45 < SDuensin> BillSoft also gives away VirtualPC now, too.  I prefer VMWare Server though.
21:45 < SDuensin> Yep.  Free.
21:45 <+snapcount> cool
21:45 <+snapcount> It will slow down my WoW download for a bit but I suppose that's acceptable
21:46 < SDuensin> hehehe
21:46 <+snapcount> 3.18 GB
21:46 < SDuensin> You're a digital crack addict.
21:46 <+snapcount> 20% done woo hoo
21:46 <+snapcount> digital crack eh?
21:46 <+snapcount> haven't heard that one yet
21:46 < SDuensin> That reminds me - I need to install CentOS in a VM.
21:46 <+snapcount> but it sound appropriate
21:46 < SDuensin> World of Warcrack?
21:46 <+snapcount> ahh
21:47 <+snapcount> I haven't played in quite a while
21:47 <+snapcount> I'm starting up again
21:47  * snapcount has a relapse
21:47 < SDuensin> It's the newer, more addictive, version of EverCrack.
21:47 <+perlDreamer> Intervention!
21:47  * SDuensin just sticks with IRC.  It's the same, but with lower system requirements.
21:47 <+snapcount> always wanted to be on TV
21:47 <+snapcount> I finally have a system that can play games again
21:47 <+snapcount> so I'm happy
21:48 < SDuensin> I do, too.  Just can't find *time* to play them!
21:50 <+snapcount> ah yes
21:50 <+snapcount> time
21:51 < SDuensin> I bought a GameBoy DS game.  Figured I could play it while on the couch or wherever and maybe get to game a bit.  My two year old has played it more than I have.  (She's watched the intro at least two hundred times.)
21:53 <+snapcount> my Mom hijacked my DS when I visited her last
21:53 <+snapcount> now she has her own
21:53 <+snapcount> thank God
21:53 <+snapcount> she got hooked on Brain Age
21:53 < SDuensin> hehe
21:54 < SDuensin> The game I got was "Hotel Dusk:  215".  What I've seen of it is pretty cool.
21:55 <+snapcount> crap I keep forgetting this is a 64 bit machine
21:55 <+snapcount> I'm constantly downloading the wrong stuff
21:55 < SDuensin> ehe
21:56 < SDuensin> hehe
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23:21 < ckotil> brain age is neat
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23:26 < SDuensin> Wow, ckotil, you got some lag.  :-P
23:28 < ckotil> heh
23:28  * ckotil blames the 3 beers at lunch
23:28 < ckotil> it acutually just clicked now in my head what brain age was.
23:28 < cap10morgan> so, i have a custom workflow that i wrote that runs fine on my development box
23:28  * ckotil 's brain age is 200
23:29 < SDuensin> hehe
23:29 < cap10morgan> but on my server, it doesn't run
23:29 < cap10morgan> it doesn't spit out any errors or anything in the log
23:29 < cap10morgan> even when i run it manually in the scheduler admin console
23:29 < cap10morgan> any idea what to check?
23:30 < cap10morgan> i have a once every 5 minute schedule for it to run, but it just doesn't
23:30 < ckotil> what does it do?
23:30 < ckotil> what kind of workflow?
23:30 < cap10morgan> it processes "actions"
23:31 < cap10morgan> which are basically dataform submissions
23:31 < cap10morgan> once it's done its work, it marks the datafrom_entry as processed in the db (using a new field)
23:31 < cap10morgan> but that's not happening
23:31 < cap10morgan> i see no evidence anywhere that it's even attempting to run... :/
23:32 < cap10morgan> hahaha
23:33 < cap10morgan> it just ran
23:33 < cap10morgan> finally!
23:33 < cap10morgan> :)
23:33 < ckotil> heh
23:33 < ckotil> so spectre took a while to process it?
23:33 < cap10morgan> wow, it took it like half an hour to run
23:33 < cap10morgan> well, it didn't even attempt to run it until just now
23:33 < ckotil> thats one of my biggest complaints with webgui right now
23:33 < cap10morgan> and then it completed basically instantly
23:34 < cap10morgan> how asynchronous spectre is?
23:35 < ckotil> not sure.
23:35 < ckotil> seems to be quite a bit tho
23:35 < ckotil> otherwise why would jobs take so long to process , or even get into the queue?
23:39 <+perlDreamer> It's very hard to debug spectre problems on dev systems
23:41 <@rizen> pd, i disagree
23:41 <@rizen> spectre has all kinds of debug and testing stuff now
23:41 <+perlDreamer> I should be more clear
23:41 <+perlDreamer> It's hard to replicate some spectre problems on dev systems
23:41 <@rizen> and as for synchronicity problems, it's got to be a config error, or you've found a new bug that no one else has reported
23:41 <+perlDreamer> spectre seems to be very situatinos dependent
23:42 <@rizen> have you guys done: perl spectre.pl --status
23:42 <@rizen> It tells you what's in the queue and how long it's been running
23:42 <@rizen> what the status of each things is as well
23:51 < SDuensin> Ok, heading home.  Later all.
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00:41 < cap10morgan> spectre.pl --status is pretty interesting
00:42 < cap10morgan> i have a bunch (over 400) waiting workflows, all at priority 20 or 21
00:42 < cap10morgan> the ones at 21 are complete
00:42 < cap10morgan> the ones at 20 are all "never run"
00:42 < rizen_> "complete" means that it successfully ran it's last task
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00:46 < cap10morgan> does 400 workflows seem normal for ~10 domains?
00:46 <@rizen> not even close to normal
00:46 < cap10morgan> kinda what i thought...
00:46 < cap10morgan> hmm...
00:46 <@rizen> it does depend on your spectre settings though
00:47 <@rizen> what does your spectre config look like?
00:47 <@rizen> the defaults aren't really adequate for a multi-domain server
00:47 < cap10morgan> ok to paste to channel?
00:47 <@rizen> perlbot paste?
00:47 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
00:48 < cap10morgan> http://sial.org/pbot/23951
00:49 <@rizen> wow
00:49 < cap10morgan> i love ~70 domains by the time this is a production server
00:49 <@rizen> i wouldn't set max workers higher than 5
00:49 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
00:50 <@rizen> also, time between workflows should probably be 1 second
00:50 < cap10morgan> ok, changing those
00:51 <@rizen> generally speaking you want the list of running workflows to be empty
00:51 <@rizen> aka zero latency
00:51 < cap10morgan> right
00:53 <@rizen> for example: http://sial.org/pbot/23952
00:53 <@rizen> this particular box has 90 sites running on it
00:54 <@rizen> the only ones sitting in the queue are ones that are waiting for approval
00:54 < cap10morgan> is priority 20 the lowest priority?
00:54 <@rizen> nope
00:54 <@rizen> well wait
00:54 <@rizen> by lowest do you mean "least"
00:54 <@rizen> the priorities are 0, 10, and 20
00:54 <@rizen> the starting
00:55 <@rizen> something with a priority of 0 will be run immedietly
00:55 < cap10morgan> ok
00:55 < cap10morgan> gotcha
00:55 <@rizen> as things are executed, their priority will increase
00:55 < cap10morgan> alright, my queue is steadily declining now
00:55 <@rizen> you may see something like 243/20 as a priority
00:56 <@rizen> meaning that it has executed 223 times
00:56 <@rizen> and started at 20
00:56 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
00:56 <@rizen> generally, anything running that long is going to be problematic
00:56 < cap10morgan> right, makes sense
00:56 <@rizen> everything that comes with webgui will fully complete withing 5-15 executions
01:04 < cap10morgan> thanks rizen, that's working much more smoothly now
01:04 <@rizen> glad to hear it
01:05 <@rizen> incidentally there's a lot of info about spectre included in the upcoming "WebGUI Administrators Guide" book that i'm writing
01:05 <@rizen> you should check it out
01:05 <@rizen> it should be out mid may
01:05 < cap10morgan> oh, cool
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01:09 < cap10morgan> well that was fun
01:09 <+perlDreamer> vayde, you want to talk tests?
01:10 <+perlDreamer> cap10morgan: indeed.  at least it was short
01:10 < cap10morgan> :)
01:10 <@vayde> sure, let's talk tests
01:10 <+perlDreamer> We'll do the email one first, it's the easiest.
01:11 <+perlDreamer> 1) Grab a copy of my wG testing talk from http://www.sunsetpres.org/web/webgui
01:11 <+perlDreamer> 2)Skim it (10-15 minutes tops)
01:11 <+perlDreamer> 3) Holler back
01:11 <@vayde> will do
01:14 <@vayde> Woah, pD.  I just looked at the clock.  I have to teach shortly.  I'll read it and check back with you either later tonight if you're around or tomorrow
01:15 <+perlDreamer> no problem
01:15 <+perlDreamer> hack on, it whatever medium you need to
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 03 03:58:51 2007
--- Log opened Tue Apr 03 12:58:56 2007
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15:57 < SDuensin> Blargh.  Morning.
15:59 < AMH_bob> Goodmorning
16:04 < SDuensin> Hey AMH_bob 
16:04  * SDuensin is already having a bad day.  :-(
16:05 < SDuensin> You'd think a company the size of Apple would be able to pay their bills.
16:06  * SDuensin has the worst luck getting paid for his work.  <sigh>
16:19 < AMH_bob> They make pretty good stuff, that's all I know!
16:21  * SDuensin is on a MacBook Pro right now.  :-)
16:24 < AMH_bob> would like to be on a MacBook Pro right now :P
16:25 < AMH_bob> I'm in The Netherlands, it seems that this channel gets busy when I head off to home ... :(
16:25 < AMH_bob> its 3:24 pm here 
16:32 < AMH_bob> I'm crash coursing wobjects now... it is starting to make sence
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16:35 < SDuensin> Cool, AMH_bob - I get to learn that yet.  
16:35 < SDuensin> I *almost* had it figured out in the 5.x series.  Then I went away for a bit.  :-)
16:35 < SDuensin> Hey MrHairgrease 
16:37 <+MrHairgrease> hi
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18:03 < cga> ciao a tutti =)
18:04 < cga> ohps sorry
18:04 <+MrHairgrease> hi
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19:21 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease: Do you know if there's a EuroWUC this year?
19:22 <+MrHairgrease> While I am not certain
19:22 <+MrHairgrease> I think no
19:22 <+MrHairgrease> It there is, I would've prolly heard about it
19:22 <+perlDreamer> okay, thanks
19:23 <+MrHairgrease> that is, if oit wer to be in NL
19:23 <+perlDreamer> well, you are well connected in the Euro wG community
19:23 <+MrHairgrease> only in the dutch incrowd
19:23 <+MrHairgrease> most of the other euro guys i have never seen
21:01 -!- dgm [n=dgm@24-119-133-72.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #webgui
21:02 < dgm> trying to install webgui from source....  and I have to say... the instructions are severly lacking.  
21:02 < perlmonkey2> How long would it take to port WebGUI to use Moose?  I've already tested Moose with Poe with no issues.
21:03 < perlmonkey2> Although I don't start the Poe event loop until the Moose post-constructor BUILD call.
21:03 < SDuensin> Moose?
21:04 < perlmonkey2> Moose is Perl6 OO in Perl5
21:04 < SDuensin> Ah.
21:04 < SDuensin> dgm - you mean the WRE?
21:05 < dgm> no, the source
21:05 < perlmonkey2> yes, rewrite all of the source in Moose.  
21:06 < SDuensin> Source of WebGUI?  Or compile the WRE from source?
21:06 <+perlDreamer> installing wG from source couldn't take more than 15-30 minutes, with most of that being downloading and installing perl modules from CPAN
21:06 < dgm> webgui source
21:06 < dgm> on ubunto 6.06
21:06 < dgm> cpan modules wouldn't all install
21:06 <+perlDreamer> which ones?
21:07 < SDuensin> Why not use the WRE for Ubuntu?
21:08 < dgm> I already have other apahce websites....  doesn't the WRE supply another apache?
21:08 < SDuensin> Two more, in fact.  :-)
21:08 < perlmonkey2> dgm, I originally thought the documentation was lacking, because I didn't have a lot of modules installed.  The real problem was the documentation was too thorough and I had skimmed a lot of it, missing crucial steps.  Everything I had to do to get WebGui source running on brand new Fedora boxes was in the documentation.
21:09 < dgm> the cpan stuff should be earlier
21:10 < dgm> the instructions show the apache config before showing the cpan stuff, but some perl stuff needs to be installed before the web server is restarted
21:11 < dgm> gah.   I have to give up for today... 3 hours is too much
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21:12 < SDuensin> He was fun.
21:12 <+perlDreamer> yes, but too bad he wouldn't give more details
21:12 <+perlDreamer> dgm is a PHP/perl/rails dev
21:12 < SDuensin> Ah
21:13 <+perlDreamer> perlmonkey2: it would be a big task to rewrite everything in Moose.
21:13  * SDuensin is a whatever-the-source-is-in dev.
21:14 < perlmonkey2> perlDreamer: probably makes more sense to wait until Perl6 is production worthy?
21:14 <+perlDreamer> rizen would like to move to p6 when that happens
21:15 <+perlDreamer> It would be nice (very nice) to have the power of p6 today, but don't you think it would be much slower than regular old p5?
21:15 < perlmonkey2> I've signed up to the pugs project, but haven't had time to contibute :(
21:15 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI can always use more perl hackers
21:15 < perlmonkey2> Slower?  Definetely.  Noticeably?  Probably not.
21:16 <+perlDreamer> are there any Moose benchmarks out there for comparison?
21:16  * perlmonkey2 would love to be a full time Perl project hacker.
21:18 <+perlDreamer> I found a little info in Moose::Cookbook::FAQ
21:19 <+perlDreamer> the big risk in such a big rewrite is that there's no wG-wide test suite to back you up.
21:20 < perlmonkey2> yes, it wasn't a very well thought out idea.  But irc is perfect for those :P
21:20 < perlmonkey2> Plus, since p6 is ontrack for xmas2007, the rewrite would just be wrapped up when p6 design work would need to be started.
21:21 <+perlDreamer> maybe we should flesh out wG's test suite to make such ideas easier to implement?
21:21 < perlmonkey2> And the p6 rewrite will be magnitudes more fun.
21:22 < perlmonkey2> With threading functional and working, I wonder if POE will be necessary anymore?
21:22 <+perlDreamer> p6 has been on track for xmas 2\d\d\d for a long time
21:23 < perlmonkey2> #perl6 is very assuring on this issue.
21:26  * perlmonkey2 gets a little sick to his stomach thinking about a redesign of WebGui that would not entail using POE.
21:27  * perlDreamer heads off to lunch. bbl
21:31 < SDuensin> WTF is POE anyway?  All I know is that I updated it.  :-)
21:32 < ckotil> http://poe.perl.org/?POE_Components_List
21:34 < perlmonkey2> POE is a psuedo operating system/event handler.
21:35 < SDuensin> ah
21:37 < SDuensin> Man, there's POE crap for everything.  :-)
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21:43 < perlmonkey2> yes, POE is like butta
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22:58 <+perlDreamer> vayde, want to talk tests?
22:59 <@vayde> I'd love to, but I have to squash something for JT first
22:59 < SDuensin> He's scared of spiders, eh?
22:59 <@vayde> gimme a few to puzzle over it, maybe you can explain it to me
23:00 <@vayde> call me the Orkin man...  Nik Bash Bugs!
23:01 <+perlDreamer> are we going to release tomorrow?
23:04 <@vayde> I don't know.  I'm pretty low on the totem pole
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--- Day changed Wed Apr 04 2007
00:28 <@preaction> god i remember saying that same thing a few months ago
00:36 <@vayde> ahh, the good old days  eh?
00:37 <@vayde> now you're the 'elder brother' as we would say in kung fu
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01:18 <@preaction> of course, kohai
01:20 <@vayde> wrong country round eye.  To me you're 'sihing'.
01:20 <@preaction> that's racist, dog
01:20 <@preaction> they're not round, they're more droopy
01:23 <@vayde> Hey, as a Japanese/Swedish/Scot I reserve the right to use 'round eye' any time I want.  Don't make me serve you raw lutefisk while wearing a kilt!
01:24 <@preaction> Japanese/Swedish/Scot who teaches Chinese martial art?
01:24  * preaction braces for "wrong country, <insert racist term>"
01:24 <@vayde> Yup.  My great-great-great grandfather was samurai, and I only do chinese martial arts.  My family is very disappointed
01:25 <@preaction> i'd break out the "slope", but i'm white, so therefore I cannot play with racism.
01:26 <@preaction> yeah, i'd say so. how long did Japan have to defend itself against Chinese/Mandarin tyrants?
01:27 <@vayde> At least twice, but other than the Mongols, I don't really remember.
01:27 <@vayde> I'm more familiar with the times it wen't the other way
01:30 <@preaction> the evil japanese imperialists? I remember one, and vaguely remember that another one might've been a factor in a mongol occupation before the mongols established a dynasty. but i'm probably just admitting my own ignorance
01:31 <@vayde> I have a weapon style/form that was specifically tailored to fight the japanese katana. 
01:32 <@vayde> I'm not much of an historian, really.  I just hit stuff.
02:09 <@vayde> Is there a support/hosting price list somewhere?
02:12 <+perlDreamer> https://www.plainblack.com/store/services
02:18 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: PBstore is https://www.plainblack.com/store/services
02:18 < perlbot> added PBstore to the database
02:18 <@vayde> duh.  found it
02:24 <+Radix_> mornin'
02:25 <+Radix_> I'm winning on the ACME contest so far.. of course noone else has voted and I voted for myself, but hey..
02:25 <+Radix_> ;)
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05:59  * PedersenMJ wavers.
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06:17 < pjesi> \o
06:18 < pjesi> PedersenMJ: how many styles do you plan to submit to the contest? :-)
06:18 < PedersenMJ> I still thought it had to be all original? And, though I can convert without problem, making a new one? I suck.
06:23 < pjesi> it has been changed?
06:23 < pjesi> I think
06:23 < pjesi> you can convert open source templates
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Ah, cool. In that case, I might have time to convert a good three or four of them :)
06:25 < pjesi> nice!
06:25 < pjesi> I was hoping I can find the time for one!
06:26 < PedersenMJ> Hey, they're pretty easy. Just go down the tutorial I wrote, working on any given theme. Shouldn't take but 3 to 4 hours, depending on complexity.
06:26 < PedersenMJ> Some could take longer, sure, but they're pretty easy overall.
06:26 < pjesi> PedersenMJ: yeah I know how to make them, but just really busy
06:27 < pjesi> for instance I am pulling an "allnighter" as we speak
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Ah, ditto. Still, it's a chance for another $250, so I can make some time.
06:27 < pjesi> :)
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Just got home from work half an hour ago myself (it's now 11:30pm).
06:27 < pjesi> Im doing final assignments for a msc course
06:28 < pjesi> I have written more code in the last three week then the entire year 2006
06:28 < pjesi> weeks*
06:28 < PedersenMJ> Well, if it was for you, rather than for a course, I'd say congrats on these 3 weeks.
06:28 < pjesi> it is 4:28 over here 
06:28 < pjesi> :)
06:29 < pjesi> Im just really tired, have to submit at noon
06:29 < PedersenMJ> That's never any fun.
06:30 < pjesi> but I learned a lot on these three weeks, so I dont regret it
06:34 < pjesi> but it would be nice to do some fun work that does not require much "brains" like converting a style :)
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Heh. I'm working on finishing a python app of mine before I allow myself some of the fun stuff.
06:36 < PedersenMJ> Wonder if it could be done for perl, actually? It's a three piece tool for python scripts.
06:36 < PedersenMJ> 1) Run a compile process over all files.
06:37 < PedersenMJ> 2) Run a documentation checker, making sure that all docs are written, properly tagged, etc
06:37 < PedersenMJ> 3) Run a unit test coverage checker, which makes sure that every method has a unit test, and that the test actually calls the method
06:37 < PedersenMJ> (woops, 4 parts) 4) Run the unit tests
06:39 < PedersenMJ> I don't doubt it could be done in/for perl, but I have no idea how I'd go about it.
06:43 < pjesi> python is cool
06:44 < pjesi> the web frameworks look really promising
06:44 < PedersenMJ> Can be, sure. I dunno. I'm using it because it's the best tool for the job I've got in mind, but I can't honestly say I really like it. Sorry, but the mandatory whitespace thing really bugs me.
06:46 < PedersenMJ> Okay, this one made me LOL: http://www.bash.org/?258104
06:46 < pjesi> I dont mind it
06:47 < pjesi> hehe
07:02 < PedersenMJ> Yeowch. Here's one I'd not soon try on *any* machine I cared about (unless it was Windows... wait, I did say cared abotu, which eliminates Windows anyway): http://www.bash.org/?96164
07:02 <@preaction> roflrofl
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07:05 < PedersenMJ> Shh! he's back!
07:05 <@preaction> don't say that, now he knows!
07:06 < PedersenMJ> Damn! Hinrik, please log out, log back in again, and pretend you haven't seen anything, okay?
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07:18 < PedersenMJ> Video that you need to see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFpp1zRrDfg
07:18 < PedersenMJ> Well, will enjoy seeing, if you like flight.
07:30 < pjesi> what did I miss? :s
07:30 < pjesi> Hinrik: you better upload pictures of the kitten real soon, I want to see the soldier
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08:37 < Hinrik> talking about me eh...
08:43 < Hinrik> pjesi: here you go
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2674/kitty1fu1.jpg
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8739/kitty2tf5.jpg
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/1848/kitty3hl1.jpg
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/7666/kitty4ra3.jpg
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8611/kitty5fq2.jpg
08:43 < Hinrik> http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1086/kitty6xm7.jpg
08:44 < Hinrik> excuse the toes
08:48 <@preaction> KITTIES
08:48 <@preaction> ooh, he's a teenager and he's all gangly and CUUUUUTE
08:48 <@preaction> oh.. it was just that one pichar he looked gangly
08:57 < pjesi> pie
08:59 < Hinrik> she
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10:19 <@preaction> i hate learning that my assumptions were wrong and having to undo 4 hours of work at 2:00 in the morning...
10:19  * preaction goes to bed instead
10:25 <+Radix-wrk> heh
10:26 <@preaction> and my gf wonders why i'm gaining weight... no time to do anything but sit here with a computer on my lap...
10:26  * preaction stops whining
10:26 <+Radix-wrk> I had a similar ordeal today
10:26 <@preaction> eventually, i mean
10:26 <@preaction> yum
10:26 <+Radix-wrk> assumptions are killers
10:27 <@preaction> one of those "I want to build an EMP so that every computer will die and we'll have to use tech manuals to build our technology back up to current level over a slow period of a few decades"?
10:28 <+Radix-wrk> heh
10:28 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18099897
10:29 <+Radix-wrk> did I post that one in here?
10:30 <@preaction> not that i know of
10:32 <@preaction> 3 minutes into it and ... wow...
10:33 <+Radix-wrk> yeah
10:34 <@preaction> of course, all he had to do was say "hold the power button for 6 seconds"
10:34 <+Radix-wrk> personally I think both are idiots.. the dell tech was obviously following protocol by asking for his basic questions.. knowing that if he didn't get them up front the guy would hang up
10:34 <@preaction> i hate level 1 techs
10:35 <+Radix-wrk> that said, he could have told the guy this up front so the guy didn't go on and on
10:35 <+Radix-wrk> but obviously the second guy is an idiot also who just likes the sound of his own voice and likes to yell and abuse.
10:36 <@preaction> i dunno man, after an hour screwing around with those automated systems, i want to kill people too
10:37 <@preaction> that added to the "it's so simple I'm stupid for not figuring it out" embarassment of how to turn the thing Off
10:37 <@preaction> after the first bit of yelling, i'd deviate from script and say "hold the power button down for a few seconds"
10:40 <@preaction> and now i'm reading this thread and i'm wondering why more people do NOT yell at the tech support people...
10:40 <@preaction> their bosses seem to think that support is just a waste of money. a "120 second handle time", what if it's actually a real PROBLEM?
10:44 <+Radix-wrk> yup, which is why i said both are idiots
10:53 <@preaction> http://customerssuck.com <- some hilarity here
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11:55 <@preaction> has anyone seen ubuntu's launchpad recently? https://launchpad.net
11:55 <@preaction> wonder if the new webgui.org site could do things as straightforward as this
12:02 <+Radix-wrk> it's very nice
12:02 <@preaction> screw that, it's amazing
12:03 <@preaction> RFE for built-in bug tracking to the project manager perhaps?
12:03 <@preaction> plainblack is just using a CS right now
12:04 <@preaction> built-in release tracking too maybe? mark bugs for certain releases and then the release can have a percentage done
12:08 <@preaction> mark RFEs as well, put them in the same system (being able to choose between "RFE", "Minor", "Major", "Critical" or "Fatal")
12:21 <+Radix-wrk> hehe.. I want to download it and install it on a server here to manage our own projects.. wish we could!
12:21 <+Radix-wrk> anyways.. hometime now.. adios
12:21 <@preaction> cya
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13:28 <+Radix_> I should prolly write this up in the wiki sometime I guess - http://www.plainblack.com/web_design_templates_and_themes/newbie-how-to-set-navigation-for-different-areas-of-the-site
13:30 <@preaction> snippets are cached, so the slowdown with assetproxy calls is minimal compared to the time it saves you. processor time is less expensive than programmer time (which i try to convince my bosses of every time they tell me to optimize before implementation)
13:31  * preaction remembers that the channel is listening and there are logs...
13:31 <@preaction> but yes, that would make a bully wiki article
13:33 <+Radix_> "The awesome power of snippets and assetproxy - or how to make your site more dynamic than ever"
13:49 <+Radix_> http://www.biggercheese.com/comics/0332.png
13:50 <@preaction> they h4x0r3d t3h g1b50n!
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15:53 < ckotil> If you have a workflow w/ object type WebGUI::VersionTag , can you create a scheduled event to execute a workflow w/ object type WebGUI::User without getting errors?
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15:58 < SDuensin> Good morning.
15:58 <@preaction> ckotil: iirc versiontag and user workflows don't work under the scheduler (since they require objects)
15:58 < ckotil> I see
15:58 < ckotil> that makes sense
15:59 < ckotil> Can I safely delete the workflow from the WorkflowInstance table?
16:01 <@preaction> maybe, maybe not
16:02 <@preaction> i personally haven't had any major problems removing things from the WorkflowInstance table, and you might want to go remove things from WorkflowInstanceScratch too, but ymmv
16:02 < ckotil> the bulk of the workflow ran fine, its just this last activity in the workflow that is getting hung up bc its a create scheduled event w/ WebGUI::User
16:03 < ckotil> yah. ive done it in the past, and nothing got screwed up
16:05 < ckotil> I had this workflow creating a scheduled event to send an email notifying users that there is a pending version tag needing to be approved
16:05 < ckotil> it just occured to me i can pull this off with this activity i have that lets me send an personilzed email message to any email address
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17:28 < ckotil> i think i found a bad bug 
17:28 < ckotil> w/ editing file assets.
17:29 < ckotil> when you click save, the file gets downlaoded and an warning is thrown
17:29 < ckotil>  WARN - globalnoc.webgui.conf - main::[[undef]] - Couldn't call method editSave on asset for url:
17:29 < ckotil> Root cause: Can't call method "setPrivileges" on an undefined value at /gnoc/globalnoc/htdocs/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/File.pm line 251.
17:29 <@vayde> ugh
17:30 < ckotil> im about to revert to a backup
17:30 < ckotil> bc i have to be able to have users edit file assets
17:30 <@vayde> when did that start?
17:30 < ckotil> today
17:30 <@vayde> which version?
17:30 < ckotil> i upgraded yesterday
17:31 < ckotil> 7.3.13
17:32 <@vayde> write it up so we have a record of it in the system, and I'll jump on it right away
17:32 < ckotil> submitting a post to the PB Support forum
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17:35 < ckotil> http://www.plainblack.com/plain_black_support/wierd-behavior-when-editing-file-asset
17:35 <@rizen> why are you giving me that url?
17:39 < ckotil> habbit
17:39 < ckotil> sorry
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19:03 < ckotil> thanks jt
19:04 <@rizen> np
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20:27 <+perlDreamer> bunches and bunches of PB people today
20:27 <+perlDreamer> hello PB people!
20:28 <@preaction> hello perlDearest
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20:55 <@rizen> preaction......your wording scares me sometimes
20:55 <@preaction> "wording"?
20:55 <@rizen> perlDearest
20:56 <@rizen> and i remember one time you saying something like "yes JT sweetums" or something like that to me
20:56 <@preaction> it's a good gauge of my mood: the more eloquent the speech, the more embarassed or ashamed or... oh, you're talking about THAT
20:56 <@preaction> that's just good ol fashioned fun!
20:56 <+MrHairgrease> what's wrong with that sweetums?
20:56 <@preaction> yeah, pookie-pie?
20:57  * preaction might have just gone too far
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> nah
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> you have to call jt my little p[onie for that
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> or
20:57 <@preaction> is that a reference to Plone? one of the Axis of Evil?
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> maybe carebear\
20:58 <@rizen> i hate you guys
20:58 <+MrHairgrease> fyr!
20:58 <+MrHairgrease> i can't belive that you liked the bofh macro better than the l33tout
20:58 <@preaction> MrHairgrease: i wasn't able to get the l33tout to work :'(
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> what?
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> what went wrong
20:59 <@rizen> and l33tout is a remake, where bofh is brand new
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> i didn't say so in the rules
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> but then again
20:59 <@preaction> couldn't call method "get" on an undefined value at line something, i can dig it up hang on
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> i do not care that much
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> oh
20:59 <+MrHairgrease> weird
21:00 <@rizen> there's nothing saying you can't do a remake...just that i prefer new stuff to a remake
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> file a bug report =)
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> ok
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> fair enough
21:00 <@rizen> also...bofh gives you something new an hillarious everytime
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> try explain that to marijn
21:01 <+perlDreamer> so who is marijn?
21:01 <+perlDreamer> you were going to tell us about her last week but were suffering
21:01 <+perlDreamer> from EBC
21:01 <+MrHairgrease> a girl who like ultrahip eurothrash with sex appeal
21:01 <+perlDreamer> can she hack?
21:01 <+MrHairgrease> no
21:01 <+MrHairgrease> but she can drink
21:01 <+MrHairgrease> which is a virtue in itself
21:01 <+perlDreamer> 1/2 isn't bad!
21:01 <+MrHairgrease> right?
21:02 <@rizen> i'm not certain why she likes ultruhip eurotrash though
21:02 <@preaction> can she outdrink a german?
21:02 <+perlDreamer> it's the sex appeal
21:02 <@preaction> no, can she outdrink an Irishman?
21:02 <+perlDreamer> well, bring her to Wisconsin in October
21:02 <+perlDreamer> we'll teach her perl
21:02 <@preaction> we can test the german one then
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> ok pd
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> you get joeri to ay expenses for marijn
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> and i might bvring her
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> actually
21:03 <+perlDreamer> she's part of your staff
21:03 <+perlDreamer> required for travel
21:03 <+perlDreamer> it's not an option
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> there's a picture of her in the spot gooey section
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> no staff!
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> i don't have any staff
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> being a minion muself
21:04 <+perlDreamer> who is going to check your flights, handle appointments, speaking engagements and the autograph event?
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> joeri is
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> but he also pays my bills
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> oh
21:04 <+MrHairgrease> diners ready
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21:40 <+perlDreamer> w00t! release.
21:40 < ckotil> hrm, i cant seem to recall wehre the code is that will prevent me from uploading an htm file. automatically turns it into a txt
21:40 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: [ WebGUI 7.3.14 | WRE 0.7.2 ][ New Contest Open -- Acme Code Contribution -- Win $$$ and Karma (www.plainblack.com/wcc) ]
21:42 <+perlDreamer> Storage.pm
21:42 < ckotil> thx p
21:42 < ckotil> d
21:43 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: btw, I haven't had a chance to look at your workflow bug.  It may be a while, so if you'd like someone else to look at it it's fine by me.
21:44 < ckotil> no problem.
21:44 < ckotil> none of the bugs seem to be urgently requiring attention
21:52 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: [ WebGUI 7.3.14 | WRE 0.7.2 ][ New Contest: Theme Design -- Win $$$ and Karma (www.plainblack.com/wcc) ]
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22:28  * SDuensin has been busy as crap today.
22:31  * pjesi has not slept for 37 hours
22:35 < SDuensin> I slept, but I don't know if it did any good.
22:35  * ckotil bites
22:35 < ckotil> why?
22:44 < pjesi> three deadlines at noon
22:44 < ckotil> thats hardcore
22:45 < pjesi> yeah I should know
22:48 < SDuensin> Been there, done that.  You can keep it.
22:49 < pjesi> I dont want to be rude and sit on it alone
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22:57 <@vayde> Hey pD!  Im in the club!  I just broke a couple pb servers!
22:57  * SDuensin cheers!
22:58 <@vayde> well, I didn't totally break them, it was just a flesh wound...
23:00 < pjesi> Hinrik once did rm -r mysql in wre on a site launch day, that was a good day
23:00 < pjesi> :)
23:00 < Hinrik> yes
23:01 <@vayde> I'm still in the bush leagues I guess.  I think I already fixed what I did.  Hafta try harder next time I guess
23:04 < ckotil> heh
23:38 <+perlDreamer> how did you do it, vayde?
23:38 <+perlDreamer> share your pain....
23:38 <@vayde> Oh, no biggie, really, I just screwed up how the CS mail handler works.
23:39 <@vayde> It should be fixed now, but of course, now that I'm waiting for the email to circulate, they are g o i n g  v e r y  s l o w l y
23:39 <+perlDreamer> that's a pretty good one.  Broke all notifications and subscriptions for forums.
23:39 <+perlDreamer> that's at least a 7
23:40 <@vayde> wow, and it only took 3 or 4 lines
23:40 <@vayde> gifted I guess
23:41 <@vayde> actually, come to think of it, I've been claiming my real talent to be in the field of destruction for years now
23:42 <+perlDreamer> analyze your enemies weaknesses and use them to defeat him?  Or is that the wrong philosophy?
23:43 <@vayde> close.  
23:43 <@vayde> Actually the art of war says that being invulnerable lies with you, but being vulnerable lies with the enemy
23:43 <@vayde> therefore great warriors made themselves invulnerable, and then awaited the moment when the enemy could be defeated
23:43 <@vayde> all I can really do is make myself invulnerable.  
23:44 <@vayde> you are responsible for leaving an opening.  all I do is use it when you present it
23:45 -!- bopbop [n=kmccombs@68-114-216-78.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has left #webgui []
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--- Day changed Thu Apr 05 2007
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02:33 <+Radix_> I love deadlines
02:33 <+Radix_> I especially like the wooshing sound they make when they go past.
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03:33 < nuba> Radix_: thats a classic line :)
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03:50 <+crythias> hrm
03:50 <+crythias> ch-ch-ch-changes
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03:53 <+crythias> Jesse!
03:54 <+crythias> Hiya, Radix-wek
03:54 <+crythias> erm. Radix-wrk
03:54 <+Radix-wrk> Hiya
03:54 <+Radix-wrk> Just got into the office :)
03:55 <+crythias> Ah. :) 
03:55 <+Radix-wrk> last day of work before a nice long easter weekend :)
03:55 <+crythias> likewise
03:55 <+crythias> actually, I'll be taking off Thursday :)
03:56 <+crythias> So, Roy's gone, hmm?
03:56 <+Radix-wrk> gone?
03:57 <+crythias> Apparently, no longer staff @plainblack...
03:57 <+Radix-wrk> Ahh.. i see
03:58 <+crythias> CTS.. speaking of /topic...
03:59 <+crythias> http://crythias.blogspot.com/2007/04/from-picture-choose-color-scheme.html
04:00 <+Radix-wrk> cool idea
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04:24 < PedersenMJ> good evening
04:25 < SDuensin> Hey PedersenMJ 
04:25 < PedersenMJ> How's it going?
04:26 < SDuensin> Other than I'm sick as a dog, not bad.  :-)
04:26 <@preaction> that's not good
04:27 <@preaction> in fact, i would go so far as to call that abd
04:28 < PedersenMJ> Meh, I dunno. I've known some sick dogs, and more often than not, it just turns out they need some simple meds, and they're fine.
04:28 < PedersenMJ> Of course, the whole neutering thing sucks.
04:28 <@preaction> whoa, this conversation took a very bad turn
04:29 < SDuensin> hehehe
04:30 < PedersenMJ> Well, whatever you do, don't get sick as a dog. Lest somebody decide you should be neutered.
04:30 <+crythias> ugh
04:32 <+Radix-wrk> Umm.. yeah
04:32 <+Radix-wrk> Hi Ped
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04:33 < PedersenMJ> Hey, Radix. You're not that sick, are you?
04:33 <+Radix-wrk> I'm pretty sick.. but physically I'm just fine.
04:33 <@preaction> take them both out back and shoot them?
04:34 < PedersenMJ> Nah, that's for horses.
04:34 <@preaction> *sniff* they were the best devs a guy could want
04:34  * SDuensin is, that's true.
04:34 < SDuensin> :-P
04:35 <+Radix-wrk> I think you're all pretty sick.
04:36 <@vayde> wouldn't be here if we weren't
04:36 < PedersenMJ> Uh-uh. Definitely not sick. Not with chats of neutering and shooting going on.
04:36 <@vayde> or maybe, we wouldn't feel comfortable here if we weren't sick
04:36 <@vayde> Jeez, you guys have all the interesting chats after I log off
04:37 <+Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, you're the only one obsessed with neutering I think ;)
04:37 < PedersenMJ> Hey, it was SDuension who said he was sick as a dog.
04:38 <@preaction> a simple figure of speech turns into a bloodbath of neutering and euthenasia
04:39 <+Radix-wrk> hence why I think you're all pretty sick.. in the head. ;)
04:39 <+Radix-wrk> Have you guys ever heard the term "fully sik"?
04:40 <@preaction> i've not not heard of it!
04:40 <@preaction> no wait. just regular not
04:41 <+Radix-wrk> It's an aussie slang used by greeks and lebanese over here to say something is pretty cool
04:41 <+Radix-wrk> ie. "That car is fully sick Habib!"
04:41 <+Radix-wrk> sick/sic/sik are used interchangeably in those sentences
04:42 <@preaction> it's west-coast slang in america, not very midwest yet
04:42 <+Radix-wrk> Became a big thing after the aussie show and movie "Fat Pizza"
04:42 <@preaction> nik's west-coast i think. come to think of it i don't know where nik lives
04:43 <@preaction> ... and fixing one bug reveals another...
04:43 <+Radix-wrk> So to be called "sick" has other connotations over here.. it can also mean very cool
04:44 <@vayde> Im midwest.  Minneapolis.  Sick here is just, sick.
04:45 <@preaction> vayde: wait, don't we have a staff get-together this weekend sometime?
04:45 <@vayde> week from friday
04:46 <@preaction> good. i thought i forgot. way too much stuff piling up
04:46 <@vayde> Friday the 13th actually.
04:46 <@vayde> fitting I thought
04:47 <@preaction> dear jeebus
04:47 <@preaction> i'll need to bring my garlic
04:47 <@preaction> does garlic work on you people?
04:49 <@vayde> nope, not crucifixes either.  We're different sorts of terrible evil
04:49 <@vayde> you could try beer, or women.  I confess to having a weakness for either.
04:50 <@vayde> they don't really ward off the evil, just keep it distracted for a while
04:55 <@preaction> how can i ward off evil with evil? more beer?
05:00 <+Radix-wrk> Just bring buffy along
05:01 <@preaction> but buffy is part of the "evil-that-is-greater-than-nik"
05:01 <@vayde> everything's better with more beer
05:01 <@vayde> and yes, please bring buffy
05:02 <@vayde> I like her kind of evil...
05:02 <@preaction> the pretty one or sarah michelle gellar?
05:02 <@vayde> the original please
05:04 <@vayde> speaking of that kind of evil, you guys are lucky, I have managed to persuade the GF that the 'staff get together' is just for staff
05:04 <@vayde> If you think meeting me is a shock, wait till you meet her.
05:05 <+Radix-wrk> You mean this buffy? - http://next-episode.net/babe-of-the-day/babe/470.html
05:05 <+Radix-wrk> Personally, I prefer the series
05:06 <@vayde> yeah, that's the one.
05:06 <@preaction> my gf's 5 foot nothing and about 120 lbs. i'm six-three, 190. our maturity levels are so different she could be my daughter if i weren't always pawing her. i doubt you can shock me :p
05:06 <@preaction> kristy swanson! that's her name
05:06 <+Radix-wrk> favourite episode was Hush - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush_(Buffy_episode)
05:06 <@vayde> Ok, you thought that the Japanese-Swedish-Scot chinese martial artist who has delusions of being a developer was bad?
05:07 <@vayde> my gf's a costume designer for renaissance festivals, not to mention a slinky, redheaded, tatooed, ex dominatrix and stripper
05:07 <@preaction> i'm shocked
05:08 <@preaction> SHOCK AND AWE
05:08 <@vayde> I win
05:08 <+Radix-wrk> awesome
05:08 <@vayde> just another lure for the next WUC.  I don't think you want to put it on the ads though
05:08 <+Radix-wrk> My gf sells drugs for a living - and makes a nice bit of money out of it.
05:09  * SDuensin takes more of an interested in what vayde has to say
05:10 <@vayde> heh, I don't know if I can top myself.
05:11 < SDuensin> Well, if your girl is the dominatrix, that makes you a bottom.  :-P
05:11 <+Radix-wrk> I went out with a Madam once
05:11 < PedersenMJ> Hmm, lessee: Buy drugs from Radix's gf, or ogle vayde's gf. One legal, one not. One liable to get me punched by three people (vayde, vayde's gf, and my wife), one liable to get me thrown to the ground by large men in blue uniforms who will place me in a large building to stay with large men named Bubba. Tough choice.
05:11 <@vayde> lol
05:12 <@preaction> PedersenMJ: you'd survive the blue men. i'm not sure you'd survive vayde
05:12 <@vayde> naw, she stopped the dominatrix gig a while ago
05:12 < PedersenMJ> Survive the blue men? Sure. Dunno that I'd survive the Bubba's, though.
05:12 <@vayde> I pop the cores of heavy bags with punches.
05:12 <@preaction> webgui question: should different revisions to the same assetId under the same version tag create new revisions? or should an asset only get one revision per version tag?
05:13 <+Radix-wrk> Hmm.. interesting one
05:13 <+Radix-wrk> Currently it does new revisions
05:13 <@preaction> right, but i don't know why
05:13 <@preaction> i mean, when debugging javascript, i've got like 60 revisions of this template
05:14 <+Radix-wrk> Well if something is being edited multiple times before it's committed then you don't necessarily want to lose those changes
05:14 <@preaction> true
05:14 <+Radix-wrk> I think it should really combine all of the revisions done under a revision tag when it's actually committed tho
05:15 <@preaction> what if after its committed some higher power decides they want B (which was deleted when committed)?
05:15 <@preaction> seems to me the issue is all-or-nothing, and there's a better argument for all
05:15 <+Radix-wrk> they'd roll back to the revision prior to the latest commit
05:16 <@preaction> but the changes that made B are lost, A being the original, C being the new
05:16 <@preaction> if B and C were created under the same version tag
05:16 <+Radix-wrk> Oh I see what you mean
05:16 <+Radix-wrk> Yeah.. better argument for all then for those cases
05:17 < PedersenMJ> Too bad there's no good ui to allow the user to choose whether or not to collapse the changes.
05:19 <@preaction> you can delete revisions. perhaps a revision manager much like the asset manager? with a checkbox list so you can select multiple revisions to delete?
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05:48 <+perlDreamer> crythias: How you doing, man?
05:51 <+perlDreamer> vayde: I got you test email.  I forwarded it back to you with all headers for inspection.
05:51 <@vayde> cool.  It turned out there WAS a server issue
05:52 <@vayde> I finally got all the test emails I sent out this afternoon.  Boy my 'delete' key got tired
05:52 <+perlDreamer> especially after handling a room of "monsters"
05:53 <@vayde> Yeah, years ago we called them the 'baby class', but word got out, and they were offended.
05:53 <@vayde> then we started calling them the monsters, and word got out.  they're proud of it
05:55 <+perlDreamer> it's amazing how labeling works
05:56 <@vayde> It's a fun class. 4~6 yr olds.  Not the most technical class around mind you, but entertaining.
06:01 <@preaction> that's cute
06:02 <@preaction> almost as cute as kittens.
06:02 <+perlDreamer> preaction: maybe you'd like to go class and tell them that?
06:02 <+perlDreamer> I can see it now
06:02 <@preaction> and have them beat the crap out of me? my gf's 6-year old brother already does that, and he isn't being training in martial art
06:03 <+perlDreamer> vayde can fix that...
06:03 <@preaction> true, though i'm not sure what martial art vayde teaches
06:03 <+perlDreamer> W.A.
06:03 <@preaction> that means nothing to me :(
06:04 <+perlDreamer> it's a redneck term.  Whoop Ass
06:04 <@vayde> Hsing-I, Bagua, Taiji, Northern Shaolin Longfist, and Southern Hung Gar
06:04 <@preaction> ah
06:04 <@preaction> and now i know as much as i did before ;)
06:04 <+perlDreamer> usually stored in cans, hence the phrase, "Open up a can of Whoop Ass on you"
06:04 <@vayde> I'll show you guys a bit of it when we're in person
06:05 <@preaction> i imagine there are better disciplines for different types of people?
06:05 <@vayde> It all comes down to physics and physiology.  The difference between styles is largely a matter of approach and taste
06:05 <+perlDreamer> okay, needing a clue here.  Why would one use $asset->getValue('assetProperty') instead of $asset->get('assetProperty')?
06:07 <@preaction> pd: i believe getValue has the added benefit of looking at the form first. at least, from the docs i read on it?
06:07 <@preaction> it sounded to me like you could use $asset->getValue() as the value of a form element in an asset edit form and it would automatically survive preview / edit errors
06:07 <+crythias> sorry for delay... perlDreamer. I'm fine.
06:07 <@preaction> of course, i've never used it as such
06:08 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I think the docs lie
06:08 <@preaction> i do too, because i didn't see anything referring to session->form
06:08 <+perlDreamer> pinging rizen.
06:08 <+perlDreamer> rizen, please report to IRC to beat your clueless volunteer dev
06:10 -!- crythias is now known as cluelessnewb
06:10 <+cluelessnewb> what's a webgui? izzat like a browser?
06:11 <+perlDreamer> naw
06:12 <+perlDreamer> preaction: getValue just looks like it dupes some of the code in new, for providing defaults from the definition sub.
06:13 <@preaction> perlbot be cluelessnewb 
06:13 < perlbot> <cluelessnewb> How I can make teh web wit pearl?!?!
06:13 <+cluelessnewb> how do I get webgui off of me?
06:13 <+perlDreamer> cluelessnewb: lava soap and a camel hair brush
06:14 <+perlDreamer> either that, or wd40
06:14 <+perlDreamer> it fixes everything
06:14 <+cluelessnewb> webgui sounds like something a spider shoots out of its butt.
06:15 <+cluelessnewb> can you imagine Spderman being more anatomically correct?
06:15 <@vayde> my gf thought the mascot should be cthlulu
06:15 <@preaction> omg gooey totally reminds me of a baby cthlulu
06:15 <@vayde> that's what she said too
06:16 <@vayde> that's alright though, remember, 'evil' spelled backwards is 'live'
06:17 <+cluelessnewb> and Maisey backwards is es I am
06:17 <+cluelessnewb> Yes I am
06:17 <@preaction> Naomi I moan
06:17 <@preaction> A toyota's a toyota
06:17 <@preaction> A dog! A panic in a pagoda!
06:18 <+cluelessnewb> A man a plan a canal. Panama.
06:18 <@vayde> If I could reach you, I would hurt you
06:18 -!- cluelessnewb is now known as crythias
06:19 <@preaction> i palindome i!
06:19 <@preaction> someday mother will die and i'll get the money
06:20 <+crythias> I can't believe it's not butter.
06:22 <@rizen> let the beating commence
06:22  * PedersenMJ breaks out the popcorn.
06:22 <+perlDreamer> greetings, sensei.  Why does one use getValue vs get?
06:22 <@vayde> hajime!
06:22 <+Radix-wrk> !Ah Satan - Natasha!
06:22 <+crythias> Speaking of Cthulhu ... http://www.electric-escape.net/node/1425
06:24 <@vayde> I got a button for christmas that said: "Jesus saves, Moses invests, Cthulu forcloses!"
06:24 <@rizen> get is the value stored in the db
06:24 <@rizen> getValue is a helper
06:24 <@rizen> it checks the value from form() first
06:24 <@rizen> $session->form->param()
06:24 <@rizen> then gets the value from the db
06:24 <@rizen> then gets the default
06:25 <@rizen> so basically, if the form value exists, it uses that
06:25 <+perlDreamer> the form->param part is missing from getValue
06:25 <@rizen> it is?
06:25 <+perlDreamer> yup
06:25 <@rizen> i wonder when it was removed
06:27 <+perlDreamer> before rev 1152
06:27 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2401
06:27 <+perlDreamer> before rev 24
06:28 <+perlDreamer> a very long time ago
06:28 <+perlDreamer> are the CVS archives still online?
06:29 <@rizen> hmmm...perhaps i removed it on purpose
06:29 <@rizen> if it's been gone that long
06:29 <@rizen> then it probably shouldn't be there
06:29 <@rizen> and i just don't remember it
06:30 <+perlDreamer> so the real difference is that get gives you values from the db, and getValue will give you values from the db OR defaults from the definition sub.
06:31 <@rizen> yup
06:32 <@rizen> we probably don't need getValue() anymore
06:32 <@rizen> we can probably change get() to do that
06:32 <@rizen> and then write getValue() out of existence in the 8.x series
06:32 <@rizen> but that's so far off, who cares
06:32 <+perlDreamer> or new could pull defaults out of the def sub
06:33 <+perlDreamer> then we could drop getValue and leave get as is
06:33 <@rizen> either or...but for now it stays as is
06:33 <@rizen> as i said, who cares
06:33 <@rizen> it's too far off to start thinking about 8.x now
06:33 <+perlDreamer> got it, chief
06:34 <+perlDreamer> I'll update the POD
06:36 <+perlDreamer> I'll send you a Beating IOU, for another time
06:37 <@rizen> bah...no need
06:37 <@rizen> i'll just take it out on sarah
06:37 <@rizen> =)
06:37 <+perlDreamer> oh dear
06:38 <+perlDreamer> oh, while you're here, care to confirm or deny the rumor of WebGUI-Microsoft connection?
06:39 <+Radix-wrk> heh
06:39 <@rizen> what have you heard
06:39 <@rizen> i will admit there have been talks
06:40 <+perlDreamer> well, it seems strange that several PB people would choose to move to the only city whose airport letters are MSN
06:40 <+perlDreamer> from there it was easy to connect the dots
06:40 <+perlDreamer> increased workload
06:40 <+perlDreamer> decreased productivity
06:40 <+perlDreamer> (everyone moved to using Microsoft desktops)
06:41 <@vayde> maybe you should hand over that IOU after all...
06:41 <@rizen> pd: you know why i hired vayde, right?
06:42 <@rizen> it's to conduct beatings on my behalf
06:42 <@rizen> all i can do is brute force the beatings
06:42 <+perlDreamer> He's a db expert
06:42 <+perlDreamer> (Designated Beater)
06:42 <@rizen> but he knows how to kill you in 6 different styles
06:42 <@vayde> I'm the complaint department
06:42 <+Radix-wrk> heh
06:45 <+Radix-wrk> heh.. PB Support board just hit 100000 views
06:46 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/discuss
06:46 <@rizen> that seems very low
06:47 <+Radix-wrk> rizen: could you do me a favour and rate my rfe when you have a minute?
06:47 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/additional-post-template-variables-for-cs
06:49 <+Radix-wrk> Compared to the other forums it seems low, but obviously only support users can see the forum, so it's pretty impressive if you look at it that way
06:50 <@rizen> true
06:50 <@rizen> i don't like your RFE's radix
06:50 <+Radix-wrk> why?
06:52 <@rizen> mostly because they are written by you
06:52 <+Radix-wrk> :P
06:53 <@rizen> what if i told you that you can already do this
06:53 <+Radix-wrk> how?  I'd love to know
06:53 <@rizen> and even moreso than that, it has far more power than what you're asking for
06:54 <+perlDreamer> "dumber than a box of rocks"  rjacobsen is too funny
06:54 <@rizen> what is this information worth to you?
06:54 <@rizen> perhaps you will punch perlDreamer in the arm?
06:55 <+Radix-wrk> sure
06:55 <@rizen> hehe
06:55 <+perlDreamer> left arm please, I have to perform this weekend
06:55 <@vayde> ooh!  ooh!  pick me!
06:55 <@rizen> the answer you are looking for is ^-;
06:56 <@rizen> let's say you write an article^-; that looks like this
06:56 <@rizen> your synopsis will now be "let's say you write an article"
06:57 <@rizen> the ^-; special character tells webgui where you want to grab the synopsis from
06:57 <@rizen> so rather than taking after the first carriage return
06:57 <@rizen> it will stop at ^-;
06:57 <@rizen> wherever that is in the text
06:57 <@rizen> in addition to that
06:57 <+Radix-wrk> Ahh.. well there's a macro I never knew existed.  You're right, that works a treat.
06:57 <@rizen> it's not a macro
06:58 <@rizen> it's just s special sequence of characters
06:58 <@rizen> anyway...in addition to that, you can actually go one step further
06:58 <@rizen> you can expose the synopsis field directly
06:58 <@rizen> then you can type something wholly new into the synopsis if you like
06:59 <@rizen> anyway...i'm going to go ahead and delete your RFE
06:59 <+Radix-wrk> k
06:59 <@rizen> because i would have rejected it anyway
07:00 <@rizen> adding variables like those to the collaboration system would have slowed it down tremendouslyy
07:01 <@rizen> go forth and share this knowledge
07:01 <@rizen> in the form of a wiki article
07:01 <+Radix-wrk> fair enough - preaction did mention that too - but he didn't tell me about ^-;
07:01 <@rizen> he probably didn't know about it
07:01 <+perlDreamer> It also works in the Article
07:02 <@rizen> true 
07:02 <@rizen> most people don't even know that the article asset supports pagination
07:03 <+perlDreamer> most people don't read the docs, that's why
07:03 <+Radix-wrk> Happy to write a wiki article for it - though I don't follow the step further you described or how I would do any of that
07:03 <@rizen> it's actually already done for you
07:03 <@rizen> take a look at the "submission form" template vs the "post form" template
07:04 <@rizen> submission form sets up the synopsis as a separate field
07:06 <+perlDreamer> that's another good thing to mention.  The marker only works if there is no explicit synopsis.
07:08 <+Radix-wrk> So is this documented anywhere currently?
07:08 <+perlDreamer> no
07:11 <+perlDreamer> it is now, but only in the template variables.
07:12 <+perlDreamer> We can't document it via hover help since there's no hover help for the Post Edit form.
07:12 <+perlDreamer> that's why a wiki article would be great
07:13 <+Radix-wrk> any ideas what the wiki article name should be called?
07:13 <+perlDreamer> rizen's righteous post content synopsis marker
07:13 <+Radix-wrk> I'll write one up now, and at least to describe how to use it in collaboration system posts
07:16 < PedersenMJ> post title: How To Add A Synopsis To Your Collaboration System Posts
07:16 <@rizen> hey pedersenmj
07:16 <@rizen> i've been meaning to talk to you
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Uh-oh...
07:17 <@rizen> one of our hosting customers just launched a new site
07:17 <@rizen> that i think you'll want to check out
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Done esta?
07:17 <@rizen> http://www.playstationnationpodcast.com/
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Donde esta, even?
07:17 <+Radix-wrk> hehe.. cool
07:17 <+Radix-wrk> burned theme
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Too cool!
07:18 < PedersenMJ> That totally took me by surprise. Thank you :)
07:18 <@rizen> so see
07:18 <@rizen> your work paid off already
07:18 <@rizen> you should do more of those for the contest we have going on right now
07:18 <+Radix-wrk> needs to be original work tho
07:18 < PedersenMJ> I'm going to. Calypso is going to go up this week. I think MultiFlex next week.
07:18 <@rizen> nope
07:19 <@rizen> i had kristi change the rules
07:19 < PedersenMJ> Dunno which one for the week after, though.
07:19 <+Radix-wrk> Oh?
07:19 <@rizen> you can use open source designs
07:19 <@rizen> provided you provide a link back to the original
07:19 <@rizen> so we know you didn't rip it off
07:19 <+Radix-wrk> Oh cool.. means I could look at entering too then
07:19 <@rizen> sweet
07:19 <+Radix-wrk> I could never do my own.. but I can rip off someone elses witht he best of them ;)
07:20 <+perlDreamer> andreas01
07:20 < PedersenMJ> Ditto here. I suck at original, but rip a theme? That's easy.
07:20 <@rizen> oh btw guys, i'll be sending out your schwag and whatnot next week for the wiki contest
07:20 <@rizen> i'm a little behind
07:20 <@rizen> sorry about that
07:21 <+Radix-wrk> np :)
07:21 < PedersenMJ> That's cool.
07:21 <@rizen> we're short two people, and i have another on vacation
07:21 <@rizen> so i'm working 4 jobs right now
07:21 <@rizen> =)
07:21 < PedersenMJ> If I'm really lucky, I can get a bit more outta the theme contest ;)
07:21 <@rizen> true
07:21 <@rizen> anyway...gotta get some sleep
07:21 <@rizen> later
07:22 < PedersenMJ> l8r
07:22 <+perlDreamer> he works too hard
07:22 <+perlDreamer> Bill should give him a raise
07:24 <@vayde> Bill?
07:24 <+perlDreamer> Gates
07:24 <@vayde> lol
07:37 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/how-to-add-a-synopsis-to-your-collaboration-system-templates
07:39 <+perlDreamer> Radix-*, you rock
07:39 <+Radix-wrk> hopefully I've explained it well enough for ppl to understand
07:44 < PedersenMJ> Radix: What are post templates?
07:47 < PedersenMJ> http://www.bash.org/?21784
07:50 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/?op=viewHelp;hid=collaboration%20post%20list%20template%20variables;namespace=Asset_Collaboration
07:50 <+perlDreamer> having re-re-vanquished the monster, our hero exists stage left
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07:51 < PedersenMJ> Damn, I didn't expect you to reply to that with anything other than a growl.
07:52 <@vayde> ugh, need sleep.  Later gents
07:53 <@preaction> you people and your "sleep"
07:53 <@preaction> it's so cute
07:53 <+Radix-wrk> cya vayde
07:53 -!- vayde [n=vayde@64-131-48-253.usfamily.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
07:53 < PedersenMJ> I'm heading for sleep too.
07:53 <+Radix-wrk> wuss
07:53 <@preaction> is it bad that i do not remember the last time i slept?
07:53 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I am. I start to pass out at 1am in a non-recoverable fashion.
07:54 < PedersenMJ> l8r all
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07:56 <+Radix-wrk> sleep probs preaction?
07:56 <@preaction> so much to do, caffiene to do it, caffiene causes inability to sleep, then eventually it becomes "if i sleep now, i won't get up in time for *"
07:57 <@preaction> like now: in order to make the meeting tomorrow at 8a, i need to drop my car off at the shop tonight, walk home. meaning another hour of wake-time
07:57 <@preaction> meaning 6.5 hours of sleep
07:57 <+Radix-wrk> better than nothing
07:57 <@preaction> as JT said, we're working more than one person's job :p
07:58 <+Radix-wrk> He mentioned that you guys are down two people - roy is one obviously.. who was the other?
08:00 <@preaction> Drake
08:00 <@preaction> left before the new year
08:00 <+Radix-wrk> He was barely a blip on the radar really
08:01 <@preaction> durno, he was hired before i was. i think instead of me actually
08:01 <+Radix-wrk> he was hired around the same time the WUC was on.. I spoke to him briefly then and he was only just starting
08:02 <+Radix-wrk> So September to December - maybe two/three months..
08:02 <@preaction> yeah, if it weren't for him, you'd've been meeting me ;)
08:02 <@preaction> 18 years old, i still can't believe it
08:02 <+Radix-wrk> eeks.. scary
08:03 <@preaction> i would've been meek kitten though, instead, when you meet me, i get to be power-webgui-god
08:03 <@preaction> i'll need a suit
08:03 <+Radix-wrk> heh
08:03 <@preaction> a white suit
08:03 <@preaction> white top hat and cane
08:03 <@preaction> unf
08:04 <+Radix-wrk> sounds like a photo op - with your gf dressed up next to ya ;)
08:05 <@preaction> pfft, i'll get my hos on my wings, boi
08:13 <@preaction> anyway, gone drop car off / sleep. cya
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11:20 < wgGuest84> hello
11:20 < wgGuest84> i need some help on troubleshooting webgui 7.3.13 installation
11:22 < wgGuest84> can I get help from somebody ?
11:23 <+Radix-wrk> wassup
11:23 <+Radix-wrk> can't guarantee i can help, but I can listen! :)
11:24 < wgGuest84> thnx
11:24 < wgGuest84> i installed webgui 7.3.13
11:24 < wgGuest84> and did all the setup
11:24 < wgGuest84> when I try to run the apache +
11:25 < wgGuest84> Starting WebGUI 7.3.13
11:25 < wgGuest84> Loading www.domain.com.conf
11:25 < wgGuest84> WebGUI Started!
11:25 < wgGuest84> usr/local/apache2/bin/apachectl: line 78:  5622 7d424e863057307e3057305f            $HTTPD -k $ARGV
11:25 < wgGuest84> and the server stops responding for a while
11:25 < wgGuest84> i checked with # /data/WebGUI/sbin/perl preload.perl 
11:25 < wgGuest84> it shows: +
11:26 < wgGuest84> Can't locate object method "server" via package "Apache2::ServerUtil" at preload.perl line 57..
11:26 < wgGuest84> i posted this trouble in forum (last message in http://www.plainblack.com/etcetera/cant-locate-object-method-server/3)
11:27 < wgGuest84> can you please give me any idea ?
11:41 < wgGuest84> r u listening Radix-wrk ?
11:43 <+Radix-wrk> Sorry.. was busy for a bit then.. lemme catch up.
11:43 <+Radix-wrk> How are you installing webgui?  are you using the WRE?
11:44 < wgGuest84> no
11:44 < wgGuest84> from source
11:44 < wgGuest84> in a centOS
11:44 <+Radix-wrk> okay.. have you checked your perl setup using /data/WebGUI/sbin/testEnvironment.pl
11:44 < wgGuest84> yes..
11:46 <+Radix-wrk> Sounds like a perl module is missing from the error message, but not sure what it would be I'm afraid.
11:46 <+Radix-wrk> Any particular reason you're not using the WRE?
11:46 < wgGuest84> i checked.. Apache2::ServerUtil is there
11:47 < wgGuest84> actually I am preparing a development server.. where there will be a lots of changes in source
11:47 <+Radix-wrk> WebGUI has a lot of perl dependencies, and the WRE is the recommended installation method for this very reason
11:48 <+Radix-wrk> there is a WRE installation for centos though, and it makes life soooo much easier
11:48 <+Radix-wrk> that's what we're using
11:48 < wgGuest84> actually I used another previous version before 
11:48 < wgGuest84> 7.3... 
11:49 < wgGuest84> i installed from source that time..
11:49 < wgGuest84> but didnt face such problem
11:49 < wgGuest84> it's a requirement anyway to install from the source
11:49 < wgGuest84> i am stucked with this error from yesterday :(
11:50 <+Radix-wrk> I don't know I'm afraid.. it sounds like there's a missing perl module that isn't tested in testEnvironment, but not sure how to fix it offhand.
11:50 <+Radix-wrk> Most of the developers are asleep at the moment, preaction and rizen might be able to tell you what it is when they wake up.
11:51 < wgGuest84> could u have a look in the details of my problem that i posted in the forum?
11:51 <+Radix-wrk> but that probably won't be for several hours - it's the middle of the night for them atm
11:51 < wgGuest84> i c
11:51 <+Radix-wrk> yeah, I've had a look - I'm not that familiar with the source install and perl modules needed these days tho
11:51 < wgGuest84> i c
11:51 <+Radix-wrk> I use Centos myself, but I installed the WRE for it
11:51 <+Radix-wrk> it is THE best way to install webgui - without a doubt
11:52 <+Radix-wrk> I can do a base install of webgui on centos within minutes
11:52 <+Radix-wrk> using the wre for rhel4
11:52 < wgGuest84> but since there is a source release.. that is of some use surely like we are using..:)
11:53 < wgGuest84> in fact webGUI did great on our last project..
11:53 <+Radix-wrk> Yeah, I haven't used a source install since version 6.8 tho
11:53 < wgGuest84> so, what do u suggest as of now ?
11:53 <+Radix-wrk> I was having odd issues with perl modules on my previous setup and when i switched to the WRE they all went away - I've been with the WRE ever since
11:54 <+Radix-wrk> I'd highly recommend taking a look at the WRE if you can
11:54 <+Radix-wrk> if you must stick with a source install, I'd come back in say 5-6 hours and try and catch preaction or rizen
11:54 < wgGuest84> is it like.. installing from WRE then I can use the source installation ?
11:55 <+Radix-wrk> the WRE gives you all of the perl source if that's what you mean
11:55 <+Radix-wrk> the WRE is a tar.gz file that contains everything you need to run WebGUI - all the perl modules, mysql, apache, etc all in one big file
11:56 <+Radix-wrk> well.. kinda.. it downloads the latest webgui source and installs that really
11:56 <+Radix-wrk> the WRE is everything you need to RUN webgui
11:56 < wgGuest84> o..the team leader just solved the problem
11:56 < wgGuest84> webGUI is now running fine
11:56 <+Radix-wrk> excellent
11:56 <+Radix-wrk> what was it then?
11:58 <+Radix-wrk> I'd still recommend the WRE.  Using the wre simplifies upgrades and comes with fully preconfigured apache optimised for webgui.  It also has some nice scripts to quickly add new webgui websites with ease
11:59 <+Radix-wrk> it also makes backing up and cloning a webgui setup so much easier - just copy one directory onto a blank system.
11:59 < wgGuest84> sorry.. was talking to him
11:59 <+Radix-wrk> No probs
11:59 < wgGuest84> actually he changed some settings in apache-> httpd.conf
11:59 < wgGuest84> he added user "daemon" and Group "daemon" 
12:00 < wgGuest84> probably its the spectre who needs those
12:00 <+Radix-wrk> wierd.. didn't sound like that was where the problem was to me.. but if it fixed it who am I to argue! :)
12:00 < wgGuest84> :)
12:01 < wgGuest84> yeah.. the error message was misleading
12:01 <+Radix-wrk> I'm afraid I'm gonna head off.. 5pm here (and 6pm for you I suspect) - have a good easter! :)
12:01 < wgGuest84> o..thanks
12:01 < wgGuest84> it ws nice talking to u
12:01 <+Radix-wrk> Do itashimashite!
12:01 < wgGuest84> wow !!
12:01 < wgGuest84> u know japanese
12:01 < wgGuest84> btw... where r u ?
12:02 <+Radix-wrk> I know a little
12:02 <+Radix-wrk> from Perth, Western Australia
12:02 < wgGuest84> i c
12:02 < wgGuest84> one question if u dont mind
12:02 <+Radix-wrk> I've been to tokyo though and know a lot of japanese :)
12:02 < wgGuest84> how can i join this irc channel from visual iRC
12:02 < wgGuest84> ( that's cool :) )
12:02 <+Radix-wrk> jump on the server irc.freenode.net I think and the channel is #webgui
12:03 < wgGuest84> i couldnt find irc.freenode.net.. actually I am not much used to use IRC
12:03 <+Radix-wrk> try using something like /server irc.freenode.net and it should get you here
12:03 <+Radix-wrk> then /join #webgui
12:03 < wgGuest84> o...i will try.. 
12:04 < wgGuest84> thanks a lot for ur help
12:04 <+Radix-wrk> no probs.. hope to see you here more often in future!
12:04 < wgGuest84> i hope too :)
12:04 <+Radix-wrk> lots of useful and interesting stuff gets discussed here, so worthwhile dropping in and idling like I do :)
12:04 < wgGuest84> that's good.. i would like to do that..
12:04 <+Radix-wrk> ja ne!
12:05 < wgGuest84> arigatou-gozaimasu
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13:08 < syedm> nick sstanvir
13:09 -!- syedm is now known as sstanvir
13:09 <+Radix_> Home! :)
13:10 < sstanvir> good :)
13:10 < sstanvir> so.. that ws ur work nick Radix_wrk ?
13:10 <+Radix_> yup
13:10 < sstanvir> i ws also thinking so
13:11 < sstanvir> mystery is my problem came back again :(
13:12 <+Radix_> what do the apache logs say?
13:12 <+Radix_> and what is in webgui.log
13:12 <+Radix_> perlbot paste
13:12 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
13:12 < sstanvir> in the apache log nothing
13:12 <+Radix_> You can paste the info using one of those instead of spamming it to the channel
13:13 < sstanvir> i c, ok
13:13 < sstanvir> thnx for the info
13:13 <+Radix_> np
13:13 < sstanvir> but I dont want to disturb u with the issues 
13:13 < sstanvir> otsukare-sama-desu :)
13:14 <+Radix_> With your dev box.. do you have anything else on it?
13:14 <+Radix_> or is it set up just for webgui?
13:15 < sstanvir> its newly setup
13:15 <+Radix_> If it's just for webgui, then there's absolutely no reason not to use the WRE
13:15 <+Radix_> you can install the wre and webgui within minutes on a blank centos box
13:15 < sstanvir> actuallly what is the difference between the WRE and the source release ?
13:16 <+Radix_> the WRE is everything you need to run WebGUI - so it's a special distribution of apache/mysql/perl and all the perl modules webgui depends on.  It also includes scripts to help you get started quickly with Webgui.
13:17 <+Radix_> It doesn't actually include webgui itself - it downloads that as part of the setup
13:17 < sstanvir> i c
13:18 < sstanvir> brb
13:20 <+Radix_> with centos I generally do a basic install, no mysql, apache, perl, etc at all installed
13:20 <+Radix_> then you install the wre and run the setup
13:20 < sstanvir> understood
13:21 < sstanvir> actually it depends on the team leader.. I will try to convince him
13:21 <+Radix_> the only gotcha I've found is you need to make sure you delete any /etc/my.cnf files that might be there
13:22 <+Radix_> I might point out that the WRE is the recommended method for using webgui according to plainblack - and the best way to get support also
13:22 <+Radix_> there's info in the wiki on doing an install too
13:23 < sstanvir> yes.. i checked the web
13:24 < sstanvir> it looks simple to install from the wre.. 
13:25 <+Radix_> it is.. it's great :)
13:25 < sstanvir> you already convinced me
13:25 <+Radix_> good.. my job is done here then ;)
13:25 < sstanvir> haha
13:26 < sstanvir> but now is the toughest part to convince the Tl 
13:26 < sstanvir> anyway...
13:26 < sstanvir> thanks a lot for ur time
13:26 <+Radix_> Good luck! :)
13:26 <+Radix_> time for me to get supplies for the easter long weekend here :)
13:26 <+Radix_> four days holiday have just started for me :)
13:26 < sstanvir> wow!
13:27 < sstanvir> i am sure u have lots of plans
13:27 <+Radix_> got a friend's wedding to attend, and looks like we might be doing some archery and some karaoke this weekend too.. should be fun! :)
13:27 < sstanvir> great
13:27 < sstanvir> Have a nice holidays !!
13:28 < sstanvir> Catch you again!
13:29 < sstanvir> bye
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15:04 < nuba> nice holidays folks!
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18:20 < SDuensin> Good morningish.
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20:51 < perlmonkey2> quiet today
20:51 <+perlDreamer> muy
20:51 < perlmonkey2> webgui religious holiday?
20:51 <+perlDreamer> how goes the Moose rewrite?
20:51 < perlmonkey2> heh
20:51 < perlmonkey2> I think I'll focus my extra time on p6.
20:52 <+perlDreamer> I did some p6 test suite hacking for a few weeks
20:52 <+perlDreamer> then the spec changed from under me
20:52 <+perlDreamer> so I worked around it
20:52 <+perlDreamer> then it changed again, and I gave up
20:52 < perlmonkey2> a very fluid dev env.
20:53 <+perlDreamer> it is
20:53 <+perlDreamer> which allows for very powerful dynamics
20:53 <+perlDreamer> but also exposes you to lots of criticism from outside observers
20:54 < perlmonkey2> I only take criticism from Perl::Critic.
20:54 < perlmonkey2> or anyone else who bothers to tell me my work is crap ;)
21:10 <@vayde> We need a wG forum/nick translation hash.
21:13 <+perlDreamer> can gooeybot help us?
21:14 <+perlDreamer> or perlbot?
21:14 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: rizen?
21:16 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: perlDreamer?
21:22 -!- MrHairgreas1 [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #webgui
21:24 <@vayde> :q
21:24 <@vayde> oops, wrong window ;P
21:25 <+perlDreamer> Never quit, never surrender
21:25 <@vayde> that file couldn't handle any more attention from me
21:25 <@vayde> the wimp
22:12 < ckotil> perlbot channel log
22:14 <@rizen> perlbot: perlbot?
22:14 < perlbot> Perl OO tricks and examples - http://perldoc.perl.org/perlbot.html
22:15 < ckotil> perlbot: log
22:15 < ckotil> perlbot: log?
22:16 < ckotil> bah, perlbot isnt playing nice
22:16 <@rizen> perlbot, rizen is JT, the creator of WebGUI, aka TMRFE
22:16 < perlbot> added rizen to the database
22:16 <@rizen> perlbot: rizen?
22:16 < perlbot> JT, the creator of WebGUI, aka TMRFE
22:16 <@rizen> perlbot, perlDreamer is Colin Kuskie, Contributor of the Year, and jack of all trades
22:16 < perlbot> added perlDreamer to the database
22:17 <@rizen> how's that for your pd?
22:18 <@rizen> perlbot, vayde Nik Ogura, aka bengchoi, aka Nik, is a WebGUI padawan learner
22:18 < perlbot> added vayde Nik Ogura, aka bengchoi, aka Nik, to the database
22:19 <@rizen> perlbot vayde?
22:19 <@rizen> perlbot forget vayde Nik Ogura, aka bengchoi, aka Nik,
22:19 < perlbot> removed vayde Nik Ogura, aka bengchoi, aka Nik, from the database
22:19 <@rizen> perlbot, vayde is Nik Ogura, aka bengchoi, aka Nik, is a WebGUI padawan learner
22:19 < perlbot> added vayde to the database
22:21 < MrHairgreas1> perlbot TMRFE?
22:21 < perlbot> The Man Responsible For Everything -- Sometimes you DO have someone to blame.
22:22 < MrHairgreas1> perlbot pomade?
22:22 < MrHairgreas1> perlbot MrHairgrease
22:22 < MrHairgreas1> perlbot MrHairgrease?
22:25 <@vayde> Jeez, I pop off for a bite, and everyone's talking about me behind my back
22:33 <@rizen> perlbot, MrHairGrease is Martin Kamerbeek, aka MrCookingGrease, aka Eurotrash with sex appeal, and is a Contributor of the Year
22:33 < perlbot> added MrHairGrease to the database
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22:34 -!- MrHairgreas1 is now known as MrHairgrease
22:34 -!- mode/#webgui [+v MrHairgrease] by ChanServ
22:35 <+MrHairgrease> perlbot maxscience?
22:35 <+MrHairgrease> perlbot iPhoneGuy?
22:35 -!- Hinrik [n=hinrik@dsl-228-236.hive.is] has joined #webgui
22:35 <+MrHairgrease> ha well, ignorance is bliss i think
22:37 <@rizen> perlbot, maxscience is iPhoneGuy, some ridiculous bastard from Italy that bitches as loud as he can scream, but is unwilling to lift a finger to help out
22:37 < perlbot> added maxscience to the database
22:38 <@vayde> sounds like there's quite a story there
22:38 <@preaction> what's the WebGUI::Commerce::Item->handler sub for? is it executed after the item is purchased?
22:38 <@preaction> after checkout, say?
22:39 <@rizen> dont' know...i'd have to track it down in the code
22:39 <@rizen> perhaps MrHairGrease knows
22:39 <@preaction> the docs for the sub say "this executes the handler". no real description of its actual purpose
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> the handler is executed on payment
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> it handles the group timeout extension for subscriptions for instance
22:47 <@preaction> when the transaction is completed, i see now
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> and also on complete recurring payments
22:47 <@preaction> which means technically there's no cart at that moment, correct?
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> yes
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> well
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> i would think so
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> it has been some time since i last looked at it
22:49 <@preaction> the idea is this: i need the ID of the cart that the item belonged to
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> carts don't don't have an id
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> a cart i tied to a session
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> maybe you mean the transaction id?
22:49 <@preaction> then how do carts survive across sessions?
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> they don't
22:50 <@preaction> how can i logout and log back in and still have items in my cart?
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> oh
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> let me see
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> i know
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> if you log out
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> your session id stays the same
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> but visiutor is tied to it
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> that must be it
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> WG::C::ShoppingCart->new doesn't have any userId awareness
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> only sessionId
22:57 <@vayde> Is there an easy way to tell when a modification was placed into the core?  Right now I'm doing it the hard way, but downloading the old version, untarring it and looking at the file.  We're all way to lazy to put up with that b.s. for long
22:58 <@preaction> svn blame
22:58 <@preaction> gives you the revision number of lines of the code iirc
22:59 <@vayde> thanks 
23:02 <@vayde> Ok, now having found the right svn version, how do I relate that to an actual release?  (I'm very new to svn)
23:11 <@preaction> http://svn.webgui.org <- look up the messages around the revision, the first one that says "X.X.X released" is the version it was in
23:11 <@vayde> ahh.  little things that make all the difference.  thanks
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23:32 <@vayde> Wow, JT asked me about the picture of me on my studio website, so I sent him an older one, his reaction was so violent that it crashed both my IRC client, and Gaim.
23:32 <@vayde> Now that's some bad-assed kung fu!
23:33 <+MrHairgrease> show it! show it!
23:33 <@vayde> um, how do I do that here?  It's not online
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> oh
23:34 <+perlDreamer> post it on PB.com in the contribs area?
23:34 <@preaction> >_> <_> <_<
23:34 <+perlDreamer> email it out?
23:34 <@preaction> ^(--@^@--)>
23:34 <@preaction> youtube!
23:34 <@preaction> show us the monsters!
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> http://www.themonsters.ch
23:35 <+MrHairgrease> tomorrow I'm gonna see them play in utrecht
23:36 <@preaction> nice
23:37 <+perlDreamer> they suck.  Their website uses frames.
23:38 <+MrHairgrease> who cares
23:38 <+MrHairgrease> I'm not going all the way to utrecht just to watch their stupid website =)
23:38 <@vayde> http://www.uma-mn.com/Pics/Rennaissance.JPG
23:39 <@vayde> that's about 12 - 15 yrs old
23:39 <@vayde> 12-15 years ago anyway
23:39 <@vayde> http://www.uma-mn.com/Pics/img_2672.jpg
23:39 <@vayde> that's last year
23:39  * MrHairgrease 's gaim is about to implode
23:40 <+MrHairgrease> what is it?
23:40 <+MrHairgrease> some kind of medieval reenaction?
23:40 <@vayde> the thing next to the girl is me
23:41 <+MrHairgrease> didn't know you ware red dresses
23:41 <@vayde> heh
23:41 <+MrHairgrease> there's that eurotrash humor for you =)
23:41 <+MrHairgrease> don't even try to laugh
23:43 <@vayde> I sincerely you don't have girls over there with as much facial hair as I have.
23:44 <+MrHairgrease> who can what's what with all these costumes
23:44 <+MrHairgrease> can tell*
23:44 <@vayde> what can I say, that's how the gf makes a living, working up those court gowns
23:46 <+MrHairgrease> ok
23:47 <+MrHairgrease> but i can imagine jt's reaction
23:48 <@vayde> he brought it up
23:50 < SDuensin> Dang vayde - looked at your pics.  Now I want to go to Pennsic again.
23:50 <@vayde> Pennsic?
23:51  * SDuensin smacks his head
23:51 < SDuensin> Only the largest SCA event ever.
23:51 <@vayde> Ahh.
23:51 < SDuensin> http://www.pennsic.net/
23:51 <@vayde> I had bad experiences with the SVA crowd.  I hope they're better these days
23:52 < SDuensin> Probably depends on the group.  I've never had problems myself.  Now some other groups, that's a different story.
23:52 <@vayde> One incident when I was berated for my heraldic design from a guy who was wearing a metal watch, photogrey glasses, and had his armor held together with duct tape
23:52 < SDuensin> hehehehe
23:58 < SDuensin> You'd have been proud of me.  Some chick with frickin' skull and crossbones tights and elf ears wandered into our camp.  I chased her off with Yard Guard.
23:59 <@vayde> LOL
23:59 < SDuensin> "We're gypsies!"  No, you're morons.
--- Day changed Fri Apr 06 2007
00:00 < SDuensin> I'm no authenticity police, but man, come on - at least try.  Elf ears?!
00:00  * SDuensin doesn't mind the Coke can at feast.
00:01 <@vayde> I have fun.  The gf's daughter is 16, and very popular with the lads.  I get to growl and stomp.  "Hi there you must be the new vict- er boyfriend"
00:01 < SDuensin> ehhehe
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00:26 <+perlDreamer> maybe they'd like to come to the 5-year old class to help out?
00:27 <+perlDreamer> They're only five years old, after all...
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00:32 <@rizen> i need some opinions
00:32 <@rizen> who's got em to spare?
00:32 <+MrHairgrease> sure
00:32 <+perlDreamer> yo
00:32 <@rizen> http://jt.plainblack.com/uploads/DZ/Hu/DZHuIEGTBk7z_HU-JOW-iw/Webgui-site-rev4.jpg
00:32 <+MrHairgrease> positive or negative?
00:32 <@rizen> honest
00:33 <+MrHairgrease> you suck =)
00:33 <@rizen> this is the potential design for the new webgui.org
00:33 <@rizen> split off from plainblack.com
00:33 <@rizen> i'm pretty happy with it
00:33 <@rizen> but before we proceed, i'd like a few gut reactions
00:33 <+perlDreamer> not bad for a front page
00:34 <+MrHairgrease> the design is good
00:34 <+MrHairgrease> but i don't like the yellow
00:34 <+perlDreamer> what does real front page look like (the one that analogs pb.com/support)?
00:34 <@rizen> pd, this isn't about content
00:34 <@rizen> this is about style
00:34 <+MrHairgrease> what is good
00:34 <+MrHairgrease> at least i guess
00:35 <+MrHairgrease> is that is does not have the generic-clean-look that mambo and joomla etc have
00:35 <+MrHairgrease> it kinda makes it stand out
00:35 <+MrHairgrease> otoh those 'clean' layouts have a more professional touch
00:36 <+MrHairgrease> sober like the tax department
00:37 <+MrHairgrease> also
00:37 <@rizen> i think it looks clean, it's just not sparse like those
00:37 <+MrHairgrease> i don't like the blue webgui logo
00:37 <@rizen> the logo is orange like always
00:37 <+MrHairgrease> left of that
00:37 <@rizen> or do you mean the font that says "webgui"
00:37 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
00:37 <+MrHairgrease> the font is just not my thing
00:38 <@rizen> ok, it's one thing to say that you don't like the colors (yellow background, blue font), but i need to know why
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> it has this 90's a have website appeal
00:38 <@rizen> without the why, i can't change it to something good
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> ok
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> let me think on how to word that
00:38 <@rizen> so you also don't like the modern font?
00:38 <@rizen> in addition to the color?
00:40 <+MrHairgrease> yes
00:40 <+MrHairgrease> and it's background
00:40 <+MrHairgrease> it just doesn't fit in with the rest
00:40 <@vayde> I think the yellow draws the attention away from the content.  It should frame it, point it up, not overwhelm it
00:40 <+MrHairgrease> i guess why i don't like the color is
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> b/c their 'weak' 
00:41 <+perlDreamer> it needs more content area
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> i know the dutch word
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> but i dunno the translation
00:41 <@vayde> more content area, yeah.  content seems buried
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> no
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> little content on the frontpage is good
00:41 <+MrHairgrease> people will only read two lines or so
00:41 <+perlDreamer> but rizen said this is "the style"
00:42 <+perlDreamer> are sub-page style different rizen?
00:42 <@vayde> right, but that's what we're talking about
00:42 <+MrHairgrease> the download button is good
00:42 <+MrHairgrease> very visible
00:42 <@vayde> not necessarily what the content is, but the balance between the content area and the stuff on the left seems visually off.
00:43 <+perlDreamer> the links to the forums and wiki needs to be as visible
00:44 <@rizen> the design you're looking at is the front page design, but all the other pages will be a variation on a theme
00:44 <@rizen> for example
00:44 <+MrHairgrease> yeah, but that's those three buttons below the content right?
00:44 <+perlDreamer> if so, then I'm happy
00:44 <@rizen> the banner for the webgui conference is will not be on every page, that's only to show off an example crown
00:45 <@rizen> on most content pages, the content section will be pushed up
00:45 <+MrHairgrease> what i mean by colors and visibility is eg. the firebug page
00:45 <+MrHairgrease> http://www.getfirebug.com/
00:45 <+MrHairgrease> strong colors
00:45 <@rizen> also the page will be stretchy, it won't be limited to the width you're seeing it at now
00:45 <+MrHairgrease> big content that says what the stuff does
00:45 <@rizen> so there will be plenty of room for content
00:45 <+MrHairgrease> and a big install me button
00:45 <+perlDreamer> Let me roll up my opinion.  I like it.  It's bright and different without looking bad.  Links to wiki and forum need to be prominent and content areas should be maximized .
00:46 <@rizen> on the pages that need it the yellow strip on the right side will be stretched out, and the "recent discussion" macro will go in there
00:47 <@rizen> MrHairGrease, I could also argue that the colors of the firebug site are weak
00:47 <@rizen> mustard yellow is not a weak color
00:47 <@rizen> it's not like canary yellow
00:47 <+MrHairgrease> you asked my my opinion
00:47 <+perlDreamer> how does Gooey look on there?  does he clash?
00:47 <+MrHairgrease> that's one of the few things that is not negotiable with me =)
00:48 <@rizen> i know...and i'm not trying to say that your opinion is wrong, just that i don't agree that the colors are weak
00:48 <+MrHairgrease> what i mean with weak is their too pastel for my tastes
00:48 <@rizen> gooey looks great
00:48 <@rizen> gooey is pastel you moron
00:48 <@rizen> =)
00:48 <+MrHairgrease> never said i liked gooey too =)
00:49 <+perlDreamer> watch out, them's fighting words!
00:49 <+perlDreamer> insulting a project's mascot is like making a website in baby-puke yellow
00:49 <+MrHairgrease> never had any children
00:49 <@rizen> purple and yellow are great colors together...that's part of the reason we chose yellow as the background color here
00:49 <+MrHairgrease> wouldn't know what that looks like
00:49 <@rizen> purple and yellow are the colors of royalty
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> ha
00:50 <+perlDreamer> trust me on this one, MHG.  Given the bilious nature of stomach acid, it's baby-puke yellow.
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> the only royalty i care for is royaly sized drinks
00:50 <@vayde> not to mention the colors of the MN Vikings
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> pd: thanks for the tip
00:50 <+perlDreamer> But this is Wisconsin.....?
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> i'll put children on hold for even longer =)
00:51  * SDuensin still doesn't like the yellow.
00:51 <@rizen> webgui is bigger than wisconsin
00:51 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease, if you weaken and need a refresher, we can take care of you.
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> pd thanks
00:51 <@rizen> SDuensin...is it because you don't like yellow as a color, or the particular yellows that we've chosen?
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> nice to be able to count on people
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> rizen, with weak is meant pale
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> that's the word i was looking for
00:52 < SDuensin> I just don't care for it as the base color on a web site.
00:53 <@rizen> so your bias is against yellow in general then
00:53 <@rizen> not specifically the colors we've chosen
00:53 < SDuensin> Yea
00:55 <@rizen> ok...quick poll...who here won't like this design no matter what variety of yellow we put on it?
00:56 <+MrHairgrease> it's not really my taste
00:56 < SDuensin> Design is fine with me.  The font on the lozenges is a bit hard to read.
00:57 <@vayde> the lozenge font is hard to read
00:57 <@rizen> we'll be using a different font on the lozenge when we go out, cuz i can't read it either
00:57 <@vayde> the Z's could be taken for an attempt at a lower case L
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> it's the same font as the webgui image
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> next to the logo
00:58 <@rizen> yeah, but big you can read it. small you can't
00:58 <@rizen> some fonts are just like that
00:58 <@vayde> It's cool, it just takes a couple more seconds to decipher
01:23 <+MrHairgrease> vayde don't you worry about that photo you sent jt
01:23 <+MrHairgrease> check this out:
01:23 <+MrHairgrease> http://jt.plainblack.com/uploads/ph/Wv/phWv1xzJkxfxxHor9fVVew/jt_face.jpg
01:24 <@rizen> that's a beautiful face
01:25 <+perlDreamer> it's the face of death!
01:25 <+perlDreamer> or at least badly hungover
01:25 <@rizen> this is an even better close-up, you can really see the detail in the eyes
01:25 <@rizen> http://www.bownds.net/uploads/xW/WS/xWWS5RE23tXxpVwiFQbtkg/jteyes-small.jpg
01:26 <@preaction> remind me to never do anything to annoy JT again
01:26 <+perlDreamer> don't call him sweetie, preaction
01:26 <@preaction> checkaroonie
01:26 <+perlDreamer> it makes his eyeballs spin in the other direction
01:26 <@rizen> oooh...and the hand tatoo http://www.bownds.net/uploads/xW/WS/xWWS5RE23tXxpVwiFQbtkg/jt_side.jpg
01:26 <+MrHairgrease> perlbot carebare is the ever cuddly rizen
01:26 < perlbot> added carebare to the database
01:26 <@preaction> rizen: LARP?
01:27 <@rizen> nope...halloween 2002
01:27 <@preaction> ah
01:27 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: LARP?
01:27 <+MrHairgrease> ha
01:27 <+perlDreamer> Los Angeles Riot Police?
01:27 <@rizen> a little less scary in 2004: http://www.bownds.net/uploads/nW/GU/nWGUUFrr4y5NA-9ko6xt4w/jt_and_sarah_as_fred_and_wilma.jpg
01:27 <@preaction> perlbot LARP is Live-Action Role Playing -- One of the last vestiges of the uber-geek.
01:27 < perlbot> added LARP to the database
01:27 <+MrHairgrease> the 2nd image does remind me of something
01:29 <@rizen> what jt would look like if he were dutch: http://www.bownds.net/uploads/K-/K4/K-K4NLygFyXYXeTJNUru3Q/PICT1224.JPG
01:29 <@preaction> rizen: so I have this fix for the EMS / gama problem. What should I do with existing shopping carts / sessions that will create problems (since they don't have matching entries in the new table)? should i just delete them? expire the session perhaps? or just leave a note in the gotchas?
01:30 <+MrHairgrease> oh man
01:30 <+MrHairgrease> i really need wooden shoes now
01:30 <@vayde> dear sweet god!
01:30 <@rizen> leave a note in the gotchas
01:30 <@preaction> k
01:30 <@rizen> and write some sort of an sql report that we can give to gama
01:30 <@rizen> so they can sort out the mess
01:32 <+MrHairgrease> ewww
01:32 <+MrHairgrease> never new ryan could be so gross
01:32 <+MrHairgrease> http://jt.plainblack.com/uploads/R3/yz/R3yzI23c8d_3a9gGj9Msmg/ryan_kristi.jpg
01:37 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
01:37 <+MrHairgrease> time for those sweet dreams
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02:22 <@preaction> rizen: should i go ahead and install the fix for gama? or will they have to wait for 7.3.15? there's an upgrade script, so i'd think wait, but the upgrade script will still work if it just happens to be run multiple times (create table if not exists)
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02:25 <@rizen> if it will still work
02:25 <@rizen> then install it now
02:25 <@preaction> k
02:25 <@rizen> be sure to backup their database before installing
02:25 <@preaction> will do
03:49 < SDuensin> Muhahahaha - got WebGUI 7.3.14 running on my host.  So easy!
03:54 < SDuensin> Used the RHLE4 WRE.  My host is running CentOS4.  Works like a champ.
04:04 <@preaction> woohoo!
04:06 <@preaction> i'm starting to understand the Event Management System. and i feel dirty
04:07 < SDuensin> hehehe
04:07  * SDuensin feels guilty for not hosting with PB.
04:08 <@preaction> why? it's good to get more spread for webgui
04:08 <@preaction> of course, why CentOS? why not ubuntu or debian?
04:09 < SDuensin> That's what my host uses.  I have a "virtual private server".  Full root access to do whatever I want.  $60 a month.  Not bad at all.
04:09 <@preaction> not bad indeed
04:11 < SDuensin> Think it's safe to move a MySQL database by copying the files instead of doing a dump/reload?
04:11 <@preaction> no
04:12 < SDuensin> :-)
04:12 <@preaction> unless the server is shut down
04:12 <@preaction> then ... good luck
04:12 < SDuensin> That was my gut feeling.
04:12  * SDuensin has to move a mess of WebGUI sites to the new host.
04:12 <@preaction> make a remote login to one of the mysql servers, then it's as simple as:
04:13 <@preaction> mysqldump -hhost1 <db1> | mysql -hhost2 <db2>
04:13 < SDuensin> Yea.  I used to do that to back up databases on a point of sale system I wrote.
04:13 <@preaction> and then: scp -r host1:/data/domains host2:/data
04:14 <@preaction> shell programming is fun
04:14 < SDuensin> :-)
04:14 <@rizen> you should feel dirty for touching the ems, but not for understanding it
04:31 <@vayde> So, no problems with wG on a virtual private server?
04:33 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
04:33 < PedersenMJ> hey all
04:35 <@vayde> rizen, does a 'virtual private server' entail any special conditions for wG?
04:35 < SDuensin> Nope, vayde.  I simply turned off the existing Apache and loaded the WRE.
04:35 -!- sstanvir [n=Tanvir@s208148.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #webgui
04:35 <@vayde> cool.  I had my old ISP asking for details about it.
04:36 <@rizen> nope. no special conditions
04:36 <@rizen> but you'll need a hell of a lot of ram in the physical server
04:36 <@rizen> because each VPS will need at least 512 to make webgui run
04:36 <@rizen> and it better be a multiprocessor box as well
04:37 < SDuensin> It is.  :-)
04:37 < SDuensin> Could have more RAM, but I can get more later:   http://www.liquidweb.com/shared/plan4.htm
04:39 < sstanvir> hello
04:39 < sstanvir> I need some help
04:39 <@rizen> very cool sd
04:40 <@rizen> we'd like to offer vps, but it's just not worth it financially to us. you have to sell a lot of them to make it worth while
04:40 <@rizen> plus we can't offer it cheap enough
04:40 <@rizen> what sort of help sstanvir?
04:40 < SDuensin> Yea.  Like I said, I feel bad for not using PB, but I can't beat that price.  (And I can't afford PB.)
04:40 < sstanvir> thnx for reply
04:41 <@vayde> I know a guy locally that will do it for $25/month.  Not sure what the hardware or details are though
04:41 < sstanvir> i posted the details here+
04:41 < sstanvir> http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help/fresh-installation-of-webgui-7.3.13?layout=nested#idlOK_myX1AqKV_SeSmHWhZw
04:41 < sstanvir> and here +
04:41 < sstanvir> http://www.plainblack.com/etcetera/cant-locate-object-method-server/2/re-cant-locate-object-method-server
04:41 < sstanvir> (the last message)
04:42 < sstanvir> i guess both relates to same problem.. may be due to perl installation ...
04:43 < PedersenMJ> sstanvir: Hang on, I run Debian unstable/testing at home, and have it working. That's a missing package. Lemme get the list.
04:44 < PedersenMJ> gooeybot pastebin
04:44 < sstanvir> ok
04:44 < PedersenMJ> Dang, need a pastebin site, and can never remember where they are.
04:44 < PedersenMJ> perlbot tell me about pastebin
04:44 < sstanvir> (FYI: i am installing in a CentOS)
04:45 <@rizen> perlbot paste?
04:45 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
04:45 < SDuensin> I just installed WebGUI on CentOS 4 using the RHLE4 WRE.  Worked like a champ.
04:45 < sstanvir> but I am installing from the source.. and I have to install from the source 
04:45 < PedersenMJ> http://sial.org/pbot/24040
04:46 <@rizen> what are the results of the following commands:
04:46 <@rizen> which perl
04:46 <@rizen> perl -v
04:46 < SDuensin> You have to?  Why?
04:46 < sstanvir> which perl -? /usr/local/bin/perl
04:47 < sstanvir> perl -v - > This is perl, v5.8.8 built for i686-linux ....
04:48 < sstanvir> SDuensin is asking the reason for installing from source? well.. actually I am preparing a development server for a project
04:48 < sstanvir> and most vital reason is..it's the order from the management to install from the source :(
04:49 < SDuensin> Oh yea.  Very familiar with that reason.
04:49 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... Couldn't you do that by downloading the WRE source file, and compile that?
04:50 < sstanvir> actually I can't argue with that.. there are lots of policies.. or reasons
04:50 < sstanvir> and obviously there is some reason to release webgui source.. right ?
04:50 < PedersenMJ> Wait, I didn't read *your* part of the post, sstanvir: Your problem is more basic than that. Unless you *are* running www.domain.com
04:51 < PedersenMJ> spectre.conf - POE::Kernel::_dispatch_event[1012] - ADMIN: Couldn't connect to WebGUI site www.domain.com.conf
04:51 < sstanvir> ok..please read the post. if u have some time
04:51 < PedersenMJ> I did. I think.
04:51 < sstanvir> ok
04:52 < sstanvir> as per my knowledge I installed all the modules 
04:52 < sstanvir> but perl preloade.perl says.. can't find Apache2::ServerUtil-> server
04:52 < PedersenMJ> Where did you install WebGUI to? /data/WebGUI ?
04:52 < sstanvir> right
04:53 < PedersenMJ> ls /data/WebGUI/etc/*.conf
04:53 < sstanvir> well: +
04:54 < sstanvir> log.conf spectre.conf  www.domain.com.conf
04:54 < PedersenMJ> Okay: Are you the webhost for domain.com ?
04:55 < sstanvir> you mean DNS ?
04:55 < PedersenMJ> No, I mean: Are you running the computer that will serve the pages if I point my browser to http://www.domain.com/
04:56 < sstanvir> we are just using a name for development.. moreover it's machine that doesn't even have a real IP
04:57 < PedersenMJ> That's fine. But, unless I'm mistaken (and about to get a smackdown for it) spectre (a very critical piece of webgui) must be able to connect to what it *thinks* is a real domain.
04:57 <@preaction> you can use /etc/hosts to point spectre in the right direction
04:57 <@preaction> but don't use "domain.com", use "example.com", which is actually set aside by the ICANN for use in things like this
04:57 <@preaction> or just use "localhost"
04:57 < PedersenMJ> Yes, perfect suggestion. I was thinking I was going to need to find a good dns tutorial :)
04:58 < sstanvir> actually instead of domain we used some name   [domain].com
04:59 <@preaction> mais oui
04:59 < sstanvir> i also did the installation of webgui before with webgui7...  some version.. 
04:59 < sstanvir> that time there was no such problem
04:59 < sstanvir> so.. what r u suggesting..
05:00 < sstanvir> i have to have the same name in /etc/host as the www.domain.com.conf _
05:00 < sstanvir> ?
05:00 < PedersenMJ> Spectre is relatively new. I don't know which version started requiring it, but it was in the 7.x series. I think it was 7.2.
05:00 <@preaction> your server has to know what it is, right?
05:00 <@preaction> 6.99 started spectre
05:00 <@preaction> which was the beta for 7.0
05:01 < sstanvir> (i installed 7.3.5 or 7.3.6 i guess before)
05:01 < PedersenMJ> 7.3.5 is a version that I *know* required spectre in order to operate properly.
05:02 < sstanvir> i know.. because I read about spectre and prepared some documents for office internal use on the configuration issues
05:04 < sstanvir> i found there are two different directory structure for perl in the server:
05:04 < sstanvir> one is in /usr/local/lib/perl5
05:04 <@rizen> yeah, if you're using perl out of /usr/local
05:04 < PedersenMJ> BTW, sstanvir: I just ran "perl preload.perl" from the command line, and got the same issue (unable to locate method server), even though WebGUI runs fine.
05:04 <@rizen> then you also have one in /usr/bin
05:05 < sstanvir> other is /usr/lib/perl5
05:05 <@rizen> are you using the apache that came with centos?
05:05 < sstanvir> i installed separately ..2.0.59
05:05 <@rizen> and you told that new apache specifically where your new perl is?
05:05 < sstanvir> yes..u mean in httpd.conf?
05:05 <@rizen> no..i mean at compile time
05:06 <@rizen> when you compiled modperl
05:06 <@rizen> you had to tell it which perl to use
05:06 <@rizen> if you didn't do that, then it's probably using the /usr/bin version
05:06 <@rizen> rather than /usr/local
05:06 < sstanvir> i did one thing.. i linked the /usr/bin/perl to /usr/local/bin/perl
05:06 <@rizen> in addition, since you compiled your own apache, you have to download and install libapreq2 from the apache site
05:06 <@rizen> and compile that manually
05:06 < sstanvir> yes.. i did that too
05:07 <@rizen> don't know what to tell you then. sounds like you did everything right
05:07 < PedersenMJ> sst: What do you you linked /usr/bin/perl to /usr/local/bin/perl?
05:08 < sstanvir> sorry PedersenMJ...can u pls repeat the que
05:08 <@rizen> does "management" ever acutally log in to the server? if not, just use the WRE. wre-0.7.2-rhel4 was compiled on CentOS 4
05:08 <@rizen> you'll save yourself piles and piles of headache
05:09 < PedersenMJ> sst: What do you mean when you say you "linked the /usr/bin/perl to /usr/local/bin/perl" ?
05:09 < sstanvir> thnx rizen.. but my team leader is strict to install from the source
05:09 < sstanvir> i mean.. there was one /usr/bin/perl.. i guess from some previous installation
05:09 < sstanvir> after I install perl-5.8.8 , i found /usr/local/bin/perl
05:09 <@rizen> and going back to the reason that we release as source...it's not so "management" can say install from source. it's so people that don't use the OS's we compile for can build for their own distro
05:10 < sstanvir> understood rizen
05:10 < PedersenMJ> So, sst: What did you do to make this link happen?
05:10 < sstanvir> and pedersen.. to make sure that when i execute perl
05:10 < sstanvir> it invokes the latest installation.. i linked the old binary to the new one
05:10 <@rizen> here's an idea if you're absolutely unwilling/unable to use the WRE...what you could do is download the WRE source tarball, and look at build.sh that comes with it
05:11 <@rizen> that will give you step by step instructions on the commands you need to use to compile successfully
05:11 < PedersenMJ> What command(s) did you use to link the old binary to the new one?
05:11 < sstanvir> ln -s
05:12 < sstanvir> now /usr/bin/ shows  : perl -> /usr/local/bin/perl
05:12 <@rizen> hey peeps...the first new book is out
05:12 <@rizen> http://www.lulu.com/content/779723
05:12 < SDuensin> Books!?
05:12 <@rizen> and the b/w edition http://www.lulu.com/content/780007
05:12 < SDuensin> BOOKS!
05:12 < SDuensin> WHOO!
05:12 < PedersenMJ> Ah, so instead of running "ln -s" you ran "ln -s /usr/local/bin/perl /usr/bin/perl". That's what I was trying to ascertain.
05:13 < sstanvir> yeah
05:13 < sstanvir> comeon.. i am not much of an expert.. but i am not that stupid ;)
05:14 < PedersenMJ> Ooof. $100 is a tough price for me to pay right now. But I would love to get it.
05:18 < PedersenMJ> sst: You could have done a number of different things when you say that you linked the two. I wanted to know which of the items on the list you had done, so I could provide ideas on where to look next to resolve any problems.
05:19 < PedersenMJ> Even saying you had done "ln -s" *still* left open quite a few possibilities, ranging from the simple ln command above, to a backwards version of it, to having written a script that would loop over everything under /usr/local, looking for perl files, and symlinking them back into the main /usr/lib/perl area to make sure you didn't accidentally use the one from /usr/local.
05:21 < sstanvir> hmm
05:21 < sstanvir> what if i just remove the /usr/bin/perl
05:22 <@preaction> sstanvir: probably a Very Bad Idea (tm)
05:22 < PedersenMJ> A very real possibility for your issues right now is that your compilation of mod_perl for Apache picked up the include files under /usr/include, instead of the ones from /usr/local (assuming that they are there). Now, you run perl from /usr/local, and things look good there, but Apache (and mod_perl) don't see the same version you do, because they're not running the same code.
05:23 < sstanvir> i c
05:23 < sstanvir> yeah.. that could happen
05:24 -!- vayde [n=vayde@209.134.142.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
05:25 < PedersenMJ> So, go with what rizen suggested: Download the WRE, follow the steps in build.sh. After that, make sure that your machine sees the hostname you expect Spectre to see, and thinks that that hostname points to itself (for instance, have "127.0.0.1 www.domain.com" in /etc/hosts 
05:26 < sstanvir> considering the possibility that u mentioned about apache and mod_perl
05:27 < sstanvir> what if I compile those again ?
05:27 < PedersenMJ> Well, wre contains Apache, mod_perl, and everything else. If you follow the full set of steps in build.sh, you'll be rebuilding them anyway.
05:28 < sstanvir> understood
05:28 < sstanvir> but I thought as of now ..just to try compiling apache.. mod_perl ..
05:30 < PedersenMJ> Go for it. Worst thing that could happen is that you accidentally do rm -rf / and have to rebuild the server :)
05:30 < sstanvir> :)
05:31 < sstanvir> btw.. when I installed apache2, 
05:31 < sstanvir> i did this: ./configure --with-z=/usr/local/lib 
05:33 < PedersenMJ> Since I don't know apache2 compile time options off the top of my head, I'll have to go with "Cool. Glad for you. Hope it helped."
05:33 < sstanvir> :)
05:33 < sstanvir> oh man...
05:33 < sstanvir> rizen told me one thing.. when to install mod_perl , during compile time i have to specify which perl to use
05:34 < sstanvir> how to do that?
05:34 < PedersenMJ> Probably has to do with some of those apache2 compile time options that I've not memorized, but which would be listed/used in build.sh to ensure that the correct perl is used for the WRE.
05:35 < sstanvir> okey :(
05:35 < sstanvir> the world is leading me to WRE.. but the team leader is against the world
05:36 < SDuensin> I know the feeling, sstanvir.
05:36  * SDuensin quit the job he had that was like that.
05:37 < PedersenMJ> No, the world is leading you to the absolute ultimate answer for your questions: How to build from source. Since WRE does it, and does it automatically, there's code that automates the process. And that means you can read the code and duplicate the results.
05:37 <@preaction> specifically: wre/sbin/build.sh
05:38 <@preaction> sstanvir: if you insist on installing mod_perl from cpan, make sure you use the right Perl instance
05:38 < sstanvir> i downloaded the mod_perl-2.0.3 
05:39 <@preaction> why not just use cpan?
05:39 < sstanvir> well.. that can work as well
05:40 < sstanvir> but how to make sure to use the right perl instance
05:40 <@preaction> it will install it into the Perl that you're using cpan with
05:41 < sstanvir>  i have /usr/bin/cpan and /usr/local/bin/cpan
05:42 < sstanvir> if i invoke perl -MCPAN -e shell 
05:42 < sstanvir> it should use the right one?
05:43 <@preaction> depends on the answer to `which perl`
05:43 <@preaction> which one is the Right one?
05:43 < sstanvir> which perl is /usr/local/bin/perl
05:43 < sstanvir> this is the right one
05:44 <@preaction> so "perl" will run "/usr/local/bin/perl", and "cpan" will probably run /usr/local/bin/cpan (you can verify with 'which cpan')
05:44 <@preaction> cpan for that perl will install modules for that perl
05:45 < sstanvir> yes
05:46 < sstanvir> mod_perl is in Bundle::Apache2 right? do u know the specific name of the module
05:50 <@preaction> do a search for Bundle::Apache2
05:50 <@preaction> or just Apache2
05:52 < sstanvir> ok
05:53 < sstanvir> anyway.. thanks a lot for your help and time preaction, PedersenMJ, rizen, SDuensin....
05:53 < sstanvir> you guys are really nice..
05:54 < sstanvir> so.. I will continue the battle.. and get back to u later with results..
05:54 < sstanvir> wish me luck
05:54 < sstanvir> bfn
05:54 <@rizen> good luck
05:55 < PedersenMJ> lots of luck to you.
05:57 <@rizen> is there anything better than warm bread right out of the oven
05:57 <@rizen> drizzled with a little melty butter
05:57 <@rizen> methinks not
05:57 <@rizen> just made a loaf of bread
05:58 <@rizen> so good
05:58 < SDuensin> Aaahhaahhhhh....fresh bread!
05:58 < PedersenMJ> Ah, maybe add some small amounts of honey to the butter. Not necessary, but can make a nice touch.
05:59 < PedersenMJ> Fresh bread is the best, though, butter or no :)
05:59 <@rizen> pedersenmj...the b/w version is only $75
05:59 <@rizen> and the book is almost 400 pages
05:59 <@rizen> lots of stuff in there
05:59 <@rizen> hmmm...will have to try the honey
05:59 <@rizen> haven't tried that one
05:59 < SDuensin> I'll need to make a bit more hosting money and then pick that book up.
05:59 <@rizen> not that i'm asking you to buy the book
06:00 < PedersenMJ> I know. $75 comes into range for me. And *believe* me, I don't doubt the value. Just more than I can do at this point. Although... I've got some cash coming my way soon ... ;)
06:00 <@rizen> indeed
06:00 <@rizen> if you prefer i can take it out of the money i'm sending you
06:00 <@rizen> and send you the book
06:00  * SDuensin wants to support PB and wG.
06:01 < PedersenMJ> What the hell. Yeah, I like that idea.
06:01 <@rizen> ok, which version would you like?
06:02 < PedersenMJ> Judgment call: Does the color add value to the contents? Or is the book totally fine without it?
06:03 < PedersenMJ> And: Does it affect how much plainblack gets?
06:03 < PedersenMJ> Better answer: Screw it, go for the color. Might as well, eh?
06:03 <@rizen> plain black makes far more on the b/w version
06:03 <@rizen> but the color one is cooler
06:04 <@rizen> cuz the screenshots are more legible in color
06:05 < PedersenMJ> Damn, now I'm torn between the two. Legibility matters, but so does supporting pb.
06:06 < PedersenMJ> I might be showing this to other people. Color will make them happier with the product. Color it should be.
06:07 <@rizen> don't worry about supporting us
06:07 <@rizen> go with the one you want
06:07 <@rizen> color it is
06:09 < PedersenMJ> Cool. Those two books should be a *very* lovely jump off point for me. I've got just enough knowledge to go in and muck about, and maybe get what I want. Having more information is always a good thing.
06:10 <@rizen> two books?
06:11 < PedersenMJ> WebGUI Primer as well.
06:11 <@rizen> oh right
06:11 <@rizen> from the contest
06:12 <@rizen> you'll probably just end up giving the primer away
06:12 < PedersenMJ> Exactly. Enough reading material to keep me occupied for a while.
06:12 < PedersenMJ> Eventually, yeah. But I do intend to at least leaf through it first. And see afterwards who it should go to.
06:12 <@rizen> everything covered in the primer is also covered in the cm guide...just in a hell of a lot more detail
06:12 <@rizen> look at it this way
06:12 <@rizen> the books that we are building now (starting with the CM guide)
06:13 <@rizen> are for the webgui professionals, like yourself
06:13 <@rizen> and the primers are the cheap books that can be handed out to the staff as a reference guide
06:13 <@rizen> the primer is a good book
06:13 <@rizen> but if you have the cm guide..you don't need the primer
06:13 <@rizen> i'll send it to you anyway
06:14 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay. primer is way to hook somebody, basically.
06:14 < PedersenMJ> I think I know some people to slip that too, then, to get them started :)
06:14 <@rizen> cool
06:15 <@rizen> even though we just are now releasing the CM guide, we're already planning the second edition of it
06:15 <@rizen> it won't be out for 6 months to a year
06:15 < SDuensin> BOOKS!   We like books.
06:15 <@rizen> but it's going to be another 100 page or so of content
06:16 <@rizen> so much in fact, that we're going to have to increase the format to a new bigger sized book
06:16 < PedersenMJ> Sweet :)
06:16 < PedersenMJ> I'm definitely going to be getting the other guides, too.
06:17 <@rizen> i had hoped the other two we're working on would be out this month
06:17 <@rizen> but we've been so busy with everything, and so short staffed, that they aren't done yet
06:18 <@rizen> but when all 3 are finished it will be between 1000 and 1200 pages of documentation
06:18 < SDuensin> Each a hundred bucks?
06:18 <@rizen> i don't think people will complain that we don't have enough documentation anymore
06:18 <@rizen> =)
06:18 <@rizen> 100 for color
06:18 <@rizen> and 75 for b/w
06:18 < SDuensin> Box set discount?  :-)
06:19 < PedersenMJ> Is there where I'm supposed to express outrage that you haven't finished these books on my personal timetable? Or should I just nicely say that I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of them as soon as they come out? :)
06:19 <@rizen> probably
06:19 <@rizen> just the cost of printing the color ones is 65 per book
06:19 < SDuensin> Ouch.
06:19 <@rizen> and that doesn't count for all the time we put in to writing them
06:19 <@rizen> that's why we're charging so much
06:19 <@rizen> if we could offer them for 50 a piece we would
06:20 < SDuensin> Believe me, WebGUI is worth the cash.  I just can't swing it yet.  When I can, I'll be buying everything you guys offer.  :-)
06:20 < PedersenMJ> I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's a *sweet* system, it really is.
06:20 <@rizen> i appreciate the support guys
06:20 <@rizen> thanks
06:21 < SDuensin> You deserve it.  WebGUI kicks ass.
06:21 < SDuensin> And to think that I found the 5.x release completely by accident via Google.  :-)
06:21 < PedersenMJ> I'm actually considering dropping my preference for Request Tracker, and using WG's system.
06:21 <+Radix_> Cool work on the book - just checked out the lulu links then :)
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Dunno if I'm ready for that just yet, but it might be right for me.
06:21 < SDuensin> I'm dropping everything I can for wG.  :-)
06:22 < SDuensin> Got two sites running on my host using it tonight!  Went smooth as snot.  I was really pleased.
06:22 <@rizen> yeah, we dropped RT for webgui a long time ago
06:22 <@rizen> and now that it has the email integration it's pretty sweet
06:22 < SDuensin> Third site is uploading now.  :-)
06:22 <@rizen> nice SD
06:23 < PedersenMJ> The email integration is probably my killer feature.
06:23 < SDuensin> This third site unpacks to like 1.5 gig.  Going to be awhile before it's up there.  <G>
06:23 <@rizen> after we get through this "healing" phase, i plan on writing an actual TroubleTicket system into webgui
06:23 <@rizen> probably won't be until either late 2007 or early 2008 though
06:24 < SDuensin> Healing?
06:24 <@rizen> bug fixing, documentation, new wre, etc
06:24 <@rizen> search plainblack.com for "new years resolution"
06:24 < SDuensin> Ah yes.  :-)
06:25 < SDuensin> :-)
06:25 < SDuensin> Well, I'm headed to bed.  I'll talk to you all again tomorrow!
06:25 < PedersenMJ> g'night SDuensin !
06:28 <@rizen> me too
06:28 <@rizen> later
06:29 < PedersenMJ> later rizen 
06:31 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #webgui
06:31 -!- mode/#webgui [+v perlDreamer] by ChanServ
06:31 < PedersenMJ> heya perlDreamer 
06:31 < PedersenMJ> how goes?
06:32 <+perlDreamer> It is well
06:32 <@preaction> wonder if that troubleticket thing is going to be integrated with the Project Manager (i hope hope hope. Trac rules)
06:32 <+perlDreamer> troubleticket thing?
06:32 <@preaction> JT: after we get through this "healing" phase, i plan on writing an actual TroubleTicket system into webgui
06:33 <@preaction> i wonder if the healing phase includes Perl::Critic and fixing inheritance of the container assets and their constituents
06:40 <+perlDreamer> healing phase?
06:41 <@preaction> bug fixing, more docs, new wre
06:41 <+perlDreamer> ah
06:42 <+perlDreamer> at this rate, the healing will take a long time
06:43 <+perlDreamer> I don't suppose we're planning another bug-a-thon anytime, are we?
06:45 <@preaction> i dunno. next friday vayde's coming down to madison and we're having a get-together. dunno the itinerary yet
06:45 <@preaction> it's been crazy around here. the alumni launch, short-staffed, etc...
06:45 <+perlDreamer> I know
06:46 <+perlDreamer> don't forget training new staff, publishing a book, webgui.org site design
06:47 <+perlDreamer> WUC conference details
06:47 <+perlDreamer> bread baking
06:48 < PedersenMJ> Damn... I need to find a place that does fresh bread on my way into work tomorrow. The fresher, the better. Now I've got an appetite.
06:48 <+perlDreamer> Where do you live?
06:48 <+perlDreamer> Google Maps is your friend, PedersenMJ
06:49 < PedersenMJ> The Garbage State. And TomTom is a better friend :)
06:49 <+perlDreamer> I've never tried.  I'll have to give it a shot
06:51 < PedersenMJ> I've got it on a Treo 650. Now, their installation process sucks the sweat off a dead donkey's balls. It's less friendly than YggDrasil Linux with bad floppies. But the software, once installed, is fantastic.
06:52 <+perlDreamer> Hey, I think that model of Treo has one of our chips in it.  You have chosen wisely.
06:52 < PedersenMJ> Personally, I wanted to stick with the Tungsten T5. Nice PDA. But, getting Navigator 6 on PalmOS required Treo 650. Nothing else supported or working.
06:53 < PedersenMJ> Having said that, I'll admit the 650 is pretty nice. Sometimes I wish I had separate devices, though, so that I could let the navigator run when a phone call comes in, but that's my only real complaint.
06:53 <+perlDreamer> The battery runtime estimation should be very, very good.
06:54 <+perlDreamer> Outside of that, you're on your own.
06:55 < PedersenMJ> Actually, it is pretty good. And the battery runtime is phenomenal. Actually better than the T5.
06:56 <+perlDreamer> That's really a function of the processor and the peripherals.
06:59 < PedersenMJ> Well, it does a good job. And it's pretty rare that I wish for two separate devices anymore.
07:01 <+Radix_> I love my o2 atom :)
07:05 < PedersenMJ> There are only two things I don't like about the Treo: 1) Inability to run two programs at once. So the navigator has to exit before I can take a call. 2) Constantly having to defrag memory because of the apps I use.
07:06 < PedersenMJ> Wait, one other: lack of ability to do voice dialing from bluetooth earpiece.
07:48 <+perlDreamer> preaction: given two arbitrary DateTime objects, do you know how to calculate the difference between them in time in seconds?
07:56 < PedersenMJ> http://search.cpan.org/dist/DateTime-Format-Epoch/ <-convert to seconds in the epoch with this?
07:57 <+perlDreamer> I've already coded around it, but I'll remember that for next time.
07:57 <+perlDreamer> thanks, PedersenMJ
07:58 < PedersenMJ> You're welcome. I know I've done it before, and not with that, but damned if I can remember how right now.
08:00 <@rizen> i'm not really here, but i had to share this: http://defragit.blogspot.com/2007/03/announcing-metadot-7.html
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08:00 <@rizen> holy crap
08:01 <@rizen> preaction: http://defragit.blogspot.com/2007/03/announcing-metadot-7.html
08:01 <@rizen> anyway...like i said, not really here
08:01 <@rizen> sleep now
08:01 <+perlDreamer> oh, go eat your bread!
08:01 <+perlDreamer> metadot moved to ruby on rails?
08:02 <+perlDreamer> whoa
08:03 -!- preaction [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [No route to host]
08:04 <+perlDreamer> does that make wG the last known CMS written in Perl?
08:06 <+perlDreamer> There's websiteinabox (from googlecode) written in Catalyst, but it's in early alpha/dev-only phase.
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15:40 < SDuensin> Greetings.
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16:34 <+MrHairgrease> rizen
16:35 <+MrHairgrease> do you know how i can figure out what kind of protocol is being used for the connection of a page request
16:35 <+MrHairgrease> http vs. https
16:38 <@rizen> if you're using the WRE it's not possible, at least in any way that I'm aware of
16:38 <@rizen> i've been trying to figure that out forever
16:39 <+MrHairgrease> i'm asking b/c you wanted to have a match option for http(s) in the redirect asset
16:39 <+MrHairgrease> the redirect rules
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> but if have have no way to figure that out
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> i cannot make the distinction
16:42 <@rizen> i know
16:42 <+MrHairgrease> maybe some env var may expose ssl usage?
16:42 <+MrHairgrease> dunno how they vary from ssl implementation to implementation
16:43 <@rizen> normally you'd do this:
16:43 <@rizen> if ($self->session->env->get("HTTPS") eq "on") {
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> oh ok 
16:43 <@rizen> so go ahead and do that in your code
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> but b/c of modproxy that doesn't work
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> ?
16:43 <@rizen> it will work for people not using wre
16:43 <@rizen> yeah, modproxy fucks it up
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> ic
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> well
16:44 <+MrHairgrease> were not at 7.4 yet
16:44 <+MrHairgrease> so i'll try to figure something out
16:44 <@rizen> i know a way around it with the wre as well, but i can't ask people to do it
16:44 <+MrHairgrease> the snippet you gave already helps
16:45 <@rizen> if you set up a seperate vhost on your modperl instance on a new port, and set an environment variable called HTTPS to on
16:45 <@rizen> and then have modproxy redirect all ssl requests to that one
16:45 <@rizen> it is a work around for the problem
16:45 <@rizen> but what a fuck around operation
16:46 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
16:46 <+MrHairgrease> that's not quite neat=)
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17:54 <+MrHairgrease> does anybody know what wrong when during upgrading 6.99.0-7.1.3 errors with
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> READY TO BEGIN UPGRADES
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> Cannot open config file:  at ../../lib/WebGUI/Config.pm line 348.
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> Can't locate object method "http" via package "../.." at ../../lib/WebGUI/Session.pm line 370.
17:54 <+MrHairgrease>         Processing upgrade executable failed!
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> I've had this error before and solved it
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> bu i cannot remember whati did
18:11 <+MrHairgrease> rizen
18:11 <+MrHairgrease> when's the wuc?
18:11 <+MrHairgrease> it says september on the hotel info on the site
18:12 <@vayde> I don't know if rizen is really here.  He's 'off' today, but I don't know how off 'off' is
18:13 <+MrHairgrease> he responded to me a few hours ago
18:14 <@vayde> dunno.  I just got a reminder email that he's 'out'  figured I'd let you know
18:14 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:14 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
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18:27 <@vayde> WUC is Oct 17-19th.  Deadline for special hotel rates is midnight on Sept 17th, 1 month prior to the beginning of the WUC
18:27 <@vayde> crap, he's gone
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18:54 <+perlDreamer> Are the smoke tests down?
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21:41 < SDuensin> Anybody have an idea of how much the RAM requirement increases for every site you add to a WRE based WebGUI?
21:45 <+perlDreamer> I don't think RAM requirements change that much per site as much as per connection.
21:45 <+perlDreamer> Basically, RAM for a new site would consist of the config file being translated to Perl data
21:46 <+perlDreamer> but I'd trust whatever rizen says more than that
21:46 <+perlDreamer> he's in the business of hosting
21:46 < SDuensin> I'm in the business of running out of RAM.  :-)
21:47 <+perlDreamer> WRE/non-WRE?
21:48 < SDuensin> WRE
21:49 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
21:49 <+perlDreamer> Wait a minute, this is on your virtual host, right?
21:50 <+perlDreamer> You could try adjusting the WRE settings for Apache::SizeLimit and see if it helps.
21:52 < SDuensin> Yea.
21:52 < SDuensin> I've not crashed yet, but I'm close to my vhost limit.
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--- Day changed Sat Apr 07 2007
00:46 <+perlDreamer> --bug
00:50 <+perlDreamer> preaction, do you see any problems with Mocking Log::Logger in the tests, all the time?
00:50 <+perlDreamer> Log::Log4Perl, I mean
00:50 <+perlDreamer> er, preaction_
01:01 <@vayde> he must be feeling down today, less than himself
01:02 <+perlDreamer> that would be preaction-, no?
01:02 <+perlDreamer> I bet he's not really there
01:02 <@vayde> I dunno, maybe he's feeling REALLY low
01:02 <+perlDreamer> good board work today
01:02 <@vayde> Thanks, I haven't really done anything.
01:03 <@vayde> good thing things are slow.
01:03 <+perlDreamer> I think just dialoging with the users help them fix things on their own sometimes
01:03 <@vayde> you have any ideas about the workflow problems one?
01:03 <+perlDreamer> Let me read the thread
01:03 <@vayde> yeah, at least they know there's someone out there
01:04 <+perlDreamer> Okay, here's what I see
01:04 <+perlDreamer> spectre can talk to spectre
01:04 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI can't talk to spectre
01:04 <+perlDreamer> spectre says that it has nothing to do
01:04 <+perlDreamer> q.e.d, I would say that it is a spectre config problem in the site config file
01:05 <+perlDreamer> b.t.w, problems like this are why I put up my RFE for spectre status in the Admin panel
01:06 <@vayde> I don't know if I buy that spectre is the problem here
01:06 <+perlDreamer> it isn't the problem, just the spectre line in the wG.conf file
01:06 <@vayde> his main complaint is he makes a new page, and it don't show up
01:07 <@vayde> He's seeing a spectre error, and is having a problem, hence A must be connected to B.  Unless you think they ARE connected
01:09 <+perlDreamer> well, he says that if he runs the workflow manually (via the Admin Panel run workflow feature) that it works
01:09 <+perlDreamer> that tells me it is spectre <--> webgui communication
01:09 <+perlDreamer> so it could be in spectre.conf as well
01:10 <@vayde> I'll ask him to post em both.  Can't hurt.
01:11 <+perlDreamer> Could I get your feedback on this bug?
01:11 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/trouble-with-search-users#bwxNi9JGw_ObzSiC7NPrRw
01:12 <@vayde> there isn't a WebGUI.conf, just an original.  You mean <insert customer site here>.conf right?
01:12 <@vayde> sure, I'll look
01:12 <+perlDreamer> yes about the WebGUI.conf
01:13 <+perlDreamer> I'm looking for an appropriate response to william's post to the bug thread
01:14 <@vayde> hang on, I'm reading
01:14 <+perlDreamer> sorry, too much virtue #2
01:16 <@vayde> William's post, you mean about the message suggestion?
01:16 <@vayde> I think it's a great idea
01:16 <+perlDreamer> I like the idea, too but I have two concerns.
01:16 <@vayde> I got bit by that one on the PB site.  Blank screen was a bit of a surprise
01:16 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI is supposed to work this way, so changing it should be an RFE, I think
01:17 <@vayde> Yeah, technically that's not a bug, but a feature that was left out
01:17 <@vayde> It should do something less ambiguous when you go to the page
01:17 <+perlDreamer> The other thing is that the message will appear and disappear as default searches and defined searches are performed, and it may be as confusing as the original behavior.
01:18 <+perlDreamer> I'm thinking of using standard dodge #5...
01:18 <@vayde> I dunno, depends on how it's phrased
01:18 <+perlDreamer> S.D #5 = "This is a feature.  Please submit an RFE.  If you disagree, please take it up with JT/rizen"
01:19 <@vayde> If the screen is gonna be blank, insert a message saying 'you have lots of groups/users,  I'm not gonna try to display em until you pare down the list with a search"
01:19 <@vayde> You are correct
01:19 <@vayde> I guess It depends on if a leaving out a feature can be called a bug
01:20 <+perlDreamer> exactly, and, in the past anyway, JT is the arbiter of those decisions
01:20 <@vayde> It is kinda scary to pull up a list of users or groups and get only a blank
01:20 <+perlDreamer> I agree.
01:20 <@vayde> Users are stupid, and panicking one just leads to even dumber behaviour
01:21 <@vayde> My opinion is call the left out feature a bug, and add it
01:21 <@vayde> However, as the FNG and padawan, my opinion don't count for much
01:21 <+perlDreamer> what is FNG?
01:21 <+perlDreamer> fairly new guy?
01:22 <@vayde> fuckin new guy
01:27 <@vayde> I gotta run.  Class time
01:27 <+perlDreamer> see you
02:47 <@vayde> Hmm.  I'm skunked again.
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02:54 < bodhi_zazen> !hi
02:55 <@vayde> Ahh, I see it's not just me
02:55 < bodhi_zazen> Any bots in here ?
02:55 <@vayde> perlbot
02:55 < bodhi_zazen> !bot
02:55 < bodhi_zazen> !perl
02:55 < bodhi_zazen> !braindead
02:56 < bodhi_zazen> !knock-knock
02:56 <@vayde> Oh well.  I'll get perlDreamer to school me in it again later.  He's been very patient
02:57 < bodhi_zazen> http://www.perlbot.org/
02:58 <@vayde> cool, thanks
02:59 < bodhi_zazen> I think that bot is mute
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03:19 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: rizen?
03:19 < perlbot> JT, the creator of WebGUI, aka TMRFE
03:19 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: help
03:19 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
03:19 <+perlDreamer> wrong syntax
03:20 <+perlDreamer> ahoy, vayde!  what happened to class?
03:20 <@vayde> they never came in
03:20 <@vayde> I knew you'd save me on the bot
03:21 <+perlDreamer> I keep forgetting
03:21 <@vayde> I'm pretty new to irc too.  
03:21 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot is a better overall bot, but preaction's network keeps dropping
03:21 <@vayde> I'd never used it, and then bodhi_zazen recruited me into the ubuntuforums-beginners team
03:21 <@vayde> the bot over there works differently
03:22 <@vayde> what's the difference between using <name>: and <name>, ?
03:22 <+perlDreamer> I don't think any
03:22 <+perlDreamer> perlbot, what time is it?
03:22 < perlbot> Fri Apr  6 17:20:21 2007 Pacific Time
03:22 <@vayde> ahh, well there you go
03:22 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: what time is it?
03:22 < perlbot> Fri Apr  6 17:20:27 2007 Pacific Time
03:23 <+perlDreamer> perlbot- what time is it?
03:23 <+perlDreamer> perlbot; what time is it?
03:23 <@vayde> so, any name, followd by : or , yields the highlit message?
03:23 <+perlDreamer> looks like it
03:24 <+perlDreamer> I did a cool testing hack today
03:25 <@vayde> cool.  We still need to talk about all your testing mojo
03:25 <+perlDreamer> I outfit all tests with the ability to intercept thing sent to the webgui.log file, to verify logging messages happens correctly
03:25 <@vayde> I may have another class in 10 though
03:25 <+perlDreamer> so if people don't show do you still charge them?
03:26 <@vayde> I'm stuck between wanting to go home early, and hoping customers show up
03:26 <@vayde> with us, you sign up for a number of classes per week, and then show up whenever your schedule/interests allow it
03:26 <@vayde> make up classes you miss too
03:27 <@vayde> It's a nice system.  Makes it easy to work around whatever chaos shows up in your life
03:27 <@vayde> unfortunately, it's a bit too nice.  It would probably be more effective if people HAD to show up at a certain day or time.
03:27 <+perlDreamer> yes.  Kind of leaves you hanging
03:28 <@vayde> In a lot of ways, I'm too nice for my own good.  If I was a little meaner, or opportunistic, I'd do better in business
03:28 <@vayde> I'm just not willing to do it though
03:28 <+perlDreamer> morals are important in whatever you do
03:28 <@vayde> And besides, I'm not the student's mother.  They can show up or not.  We're all big boys
03:28 <@vayde> Tuition is due per the membership agreement whether you show or not.  I was here, ready to do my part
03:29 <+perlDreamer> I see, so it's just scheduling hassles, rather than being shorted.
03:29 <@vayde> Yeah, mine were preventing me from eating though.  That's too bad
03:29 <@vayde> Not really hassles.  
03:29 <@vayde> More like feast or famine
03:29 <@vayde> some classes are big, others tiny
03:30 <@vayde> which is fine.  Makes my job interesting sometimes, but I'm the professional
03:30 <@vayde> It's an interesting time balancing between what the student NEEDS, and what they will show up for.
03:31 <@vayde> Traditionally you have disciples.  They'll do anything you tell em to
03:31 <@vayde> Nowadays, there aint too many of those around.
03:31 <@vayde> Students on the other hand, will do what you say, to a point.
03:31 <+perlDreamer> Maybe that's what I am, a WebGUI disciple
03:32 <@vayde> but mostly you get customers.  Customers are very, very different.  Customers only do what THEY want.  Regardless of what is best for their education
03:32 <@vayde> My teacher says a disciple is a student with discipline
03:33 <@vayde> You've learned this stuff, and kept at it.  You'd count as a disciple.
03:33 <+perlDreamer> It sounds better than volunteer hacker
03:33 <+perlDreamer> hacker disciple
03:33 <@vayde> heh
03:33 <@vayde> I don't know what the time scale is in the hacker world.  In martial arts, you'd need a few more years to count as a disciple.
03:34 <@vayde> That
03:34 <@vayde> That's one reason they're rare these days
03:34 <+perlDreamer> In martial arts, how many years to earn the title of disciple?
03:34 <@vayde> personally, I don't like the term.  It's religious overtones spook people
03:35 <@vayde> There's no single guide.
03:35 <@vayde> I have one guy who I'd call a disciple.  he's been with me for 10 years
03:36 <+perlDreamer> Yeah, I've only got 3 under my belt
03:36 <@vayde> Hey, I don't think wG has been around for 10
03:37 <+perlDreamer> Only 5
03:37 <@vayde> It's a little easier to rack up the time when the discipline is 1000+ years old
03:37 <@vayde> hell, perl, and computers in general can't quite compete there
03:39 <+perlDreamer> no, not even close!
03:40 <@vayde> well, looks like I'm skunked again.  Can't say that I'm complaining.  I'll be back online in a few when I get home.  (home's just a couple miles up the road)  talk to you in a few.
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04:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm back, did y'all miss me?
04:47 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but my aim is getting better.
04:48 <+perlDreamer> there's always one in every crowd...
04:48 <+perlDreamer> Don't work too hard on hitting me, I spent large chunks of today working on wG's test suite
04:49 <+perlDreamer> Improving test coverage and extending it
04:49 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. Sad thing is, I seem to be in too many of those crowds, being that one. I need to get some time off, free up a few days from crowd-jackass duty.
04:50 <+perlDreamer> Don't be hard on yourself
04:50 <+perlDreamer> If you were really a crowd-jackass, JT would kick you out of the channel and ban your IP
04:51 < PedersenMJ> Ah, it's possible to be an only minorly annoying crowd-jackass. One that tosses in just the right remarks here and there to maintain the title, without going overboard into the offensive.
04:52 <+perlDreamer> You're far from that.
04:52 < PedersenMJ> Damn. Got to work on my abilities, then. That remark just cost me bookings for the next week!
04:52 < PedersenMJ> Well, then again, I did say I wanted some time off.
04:53 <+perlDreamer> Take the next few days off and take it easy.
04:53 < PedersenMJ> And now, I'm just being stupidly annoying. So, to stop: How much of the test suite did ya manage to get done?
04:53 <+perlDreamer> I upped the coverage on two Session tests to 100%
04:53 <+perlDreamer> and redid the Http test to look at the new caching code that's been in there
04:54 < PedersenMJ> Nice job! Congrats! Wow.... And here I am just trying to find the time to finish a theme.
04:54 <+perlDreamer> I had the day off from $dayJob, so I had lots of time
04:54 <+perlDreamer> my company gives us Good Friday as a holiday
04:55 < PedersenMJ> Nice. Very nice. They hiring?
04:55 <+perlDreamer> Are you an EE with > 5 years of experience?
04:56 < PedersenMJ> Nope.
04:56 <+perlDreamer> C programmer with assembly coding?
04:57 < PedersenMJ> C programmer: Yes, definitely (once read quadruply indirected pointers in my head). Assembly: I *can* do it, but usually choose not to (which, I know, rules me right out of that category).
04:57 <+perlDreamer> yeah, they're primarily looking for hardware level guys
04:57 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I'm definitely not at that level.
04:59 < PedersenMJ> Dunno, really. Serious job satisfaction crisis for me. And, since I know that JT will eventually want to know why I didn't send in a resume to plainblack, it's because I enjoy WG more as a hobby, and would not remain happy for very long as a job.
05:00 <+perlDreamer> WG does make a very nice hobby.
05:02 < PedersenMJ> I think what I'm most tired of, right now, is that I'm basically on call all the time. Our helpdesk guy... I like him, he's a nice guy, but I'm starting to think he's somewhere around the level of weak power user.
05:02 < PedersenMJ> Yesterday, he asked me four times if deleting an Outlook profile on a laptop would delete the email off the Exchange server.
05:03 < PedersenMJ> And I mean he did that within a time span of about 15 minutes.
05:03 <+perlDreamer> oy
05:03 <+perlDreamer> that's no good
05:04 < PedersenMJ> I know. So, I'm just tired. Really tired. And complaining. Should stop that now. Will try.
05:52 <+perlDreamer> g'night, all
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06:33 < PedersenMJ> SD: He's a real card.
06:36 < SDuensin> Eh?
06:37 < PedersenMJ> Types what he should have typed to make something remotely resembling a joke:
06:37 < PedersenMJ> That SD: He's a real card.
06:37 < SDuensin> :-P
06:38 < PedersenMJ> Sorry, am tired. My ability to make funny jokes is tired, too. Rain check?
06:39 < SDuensin> Sure.  Why not.  <G>
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Cool. Don't worry, I'll find a decent one to make later.
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Nothing at all like butcher dance, I promise.
06:41 < SDuensin> I don't even wanna know.
06:42 < PedersenMJ> One of the longest, and most horrible, puns I have ever read/heard. My wife walks out of the room if I mention it. I've been threatened with bodily harm at the punchline. I have had one woman scream at the top of her lungs about it. It's great :D
06:42 < PedersenMJ> http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/6174/jokes/butcher-dance.htm
06:42  * SDuensin tries in vain to not click the link.
06:42 < SDuensin> DOH!
06:44 < PedersenMJ> Now I *know* you didn't read the whole thing already.
06:45 < SDuensin> No.  I will.  :-)
06:46 < PedersenMJ> And, just imagine having somebody take the time to add still more detail at all the various junctures, and you'll get a feel for how I tell it. And I love telling it so much :)
06:49  * SDuensin is reading on the IMDB about Casino Royale.
06:50 < PedersenMJ> Ah, have heard good things about it. Will watch it someday.
06:51 < SDuensin> Just saw it.  Excellent.  The end is kind of slow, but I think that's just because the rest of the movie never lets up.
06:51 < SDuensin> The first 10 minutes are worth buying the disc for.  Amazing stunt work.
06:52 <+Radix_> I enjoyed it myself.. much more gritty than the previous bond films.  But then it also shows how young he is at that stage of his career.
06:52 < SDuensin> I like Bond films.  Even the dumb ones.  This was good even compared to "regular" movies.  :-)
06:54 < PedersenMJ> Bond films are fun, if for no other reason than high tech gadgetry being used in new and creative ways :)
06:55 < SDuensin> WHOA!  I *KNEW* I saw Richard Branson in that film!
06:55  * SDuensin loves the IMDB trivia.
07:03 < PedersenMJ> One of the few things that managed to make me LOL: http://www.customerssuck.com/index.php?categoryid=13&p2007_articleid=4
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17:48  * vayde groans
17:48 <@vayde> It's too early to be faced with 5 year olds.
17:48 <@vayde> And violent ones at that
21:06 < SDuensin> :-)
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21:34 <+perlDreamer> vayde, are you ready to learn the way of WebGUI Testing?
21:34 <+perlDreamer> It is long, and fraught with peril
21:34 <+perlDreamer> many have tried, few have persevered
21:44 <@vayde> I want to.  I can't do it right now.  I hafta close up shop and rescue the gf's vehicle from a horrible fate.  Will you be around tonight or tomorrow?
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23:07 <+perlDreamer> both, I think
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23:23 < perlDreame1> grrrr
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06:21 < wgGuest11> I am trying to evaluate different CSM, however I have had some issues trying to install Webgui on my Windows XP machine
06:21 < wgGuest11> Is there any help available for this?
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07:11 <+perlDreamer> evening, rizen
07:11 <+perlDreamer> what's shaking?
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05:05 < PedersenMJ> g'd evening
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06:46 < PedersenMJ> Wow... I am *never* building webgui from source ever again!
06:46 < PedersenMJ> I just did the wre for the first time ever. I was an absolute idiot for insisting on building from source.
07:36 <@preaction> wre is easy, no?
07:36 <@preaction> jt's working on ways to make it even easier. but i don't think he'll be able to achieve binary-compatibility between distributions
07:43 < PedersenMJ> Is bedtime for this sad sack. see you all manana!
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15:53 < SDuensin> Good morning.
15:54 <@preaction> morning
15:58 < SDuensin> WebGUI is becoming an obsession.
15:58 < SDuensin> My wife is going to kill me when she finds out what I'm spending screwing with web servers.
15:58 < SDuensin> :-)
15:59 <@preaction> turn it into profit?
15:59 <@preaction> there are always places looking for websites to be made
16:02 < SDuensin> That's the plan.  I just completely suck at finding those people.
16:04 < ckotil> thats my dilema too
16:05 < SDuensin> Hey ckotil 
16:06 <@preaction> eventually it becomes a matter of giving out your card to people, after of course making some cards
16:08 <@preaction> i believe we had an idea to add a "Services Connection" area to the new webgui.org site to help hook up potential clients to the people who could help them (since plainblack can get too busy to get to certain projects in a timely fashion)
16:08 <@preaction> i hope that happens
16:08 <@preaction> more exposure for webgui = more potential business for plainblack in every case
16:09 < SDuensin> Sounds good to me.
16:09  * SDuensin has handed out a ton of cards.
16:10 < SDuensin> Anyone ever hear of anyone converting from Drupal to WebGUI?
16:10 <@preaction> doesn't sound like a simple operation, but i think i've heard someone express interest in doing it
16:12 < SDuensin> Yea, but was that someone me?  :-)
16:12 <@preaction> i think it was
16:13 < SDuensin> Well, unfortunately, I haven't helped myself do the conversion yet.  :-P
16:16 <@preaction> i imagine you're going to have to start by mapping what can be actually converted from database to database. I just got done writing a large (3000+ line) migration script from a client's custom coldfusion database to webgui custom apps, so it can be done.
16:16 <@preaction> it just isn't very fun
16:16 <@preaction> basically thus: using DBI to grab information, use the WebGUI API to create the appropriate assets
16:22 < SDuensin> That's what I was gonna try and do.  Let WebGUI do the writing so I don't screw it up.  :-)
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17:35 <@vayde> MrHairgrease, did you ever get the WUC schedule confirmed?  It's Oct 17-19, but the hotel reservations need to be made by Sept 17 to get the cheap rate.
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> I'm not sure what you mean.
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> the date of the wuc is already fixed right?
17:54 <@preaction> MrHairgrease: i believe the conference center is already booked and everything
17:55 <+MrHairgrease> that's what understood too
17:55 <+MrHairgrease> so i don't quite understand what vayde's trying to ask me
17:56 <@preaction> but then again, i'm not in charge of that, and it's better that i only worry about what i need to (which already is plenty)
17:56 <@vayde> Sorry, last week you asked a question that I interpreted to be confusion over the date of the WUC
17:56 <+MrHairgrease> did I?
17:56 <@vayde> there was a line on the hotel information page that sayd 'September 17'
17:56 <+MrHairgrease> oh yeah
17:56 <+MrHairgrease> joeri saw that i guess
17:56 <@vayde> That's the deadline for cheap registration
17:57 <+MrHairgrease> ah i see
17:57 <@vayde> I have sinced messed with it in the attempt to make it clearer
17:57 <@preaction> o/t question: what would be a good language to learn that could get me through central europe? britain, france, bavaria, that area?
17:57 <@preaction> french? german?
17:57 <@vayde> $$$
17:57 <@vayde> that always helps, no matter where
17:57 <+MrHairgrease> english
17:58 <@preaction> seriously?
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> or you could learn german and french
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> assuming you already speak english
17:58 <@vayde> naw, I think he should learn english
17:58 <@vayde> do him good
17:58 <@preaction> but only knowing english would get me by?
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> not everywhere
17:58 <@preaction> even in, say, non-tourtisty areas?
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> it depends
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> my experience in france is that a lot of people there don't speak much english
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> mostly elder people
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> but then again
17:59 <@vayde> I had no trouble in Italy with english and what little Spanish I remembered from Jr. High school
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> frensh people don't speak german
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> and vice versa
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> so it depends where you wana go
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> i managed to go to italy using english
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> but also a lot of hand symbols
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> if you're in tourist areas your good with english
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> but if you go hiking
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> or something like that
18:01 <+MrHairgrease> and pass trough these tiny villages
18:01 <+MrHairgrease> it can be difficult to communicate
18:01 <+MrHairgrease> germans are pretty good at englishg
18:01 <+MrHairgrease> and so are swiss and ausrian people
18:01 <+MrHairgrease> for france and italy
18:02 <+MrHairgrease> it really depends who you talk to
18:02 <@preaction> i've got a good base in french, so hopefully a few months of drilling might improve that to near-tourist levels
18:02 <+MrHairgrease> if you have a base you're good
18:03 <+MrHairgrease> you're plaaning you hollidays in eurotrashland then?
18:03 <@preaction> just planning my world trips
18:03 <@preaction> and the languages i'll need to learn for it
18:03 <@preaction> hindi, japanese, and french+german
18:03 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:04 <+MrHairgrease> man
18:04 <@preaction> egyptian too
18:04 <+MrHairgrease> i cannot imagine learning all that
18:04 <+MrHairgrease> 'm bad at languages
18:04 <+MrHairgrease> and happy with the ones i know already
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19:06 <+perlDreamer> vayde: you need a new toy http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/warfare/885d/
19:08 <@vayde> Heh.  I shudder to think what the designers call a 'block' or an 'attack'
19:09 <+perlDreamer> maybe we could hack it and correct it
19:10 <@vayde> but I can already punch through wall.
19:10 <@vayde> well, bulletproof vests anyway
19:11 <+perlDreamer> close enough
19:12 <+perlDreamer> that's what we used at my house instead of drywall
19:12 <+perlDreamer> the vests make for an interesting wall texture, plus they don't need to be painted
19:12 <@vayde> and then there's lots of pockets too
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20:46 < greghacke> chirp - chirp - chirp
20:50 < SDuensin> Hey greghacke 
20:50 < greghacke> hiya.  just was really quiet.  figured i'd see what all is working.
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21:02 < cap10morgan> Can I bounce an idea off of you guys?
21:02 < cap10morgan> I'm in the process of upgrading a bunch of sites to v. 7
21:02 < SDuensin> Hi cap10morgan 
21:02 < cap10morgan> And I'm replacing SQL Reports that query the WebGUI database w/ macros, wobjects, etc. that use the API instead.
21:02 < cap10morgan> hello SDeunsin
21:03 < cap10morgan> But as I'm doing this, I'm thinking, it would be cool if there was a generic wobject to do all this for me. Sort of an "Asset Report" wobject.
21:03 < cap10morgan> The more I thought about that, though, the more I realized that 90% of that implementation would be re-implemented the navigation system.
21:04 < cap10morgan> So really, I just want to add some more features to the Navigation system.
21:04 < cap10morgan> Does that seem like logical? Or totally whacked? :)
21:04 < SDuensin> Good luck with all that.  :-)
21:04 < SDuensin> I don't know enough about it to even say.
21:05 < cap10morgan> s/re-implemented/re-implementing
21:05 <@rizen> we've been thinking about doing that for quite a while
21:05 < cap10morgan> SDuensin: heh, thanks
21:05 < SDuensin> rizen lives!
21:05 < greghacke> what are you trying to add?  what data are you pulling/looking at pulling?
21:05 <@rizen> but as far as adding it to the nav system that's a bad idea
21:05 <@rizen> the nav system is already one of the most complex assets in webgui
21:05 <@rizen> and one of the slowests
21:06 <@rizen> adding to it would make it even slower
21:06 < cap10morgan> rizen: ah, good reasons not to tack on too much more functionality then
21:06 <@rizen> plus, a lot of the template variables exposed in the nav asset, wouldn't need to be exposed for an asset report asset
21:06 <@rizen> however, you are right that the nav would be a good place to start
21:07 <@rizen> or at least something to base it off of
21:07 < cap10morgan> greghacke: basically i just need something w/ the flexibility of an SQL report but that uses the API to get its data
21:07 < cap10morgan> rizen: ok
21:07 < cap10morgan> i take it you guys don't have anything started yet?
21:07 <@rizen> nope
21:08 <@rizen> too many other projects
21:08 < cap10morgan> rizen: gotcha
21:08 < greghacke> OK, that I understand.  I do a lot of SQL Reports for similar functions as well.
21:08 <@rizen> the asset report asset
21:08 <@rizen> should simply traverse the tree similar to the nav asset
21:09 <@rizen> but limit based upon asset type
21:09 <@rizen> and instead of all the variables that we expose in nav
21:09 <@rizen> this would expose the properties of the assets
21:09 <+perlDreamer> is it just an interface to getLineage?
21:09 <@rizen> yup
21:09 <+perlDreamer> that's like 10 lines of code
21:09 <@rizen> it should be fairly trivial to write
21:09 <@rizen> yeah
21:10 <@rizen> the most difficult part is exposing all the configuration properties
21:11 < cap10morgan> i'm wanting it to be able to do some pretty flexible traversing options, like start here and descend, start here and grab siblings (all the nav stuff), plus things like: just pull from this arbitrary list of assets and descend, etc.
21:11 <+perlDreamer> right, so really just remove the guts of Nav and insert 10 lines of code
21:11 <+perlDreamer> my @assets = WebGUI::Asset->getLineage($session, [options and switches]);
21:11 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: that's an excellent place to start. :)
21:11 <+perlDreamer> foreach my $asset (@assets) {
21:12 <+perlDreamer> push @varAssets, $asset->get();
21:12 <+perlDreamer> }
21:12 <+perlDreamer> then the template variable render
21:12 <+perlDreamer> that's all pseude-code, by the way
21:12 <+perlDreamer> if you actually copy/paste that it probably won't work
21:12 < cap10morgan> sure
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21:28 <@preaction> cap10morgan: you may want to check $asset->can("getTemplateVars") first. I know that WebGUI::Asset::Event uses that to add a whole bunch of vars that are very useful if not necessary. I don't know the status of adding getTemplateVars as an Asset standard method though
21:28 < cap10morgan> preaction: cool, will look into that
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--- Day changed Tue Apr 10 2007
01:34 <+perlDreamer> preaction: has the deprecation of WebGUI::Session::DateTime (in preference of WebGUI::DateTime) been discussed?
01:36 <@rizen> what do you want to discuss pd?
01:41 <+perlDreamer> I seem to remember at some point we were going to deprecate Session::DateTime in favor of WebGUI::DateTime
01:42 <@rizen> yes
01:42 <@rizen> but that's a long time coming
01:42 <+perlDreamer> well, in that case I'm going to finish the test suite for Session::DateTime
01:42 <+perlDreamer> just in case
01:42 <@rizen> we first have to migrate everything in the core to the new api
01:43 <@rizen> actually, that's a good idea
01:43 <@rizen> cuz then when we convert Session::Date to use WebGUI::Date
01:43 <@rizen> (if we do that)
01:43 <@rizen> then we'll be able to test that it works
01:50 <+perlDreamer> I'll keep on it then
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02:41 <+perlDreamer> w00t!  100% subroutine coverage in DateTime
02:41 <@preaction> woohoo!
02:41 <@rizen> ahoo
02:41 <+perlDreamer> careful observers will notice however, that branch and conditional coverage are not mentioned in that press release
02:43 <+perlDreamer> rizen: can your PR gal also start sending release info to LWN.net?
02:44 <+perlDreamer> formal press releases go to pr@lwn.net
02:44 <@rizen> does that even make sense?
02:44 <+perlDreamer> sure
02:44 <@rizen> i thought that was a linux site
02:44 <+perlDreamer> It is
02:44 <+perlDreamer> But their weekly coverage also handles frameworks, tools, cad, audio and video editing, etc.
02:44 <@rizen> ok
02:44 <@rizen> i'll tell her
02:45 <+perlDreamer> http://lwn.net/Articles/226258/
02:45 <+perlDreamer> there's an example
02:45 <+perlDreamer> and I'm tired of reading Zope/Plone/PHP stuff there all the time
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04:31 < PedersenMJ> heylo all
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04:44 < SDuensin> Hey PedersenMJ 
04:44 < PedersenMJ> How goes it?
04:45 < SDuensin> Not bad.  Watching 24 and putting up more WebGUI sites.  :-)
04:48 < PedersenMJ> Cool :)
04:54 <+Radix-wrk> the new poll on plainblack.com's support page didn't include my favourite asset - snippet :(
04:56 < SDuensin> God I love WebGUI.  
05:01 <@preaction> does IE7 not like forms generated by DOM? i've got a script here http://alumni.plainblack.net/extras/yui-webgui/build/form/dynamicGroup.js, everything seems to work except that WebGUI.Form.DynamicGroup.getSearchResults never seems to get called. I've got a bunch of alerts in there that works with FF no problem, but are never reached with IE7.
05:02 <@preaction> IE7 gives me no error, and I can't see anything with my syntax that is overtly wrong
05:03 < SDuensin> Dunno.  I'm doing IE7 testing on my site right now.
05:03 <@preaction> i think i might've found something... IE7 has no JS debugging at all for god's sake...
05:03 <@preaction> and JS is already notorious for failing w/ no error for just no durned reasn
05:03 <@preaction> 3 hours of this and i'm... a little purturbed...
05:35 <@preaction> and of course Yui doesn't include a changelog, since it seems to be a Yui problem...
05:38 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-snippets
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Hey, does anybody here know of a reliable rs-232 cable for a treo 650? I've now tried a total of three of them, and am getting nowhere.
06:04 <+Radix-wrk> rs232? wtf?
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06:04 <+Radix-wrk> surely it uses usb or mini-usb like everyone else
06:05 <+Radix-wrk> I thought only vintage hardware used rs232 - like my old Commodore 64
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06:06 < PedersenMJ> Or many GPS units?
06:06 < PedersenMJ> Or high end switches?
06:06 < PedersenMJ> Or unix based servers which are meant to run in headless mode, and don't have a video card at all?
06:07 <+Radix-wrk> ethernet
06:07 < PedersenMJ> Which works *fabulously* once you've got TCP/IP up and running. What about before that gets started?
06:07 <+Radix-wrk> usb
06:07 <+Radix-wrk> ;)
06:08 < PedersenMJ> I'm looking to connect my Treo 650 to a Garmin ForeTrex 101. The only cable it provides as an input/output is serial/rs-232.
06:08 <+Radix-wrk> no bluetooth?
06:08 < PedersenMJ> Ah, USB works marvelously once the OS is running. What about when you need to modify the bios settings before the OS even can get started?
06:09 < PedersenMJ> Nope, no bluetooth.
06:09 <+Radix-wrk> good luck then :)
06:10 < PedersenMJ> Yep. I'm getting slower speeds (4800), but can't get the input to work on those speeds. I need a way to send data into the GPS, as well as pull data out of it. Well, need is the wrong word. It's not required, obviously. Would just make a nice finishing touch for paperless geocaching.
06:11 < PedersenMJ> Oh, I need a 9600bps connection to make the input work. And it's driving me nuts that I can't find it.
06:12 <+Radix-wrk> 4800bps.. just seems so.. last century..
06:13 < PedersenMJ> Works great for nmea data, which does most of what is needed/desired, but still leaves me short on quickly adding waypoints to the gps.
06:17 < PedersenMJ> BTW, Radix-wrk: I have a server upstairs which has no monitor, no video card, no keyboard, and no mouse. It uses a serial port console to allow me to connect a random laptop to it and administer when I have to do local administration.
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06:43 < preaction_> could someone try to 'svn co http://commctrl.com/hybrid' for me quick?
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06:44 < PedersenMJ> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/hybrid'
06:44 < PedersenMJ> svn: PROPFIND of '/hybrid': 405 Method Not Allowed (http://commctrl.com)
06:44 <@preaction> good, thanks
06:44 <@preaction> oh crap
06:45 <@preaction> 'svn co svn://commctrl.com/hybrid' <- try that instead
06:45 <@preaction> i'm not using apache, but svnserve under inetd
06:45 < PedersenMJ> svn: /data/svn.commctrl.com/hybrid/conf/svnserve.conf:18: Section header expected
06:45 <@preaction> okay, better
06:45 <@preaction> an error, but an error meaning you can reach the server
06:45 <@preaction> how long did it take? pretty quick?
06:46 < PedersenMJ> Very quick,.
06:46 <@preaction> sweet, thanks
06:46 < PedersenMJ> <5 seconds. Probably <2, but not positive if it was that quick.
06:46 <@preaction> that box is under heavy load all the time, and i'm not nice to it
06:46 <@preaction> i make a p90 run mod_perl + a whole slew of little stuff
06:47  * preaction is evul
06:47 < PedersenMJ> Poor little machine.
06:47  * PedersenMJ gives it some pity.
06:47 <@preaction> mod_perl consistently times out, and i'm planning on moving it out, but it'll still be running my torrents >:)
06:48 < PedersenMJ> Oh, nice! The new version of macvim finally does something good for the tabs.
06:48 <@preaction> there's a macvim? interesting
06:49 < PedersenMJ> Oh yeah. http://www.macvim.org/
06:51 < PedersenMJ> Okay guys, I've got a question for you. First off, the current theme in progress is http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/1705
06:51 < PedersenMJ> In the lower left is a box named "The Semantic Web". I'm having a hard time deciding what to put *in* that box. Any suggestions?
06:52 <+perlDreamer> Something WebGUI-esque?
06:53 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.lipsum.com/
06:53 <@preaction> http://plainblack.com?op=genesis
06:54 <@preaction> was there an IE7 bug in the admin console / asset edit pages that got fixed since 7.3.10 that anyone knows about?
06:54  * preaction greps the changelogs
06:54 < PedersenMJ> I've been debating about it for a couple days now. A graphic seems cheesy, somehow. No other asset seems like quite the right thing to do. \
06:55 < PedersenMJ> The genesis snippet might be okay, I suppose.
06:57 <+perlDreamer> preaction: not that I did
06:57 <+perlDreamer> that may help limit the search
06:58 <@preaction> i can't see one... i think it's just IE's debugger throwing up on the code previous, preventing me from getting to code afterwards (which is where the real problem lies)
06:58 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... I wonder, what do people think of this idea for an RFE? A maximum number of items to appear in a navigation control.
06:59 <@preaction> like max levels + max assets per level? sort of thing?
06:59 < PedersenMJ> My goal: I'd like to have an "older news" section, and have it limit itself to 3 or 4 items. Navigation *seems* like the right idea, which is where that idea for an RFE came from.
07:00 <@preaction> actually, cap10morgan is (i think) implementing the Asset Report Wobject, which will be basically an user-configurable interface to AssetLineage->getLineage
07:00 < PedersenMJ> Dang it, is max assets per level a new feature? I don't see that (though could be blind) when making a new navigation.
07:00 <@preaction> so, a subset of navigation's features
07:00 <@preaction> max assets per level might be a new feature, and it might be a good idea. nav assets can be ... slow
07:01 < PedersenMJ> I might just toss that in as an RFE, then. If it's not already in there, at least.
07:01 <+perlDreamer> max assets per level probably won't help much
07:02 <+perlDreamer> children are returned flat
07:02 <+perlDreamer> at least not for speed anyway
07:02 <+perlDreamer> but I like the concept
07:02 <+perlDreamer> rizen will point out that it will make the nav slower since it's more code
07:02 < PedersenMJ> For me, it's not about speed. I'd like it to return just the first (x) items, and that's it.
07:03 <+Radix-wrk> I'd like max assets per level too
07:03 <+perlDreamer> post it as an RFE
07:03 <+perlDreamer> we have karma that needs spending
07:03 < PedersenMJ> Just double-checking the latest featureset, to make sure I'm not duping existant features, first.
07:04 <@preaction> it might speed it up, since you don't have to check so many assets (each asset you walk through in a nav has to be instanciated)
07:04 <+perlDreamer> that's what I was saying earlier
07:04 <+perlDreamer> you get a flat list of kids back
07:04 <+perlDreamer> in order to tell what level it is, you have to instanciate it
07:05 <@preaction> no, you can tell from the lineage itself
07:05 <@preaction> 0000001 <- root. 00000010000001 <- under root, say /home 00000010000002 - under root, say /import
07:06 <+perlDreamer> How do you get the lineage without instanciating it?
07:07 <@preaction> the getLineage call in the nav asset doesn't returnObjects iirc. it also has a "max assets per level" option
07:07 <+perlDreamer> it does
07:07 <+perlDreamer> return objects, I mean
07:08 <+perlDreamer> but that could be optimized out
07:09 <@preaction> that doesn't sound good. it might have a whole branch of the tree it skips for some reason or another
07:09 <+perlDreamer> that's the consequence of limiting the number of assets per level
07:09 <+perlDreamer> I'm starting to think that wG could do with some "base" assets.
07:10 <+perlDreamer> Most Nav's show 1 level
07:10 <+perlDreamer> simplified versions of Assets could really speed things up
07:10 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/navigation-max-assets-per-level-/-max-assets#wUAmOUkwTuB47SjwjEfzdw
07:10 <@preaction> isn't "ancestorLimit" what we're talking about?
07:11 <+perlDreamer> that's number of levels up from me (.)
07:11 <@preaction> no, it's endingLineageLength
07:12 <+perlDreamer> that's depth down, not number per level
07:12 <@preaction> then what's ancestorLimit?
07:12 <+perlDreamer> number of levels up from me to display
07:13 <@preaction> so one is depth down from root, and the other is depth up from current
07:13 <+perlDreamer> not from root, from ., to use directory nomenclature
07:14 <@preaction> so one is depth down from current, otre is depth up from current, nothing to limit how long those branches reach
07:15 < PedersenMJ> However, the idea I was originally discussing is not depth, but breadth of a given level.
07:15 <+perlDreamer> only the select boxes for the Asset.  I think it's up or down 5-6 levels
07:15 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: exactly
07:16 <@preaction> PedersenMJ: it might be best to lump this into the Asset Report wobject, since its plan is to not add all the nav-specific stuff and instead add all the asset's data (from Asset->get)
07:17 < PedersenMJ> I'd be okay with it either way, honestly. My big goal is to be able to allow people to create a "news" type folder, dump articles in there, and have them be pulled out (order not yet specified) and links put onto a page.
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08:16 < PedersenMJ> heading to bed myself. See you all later!
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15:55 < SDuensin> Good morning.
15:56 < ckotil> good morning indeed
15:56 < ckotil> a bt nippy. but this week should mark the end of that 
16:04 < SDuensin> It's tired in here.  I need more coffee.
16:04 < ckotil> i had  a lot of sleep last night, and a relaxing evening. 
16:04 < ckotil> cleaned up the house, basically spring cleaned for a couple hours
16:05 < ckotil> which had me sleeping even better than usual
16:05 < SDuensin> I watched 24 and worked on WebGUI sites.  :-)
16:10 < ckotil> that was a helluvan episode of 24
16:11 < SDuensin> Best part:  "Damn, Jack."
16:11 < ckotil> haha
16:11 < ckotil> he took em all out
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16:35 < SDuensin> Good morning, bopbop 
16:35 < bopbop> morning!
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16:37 < SDuensin> Hey cap10morgan 
16:37 < cap10morgan> Hey
16:44 < SDuensin> I think I broke my web host.  :-)
16:45 < SDuensin> But I did it in a good way...
16:45 < SDuensin> Nothing works *except* WebGUI!
17:00 < ckotil> heh
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18:54 <+perlDreamer> It irks me when you try to help somebody on the boards and they completely ignore you.
18:55 <@rizen> indeed
18:56 <+perlDreamer> it's worse for you guys.
18:56 <+perlDreamer> People pay you to help them, then they ignore you.
18:57 <+perlDreamer> and then bad mouth you and the software
18:57 <@rizen> still at least we get paid, you just get shafted
18:58 <+perlDreamer> This is true.
18:58 <+perlDreamer> You always know how to cheer me up, rizen.
18:58 < SDuensin> hehe
18:58 <@vayde> he has quite the bedside manner ;)
18:59 <+perlDreamer> Hey, vayde! Up for some testing?
19:00 <@vayde> Heh.  Lemme solve, or at least get a head start on my other labors.  Lest TMRFE be responsible for my unemployment too.
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21:13 <@preaction> nearly five hours later, i find that the solution to my problem is incredibly stupid: http://whyiesucks.blogspot.com/2006/07/ie-cannot-set-events-via-dom-in-order.html
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> i always use the yui to set eventhandlers
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> yui rocks
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> like elvis does
21:15 < SDuensin> Go IE!
21:21 <@vayde> I have a bunch of ninjas, wanna make a trip west preaction?
21:21 < cap10morgan> How do you get your favicon.ico file to show up as /favicon.ico on your site so IE will see it?
21:22 < cap10morgan> I've tried setting the URL to "favicon.ico" and it renders the entire asset inaccessible, even for editing
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> upload a file with url /favico.ico
21:22 < cap10morgan> i have to delete it
21:22 <@preaction> i don't think i have the ... testicular fortitude to challenge Skynet
21:24 <@vayde> that's ok, I dont actually have any ninjas in WA.  Strangely enough, the only place I do have ninjas awaiting my commands is Minneapolis... and Madison.
21:28 <+perlDreamer> they can sleep over at my house!
21:28 <+perlDreamer> now, how do we get them from WI to OR?
21:28 <@vayde> Not unless you want your butt kicked by a 15 yr old girl, and then your wife.
21:29 <+perlDreamer> hm
21:29 <+perlDreamer> I was more concerned with transportation logistics than other pursuits
21:29 <+perlDreamer> We have a software company that needs attitude adjustment
21:29 <+perlDreamer> Focus
21:30 <+perlDreamer> focus
21:30 <@vayde> ahh, my mistake
21:30 <@vayde> I'll tell you this, they'd never see her coming.
21:30 <@vayde> Or believe what they were seeing when a 90lb little slip of a thing starts tossing 200lb guys around like confetti
21:31 <+MrHairgrease> cap10morgan
21:31 <+MrHairgrease> what i said doesn't work
21:32 < cap10morgan> MrHairgrease: yes, I got it working though
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> my asset is editable though
21:32 < cap10morgan> thank you!
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> oh
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> how?
21:32 < cap10morgan> i just needed a <link rel="shortcut icon" href="/uploads/xx/xx/xxxxxxxxxxxx/favicon.ico" /> tag in the template
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> ah
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> doh
21:32 < cap10morgan> that seems to work w/ all browsers
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> i knew that
21:32 < cap10morgan> including IE
21:32 <+MrHairgrease> =)
21:35 < cap10morgan> my devs were putting pngs everywhere and only testing on Fx
21:35 < cap10morgan> where those work fine :)
21:46 <+perlDreamer> cap, I know it's after the fact, but there's a wiki article on the favicon
21:46 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/changing-the-site-icon-in-webgui
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23:29 <@vayde> Wow preaction, my kung fu is definitely improving if I can knock you offline with a single IM
23:30 <@preaction> that was YOU?
23:30 <@preaction> my computer just started smoking and flashing
23:30 <@preaction> then spat a cloud of black ink at me
23:30 <@preaction> i'm lucky to be alive!
23:30 <@vayde> tele-smack (tm)
23:31 <@vayde> been working on it for years
23:31 <@preaction> you, my friend, are a God
23:31 <@preaction> all i ask is that you use your new powers wisely
23:31 <@vayde> no, no, no.  you're thinking of tele-smite.  That's different
23:31 <@vayde> I'll have to level up before I can do that.
23:37 <@vayde> You know what I don't understand?  Does anybody actually buy stock that gets advertised to you via spam?  I mean, does this strike you as a good investment?
23:38 -!- bopbop [n=kmccombs@68-114-216-78.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
23:40 <@vayde> Anybody know how to force vi to use a certain syntax highlighting scheme?
23:43 <@vayde> nm.  :set ft=perl will do it
23:43 < SDuensin> vi = Virtually Incomprehensible
23:44 <@vayde> hey, it's kinda like a secret handshake.
23:45 <@vayde> I have a couple students that use emacs, and I try to keep them from holding hands :P
23:45 < SDuensin> hehe
23:45 < SDuensin> I still stick with JOE.  Good old WordStar.
23:47 < SDuensin> Anyway, I'm off.  Headed home.  Talk to you all later.
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00:09 < nuba> whoa. WordStar.. now thats ancient stuff
00:09 < nuba> i remember seeing wordstar around when i was, like, 7 yrs old
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00:55 < perlmonkey2> Ahh....I think there might have been a problem with the Plainblack website caching.  I went to the downloads page and the latest release was 7.3.3.
01:02 < perlmonkey2> Woot....yet another hands free upgrade (7.3.5-7.3.14)
01:04 <+perlDreamer> ah yes.  Those have been rare recently
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01:58 < perlmonkey2> Bah....Stupid Weather::Com req
01:58 <+perlDreamer> just force install it
01:58 < perlmonkey2> OOInterface test on line 167
01:58 < perlmonkey2> returning 2005
01:58 < perlmonkey2> let me guess, it was written in 2005
01:58 <+perlDreamer> yup, it's a bad test
01:59 < perlmonkey2> hmm....maybe I'll send in a patch tonight.....that is a few years for it to still be bad.
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04:43 < PedersenMJ> good evening
05:06 -!- perlDreame1 [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #webgui
05:06 < perlDreame1> bother
05:06 < perlDreame1> I forgot to log off at work
05:11  * PedersenMJ changes perlDreamer's name to Pooh.
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05:45 < perlDreame1> What did you say PedersenMJ?  I have a bit of fluff in my ear...
05:48 < PedersenMJ> That's okay, preaction . Thanks for noticin' me.
05:48 <@preaction> you're welcome
05:52 < perlDreame1> Does anyone know how to make Devel::Cover generate an HTML report by default, instead of just the text one?
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07:48 < PedersenMJ_> g'night all.
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14:38 < AMH_bob>  /msg NickServ IDENTIFY ma48as
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15:16 <+Radix_> someone needs a new password!
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15:26 < nuba> heh
15:32 < AMH_bob> hello
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15:52 < SDuensin> Good morning.
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16:44 < rizen_> howdy neighbors
16:45 < SDuensin> Hey rizen 
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16:53 <@rizen> So how's your WebGUI migration going SD?
16:54 < SDuensin> The WebGUI side is going great.  Arguing with legacy crap is going to drive me to drink.  :-)
16:55 <@rizen> I tried to make the API extremely easy to use to import existing external content. Our devs have loved it for that.
16:56 <@rizen> But at the same time, they always curse the legacy systems they have to export the data from
16:56 <@rizen> cuz there generally is no API
16:56 <@rizen> so it's a bunch of raw database queries, and raw file parsing
16:56 < SDuensin> I haven't managed to get that far yet.  I need to get the existing Drupal site running on the new server before I can deal with the migration.
16:56 <@rizen> ah
16:56 <@rizen> is it already running elsewhere?
16:57 < SDuensin> I did read a bit on the WebGUI stuff though.  :-)
16:57 <@rizen> perhaps you could write your migration script to work across the net
16:57 < SDuensin> The Drupal site?  Yes.
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16:57 < SDuensin> I could, but I'm time constrained on this.  I need to get all my sites off the old server so I can quit paying for it.
16:57 <@rizen> ah
16:58 < SDuensin> Yea.  Migrating servers while entertaining my 2 year old daughter was kinda tough last night.  No wonder I couldn't get it all working.  :-)
17:02 <@rizen> that would do it almost every time
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17:30 < SDuensin> rizen - Simple request for the new WRE...  If you have to "setenvironment" with it, change the user's prompt so they know what environment they're in.
17:30 <@rizen> is IRC an RFE list?
17:31 < SDuensin> Might be.  :-)
17:32 <+MrHairgrease> irc = intrinsic rfe channel right?
17:32 < SDuensin> hehehe
17:34 <@rizen> insignificant requests chided
17:36 <+MrHairgrease> intolerable rambling childtalk
17:36 <@rizen> insolence rhetoric and chicanery
17:42 <@vayde> irritable reprobates and children
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> irc = who gives a damn
17:43 <@vayde> I'm just not happy until I get to chime in with my 2 cents worth... I learned it from my ex-wife
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> oh
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> i didn't know
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> prolly b/c i don't have an ex-wife
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> =)
17:45 <@vayde> I only made 3 mistakes:  marrying a laywer, marrying THAT laywer, and getting married. =)
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> ah well
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> at least they're correlated
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19:15 <+crythias> greetings
19:15 <+crythias> perldreamer, rizen, preaction, you here?
19:15 <@preaction> yes'm
19:15 <+crythias> yessir, would be more appropriate, but whatever.
19:15 <+crythias> :)
19:15 <@rizen> indeed
19:16 <+crythias> anyway. What would be the ramifications of giving a UILevel to a group?
19:16 <+crythias> Example being the posts by philadev regarding the Admin Group Template Var
19:17 <+crythias> if the *group* had an effective UI Level, that would make the editors stuck with the group's UILevel (or at least a thought of the max UILevel being the one assigned to the group)
19:18 <@rizen> but then which group would you go with?
19:18 <@rizen> if each group could have a UI level
19:18 <@rizen> and each user can be a member of various groups
19:19 <+crythias> MAX (YourUILevel, EditorUILevel, AdminUILevel)
19:19 <+crythias> er. sorry
19:19 <+crythias> I didn't say that right
19:19 <+crythias> MAX (YourUILevel,EditorUILevel,ViewerUILevel)
19:20 <@rizen> do you understand the performance implications therein? on every request, you need to then check all the UI levels of every group that the user belongs to
19:20 <@rizen> plus i don't even know wha tEditorUiLevel and viewerUiLevel means
19:21 <+crythias> For an Asset to be edited, it checks what UI Level you have before you can perform certain functions.
19:21 <@rizen> unless you mean the edit and view groups of the asset
19:21 <@rizen> which is what it sounds like
19:21 <+crythias> and what group(s) of which you are members, yeah.
19:21 <@rizen> and then you have two problems
19:21 <@rizen> it has to recursively check all the groups of groups
19:21 <@rizen> so we're back to performance
19:22 <@rizen> and secondly...if it's attached to the group
19:22 <@rizen> and the user can set which group is assigned to the asset
19:22 <@rizen> then they can effectively set their own ui level
19:22 <+crythias> that's why I'm asking.
19:22 <@rizen> if you want them to be able to set their own UI level
19:22 <@rizen> then just expose the UI Level to them in their preferences
19:23 <@rizen> just set the user profile field for UI level to be "editable" 
19:23 <@rizen> and there you have it
19:23 <+crythias> hrm. OK, then what's a good way to have some editors have some choices removed for an asset in one area but not another? can they duplicate the .pm
19:24 <+crythias> like, Article.pm to Article2.pm?
19:24 <@rizen> why would you ever want that?
19:24 <+crythias> "Unfortunately, I only want the edit controls to be hidden when this asset shows up in this particular template. I'm using an asset proxy to a preconfigured navigation that is set to edit by Admin. However our users occasionally attempt to alter the few assets that are embedded in this template. Primarily because the edit icons lead them to believe they have that ability. That, of course, results in getting a permission denied error which initiates a chain o
19:24 <@rizen> i just don't understand
19:24 <+crythias> not me.
19:25 <@rizen> the answer is TFB
19:25 <@rizen> do it a different way
19:25 <+crythias> fair 'nuff.
19:25 <+crythias> the thread, btw: http://www.plainblack.com/web_design_templates_and_themes/admin-group-template-var/4#id8dUXh44OqZa7cfciuxZsaw
19:26 <@rizen> the reason is, there's no reason to sacrifice performance for a feature that is likely to be used by less than 1% of users,a nd then less than 1% of the time
19:26 <+crythias> then again, they could simply not include the edit controls macro in the article template.
19:26 <@rizen> yup
19:26 <+crythias> by macro I ment tmpl_var...
19:26 <+crythias> meant. sheesh.
19:26 <@rizen> hence "rizen: do it a different way"
19:27 <+crythias> yeah. I was trying to figure out the "different ways" and .. yeah. same thing I've done before. render the full document then grab the html and replace the tmp_var controls.
19:50 <@preaction> does setting a thumbnail size of "1" in the collab system act specially? "1" seems to leave the image at full size instead of generating a thumbnail, but 2 will make a 2px thumb
19:50 <@preaction> if so, i'm going to post a bug about getting that documented
19:50 <+perlDreamer> sounds like a bug
19:50 <+perlDreamer> smells like a bug
20:00 <+perlDreamer> but I don't think it's a bug in the CS, it's either in Image::Magick or in Storage::Image
20:08 <+perlDreamer> there's a related bug in the WebGUI::Image
21:00 < ckotil> question, can I uplaod mega huge iso's (cd iso's) to webgui without blowing it up?
21:00 < ckotil> and without my db getting insanely huge
21:01 <@rizen> it doesnt' affect db size
21:01 < ckotil> ok wikd.
21:01 <@rizen> but it does affect the size of your uploads folder
21:01 < ckotil> thats fine.
21:01 < ckotil> we'd have to store the large files anyway
21:01 <@rizen> each revisiion of the file will create a new copy of the file also
21:01 < ckotil> i was going to place them in a passthru
21:01 < ckotil> OHHH
21:02 <@rizen> also...your apache will likely time out uploading such a huge file
21:02 < ckotil> heh
21:02 <@rizen> methinks you'd be better off doing a passthru folder
21:02 < ckotil> noone wants to do that :/
21:02 < ckotil> i can raise the timeout limit
21:02 < ckotil> and i alredy raised the apreq2file size limit
21:18 < ckotil> hrm problem with raising timeout limit, is that it raises it for every connection
21:18 < ckotil> and that coudl be baad
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21:21 < cap10morgan> If you have a date in a userDefined field, is it possible to do formatting on that date in the template? Or would that require a custom macro or javascript?
21:21 <+perlDreamer> how is the date entered?
21:21 <+perlDreamer> epoch or human
21:22 < cap10morgan> human
21:22 < cap10morgan> but mysql-style
21:23 < cap10morgan> 2007.-04-11
21:23 < cap10morgan> er, no period
21:23 < cap10morgan> weicd
21:23 < cap10morgan> wow, i can type!
21:23 <+perlDreamer> you need to use either javascript or a custom macro
21:23 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: ok, thanks
21:24 <+perlDreamer> The good news is that you can use the existing date macro for the starting point of a custom one.
21:24 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: good call
21:25 < ckotil> does this seem like a timeout error? [Tue Apr 10 17:14:58 2007] [error] [client 129.79.9.37] End of file found, referer:
21:28 < ckotil> the file SEEMS to have been uplaoded into public/uploads just fine
21:28 < cap10morgan> i guess also, since it's a userDefined field, I could just run a query to go through and convert them all to the format I want and then tell people to input them that way in the future
21:28 < cap10morgan> since it's not actually a date field...
21:31 < ckotil> WORKS.
21:31 < ckotil> that error was from something else.
21:32 < ckotil> tho didnt make much senes.
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22:27 < ckotil> folder asset needs an option to reverse alphabetise items.
22:27 < ckotil> im going to create aan rfe, then if i have time ill try to implement
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23:32 <+perlDreamer> ckotil, that's a very simple RFE
23:32 <+perlDreamer> It should sail right through
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23:53 < ckotil> i think so too
23:54 < ckotil> heading home.. have a good night
--- Day changed Thu Apr 12 2007
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01:45 <@rizen> howdy peeps
01:47 <+perlDreamer> hey, man
01:47 <+perlDreamer> what's shakin' in Wisconsin?
01:47 <@rizen> it's been snowing here all day
01:48 <@rizen> not to mention that i had a very busy one today
01:48 <+perlDreamer> but the boards have been so light...?
01:48 <@rizen> answered nearly 70 emails
01:48 <@rizen> and 16 phone calls
01:48 <@rizen> fixed two bugs
01:48 <+perlDreamer> sweet!
01:48 <@rizen> fixed 3 server problems
01:49 <@rizen> wrote a speech that i have to give in about an hour
01:49 <@rizen> and interviewed two potential candidates for our new LTE position
01:49 <@rizen> that's a pretty full day
01:49 <+perlDreamer> what's an LTE?
01:51 <+perlDreamer> Linux Technical Expert
01:52 <@rizen> Limited Term Employment
01:52 <+perlDreamer> Loud Typewriter Executioner
01:52 <+perlDreamer> ah
01:52 <@rizen> i want to hire someone for a few months to clean up bugs and write tests
01:52 <@rizen> cuz everone on staff is so busy with projects and stuff
01:53 <+perlDreamer> It's so busy preaction hasn't even been talking on IRC that much
01:53 <@rizen> yup
01:53 <@rizen> very busy
01:54 <@rizen> he, like me, is sharing Frank's workload while he's on vacation
01:54 <+perlDreamer> Frank's on vacation?
01:54 <+perlDreamer> no way
01:54 <@rizen> he's doing the dev stuff that frank does, and i'm writing up quote requests and dev specs
01:54 <+perlDreamer> Frank work's like 16 hours a day 6 days/week
01:54 <@rizen> yup, and burned out because of it
01:55 <+perlDreamer> that's no good
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02:12 < nuba> who's Frank?
02:12 < nuba> as in, irc nick..
02:12 <@rizen> he's on here so little i don't even know
02:12 <@rizen> rizzo maybe
02:13 <@preaction> khenn
02:13 <@rizen> ah, there you go
02:13 <@preaction> msg chanserv access #webgui list
02:24 <@rizen> i'm sitting at a coffee shop
02:24 <@rizen> and there are three girls sitting next to me
02:25 <@rizen> who have a LPM that's off the charts
02:25 <@rizen> LPM = 'likes' per minute
02:25 <@rizen> it's so 'like', just, 'like',  do it, 'like', you know
02:25 < cap10morgan> that's, like, a bummer, rizen
02:25 <@preaction> omg like seriously?
02:26 <@preaction> rotflol omg gtg kthxbye
02:26 <@rizen> it's giving me a headache
02:26 <@rizen> methinks i'll have to move
02:26 <@rizen> it's almost time to head over to madmongers to give my talk
02:26 <@rizen> so i guess i'll just shutdown and head over there
02:26 <@rizen> talk at you later guys
02:26 <@rizen> like goodbye or something
02:26 <@rizen> like so totally like later
02:27 <@preaction> omg <3 ttyl bbq
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02:27 < cap10morgan> hehe
02:29 <+perlDreamer> ponies
02:29 <+perlDreamer> kittens
02:29 <+perlDreamer> puppies
02:29 <@preaction> OMG KITTENS
02:30 <@preaction> hey... it's not caturday
02:30 <@preaction> wait. every day is caturday!
02:30 < cap10morgan> http://www.rathergood.com/
02:30 <+perlDreamer> preaction: you going to be around later tonight?  I'd like to talk about the calendar with you.
02:31 <@preaction> i might be, otherwise i have a "vacation" coming up, and after i accomplish the one thing i want, i've got a large calendar rewrite/refactor to do (to fix bugs and basically do everything that i half-assed in the 6 hours before release)
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03:09 < cap10morgan> I have a phantom asset type being loaded at the top of my new content menu. Where can I find out what all classes WebGUI is loading into that?
03:10 < cap10morgan> It has no name and acts like a Navigation asset if I try to deploy (but all the i18n strings are blank).
03:31 < cap10morgan> nm, i deleted my Asset_Navigation.pm l10n file
03:31 < cap10morgan> haha
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04:12 < PedersenMJ> good eventide.
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05:45 < PedersenMJ> Okay, must ask: How does everybody else deal with the "I'm not in the mood to do any coding/etc" blues, and get themselves motivated?
06:05  * PedersenMJ drops a pin
06:21  * PedersenMJ notes that it was a pin from a hand grenade?
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06:25 <+Radix-wrk> hey roy
06:27 <+snapcount> how's it going?
06:28 <+snapcount> should be about lunch time in your neck of the woods right about now eh?
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06:37 <+Radix-wrk> yup.. just about :)
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08:03 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I'm lame, I admit it, but I just played Doom 3 for the first time ever. I'd heard good things, but never actually tried it. Gonna buy it ASAP.
08:03 <+snapcount> can you download a demo?
08:04 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, and that's how I got to try it this time, actually.
08:05 <+snapcount> I'll have to check it out then
08:05 <+snapcount> that's how I got hooked on supcom so maybe I shouldn't...
08:05  * snapcount ponders
08:06 < PedersenMJ> I've only ever had two games that really affected my heart rate. The 7th Guest (play most of it overnight, with the lights out, and headphones on, by yourself, it gets creepy), and Doom 3.
08:06 < PedersenMJ> I'm now doing my cool off, to return to normal, before trying for sleep. That, and I need to find the duct tape mod for it.
08:06 <+snapcount> I'll have to try it out then... I've got surround sound and a sub now on my system
08:08 < PedersenMJ> Oh crap... I can't imagine what that would do to me with lights out. And I didn't even make it very far!
08:08 <+snapcount> you're getting me all excited =D
08:08 < PedersenMJ> http://ducttape.glenmurphy.com/
08:09 < PedersenMJ> Trust me, you *want* the duct tape mod. Trying to switch between flashlight and shotgun is *very* difficult to do when having the living crap beat (or shot!) out of you.
08:10 < PedersenMJ> BTW, the demo I downloaded was 465 megs (the freaking !demo!)
08:10 <+Radix-wrk> that's pretty small in this day and age
08:11 < PedersenMJ> Really? Huh, guess I've been out of PC gaming for far too long then. I remember when 80 megs was huge.
08:11 <+Radix-wrk> supreme commander demo is 1.2GB, C&C 3 demo is 1.8GB, and that's getting almost average
08:12 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.fileplanet.com/top50.aspx?s=174&v=90001
08:13 < PedersenMJ> Geez. Yep, I've been out of it.
08:13 <+Radix-wrk> Sorry.. got those mixed up.. supcom was 1GB, C&C 1.2, and something else was 1.8GB
08:13 < PedersenMJ> Well, for that, you get thirty lashes with a wet noodle.
08:13 < PedersenMJ> Administered by JT at his earliest leisure.
08:13 <+Radix-wrk> I got accepted into the LOTR online beta.. and the install for that was a whopping 3.5GB
08:15 < PedersenMJ> Someday, I'll be willing to do that. For now, though, I needed a game to play that was more action than stuff like minesweeper/etc. And I wasn't finding it anyplace else. The D3 demo was perfect for me :)
08:15 <+Radix-wrk> We had a customer complain recently about the size of our new installers for our software here - 64MB
08:16 <+Radix-wrk> generated a lot of in-house discussion on it all.. I did a bit of research to show that it's actually pretty small in this day and age
08:17 < PedersenMJ> Meh. If it fits on a CD, I'm okay with it as an installer. And 64MB? That's not too much. Especially when you consider that that is a whole program.
08:17 <+Radix-wrk> Half-Life episode one has some freaky bits with flashlights btw
08:18 <+Radix-wrk> there's a couple of spots in that where you get rushed by a heap of creeps in a building underground, and your flashlight batteries never last long enough..
08:18 < PedersenMJ> I'd love to play Half-Life. But have heard too many complaints with Steam. And really dislike the fact that if my net connect goes down, I lose ability to play the game.
08:19 < PedersenMJ> Unless things have changed in a big way, HL2+ is out for me.
08:19 <+Radix-wrk> pfft.. you can still play offline :P
08:19 < PedersenMJ> I *thought* I heard that if the game can't connect to Steam, it won't start. Did I misunderstand?
08:20 <+Radix-wrk> there is a steam offline mode for games
08:21 < PedersenMJ> Okay, things have improved. That's good.
08:21 <+Radix-wrk> You do need to be ONLINE to select that mode.
08:22 <+Radix-wrk> that's the big fubar really.. you essentially download your license and lock it when you do so - so you need access to the steam servers to get your license.
08:22 <+Radix-wrk> Once you've done so, you're fine though
08:22  * PedersenMJ shakes his head. That's far enough for me. Valve may have the greatest game ever made. But I very much doubt I'll be willing to put up with Steam.
08:23 <+Radix-wrk> Steam rocks if you're online though.
08:23 <+Radix-wrk> It makes updates very simple
08:23 <+Radix-wrk> You can install it on another machine and download the whole game easily
08:24 <+Radix-wrk> it means licenses for games are dictated by your steam username/pass rather than machines, etc.
08:24 < PedersenMJ> Most times, I am online, true. But, as I've just been reminded by another program I use: When it's not available, and I need it then, I'm going to be pissed off. I'll just avoid the pissed off part.
08:26 <+Radix-wrk> it never bothered me
08:27 < PedersenMJ> It would me, sooner or later. It's why I left Windows behind. It's why I'm pondering writing up a GPL'ed CacheMate replacement right now, since I don't have the source, and can't fix my problem because of it (and yes, I could, and would, fix it otherwise).
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08:37 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, heading to bed now. Good <insert time of day here>, all!
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15:38 < SDuensin> Good morning!
16:10 < AMH_bob> Eh, goodmorning back to you!
16:10 < SDuensin> Hey AMH_bob 
16:10 < AMH_bob> All is well I hope?
16:10 < AMH_bob> (btp it's 3 pm here)
16:10 < SDuensin> Well enough.  I won't really know until I get through my coffee.  :-)
16:11 < AMH_bob> Enjoy!
16:11 < SDuensin> Hehe
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18:00 <@rizen> As I was going to St. Ives,
18:00 <@rizen> I met a man with seven wives,
18:00 <@rizen> Every wife had seven sacks,
18:00 <@rizen> Every sack had seven cats,
18:00 <@rizen> Every cat had seven kits -
18:00 <@rizen> Kits, cats, sacks, and wives,
18:00 <@rizen> How many were going to St. Ives?
18:01 <@vayde> 1
18:02 < SDuensin> :-)
18:03 <@vayde> there once was a man from nantucket,
18:03 <@vayde> ... nevermind
18:03 <@rizen> you win, and the prize is.............drum roll..........a swift kick in the nuts
18:03 < AMH_bob> Bruce Willis fans I asume?
18:04 <@vayde> I always win the cool prizes
18:05 < AMH_bob> Have a nice day (it's 5 pm here and I'm leaving for home)
18:05 < AMH_bob> bye!
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18:10 <@rizen> bye bob
18:10 <@rizen> crap...didn't get him before he left
18:10 < SDuensin> Too slow, chicken marengo!
18:10 <@rizen> don't make me come over there sd
18:11 <@rizen> i might be forced to give vaydes prize to you
18:11 < SDuensin> I'm not scared of you!  I've seen your code!  :-P
18:11 <@rizen> what's that supposed to mean?
18:11  * SDuensin is in a goofy mood.  Too much coffee or something.
18:11 <@rizen> i vote to kickban SD for 3 minutes
18:12 <@rizen> all in favor, say aye
18:12 <@rizen> the ayes have it
18:12 < SDuensin> You should be nice to me.  I'm your biggest fan.  :-)
18:12 <@rizen> You are?
18:12 <@vayde> the eyes are above the nose
18:12 < SDuensin> I am!
18:12 < SDuensin> Just ask me!
18:12 <@rizen> i was not aware that it was possible to have fans in the software industry
18:13 <@rizen> i thought that was reserved for sports and moviestars
18:13 <@rizen> oh, and rockstars
18:13 < SDuensin> Na.  They're all deadbeats.
18:15 < SDuensin> I'm (still) gearing up to really push WebGUI as the ultimate web solution.
18:16 <@rizen> and then you'll convert ZKdesktop to be a webgui addon?
18:17 < SDuensin> Sure, if you help me work out the integration.  
18:17 < SDuensin> I'm still having problems seeing how the two really fit together.  :-(
18:20 <@rizen> someday we'll have to schedule a phone call or something
18:20 <@rizen> and i can explain it to you
18:20 < SDuensin> That'd be cool.  Anything I can do to help WebGUI rule the world.
18:21 < SDuensin> I really wish I could have stuck with WebGUI during the 6.xx days.  It's nice to be back.
18:21 <@rizen> i understand why you and some other people didn't though
18:21 <@rizen> 6.x was rough
18:22 <@rizen> that's part of why we're spending so much time stabilizing 7
18:22 <@rizen> we want people to have a very good and easy time with webgui
18:22 < SDuensin> Wasn't so much issues with 6.xx as much as it was finding a place to host it.
18:23 <@rizen> ah
18:23 <@rizen> true enough. webgui can't be hosted by mortal hosting companies
18:24 < SDuensin> :-)
18:25 < SDuensin> I think I finally have a solution that 1) I can afford, 2) Runs WebGUI, and 3) Runs my other odd stuff.  Now it's time to push it and make some money!
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19:17 <+perlDreamer> Hmmm... I'm busy today, but saw this and thought MrHairGrease would enjoy it.
19:17 <+perlDreamer> http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/04/real_xeyes.html
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19:27 < ckotil> haha
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22:06 < ckotil> anyone know which assets have the reverse sort option?
22:07 <@rizen> only cs as far as i know
22:08 < ckotil> ok.
22:08 < ckotil> thx
22:09 < xdanger> O how nice.... I forgot my ibook's charger at home... went to my parents for a long weekend..
22:09 <@rizen> crap
22:09 <@rizen> is there an apple store nearby?
22:17 < xdanger> no..
22:17 < xdanger> It's a very small town.. about 7k residents..
22:18 < xdanger> I was going to work tommorow, but that's kinda hard with out my computes,ssh-keys,documents etc...
22:21 < ckotil> hrm the sorting done by the cs, isnt what i had in mind.
22:21 < xdanger> tomorrow even..
22:21 < ckotil> i swore i saw an asset that had a radio button you could put to yes or no to reverse sort.
22:21 < ckotil> maybe i was dreaming.
23:02 <@rizen> folder has one for sorting alphabetically
23:02 <@rizen> but not reverse
23:10 < ckotil> yah.
23:25 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-140.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has joined #webgui
23:26 < cap10morgan> Does the "Encrypt content" setting give up trying to redirect to https:// after a few tries and just show the page unencrypted?
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23:52 < cap10morgan> actually, it doesn't seem to be doing anything at all? was the Encrypt content setting disabled for sites running in the WRE?
23:57 <@rizen> encrypt content forces the url in the nav
23:57 <@rizen> to use https
23:57 <@rizen> but that's all it does
--- Day changed Fri Apr 13 2007
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00:46 <@preaction> does anyone know of a problem with instances of isSerial workflows? i think i found a bug
00:46 <@rizen> what's the problem
00:47 <@preaction> lib/WebGUI/Workflow/Instance.pm line 276 -- it looks to be trying to find the workflowId instead of the instanceId to find if this is the oldest instance of the instance (the one that should be run)
00:48 <@preaction> at least, i keep trying to run an instance of an isSerial workflow from the admin console, and no matter what it returns "waiting" because of that line
00:49 <@rizen> yeah, it should only run the oldest instance of a given workflow type
00:49 <@rizen> looking at code
00:49 <@preaction> so it should get the instanceId of the oldest one, and only run if that matches the current instance
00:50 <@rizen> correct
00:50 <@rizen> that query probably should have a "limit 1"
00:50 <@rizen> attached to the end of it
00:50 <@rizen> but other than that, it looks good
00:51 <@rizen> don't try to check anything in right now though, i'm reorging the svn repo
00:51 <@preaction> k
00:51 <@preaction> select instanceId from WorkflowInstance where workflowId=? order by runningSince <- that's my new query
00:52 <@rizen> oh wait
00:52 <@rizen> i see what you're saying
00:52 <@rizen> yeah, the code is screwed up
00:53 <@rizen> cuz the if
00:53 <@rizen> should also use $self->getId
00:53 <@preaction> yeah, that too
00:53 <@rizen> rather than $workflow->getId
00:53 <@rizen> i'll have the repo fixed in a few minutes
00:53 <@preaction> k
00:53 <@rizen> but you'll need to check out from svn again before you can commit
00:53 <@rizen> because the pathing is going to be different
00:57 <@preaction> ok, np
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02:23 <@preaction> along with the subversion hosting, is webgui.org going to provide other forge-like things? bug forums, project management, site hosting perhaps?
02:27 <@rizen> maybe...one step at a time
02:27 <@rizen> i would like to get to that point eventually
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02:35 <+perlDreamer> uhm, so what's the new URL for doing a svn checkout?
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02:36 <@preaction> svn co https://svn.webgui.org/plainblack/WebGUI <- iirc
02:36 <+perlDreamer> thanks, preaction!
02:37 <@preaction> before we get to those other forge-like things, i think the project manager should get some new features (like built-in bug tracking, version/milestones tracking, and other things like launchpad.net has)
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02:42 <+perlDreamer> how 'bout we just fix all the bugs first?
02:42 <@preaction> you... trying to keep us focused and on-track...
02:43 <+perlDreamer> yes...
02:43 <+perlDreamer> and I have a whole slew of RFEs to check in ;)
02:43 <@preaction> as in new code? word
02:43 <+perlDreamer> there is a tertiary reason
02:43 <+perlDreamer> I read this today
02:43 <+perlDreamer> http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/04/yahoo_open_sour_1.html
02:43 -!- SDuensin [n=Scott@12-217-162-173.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:43 <+perlDreamer> Here's my favorite quote from it:
02:44 <+perlDreamer> "Therefore, CMSs are moving toward competing not on features, but  
02:44 <+perlDreamer> >on ease of use, aesthetics, support, and other dimensions [this is  
02:44 <+perlDreamer> >classic Clay Christensen innovation curve stuff -- as all products  
02:44 <+perlDreamer> >begin to meet customers basic needs, they must compete on other  
02:44 <+perlDreamer> >dimensions of performance]"
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03:43 < SDuensin> YES!  I think I finally have all my Apaches playing nicely together!
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05:10  * PedersenMJ wavies.
05:10 < SDuensin> hey PedersenMJ 
05:10 < PedersenMJ> How's it going?
05:10 < SDuensin> Making good progress tonight!  Still killing WebGUI, but I think I know why.
05:11 < SDuensin> Pretty sure in my database my site name is "www.duensing.com" and in DNS it's "new.duensing.com".  Breaks mod_proxy when it tries to go to the wrong IP.
05:12 < PedersenMJ> Poor WG. Getting killed, resurrected, and killed again, for no good reason. Poor little wg.
05:12 < SDuensin> It needs to toughen up!  Quit being such a wimp!
05:12 < SDuensin> :-)
05:12 < SDuensin> I've been working on my host all evening.  I think I finally have all three instances of Apache playing nicely together with the management software they use.
05:13 < PedersenMJ> Gah. You sound like my sister. And no, that is *not* a compliment.
05:13 < SDuensin> :-P
05:14 < PedersenMJ> My sister, btw, is a teacher. Elementary Ed. And her response to the kids who get picked on? They need to learn to stand up for themselves. So she won't do anything to intervene.
05:14 < SDuensin> This dual modperl/modproxy setup is going to kill me.
05:15 < PedersenMJ> I never did that setup myself. Mine is a single Apache instance.
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05:15 < SDuensin> They recommend the WRE, I run the WRE.  :-)
05:16 < SDuensin> Ok, damn.  Something else is causing the problem.  The database says "new.duensing.com" just like it should.
05:16 < PedersenMJ> I'll run the WRE for one reason only: Its easier. I had need of something in particular (damned if I can remember what it was, though), which precluded my using the WRE, so I made it work by hand.
05:17 < SDuensin> So any idea why one of my three sites does this?
05:17 < SDuensin> Bad Gateway
05:17 < SDuensin> The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
05:17 < SDuensin> The other two work.
05:17 < PedersenMJ> Maybe it just doesn't like the brand of computer it's runing on?
05:19 < SDuensin> Worked before I backed it up and restored it.
05:20 < PedersenMJ> Seriously, I'd check the upstream, wherever that might be. Sounds like it doesn't know how to respond to the request it's being given (specifically, check the error.log there).
05:21 < SDuensin> The log has the IP for "www" in it, not "new".
05:22 < PedersenMJ> Does the upstream know about www though?
05:23 < SDuensin> The other odd thing is that when it fails, Apache dies!
05:23 < PedersenMJ> Ewww.
05:24 < SDuensin> Log says:
05:24 < SDuensin> [Thu Apr 12 22:19:58 2007] [error] (111)Connection refused: proxy: HTTP: attempt to connect to 64.91.249.237:82 (new.duensing.com) failed
05:24 < SDuensin> [Thu Apr 12 22:20:03 2007] [notice] caught SIGTERM, shutting down
05:25 < SDuensin> 64.91.249.237 isn't new.duensing.com.  It's www.duensing.com.
05:26 < SDuensin> Ok, so DNS is screwed up.  Hmm.
05:27 < PedersenMJ> Check that server, and see what it says for which name gets which ip address? Most reliable method is usually to ping.
05:27 < SDuensin> Yea. that server is wrong.
05:28 < PedersenMJ> Check /etc/hosts then?
05:29 < SDuensin> Yea.  I gotta find it in the control panel so things stay in sync.
05:30 < SDuensin> I've already trashed this server once.  Don't want to ask them to install it again.  :-)
05:30 < PedersenMJ> Ah, but trashing the server is fun! :)
05:36 < SDuensin> Can I flush my DNS cache on Linux?
05:37 < PedersenMJ> I've never had to try, honestly. I don't know how.
05:37 < SDuensin> Same here.  :-)
05:37 < SDuensin> OS X is "lookupd -flushcache"
05:37 < PedersenMJ> The only suggestion I would have would be to verify that nslookup gives you the right results, and then restart Apache.
05:37 < SDuensin> Ok, now the dumb control panel says Apache is down.  ps says otherwise.
05:40 < PedersenMJ> Well, the control panel could be a bit behind the times. Or maybe it's watching for when Apache is actually accepting connections.
05:42 < SDuensin> OpenDNS knows who I am.
05:46 < SDuensin> Screw it.  "reboot" fixes things.
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Usually. Unless it's Windows, in which case it only probably does :)
05:47 < SDuensin> It's a VM with CentOS4 in it.
05:48 < PedersenMJ> So, where you parking that, and how much is it costing you?
05:48 < SDuensin> LiquidWeb.   $100 a month.
05:48 < SDuensin> I had the $60 package, but it ran out of RAM as soon as I started WebGUI.
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Dang. Too much for me. I pay $100/month for business class. Drawback: I'm responsible for my own servers. Advantage: I'm responsible for my own servers :)
05:50 < SDuensin> Kinda the same here.  It's my box.  I'm root.  I just don't have to maintain it.  And they have far more bandwidth than I could ever hope to have.
05:52 < PedersenMJ> True, but I'm saving the broadband bill, basically. I pay $100/month for my broadband, *and* for ability to host my own servers. To me, it's worth it.
05:54 < SDuensin> I can't get enough bandwidth where I'm at to be a decent host.
05:55 < PedersenMJ> Ah, I worry about that myself. So, I just make sure I'm too boring to slashdot or digg :)
06:08 < SDuensin> Gotta run - night bud.
06:10 < PedersenMJ> g'night, cya l8r
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15:47 < SDuensin> Good morning.
15:48 < AMH_bob> Good morning!
15:48 < SDuensin> Hey AMH_bob.
15:48 < AMH_bob> I was about to get really sad about my WebGUI progress....
15:49 < AMH_bob> but, a small progress has been made and it's looking good again
15:49 < AMH_bob> How was your coffee this morning?
15:51 < SDuensin> Making tea today.  Working from home.  :-)
15:52 < SDuensin> My WebGUI progress has been mixed lately as well.  Dang WRE keeps blowing up on me.
15:53 < AMH_bob> Haha, I have not had that problem; somebody else made some virtual machines we can work on.
15:53 < AMH_bob> I'm just doing development
15:53 < SDuensin> I'd like to get far enough to do development.  :-/
15:54 < AMH_bob> :P Wait until someone trough's you in without documentation and makes you do it :P
15:55 < AMH_bob> But it's a lot of fun when things start working right! 
15:55 < AMH_bob> (Thank god for those beautiful moments when it works right!)
15:56 < SDuensin> I'm waiting for that moment.  Maybe later today.
15:57 < AMH_bob> Now I'm gonna start on the i18n stuff - that has to be done too. I'll catch ya later!
15:58 < SDuensin> See ya!
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16:35 <@rizen> AMH_bob: how's the project progressing overall?
16:35 < SDuensin> Morning, rizen.
16:36 <@rizen> howdy
16:36 < SDuensin> Ever have Apache run out of semaphore-arrays?
16:36 <@rizen> yup
16:36 < SDuensin> What'd I do wrong to cause it?
16:36 < AMH_bob> Hi rizen, We're making progress
16:37 <@rizen> generally speaking you only run out of semaphores if your apache processes are being killed or are crashing
16:37 < AMH_bob> AMH_mari has made a perl template converter to convert our existing templates
16:38 < SDuensin> Crashing would cover it.  :-/
16:38 < AMH_bob> our Designer is getting into making new templates 
16:38 <@rizen> you should know that the restart command in wremonitor cleans up semaphores
16:38 < AMH_bob> I'm working on template selection
16:38 < SDuensin> The WRE mod_proxy server keeps blowing up for some odd reason.
16:38 <@rizen> so you could use that if you need to
16:38 < SDuensin> That's helpful to know.
16:38 <@rizen> AMH_bob. glad to hear it
16:39 <@rizen> that's cool that your templates were standard enough
16:39 <@rizen> that you could use a perl script to convert them
16:39 < AMH_bob> We're running on Virtual Machines for development;
16:39 <@rizen> like VMWare?
16:39 < AMH_bob> our WebGUI server still has to be optimized, but thats not a priority yet
16:40 < AMH_bob> yep VMWare machines running fedora core 6
16:40 <@rizen> sweet
16:40 <@rizen> i use  a VMWare serverfarm for WRE development and builds
16:40 < AMH_bob> yep, we're rolling along just nicely
16:40 <@rizen> it's just easier to work on lots of os's
16:41 <@rizen> but i can imagine that it would also be good for creating contained dev environments
16:41 < AMH_bob> cool, they sure save a lot of time configuring - you just get out a copy or backup and your up in no time!
16:41 <@rizen> each of our employee's gets high end laptops so they can run their own environment right on their local machine
16:42 <@rizen> true enough
16:43 < AMH_bob> I'm acutually running a fedora workstation in a VM machine and WebGUI in another, on the same machine
16:43 < AMH_bob> (I'm really happy I have a high end laptop too)
16:44 <@rizen> some of our devs do that too. our laptops are all mac, but some of our devs prefer to do their dev work on ubuntu or RHEL so they use parallels for that
16:44 < SDuensin> MACK!
16:44  * SDuensin cheers!
16:44 <@rizen> SD, are you a mac user?
16:44 < AMH_bob> My home machine is a Mac and my test laptop is an Ubuntu machine
16:44 < SDuensin> On a MacBook Pro right now.  :-)
16:45 < AMH_bob> Mac rocks!
16:45 <@rizen> AMH_bob, what platform will you deploy on?
16:46 < AMH_bob> probably Fedora Core 6
16:47 < AMH_bob> About the wiki on the site... it seems a bit unorganized... 
16:47 <@rizen> i'm afraid i can't allow you to use FC6
16:47 < AMH_bob> eh?
16:47 <@rizen> just kidding
16:47 <@rizen> =)
16:47 < AMH_bob> :sigh:
16:48 <@rizen> don't you think that wiki's in general a disorganized?
16:49 < ckotil> media wiki is organized as long as the content manager knows what they are doing
16:49 < ckotil> thats my stab at the wiki asset.
16:50 < SDuensin> Hey ckotil 
16:50 < AMH_bob> not necessarily, just chuck a general structured table of contents on the front and let people fill in the blanks. 
16:50 < ckotil> hello
16:50 < AMH_bob> a moderator can keep an eye on the toc
16:50 <@rizen> there's no reason someone can't create a TOC 
16:50 <@rizen> just no one has
16:51 <@rizen> if they did I'd link to it from the front page
16:52 < AMH_bob> :D
16:52 < AMH_bob> I'll have a go at it to night...
16:53 < AMH_bob> although I don't have enough rights for it 
16:53 < AMH_bob> could you bump me up? 
16:53 < AMH_bob> webgui user: rbroen
16:55 < AMH_bob> never mind, the toc is there, but not the first page from the menu
16:55 < AMH_bob> that's kinda odd - isn't it?
16:56 < AMH_bob> Boy, that took 10 weeks more to find than you would expect!
16:56 < ckotil> url?
16:57 < AMH_bob> http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/webgui-installation-table-of-contents
16:57 <@rizen> that's just for that one section though
16:57 < ckotil> ah.
16:57 <@rizen> that's the TOC for installation
16:57 <@rizen> AMH_bob...you don't need any special privs to add a page to the wiki
16:58 < AMH_bob> ok, so back on topic.... a toc for the wiki
16:58 <@rizen> just search for the page you're looking for, and if you don't find it, you'll be prompted to add it
16:59 < AMH_bob> Ok, I'll try and start a gereral TOC tonight (tonight starts in 4 hours over here...)
16:59 <@rizen> ok
17:00 <@rizen> well i gotta go peeps
17:00 <@rizen> nice talking with you AMH_bob
17:00 <@rizen> and yes, the rest of you are chopped liver
17:00 < SDuensin> :-P
17:00 < AMH_bob> :P Have a good one!
17:00 < AMH_bob> bye
17:00  * SDuensin is reinstalling the WRE *again*.
17:08 <+MrHairgrease> does anyone know if it's possible to use a mysql 4.1 client
17:08 <+MrHairgrease> to talk to a mysql 5 server?
17:08 < SDuensin> Maybe.  Probably need to use old passwords on the server.
17:09 <+MrHairgrease> ie. complie dbd::mysql against that client
17:09 <+MrHairgrease> using its mysql_config that is
17:09 <+MrHairgrease> the old pw stuff is mysql 3- problem
17:37 <+MrHairgrease> Is anybody already using the xeyes macro
17:37 <+MrHairgrease> we've installed it on our corporate intranet
17:38 < SDuensin> hehehe
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18:13 <+MrHairgrease> rizedn
18:13 <+MrHairgrease> rizen
18:14 <+MrHairgrease> do you have any idea what's wrong if a site you've just transfered to another apache just shows a blank screen?
18:14 <+MrHairgrease> nothing in the logs
18:14 <+MrHairgrease> just one entry in the acces log
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19:26 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: try assetData.title DESC
19:27 <+perlDreamer> eh, I mean "assetData.title DESC"
19:37 < ckotil> OK
19:37 <+perlDreamer> and if DESC doesn't work, invert it.  I'm forever forgetting what the default is
19:39 < ckotil> works perfectly
19:40 < ckotil> thank you.
19:40 < ckotil> this litle hack will be fine until my rfe gets enough karma
19:40 <+perlDreamer> has your RFE been rated?
19:40 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/nlr/support/weekly-reporting/l1--weekly-reports.html
19:40 < ckotil> not sure.
19:40 < ckotil> i need this functionality for that page
19:41 < ckotil> my service desk uplaods weekly reports, and they dread manually changing the rank
19:41 < ckotil> lamerz.
19:41 < ckotil> buncha lamerz.*
19:42 <+perlDreamer> well, here's the story
19:42 <+perlDreamer> rated RFEs are approved to be added
19:42 <+perlDreamer> the highest ranked RFE gets built by Plain Black
19:42 < ckotil> ok, it has been rated.
19:42 < ckotil> a good rating too. seems 1:1
19:42 < ckotil> or however that works
19:42 <+perlDreamer> but any approved RFE can be added to wG by someone with commit access
19:43 <+perlDreamer> like me, or MrHairGrease, etc.
19:43 <+perlDreamer> if you got a 1:1 rating, that's awesome
19:44 < ckotil> ;]
19:44 <+perlDreamer> attach the patch to the RFE and I'll talk to JT about adding it in for 7.4
19:45 < ckotil> eh, its going to take a lot more than simply appending DESC to the table column, it will need a select box and all that jazz in the display tab
19:45 < ckotil> beyond my skills
19:45 <+perlDreamer> no way
19:45 <+perlDreamer> here's how to add the select box
19:45 <+perlDreamer> find sub definition in Folder.pm
19:46 < ckotil> heh, ok ok. ill give it a shot
19:46 <+perlDreamer> figure out which tab it goes in (Display)
19:46 < ckotil> and i see how to check to see if the box is selected or not.
19:46 <+perlDreamer> right.
19:46 < ckotil> if ($self->get("sortAlphabetically"));  so if i name the box reverseSort, i would get("reverseSort"));
19:46 <+perlDreamer> yes
19:47 < ckotil> can i have multiple %rules then?
19:47 <+perlDreamer> sure
19:47 < ckotil> ok good deal
19:47 <+perlDreamer> also, if you want to go nuts, you could add multiple sort criteria
19:47 <+perlDreamer> dateUpdated
19:47 <+perlDreamer> dateCommitted
19:47 <+perlDreamer> title
19:47 <+perlDreamer> or the default, which is lineage (order added)
19:47 < ckotil> yah, thats how it works in the cs asset
19:47 <+perlDreamer> ah, then you could copy it wholesale!
19:48 < ckotil> heh
19:48 <+perlDreamer> once you get the API, you can build incredible things really quickly
19:48 < cap10morgan> what's the best way to determine which asset revision is the current one (in a sql report)?
19:49 <+perlDreamer> assetData.revisionDate=(SELECT max(revisionDate) from assetData where assetData.assetId=asset.assetId)
19:49 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: yuck, subqueries. ;) ok, thanks, i'll try that.
19:50 <+perlDreamer> cap10morgan: if you can figure out a different way to do it, then you'll be our new wG hero.
19:50 <+perlDreamer> no one likes the subqueries
19:50 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: haha
19:50 < cap10morgan> i'm spending my time on that AssetReport asset instead
19:50 < cap10morgan> i hate sql reports on the webgui database
19:51 <+perlDreamer> they're not fun, that's for sure
19:54 < cap10morgan> really, subqueries would be sweet if mysql lifted even a pinky to do basic optimization of them
19:55 <+perlDreamer> you aren't a postgresql evangelist, are you?
19:56 < cap10morgan> it seems to treat them all as dependent subqueries, when really it should just be running the majority of them once, storing the result in a static list somewhere, and then running a regular query using that list
19:56 < cap10morgan> but it doesn't...
20:03 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: never used it :)
20:03 < cap10morgan> I use and like MySQL, I just have some pet peeves w/ it.
20:05 < cap10morgan> On a totally unrelated topic: Do the collab systems in v.7 no longer have a notion of a moderator?
20:05 <+perlDreamer> I think they do...  Maybe it's more of a commit workflow, though
20:06 < cap10morgan> well, the thing i really need is for a group to be allowed to edit any post
20:06 < cap10morgan> but not the CS asset itself
20:07 <+perlDreamer> It can be done.
20:07 <+perlDreamer> That's how JT set me up to close bugs on the PB bug board.
20:07 <+perlDreamer> but I don't know how to do it
20:08 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: ok, i'll keep digging. thanks!
20:15 < ckotil> pd: got it. it was pretty easy to add the select box. now i need to add the right i8ln stuff
20:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n is pretty easy too
20:16 <+perlDreamer> it's just a hash
20:19 <+perlDreamer> there's also a test to make sure the i18n is set up correctly, if you have problems with it
20:20 <+perlDreamer> and the last step will be to add it to the Help
20:28 <+perlDreamer> and of course, the real question is "Who will make the 4000th commit to WebGUI?"
20:49 < ckotil> i just copied and pasted around in the Folder i18n file
20:49 < ckotil> works fine.
20:49 < ckotil> now that i have this working, im going back to try to have a drop down box
20:49 < ckotil> ripping it from the cs asset, but its giving me this error about not being able to find object getContentLastModified
20:50 < ckotil> im gonna check to see what that is exactly
20:54 < ckotil> well i was unable to straight rip off the drop down box from the cs assets properties hash
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21:01 <+perlDreamer> that error is usually a perl syntax error
21:13 < ckotil> =] got the drop down
21:13 < ckotil> ill post both versions to the rfe
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00:01 <+perlDreamer> You're turning into a monster, ckotil
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05:20 <+perlDreamer> evening, SDuensin
05:21 < SDuensin> Hello perlDreamer 
05:30 <+perlDreamer> I spent all day writing API tests for the Assets.
05:30 <+perlDreamer> Found 4 bugs
05:33 <+perlDreamer> make that 5 bugs
05:34 <+perlDreamer> this last bug is kind of out there
05:35 <+perlDreamer> there's about a 1 in 1 million chance of hitting it
05:47 < SDuensin> Rock on.
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11:27 < GlennL> Hi folks - I'm new to this channel (actually I'm new to IRC)
11:30 < pjesi> hi GlennL
12:00 < GlennL> Hi there - sorry my IRC client didn't ring when you answered
12:00 < GlennL> I'm using Miranda
12:04 < GlennL> Sorry I have to go now - I hope to be back again soon
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12:12 < pjesi> :-)
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20:28 < wgGuest09> I have never posted on an IRC so may be totally out of order, but may I ask a question about webgui?
20:30 < Radix__> Sure.. ask away.. just make sure you stick around for an answer :)
20:30 < Radix__> we're all on different time zones on here.. so there's usually someone around, but you may need to wait a while for someone who can actually answer it!
20:31 < wgGuest09> I hope it is simple.  I understand a folder and page layout but what is dashboard?
20:32 < Radix__> Hmm.. a dashboard is a sort of dynamic object that can contain many other objects
20:32 < pjesi> I have never used it nor understood it
20:33 < Radix__> It's used for portals generally
20:33 < Radix__> imagine it as a customisable page
20:33 < Radix__> you can add shortcuts to other assets to a dashboard and the user can then select from those assets for their own page
20:34 < Radix__> We use it at our company for a front page, the user can select different articles and links based on their job roles
20:34 < pjesi> on the intranet?
20:34 < Radix__> one user might have one customised layout, another user might have a totally different oe
20:34 < Radix__> one
20:34 < Radix__> yeah
20:35 < Radix__> it's a tricky one to explain really
20:35 < wgGuest09> gotcha, so i could run a website using webgui and never use a dashboard asset.
20:35 < Radix__> sure, most people don't ;)
20:35 < pjesi> yes
20:35 < Radix__> I didn't understand it myself until I had it shown to me at the WUC
20:36 < wgGuest09> thanks very much. i need to learn how to register and use this irc i guess.
20:36 < Radix__> grab an irc client, and jump on freenode #webgui :)
20:36 < Radix__> I use xchat myself, but ymmv
20:36 < pjesi> konversation here :)
20:36 < pjesi> and irssi
20:37 < Radix__> yup.. there's many options for irc these days ;)
20:37 < pjesi> true
20:38 < pjesi> most of my friends think that mIRC and IRC is the same, just like IE and WWW :-)
20:38 < Radix__> You're welcome to ask as many questions about stuff on irc.. only request we make is that if we help you understand something better in Webgui then write a wiki article to help others :)
20:39 < Radix__> pjesi: yeah, hate that personally.. which is why I use firefox and xchat ;)
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20:41 <+Radix_> Anyway.. my job here is done.. time to head off to bed.. nite ;)
20:42 < pjesi> nite
20:42 < pjesi> still sunny over here :)
20:43 < nuba> 'night
20:43 < wgGuest09> thanks again and nie radix
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03:05 <+perlDreamer> An early OSCON schedule has been published
03:05 <+perlDreamer> w00t!
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05:51 <+perlDreamer> preaction, vayde, you guys available for a core API talk?
05:51 <@preaction> playing DDR, can't
05:52 <@vayde> not right now.  rebuilding my system  Ubuntu Feisty
05:52 <@vayde> preaction, btw skype runs perfect under feisty
05:52 <@preaction> about damn time
05:52 <+perlDreamer> well, I admire your priorities.  Doing important stuff instead of goofing off like me.
05:54 < SDuensin> Hey gang.
05:54 <@vayde> Hey, either I have to make this box work for everything, or JT is gonna make me use a mac
05:54 < SDuensin> MACK!  YEA!
05:54 <@preaction> you're already going to be made to use a mac
05:54 <@vayde> bleck
05:54 <@vayde> We hates it to pieces
05:54 <+perlDreamer> It's better than WIndows...
05:55 <@preaction> there's a reason I don't have ubuntu on this thing
05:55 <@vayde> that's not saying much
05:55 <@preaction> because iirc Fiesty supports intel macs 100%
05:55 <@preaction> i almost got edgy to work completely
05:56 <@vayde> I hope Feisty goes well for you.  
05:56 <@vayde> I'm not gonna use that 'thing' if I don't have to.  It's sluggish and unresponsive compared with my Ubuntu
05:56 < SDuensin> Anybody ever have their WRE die for no good reason?  I keep getting "[notice] SIGTERM received" and Apache dies.
05:57 <+perlDreamer> that could be Apache::SizeLimit kicking in
05:57 < SDuensin> Oh?
05:58 < SDuensin> Teach me, Obi Wan.
05:58 <@vayde> He's more of a Qui-Gon
05:58 < SDuensin> hehe
05:58 <+perlDreamer> Apache::SizeLimit is used to prevent your apache kids from leaking memory
05:58 <+perlDreamer> when they get too big, then they get reaped
05:58 < SDuensin> Yea, but *all* of them?
05:59 < SDuensin> Where is that setting?
05:59 <+perlDreamer> I don't use the WRE, but it would be in httpd.conf
05:59 < SDuensin> k
05:59 <+perlDreamer> it should only kill one of them, AFAIK
06:00 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: Apache::SizeLimit?
06:00 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: help
06:00 < perlbot> (fact) : tell (who) about (what) : (what) > (who) : learn (what) as (info) : relearn (fact) as (info) : phone (phone #) : shorten (url) : shorten it : search (keyword) : cpan (module) : docs (module) : perldoc -f (function) : jargon (term) : math (expr): fortune : flip : host (type) (record) : rot13 (text) : roll (die) : tempconv (temp) : scramble (foo) : 8ball (question) : slap (who) : diss (who) : top/bottom (number) karma : geoip (ip)
06:00 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: cpan Apache::SizeLimit
06:00 < perlbot> Documentation for 'Apache::SizeLimit' can be found here: http://xrl.us/vri2
06:00 <+perlDreamer> there you go, SDuensin
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06:01 < SDuensin> Thanks.
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06:05 <@vayde> Halleleuja!  I have a mouse that does what I ask it to do again!
06:05 <+perlDreamer> I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be super easy to install?
06:05 <+perlDreamer> I was going to recommend it to my brother-in-law
06:05 <+perlDreamer> He's an exterminator
06:05 <@vayde> It is.  I just had to load in my super cool ultra funky mouse settings
06:06 <@vayde> Now my trackpad responds with the reflexes of a ninja
06:06 <+perlDreamer> I see
06:06 <@vayde> Whaaa!
06:06 <+perlDreamer> You sound like you tried to use setRank to really set a rank
06:07 <+perlDreamer> and found out otherwise
06:07 <@vayde> 1440 pixels to the right in just a flick of the thumb
06:13 < SDuensin> My site still kills the server.  :-/
06:14 < SDuensin> When it dies, I see this in PS:
06:14 < SDuensin>  /bin/bash /data/wre/sbin/rc.webgui restartweb
06:15 <+perlDreamer> does it happen at the same time each day/week?
06:16 <+perlDreamer> it looks like some script is doing it
06:16 <+perlDreamer> like log rotation
06:16 <+perlDreamer> check your cron logs
06:20 < SDuensin> No, it happens when I hit the site.
06:20 <+perlDreamer> every time you hit the site?
06:21 < SDuensin> Log rotation kills the server?
06:21 <+perlDreamer> it has to
06:21 <+perlDreamer> the server holds an file descriptor to the log file
06:21 <+perlDreamer> when it gets rotated, the server will write to a high offset instead of starting over at the beginning
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06:22 <+perlDreamer> is there anything interesting in your other logfiles?
06:22 <+perlDreamer> /var/log/messages
06:22 <+perlDreamer> and whereever the WRE keeps the apache logs?
06:22 < SDuensin> Nope.
06:23 <+perlDreamer> weird
06:23 <+perlDreamer> which OS?
06:23 < SDuensin> My cron entries for WRE look like on the wiki.
06:23 < SDuensin> Centos4
06:23 <+perlDreamer> you can't do better than that
06:24 < SDuensin> Can't do other than that either.  :-)
06:24 < SDuensin> That's what my host uses.
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06:29 <+perlDreamer> man
06:29 <+perlDreamer> I seem to be accumulating karma at an exponentially increasing rate
06:30 <+perlDreamer> I wonder if there's a karma bug?
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06:31 <+perlDreamer> Those fly moves must be messing with your connection, preaction
06:31 < Hinrik> his connection craps out on him every time a fly moves?
06:32 <+perlDreamer> He's playing DDR
06:32 <+perlDreamer> Any big jump or stamp probably wiggles some loose wire and then his connection gets dropped.
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--- Day changed Mon Apr 16 2007
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15:47 < SDuensin> Good morning.
16:07 < ckotil> hello
16:07 < pjesi> hi
16:15  * SDuensin caught SIGTERM
16:15 < SDuensin> Bane of my existence.
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16:42 < bopbop> good morning
16:47 < SDuensin> Hey bopbop 
16:47 < bopbop> howdy
16:47 < AMH_bob> Good morning.
16:48 < SDuensin> Afternoon, AMH_bob.  :-)
16:51 < AMH_bob> It's beautiful weather outside, nice and warm. But when I see your name I immediately crave for a hot cup of coffee
16:51 < AMH_bob> Have you had your?
16:52 < SDuensin> hehehe
16:52 < SDuensin> Got it with me now.  :-)
16:53 < AMH_bob> Just got mine too! :-P
16:53 < AMH_bob> Have a nice day at work!
16:55 < SDuensin> Wheeee
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21:17 < cap10morgan> Is there such a thing as regional WebGUI user groups?
21:17 < cap10morgan> I'd love to try and start a Denver, CO, USA one... :)
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23:07 <+perlDreamer> preaction: you better op Haaarg so that he can boot people when they get unruly
23:15 < pjesi> what is unruly?
23:16 < Hinrik> you are
23:17 < xdanger> uu, tinymce works with the webkit nightly builds, and they seem to be stable too ;)
23:22 <+perlDreamer> you know, unruly
23:23 <+perlDreamer> Saying that WebGUI sucks, pestering people. being argumentative
23:23 <+perlDreamer> stuff like that
23:23 < pjesi> sounds like someone just arrived from 4chan
23:23 < pjesi> :)
23:23 < Hinrik> 4chan hates webgui?
23:24 < pjesi> srsly?
23:24 < pjesi> no Im just kidding
23:24 < Hinrik> I see
23:24 < pjesi> unruly just reminds me of 4chan
23:24 < Hinrik> hehe
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23:48  * vayde is being unruly, but his ninja skills prevent anyone from noticing
23:59 <+perlDreamer> who said that?
--- Day changed Tue Apr 17 2007
00:12 <+perlDreamer> bummer about the Content manager's guide
00:12 <+perlDreamer> I hope y'all get the issues resolved quickly
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00:42 <@vayde> Ahh So!  I am no longer the FNG
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01:09 < cap10morgan> We just deployed our first wG7 site!!
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01:10 < cap10morgan> Let the new era begin!
01:10  * cap10morgan breaks a bottle of champagne across WebGUI 7's bow
01:11 <@preaction> woot!
01:58 < cap10morgan> using the config api, how do you add to an array that's in a hash?
01:58 < cap10morgan> (specifically the "None" array in the "workflowActivities" hash)
02:07 <+perlDreamer> would a paste of the original WebGUI.conf file help with that?
02:07 <+perlDreamer> actually, you should have a copy of that in WebGUI.conf.original
02:13 < cap10morgan> only if it shows how to do this w/ the API
02:15 <+perlDreamer> oh, you mean like via $session->config?
02:15 < cap10morgan> yes, exactly
02:15 <+perlDreamer> at that point, it's just perl data structures
02:16 <+perlDreamer> put a new key onto the hash, make the value an array ref
02:16 <+perlDreamer> there are examples in t/Session/Config.t
02:16 < cap10morgan> ok, cool, thanks
02:18 <+perlDreamer> one thing to keep in mind is that the API will overwrite your config file, so you may want to keep a backup of the original, just in case.
02:19 < cap10morgan> yep
02:21 < cap10morgan> ah, it didn't like that i was using the same array ref that i just got from the config object
02:21 < cap10morgan> a little copy to a local array, and voila
02:21 < cap10morgan> :)
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04:19 <+Radix-wrk> Morning all
04:37 < SDuensin> Hi Radix-wrk 
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05:54 < PedersenMJ> g'd evening :)
05:56 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #07:04  * perlDreamer rejoices at the return of snapcount's crickets
07:05 <+perlDreamer> the trout get hungry after all that fighting
07:07  * PedersenMJ wonders if it's against the law to slap with halibut?
07:07 <+perlDreamer> too flaky
07:07 <+perlDreamer> you need a good, firm fish
07:09 < PedersenMJ> Well, when the halibut is whole, it's definitely a firm fish.
07:10 < PedersenMJ> Tuna would be too big, definitely. So they're right out.
07:10 <+perlDreamer> in that case, halibut is okay by me
07:10 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: help
07:10 < perlbot> (fact) : tell (who) about (what) : (what) > (who) : learn (what) as (info) : relearn (fact) as (info) : phone (phone #) : shorten (url) : shorten it : search (keyword) : cpan (module) : docs (module) : perldoc -f (function) : jargon (term) : math (expr): fortune : flip : host (type) (record) : rot13 (text) : roll (die) : tempconv (temp) : scramble (foo) : 8ball (question) : slap (who) : diss (who) : top/bottom (number) karma : geoip (ip)
07:10 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: math 252/6
07:10 < perlbot> 42
07:13 <+perlDreamer> perlbot help slap
07:13 <+perlDreamer> perlbog: help slap
07:17 <+perlDreamer> stupid broken WebGUI ORM!
07:19 <+perlDreamer> the API won't let me create a deep asset, so I have to force it through the DB
07:20 <+perlDreamer> but then the object isn't updated, and that's what's used by addChild
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07:39 <@preaction> perlDreamer: wait, what?
07:40 <+perlDreamer> recently I've been testing AssetLineage, from the API
07:40 <+perlDreamer> I need to cover the condition in addChild where if you try to create an Asset that's more than 42 levels deep, it creates a sibling instead
07:40 <+perlDreamer> but the API won't let you shove an arbitrary lineage into an Asset
07:40 <+perlDreamer> so I crowbar'ed it via the database
07:41 <+perlDreamer> that doesn't update the object, and the object is what is used to instantiate the child
07:41 <@preaction> you can't test by creating 42 levels yourself?
07:41 <+perlDreamer> you could...
07:41 <+perlDreamer> but I'm practicing virtue #1 this week
07:42 <@preaction> ?
07:42 <+perlDreamer> laziness
07:42 <+perlDreamer> impatience
07:42 <+perlDreamer> hubris
07:42 <+perlDreamer> the 3 perl virtues
07:42 <@preaction> for (1..41) { $lineage[$_-1]->addChild($properties); } # <-- tee hee
07:43 <@preaction> er... $lineage[$_] = $lineage[$_-1]->addChild
07:43 <+perlDreamer> that's true, I hadn't thought about looping
07:43 <+perlDreamer> in any case, wG's ORM is lacking
07:43 <@preaction> ORM?
07:43 <+perlDreamer> Object Relational Mapping
07:44 <+perlDreamer> it would be nice if it made sure that the object was updated with the latest db values before doing stuff
07:44 <+perlDreamer> kind of like a smart get
07:45 <@preaction> so you get a stale cache?
07:45 <+perlDreamer> stale object, yes.
07:45 <+perlDreamer> but I'm breaking encapsulation with my original approach in any case
07:46 <+perlDreamer> here's more about the virtues
07:46 <+perlDreamer> http://www.netropolis.org/hash/perl/virtue.html
07:47 <+perlDreamer> I'll rewrite the test to use your approach
07:47 <+perlDreamer> It's much cleaner
07:47 <+perlDreamer> especially if you prime $lineage[0]
07:48 <@preaction> perlbot virtues
07:48 < perlbot> Laziness, Impatience, Hubris, Diligence, Patience and Humility
07:48 <@preaction> didn't know which ones you were referring to
07:48 <+perlDreamer> those last three are new
07:49 <@preaction> they're the polar opposites of the first three
07:49 <@preaction> perlbot diligence
07:49 < perlbot> The opposite of laziness.
07:49 <@preaction> perlbot patience
07:49 < perlbot> The opposite of impatience.
07:49 <@preaction> ... but no cool explanation of course
07:49 <@preaction> perlbot hubris
07:49 < perlbot> Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. [Also, the thing that makes you write programs to do something that's already been done, because you believe you 08:38 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
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14:56 < AMH_mari> Hia all,
14:56 < AMH_mari> Hi...
14:57 < AMH_mari> A weird thing is happening: I try to export one (1) page layout, containing one article and the export hangs.
14:57 < AMH_mari> Lots of disk activity on the server and the /var/log/http/error_log lists the following:
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/lvm/) backup: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/lvm/) archive: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/cups/) ssl: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/racoon/) certs: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/) cron.d: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/selinux/targeted/modules/) active: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:57 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/selinux/targeted/modules/) previous: Permission denied
14:57 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:58 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/pki/) CA: Permission denied
14:58 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:58 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./home/) samba: Permission denied
14:58 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 794
14:58 < AMH_mari> I've seen it attempt to access /proc too.
14:58 < AMH_mari> Any thoughts anyone?
15:01 < AMH_mari> The Storage.pm line find(sub { push(@files, $File::Find::name)}, "."); is the culprit...
15:24 <@preaction> that is not good at all
15:25 <@preaction> what does that article contain?
15:41 <@preaction> actually it looks like the bad code is in the chdir, it doesn't check for failure, it doesn't check if it's a valid dir to ch to, and then later we call File::Find on the current working directory (which in this case turned out to be /)
15:41 <@preaction> chdir on mod_perl environments is bad, iirc
15:43 < AMH_mari> Hi preaction; a page layout for a user friendly login page, with an article that contains some text and the ^L() macro call. I'll list its contents, one moment...
15:44 <@preaction> no need, if it's not explicitly linking to those things, i'd consider this a bug. unless something is symlinked there, or could otherwise resolve to there. something weird is going on
15:45 <@preaction> is it the latest WebGUI?
15:45 < AMH_mari> Yes, 7.3.14
15:45 <@preaction> where's apache's DocumentRoot pointing to?
15:46 < AMH_mari>  /data/domains/www.main.vir/public
15:47 <@preaction> try adding a warning, chdir $self->getPath || warn "Could not chdir to '".$self->getPath."': $!";
15:47 < AMH_mari> and apache's is  /var/www/html
15:47 <@preaction> i assume that the files above are relative to root, correct?
15:48 <@preaction> the /etc/pki/ and /home
15:48 <@preaction> wait, the || should be "or" (|| binds too tight to leave out the parens)
15:48 < AMH_mari> Yes
15:49 < AMH_mari> Okay, I must add this in the Storage.pm file at line 794?
15:49 <@preaction> once you add the warning, restart and try again. your apache error log should show you that warning if it fails to chdir
15:49 <@preaction> yes
15:49 <@preaction> no
15:49 < AMH_mari> Okay, i'll do that
15:49 <@preaction> replace line 792 with that
15:49 < AMH_mari> Okay 792
15:50 <@preaction> chdir $self->getPath or warn "Couldn't chdir to '".$self->getPath."': $!";
15:53 < AMH_mari> Yep, done it and ran it again; it now says:
15:53 < AMH_mari>  Could not chdir to '/data/domains/www.main.vir/public/uploads/BI/0H/BI0Hx90TeU2chdfOQ9yRXA': No such file or directory at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 793.
15:53 < AMH_mari> Can't cd to (./etc/lvm/) backup: Permission denied
15:53 < AMH_mari>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Storage.pm line 795
15:53 < AMH_mari> (I commented the original 792 line)
15:53 <@preaction> looks like some storage locations got deleted but the WebGUI::Asset::File that referenced them did not
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15:55 < AMH_mari> Can those storage location(s) also be outside the page I'm trying to export? (I think other folders will not export either)
15:56 <@preaction> part of your style perhaps?
15:56 < AMH_mari> Checking...
16:02 < AMH_mari> mmm; I had a style configured that might be the problem. But now I have reconfigured to style Fail Safe, save and commited, recreated the export package (metadata change), but the problem persists.
16:03 <@preaction> same chdirs? you might need to look up the file that's causing the problem. it could be part of a template, or a link on that page, etc...
16:05 < AMH_mari> Indeed, the same upload directory entry.I'll try to find the file, but we have about 250 templates, which were imported into WebGUI using a Perl script. The script does a commit after every template, but I do remember having seen some upload directory related messages in the log before. I'll investigate further.
16:05 < AMH_mari> Many thanks for your support advice :-)
16:06 <@preaction> np, you should still post a bug and post that piece of code with the warning. let somebody on duty decide truly what to do about it, as that could still chdir to a bad directory if allowed to
16:06 <@preaction> (that piece of code being the altered line 792 i gave you)
16:07 < AMH_mari> I'll do that; bugs should be posting on the Plain Black site in a forum?
16:07 <@preaction> http://plainblack.com/bugs
16:07 < AMH_mari> Okay, thanks.
16:09 < AMH_mari> BTW: is there any protection against this type of lost references? If they somehow occur, e.g. due to memory problems on the server (which I suspect to be the problem with my virtual machine hosted WebGUI server)?
16:10 <@preaction> not that i'm aware of. i'm not sure how a memory issue would cause a file to not be created / deleted unless the server itself crashed
16:11 < AMH_mari> It does appear strange indeed; I'll investigate further and if I find a cause add it to the bug report.
16:13 < AMH_mari> And - if I have time - I'll attempt to write a recovery script that scans the whole WebGUI lineage and does something to assets with lost references :-)
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16:21 < AMH_bob> Good morning!
16:21 < SDuensin> Good morning!
16:21 < AMH_bob> :)
16:21 < SDuensin> :-)
16:21 < SDuensin> Vuja-De!
16:21 < AMH_bob> Nice timing, it's actually my coffee break now!
16:22 < SDuensin> Where are you?  I'm in the St. Louis, MO area in the USA.
16:23 < AMH_bob> We're in The Netherlands - 90 miles south-east of Amsterdam
16:24 < SDuensin> Got McDonald's there?   They have yummy coffee.  :-)
16:25 < AMH_bob> Not nearby, they are all close to the freeway or in major cities; We've got a pretty good cappuccino machine (yummie)
16:25 < SDuensin> :-)
16:26 < AMH_bob> So I'm off to the machine and then finish my last 5 minutes of break outside, later!
16:26 < SDuensin> I got hooked on coffee when I was working on the Air Force base near me.  There was a fancy coffee bar in the building run by some really hot women.  :-)
16:26 < SDuensin> See ya!
16:27 < ckotil> i started drinking coffee not long aog
16:28 < ckotil> it does wonders for waking my ass up
16:29 < SDuensin> I'm still more of a hot tea fan.  But man, McDs has good coffee.  <G>
16:29 < ckotil> ya, its not bad. i just cant be eating McBagels/McGriddles every morning
16:29 < ckotil> i usually opt for a bagel w/ coffee
16:30 < SDuensin> I hear ya.  I love those sausage McMuffins, but I very rarely buy one.  I'd be 500 pounds!
16:31 < SDuensin> (Dang programming!  Sit on my butt all day!)
16:31 < ckotil> indeed
16:31 < ckotil> yarly
16:31 < ckotil> only physical activity i do is move my fingers, and walk to and from the bathroom
16:31 < SDuensin> Dang.  Now that I said that, I want a McMuffin and grease-soaked hashbrowns!
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16:34 < SDuensin> Morning, bopbop 
16:34 < bopbop> Morning! Welcome Haarg.
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16:38 <@Haarg> morning
16:40 < SDuensin> Howdy Haarg 
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17:19 < perlmonkey2> Does webgui hosting offer SSL/TLS pop/smtp?
17:19 < sanyock> Hi Ppl!
17:19 < SDuensin> Hello sanyock 
17:19 <@rizen> if you buy the ssl cert, we'll install it for you for free
17:19 < SDuensin> Morning, rizen & perlmonkey2 
17:19 <@rizen> and yes, it comes with pop3/smtp and webmail
17:20 < perlmonkey2> Good morning Sduensin:
17:20 <@rizen> good morning all
17:20 < perlmonkey2> I have a police force that needs secure web and email and I'm thinking this is a good oppurtunity to push my favorite CMS.
17:20 < sanyock> the latest version is awesome
17:24 <@rizen> oh wait...was i misunderstanding you
17:24 <@rizen> are you asking if we do SSL on pop transactiions?
17:25 < perlmonkey2> well...I'm not really sure how it would work beyond the user connections......The user would use ssl to pop and for smtp connections, but I don't know how the emails are secured (or if it is possible) after the email leaves your server.
17:26 <@rizen> yeah, we don't offer ssl on email connections
17:26 <@rizen> only on web sites
17:26 <@rizen> if you're concerned about email privacy
17:26 <@rizen> you're much better off having them encrypt their messages with pgp keys or something
17:27 <@rizen> cuz then it's good for the life of the email message
17:27 <@rizen> not just the connection to/from the server
17:27 < perlmonkey2> and would easy to set up in Outlook or Thunderbird.  But I doubt it is easy via Webmail.
17:28 <@rizen> yeah, our webmail interface doesn't support that yet
17:28 < sanyock> I locked  a home page but there is no unlock in "more" popup menu, cannot find in forum or doc how to unlock, may be by direct database edit
17:29 <@rizen> you need to either commit your version tag
17:29 <@rizen> or roll it back
17:29 <@rizen> that's how you unlock it
17:30 < perlmonkey2> No offense to police, but they won't be highly technical users and they'll want their email at work and at home.  So setting up secure email for them is probably going to be a pain.....I wish I could just get them to use Gaim-OTR :)
17:30 < sanyock> thanks, it worked
17:33 < perlmonkey2> rizen:  Do you run spamassassin?
17:34 <@rizen> no, we run a carrier grade spam filtering system, similar to the one used by gmail
17:34 < perlmonkey2> woot, even better.
17:37 < perlmonkey2> *knows he's asking too many off-topic questions but just has one more* 
17:37 < perlmonkey2> I don't see anywhere on the site on how to get more than 25 email accounts.  They will need an email account for every employee in the department.
17:37 <@rizen> it's $15 per month for each additional 25 email accounts
17:38 <@rizen> you buy them in blocks of 25
17:38 < perlmonkey2> not too shabby....thanks :)
17:50 < sanyock> it seems that asset order change did not create a new version, is it correct?
17:50 <@rizen> tree operations are not versioned
17:50 < sanyock> do they apply at once?
17:50 <@rizen> yup
17:51 <@rizen> versioning is for content only
17:51 < sanyock> it is first time I am working with versioning system
17:51 <@rizen> if we versioned tree operations we'd have to make a copy of the entire tree every time you moved something, due to the way tree relationships affect the lineage
17:52 < sanyock> Last time I worked with webgui 6.5.6
17:52 <@rizen> ah
17:52 < sanyock> http://kurgan.pfr.ru      runs it
17:52 <@rizen> you'll absolutely hate versioning and workflow until the day that it saves your ass
17:52 <@rizen> =)
17:53 < SDuensin> I already love it and my ass is fine.  :-)
17:53 < sanyock> I already tried to do several things  and then to rollback to the original webgui as it was after install
17:53 < sanyock> looks like transactions in databases running in online backup mode
17:54 < sanyock> it's great feature
17:56 < sanyock> I wonder does exist any CMS which is similar to WebGUI in features and GUI (may be commercial)
17:56 < SDuensin> Not that I've ever found.
17:56 < SDuensin> (And believe me, I looked!)
17:57 < sanyock> I tried many and most of them like nuke or drupal, etc.
17:57  * SDuensin is moving from Drupal and Joomla to WebGUI just as soon as he can find his stupid "Caught SIGTERM" problem.
17:58 <@rizen> typo3 has similar features to webgui
17:58 < sanyock> the only thing I am concerned I will have to learn perl to do some minor customization
17:58 <@rizen> but much harder to use
17:58 < sanyock> typo3 has more complex admin gui
17:59 < SDuensin> Oh yea.  I remember Typo3.  I remember being incredibly confused.
17:59 < sanyock> also I was not able to install ceo friendly url plugin
17:59 <@rizen> oracle portals has similar functionality to webgui
17:59 < sanyock> realurl if remember correct
17:59 < sanyock> and given up
17:59 < SDuensin> Oracle?   Such language!
17:59 <@rizen> well it does
18:00 <@rizen> but the big thing it doesn't have is any sort of automated navigation
18:00 <@rizen> you have to manually build it out of a random assortment objects that you have created in your database
18:03 < SDuensin> Hey rizen (or anyone), I know you have no reason to support my install, but have you ever seen WebGUI's WRE (the RHEL4 one) copy of Apache die with "Caught SIGTERM" when people access the WebGUI site?
18:03 < SDuensin> I cannot find what is causing it!  Driving me nuts!
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18:05 <@rizen> are you running on RHEL4?
18:05 <@rizen> or CentOS4?
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18:05 <@rizen> or something else?
18:05 < SDuensin> CentOS4
18:06 <@rizen> in that case no
18:06 <@rizen> the only time i've seen it happen is when someone tries to force it onto some other os
18:06 <@rizen> like fedora core
18:07 < sanyock> What I think about is in any area the is a best thing for some person, in CMS I think it is webgui for me, may be someone does his favorites for different areas of life and work. So if some persons share their habbits they may like favorites of each others, it would be easier to find best thing in any area having several such similar favorites list :)
18:07 < sanyock> Sad that it takes time to find this best thing
18:08 < sanyock> May there is such a project in the net
18:08 < sanyock> for example best database engine, best cpu manufacture, best PDA for the same person
18:09 < sanyock> it would save a lot of time if someone could find his clone :)
18:09 < SDuensin> "uname -a" doesn't actually say "CentOS" in it anywhere.  How can I be 100% sure?  (I was told it was CentOS4.)
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18:20 < sanyock> cat /etc/*version* /etc/*distr* /etc/*releas*
18:22 < SDuensin> Thank you.  CentOS release 4.4 (Final)
18:22 < SDuensin> Maybe I'll abuse the host and try and compile my own.  :-)
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18:41 < SDuensin> Can anyone here reach SourceForge?
18:46 < sanyock> no, and does not ping
18:47 < SDuensin> Ouch.
18:47 < SDuensin> That is NOT good.
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> it's down in europe too
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> at least in delft
18:48 < SDuensin> Damn.
18:48 < SDuensin> Someone forgot to pay the bill.
18:48 < SDuensin> Is there an alternate site to download the WRE source from?
18:48 < sanyock> I wonder how webgui knows that "Newer Coolmenu" is a navigation template and then displays it in navigation type drop down
18:49 < sanyock> I have webgui-7.3.14-stable.tar.gz  if needed
18:49 < SDuensin> Thanks, but I need the WRE source, not WebGUI.
18:49 <+MrHairgrease> sduensin, i think the wre is available only on sf\
18:50 < SDuensin> I was afraid of that, MrHairgrease.  I'm in the same boat with code and docs I'm working on.
18:51 < sanyock> ups, plainblack hosts source themselves 
18:55 < sanyock> so more common quesiton is how webgui knows that a template is of some type
18:56 < sanyock> the "type" field of template seems always is HTML::Template
18:56 <+MrHairgrease> under the metadata tab
18:56 < sanyock> but WebGUI somehow distinguishes them
18:56 <+MrHairgrease> there is the namespace
18:57 <+MrHairgrease> the namespace makes the distinction
18:57 <+MrHairgrease> if you create a new template you must select the correct namespace (which is then under the properties tab)
18:57 <+MrHairgrease> The type field specifies which backend templating engine this template uses
18:58 <+MrHairgrease> the default templates all use HTML::Template
18:59 < sanyock> so it is readonly and unchangable
18:59 <+MrHairgrease> once a namespace has been assigned it is unchangeable
19:00 <+MrHairgrease> which makes sence
19:00 < sanyock> only selectable when created
19:00 <+MrHairgrease> yes
19:00 < sanyock> Thank you for explanation
19:00 <+MrHairgrease> ok
19:00 <+MrHairgrease> np
19:00 < SDuensin> Is there a reason for that, or is it just to make me create new assets when I screw up?  :-)
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> it makes no sense to change the namespace
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> eg.
19:01 < SDuensin> It does if you screw it up.  :-P
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> a NAvigation template has no use at all as a style template
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> wel
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> you shouldn't screw up =)
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> in that case you can fix it directly in the db
19:02 <+MrHairgrease> but you dont want that
19:02 <+MrHairgrease> or
19:02 < SDuensin> Food time!   Be back in a bit.
19:02 <+MrHairgrease> you create a new one and copy paste the template contents
19:02 <+MrHairgrease> ok
19:18 < sanyock> It seems I cannot create a new template, only duplicate existing (or may be copy/paste)
19:20 < sanyock> And assets admin layout looks broken when "New Content"\"Template" clicked
19:20 < sanyock> v 7.3.14
19:23 <+MrHairgrease> on demo.plainblack.com this works
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19:24 < wgGuest47> How can I add "prev page" and "next page" into webgui pages?
19:24 < sanyock> And WebGUI displayed that broken interface several times when tried to edit duplictaed and original too until commited, then editor opened only after original was edited
19:25 < sanyock> I refer templates (not pages)
19:25 <+MrHairgrease> please try to reproduce that on demo.plainblack.com and file a bug report
19:25 < sanyock> may be browser
19:25 <+MrHairgrease> oh
19:25 < sanyock> firefox 1.5.3
19:25 <+MrHairgrease> that should work
19:26 <+MrHairgrease> http://plainblack.com/bugs
19:26 <+MrHairgrease> don't forget to attach a screenshot
19:26 < sanyock> I see, (already reported few before)
19:26 <+MrHairgrease> ok
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19:27 < sanyock> ok
19:27 <+MrHairgrease> gotta go
19:27 <+MrHairgrease> i'm hungry
19:27 <+MrHairgrease> later
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19:41 < wgGuest47> can I add macros from the UI / witout access to filestructure directly with FTP?
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19:58 < sanyock> bye bye
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20:26 < SDuensin> Oh man am I borderline painfully full.  :-)
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21:17 < cap10morgan> Our search systems seems to be picking up old revisions and deleted assets. How do you turn that off?
21:20 < cap10morgan> this is in 7.3.14
21:26 < cap10morgan> is it supposed to do that by default?
21:26  * SDuensin has no idea
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21:45 < cap10morgan> also, the modperl server in the WRE is refusing some connections, even though i've upped the maxclients to 1024 (and we're nowhere near that limit)
21:45 < cap10morgan> what other limits are there in there that i need to increase on a production site?
21:46 < SDuensin> Wish I knew.  So far, all I can do is crash the modperl server.
21:46  * SDuensin is compiling one from source right now.
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22:05 < cap10morgan> bah, the modperl server just randomly returns blank pages sometimes (pretty often)
22:10 < cap10morgan> ok, yeah, my modperl server is acting very weird
22:10 < cap10morgan> it restarts every few seconds
22:12 < cap10morgan> ah, i think my wremonitor was going haywire
22:14 < SDuensin> Look in your log.  Mine kept saying "[notice] Caught SIGTERM".
22:33 < cap10morgan> it was the wremonitor on mine
22:34 < cap10morgan> i don't use the modproxy server in the wre, so that was freaking it out
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22:35 < SDuensin> Hmmm.  I'll have to look into that.  Mine dies when someone accesses the site.
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22:36 < cap10morgan> SDuensin: Have you tried attaching gdb to the process?
22:37 < SDuensin> I'm not that versed in gdb.
22:39 < cap10morgan> I'm not either :)
22:39 < cap10morgan> but i know you can attach it to a running process and then if it crashes, type "bt" to get a backtrace
22:39 < cap10morgan> these can be kinda cryptic unless the running binary had debugging symbols in it
22:39 < cap10morgan> but sometimes they can point you in the right direction
22:40 < cap10morgan> you could also try getting strace to launch the process
22:40 < cap10morgan> and watch that
22:42 < SDuensin> I'm currently building the WRE from source *on* the box it'll run from.
22:43 < cap10morgan> gotcha
22:44 < SDuensin> If there's some kind of library weirdness, that should fix it.
22:44 < cap10morgan> yeah
22:45 < cap10morgan> what kind of box is it?
22:45 < cap10morgan> linux?
22:45 < SDuensin> Yea.  CentOS4.
22:45 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
22:45 < cap10morgan> and then standard rhel4 wre is having problems on there?
22:46 < cap10morgan> i've run that wre on centos4 just fine...
22:50 < SDuensin> It blows up.  :-(
22:50 < SDuensin> Now, that's not saying I don't have something else screwed up.  :-)
22:54 < SDuensin> Weird.  When compiling the WRE, it blew up trying to build Net::LDAP.  When I did it by hand using cpan, it worked fine.
22:55 < SDuensin> Build seems to be continuing now.
22:59 < SDuensin> Can't wait until my ISP gets my CPU usage for the day.  :-)
23:08 < SDuensin> Whoo hoo!  It built!
23:11 < SDuensin> Now to reinstall all my sites and see what happens.
23:14 < cap10morgan> good luck!
23:15 < SDuensin> Thanks.  :-)
23:15 < SDuensin> Made a tarball of the binaries before I screw 'em up.
23:15 < SDuensin> Wow.  73 meg of source made 74 meg of binaries.  Almost 1:1!
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23:40 <+perlDreamer> hey, all!
23:40  * vayde chucks a fish in PD's direction, just to be friendly
23:41 <+perlDreamer> aw, shucks
23:41 < SDuensin> Hey perlDreamer 
23:41 <+perlDreamer> Hey!
23:41 <@rizen> methinks that fishchucking shall be banned going forward
23:41 <+perlDreamer> It's been a busy day at $dayJob.  Have I missed much?
23:42 < SDuensin> Just me $bitching.
23:42 < SDuensin> :-)
23:42  * SDuensin compiled his own WRE to break later tonight.
23:43 <+perlDreamer> which platform?
23:43 < SDuensin> CentOS4
23:44 < SDuensin> The RHEL4 modperl server keeps blowing up on me.
23:44 < SDuensin> Well, blowing up may not be accurate.  It keeps catching a SIGTERM from somewhere when people access the site.
23:45 <+perlDreamer> you should post that as a bug
23:45 <+perlDreamer> A lot of people use that WRE binary
23:45 <+perlDreamer> like PlainBlack
23:45 <+perlDreamer> but they run it on RHEL4, of course
23:45 < SDuensin> I don't even know what it is!  Might be my fault.
23:45 < SDuensin> "Scott can't make it work." isn't really a bug.  :-)
23:47 <+perlDreamer> if you knew what it was, it wouldn't be a bug.
23:48 < SDuensin> Sure it would!  I know all kinds of bugs in my code.  They're just "pending" fixes!
23:56 < SDuensin> Time to head home.  Later!
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--- Day changed Wed Apr 18 2007
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01:26 <+perlDreamer> greetings, Sensei
01:27 <@vayde> Howdy
01:27  * vayde bows
01:27 <+perlDreamer> perlDreamer bows back
01:27 <+perlDreamer> what technique are we learning tonight?
01:27 <@vayde> How ya doing PD?
01:27 <+perlDreamer> things on the west coast are good
01:27 <+perlDreamer> simulating verilog and kicking butt
01:28 <+perlDreamer> much to the detriment of the wG community
01:29 <+perlDreamer> btw, so you know
01:29 <@vayde> That's cool.  I'm trying to kick butt, while finding a new place for us to kick butt, and at the same time trying to prevent rizen from kicking my butt.
01:30  * vayde is all ears (under the hair)
01:30 <+perlDreamer> don't use the getFirstChild and getLastChild methods with disableCache enabled in the config file
01:30 <+perlDreamer> they'll crash the server
01:30 <+perlDreamer> I should have a fix for it later tomorrow
01:30 <+perlDreamer> good news is that those methods are not used anywhere in WebGUI that I've found
01:30 <+perlDreamer> Why do you need a new place to kick butt?  Larger studio?
01:31 <@vayde> Cheaper hopefully
01:31 <@vayde> Larger is nice, but I'm sick of paying for it
01:31 <@vayde> $3k per month just for rent
01:31 <+perlDreamer> wow
01:31 <+perlDreamer> that's a lot of monster time
01:31 <@vayde> Yeah, we're forced into retail space by local ordinance
01:31 <@vayde> Luckily I've found some cities nearby who are willing to play ball
01:33 <@vayde> brb.  gotta check an xserver setting
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01:57 <@rizen> how ya been pd
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02:07 <+perlDreamer> hacking chips and writing wG tests
02:07 <+perlDreamer> how about you, rizen?
02:08 <@rizen> pulling lots of all nighters to keep up with what's going on at pb
02:08 <@rizen> have you met Haarg (aka Graham) yet?
02:08 <+perlDreamer> be careful dude, otherwise you'll end up taking a big vacation like frank
02:08 <+perlDreamer> a little last night
02:09 <+perlDreamer> Seems like a nice guy
02:09 <+perlDreamer> Good answers on the boards
02:09 <@rizen> i hired him as an LTE to help us get caught up on bug fixing and writing tests
02:09 <+perlDreamer> cool.
02:09 <+perlDreamer> My brains are at his service
02:09 <@rizen> and to help me with support
02:09 <@rizen> that's awesome man..thanks
02:09 <+perlDreamer> I see he's logged on now, is Haarg actually here?
02:10 <@vayde> rizen, PD has been a big help to me too.  If you weren't aware of that, you should be
02:10 <@rizen> he's showing away on my screen
02:10 <@rizen> i am vayde, but thanks for saying so
02:10 <+perlDreamer> 'cause I'd like to talk about some bugs I've found.
02:10 <+perlDreamer> would it be better to do it on the dev list?
02:12 <@rizen> you can talk here if you want me to talk with you, but better do it on the dev list if you want to talk with Haarg
02:12 <@rizen> he's not here now
02:12 <+perlDreamer> eh, let's hash it out now
02:12 <+perlDreamer> he can always read the IRC logs
02:13 <+perlDreamer> inside AssetLineage, getFirstChild and getLastChild
02:13 <+perlDreamer> both are broken if disableCache is enabled
02:13 <+perlDreamer> and only one of them actually checks disableCache, even though it does it too late to stop a bad deref
02:13 <+perlDreamer> the methods aren't used anywhere in the core
02:14 <+perlDreamer> should they be fixed or scrapped?
02:15 <@rizen> damn
02:15 <@rizen> i just got an invoice from hawaii
02:15 <@rizen> i thought it was for on site training
02:15 <@rizen> turns out it's for online training
02:16 <@rizen> s/invoice/purchase order/
02:16 <@rizen> i thought someone at pb was going to hawaii
02:16 <@rizen> no such luck
02:16 <@rizen> =)
02:16 <@vayde> damn, I tried
02:16 <@rizen> ok...back to your questions
02:16 <@rizen> we can't scrap them
02:16 <@rizen> who knows if someone is using them or not
02:16 <@rizen> but my api promise ensures that they must be there
02:16 <@rizen> so therefore they must be fixed
02:16 <+perlDreamer> I'll fix them
02:17 <@rizen> k
02:17 <+perlDreamer> the other question I asked on the dev list
02:17 <+perlDreamer> more paranoia about clashing
02:17 <@rizen> i saw it
02:17 <+perlDreamer> It's nuts, right?
02:17 <@rizen> but i've been soo busy i haven't had time to respond
02:17 <@rizen> cuz it's a long thought process
02:18 <@rizen> you had to put a formula into it
02:18 <@rizen> and me not so good at the math numbers
02:18 <@rizen> so, could you explain this
02:18 <@rizen> The odds are much higher than 1 in a million (38**6 : N, where N is the number of siblings), but they could be 0 if any character in the temporary lineage is set to a non-digit character.
02:19 <@rizen> what does ** mean
02:19 <@rizen> is that the same as ^
02:19 <@rizen> as in 38 to the power of 6
02:19 <+perlDreamer> exponentation
02:19 <+perlDreamer> yup
02:20 <@rizen> and i always thought that : meant "therefore" in math
02:20 <@rizen> but apparently it means something else
02:20 <@rizen> oh wait
02:20 <@rizen> you're using it like a ratio
02:20 <+perlDreamer> right, I'm quoting odds
02:20 <@rizen> there's a 1 in 1000000 chance
02:20 <@rizen> that sort of thing
02:20 <+perlDreamer> right
02:20 <@rizen> ok...sorry
02:21 <@rizen> told you my brain doesn't like math
02:21 <+perlDreamer> I'll believe you next time ;)
02:21 <+perlDreamer> so the odds are very, very low
02:21 <+perlDreamer> but they could be 0
02:21 <@rizen> so then explain how the odds could be 0
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02:21 <+perlDreamer> oh, the temporary lineage should have a character in it
02:21 <+perlDreamer> like 'F'
02:21 <+perlDreamer> since real lineage only have numbers, they'll never clash
02:22 <@rizen> that actually doesn't make it 0
02:22 <@rizen> it just lowers the odds even further
02:22 <+perlDreamer> you think there's still a chance of collision?
02:23 <@rizen> under 2 circumstances, yes
02:24 <@rizen> if you have a crash or some other error
02:24 <@rizen> where the temporary lineage never gets cleaned up
02:24 <@rizen> though that's rare
02:24 <@rizen> and if you have that problem, you'll have other problems
02:24 <@rizen> and the more common
02:24 <@rizen> 2 people editing at the same level at the same time
02:24 <@rizen> if both are using the letter F
02:25 <@rizen> then there's still a chance of collision
02:25 <@rizen> not with the existing lineage
02:25 <@rizen> but rather with each other
02:25 <+perlDreamer> if the lineages are used inside of transactions, does that still hold true?
02:25 <@rizen> in our case it doesn't matter
02:25 <+perlDreamer> I'm getting called out of my cube, I'll be back later
02:25 <@rizen> because webgui uses myisam tables
02:25 <+perlDreamer> accursed $dayJob
02:25 <@rizen> not innodb
02:25 <@rizen> ok
02:43 < cap10morgan> Is the search system in v7 supposed to return old revisions and deleted assets?
02:44 <@rizen> no
02:45 < cap10morgan> hmm, it seems to be on one of our sites
02:46 <@rizen> before you submit it as a bug, you need to do 2 things
02:46 <@rizen> 1) be on the latest 7.3 version
02:46 < cap10morgan> check
02:47 <@rizen> 2) reindex your site using the command line search.pl script, and then wait to see if it continues to happen
02:47 <@rizen> the reason for number 2 is to make sure that it wasn't some old bug that you're being hit with
02:47 <@rizen> but in fact that it's a new problem
02:47 < cap10morgan> did that too
02:48 <@rizen> and does it happen on all your sites, or just one?
02:48 <@rizen> your comment made it sound like just one
02:48 < cap10morgan> we only have one launched in v7 so far, but i can check some other dev sites
02:48 <@rizen> fair enough
02:48 <@rizen> feel free to report it as a bug
02:49 <@rizen> though, i haven't noticed this being a problem on other sites so far, so i can't rule out a config problem
02:51 < cap10morgan> yeah, it might be content people not cleaning up after themselves too
02:51 < cap10morgan> i'll keep digging a little
02:51 < cap10morgan> it looks like it's returning old titles for existing assets, but i'll investigate further
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04:58 < PedersenMJ> good evening
05:00 < PedersenMJ> Wow... Just read the past couple of announcements on pb. Those can't feel at all good.
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05:02 < PedersenMJ> heya pd. How goes?
05:16 <+Radix-wrk> morning PedersenMJ  and perlDreamer :)
05:17 < PedersenMJ> Heya Radix-wrk 
05:18 <+Radix-wrk> and yeah, old Visitor can vote/rate/pick his nose freely bug has risen again.  I kinda wish that it wasn't set up that way by default, as we keep running into this one.
05:19 <+Radix-wrk> I doubt it was anyone being nasty either really.. more than likely just web crawlers doing it.
05:20 < PedersenMJ> Well, the way the announcement was phrased certainly made it seem like it was already checked/verified that someone was being a jerk.
05:20 <+Radix-wrk> yup, but if visitor can vote then you're asking for trouble
05:21 <+Radix-wrk> each visitor can only vote one session, so it'd need to be someone who is continually grabbing new sessions and voting
05:22 <@rizen> it was visitor
05:22 < PedersenMJ> Not that hard: while `true` ; do wget http://www.plainblack.com/right/url/for/voting ; sleep 3600 ; done
05:22 <@rizen> sorry, it was checked
05:22 <+Radix-wrk> was all from one ip or something?
05:22 <@rizen> a certain individual went kept connecting and reconnecting to his isp
05:22 <@rizen> to get a different ip address each time
05:22 <@rizen> and voted over and over
05:23 < PedersenMJ> That's sucky behavior to the extreme. For what? $250? Big deal.
05:23 <+Radix-wrk> and this certain individual also put in a submission?
05:23 <@rizen> there were 6 votes from the same isp for the same submission in 1 day
05:23 <@rizen> no
05:23 <@rizen> it appears to be a friend or colleague of the submitter
05:23 <+Radix-wrk> I see
05:23 < PedersenMJ> He didn't even put one in, and did that? Man, what crap.
05:24 <+Radix-wrk> You'll probably get people making fake accounts and voting next
05:24 <@rizen> if they're willing to go that far
05:24 <@rizen> i won't stop em
05:24 <+Radix-wrk> unfortunately the internet is like that :(
05:25  * Radix-wrk makes a dozen accounts and votes for himself.
05:25 <+Radix-wrk> sif :)
05:25  * PedersenMJ scripts it, makes a couple hundred accounts, and then votes at random :)
05:26 <+Radix-wrk> Some people will do crazy things for money tho I guess
05:27 <+Radix-wrk> So on a different note, what happened with the content managers guide?
05:27  * PedersenMJ was just about to ask about that.
05:30 <@rizen> we sent the prepress files into the publisher
05:30 <@rizen> but there was s problem with some embedded fonts
05:30 <@rizen> so the resulting printed book had a bunch of unreadable text in it
05:30 <@rizen> so we're correcting the problem
05:30 <@rizen> which unfortunately is a tedious process
05:30 < PedersenMJ> Ouch. Wishing I could help fix it.
05:30 <@rizen> and then we'll resend the book
05:31 <+Radix-wrk> Fair enough
05:31 <+Radix-wrk> What does lulu use for printing generally?
05:31 <+Radix-wrk> pdf?
05:31 <@rizen> yup
05:32 <@rizen> and it turns out that all pdf's are not created equal
05:32 <@rizen> which is news to me
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05:33 <+Radix-wrk> all pdf's are equal if you use adobe acrobat to create it I guess, otherwise you're screwed.
05:33 <+Radix-wrk> I've seen some wacky results with other apps that generate pdf's for our own manuals.
05:33 < PedersenMJ> No, Radix, that's not entirely true.
05:34 < PedersenMJ> Our advertising Dept uses Adobe Acrobat to generate PDF's. And every time we switch printers, we have to get a new batch of settings, and get Acrobat configured with those settings.
05:35 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and by printers, I mean companies which print newspapers, not new laserjets/inkjets/etc.
05:35 <+Radix-wrk> yeah, there's heaps of settings just within acrobat itself which can cause all sorts of dramas
05:35 <@rizen> we all use macs here
05:36 <+Radix-wrk> Oh well.. good luck getting it sorted anyway
05:36 <@rizen> and macs have pdf support built in
05:36 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. PDF for people to receive PDFs are pretty much all equal. Printing... Bleah.
05:36 <@rizen> but mac's pdf capability (quartz) it turns out is a pretty horrible implementation for prepress quality stuff
05:36 < PedersenMJ> Our advertising dept uses all Macs as well. OSX 10.3.9, to be precise.
05:36 <@rizen> we were using Apple Pages to design the books
05:37 <@rizen> which uses quartz to generate pdfs
05:37 <@rizen> and now we have to reformat the entire book in Open Office
05:37 <@rizen> and export as PDF
05:37 < PedersenMJ> Ouch... Ouch ouch ouch.
05:37 <+Radix-wrk> oh what fun ;)
05:37 < PedersenMJ> I like OpenOffice.org, make no mistake. But on the Mac, that just hurts.
05:37 <@rizen> because open office uses it's own pdf generator
05:37 <@rizen> yeah, it's slow and crappy on the mac
05:38 <@rizen> we don't have another choice
05:38 < PedersenMJ> That and the X11 interface is a very jarring experience.
05:38 <@rizen> adobe doesn't sell acrobat distiller for mac anymore
05:38 <@rizen> well...unless you're willing to buy volume liceneses
05:38 <@rizen> from them
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05:38 < PedersenMJ> What? That's ridiculous!
05:39 <@rizen> they will if you buy the new CS3 professional creative suite something or other
05:39 <@rizen> that coasts $1500
05:39 <@rizen> and isn't available yet
05:40 <@rizen> anyway...i just decided, fuck it, we're going back to open office for the books
05:40 <@rizen> at least i know that works
05:40 <@rizen> cuz we did the primer using open office
05:40 < PedersenMJ> I don't blame you, not in the least.
05:41 <+Radix-wrk> you can't get adobe acrobat for macintosh?
05:43 < PedersenMJ> https://store1.adobe.com/cfusion/store/index.cfm?store=OLS-US&view=ols_prod&category=/Applications/AcrobatPro&distributionMethod=FULL&nr=0
05:44 <@rizen> interesting
05:44 <@rizen> i was all over their damn site today
05:44 <@rizen> and couldn't find that
05:44 <@rizen> all i could find was that you get it if you buy cs3
05:44 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, they didn't make it very obvious, they really didn't.
05:45 <@rizen> even so, it costs $500 just to be able to create pdfs
05:45 <@rizen> we have to sell a lot of books to recoup $500
05:45 <+Radix-wrk> there's a standard version too
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. To me, that's rather a ripoff.
05:45 <+Radix-wrk> standard is US$499
05:45 <+Radix-wrk> standard is US$299 rather
05:46 < PedersenMJ> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobatpro/acrobatstd.html
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Didn't see that link at first. Thanks for making me look, Radix :)
05:46 <@rizen> if you go here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobatpro/acrobatstd.html
05:46 <@rizen> yeah
05:46 <@rizen> now look at system requirements
05:46 <+Radix-wrk> Oh.. no.. 
05:46 <@rizen> it says you need windows
05:46 <+Radix-wrk> standard is windows only
05:47 <+Radix-wrk> you need pro to run on a mac.. lol
05:47 <@rizen> and then i found another link somewhere
05:47 <@rizen> that said i could buy standard for mac
05:47 <@rizen> but only if i was buying volume
05:47 < PedersenMJ> Doh! Ya gotta love Adobe. Really. Or get busy planning the firing squad for their executives.
05:47 <+Radix-wrk> are there any ghostscript hacks for the mac like windows at all?
05:47 <@rizen> ho here's where i found it
05:47 <@rizen> Acrobat 8 Elements will be availabe mid-2007. Acrobat Elements 7.0 is currently available through volume licensing with a minimum of 100 seats per order.
05:48 <@rizen> granted that's for elements
05:48 <@rizen> but since i couldn't get standard
05:48 <+Radix-wrk> I mean there are several free pdf creators for windows using ghostscript as the backend
05:48 <@rizen> i thought i'd try that
05:48 <@rizen> i don't have windows
05:48 <@rizen> i'm on a mac
05:48 <+Radix-wrk> surely there's something similar for the mac tho!
05:48 <@rizen> but there isn't 
05:48 <@rizen> because mac natively supports pdf
05:48 <@rizen> or so everyone thinks
05:48 <@rizen> that's what i thought until this week
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Why would there be, Radix? (points to JT, as he's said what I was about to)
05:49 <@rizen> every application has a "save as pdf" option right in the app
05:49 <@rizen> and for most every day purposes
05:49 <@rizen> that works exactly as you'd expect
05:49 <@rizen> it wasn't until i gave the file to lulu.com that i've ever had a problem with it
05:50 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/13334
05:52 <@rizen> that's interesting
05:52 <+Radix-wrk> if you can save the document in postscript format you can use the freeware ps2pdf utility too.. 
05:52 <@rizen> all their documentation says they only support windows
05:53 <@rizen> and also, that binary is only for PPC based macs.
05:53 <@rizen> i'm the only one in the company that has that
05:53 <@rizen> everyone else is intel
05:53 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/
05:53 <@rizen> which i guess would work if i'm the one that's going to publish each new book as it becomes available
05:53 <@rizen> ghostscript won't work
05:54 <@rizen> how do i get apple pages to write out something that ghostscript can use
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Can you get it to write out to postscript?
05:54 <@rizen> granted..on windows you can make ghostscript into a printer
05:54 <@rizen> no
05:54 <@rizen> it only saves as it's format, word (all fucked up), and pdf
05:55 <+Radix-wrk> can you print to a postscript capable laser printer and save as a file?
05:55 <@rizen> look guys, i appreciate your help, but i spent half the day yesterday looking for other options
05:56 <@rizen> and we've already started converting into open office
05:56 <+Radix-wrk> hehe.. k :)
05:56 <@rizen> i absolutely KNOW that will work
05:56 <@rizen> anything else is just speculation
05:57 < PedersenMJ> Gotta try, JT. You wouldn't like us at *all* if we didn't at least *try* :)
05:57 <@rizen> what makes you think i like you now?
05:58 < PedersenMJ> Maybe only a teeny tiny smidgen, and you might not want to admit it, but there's something in the vicinity of "They're not *too* bad" there. Versus "What a bunch of wasted flesh" if we didn't at least *try*.
06:00 <+Radix-wrk> LOL - http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/hprajani/phun/disk.jpg
06:01 < PedersenMJ> I've got one that beats that: I actually had someone ask me where the Tab key was. This was only about 3 years ago, too.
06:02 <+Radix-wrk> what about the Any key?
06:03 < PedersenMJ> He didn't ask about that.
06:04 < PedersenMJ> But he *did* have a complete inability to follow instructions. Including ones that he himself had written down for his benefit (I was training the guy, and he took notes on a rather long and complex process, and was unable to follow the notes he had taken, repeatedly skipping a whole section of steps).
06:06 < PedersenMJ> Oh, this was for a cust svc position. He lasted two weeks before we couldn't take it anymore, and pretty well begged management to fire him (they did, fortunately).
06:12 < PedersenMJ> "Extra Large" and "Pink Camo" are two things that should not be combined in the same sentence unless the term "not", "never" or "Oh please Jesus no don't wear that" is also present.
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06:19 < PedersenMJ> I would have *sworn* I saw perlDreamer join earlier...
06:23 < perlDreame1> netsplit
06:23 < perlDreame1> I forgot to log off at $dayJob
06:24 < perlDreame1> rizen: are you still here?
06:25 <@rizen> nope
06:25 <@rizen> just us chickens
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Ah... Weird. I'm used to my hour long commute, which made it seem odd that you would have been on from work, then from home.
06:25 < perlDreame1> Can we finish up the talk from this afternoon?
06:25 < perlDreame1> Although, I think I see your point
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Quick, nobody count those chickens (unless they've all hatched, of course!)
06:25 <@rizen> sure
06:25 <@rizen> but first
06:25 < perlDreame1> without real transactions, I'm convinced that you're right
06:25 <@rizen> Perersen and Radix
06:25 <@rizen> since you want to help me find stuff
06:26 <@rizen> i need to find a WMV codec for Mac that plays the WMV MSS2 screen recording codec
06:26 <@rizen> Flip4Mac and FileJuicer support every version of WMV except MSS2
06:27 <@rizen> perlDreamer yeah...unless we force innodb on folks
06:27 <@rizen> we can't have transactions
06:27 <@rizen> and i don't think we can force that
06:27 < PedersenMJ> What if I offer to convert to something else from the MSS2?
06:27 <@rizen> for one, that's a fairly big change
06:28 <@rizen> for another, it's slower than myisam
06:28 <@rizen> pedersen, this is something i need to be able to do over and over again
06:28 <@rizen> sending to you is not practical
06:28 < perlDreame1> is there any point in having transactional code in the core, then?
06:28 <@rizen> yes
06:29 < perlDreame1> those two methods explicitly turn on commits before they start working
06:29 <@rizen> i would like to support innodb for those willing to use it
06:29 <@rizen> i did some minor testing when i implemented it back in 6.5 days
06:29 <@rizen> or maybe it was 6.3
06:29 < perlDreame1> okay
06:29 <@rizen> but it hasn't been tested since then
06:29 < perlDreame1> I'll just make tests for, and fix the two methods then
06:30 < perlDreame1> with the exception of getLineage, everything else in AssetLineage is pretty well covered
06:30 < PedersenMJ> JT: Not suggesting the same thing. I have an idea/theory, but need to test before I tell you it will/won't work. Any chance you can point me to a file that is encoded with that codec?
06:31 <@rizen> the file i have was created using the record feature on www.gotowebinar.com
06:31 <@rizen> but it is 500 mb
06:31 <@rizen> so there is no practical way to get it to you
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Lemme find another one online then. There's gotta be a small one I can try with.
06:32 <@rizen> supposedly anything that does screen capture on windows uses MSS2
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Have you tried mplayer yet?
06:35 <@rizen> can you get mplayer on the mac?
06:35 <@rizen> and playback isn't what i need
06:35 <@rizen> i need a codec
06:35 < PedersenMJ> http://www2.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/MPlayerOSX_1.0rc1.dmg
06:35 <@rizen> a plugin for quicktime
06:35 <@rizen> so that i can use it in iMovie and iDVD
06:36 < PedersenMJ> Oh... Herm... That could be more difficult.
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07:20 < cap10morgan> rizen: have you tried NeoOffice? Version 2.1 is pretty nice.
07:20 < cap10morgan> (just reading over the "we're going back to open office" conversation)
07:22 < cap10morgan> you probably already know this, but just in case: it's aqua-fied open office for OS X
07:31 < PedersenMJ> rizen, I've gotta give up. I have yet to find an MSS2 codec for Mac (PPC, Intel). Or Linux. The only notes I saw for mplayer listed it as unsupported.
07:32 < PedersenMJ> Best bet: Use vmware fusion and virtual dub (or virtual pc and virtual dub) to push it into some other format that *is* known under OSX, and use that.
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07:45 < perlDreame1> good night, guys!
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07:49 < PedersenMJ> g'night all
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07:49 <@rizen> everybody poops
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12:16 < AMH_mari> Hi preaction, have filed bugreport as you requested yesterday (http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/webgui-hangs-on-package-export), Greetings, Mari
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15:49 < SDuensin> Good morning!
15:50 < ckotil> Pretty good. as long as you're not at va tech
15:51 < ckotil> some asshat phoned in a bomb threat
15:52 < SDuensin> Again?!
15:52 < SDuensin> That's like three in two weeks.
15:52 < ckotil> really.
15:52 < ckotil> i didnt know that. 
15:53 < SDuensin> Yea, there were (I think) two a few days before the shootings.
15:53 < AMH_bob> Good morning!
15:53 < SDuensin> Hey AMH_bob 
15:54 < AMH_bob> Hey Scatt
15:54 < AMH_bob> eh, Scott
15:54 < Hinrik> they should have a campus bomb squad
15:54 < SDuensin> Problem is, the place is a small city.
15:55 < AMH_bob> VT, wasn't that the school with the selfmade Apple supercomputer
15:55 < AMH_bob> ?
15:55 < SDuensin> I think so.
15:55 < AMH_bob> That was cool - much nicer to hear about than this really bad news
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16:08 < ckotil> Anyone have a good way to notify groups about a pending version tag?
16:08 < ckotil> ..say after 2 days of sitting idle
16:11 < ckotil> im gonna try to write an activity to do this
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17:28 <@rizen> i'm going to be offline all day, have to be vpn'd into a client's network
17:28 <@rizen> later guys
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18:22 < SDuensin> I'm guessing that "[wremonitor] <defunct>" in ps is a Bad Thing (tm)?
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18:30 < SDuensin> Hey MrHairgrease 
18:30 <+MrHairgrease> hi
18:31 < SDuensin> I think I just found the reason my WRE keeps blowing up.   Testing the theory now.
18:32 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:32 <+MrHairgrease> cool
18:32 <+MrHairgrease> I'm very busy right now
18:44 < SDuensin> That's cool.  I think I figured it out.  wremonitor was mad about being on a multi-homed host.
18:44 < SDuensin> Quick change to wremonitor.conf and I'm up and going!
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18:46 <+perlDreamer> SDuensin, is this your homegrown WRE, or the binary?
18:47 < SDuensin> Either.  My compiled one did the same thing.
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> sduensin are you on gentoo?
18:47 <+perlDreamer> well, consistency can be good.... ;)
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> i tried that once
18:47 < SDuensin> CentOS4
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> and that was a wasted weekend
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> dunno that one
18:47 < SDuensin> What was happening is that I have four IPs + localhost...
18:48 < SDuensin> I have x.x.x.37 running Apache 1.3 doing host-management type crap...
18:48 < SDuensin> WebGUI is on x.x.x.38...
18:49 < SDuensin> wremonitor was testing ports 80 and 81 on localhost.  Apache 1.3 answered for 80, but not 81, so wremonitor reset WebGUI's two Apache servers.
18:49 < SDuensin> I changed "hostname=localhost" to "hostname=x.x.x.38" in wremonitor.conf and I seem to be fixed!
18:50 < SDuensin> Very simple fix for something that took me a week to find.  :-)
18:51  * SDuensin is stupid happy at the moment!
18:54 < ckotil> wierd.
18:54 < ckotil> did you try to use 127.0.0.1 ?
18:56 < SDuensin> Actually, change that - no Apache's answer on 127.0.0.1 because I have each bound to their own IP so they don't conflict with each other.
18:57 < SDuensin> I had to edit http.modperl.conf and http.modproxy.conf to listen on a single IP so my other Apache server (the third one) could also run on 80, but a different IP.
18:58 < ckotil> ah.
18:59 < ckotil> could you set modperl to port localhost:81 then give a unique ip to all the apache's?
19:01 < SDuensin> Probably, but then wremonitor would fail looking for modproxy since nothing is bound to 80 on localhost.
19:09 < ckotil> you can edit that. i thin
19:09 < ckotil> k
19:09 < ckotil> tho ive never used the wre...so i dunno for certain
19:10 < SDuensin> I just put the IP in the wremonitor.conf.  So far, so good.
19:11 < ckotil> http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/ shwing
19:12 < ckotil> that looks to be a good resource
19:12 < SDuensin> page deleted?
19:17 < ckotil> hrmm
19:17 < ckotil> wierd. it works for me
19:17 < ckotil> other people saw page deleted too
19:18 < ckotil> http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/perl/cookbook/index.htm 
19:18 < ckotil> all the oriely books are here
19:24 < SDuensin> Not for me.
19:25 < nuba> ckotil: whoa that is old
19:25 < nuba> i've seen that website not a few years ago
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19:25 < ckotil> so you can axx it?
19:26 < ckotil> everyone (including SDuensin) cannot
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19:26 < nuba> guess .ua people aren't quite responsive about turning stuff down
19:26 < nuba> cause lots of online book sites disappeared some time ago
19:26 < ckotil> well they are doing a lot of blocking
19:26 < nuba> looks like oreilly was on a witch hunt
19:26 < ckotil> i imagine i can axx it bc of my .edu domain
19:27 < ckotil> im mirroring ;)
19:28 < nuba> weird thing
19:28 < SDuensin> hehe
19:28 < nuba> i get page deleted when opening it from a US-based machine
19:28 < ckotil> right
19:28 < ckotil> everyone ive showed the link to gets that as well
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19:29 < SDuensin> Um, not everyone.  :-)
19:29 < wgGuest01> I am thinking about building a house for sale by owner site, is webgui good for that?
19:29 < SDuensin> WebGUI is a good idea for everything!
19:29 < wgGuest01> is it easy to build custom forms and collect images and data and then display it?
19:30  * SDuensin doesn't know about that.  He's a n00b.  <G>
19:31 <+perlDreamer> wgGuest01, you can do that with WebGUI
19:31 < wgGuest01> I was comparing it to drupal and how it seems fairly easy to put together a form with image upload etc in drupal, is it that easy in gui as well
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19:31 <+perlDreamer> You can do it with the Collaboration System
19:31 <+perlDreamer> or with the DataForm
19:31 <+perlDreamer> or with the SQL Form
19:31 < nuba> ckotil: checking the HTTP headers, from brazil and from US, im talking to the same apache
19:31 <+perlDreamer> or, if you want, custom code
19:31 < nuba> ckotil: only it gets a 403 forbidden reply from the US
19:31 < nuba> ckotil: so looks like it's blocked by the site's owner
19:31 < ckotil> ya
19:32 <+perlDreamer> Just be sure to read the freely available online docs before asking lots of questions.
19:32 < nuba> ckotil: maybe to comply to some request that came from the US :)
19:32 < wgGuest01> ok, cool; thx perlDreamer.
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19:32 < nuba> ckotil: happens sometimes.. you know, theres this thing in the US, called lawyers.. ;)
19:32 < ckotil> right
19:33 < ckotil> these books are quite outdated anyway
19:33 < nuba> ckotil: they're everywhere.. its scary !
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19:54 < ckotil> perlbot: pastebin
19:54 < perlbot> (see paste)
19:54 < ckotil> perlbot: paste
19:54 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
19:56 < ckotil> http://erxz.com/pb/2262
19:56 < ckotil> workflow activity to remind users when a version tag is pending. to be included in the daily tasks workflow
19:57 < ckotil> but....no email goes out. and there is a UI qwerk. when you click save it takes you to the edit workflow screen of the workflow you want to be reminded about.
19:57 < ckotil> ODD
19:58 <+perlDreamer> no errors in the WebGUI.log?
19:58 < ckotil> nothting at all
20:02 <+perlDreamer> I'll try to look at it in a little bit.
20:02 <+perlDreamer> I have the sneaking suspicion that there's some form variable stomping going on though
20:02 <+perlDreamer> Check out the HTML source for your edit form and look for duplicate variable names
20:11 < ckotil> will do.
20:22 < ckotil> ill try changing workflowID to something else.
20:22 < ckotil> after lunch. ;)
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21:36 < ckotil> what dictates the order of the form fields in the admin console?
21:36 < ckotil> bc i cant make sense of it. seems like no rhyme or reason...or css.
21:38 <+perlDreamer> it should be the same as the order in the definition sub.
21:38 <+perlDreamer> but I gotta head to lunch myself
21:38 <+perlDreamer> bbl
21:38 < ckotil> k
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21:51 < pjesi> ckotil: yes I know, it seems nondeterministic to me :)
21:51 < ckotil> ;]
22:18 < ckotil> the UI qwerk disappeared, when i changed those variable names
22:20 <+MrHairgrease> w00t
22:20 <+MrHairgrease> i just migrated 101 mailinglists from a majordom system to mailman
22:20 <+MrHairgrease> and integrated everything with webgui
22:20 <+MrHairgrease> and noone noticed!
22:22 < ckotil> good job
22:23 < ckotil> we use listserv
22:25 <+MrHairgrease> listserv might have been a better choice on hindsight
22:25 <+MrHairgrease> we have mainly private lists
22:26 <+MrHairgrease> but the mailman webinterface allows everyone to request a subscription
22:26 <+MrHairgrease> not that i grant those
22:26 <+MrHairgrease> but still
22:26 <+MrHairgrease> the whole form should not appear imo
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23:45 <+perlDreamer> Does the WRE contain source for all the perl modules required by WebGUI?
23:48 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: please paste your updated code
23:49 < ckotil> k
23:50 < ckotil> http://erxz.com/pb/2266
23:50 < ckotil> that workflow fieldType is convinient
23:50 <+perlDreamer> very
23:51 <@Haarg> your property is 'sendTo', but you have ->get("to")
23:51 < ckotil> ah.
23:51 <+perlDreamer> If you have time, you may want to write up a quick wiki article about Workflow Activity building, and note that the workflowId form variable is taken.
23:51 <+perlDreamer> either that, or we can add it to the POD
23:51 < ckotil> alright
23:51 <+perlDreamer> it's buggy
23:52 < ckotil> Ill do that
23:52 < ckotil> to test this, what ive been doing is simply set the daily workflow task to execute every minute
23:53 < ckotil> and i have a pending version tag
23:54 < ckotil> execute via the scheduler.
23:54 < ckotil> i hope that to field is what was preventing the email from going out
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--- Day changed Thu Apr 19 2007
00:02 < roastpork> I posted this question to pb forum but didn't get adequate answer.  Is the required weather modules missing from the latest wre?
00:03  * ckotil shakes his fist at hte weather asset
00:03 < ckotil> it SHOULD be in the wre.
00:03 < roastpork> OK, sorry.  New to this stuff...
00:03 < ckotil> everything should be. its a self contained cms in a box
00:03 < ckotil> no problem, no need to apologize
00:03 < roastpork> That's what i thought (self contained).
00:04 < ckotil> the weather asset has caused me a lot of grief. still does on my development box :/
00:04 < roastpork> I'm trying to demo in process of selecting a new CMS and the weather asset is one of those "ooh that's cool!"
00:05 < ckotil> yah, i can see it being very useful.
00:05 < roastpork> Easy way to "insert missing" or just revert to source install?
00:06 < ckotil> source install is more advanced
00:06 < roastpork> Install is PITA, hope product turns out to be worth it.
00:06 < ckotil> you really have to know the ins and outs of apache/modperl/perl/
00:06 < ckotil> i love it.
00:06 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu is my site
00:07 < ckotil> we  use webgui to automate all sorts of things
00:07 < roastpork> From all indiactions it looks like something I'd enjoy working with.
00:07 < ckotil> weekly reports, workflows, version control of our docvuments.
00:07 < ckotil> hell ive even made it work as a document/knowledge repository
00:07 < roastpork> Interesting, I'm from Indiana State.
00:07 < ckotil> Im at IU bloomington
00:08 < ckotil> you know chris barlow?
00:08 < ckotil> bartlow*
00:08 < roastpork> I'm new since Jan. so don't think so.
00:08 < ckotil> cool.
00:09 < roastpork> Well, I guess I'll tackle the source install, but hate cpan to mess up my beloved and well maintained rpm database.
00:09 < ckotil> bang on the wre a little more
00:09 < ckotil> it will get messy
00:09 < ckotil> the source install, bc of cpan.
00:09 < ckotil> theres literally 30 modules
00:10 < roastpork> I'm not too terribly fluent with the perl module layout.  is it something I could compile and just copy into wre directories?
00:10 < ckotil> no everything you need should be contained within the wre.
00:10 < ckotil> you might be missing some special compiler tho. but it uses standard stuff like gcc3
00:11 < roastpork> ok so if I use the perl/cpan from within wre  I can do this?. i.e. installed into /data/wre....
00:12 < ckotil> yes it should all be contained within /data/wre
00:12 < ckotil> tho, i wish someone else would verify that for me.
00:12 < ckotil> i dont use the wre personallly. i run from source
00:12 < ckotil> i was unable to ever get the wre to compile
00:13 < roastpork> I'm just trying to get the binary wre to behave.
00:13 < ckotil> good luck. im heading home.
00:13 < roastpork> perhaps I should try to compile from source overbnight?
00:13 < roastpork> Good evening.
00:51 <+perlDreamer> You're not going all Gandalf on us, are you roastpork/
00:51 <+perlDreamer> Because you're not coming in for tea.
00:55 < roastpork> I don't know what that means but I doubt it.  I fixed it.
00:57 -!- roastpork [n=mcolliga@139.102.48.63] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
00:58 <+perlDreamer> In the Hobbit, when Gandalf first came to visit Bilbo, he keep saying Good Evening.
00:58 <+perlDreamer> Because he wanted Bilbo to invite him into tea
00:59 <+perlDreamer> so he could get invited to tea later
00:59 <+perlDreamer> That's when the dwarves started showing up
00:59 <+perlDreamer> and they partied at his house and tempted him with thoughts of recovered dragon gold and adventure
01:02 <+perlDreamer> He left late the next morning, and didn't even have a pocket handkerchief
01:02 <+perlDreamer> (that part always chokes me up)
01:03 <+perlDreamer> but in the end, he got a lot of gold, found out that he was braver than he thought, and earned the friendship of the dwarves
01:03 <+perlDreamer> oh, and a gold ring
01:03 <+perlDreamer> but that's a different story
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01:12 <@rizen> how goes it peeps!
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01:28 <+perlDreamer> hey, man!
01:28 <+perlDreamer> I thought you were VPN'ed all day today?
01:28 <+perlDreamer> Did you just get done?
01:28 <@rizen> just got done
01:28 <@rizen> 7.5 hour upgrade
01:29 <@rizen> mainly because their servers didn't have internet access, so i had to download everything to my laptop
01:29 <@rizen> vpn in
01:29 <@rizen> scp from my laptop 
01:29 <@rizen> and then do the upgrade
01:29 <@rizen> and if i missed a package here and there
01:29 <@rizen> had to disconnect download, reconnect, upload, etc
01:29 <+perlDreamer> what kind of VPN software do they use?
01:30 <@rizen> it's a standard pptp thing
01:30 <+perlDreamer> On linux, you can use vpnc
01:30 <@rizen> i believe the box on their end is cisco...but it doesn't require you to use the cisco client
01:30 <@rizen> i'm on a mac
01:30 <+perlDreamer> I know
01:30 <+perlDreamer> That's a tease ;)
01:31 <@rizen> hmmm...in that case, most shit just works, and i've never even thought about compiling a kernel module on my laptop
01:31 <@rizen> =)
01:31 <+perlDreamer> me either
01:31 <+perlDreamer> I use rpm's
01:31 <+perlDreamer> but you do have nice eye candy
01:32 <@rizen> before i converted to mac i used to use linux as my desktop
01:32 <+perlDreamer> and you didn't have any funky problems during the WUC last year either
01:32 <+perlDreamer> like I did
01:32 <@rizen> but i was sick of contantly having problems
01:32 <@rizen> i couldn't get wifi to work
01:33 <@rizen> and when i could get it to work it would only do 11mb
01:33 <@rizen> not 54
01:33 <@rizen> and media files would never play
01:33 <@rizen> and my video editing software would always crash
01:33 <@rizen> and my 3d drivers would cause kernel panics every once in a while
01:33 <@rizen> and i couldn't get drivers for my printers unless i bought hp
01:33 <@rizen> it was a non-stop headache
01:34 <+perlDreamer> which distro?
01:34 <@rizen> i flipped around
01:34 <@rizen> ubuntu for a while, fc 3, 4, and 5
01:34 <@rizen> and used a few others like linspire
01:34 <@rizen> that one was the best
01:34 <@rizen> and mepis
01:35 <@rizen> linspire was the closest to "just works" i ever had on linux
01:35 <@rizen> my problem with that was that there weren't any good dev tools for it
01:35 <@rizen> unless you compiled everything from scratch
01:35 <@rizen> and my scanner wouldn't work from it
01:36 <@rizen> anyway...enough of me bitching
01:36 <@rizen> i like my mac now
01:36 <@rizen> check this out: http://www.lulu.com/plainblack
01:37 <@rizen> we haven't announced it on our site yet
01:37 <@rizen> but people are always asking for the vids and presentations from previous wucs
01:37 <+perlDreamer> With the number of people on IRC, you probably just did. :)
01:37 <@rizen> so we're going to start selling them on lulu
01:37 <+perlDreamer> It's nice.
01:37 <@rizen> 2004 is uploading now
01:37 <@rizen> and next week kristi will start ripping the vids for 2006
01:38 <+perlDreamer> On the recordings, it would be nice to know how long they are, just out of curiosity
01:38 <@rizen> 1-2 hours each
01:38 <@rizen> but i can add that
01:38 <@rizen> if you think people will want to know
01:39 <+perlDreamer> It's probably just me.
01:40 <@rizen> i've told kristi to put that on the page
01:40 <@rizen> the url i just sent you isn't one we're advertising
01:41 <@rizen> we promote all this stuff right from our site
01:47 <@rizen> i debated whether to put the old wuc vids and presentations up there
01:48 <@rizen> because i don't want to discourage people from coming from future wucs
01:48 <@rizen> but i figured by pricing it the same as a WUC ticket, that would give them the option of having the stuff, without discouraging attendance
01:49 <+perlDreamer> And missing out on Wisconsin?
01:49 <+perlDreamer> Did you know how much train history is around Madison?
01:49 <+perlDreamer> My kids are killing me to let them come and ride
01:49 <@rizen> a lot
01:49 <+perlDreamer> But two problems
01:50 <+perlDreamer> 1) School is in session
01:50 <@rizen> there's this cool restaurant here that's built inside of an old train
01:50 <+perlDreamer> 2) The trains close weeks before the WUC
01:50 <+perlDreamer> they'd like that
01:50 <@rizen> sorry man, we tried to get it in september, but the hotels were all booked up
01:51 <+perlDreamer> October is good
01:51 <+perlDreamer> This might be my last WUC for a while
01:51 <+perlDreamer> Kathy starts nursing school in '08
01:52 <@rizen> that's what you think
01:52 <@rizen> i wont' let you not come
01:52 <+perlDreamer> Maybe Mom would still come up and hang with kids while Kathy goes to school
01:53 <@rizen> exactly
01:57 <@rizen> are you still getting overrun at work?
01:57 <+perlDreamer> Yes.
01:57 <+perlDreamer> Although it takes a dark turn next week
01:57 <@rizen> excellent
01:57 <+perlDreamer> I have to bench test someone else's chip.
01:57 <@rizen> at least you're not bored
01:57 <@rizen> oh
01:58 <+perlDreamer> I'd rather be bored, so that I could hack more ;)
01:58 <@rizen> is that like peer reviewing someone else's code?
01:58 <@rizen> if so, that's yucky
01:58 <+perlDreamer> No, kind of like doing someone else's busy work
01:58 <@rizen> ah
01:58 <@rizen> even worse
01:58 <+perlDreamer> Think about rebuilding the cache code in the http proxy asset
01:58 <+perlDreamer> you look inside and go, ewwww
02:00 <+perlDreamer> why the heck do I have to deal with this?
02:01 <@rizen> uh...is it cuz that's what they pay you to do?
02:02 <+perlDreamer> It's probably just me
02:02 <+perlDreamer> But I expect a designer to test his own chip when it comes back from the fab
02:02 <@rizen> it seems like the designer should
02:03 <@rizen> and then 3 other people should
02:03 <@rizen> just to make sure it's good
02:03 <@rizen> cuz unlike software, you can't 'patch' a chip once it goes into production
02:03 <+perlDreamer> well, you can.  Kind of.
02:03 <@rizen> really?
02:03 <+perlDreamer> Few people do it in production because it's slow and costly
02:03 <+perlDreamer> But RAM is kind of that way
02:04 <+perlDreamer> RAM yields are really bad because they're so big
02:04 <+perlDreamer> So they add in extra modules.
02:04 <+perlDreamer> If one module breaks, they laser it out and enable a backup
02:04 <+perlDreamer> There's a technology called FIB (Finite Ion Beam) where they can draw
02:04 <+perlDreamer> new metal on a chip, one molecule at a time
02:04 <+perlDreamer> It really allows rewiring, not full patching
02:07 <@rizen> holy crap
02:07 <@rizen> i had no idea that stuff was even possible
02:08 <@rizen> i don't know if you've been on irc in the mornings lately
02:08 <@rizen> but there has been a lot of peeps
02:08 <+perlDreamer> I know
02:08 <@rizen> there were 19 people on yesterday morning
02:08 <+perlDreamer> It's cool
02:08 <@rizen> yeah
02:09 <+perlDreamer> I keep seeing posts on the boards about new people trying to get wG started.
02:09 <+perlDreamer> I think the v7 growth cycle has started
02:10 <+perlDreamer> which means PB is in trouble, because the wave is coming
02:16 <@rizen> phone brb
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02:40 <@rizen> are we allowed to have both a perlDreamer and a perlmonkey?
02:41 <@rizen> sorry for the delay
02:41 <@rizen> twas my mom calling...she just got back from a trip to kentucky..so she was a bit chat happy
02:41 <@rizen> all i can say to your previous comment is, bring it on
02:41 <@rizen> we're already swamped...so what's a few more
02:47 < perlmonkey2> sometimes monkeys dream too.
02:49 <+perlDreamer> time for me to head home
02:50 <+perlDreamer> I'll be back on later tonight
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05:10  * PedersenMJ waves
05:10  * SDuensin farts
05:11 < PedersenMJ> Too many bean burritos, eh?
05:11 < SDuensin> :-)
05:11  * SDuensin does the happy dance!
05:11 < SDuensin> I fixed my crashing WRE today!
05:12 < PedersenMJ> Good job! Though I'm at a loss to understand how the bean burritos fixed WRE.
05:12 < SDuensin> GAS POWER!
05:13 < SDuensin> Like Chris Taylor at Gas Powered Games.  He named the company that because gas powered things are better than electric ones.
05:13 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay...
05:14  * PedersenMJ tries hooking SDuensin up to a bizarro-world to English translator. Let's see if it works.
05:14 < SDuensin> :-)
05:15  * SDuensin has games on the brain.  He's starting to write one with some friends.  Just finished drawing out the first draft of the map.
05:16 < SDuensin> That map was the first time I've used a pencil in a LOOOONG time!
05:16 < PedersenMJ> I've got one I would kill to see written. Too bad I don't have the math background to write it myself.
05:17 <@rizen> SD, what kind of game?
05:17 < SDuensin> Hey rizen !
05:17 <@rizen> howd
05:17 <@rizen> howdy
05:18 < SDuensin> Well, this first one is our "training wheels" game so we can get used to the tools and engine...
05:18 < SDuensin> We're going to remake the 1981 Sierra On Line title "Mystery House" in true 3D for Windows/Mac/Linux.  Mystery House was the very first adventure game with graphics.
05:19 <@rizen> cool
05:19 <@rizen> i wish i had the time to work on my own game
05:19 < SDuensin> After that, I've got two more original titles roughly designed that we're going to attempt.
05:19 < SDuensin> Yea, me too.  :-)
05:19 <@rizen> i used to make at least one game a year
05:19 < PedersenMJ> Which tools/engine, SD?
05:19 <@rizen> i haven't made one in 4 years cuz webgui took off
05:19 < SDuensin> Still kind of undecided on all the tools.  Engine is the Torque Game Engine from www.garagegames.com...
05:20 < SDuensin> I've licensed almost all their software.  We're going to use TGE instead of their advanced engine since the advanced one isn't portable and is still pretty rough around the edges.
05:20 <@rizen> that's a good engine
05:21 < SDuensin> Yep.  It's come a long way in the past few years.
05:21 < SDuensin> For a single-player game it's a bit awkward, but I figure we can rip out 99% of the server code.
05:22 <@rizen> it can totally be used for a single player game
05:22 <@rizen> several of my favorite single player games have been written using it
05:22 <@rizen> bridge construction set for one
05:23 < SDuensin> Yep.  I've worked with it before and did a prototype single-player action game.  Out of the box it's pretty much geared for shooters.
05:24 <@rizen> i own nearly all the garage games
05:24 <@rizen> love them
05:24 <@rizen> all those indy devs make the best games
05:25 < SDuensin> I agree.  :-)
05:25 < SDuensin> I bought Marble Blast Ultra on my 360.
05:25 <@rizen> yeah that's a goodie
05:25 < SDuensin> I get several of their other titles through GameTap.
05:25 <@rizen> the most recent one i bought that is AWESOME is tube twist
05:27 < SDuensin> Play with their new site yet?  GreatGamesExperiment.com?
05:28 <@rizen> nope
05:29 < SDuensin> It's a neat idea.  Think MySpace, but instead of being linked together by friends, you're linked together by gaming interests.  (And the site doesn't suck.)
05:29 < SDuensin> The goal is to get exposure for indie developers by matching up their titles with like commercial titles people have heard of.
05:30 <@rizen> you know what i say
05:30 <@rizen> fuck the fucking fuckers
05:30 < SDuensin> I've thought about really beefing up my profile and going gangbusters on that site, but then I thought to myself...  Why?  I have WebGUI to run a site with!  :-)
05:30 < SDuensin> I FIXED MY WRE!   WHOOOOO!
05:30 <@rizen> sweet
05:30 <@rizen> what was it?
05:31 < SDuensin> My server has four IPs + localhost.  Apache 1.3 runs all my hosting control panels and crap and is on x.x.x.37...
05:31 < SDuensin> WebGUI is on x.x.x.38...
05:31 < SDuensin> wremonitor was checking 127.0.0.1 and not getting an answer, so it'd kill the WRE Apache servers.
05:32 < SDuensin> I changed "hostname=localhost" in wremonitor.conf to "hostname=x.x.x.38" and it's happy as a clam!
05:32 <@rizen> hehe
05:32 < SDuensin> Such a simple fix for something that took a week to find.  :-)
05:32 <@rizen> it's always the simple stuff
05:32 < SDuensin> Yep!
05:33 < SDuensin> It was annoying - I thought of wremonitor being the problem as I went to bed last night.  Had a hell of a time falling asleep.  I should have just got up and fixed it, but I waited until today.
05:33 < SDuensin> Anyway, I've drawn my first draft of my game map.  I'm going to bed.
05:33 < SDuensin> Talk to you all tomorrow!
05:33 <@rizen> later
05:34 < PedersenMJ> l7r sd
05:35 < PedersenMJ> erm, l8r SD
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06:17 < cap10morgan> any tips for debugging commits that fail on line 108 of VersionTag.pm? (where it's calling $asset->commit() on an undefined value)
06:17 < cap10morgan> this is in a custom wobject i wrote
06:17 < cap10morgan> it works fine until i try to commit my changes
06:17 < cap10morgan> then i get that error
06:18 <@rizen> indeed i do
06:18 <@rizen> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/plainblack/revision?rev=4004
06:19 <@rizen> that patch will at least tell you what revision of what asset cannot be instanciated
06:19 <@rizen> if you would like, you could add further debug
06:19 <@rizen> at that point
06:19 <@rizen> where the asset is created
06:20 <@rizen> s/created/instanciated/
06:20 < cap10morgan> cool, thanks
06:27 < cap10morgan> hmm, well, it's the asset and revision i thought it was
06:27 < cap10morgan> but i still don't have a clue why... :)
06:27 <@rizen> you can wrapper it with an eval { }
06:27 <@rizen> and find out
06:27 <@rizen> why
06:27 <@rizen> wait
06:27 <@rizen> nevermind
06:28 <@rizen> your log should say why
06:29 <@rizen> if it doesn't
06:29 <@rizen> then the only reason can be that the asset doesn't have full data
06:29 <@rizen> meaning
06:29 <@rizen> there is an entry missing in  one of the tables
06:29 <@rizen> asset, assetData, wobject, or your class table
06:30 <@rizen> and start by looking at your class table
06:30 < cap10morgan> and it just randomly committed...
06:30 < cap10morgan> that's weird
06:31 <@rizen> no
06:31 <@rizen> the version tag commited
06:31 <@rizen> the asset did not
06:31 <@rizen> that patch i gave you
06:31 <@rizen> skips the asset
06:31 <@rizen> and continues on with the rest
06:31 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
06:32 < cap10morgan> there was probably a corrupt one in there from when i was working on the wobject's code and db table
06:32 < cap10morgan> that makes sense
06:32 < cap10morgan> thanks jt
06:33 < cap10morgan> will that patch be in 7.3.15?
06:35 <@rizen> yes
06:35 < cap10morgan> cool
06:37 <@rizen> i just added one more patch
06:37 <@rizen> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/plainblack/revision?rev=4006
06:37 <@rizen> it won't tell you anything more than what i just told you
06:38 <@rizen> but at least in the future you won't need me to tell you it
06:38 <@rizen> =)
06:39 < cap10morgan> :)
06:39 < cap10morgan> cool
06:40 <+Radix-wrk> trying to integrate different javascript stuff with webgui - what's the best way to handle different BODY onload requirements for different pages in webgui?
06:40 < cap10morgan> very timely work you're doing there, jt :)
06:40 <@rizen> indeed cap. just had that come up for a client today
06:40 <@rizen> or maybe yesterday
06:41 <+Radix-wrk> the <body> section is generally in the style template generally, but the rest of the javascript code is in an asset template
06:41 <@rizen> radix...i stay away from body onload stuff
06:41 <@rizen> cuz it's dangerous
06:41 <@rizen> and error prone
06:41 <@rizen> instead, i add a <script> block to the end of the section i'm dealing with, or i use YUI's methodology
06:41 <+Radix-wrk> but it's used everywhere in custom scripts
06:42 <@rizen> i understand that, but just because they say to use onload, doesn't mean you have to
06:42 <@rizen> that just means you need to trigger something to happen
06:42 <+Radix-wrk> so how else can I ensure it's called?
06:42 <@rizen> as long as you understand when you need it triggered
06:42 <@rizen> you can put a snippet at the bottom of the page you want it triggered on
06:42 <+Radix-wrk> So I've created an image template.. and every page that has an object with that template on it I need it run
06:42 <@rizen> the last thing 
06:43 <@rizen> and then add  <script type="text/javascript"> callTheFunction(); </script>
06:43 <@rizen> ok, you can put it at the bottom of that template then
06:43 <+Radix-wrk> Ahh k
06:44 <+Radix-wrk> So I could put that in the head section after the custom js/css is loaded then
06:44 <@rizen> you have to put it somewhere where all the elements it interacts with will already be loaded
06:44 <@rizen> so if all the elements are in the head block
06:44 <+Radix-wrk> I suppose then if I had multiples it would be called multiple times if I did that.. okey.. so a snippet at the bottom of the page I can deal with
06:44 <@rizen> then you're good
06:45 <+Radix-wrk> yup.. makes sense - cheers
06:45 <@rizen> if it must happen when the page loads
06:45 <@rizen> still don't use onload
06:45 <@rizen> because it's faulty
06:45 <@rizen> instead use https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/plainblack/revision?rev=4006
06:45 <@rizen> ooops
06:45 <@rizen> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/event/#onavailable
06:46 <+Radix-wrk> okey.. I'll look into it
06:47 <+Radix-wrk> trying to see if I can get lightbox.js working in webgui - as a template for an image object
06:47 <@rizen> i thought that lightbox needed a list of images?
06:47 <+Radix-wrk> can do either one, or many
06:48 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox2/
06:48 <@rizen> at 2007 wuc
06:48 <@rizen> steve is going to have a presentation on folder
06:48 <@rizen> and using lightbox with it
06:48 <+Radix-wrk> neat
06:48 <@rizen> along with some other crazy folder templating stuff
06:48 <@rizen> i know you can't come to the WUC this year
06:48 <+Radix-wrk> Wish I could go again this year
06:48 <@rizen> but we'll be putting the content online
06:48 <@rizen> afterwards
06:48 <+Radix-wrk> Well hopefully he'll share his stuff afterwards :)
06:49 <+Radix-wrk> cool
06:49 <@rizen> http://www.lulu.com/plainblack
06:49 <@rizen> we're putting up all the previous wuc's content
06:49 <+Radix-wrk> title for that page is missing btw ;)
06:49 <@rizen> its' still the price of the ticket
06:49 <+Radix-wrk> 's Storefront
06:49 <@rizen> good point
06:50 <@rizen> anyway...it's still the price of a wuc ticket, but none of the travel costs
06:50 <+Radix-wrk> Cool
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06:53 < cap10morgan> i've got a basically working version of the Asset Report wobject
06:53 < cap10morgan> which i'll post as a contribution soon
06:54 <@rizen> sweet
06:54 < cap10morgan> but it still has a lot of navigation code in it (i based it on the nav asset), which may or may not actually be necessary :)
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07:02 <+perlDreamer> ahoy, guys, I'm back!
07:02 <+Radix-wrk> yay!
07:03 <@rizen> howdy
07:03 <+perlDreamer> Have you all seen the new DataForm bug?  About exporting tab deliniated data?
07:03 <@rizen> nope
07:03 <+perlDreamer> Bug?
07:04 <@rizen> i've hired someone to look at bugs for me
07:04 <@rizen> =)
07:04 <+perlDreamer> Well, he's not here so we'll have to slum tonight
07:04 <+perlDreamer> Besides, you're the only guy with design history
07:04 <@rizen> actually i'm going to set nik on bug fixing all next week too
07:05 <@rizen> bah
07:05 <@rizen> you have design history
07:05 <+perlDreamer> I do.
07:05 <+perlDreamer> Yeah, I do.
07:07 <+perlDreamer> Well, it is Michele
07:07 <+perlDreamer> And I need to spend all of tonight cross-porting my pre-7.4 work anyway
07:08 <@rizen> cross porting?
07:08 < cap10morgan> ok, AssetReport is posted as a contribution
07:08 <+perlDreamer> I made a separate tree for doing pre-4.0 work
07:08 <@rizen> with screenshots?
07:08 < cap10morgan> feel free to tear it to shreds :)
07:08 <+perlDreamer> and I can't do anything with it because of the repo change
07:08 <+perlDreamer> cap10morgan: does it have a test suite?
07:08 <+perlDreamer> Help
07:08 <+perlDreamer> i18n
07:09 <@rizen> good job tearing it to shreds pd
07:09 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: it has i18n
07:09 <+perlDreamer> cool!
07:09 < cap10morgan> It's a pretty lame modification of the nav asset, truth be told :)
07:09 <+perlDreamer> templates?
07:10 <+perlDreamer> dude, we need to show how to do this stuff
07:10 <+perlDreamer> It will make your life much easier
07:10 <+perlDreamer> and encourage other people to use your things
07:10 <@rizen> am i "dood"
07:10 <+perlDreamer> and make it about 10X easier to get it put into the core
07:10 < cap10morgan> yes, it uses templates
07:10 <+perlDreamer> then you need a template installer script
07:10 <+perlDreamer> and some sample templates
07:10 <@rizen> you assume i want everything someone creates in teh core
07:11 <+perlDreamer> no, rizen.  Only the good stuff
07:11 <+perlDreamer> and weren't you leaning this way anyway?
07:11 <+perlDreamer> or is that "in the future" stuff?
07:11 < cap10morgan> gotta run. feel free to tell me what else it needs in the contribution thread. thanks guys.
07:14 <@rizen> oh yeah
07:15 <@rizen> i want this kind of an asset
07:15 <@rizen> i'm just not saying i want everything
07:15 <@rizen> i dont' even want half the stuff that webgui does now
07:15 <+perlDreamer> Let's get rid of it
07:15 <+perlDreamer> Move it into contribs
07:15 <@rizen> we'd have a huge mutiny on our hands
07:16 <+Radix-wrk> surely that's what the config file is for tho?  removing the stuff you don't want
07:16 <@rizen> no..i don't want to support it
07:16 <@rizen> i don't want to fix bugs in it
07:16 <+perlDreamer> yeah, what he said
07:16 <@rizen> i don't want to document it
07:16 <@rizen> i don't want to write tests for it (nor have pd do those things)
07:17 <+Radix-wrk> Ahh :(
07:17 <@rizen> i just wish i could find a way to make it easy for people to install custom plugins on a per site basis
07:19 <@rizen> if i could do that, then i could get rid of all the crap i don't want
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Now, I *know* that I'm going to be wrong in my thinking here, but in the overly simplistic world view that I have, wouldn't it be possible to store most of the config for the plugins in the database, have webgui read that at startup, and then maintain the list in memory while running?
07:22 <@rizen> the config isn't the problem
07:22 <@rizen> it's perl
07:22 <@rizen> once you load a module in perl it's resident
07:23 <@rizen> that means that you can't have two versions of the same thing
07:23 <@rizen> and that also means that if one person loads something faulty
07:23 <@rizen> it can blow up the whole server
07:23 <@rizen> that's why letting people upload their own plugins won't ever work in webgui
07:23 <@rizen> and from a security point of view
07:24 <@rizen> even if people could upload their own plugins, i don't think i'd want them to
07:24 <+perlDreamer> You mean on a shared server?
07:24 <@rizen> that's one of the reasons that those PHP apps are so insecure
07:24 <@rizen> people can just upload a plugin
07:24 <@rizen> and who knows what it does
07:24 <@rizen> of course on a shared server...on a non-shared server i have a solution
07:25 <@rizen> and it's called WRE 0.8.0
07:25 <@rizen> it will have a plugin manager
07:25 <@rizen> sorry, didn't mean to be sarcastic
07:25 < PedersenMJ> Does perl have a concept of namespaces? (Yes, I just asked that question. I know some languages do, others don't, and I honestly don't know if Perl does or not).
07:25 <+perlDreamer> It does
07:25 <+perlDreamer> but not by version
07:26 <+perlDreamer> If you use mod_perl and have two sites
07:26 <+perlDreamer> and site #1 loads a plug-in
07:26 <+perlDreamer> site #2 can see it two
07:26 <@rizen> version numbers aren't included in the namespace
07:26 <@rizen> though we could make plugins do that
07:26 <@rizen> to solve the problem
07:26 <@rizen> but that doesn't solve the security or blow up problem
07:27 <+perlDreamer> What if we could have plug-in signatures?
07:27 <+perlDreamer> Kind of like a PB blessing?
07:27 <@rizen> so you have to get a certificate that says this module is blow up safe?
07:27 < PedersenMJ> Okay, here's where I would go to solve the problem in Python (which, I handle better than I do OO Perl): Make a namespace which has the name of the site, and then put the plugin under that namespace. Make the site search its own namespace first before searching a global namespace for a module.
07:28 <+perlDreamer> sure.  It's a service to plug-in writers
07:28 <+perlDreamer> or to plug-in users
07:28 <+perlDreamer> or both
07:28 <+perlDreamer> Almost like SSL
07:28 <+perlDreamer> You'd be the certificate authority
07:28 <@rizen> but we'd have to charge for it, because it would take time to review the code and test it
07:28 < PedersenMJ> Still doesn't handle the blow up or security issues, to be sure, but it could be a starting point for getting plugins more outside the core.
07:28 <@rizen> and it would have to be reviewed for various versions of webgui as well
07:29 <+perlDreamer> Sure you would, and that would give it authority and credibility
07:29 <+perlDreamer> Plus, it's PlainBlack.  You guys make WebGUI
07:29 <+perlDreamer> No one else could do it
07:29 <@rizen> i don't know if anyone would pay what it would cost to do it
07:30 <@rizen> besides we're GPL, and therefore plugins have to be GPL
07:30 <@rizen> so that means there isn't a license revenue stream that the developer could use
07:30 <@rizen> to recoup that cost
07:31 <+perlDreamer> People can still charge for GPL software
07:31 <+perlDreamer> Look at RedHat
07:32 <+perlDreamer> and Novell, ew.
07:32 <@rizen> let's be realistic
07:32 < PedersenMJ> Not effectively, though. RedHat doesn't charge for software, per se. They charge for support.
07:32 <@rizen> nobody is going to do that for a webgui plugin
07:32 < PedersenMJ> Novell... I don't even know what their business model is, honestly.
07:37 <@rizen> i wish i had about a million $$$ to throw into webgui dev
07:37 <@rizen> cuz i have so much stuff i want to do
07:38 <+perlDreamer> What do you want to do/
07:38 <@rizen> and i even have ways to recoup that money
07:38 <@rizen> the problem is that i don't have that money up front
07:38 <@rizen> so i don't have a way to recoup it
07:38 <+perlDreamer> You need investors
07:38 <+perlDreamer> Or volunteers
07:38 <@rizen> there are 8 apps that i would sell on a software as service basis
07:39 <@rizen> they wouldn't be included in the webgui core
07:39 <@rizen> but they'd run on webgui 
07:39 <@rizen> and people could subscribe to them
07:39 <@rizen> in addition, i'd convert data form and sql form into "webdb"
07:39 <@rizen> a new asset i've been dreaming up
07:40 <+perlDreamer> Like Access for wG?
07:40 <@rizen> i'd refactor the survey, dashboard, ws client, and sql report similar to how we refactored the calendar
07:41 <@rizen> and i'd do all the commerce changes i've been planning all these years
07:41 <@rizen> yes, like access for webgui...only instead of building stupid stuff you'd be building a web app all point and click like
07:42 <@rizen> and finally, i'd build a web based style/template editor
07:42 <@rizen> i plan on doing all these anyway
07:42 <@rizen> it's just going to take years
07:42 <+perlDreamer> that's a lot of coding
07:42 <@rizen> because i can't hire people to do it all
07:44 <@rizen> if i had a million, then i could hire 10 or 12 developers and have all that done in a year
07:48 < PedersenMJ> now, bedtime for bonzo. G'night al.
07:48 < PedersenMJ> erm, all, even
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07:54 <+perlDreamer> paid or not, it sounds like fun
07:54 <@rizen> so which one are you taking on then?
07:54 <@rizen> =)
07:55 <+perlDreamer> I'm already signed up to do testing and documentation for an open source project.
07:55 <@rizen> are you talking about any project in particular
07:55 <+perlDreamer> Yeah, it's called WebGUI
07:55 <@rizen> one that starts with a w and ends with an i perhaps
07:55 <@rizen> hehe
07:55 <+perlDreamer> You're psychic!
07:55 <@rizen> you know...you can do anything you want
07:55 <@rizen> you don't have to do those things
07:56 <+perlDreamer> I like the testing
07:56 <@rizen> in that case, test away my friend
07:56 <+perlDreamer> If you want to spec out another project, though, I'd be willing to take a break
07:57 <@rizen> is there anything in there that sounds interesting to you?
07:57 <+perlDreamer> Commerce rewrite scares me.
07:57 <+perlDreamer> Asset refactoring could be very fun.
07:58 <@rizen> any particular one?
07:58 <+perlDreamer> Survey or SQL Report
07:58 <+perlDreamer> I've worked in the WS Client
07:58 <@rizen> ok
07:58  * perlDreamer shudders
07:58 <@rizen> hehe
07:58 <@rizen> if that's the case, then i choose survey
07:58 <+perlDreamer> okay
07:59 <@rizen> i'll have screenshots and a dev plan for you in a week
07:59 <+perlDreamer> That will give me time to finish up my contract with Jamie, then.
08:23 <+Radix-wrk> Cool.. got Lightbox all working and nicely embedded in an image template :)
08:23 <@rizen> sweet
08:23 <@rizen> what's the url?
08:24 <+Radix-wrk> umm.. internal only atm - haven't used it on any public pages
08:24 <@rizen> you suck ass
08:24 <@rizen> dam aussie
08:24 <@rizen> hehe
08:24 <+Radix-wrk> I was hoping to package it up and put it in contribs
08:24 <@rizen> that's the spirit
08:24 <@rizen> aussies are cool
08:24 <+Radix-wrk> for some wierd reason it doesn't work in ie7 - no idea why..
08:25 <@rizen> that's cuz ie7 is from nz not oz
08:27 <+Radix-wrk> https://www.formsys.com/internal/staff/jesse/test-pages/lightbox-test
08:27 <+Radix-wrk> made that page accessible for everyone
08:28 <+Radix-wrk> I ended up using litebox.js in the end.. a stripped down version of lightbox
08:28 <@rizen> nice
08:29 <+Radix-wrk> because for some reason the proper lightbox2 wasn't sizing properly.
08:29 <+perlDreamer> how do you minimize the image again?
08:29 <@rizen> click on the icons in the upper right
08:29 <+Radix-wrk> there should be a close bar at the bottom of the image
08:30 <+Radix-wrk> tho there's a bug there too.. I see it fine on mine, but doesn't appear on another friends system
08:31 <+perlDreamer> No close bar.  Firefox on 1.5.0.9
08:32 <+Radix-wrk> may be a caching issue.. old css is being cached - as I had that prob initially, then updated the css.  I'll try clearing the webgui cache and see if that helps.
08:32 <+Radix-wrk> it's mostly working.. so I'm happy :)
08:33 <+Radix-wrk> when i sort out the ie7 and close bar issues I'll try packaging it up and up it
08:34 <+perlDreamer> It will be cool
08:34 <@rizen> webgui would be cool if it just sucked less
08:36 <+Radix-wrk> pd: can you try clearing your cache and load that page again and see if the close bar is there this time?
08:36 <+perlDreamer> sure
08:37 <+perlDreamer> much better
08:37 <+Radix-wrk> works now?
08:37 <+perlDreamer> I get an animation while it loads
08:37 <+Radix-wrk> cool.. was just cache then
08:37 <+perlDreamer> and a close bar
08:37 <+Radix-wrk> neat :)
08:38 <+Radix-wrk> cache was giving out an old version of the css snippet for some reason
08:38 <+Radix-wrk> cleared webgui cache and now it works !:)
08:53 <+Radix-wrk> the ie problem is a killer atm tho.. just doesnt want to load at all
08:53 <+Radix-wrk> I've no idea why.. ie7 seems to start to load the page, then stops totally and reports an error
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10:57 < AMH_mari> Hi all,
11:08 < AMH_mari> Does anyone know how to prevent WebGUI from adding a great number - about 800 in our case - 'Do Nothing on Deletion' work flows to spectre's queue? This happens e.g. when a folder that contains a lot of content (subfolders, assets) is deleted. Spectre debug mode shows that one 'Do Nothing on Deletion' workflow is handled every five to seven seconds, which makes WebGUI unresponsive for a long period (with 800 workflows): normal commits are added
11:08 < AMH_mari> to the end of the spectre queue it seems. Any thoughts, anyone?
11:12 <+Radix-wrk> Hi AMH_mari - wish I could help - but I've never seen that happen at all on my webgui setup - ask preaction/rizen perhaps when they're awake.
11:12 <@preaction> you can delete those do nothing on deletion workflows from the database if you want
11:13 <+Radix-wrk> On a different note - can I ask what the AMH bit of your name means?
11:13 < AMH_mari> Hi Radix-wrk, thanks, will try later when I see them appear, timezones...
11:14 < AMH_mari> We use the AMH_ prefix for IRC (we being AlphaMega Hosting employees).
11:15 <+Radix-wrk> cool - you guys do a lot of webgui stuff?
11:15 < AMH_mari> Delete the workflow? I tried to disable it, but that still puts something in the spectre queue it seems.
11:16 <+Radix-wrk> Seems to be quite a few dutch companies doing webgui stuff.. procolix, united knowledge and you guys as well.. tis great to see :)
11:16 < AMH_mari> We're just starting with webgui, lots of investigation going on here :-)
11:16 <+Radix-wrk> cool - good luck with it then! :)
11:16 < nuba> AMH_mari: did you try tweaking the "timeBetweenRunningWorkflows" setting at /data/WebGUI/etc/spectre.conf ?
11:17 < AMH_mari> Hi nuba, aha, I wasn't of that setting. That may help to decrease the waiting time. Thanks, will try it.
11:17 < nuba> and maybe "maxWorkers"
11:17 < nuba> so that they can "do nothing" faster ;)
11:17 < AMH_mari> :-)
11:18 <+Radix-wrk> sounds like an awful lot of nothing going on
11:18 < AMH_mari> It's named strangely indeed... What doest it do anyway?
11:19 < nuba> yeah, you know, maybe you should outsource it
11:19 <+Radix-wrk> probably nothing ;)
11:19 < nuba> if you're doing a lot of DoNothing, then maybe we could use having a dedicated DoNothing engine
11:19 < AMH_mari> The delete is very quick, seen from the browser, but then all those do nothing workflows :-)
11:20 <+Radix-wrk> Well I'm off home to do nothing.. cyas! :)
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11:20 < nuba> huh.. bye radix
11:21 < AMH_mari> cu, Radix
11:22 < AMH_mari> I think Heidegger would love it :-)
11:23 < AMH_mari> Nothing I mean...
11:57 < nuba> AMH_mari: did the tweaking help ?
11:58 < AMH_mari> Could not test it yet: my perl template importer script was running. Will try as soon as it is finished.
12:04 < AMH_mari> Yes! It does help: I have set the # of workers to 5 and the in between time to 0; spectre now goes through nothingness at full throttle :-) Thanks! :-)
12:09 < nuba> awesome
12:09 < AMH_mari> Spectre has already completed the 800 workflows. Apparently doing nothing takes no time :-)
12:10 < nuba> you may want to leave the "timeBetweenRunningWorkflows" >= 1
12:10 < nuba> see the disclaimer
12:10 < nuba> well not quite a disclaimer
12:11 < nuba> the paragraph above the setting, in the config file
12:12 < AMH_mari> Yep, saw it; I'll have this workaround enabled during development though :-)
12:13 < AMH_mari> During normal use we'll not be throwing around 70 MB of templates, it's only now while we're converting them to WebGUI (automatically with a Perl script we developed).
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16:03 < SDuensin> Good morning all!
16:04 < ckotil> hello
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16:15 < SDuensin> Morning, vayde 
16:15 <@vayde> Howdy
16:15 <@vayde> How's things?
16:16 < SDuensin> Mixed.  :-/   Day is going fine, WebGUI is rocking right along, but I got a ticket in my drive in.  Grrr.
16:17 <@vayde> Gotta love it  'to protect and serve' eh?
16:17 <@vayde> There was one camping in my parking lot when I got in
16:17 <@vayde> enough to make a guy paranoid
16:18 < SDuensin> Yea, well, I *was* speeding.  And I got to give him credit - I have *NO IDEA* where he came from.  Stealth cop!
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16:18 < SDuensin> Hi cga 
16:18 < cga> hi SDuensin 
16:32 < AMH_bob> Welcome all
16:54  * SDuensin passes AMH_bob the coffee
16:57 < AMH_bob> Yep, just finished it (a co-worker just commented that he didn't understand why I would want to drink coffee in the afternoon...)
16:58 < AMH_bob> I took a look at the YUI stuff that WebGUI seems to be using... SWEET!
16:58 <@vayde> well, your company would probably frown on a beer in the afternoon...
16:59 < AMH_bob> As far as ready-to-use javascripts, they're great!
16:59 < AMH_bob> Actually, a glass of port on firday is kinda a tradition.
16:59 < AMH_bob> (but I have to drive quite a bit, so I skip it)
17:00 <@vayde> good sign you're working in a cool place.
17:00 < AMH_bob> But beer sound good ! :P
17:00 < AMH_bob> Yep, it's a pretty nice company to be working at!
17:02 < SDuensin> YUI is interesting.  I like the CSS layout features.
17:03 < AMH_bob> I've barely scratched the surface, but it looks rock solid (as as far as cross-browsing javascript goes), the examples are nice and the documentation is OK.
17:05 < SDuensin> I've been interested in playing with this one:   http://qooxdoo.org/
17:15 < AMH_bob> Wow, that one looks pretty! http://demo.qooxdoo.org/current/showcase/
17:20 < SDuensin> Yea.  I like it.  Only reason I don't use it already is that my "WebOS" (I hate that term) project doesn't want to put any logic in the browser.
17:22 < AMH_bob> YUI is BSD-license and QOOXDOO is LGPL    -   that's a big plus for both of them
17:23 < SDuensin> Yea.  I'm GPL because of the toolkit I use.  Still, that's not bad - you don't have to open the apps you write to run on my system.
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17:30 < AMH_bob> WebOS, as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_operating_system ?
17:31 < ckotil> SDuensin: you use pxe boot?
17:31 < ckotil> for the WebOS that is.
17:32 < SDuensin> No.  It's a Windows-like environment for writing applications that run inside your browser.
17:33 < ckotil> o
17:33 < SDuensin> http://zkdesktop.sourceforge.net
17:33 < ckotil> here i am thinking that you will load an OS via the web to a machine
17:36 < SDuensin> Whoo - just added myself to:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_desktop
17:44 < AMH_bob> Wow, a lot of people working on the WebOS front...
17:44 < SDuensin> No kidding.
17:45 < SDuensin> Like I said, ours is a bit different since you don't do anything client-side.  The apps are written just like a desktop app.
17:46 < AMH_bob> It sounds like a difficult market to be in... does it pay the bills?
17:47 < SDuensin> We use it internally at work.  They were nice enough to let me open it.
17:47 < SDuensin> I'll likely use it for some more personal projects, but it's not something I aim to sell.  At least, not any time soon.
17:48 < SDuensin> If you download it and make it run, it's neat.  However, it doesn't actually *do* anything since all our apps for it are proprietary.  :-)
17:57 < AMH_bob> It looks like my main project for the next year will be WebGUI all the way, no side tracks (except for cool stuff that WebGUI happens to use)
17:58 < SDuensin> I'm doing a LOT of WebGUI, too.  Just not at my "real" job.
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18:12 < AMH_bob> Time to go home, cya!
18:12 < SDuensin> Bye!
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18:19 < SDuensin> Morning, bopbop 
18:20 < bopbop> morning
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18:35 < SDuensin> Oooo!   Ubuntu "Feisty Fawn" is out!
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18:41 <@vayde> It rocks too!
18:41 < SDuensin> :-)
18:42 < SDuensin> Hey MrHairgrease 
18:42 < SDuensin> I'm running my Update Manager now.  <G>
18:42 <+MrHairgrease> hi
18:42 <+MrHairgrease> what's a update manager?
18:43 < SDuensin> <SDuensin> Oooo!   Ubuntu "Feisty Fawn" is out!
18:43 <@vayde> Lemme know how that goes
18:43 < SDuensin> Yea, it'll be a good test.  I'm using Kubuntu.  :-)
18:43 <@vayde> I've had bad luck with it, but I was using sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
18:44 <+MrHairgrease> cool
18:44 <@vayde> breezy ->dapper went badly, but that probably had alot ot do with the crazy hacks I had going in breezy
18:45 < SDuensin> hehe
18:45 <+MrHairgrease> I might try to dist-upgrade my laptop sunday
18:45 < SDuensin> I figure it can't go any worse than XP->Vista.  :-)
18:45 <+MrHairgrease> if I have the time
18:46 <@vayde> yeah, set the bar low enough, even a lame tortoise can jump over it
18:46 < SDuensin> hehehe
18:54 < SDuensin> "Update Manager" downloaded a "Distribution Upgrade" tool that is now doing the work.
18:57 < SDuensin> WHOA!  Removing 2 packages.  72 new packages.  *758* to upgrade.  659 meg.
18:57 <+MrHairgrease> small packages
18:58 < SDuensin> Yea.
18:59 <+MrHairgrease> that's downloaded in what? 4 minutes or so
18:59 < SDuensin> Not over my cellular modem.
18:59 <+MrHairgrease> it is over my 100 mbit line
18:59 <+MrHairgrease> =)
19:00 < SDuensin> It's looking bad for actually finishing while I'm at work.
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> woot
19:01 <+MrHairgrease> the ateam is on tv!
19:02  * MrHairgrease loves it when plans come together
19:02 < SDuensin> I pitty the fool who doesn't like Murdock.
19:02 <+MrHairgrease> mudsucker!
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22:34 <@vayde> SDuensin, how'd the upgrade go?
22:39 < SDuensin> It's still (slowly) going.  The update servers must be being slammed.
23:21 <@vayde> they are, as far as I can tell.  the download ones are toast.
23:22 < SDuensin> I'm doing this in a VM.  Going to be brave (or stupid) and suspend it and try to resume it when I get home.
23:22 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI needs more bandwidth!
23:22 <@vayde> wow.  
23:23 <@vayde> well, I'll be interested in how it goes
23:23 <+MrHairgrease> pd: why
23:23 <+MrHairgrease> you have a gbit line at home?
23:23 <+perlDreamer> because the update and download servers are "toast".
23:23 <@vayde> no, that's for Ubuntu Feisty
23:23 <+MrHairgrease> ubuntu's are
23:24 <@vayde> Just came out today, and there's a rush
23:24 <+perlDreamer> well, in that case...
23:24 <+perlDreamer> why aren't yall using torrents?
23:24 <@vayde> Good thing I installed on Sunday
23:25  * SDuensin is trying it via the Update Manager.
23:26 <@vayde> I have a buddy that wants to upgrade yesterday.  Hopefully I can recommend that to him
23:26 <@vayde> I went for clean install.
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> speking of ubuntu
23:27 <+MrHairgrease>  i have a wre for 6.10 compiled and tarred 
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> maybe it should be put on sf
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23:30 <@vayde> cool.  
23:30 <@vayde> we should talk about that sometime
23:30 <@vayde> I have to teach everyone ow to compile PHP into the WRE in october
23:31 <@vayde> and that's 3 things I'm not qualified to teach yet.  PHP, WRE, and compiling stuff.
23:31 < SDuensin> Who in the wha?   PHP for what?
23:31 <@vayde> PHP in the WRE
23:31 <@vayde> apparently it's possible
23:31 < SDuensin> What is going to use PHP?
23:31 <@vayde> nothing officially
23:32 <@vayde> I just have to be able to explain how to do it if you want to
23:32 < xdanger> just install it some where different and use the front proxy
23:32 < SDuensin> Yea.  What xdanger said.
23:32 <@vayde> used through assetProxy I think
23:32 <+MrHairgrease> no
23:32 <@vayde> hmm.  I think rizen wants instructions on how to put it in the wre proper, if folks are interested in doing such a thing
23:32 < SDuensin> If it uses autoconf, do:  ./configure --prefix=/data/wre/prereqs/php; make; make install
23:33 <+MrHairgrease> you should use mod_proxy
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> who can put the wre for ubuntu 6.10 online?
23:35 <@vayde> JT, probably Jamie too, but I don't know if he comes here ever
23:35 <+MrHairgrease> i'll send jt an email
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23:36 <@vayde> He'll be so pleased, the big guy will tear up.
23:37 <+MrHairgrease> I know
23:38 <+MrHairgrease> I'm good with people =)
23:48 < SDuensin> "I'm a people person, dammit!"
23:48 <@vayde> Hey, I like people...
23:48 <@vayde> I like to hit them
23:48  * SDuensin is headed home.  Later all!
23:49 <+MrHairgrease> later
23:49 <@vayde> bye
23:49 <+MrHairgrease> I like people to buy me beer
23:49 <+MrHairgrease> to each his own
23:49 -!- SDuensin [n=Scott@198.sub-75-207-169.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:49 <@vayde> oh, they buy beer...
23:49 <@vayde> before, after, whatever
23:49 <+MrHairgrease> ic
23:50 <+MrHairgrease> the wuc's gonna be very interesting i think
23:50 <@vayde> I'm gonna ask everyone to be nice, or if they have to be hostile, please keep their assaults on the physical level
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> I'm more verbally oriented
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> as i said
23:51 <@vayde> dammit.  I'm less prepared there
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> it's gonna be an interesting wuc
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02:13 < cap10morgan> so let's say you were going to hook a CRM into WebGUI (which I'm doing this summer) and you wanted a single sign-on between the two...
02:13 < cap10morgan> how would you pass auth credentials from WebGUI over to the CRM?
02:14 < cap10morgan> i'm trying to come up w/ a list of options to compare
02:14 <+perlDreamer> There was a thread just posted about that on the PB boards.
02:14 < cap10morgan> oh yeah?
02:14 < cap10morgan> killer
02:15 <+perlDreamer> I think it was the dev board, but SSO was in the title.
02:15 < cap10morgan> cool, thanks pd
02:22 < cap10morgan> hmm, that's not really advanced enough for what i'm trying to do
02:22 < cap10morgan> ideally there'd be a way to send some sort of session token over to the remote app that it turns around and verifies w/ webgui
02:23 <+perlDreamer> hmmm....
02:23 < cap10morgan> so webgui would say, "hey, this user has an active session" and the remote app would say, "oh yeah? we'll see about that" before doing anything.
02:23 <+perlDreamer> There is a user named Isaac
02:23 <+perlDreamer> He talked with rizen on the customer support boards about that
02:23 <+perlDreamer> using a cookie for auth
02:24 < cap10morgan> are these the custom support boards that i don't have access to? :)
02:25 <+perlDreamer> Probably, but check the dev board as well.
02:25 <+perlDreamer> I didn't know that you don't have access to them.
02:26 < cap10morgan> oh, well, i just assumed they were the paid support forums
02:26 < cap10morgan> but maybe that's not right
02:27 < cap10morgan> i know there was some forum i didn't have access to that was showing up in my search results, but this months ago
02:27 < cap10morgan> probably pre-7.0
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02:39 < cap10morgan> hmm, couldn't find it
02:39 < SDuensin> "Did ya look behind the fridge?  It's almost always behind the fridge!"
02:41 < cap10morgan> i guess i could add something to the webgui and/or ldap auth modules that created a hash of the password and the current time to a certain precision that could be requested via the API (i.e. the login cookie)
02:41 < cap10morgan> and then have a separate standard method that verified these cookies
02:41 < cap10morgan> for given usernames
02:42 < cap10morgan> and then beg rizen to make it a standard method for auth subclasses :)
02:43 < cap10morgan> the verification method would always return false if the webgui session had expired
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03:52 <+Radix-wrk> morning peeps
03:59 < SDuensin> Hi Radix-wrk 
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04:31 < PedersenMJ> good evening
04:40 < SDuensin> Hey PedersenMJ 
04:40 < PedersenMJ> Heya SD. How's things?
04:40 < SDuensin> Not bad!   Yourself?
04:41 < PedersenMJ> Doing decent. Bit sluggish, having a hard time motivating myself to do webgui stuff, or my other big project (autorealm, ftr)
04:42 < SDuensin> I know how that is.  I wrote web service code all day.  Whee.
04:43 < PedersenMJ> I spent the day repackaging software so we could deploy it using active directory. And I expect to do much of the same for the next two days, at least.
04:43 < PedersenMJ> So, actually, I envy you.
04:43 < SDuensin> hehehe
04:45 < PedersenMJ> Don't get me wrong, I know we need it, badly. I've been there for nearly two years, and just got permission to get a patch management system going at the end of February. And it's going to take me until sometime in June to complete all of this work.
04:46 < SDuensin> I'm migrating old ASP and ASP.NET apps to my ZKDesktop platform.
04:46 < PedersenMJ> But this is boring work. And it's damned near impossible to get much motivation to do something more right now.
04:47 < PedersenMJ> Herm, zkdesktop looks interesting.
04:52 < PedersenMJ> Something else I read today that I thought you all might like: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/MeaningleBneB.aspx
05:00 < SDuensin> OOo - I'm going to save that WTF for my morning reading.  I hit that site every day.  :-)
05:01 < SDuensin> ZKDesktop is an interesting project.  I love that my company let me open source it.
05:01 < PedersenMJ> As do I. Though I go for the later in the day viewing, normally.
05:08 < SDuensin> The architecture of our app is really robust, but it's really kinda overkill, too.  Takes a long time to get things done...
05:10 < SDuensin> Browser->ZKDesktop->JSON Web Service->C# Business Logic->iBATIS Object Relational Mapper->SQL 2005 Stored Procedure->FINALLY the Data!
05:10 < PedersenMJ> I hear ya. It's part of why I'm abandoning C++ for AutoRealm. The goal: Make it so that any piece can be made in about 2 hours, with little or no prior work being done in the system. The reality: It takes me 6 to 8 hours to complete *one* module.
05:11 < SDuensin> I'm guessing your AutoRealm isn't the free RPG mapping system Google found for me.  :-)
05:12 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it is.
05:12 < PedersenMJ> I'm working on the rewrite.
05:13 < SDuensin> Oh!  Cool!
05:13 < PedersenMJ> But C++... I like the power of the language. But the complexity of doing simple things was just bogging me down too much.
05:13 < SDuensin> My new side project is a 3D game.  :-)
05:14 < SDuensin> So what are you going to rewrite it in?
05:14 < PedersenMJ> Believe it or not, Python.
05:15 < SDuensin> I've only toyed with Python.  The enforced white space annoys me.
05:15 < PedersenMJ> Specifically, Python, using wxWidgets (http://www.wxpython.org/ ).
05:15 < SDuensin> The latest thing I've been playing with that has me pretty impressed is Java + the Eclipse RCP.
05:15 < PedersenMJ> It does me, too. But the rest of the toolkit and language gives enough benefits that I'm forcing myself to ignore how annoyed I am by it :)
05:16 < SDuensin> Just a few months ago I was Mr. Anti-Java.  After working in it for a bit, I love it!
05:16 < PedersenMJ> Java is nice, very much so. Eclipse, too. If I find myself going back to it, I'll be using Eclipse, definitely.
05:17 < SDuensin> The RCP is their "Rich Client Platform".  Combined with the Visual Editor, you can create Eclipse-like apps pretty easily.
05:19 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. It's too bad that the one time I tried it, I found myself ticked off about the poor C++ support (yes, it's there, but it felt like it was a second class citizen). So, after that experience, I realized use Eclipse for Java, and something else for, well, anything else :)
05:19 < SDuensin> Pretty much, yea.  I used it once for a C project.  Was just "ok".
05:21 < PedersenMJ> Exactly. Everybody who uses it for Java seems to love it, though.
05:22 < PedersenMJ> For me, I want to find (but haven't yet) a good Python IDE for OSX that gives me vim or vi-like editing modes. It's driving me crazy. And vim is good, but for Python, it lacks a bit.
05:25 < SDuensin> OSX!
05:26 < PedersenMJ> yes?
05:26 < SDuensin> BEST!  OS!  EVER!
05:26  * SDuensin is on a loaded MacBook Pro.
05:27 < PedersenMJ> I'm working on saving up for a maxed out MBP (17", 3G, etc, etc)
05:29 < SDuensin> That's what I got.  200G drive, AppleCare, wireless MightyMouse.  Just topped 4k.
05:29 < SDuensin> (And I don't recommend the mouse.)
05:32 < PedersenMJ> Well, we're also talking about doing a Mac Pro for a media center machine, so for that, I'll probably still get the wireless mouse.
05:33 < SDuensin> Buy someone elses mouse.  Really.  For example...
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05:34 < SDuensin> Basic things like being able to pick the mouse up while dragging to reposition it.  Can't do it on the Mighty Mouse.
05:35 < PedersenMJ> Herm? Why not?
05:36 < SDuensin> The way the "buttons" work cause the entire shell of the mouse to rock.  If you lift it, it's no longer rocked against the switches and you lose the click.
05:36 < SDuensin> It's also picky about having your fingers rest on it when you're doing both right and left clicks.
05:37 < SDuensin> Squeezing it to "middle click" is kind of awkward, too.
05:37 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay. Definitely will find a better alternative, then.
05:37 < SDuensin> Aside from that, I *do* like it.  It doesn't feel as good as my MS Laser Mouse (VERY nice), but it's not bad.
05:38 < SDuensin> For serious work, I'll be using my MS Bluetooth mouse.
05:38 < PedersenMJ> Personal favorite is an older (no longer made) Logitech mouse. Big hands, and this is one of the few mice that fit well.
05:39 < PedersenMJ> Hey, any chance you know where to download a prebuilt pygtk for osx?
05:39 < SDuensin> See if you can find a Best Buy or someplace that has the wireless MS Laser mice on display.  I really like it.  I've used it every single day for almost a year and it just now started to warn me about needing new batteries.
05:40 < SDuensin> Darwin Ports?  Fink?
05:40 < PedersenMJ> They had it, but it didn't work for pida, unfortunately.
05:40 < SDuensin> Compare that battery life to my coworkers with rechargeable Logitechs that die if they forget to cradle them every night.
05:41 < SDuensin> Hmm.  Lemme look around real fast.
05:41 < PedersenMJ> The one I'm talking about was a wired mouse, so I never had battery issues to worry about.
05:44 < SDuensin> This is what I have at work and I love it:   http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=049
05:44 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I've seen that one in stores on occasion, and tried it out. Seemed pretty decent at the time, too.
05:46 < SDuensin> Does pygtk on OS X need X11?
05:47 < PedersenMJ> Most likely it does. I was trying to avoid using that, though. I really am not fond of the X11 apps I've used so far under OSX.
05:48 < SDuensin> I use it for GIMP Shop and Inkscape.  Both rock.
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Meh. It feels uncomfortable to use an X11 app on OSX. I'm glad it's there, but would prefer to use native.
05:50 < SDuensin> I agree.  Still, being able to use Inkscape made life MUCH easier for me tonight when I was mapping out my game.
05:50  * SDuensin doesn't know if AutoRealm would work.  :-)
05:50 < PedersenMJ> Right now, no, it wouldn't.
05:51 < SDuensin> I drew up an old school adventure game map.  All boxes and lines.  :-)
05:52 < PedersenMJ> When next release can finally be done, though, it will, I think. I've still got some bases to cover to ensure certain standards can be held with python (for example: can I read xml files at a sufficient speed that large files will work well? Can I generate large numbers of random numbers using a PRNG written entirely in python, and do it with sufficient speed?
05:52 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... Just got an idea for home that might help me out. Idling for a minute.
05:53 < SDuensin> k
05:58 < SDuensin> This help?   http://gtk-osx.sourceforge.net/
05:58  * SDuensin has to run.  I'll be back tomorrow!   Night!
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06:22 < PedersenMJ> Sweet. I finally have a work space set up for me in my house :)
06:24 <@vayde> ahh, a place of your own
06:28 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. First time in over 3 years that I've had a workspace I could actually feel comfy in.
06:29 <@vayde> wow.  you win for patience
06:29 <+Radix-wrk> my workspace is usually set up before my bedroom is
06:30 < PedersenMJ> Moved in with my then girlfriend 3 years ago. The place we moved into didn't have a good workspace. There was the attic, but we had too much stuff in it, and it was too hot. Now, she's my wife, we've bought our house, and I've got a decent place in what will be our library once we've got it all cleaned up.
06:30 <@vayde> excellent.  congrats
06:31 <@vayde> I hope to have a house again someday.  My ex took mine.
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. Working on a couch sucked.
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Ah, ouch. That *really* sucks.
06:31 <@vayde> depends on the couch I guess.  I'm pretty happy with the one under me right now.
06:32 < PedersenMJ> I got lucky with my ex (yes, married once, divorced, and am now married again). My ex wanted to buy a house, but I was not ready. Glad I wasn't, since she would've taken it, and handed me the mortgage payment.
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Allow me to amend my statement: working on couch, and *no* table, sucks. TV trays are too high up to work at for an extended period.
06:39 <+Radix-wrk> divorces suck - I agree
06:40 <+Radix-wrk> been there, done that, lost the house
06:40 < PedersenMJ> I got lucky: No house, no kids, no debt (neither of us had a credit rating that would let us incur debt).
06:41 < PedersenMJ> And, when we came to actual divorce time, I had moved 2000 miles, filed in the new state, and was making less than her. She couldn't even *try* for alimony.
06:42 <+Radix-wrk> I got done by a stupid divorce system that biased her simply because she had two kids from different fathers, couldn't work, and that was regarded as my fault - so she got half the house she never paid a cent for.
06:43 <+Radix-wrk> I got to keep my superannuation though
06:44 <+Radix-wrk> personally tho, I was just glad it was over :)
06:44 < PedersenMJ> Damn. Sounds like she screwed you with a baseball. Which had rusty nails. And no lube.
06:45 < PedersenMJ> s/baseball/baseball bat/
06:45 <+Radix-wrk> it's just a stupid divorce system really
06:46 <+Radix-wrk> housewife = full time wage as far as the gov is concerned
06:46 <+Radix-wrk> regardless of whether the kids are mine or not
06:48 < PedersenMJ> Well, at least the gov't recognizes it as valuable there. Even though it does screw over people like you. Here in the states, it's rather looked down upon.
06:48 <+Radix-wrk> anyway.. depressing subject.. lets move on ;)
06:49 < PedersenMJ> Okay. Hey, know of any good references material on building watercooling systems?
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06:50 < PedersenMJ> I'm working on a different kind of case for my servers here at home, and watercool seems like a much better idea in this case than air cooling, provided I can learn how to make a decent one.
06:50 <+Radix-wrk> http://www.overclockers.com.au/wiki/Extreme_Cooling
06:53 <+Radix-wrk> lot of guys using watercooling in oz - things get pretty hot over here during summer :)
06:53 < PedersenMJ> Thank you. Bookmarking it now :)
06:54 < PedersenMJ> Not going to be overclocking, but I *am* going to build a single case that will hold 3 (maybe 4) motherboards and their peripherals.
06:55 <+Radix-wrk> you'll want some decent cooling then
06:56 < PedersenMJ> Exactly. And, since the closet it's going into happens to have fixtures for washer and dryer, water cooling seems like it could be the right way to go.
06:57 <+Radix-wrk> never gone for watercooling myself - but I knew several ppl who have
07:01 < PedersenMJ> Now, of course, I'm only mildly crazy. I'm *not* going to making my own watercooling blocks. But, I can find out what to get, work on how to handle water distribution, etc.
07:11 < PedersenMJ> Hey, Radix-wrk 
07:12 < PedersenMJ> whereabouts do you live again? I'm installing X-Plane, and wonder what the town will look like in it.
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08:37 <+Radix-wrk> heh
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15:51 < SDuensin> Good morning all!
15:51 < ckotil> hello
15:52 < SDuensin> Hey ckotil 
16:04 < AMH_bob> Hi SDuensin, ckotil and all
16:04  * SDuensin is *still* upgrading Ubuntu.
16:13 < AMH_bob> Have you lost that SIGTERM error yet?
16:15 < SDuensin> Yes!  I found it!
16:15 < SDuensin> It was being caused by wremonitor checking the wrong IP address of my multi-homed server.
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16:32 < AMH_bob> Glad to head you solved it.
16:34 < SDuensin> Me too!  :-)
16:35 <+MrHairgrease> sduensin
16:36 <+MrHairgrease> just just upgraded 7.04
16:37 < SDuensin> Me too.  It finally finished.  :-)
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16:39 <+MrHairgrease> the servers were pretty slow
16:39 < SDuensin> Took me all day and all night to get it all.
16:39 <+MrHairgrease> but it took oonly about 3 or 4 hours to download al 890 or so packages
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> and it crashed in the final phase
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> before reboot
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> rebooted myself
16:40 <+MrHairgrease> everything seems fine
16:41 < SDuensin> Mine went smooth.  No idea why it took so long to download it - my connection isn't that slow.
16:41 <+MrHairgrease> mine neither
16:42 <+MrHairgrease> but all the server are just being almmed
16:42 <+MrHairgrease> slammed
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17:04 <@vayde> Has anyone noticed a problem with the wG svn repository?
17:05 <+MrHairgrease> no
17:05 <+MrHairgrease> but I haven't done any checkouts lately
17:05 <+MrHairgrease> the webinterface still works though
17:06 <@vayde> Hmm.  wierd.  problem is on my end then.
17:06 <@vayde> yeah, that works for me too.
17:06 <+MrHairgrease> are you using the coirrect url?
17:06 <@vayde> I keep getting 405 Methohd Not Allowed
17:06 <+MrHairgrease> ok
17:06 <+MrHairgrease> let me check it out
17:06 <+MrHairgrease> i'll have to do a co anyways
17:06 <@vayde> https://svn.webgui.org/svnroot/WebGUI
17:07 <+MrHairgrease> that's wrong
17:07 <@vayde> It worked fine last week
17:07 <+MrHairgrease> it should contain plainblack in there somewhere
17:07 <@vayde> hmm.
17:07 <@vayde> I'm still fumbling around with subversion.  
17:07 <+MrHairgrease> do you read the devlist?
17:07 <+MrHairgrease> the correct url is:
17:07 <+MrHairgrease> https://svn.webgui.org/plainblack/WebGUI
17:08 <@vayde> not yet.  where is it?
17:08 <+MrHairgrease> see jt's post: reorganizing svn
17:08 <@vayde> ahh.  there we go
17:08 <+MrHairgrease> april 13th
17:10 <@vayde> yeah, I suppose I should look there more often.  
17:10 <@vayde> I've been so focused...
17:10  * vayde kicks himself
17:10 < SDuensin> Hey vayde - upgrade of Ubuntu went very smoothly.
17:16 <@vayde> excellent
17:16 <@vayde> I knew they would smooth it out sooner or later
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17:28 < SDuensin> Morning, rizen 
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17:42 <@rizen> howdy
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> hi
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19:29 <@rizen> volunteers anyone?
19:29 <@rizen> there are a number of assets and subsystems in the WebGUI core that need to be refactored
19:29 <@rizen> i'm finding that i don't have enough time to get them all done
19:29 <@rizen> perlDreamer has already volunteered to refactor the survey engine
19:30 <@rizen> i'm wondering if there is anyone else that would consider doing that
19:30 <@rizen> i'm going to be drafting a specification for perlDreamer to work from
19:30 <@rizen> and i'd do the same for you as well
19:30 <@rizen> any takers?
19:30 < ckotil> while i do have a bit of free time, i wouldntt know where to start
19:31 <@rizen> you wouldn't know where to start cuz you don't know what needs to be done, or because you don't know perl?
19:31 < ckotil> the latter
19:32 <@rizen> ah
19:32 <+perlDreamer> we can help you there, ckotil
19:32 <@rizen> yeah, you need to know perl to do this
19:32 < ckotil> heh
19:32 <+perlDreamer> real time support over IRC
19:32 <+perlDreamer> dev email list
19:32 <+perlDreamer> JT's private phone number
19:32 <+perlDreamer> the whole 9 yards
19:32 < ckotil> i mean... i get by, but im not very good
19:32 <+perlDreamer> Dude, you're already writing workflows
19:32 < perlmonkey2> volunteers?  refactoring?  Do I get to put my name in the Authors file :D
19:33 <@rizen> yes you do
19:33 < perlmonkey2> I'm very familiar with POE
19:33 < ckotil> pd: true, but they rarely work as intended
19:34 < perlmonkey2> What kind of refactoring?  removing duplicate functionality?
19:34 <@rizen> unfortunately, there's nothing near the top of the priority list that has to do with POE
19:34 < ckotil> i still see POE errors in my logs when i have a pending workflow.
19:34 < ckotil> err. pending versiontag
19:34 <@rizen> the refactoring that needs to be done is about improving usability, and adding features
19:35 <@rizen> ckotil, that's probably a bug that needs to be fixed, not a complete refactoring of a subsystem
19:35 < ckotil> k.
19:35 <@rizen> perlmonkey, for example, the SQL Report asset needs an SQL builder wizard function, it needs graphing added to it, and some other clean up work
19:36 < perlmonkey2> Are these functions specced out, or should I just figure out how to add the functionality?
19:36 <@rizen> perlmonkey, if you saw the old events calendar, and now see the new calendar, then you'll understand what i'm talking about
19:36 < perlmonkey2> I've only seen the new one.
19:36 <@rizen> i would spec out anything  you wanted to work on
19:37 <@rizen> there are lots of subsystems that need some work too, but they are less critical than the assets that need an overhauling
19:37 <@rizen> so let's start with assets
19:37 < perlmonkey2> Okay....I have some grant work I need to wrap up this afternoon.  You pick some low hanging fruit to break me in easy and I'll start on it tonight.
19:38 <@rizen> the assets that need work are: sql report, survey, web services client, event management system, project management & time tracking, wiki
19:38 <@rizen> and the dataform/sql form need to be replaced by an entirely new asset
19:39 <@rizen> which of those sounds most interesting to you?
19:40 <@rizen> also...i won't be ready for you tonight. i'll spec out the new stuff over the weekend, and give you a document to work from starting on monday
19:40 < perlmonkey2> survey.....we use the survey here and I would love to add some more functionality :D
19:41 <@rizen> in that case, perlDreamer, can i switch you to SQL report?
19:41 < perlmonkey2> In fact we are landing a massive new number of NIH grants and will be doing a LOT more work with the survey asset.
19:41 <+perlDreamer> I can hop to something else
19:41 <@rizen> sweet
19:41 <+perlDreamer> but you know my JS/CSS fu is poor
19:41 < ckotil> perlmonkey2: what do you do with the NIH?
19:41 < ckotil> national institute of health right?
19:41 <@rizen> alright guys, i'll get to work on drafting up these specs
19:42  * perlmonkey2 has mad JS-fu but CSS-fu is still grasshoppa.
19:42 < perlmonkey2> ckotil: yep
19:42 <@rizen> and pd, there's no better way to learn than to jump in
19:42 <@rizen> =)
19:42 < perlmonkey2> ckotil: I work for a research center which works on several NIH/NSF grants.
19:42 < ckotil> nice.
19:42 <+perlDreamer> there's a lot of government usage of wG
19:43 <+perlDreamer> seems like a lot
19:43 <@rizen> if there's anybody else that's interested, please let me know here or email me via jt at plainblack dot com
19:43 < ckotil> at oklahoma eh?
19:43 <@rizen> i'm going to lunch, be back in a bit
19:43 <+perlDreamer> rizen: you can always drop a note on the dev list, too
19:43 < perlmonkey2> yeah, I love it here....work on campus and with psychologists which seem the coolest discipline of people.
19:43 <@rizen> good idea
19:43 < ckotil> im at indiana university, at the grnoc. making sure things run smooth on internet2
19:43 < perlmonkey2> ckotil: how did you know that?
19:43 < ckotil> your hostname ;-)
19:44 < perlmonkey2> oh...heh....Indiana....sounds like FUN.
19:44 < ckotil> i like it here.
19:44 < perlmonkey2> later rizen:
19:44 < SDuensin> Howdy, neighbor! 
19:44 < ckotil> going on 5 years. graduated last spring
19:44  * SDuensin is in Illinois.
19:45 < perlmonkey2> ckotil: I'm thinking of starting school this summer.  We'll see what's being offered.
19:45 < ckotil> will the university foot the bill?
19:45 < ckotil> IU will pay for 3 credits a semester
19:45 < perlmonkey2> ckotil: Yep :)  MS for nothing and the clicks (it rhymed) for free.
19:46 < ckotil> and the reason i was intriqued when you said nih, is that they seem to be the most consistent active user of Internet2
19:46 < perlmonkey2> OU pays for 6 hours, but doesn't cover fees, which are substantial.
19:46 < ckotil> hehe
19:46 < ckotil> yah. got to love vista for $15
19:47 < perlmonkey2> If I say I'll use it to do some work at home, I can get access to almost all of the MS product line.  I haven't used that at all.  
19:48 < perlmonkey2> NIH uses internet2?  They push a lot of data around between sites?
19:48 < SDuensin> I don't gotta love Vista for anything.  :-P
19:48 < ckotil> lunch.
19:49  * perlmonkey2 skips lunch to work on NIH so they'll have more data to push around on the internet2.
19:49 < perlmonkey2> or maybe just because I waste to much time chatting on IRC :P
19:52 <+perlDreamer> Here's one for all you Ubuntu geeks: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130923-page,1-c,linux/article.html
19:53  * SDuensin already has all 7 tips covered.  :-)
20:09 <@rizen> ckotil
20:10 < ckotil> rizen: 
20:10 <@rizen> since you have volunteered, even though you shot down your own skills, would you mind if i work on coming up with a small project for you?
20:10 < ckotil> I'm game. that sounds fine
20:10 <@rizen> i don't want to overwhelm you, but we can always use more good contributors
20:11 < ckotil> of course
20:11 <@rizen> ok, i'll work on a spec for you this weekend as well.
20:11 <@rizen> thanks
20:11 < ckotil> np
20:16 <@rizen> ckotil, how are your javascript skills?
20:21 < ckotil> basic.
20:22 < ckotil> http://pheezer.uits.iupui.edu/i2netproxy/ is about the extent of my js skills
20:23 < ckotil> i guess i can pretty much make the DOM my bitch
20:23 <@rizen> ok
20:24 <@rizen> i'll keep that in mind
20:24 <@rizen> i have about 10 ideas for small projects for you alredady
20:24 <@rizen> already
20:24 < ckotil> haha
20:24 < ckotil> ok
20:26 <+perlDreamer> rizen thinks big
20:26 <+perlDreamer> all the time
20:27 < SDuensin> Make the Domme your bitch?  Isn't that backwards?
20:28 < ckotil> is it?
20:29  * SDuensin sighs.  You people and your sheltered lives!
20:29 < SDuensin> (I also recommend not googling that term while at work.)
20:29 < ckotil> heh
20:29 < ckotil> i smell what you're baking now
20:30 < ckotil> i dominate the dominatricies
20:30 < SDuensin> :-P
20:30 < SDuensin> I didn't spell DOM wrong on accident!
20:36 <+perlDreamer> lunch
21:54 < perlmonkey2> Is there a dev.plainblack.com equiv?
21:56 <@rizen> you mean a place where developers work?
21:56 <@rizen> or something else?
21:57 < perlmonkey2> Some place to look at tickets.
21:57 < perlmonkey2> or specs
21:57 <@rizen> oh, if you go to plainblack.com/rfe and plainblack.com/bugs you can see the stuff people have requested
21:57 < perlmonkey2> Really just wondering how developers collaborate?  Btw, my PB uid is perlm in case you want to message me the specs.
21:57 < perlmonkey2> okay..cool.
21:58 <@rizen> but i'm going to draw up a separate design document for you for the survey
21:58 <@rizen> you'll be able to add in your own stuff too...we can collaborate back and forth before you start
21:58 <@rizen> but i want to give you an idea of what i'm looking for, and that's what that design doc will do
21:59 <@rizen> in general, devs collaborate on the dev mailing list or here
21:59 < perlmonkey2> This sounds like it is going to be fun.  I'm the only dev here, so I'm starved for dev interaction.
21:59 <@rizen> cool
21:59 < perlmonkey2> here == my job.
21:59 <@rizen> rfight
21:59 <@rizen> right
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22:25 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: wre?
22:25 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: WRE?
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00:49 < cap10morgan> I'm trying to write a help file
00:50 < cap10morgan> and at one point I'm saying 'name' => 'page.var.[var_name]'
00:50 <+perlDreamer> I don't think it will like the brackets there
00:50 <+perlDreamer> use some other character
00:50 <+perlDreamer> __VAR_NAME__
00:50 < cap10morgan> ok, i'll try that
00:50 <+perlDreamer> You can check the Collab System Help file for an example
00:51 <+perlDreamer> in the userDefined variables
00:53 < cap10morgan> yep, that did it. thanks pD
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01:29 <@rizen> hmm
01:29 <@rizen> forgot to ask perlmonkey2 what his email addy is
01:29 <@rizen> so i could send him the design doc
01:30 <@rizen> oh wait, he said he's perlm on the site
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02:42 < SDuensin> Good evening!
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03:50  * perlmonkey2 wonders if beer or aspirin is better for a headache.
03:54 <@rizen> methinks perhaps a bullet to the head
03:54 <@rizen> it would permanently alleviate any headache
03:54 <@rizen> =)
03:54 <@rizen> but if you don't have that, then asprin
03:54 <@rizen> because the beer...at least too much beer...will cure your headache now, but give you a bigger one in the morning
03:55 <@rizen> =)
03:57 < SDuensin> Skip the beer.  Go for something harder.  :-)
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04:09 < perlmonkey2> I'm going with the beer......I have work to do my drunken monkey style is worthy of 70's kung-fu theatre.
04:09 < perlmonkey2> Although the bullet to the head idea, is a close 2nd.
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05:51 <@rizen> perlmonkey2, you going to be around for a couple minutes?
05:52 <@rizen> almost done with your specs doc
05:58 <@rizen> its away
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06:50 <@rizen> so as i was saying, vayde is a big fat liar
06:50 <@rizen> oh...sorry vayde..didn't see you there
06:51 < perlmonkey2> I'm here now.
06:51 <@vayde> eh?
06:51 <@rizen> i emailed you the document
06:51 <@vayde> liar too, but big and fat?  
06:51 < perlmonkey2> kewl
06:52  * perlmonkey2 needs to print out that email as his very first corrospondance one a major person in the FOSS community.
06:53 < perlmonkey2> s/one/with/
06:53 <@rizen> i'm not a major person in the FOSS community
06:53 <@rizen> just a blip on the radar
06:53 <@rizen> but ok..i'll take it
06:53 <@rizen> =)
06:53 < perlmonkey2> WebGUI is kind of a big deal.
06:54 < perlmonkey2> =)
06:54 <@rizen> in the CMS world it's kinda big
06:54 <@rizen> but in the greater open source world
06:54 <@rizen> it's no where as big as bsd, linux, mysql, apache, or firefox
06:55 < perlmonkey2> In a FOSS org chart, you'd be closer to the top than the bottom.....so like a said, a major person :)
06:55 <@rizen> ok then...i'll shut up now
06:56 <@rizen> i wonder who would be at the top of the FOSS org chart
06:56 <@rizen> or if there even is a top
06:57 <@rizen> there are so many people who are important for such different reasons
06:57 < perlmonkey2> My gut instinct in Linus, because I've met Stallman and he struct me as too (what is a polite way to say crazy).
06:57 < perlmonkey2> Good point.  
06:57 <@rizen> i've seen stallman in person, though i haven't met him, and he is not an impressive person
06:58 <@rizen> linus is very important, but i think that ESR is just as important
06:58 <@rizen> he wrote the first definitive book Cathedral and the Bazaar
06:58 <@rizen> he helped write serveral open source licenses
06:58 < perlmonkey2> I really need to read that book.
06:59 <@rizen> served as the head of the open source foundation
06:59 <@rizen> and a bunch of other stuff
06:59 <@rizen> it's a pretty good book
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06:59 < perlmonkey2> You ever notice that ESR kind of looks like Larry Wall?
07:00 <@rizen> i've never actually seen ESR
07:00 <@rizen> i've met larry though
07:00 <@rizen> he's a really nice guy
07:00 <@rizen> but a horrible public speaker
07:00 <@rizen> =)
07:00 < perlmonkey2> I'd love to meet Larry Wall.  
07:00 < perlmonkey2> Definetely one of my heroes.
07:01 <@rizen> he's very strange...
07:01 <@rizen> if i had to describe him, i'd say he's a cross of
07:01 <@rizen> a hippy + fred rogers + einstein
07:01 < perlmonkey2> Hah, what a great combination.
07:03 <@rizen> haarg, you're on late
07:03 < perlmonkey2> You are a pretty good public speaker.  I've listened to you on Perlcast :)
07:03 <@rizen> i'm ok...but it is something i aspire to be...a good public speaker
07:03 <@rizen> i want to be a great public speaker at some point..
07:03 < perlmonkey2> Not something I bet most programmers are born as.
07:04 <@Haarg> i just reformatted.  i've got windows set up pretty funky, so it takes a while.
07:04 <@rizen> in college i got a c- in my speech class
07:04 <@rizen> cuz i was always too nervous
07:04 <@rizen> i c
07:04 <@rizen> did you partition it so you could dual boot linux like you said you wanted to?
07:05  * perlmonkey2 can speak in front of people he knows, but large groups and he has trouble breathing, stutters and can't think.
07:05 <@rizen> pm, it's rough at first, but if you do it often enough, you'll get good at it
07:05 <@Haarg> no, i have too much stuff.  i can't clear enough space to do that atm.  but a lot of the funkyness is from multiple drives/partitions.  so if i clear some space, i can do that relatively easy.
07:06 <@rizen> oh...haarg, i was going to ask you, i have some extra hard drives if you want them
07:06 <@Haarg> that isn't the issue :)
07:06 <@rizen> you could use them to have a linux drive
07:06 <@vayde> Public speaking is like everything else.  You practice, and it get's alright.  My biggest crowd yet was 2500
07:06 <@rizen> oh
07:06 < perlmonkey2> This spec is awesome.  The response driven part was always a PItA for entering surveys....This is definetely going to be fun.
07:06 <@Haarg> i've already got 4
07:07 <@rizen> hehe
07:07 <@Haarg> but with that much space, i tend to never delete stuff
07:07 <@rizen> ok haarg
07:07 <@rizen> any questions so far pm?
07:08 < perlmonkey2> nope, still reading through the spec
07:08 <@rizen> pm, i agree the response driven surveys sucked before...by making it hierarchical rather than linked, it will be much much better
07:08 <@rizen> sorry, i tried to keep it short, but it still turned into 5 or 6 pages
07:08 < perlmonkey2> No, the more the better.  And I didn't they sucked, just difficult to enter.
07:09 <@rizen> well what sucked about them was that you had to build the survey backwards
07:09 <@rizen> enter the last questions first
07:09 <@rizen> either that, or go back in and link all the questions after you had entered them
07:10 <@rizen> btw..i left out a bunch of the nice the stuff i wanted to add to the list because i felt like it was already getting long in the tooth
07:10 <@rizen> i could have added another 2-4 pages to the document with additional requirements
07:11 <@rizen> but i didn't want to overwhelm you
07:12 < perlmonkey2> Looks like you have big plans for the survey.
07:12 <@rizen> the survey could be a killer feature for webgui
07:12 <@rizen> but right now it's barely a blip on the radar
07:13 <@rizen> since you guys use the survey system, you'll probably do a better job making it your baby
07:13 <@rizen> cuz you'll throw in all the cool tweaks that make it easier to use and more powerful
07:14 < perlmonkey2> Okay, tell me to shut up and read if this is answered further on, but in 2.2 a question can be attached to either an answer or another question.  I understand that being attached to an answer means that answer should cause the question to be asked next.  But what does it mean to be attached to a question?  That if that question is answered (with any answer at all), then the attached question should be asked next?
07:14 <@rizen> no, think of it as the "default" question to go to next
07:15 <@rizen> if you look at the two exhibits at the end of the document
07:15 <@rizen> it should be more clear
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07:15 < perlmonkey2> Yes, we paid BIG money for a survey system, which didn't work.  I was then given 3 days to fix it or rewrite my own.  I quickly wrote my own, which wasn't flexible and sucked.  So half way through the survey period, I found your Perlcast and ported my surveys to WebGUI.  Was definetely a good move.
07:16 <@rizen> if a question is attached to another question, and some of the answers don't have questions attached to them, then use the "default" question
07:16 < perlmonkey2> okay, that makes perfect sense.
07:16 <@rizen> exhibit a shows you a line of questioning
07:17 <@rizen> and how you could follow a path to a logical conclusion
07:19 <@rizen> pm, thanks for taking this on. it's really cool of you to do it.
07:22 < perlmonkey2> WebGUI is a really cool project that I'm glad to be able to contribute to.  
07:23 < perlmonkey2> Plus this is really cool to be able to implement a "dream" survey system.  Definetely going to be fun.
07:23 < perlmonkey2> I dig the drag and drop.
07:28 < perlmonkey2> Exhibit A is making me hungry.
07:28 <@rizen> it's a yummy exhibit
07:30 < perlmonkey2> Is there a subversion/cvs repo, or should I use a nightly build?
07:31 <@rizen> svn co https://svn.webgui.org/plainblack/WebGUI
07:31 <@rizen> you can work against that
07:31 <@rizen> but i'm not going to give you commit access until we branch for 7.4
07:32 < perlmonkey2> I'd be afraid to commit to your project without some sort of vetting process.
07:33 <@rizen> well yeah, there will be an initial code review after you have something to look at
07:33 <@rizen> but that's a ways off at this point
07:33 <@rizen> you just got the spec today
07:34 < perlmonkey2> Yeah....I'll try to put together a detailed design doc soon for you to approve.
07:34 <@rizen> don't take what i gave you as gospel either
07:35 <@rizen> if there's something you think could be better some other way
07:35 <@rizen> feel free to shout it out
07:35 <@rizen> likewise, if there are some features you want to add that i haven't listed, please let me know
07:35  * perlmonkey2 has this crazy idea of going nuts with the drag and drop.  
07:35 <@rizen> if you've got the JS skills, do it
07:36 <@rizen> but be sure to to use YUI as your foundation
07:37 < perlmonkey2> All the question types in a template box which they click on, fill out the wizard for question/answers, then place in the flowchart.  The question and each answer having a node which other questions can be attached to.  Perhaps the wizard defaulting the current question as being connected to the default of the previous question, and the user can move it from there.
07:37 <@rizen> that would be amazing
07:38 <@rizen> so you're thinking about doing my crazy workflow chart idea then?
07:38 < perlmonkey2> And yes, I spent some time checking out all the ajax toolkits and YUI was my favorite.  I was very happy to see WebGUI used it too.
07:38 < perlmonkey2> Yes, that is just cool.
07:38 <@rizen> i just threw that in there for a crazy thought...i didn't think for a second that you'd do it
07:38 <@rizen> that's cool
07:38 < perlmonkey2> And YUI, while not making it trivial, makes it very doable.
07:38 <@rizen> yeah, yui definitely gives you all the foundations for that sort of thing
07:45 < perlmonkey2> IE7 goes crazy if you use YUI to drag something to a DOM object that needs to be scrolled to the right to see.  Firefox handles it like you'd hope.  But IE7 went crazy and scrolled way to the right, but jumped back to the far right of the page when I dropped the object.  This will pose a problem when the flowchart grows too large for the page.
07:46 <@rizen> are you using the latest YUI, or the one that comes with webgui?
07:46 < perlmonkey2> This was from Yahoo's example page.
07:46 <@rizen> the latest one supposedly fixed a bunch of ie7 bugs
07:46 <@rizen> oh
07:47 <@rizen> well, i guess we'll just have to put a warning in the help about it or something then
07:47 <@rizen> don't make your workflow charts too big, or use firefox
07:47 <@rizen> =)
07:47 < perlmonkey2> not sure which version.  But I can think of a solution.  Have the template frame always float on the page.  FF users can drag from it to anywhere, while IE users will have to center the chart on where they want the next question.
07:47 < perlmonkey2> heh
07:48 < perlmonkey2> Okay, I'm turning in the for the night.  Catch you on the flip side.
07:48 <@rizen> later
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18:40 <@rizen> ckotil are you here?
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05:21 <@vayde> Radix_, You around?
05:23 <@vayde> Can anyone tell me if there's a trick to the internationalization modules?
05:23 <@vayde> It should just pull in the message from whatever key you give it with $i18n->get right?
05:32 <+Radix_> I'm around, but never used the internationalisation stuff I'm afraid.
05:32 <@vayde> crap
05:32 <@vayde> I've managed to break it in an interesting way
05:33 <@vayde> well, not break I guess.
05:33 <+Radix_> oh?
05:33 <@vayde> more like inability to use it
05:33 <@vayde> User error I'm sure
05:35 <@vayde> Ahh, there it is.  Thanks Radix_
05:35 <@vayde> your mystical chi showed me the way...
05:35 <+Radix_> My inaction caused you to see the way grasshopper.
05:37 <@vayde> You did without doing
05:37 <@vayde> very wise of you
05:37  * Radix_ bows to vayde.
05:38  * vayde bows back
05:43 <+Radix_> http://www.amazon.com/Book-Stratagems-Tactics-Triumph-Survival/dp/0140169547/ref=sr_1_2/103-2377575-7044667?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177209806&sr=1-2
05:45 <+Radix_> fascinating book
05:46 <+Radix_> if you like eastern philosophy and approaches to things I highly recommend it
05:51 <+Radix_> Wish I still had my copy :(
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06:09 <@vayde> Cool.  I'll check it out
06:09 <@vayde> shh, PD is here.  can't talk about the secret.
06:11 <@vayde> might be a while before I check it out at that price though.  yikes!
06:18 <+perlDreamer> Remember when you were talking about not taking action unless provoked?
06:18 <+perlDreamer> "The cat thinks it is safe sneaking up on the dog, until it sees the mirror."
06:20 <+perlDreamer> Besides, you'll never get help with the i18n module without me ;)
06:23 <@vayde> I figured it out. neener-neener!
06:23 <+perlDreamer> doh!
06:23 <+perlDreamer> wrong namespace?
06:23 <@vayde> yep
06:23 <@vayde> didn't catch on the the namespace argument
06:24 <@vayde> most of the examples I looked at were in the default namespace
06:25 <+perlDreamer> The test code has some great examples of how to use stuff.
06:27 <@vayde> yeah, we need to go over that.  I've been in deadline panic mode ever since we met.
06:27 <@vayde> Hopefully it will ease up 
06:27 <+perlDreamer> There's no rush
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I was just pointing it out as a reference
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I'm not into guilt tripping people
06:27 <+perlDreamer> Unless I get lied to
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I hate being lied to
06:28 <@vayde> I don't think anybody likes it
06:41 < SDuensin> Hey vayde, that book can be found a LOT cheaper if you want it.
06:42 < SDuensin> vayde (or Radix_) - http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Harro+Von+Senger&y=15&tn=The+Book+of+Stratagems&x=30
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06:48 < SDuensin> WB vayde_ 
06:49 < vayde_> dunno what it's problem is...
06:49 < SDuensin> Did you get my text about that book?
06:50 < vayde_> Uh, no.  Radix was talking about a book, but that's the only one I know of
06:50 < SDuensin> Yea.  Amazon has it for $106.  That's nuts...
06:50 < SDuensin> http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Harro+Von+Senger&y=15&tn=The+Book+of+Stratagems&x=30
06:51 < vayde_> that's a bit more reasonable
06:51 < vayde_> I wonder what they're smoking...
06:51 < SDuensin> I love AbeBooks.  :-)
06:52 < SDuensin> Some time ago I bought a book that Amazon wanted $80-90 for from Abe for $4.  With free shipping!
06:53 < vayde_> nice
06:53 < vayde_> I admit to being a terrible Amazon junkie, but even I have limits
06:53 < SDuensin> hehe
06:54 < SDuensin> They're fine for new items.  Once you venture into the Z-Shops, it gets crazy fast.
06:55 <+perlDreamer> What are Z-Shops?
06:56 < SDuensin> Amazon's version of eBay.
06:56 < SDuensin> You can set up your own "Z-Shop" and sell items there.
06:56 <+perlDreamer> Hmmm...
06:57 <+perlDreamer> How do they do on eccentric stuff?
06:57 < SDuensin> A lot of them are crazy.  And Amazon's out-of-print book locater is flat out insane for pricing.
06:57 < SDuensin> Who?  Amazon or Abe?  Either way, go there and punch it in the search box.  :-)
06:58 < SDuensin> Abe is neat because it's a clearinghouse for small books shops all around the country.
06:58 < SDuensin> You order from Abe and they get the seller to mail it to you.
07:00 <+perlDreamer> how do they do on magazines?
07:00 < SDuensin> Never looked.  Good question.
07:01 <+perlDreamer> I need to track down a December 1922 copy of Century Magazine
07:02 < SDuensin> Um, good luck with that.  :-)
07:02 < vayde_> master, you ask the impossible
07:02 <+perlDreamer> All things are possible
07:03 < SDuensin> Oh yea?  Make me rich!
07:04 <+perlDreamer> I don't grant wishes.
07:04 <+perlDreamer> But it is possible for you to be rich
07:04 <+perlDreamer> It will take work, dedication and commitment.
07:05 < SDuensin> "Patience.  Yea, yea, yea...  How long will that take?"
07:06 < vayde_> you guys dont know how close to the truth that skit is
07:06  * vayde_ shudders
07:06 < SDuensin> "Come on!  I got the pajamas!"
07:07 <+perlDreamer> Hmmm...
07:07 <+perlDreamer> Well, a hardbound copy of Straw and Prayerbooks is $200
07:07 < vayde_> you too shall be honored to learn a kesson...
07:07 <+perlDreamer> A little outside of my price range
07:08 < vayde_> er lesson
07:08 <+perlDreamer> It's out there somewhere
07:09 <+perlDreamer> I need to find a copy of that magazine so that I can get a story from it republished in Guttenberg
07:09 <+perlDreamer> they need an original to verify the copyright
07:11 < SDuensin> I have no idea how you'd go about that.  :-(
07:12  * SDuensin is outta here.  Gotta catch up on my Stargate!
07:22 <+perlDreamer> Now you're talking!
07:24  * vayde_ is watching Empire.  Gotta memorize Yoda's lines for class
07:25 <+perlDreamer> There is no try.  Do, or do not!
07:26 < vayde_> No no no!  There is no why!  Nothing more will I teach you today.
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13:43 <+Radix_> SDuensin: thanks for the url - wasn't going to buy it from amazon, was just looking for the book again - and yeah.. $104 is a BIT too much for any book really ;)
13:45 <+Radix_> Amazon did have used hardcover versions for $13 tho
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05:06 <@rizen> vayde or Haarg, i need an opinion if you're here and you've got a sec
05:31 <@vayde> am here now
05:31 <@vayde> wassup?
05:32 <@vayde> rizen, I'm back at the deck
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06:03 <@rizen> back at the deck?
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06:14 <+Radix-wrk> "back on deck"?  "back with a full deck"?  "back, prepare to get decked"?
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07:06 < vayde_> rizen, what's up?
07:07 <@rizen> ckotil volunteered to do some work on webgui core, but he's unsure of his skills
07:07 <@rizen> so wants to start small
07:07 <@rizen> i've been thinking about what to assign him all weekend
07:07 <@rizen> but i'm struggling
07:08 < vayde_> not sure what you would call 'small'?
07:08 <@rizen> i have lots of things to give him...but i'm not sure what is right
07:08 <@rizen> what is too small
07:08 <@rizen> what is too big
07:08 <@rizen> for example, there are a lot of form controls that need refactoring
07:08 < vayde_> I don't think anything is too small really.  Any success builds your confidence.
07:09 <@rizen> like we need the date form controls to use the YUI calendar
07:09 <@rizen> but that then requires that he figure out some javascript, and he said he doesn't know much javascript
07:09 <@rizen> there are some workflow activities i could have him write for upcoming trigger poiints that will be in 7.4
07:09 <@rizen> for that matter, i could have him install the trigger points
07:10 <@rizen> there are over a dozen of them i want to add
07:10 <@rizen> so you see, there are lots of odd jobs
07:10 <@rizen> i just don't know what to give
07:10 <@rizen> with perlDreamer and perlmonkey2, it was easy. clearly defined objectives
07:10 <@rizen> perlDreamer, please chime in here if you have advice
07:11 < vayde_> I'd start with small scope
07:11 < vayde_> he's not terribly familiar with perl?
07:12 <@rizen> he knows perl
07:12 <@rizen> he's written a workflow activity or two
07:12 <@rizen> but he's not very experienced
07:12 < vayde_> if he's written workflows, that would be my suggestion as a place to start
07:12 <@rizen> my understanding is he's more of a sys admin that has learned some programming
07:12 <@rizen> but that's where i started from too
07:13 <@rizen> the problem is that i don't have any "refactoring" work in workflow activities
07:13 <@rizen> i have only new workflow activities that need to be written
07:13 <@rizen> i figure that refactoring is easy
07:13 <@rizen> cuz you don't need to start from scratch
07:13 < vayde_> maybe I'm not following.  what do you mean by 'refactoring'?
07:14 <@rizen> what you're doing with auth is refactoring
07:14 < vayde_> ahh
07:14 <@rizen> it's adding functionality or cleaning up functionality
07:14 <@rizen> that already exists
07:14 <@rizen> but it's not building something from scratch
07:15 <@rizen> it's the difference between me asking you to add a new type of password recovery to the auth system
07:15 <@rizen> instead of asking you to write an entirely new plugin for the auth system
07:15 < vayde_> I follow.
07:15 <@rizen> or even worse yet, writing a whole new auth system
07:15 <@rizen> =)
07:15 < vayde_> for a sysadmin that would indeed be easier
07:16 <@rizen> that's why i'm struggling
07:16 <@rizen> most of the refactoring work i have for him is in the forms api
07:16 <@rizen> but most of that involves javascript at some level
07:16 <@rizen> and there's a bunch of new work to be done in the workflow stuff
07:16 <@rizen> but it's all new, not refactoring
07:16 < vayde_> javascript isn't that bad
07:16 <@rizen> i'm thinking about giving him trigger points to add
07:16 <@rizen> it's relatively easy to do
07:17 <@rizen> for example, there should be a trigger upon login
07:17 <@rizen> and a trigger upon logout
07:17 < vayde_> that sounds like the best idea to me
07:17 < vayde_> a) within a system he's used
07:17 <@rizen> triggers are pretty easy to add
07:17 < vayde_> b) within a language he understands
07:18 < vayde_> and if it's limited to the scope of the workflow world, that will help
07:18 <+perlDreamer> I'd agree on the triggers
07:18 < vayde_> It's the OO interwoven-ness that has been my biggest problem
07:18 <+perlDreamer> Always play to a volunteer's passions and experience before drawing them beyond it
07:19 < vayde_> hard to tell where everything comes from , it's so interwoven
07:20 <+perlDreamer> Especially in Auth
07:21 <+perlDreamer> but if you think that's bad, try to grok the Commerce System
07:24 < vayde_> I think that if you can limit the scope so that the interrelationships of the parts are clear, then your developer will pick it up faster.
07:24 < vayde_> hard to tell what's going on with the trunk, tail, ear etc, until you grasp that its an elephant.
07:25 < vayde_> then the details make more sense.
07:27 <+perlDreamer> Sounds like you need a good Yoda quote for that one.
07:27 < vayde_> I'm drawing a blank.  sorry
07:28 <+perlDreamer> "Mudhole? Slimy? My home this is."
07:28 <+perlDreamer> "You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes."
07:29 < vayde_> between Auth, workflow, and User
07:29 <@rizen> vayde, why did you send me both AuthWebGUI.pm and WebGUI.pm
07:29 < vayde_> Remember a developer's strength flow from session
07:29 <@rizen> oh nevermind
07:29 <+perlDreamer> I like that one, vayde_
07:29 < vayde_> I sent you everything I had to extend
07:30 < vayde_> to do what I thought you wanted
07:34 <@rizen> vayde_:  have you tested this code?
07:34 <@rizen> and the other things that you've changed to make sure they still work
07:35 < vayde_> yes.  I changed passwords 6 ways from sunday
07:35 < vayde_> keep in mind, I still don't know all the various interconnects
07:35 <@rizen> you also tried the old way, to make sure that still works?
07:35 < vayde_> um, not today, now that you mention it.
07:36 < vayde_> hang on
07:36 < vayde_> I tried not to 'change' anything
07:36 <@rizen> don't fight me on terminology...you touched that section of code
07:37 <@rizen> which means it needs to be tested
07:37 < vayde_> I'm not playing terminology on you
07:37 < vayde_> I tried not to alter existing funcitons
07:37 < vayde_> but rather add ones I need, or use the existing ones
07:38 <@rizen> ok, let me restate more clearly...it's not relevant what you tried not to do
07:38 <@rizen> it's only relevant that you test all the code that you touched
07:38 <@rizen> every corner
07:38 <@rizen> of every method
07:38 <@rizen> that was altered
07:39 <@rizen> the reason i'm harping on this is that "i try" not to ever introduce bugs into my code
07:39 <@rizen> but inevitably i do
07:39 <@rizen> =)
07:40 <+perlDreamer> He's trying to prevent you from months of self-recrimintation after breaking WebGUI in fundamental ways
07:40 <+perlDreamer> that will make hours of work for you as you try and fix it
07:40 <@rizen> perlDreamer has had such an experience
07:40 <+perlDreamer> Kind of like what I did with the Great Form Fiasco of 2005
07:40 <@rizen> hehe
07:41 <+perlDreamer> It was after that that I became interested in testing.
07:42 <+perlDreamer> although we have no automated tests to help with that part of wG.
07:44 <+perlDreamer> and testing the LDAP part of wG is nigh on impossible unless you happen to have an LDAP setup lying around.
07:44 <+perlDreamer> That's something else we need to mock or create a test setup for.
07:44 < vayde_> I understand.  I have tested the 'profile' password recovery.  it still works
07:45 < vayde_> Believe me, JT, I am incredibly paranoid about screwing up the code I touch. 
07:46 <@rizen> cool...then please proceed to check it in when 7.4 is branched
07:46 < vayde_> What you originally took for 'inability to make decisions' was in fact just that paranoia
07:48 < vayde_> will do.  Is that scheduled yet?
07:48 <@rizen> no
07:49 <+perlDreamer> It's the same time at Perl 6 is released, or whenever all the non-7.4 bugs are cleared out.
07:49 < vayde_> Ok, I'll hide em in some corner till then
07:49 <@rizen> put the files out on the i drive
07:49 <@rizen> there is a folder called webgui
07:49 <@rizen> for 7.4 related stuff
07:49 < vayde_> even better.
07:51 < vayde_> 7.4 pre-branch folder?
07:52 <@rizen> if you're at i/WebGUI then you're there
07:57 <+perlDreamer> dang it
08:02 < vayde_> That's it for me.  I'll see you all in the morning
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08:03 <+perlDreamer> So how does one pronounce Nik' nom de IRC?
08:04 <@rizen> "nick"
08:04 <+perlDreamer> vayde spells "nick"?
08:04 <+perlDreamer> vaydee?
08:04 <@rizen> oh
08:04 <+perlDreamer> vaydeh
08:04 <@rizen> i was thinking like vader, without the er
08:04 <@rizen> that's how i've been saying it
08:04 <@rizen> but i don't know for sure
08:05 <+perlDreamer> vayd
08:05 <+perlDreamer> I can dig that
08:05 <+perlDreamer> It's shorter than perlDreamer, anyway
08:05 <@rizen> yeah, but you have cool initials pd
08:05 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
08:05 <+perlDreamer> are things leveling out at $dayJob?
08:05 <@rizen> so you can do the short pd, or the full perlDreamer
08:06 <+perlDreamer> or are you still burning the midnight oil?
08:06 <@rizen> $jt->dayJob->destroy();
08:06 <@rizen> hehe
08:06 <@rizen> it's getting better
08:06 <@rizen> i had 4 18 hour days last week
08:06 <+perlDreamer> oy
08:06 <@rizen> but friday i only worked 7 or so
08:07 <+perlDreamer> that is getting better
08:07 <@rizen> unless you count the spec i wrote up for perlmonkey
08:07 <+perlDreamer> and one for me
08:07 <@rizen> yesterday i did yours
08:07 <@rizen> and compiled a new wre for a client
08:07 <+perlDreamer> btw, I'm going to ship it over to michele for consultation
08:07 <@rizen> so i only put in 2 or 3 hours yesterday
08:07 <+perlDreamer> she said she was interested in that as well
08:07 <@rizen> ok
08:08 <@rizen> btw...i forgot one critical thing
08:08 <+perlDreamer> ?
08:08 <@rizen> well not critical...but rather a crazy idea that would be super sweet
08:08 <@rizen> let me look up an address quick
08:09 <@rizen> it would be super sweet if you used SQL::Translator (http://search.cpan.org/~jrobinson/SQL-Translator-0.08/) to parse the queries, so that people could "re-edit' their SQL using the wizard, without having to start from scratch each time
08:15 <+perlDreamer> and here I thought you wanted to add a natural language interface
08:15 <+perlDreamer> phew!
08:16 <+perlDreamer> p.s. Kathy says hi
08:16 <+perlDreamer> and that you work too hard
08:17 <@rizen> she wouldn't know that i did if you didn't tell her
08:18 <+perlDreamer> It's not like you're in trouble or anything
08:18 <@rizen> plus i bet i know someone else she knows that works just as hard as me
08:18 <@rizen> right, but i want her to think i'm normal
08:18 <@rizen> =)
08:18 <+perlDreamer> Dude, I love you like a brother, but she's met you.
08:18 <@rizen> don't want her to think i'm a bad influence on you
08:18 <+perlDreamer> besides, she doesn't like normal guys
08:19 <+perlDreamer> just whacko perl hacking, tuba playing types
08:20 <+perlDreamer> time for me to crash out
08:20 <@rizen> me too
08:20 <+perlDreamer> I have to wake up early to finish a contract for Jamie
08:21 <@rizen> ttyl
08:21 <@rizen> ah
08:21 <@rizen> yeah...get that done!!!
08:21 <@rizen> i don't even know what it is
08:21 <+perlDreamer> Event calendar changes
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10:21 < greghacke> Anyone have a moment for an easy-ish java question?
10:22 < greghacke> Well, what is probably a javascript question
10:34 < AMH_bob> ok, javascript - just fire it
10:50 < greghacke>   function swapBadgeInfo(badgeId) { 
10:50 < greghacke>     var selector = document.getElementById('badgeId_formId'); 
10:50 < greghacke>     for (var i in badges[badgeId]) { 
10:50 < greghacke>       var field = document.getElementById(i+'_formId'); 
10:50 < greghacke>       if (field && badges[badgeId][i]) { 
10:50 < greghacke>         field.value=badges[badgeId][i]; 
10:50 < greghacke>       } else { 
10:50 < greghacke>         if (field) field.value=''; 
10:50 < greghacke>       } 
10:50 < greghacke>     } 
10:50 < greghacke>   }  
10:50 < greghacke>   var selector1 = document.getElementById('badgeId_formId'); 
10:50 < greghacke>   if (selector1) { 
10:50 < greghacke>     swapBadgeInfo(selector1.value); 
10:50 < greghacke>   }
10:50 < greghacke> I want this to show default, etc.
11:04 < AMH_bob> So if there is an badheId_formId element (an option list), you want it's fields filled with the values from the bagdes array 
11:05 < AMH_bob> Now, what do you mean when you say: 'I want this to show default, etc.'?
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15:51 < SDuensin> Good morning all.
15:56 < ckotil> hello
16:06 < AMH_bob> Goodmorning!
16:13 < SDuensin> Hello ckotil & AMH_bob 
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17:18 <@rizen> moring all
17:18 <@rizen> man you guys start early
17:18 <@rizen> or maybe i start late
17:18 <@rizen> =)
17:18 < SDuensin> hehe
17:19  * SDuensin starts at 7:30 CST.
17:19  * rizen starts at whenever he gets up...but often doesn't finish until whenever he goes to bed
17:20 < SDuensin> I used to do that.
17:21 <@rizen> i did it every day for 3 years when i first started pb/wg
17:21 <@rizen> now i don't do it every day anymore
17:21 <@rizen> weekends i usually don't work too much anymore
17:21 < SDuensin> I made it four years before I burned out.
17:21 <@rizen> and i try not to do it every night of the week
17:22 <@rizen> it's roughest right after i hire new peeps (which i did 2 of in the past month)
17:22 <@rizen> they are doing their work just fine
17:22 <@rizen> but somehow my workload increases
17:22 <@rizen> i think it's due to all the stuff that was piling up before i hired them
17:35 < perlmonkey2> Maybe you are busy overseeing the new employees to make sure everything is cool?
17:36 <@rizen> there is a little of that sure
17:36 <@rizen> i think it's also that my staff knows that since we've hired some staff to replace some of my duties, they feel that i'll have more time to help them with their projects
17:37 <@rizen> last week i didn't complete a single task i set for myself to do. it was all stuff set for me by staff
17:38 <@rizen> when you're the boss in a small company, there's only so much delegation you can do. you run out of staff quickly. and whatever is left over rests on your shoulders
17:44 < perlmonkey2> Sounds like you are crazy busy and that things are going well.  You must be loving it.
17:45 < SDuensin> :-)
17:46 <@rizen> it's a good time
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18:47 <@rizen> so perlmonkey2, have you had some time to digest the spec?
18:47 <@rizen> any questions?
18:48 < perlmonkey2> I've looked through the spec a few times and started to come up with an implementation spec, but I have to finish a major milestone at work before I can move forward.
18:49 <@rizen> totally understandable
18:49 <@rizen> i'll leave you alone about it, and let you contact me if you have any questions
18:50 < perlmonkey2> I'm sure I will later on tonight :)
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18:56 <+perlDreamer> good morning guys
18:56 <+perlDreamer> What's up in the World of WebGUI?
18:56 <@rizen> got a few more volunteers this morning
18:56 <@rizen> some private shy ones
18:56 <@rizen> =)
18:57 <+perlDreamer> That's awesome!
18:58 <+perlDreamer> We always thought that more devs would come out of the woodwork when 7.0 started to level out.
18:58 < SDuensin> :-D
18:58 <+perlDreamer> Art thou one of the aforementioned shy ones?
18:58 <@rizen> now if we could just get that SD guy to do something
18:58 <@rizen> =)
18:59 < midellaq> hi all :-)
19:01  * SDuensin hopes to be when he has some more time.
19:01 < SDuensin> Seeing as how I'm moving my entire Web Empire to it, I'll be doing some hacking for sure.
19:02 <@rizen> not to mention that the first assignment i'd give him is to migrate zkDesktop to wg
19:02 <@rizen> =)
19:02 <@rizen> hi midellaq!
19:02 < midellaq> <-- coward shy guy here
19:02 <@rizen> shy and coward aren't the same thing
19:03 <@rizen> cowards take no action
19:03 <@rizen> you're taking action
19:03 <@rizen> so you're a shy hero
19:03 < midellaq> well at least I *say* I want to do something
19:03  * SDuensin still wants to see the wG + ZDK roadmap.  :-)
19:04 <@rizen> midellaq...are you saying you aren't going to do stuff then?
19:04 <@rizen> sd: when you have time to do it, then we'll talk about it
19:04 < midellaq> :-) I have time to spend
19:04 < SDuensin> Well, I get paid to work on ZKD.  If wG integration adds to the project, I may be able to do it at work.
19:06 <@rizen> ok sd, then let me get the specs written i'm working on, and then we can talk about how having zk assimilated into the wide world of webgui will rock your boss' sox off, and be one of the coolest things ever added to webgui
19:06 < SDuensin> :-D
19:07 <@rizen> midellaq, did you get my email earlier today? does that sound like something you'd be interested in?
19:07 < midellaq> sorry I didn't get it :-(
19:08 < midellaq> was it @staff.dada.net reply-to?
19:09 <@rizen> yes
19:09 <@rizen> am i in your spam filter?
19:10 < midellaq> can you send that again at midellaquila 'at' gmail.com
19:10 < midellaq> sure not but maybe our corporate server is behaving paranoid
19:11 <@rizen> sent
19:11 < midellaq> ty :)
19:11 <@rizen> twas very short
19:11 <@rizen> but i didn't know if you'd feel comfortable discussing the details on irc
19:11 <@rizen> that's why i sent the email
19:12 < midellaq> read it...
19:13 < midellaq> ok... I'll be waiting your draft..
19:15 <@rizen> ok, so you would be interested in doing that project then?
19:15 < midellaq> sure
19:15 < midellaq> what do you have in mind about ws client?
19:15 <@rizen> sweet...how are your javascript skills? cuz there will be some ajax stuff that uses the YUI toolkit
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19:15 < midellaq> I've eval'ed yui before...
19:16 <@rizen> ok...i'll get to work on your spec document then
19:16 < cap10morgan> does 7.3.14 not use the eventscalendar table anymore?
19:16 <@rizen> i've already got two others in the queue before yours though
19:16 <@rizen> cap: no
19:16 <+perlDreamer> no cap10morgan.
19:16 <@rizen> hasn't since 7.3.0
19:16 < cap10morgan> ok, good to know
19:16 <@rizen> or rather, the 7.2.x series
19:17 < cap10morgan> my .myi and .myd files disappeared for a few tables on some of my dev sites
19:17 < cap10morgan> but the .frm files stayed, which causes problems
19:17 < cap10morgan> but it appears to be only for those deprecated tables
19:17 < midellaq> np.. I'll take a look at changes on wG since november... as I told you it's quite a long time since I quitted my last job
19:17 < cap10morgan> strange
19:20 <@rizen> yeah, it would be good to get up to speed a little
19:20 <@rizen> but mainly since then we've been just fixing bugs
19:20 <@rizen> the two newest things added are the wiki asset, and the calendar asset
19:20 <@rizen> neither of which have any impact on the ws client
19:21 < cap10morgan> is indexedsearch also no longer used in 7.3?
19:21 <@rizen> nope
19:21 < cap10morgan> ok, phew :)
19:21 < midellaq> I see...
19:21 < cap10morgan> is there an upgrade script somewhere back there that was supposed to drop these tables?
19:21 <@rizen> yup
19:21 <@rizen> and it obviously did drop part of them
19:22 < cap10morgan> right, for some of the sites
19:22 <@rizen> so there must have been something wrong (maybe corruption) or permissions problems
19:22 < cap10morgan> yeah, could be
19:22 <@rizen> for it not to drop everything
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19:22 < cap10morgan> if i see it again i'll try to determine if there really is a bug worth reporting or just screwed-up-ed-ness on my end. :)
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20:23 < midellaq> hi again!
20:24 <+perlDreamer> she's back!
20:25 < midellaq> she?
20:25  * perlDreamer inserts foot into mouth
20:25 <+perlDreamer> sorry, wrong IRC handle
20:25 < midellaq> eheheh :-)
20:30 <@rizen> yeah, very different michelle that is a girl
20:30 <@rizen> california vs italy
20:30 < midellaq> why vs. ? ;-)
20:31 <@rizen> you're in italy, and the female michelle is in california
20:31 <@rizen> the female michelle that has webgui fame
20:31 < midellaq> :-) yes I was joking about that...
20:33 < midellaq> is she online now?
20:33 <@rizen> nope
20:33 <@rizen> her handle is mlamar
20:33 <@rizen> Michelle Lamar
20:34  * crythias mode (+o crythias ) by me
20:38 < midellaq> you can call me mike to avoid confusion :-)
20:38 <@rizen> there is also a well known mike in the community
20:38 <@rizen> we should just refer to you has midellaq
20:38 <@rizen> and them as their handles
20:38 <@rizen> keeps it less confusing
20:39 <@rizen> s/has/as/
20:39 < midellaq> that's ok..
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21:29 <+perlDreamer> lunch
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21:37 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: [ WebGUI 7.3.14 | WRE 0.7.2 ] The Great WebGUI Bugfix Day - http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/dev/discuss/the-great-webgui-bufix
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21:47 <+crythias> so we stay on 7.pi until bugfix day is over?
21:47 < SDuensin> 7.pi - hehehe
21:48 <@rizen> could you restate the question?
21:48 <@rizen> i understand 7.pi
21:48 <@rizen> what i don't understand is the condition of your question
21:48 <+crythias> actually, I'm not sure I want my "bu"s to be fixed :) :) :) :)
21:50 <@rizen> listen here bitchy bear
21:50 <@rizen> you will have your bu's fixed and like it
21:50 <+crythias> with a sense of humor, I think I'm asking if the next iteration of WG is 7.3.15 or 7.4 (I understand 7.4 dev, but is that 7.4 release as well?)
21:50 <+crythias> The Great WebGUI Bufix Day
21:51 <@rizen> 7.3.15 will be out on wednesday
21:51 <@rizen> the results of the great bugfix day will be 7.3.16
21:51 <@rizen> which will be out the following day
21:51 <@rizen> thursday
21:51 <@rizen> may 3
21:51 <+crythias> :)
21:52 <@rizen> and 7.3.x will continue to get bug fixes until we're ready to release 7.4
21:52 <@rizen> which i would imagine won't be for a month or so after we branch
21:55 <+crythias> ok.. Yung put this http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker in 7.4 
21:56 <@rizen> right, that can't be fixed until 7.4
21:56 <@rizen> it's technically a bug, but it affects very few people
21:56 <@rizen> and the change
21:56 <@rizen> has the potential to affect a great more people than the bug itself
21:56 <@rizen> therefore, it's not safe to include as part of 7.3
21:57 <+crythias> that's a longstanding issue, though, isn't it? 
21:57 <@rizen> yes it's been around a long time
21:57 <@rizen> though nobody even caught it until a few months ago when yung reported it
21:57 -!- rbroen [n=rbroen@cp47104-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #webgui
21:58 <@rizen> but i can't really allow a bug to be fixed within a stable release if the cure is potentially worse than the disease
21:59 < rbroen> Hi everybody,
21:59 < SDuensin> Greetings.
21:59 <+crythias> for the rss cache... maybe that can be emptied on workflow?
21:59 < rbroen> could anyone tell me which html taste I should use? In  other words, what doctype?
22:01 <@rizen> webgui by default recommends XHTML 1.0 strict
22:01 <@rizen> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
22:01 <@rizen> but you can use any doctype you like
22:01 <@rizen> crythias yup that could be a valid way to fix the problem
22:04 < rbroen> Oh boy, strict!? Done right, that means a lot of html tweaking!
22:05 < rbroen> How much html is generated by the core or by the modules (not counting templates)
22:06 <@rizen> from an end user (site visitor)'s point of view there is no html generated by the webgui core that cannot be edited through a template
22:06 <@rizen> however, some of the admin functionality is not templated
22:06 <@rizen> but that you shouldn't have to worry about for your site design
22:07 < rbroen> Ok, thanx
22:13 <+crythias> rizen: is that a thing workflow has the ability to to do now?
22:13 <@rizen> There is a clear cache function
22:13 <@rizen> but only clears site cache
22:14 <@rizen> not shared cache items such as RSS
22:14 <+crythias> Yeah, I figured.
22:14 <+crythias> so ... should I suggest this be a cron job thing?
22:14 <@rizen> certainly
22:15 <+crythias> OTOH, is this a "bug" in the fixable domain?
22:16 <@rizen> what is OTOH?
22:16 <+crythias> on the other hand..
22:16 <+crythias> sorry.
22:16 <+crythias> I screwed up my english again.
22:17 <+crythias> The cron job is a workaround for something that ... should it be "fixed" in WebGUI?
22:18 <@rizen> i'm not sure whether it should go into the other cache cleanup modules, or if it should be it's own thing
22:18 <@rizen> so just add the recommendation, and whomever fixes it can make that determination
22:19 <+crythias> OK. I'm just trying to be helpful, seriously :)
22:20 <@rizen> i know you are
22:20 <@rizen> and i'm trying to provide you with good answers
22:20 <@rizen> i'm sorry if i'm not
22:20 <@rizen> vetting bugs is a very useful service
22:20 <+crythias> No, it's all good
22:20 <@rizen> if you can go through and decide whether things actually are bugs, or are RFEs
22:21 <@rizen> and whether or not you can replicate the bug based upon the user's directions
22:21 <@rizen> that can help a lot
22:21 <+crythias> ooh. I'm turning admin on.. and it ends in a preposition :) :) :)
22:23 <+crythias> hm. I'll RFE: Admin Mode/View Mode
22:29 <+crythias> hrm.
22:30 <+crythias> I'm having trouble with adding events to the calendar
22:33 <+crythias> hey... the mouseover return showEvents ... 
22:34 <+crythias> is there a problem with trying to push the window "up" if it would go outside the table? or is this built into YUI?
22:35 <@rizen> no idea what you're asking, sorry
22:35 <@rizen> i haven't worked with the calendar much
22:35 <+crythias> I'm working on the calendar bug...
22:36 <+crythias> the one where show more won't show in IE6 if it hovers over the edge of a table
22:36 <@rizen> i understand that...but there are almost 50 bugs on the list, so a url would be nice if you want me to comment
22:36 <+crythias> np
22:36 <+crythias> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1177356015_495/home (demo)
22:36 <+crythias> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/calendar---pop-up-not-visible-in-ie6#IN9Za7R7OPkki4-AhF9EfQ
22:36 <+crythias> (bug report)
22:37 <+crythias> Things like walterzorn's hover account for this by moving the hover into the legit areas
22:38 <@rizen> well we're removing walterzorn's thing from the core
22:38 <@rizen> in favor of YUI
22:38 <@rizen> so if that's the problem
22:38 <@rizen> then that's also the fix
22:38 <+crythias> I don't think it's involved at all
22:38 <@rizen> but upon reading the bugfix, it sounds like both frank and knowmad have suggested solutions
22:39 <@rizen> so there's nothing more for you to work on, unless you want to fix it yourself
22:39 <+crythias> well, is this an RFE or a bug?
22:40 <@rizen> something doesn't work as advertised
22:40 <@rizen> therefore it's a bug
22:42 <+crythias> ok, this would affect the template
22:42 <+crythias> showEvents appears to be added to the template, not referenced. I apologize, I haven't dug in enough to determine which template, but likely the standard Calendar template.
22:44 <+crythias> CalendarMonth, apparently
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22:45 <+MrHairgrease> bugfix day
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> cool initiative!
22:47 <+perlDreamer> I'll see if my bosses will give me the day off
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> cool
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> I'll try to attend too
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> depends on some factors though
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> and if I do
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> I'll prolly have a head start
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> tz's you know
22:49 <+perlDreamer> well, if you get them all done we'll just go and drink beer instead
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> i think you've got that kinda backwards
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> the time you guys finish
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> i'll be drinking beer
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> =)
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22:50 <+MrHairgrease> did you guys already vote on the acme wcc btw?
22:50  * SDuensin has on his "Vote for HGR" T-Shirt.
22:51 <@rizen> i put in the "anybody but eurotrash" vote
22:51 <@rizen> =
22:51 <@rizen> =)
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> sure enough
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> i'd figure that =)
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> there are only 22 votes 
22:51 <@rizen> are you kidding, i had to vote for xeyes, it has an easter egg with me in it
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> which is not very much
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> vanity...
22:52 < SDuensin> :-P
22:52 <@rizen> keep in mind that we changed the thing to only allow votes from registered users
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> i know
22:52  * SDuensin knew he should have put a "rizen" file on that ProDOS image!
22:52 <@rizen> that's going to reduce the number of voting peeps significantly
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> but still
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> there are 20 people already on the irc channel
22:52 <@rizen> sd, i honestly don't remember who i voted for, or if i even voted at all
22:53 <@rizen> i should go look to see if i voted
22:53 <@rizen> yup, i did
22:53 < SDuensin> hehe
22:53 <@rizen> or at least i can't vote now
22:53 <@rizen> so either i voted, or i excluded myself via privileges
22:53 <@rizen> =)
22:54 <@rizen> oh man, there's a tie
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> heh
22:54 <@preaction> not anymore, i forgot to re-vote
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> there is
22:55 <@preaction> if the others weren't so useful they'd've gotten my vote
22:55 <@rizen> the 8ball macro isn't useful
22:55 <@preaction> but it's just not as cool as xeyes
22:55 <@rizen> especially since you can't even ask it what question you want.
22:55 <@rizen> that's true
22:55  * SDuensin was the master of unuseful, but he didn't make the cut.  Oh well.  :-)
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> the 8ball is pretty cool though
22:56 <+perlDreamer> I voted a while ago, but didn't the votes get expunged?
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> image people shaink theior servers
22:56 <@rizen> sd, i like yours for the retro quality
22:56 <@rizen> it was like mine in that regard
22:56 <@rizen> and i didn't make the cut either
22:56 < SDuensin> :-)
22:56 < SDuensin> Yea, but you have a reason to get cut.  :-P
22:56 <@rizen> bah..
22:56 < SDuensin> And, of course, after I did that one and the deadline passed, I thought of a couple more.
22:56 <@rizen> i deserve to win the big prize!!!
22:56  * SDuensin needs to make a ^GamerTag() macro for Xbox Live!
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> rizen: you'l get it
22:57 <@rizen> so MrHairGrease, did you get enough submissions from all of that to give yourself some stuff to talk about at the WUC?
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> i've already devised another acme using your distinct mugshot
22:58 <@rizen> oh buy
22:58 <@rizen> s/buy/boy
22:58 <@preaction> SDuensin: that would be awesome, srsly
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> There's enough
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> just dunno how i'm gonna do the talk yet though
22:58 <@rizen> it will be a fun one though
22:58 <@rizen> i always attend the martin talks
22:59 <@rizen> they are the most entertaining at the whole wuc
22:59 <+MrHairgrease> that's funny
22:59 <+MrHairgrease> so do i
22:59 < SDuensin> Better would be an asset where you can put in a gamertag or a Wii number.
22:59  * MrHairgrease slaps himself on the leg
22:59 <@rizen> well except for that "coffee talk" that koen did one year
22:59 <+MrHairgrease> what's a gamertag or a wiinumber?
22:59 <@rizen> that was hilarious
22:59 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:59 <+MrHairgrease> that was great
23:00 <+MrHairgrease> the scary thing is though
23:00 < SDuensin> GamerTag is your identity on Xbox Live (and soon, Windows Live).  Wii games have individual numbers for each title that identify you.
23:00 <+MrHairgrease> that he's dead serious about that stuff =)
23:00 <+MrHairgrease> oh ok
23:00 <@rizen> i know...and that made it even funnier
23:00 < SDuensin> You can use those names to display "cards" with your game info and scores and such on them.
23:00 <+MrHairgrease> only b/c you did have to work for him =)
23:01 <@rizen> ok, fair enough
23:01 <+MrHairgrease> ah well
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23:01 <+MrHairgrease> don't work for koen anymore
23:01 <+MrHairgrease> just for joeri these days
23:01 <@rizen> did joeri tell you that i'm no longer coming to holland this summer?
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> no he didn't
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> too bad
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> i guess we'll go to america then
23:02 <@rizen> they said that the whole hosc thing is all screwed up
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> ok
23:02 <@rizen> so it wouldn't be worth it for me to come
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> who said that?
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> joeri?
23:02 <@rizen> joeri and arjan
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
23:02 <+MrHairgrease> could be
23:03 <+MrHairgrease> im not into the hosc thing
23:03 <@rizen> apparently they were planning a big webgui day there, and i was going to come over and do some talks
23:03 <@rizen> but now they aren't even sure if hosc is going to happen
23:03 <@rizen> cuz the organizers got into a big fight or something
23:04 <+MrHairgrease> oh
23:04 <@rizen> so they said that if they do organize something, that i'll just video conference into it like last year
23:04 <+MrHairgrease> stupid leftwing communist eurotrash oss hippies!
23:04 <+MrHairgrease> ok
23:04 <+MrHairgrease> that'd be cool
23:04 <+MrHairgrease> i'll try to watch it this year
23:06 < pjesi> did I miss the WCC voting?
23:06 <+MrHairgrease> no
23:07 <+MrHairgrease> voting is still open
23:07 < rbroen> MrHair: HEY! We haven't gone to bed yet!?
23:07 <+MrHairgrease> why should we?
23:07 <+MrHairgrease> it's only 10pm
23:07 < rbroen> :P
23:08 <+MrHairgrease> otoh, now that you mention it
23:08 <+MrHairgrease> sesame street has finished already
23:09 < pjesi> btw, the url in topic is wrong
23:09 < pjesi> http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/the-greate-webgui-bugfix-day
23:10 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: [ WebGUI 7.3.14 | WRE 0.7.2 ] The Great WebGUI Bugfix Day - http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/dev/discuss/the-great-webgui-bufix-day
23:11  * SDuensin hands rizen a "g"
23:12 <@rizen> can i trade in the extra "e" that i put on the news post, to buy the "g" that i left out of the dev mailing list post?
23:12 < SDuensin> hehe
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> ah who cares
23:12 < SDuensin> You'll care when you click it.
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> not everone is a good spieler
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> =)
23:13 < SDuensin> "Klinger, fix the cake."
23:17 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrDishWasher
23:30 <+crythias> hrm
23:40 <+crythias> darnit!
23:40 <+crythias> I thought I almost had it.
23:40 <@preaction> perlDreamer: you around?
23:42 <+crythias> I'll consider the options for the more hover... 
23:42 <+crythias> it *is* a template issue, but I can't figure it out.
23:43 <+crythias> hee
23:43 <+crythias> OK... 
23:43 <+crythias> I have "an" idea that kinda works.
23:44 <+crythias> get this: if you take position:absolute out of the style, it does work - ish.
23:44 <+crythias> wth is crythias on about?
23:44 <@preaction> workish?
23:44 <+crythias> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1177356015_495/home/untitled
23:45 <+crythias> the problem: bottom of calendars can't show the full amount of "more" in IE6
23:46 <+crythias> well... if you take out "position: absolute;" you can see anything.
23:46 <+crythias> although not as pretty as directly under the DAY, it's under the MONTH.
23:48 <+crythias> what if you simply hid the data in a span?
23:48 <+crythias> gobs of data.
23:48 <+crythias> yuck
23:48 <+crythias> well, whatever
23:50 <@rizen> crythias, i can't really comment on this unless i'm digging into the problem
23:50 <@rizen> and i don't have time for that today
23:50 <@rizen> put all your comments and ideas right in the bug report
23:51 <+crythias> np. gtg. 
23:53 <+perlDreamer> preaction: perlDreamer is in the channel
23:53 <@preaction> perlDreamer: pm?
23:54 <+perlDreamer> I can't privmsg you, you're not registered
23:54 <+perlDreamer> how 'bout AIM?
23:54 <@preaction> i'm registered and identified?
23:54 <+perlDreamer> I must have mistyped your name
23:55 -!- SDuensin [n=Scott@78.sub-75-206-103.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:56 <@rizen> i want to throw out a controversial idea
23:56 <@preaction> ooh i love controversy
23:56 <@rizen> i say that common "publishing" functions like pages, articles, navigation, forums, polls, etc need to be templatable
23:56 <@rizen> and in fact are not nearly as useful if they aren't templatable
23:57 <@preaction> so the edit forms for those assets?
23:57 <@rizen> but as we move into "application" territory, things like Project Management and Time Tracking,they SHOULD NOT be templatable
23:57 <@rizen> you should be able to change colors and whatnot via CSS
23:58 <@preaction> oh, i see now
23:58 <@rizen> but when you get really complicated apps, making them templatable makes them slower, and much easier to break if the user does delve into the templates for them
23:58 <@rizen> this is especially true as we move further and further into the ajax territory
23:59 <@rizen> What i can't decide is if they flat out should not be allowed to be templated, or if they should be templated, but users should be discouraged from editing those templates
--- Day changed Tue Apr 24 2007
00:00 <@rizen> anybody have any input
00:01 <@preaction> i can see the argument for abolishing templates for certain apps, at the same time they may want to add other functionality or formatting to these apps (such as additional javascript)
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00:02 <@preaction> opening the template and seeing something intricate, screwing it up and having to rollback the version tag is probably pretty discouraging
00:02 < perlmonkey2> If they want to modify an application, this is a OSS project, why not force them to submit functionality to the source tree?
00:02 <@preaction> so i'd say "stay the course"
00:04 <@preaction> perlmonkey2: what if it's only useful in their application, such as a custom macro to interface with some proprietary software?
00:04 <@preaction> why make them monkey with their source when it's only the template that needs changing?
00:06 < perlmonkey2> I thought you just argued that they shouldn't be allowed to alter templates for applications?
00:06 <@preaction> i'm arguing for leaving things as-is
00:07 <@preaction> perhaps as a happy medium: make small sections have individual templates? say the project manager has two tables: the list of projects and a list of recently completed tasks. have two small templates that display those two tables
00:07 <@preaction> i can understand where jt's coming from, with the abolishment of certain templates, but i feel that what is gained (performance) is less important than what is lost
00:08 < perlmonkey2> micro-templates for encapsulated functionality....I like it.
00:09 <@preaction> either encapsulate the whole table or even go so far as to just have each column have its own template
00:09 <@preaction> maybe even go so far as to make a special markup for it, that would be faster / easier to parse than full HTML::Template
00:16 <+perlDreamer> nah, it's just more stuff
00:16 <+perlDreamer> if we have stuff we don't want them to break, then put it into a template variable saying: "IF YOU LEAVE THIS