--- Log opened Mon Jan 01 00:00:04 2007
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05:17 -!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.2) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!
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04:35 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. just realised why the webgui forum ratings are always screwed up
04:35 < Radix-wrk> Visitor can rate forum posts up or down
04:36 < Radix-wrk> Which means that every web crawler under the sun is effectively activating rate up/rate down at random and screwing up everyone's karma as a consequence
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06:55 < Radix-wrk> I'd love to know how to add a page to the community wiki
07:11 < Radix-wrk> LOL - http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help?sortBy=rating
07:11 < Radix-wrk> a rating of 1994
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16:39 < nutrino> Are there any known security bugs with webgui?
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16:41 < ckotil> ^ any known security bugs? 
17:35 < ckotil> yeah im having some major issues.
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18:08 <+crythias> hmm
18:08 <+crythias> HNY and all that.
18:18 < ckotil> yup
18:18 < ckotil> i get back to work and webgui has shit the fan
18:18 <+crythias> question:
18:19 <+crythias> I have some info/tutorials that I've found on the internet for aua-style buttons (web2.0/3d/gel buttons)
18:19 <+crythias> aqua
18:19 <+crythias> in ANY case
18:20 <+crythias> the question is should a list (navigation)  want to have same size buttons or size-per-entry?
18:21 < ckotil> size-per-entry, as in customizeable sizes?
18:27 <+crythias> yes
18:27 <+crythias> because...
18:28 < ckotil> could be usefull
18:28 < ckotil> it'd be a nice additional feature
18:28 <+crythias> people don't do this, but I know you can use a 1px wide repeating background with attached endcaps...
18:28 < ckotil> im guilty
18:29 <+crythias> I used this "trick" for the WebGUI 6 resizable theme, way back when.
18:36 < ckotil> nice
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19:50 < ckotil> damnit. i want the crawler bots to stop going through my http proxy
19:50 < ckotil> i think its killing my site
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20:18 <@preaction-m> ckotil: you hve a robots.txt?
21:50 < ckotil> yes
21:50 < ckotil> a good one
21:50 < ckotil> i think i found teh prob
21:50 < ckotil> fucking http proxy
21:52 < ckotil> our log files are ~30mb each
21:52 < ckotil> and its causing our whole server to seize when a crawler crawls the logs
21:53 < ckotil> does that sound plausible?
21:59 <@preaction-m> why ... how can a crawler get to the logs?
21:59 <+crythias> because http-access
22:00 <@preaction-m> why are the logs under DocumentRoot? is that how the WRE does it?
22:02 < ckotil> these are systems logs for researchers
22:02 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data.html
22:02 < ckotil> bgp rib dumps
22:02 < ckotil> igp state dumps
22:02 < ckotil> etc...
22:04 < ckotil> have you thought of how to proxy large files?
22:04 < ckotil> it seems the http proxy asset is ... dumb when it comes to large files
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22:05 < ckotil> temp files should be used for large file support, and use the in memory for smaller files
22:09 <@preaction-m> the httpproxy asset is dumb, period. it should not be used for half as much as people use it for
22:09 <@preaction-m> far better to open a vhost on a different port
22:11 < ckotil> i like to use http proxy to bring content inline with my template
22:12 < ckotil> i could use iframe, but that has its drawbacks & limitationst oo
22:13 <@preaction-m> for simple informational pages, sure it works great. but people are trying to proxy CGI applications, binary files, etc...
22:13 < ckotil> yup
22:13 < ckotil> i tried the js http proxy
22:13 < ckotil> that didnt work quite like id hoped
22:14 <@preaction-m> there'd be a nice way for CGI applications to get "proxied" by having WebGUI execute the appropriate script with the appropriate arguments/data passed on STDIN
22:14 <@preaction-m> as for binary files, or large files, that's best handled by another apache host/instance
22:17 < ckotil> interesting
22:17 < ckotil> using stdin eh?
22:18 < ckotil> what types of stdin does webgui offer?
22:18 < ckotil> outside of building a wobject
22:41 <@preaction-m> it'd have to be a wobject
22:42 < ckotil> :{
22:42 < ckotil> well thats the next step
22:42 <@preaction-m> call it an "Exec" or "CGI" wobject, build in some protections to allow only certain parameters to be passed, allow programs that don't use CGI to be called (normal CLI programs, perhaps)
22:43 < ckotil> yeah. they will start out very simple at first
22:44 < ckotil> hell my first attempt at building a wobject, printed text and did an evaluation
22:44 < ckotil> i havent made one that accepts input. thats the next step
22:45 < ckotil> how hard is it to allow users to switch between templates for a page?
22:45 <@preaction-m> on a per-user basis?
22:45 < ckotil> i.e. it defaults to one page and i want to give users the option of using a different template
22:45 < ckotil> i recently updated my template to scale the entire width of your screen
22:46 <@preaction-m> i'm not sure if template form inputs are valid for user profiles, but that'd be the best way
22:46 < ckotil> or plain scale to whatever size you desire. some people dont like this and id like to have a button tey can click to use the old template
22:46 < ckotil> is that possible?
22:47 <@preaction-m> sure it's possible, javascript could do it
22:47 < ckotil> ;]
22:48 < ckotil> cool i think i know how. use js to store and set the template varibale/url to whatever?
22:48 <@preaction-m> actually it'd be more use javascript to decide which CSS file to get
22:48 <@preaction-m> but that might work too, the two different URLs, but that'd be bad
22:49 < ckotil> they use the same css
22:49 < ckotil> i made sure of that.
22:49 < ckotil> whatd be bad about itt?
22:49 < ckotil> url to the template that is.
22:49 < ckotil> or is that determined even before the page loads?
22:49 <@preaction-m> that's determined before any data is sent to the user
22:49 < ckotil> hrm...
22:50 < ckotil> so how would i use js to change that?
22:50 <@preaction-m> it'd be bad because you'd have to maintain two versions of the same asset, but if one was a shortcut to the other with an override....
22:50 < ckotil> yeah...fuuuuck that
22:50 <@preaction-m> that'd be best actually, one a shortcut to the other, with a template override
22:50 < ckotil> it could be done with css tho
22:51 < ckotil> i could have 2 css's and force widths to the one template. yeah, i could do it.
22:51 < ckotil> oh use shortcut assets?
22:51 < ckotil> sick.
22:51 < ckotil> & easy
23:23 < vidar_> what are you trying to do?
23:37 < ckotil> have 2 templates. that users can choose from
23:37 < ckotil> im not worried about it tho.
23:37 < ckotil> im heading home. ttyl
23:38 < vidar_> better do that with js
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01:27 <@rizen> by a show of angry fists...how many people are actually here right now?
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01:41 < xdanger> \o/
01:41 -!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 8 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
01:41 <@rizen> wahoo!!
01:42 <@rizen> we've got a live one here!
01:42 < xdanger> =)
01:42 < xdanger> wazzup?
01:43 <@rizen> nothing at all
01:43 < xdanger> mmmm'k
01:43 <@rizen> was just wondering if anyone in that list is actually a real person
01:43 <@rizen> or if they're all bots
01:43 <@rizen> methinks we should put this channel to some good use
01:43 <@rizen> and i was just wondering where we stand at this point
01:43 <@rizen> apparently, mostly dead in the water
01:44 <@rizen> so starting from scratch
01:44 < xdanger> I'm just running irssin inside a screen so i'm "online" 24/7
01:52 < xdanger> It's a pity that webgui doesn't have a more active community
01:52 <@rizen> it's going to have
01:53 <@rizen> that's what i'm talking about
01:53 < xdanger> but... If you take a look at some php-crap, it's a good thing too ;)
01:53 <@rizen> this is part of my new years resolution for webgui
01:53 <@rizen> we will have a much stronger community by the end of 2007
01:53 < xdanger> there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for joomla! for examble
01:53 < xdanger> example
01:54 <@rizen> yup
01:54 <@rizen> part of the reason people think that the community is small for webgui
01:54 <@rizen> is that webgui has so many more features than most of it's competitors
01:54 <@rizen> it doesn't need as many plugins
01:54 <@rizen> cuz it already has that stuff built in
01:54 < xdanger> there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for <insert something made with php based on a community> for example
01:54 <@rizen> true...
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01:55 <@rizen> but people using webgui are using it to do real work
01:55 <@rizen> they aren't using it for their family home page for the most part
01:55 <@rizen> that's the difference between us and joomla
01:55 <@rizen> webgui gets shit done
01:55 < xdanger> there's not a lot of "whisels and bells" (cant type that correctly) in webgui, but you can do thouse with a couple of plugins&template alterations =)
01:56 <@rizen> what kinds of whistles and bells would you like?
01:56 < xdanger> yup, I acctually was thinking of doing a "family page" with webgui... and have each member have their own pages and galleries...
01:57 <@rizen> yeah, i'm sorry...i didn't mean to say that you can't use it for your family home page
01:57 <@rizen> i use it for mine
01:57 < xdanger> not me... my clients say that this doesn't have something and I think about it overnight and then tell them 2-4 different ways to acomplish their goal...
01:57 <@rizen> just that most of our users are business and colleges
01:57 <@rizen> not home users
01:58 < xdanger> yup, webgui - not for beginners administrators...
01:58 < xdanger> whou wre has helped a lot
01:58 <@rizen> yup, templates give you a lot of power
01:58 <@rizen> this month and next i'm writing a whole new wre
01:58 <@rizen> with GUI management tools
01:59 <@rizen> i'm hoping to have it out the door by march
01:59 < xdanger> nice... so Is that the 0.8 that someone talked about?
01:59 <@rizen> yes
01:59 <@rizen> we'll probably put out a few more 0.7 patches
01:59 < xdanger> ok, so can stop waiting for that =)
01:59 <@rizen> but no new dev is going into that
01:59 <@rizen> all new dev is going into wre 0.8
02:00 < xdanger> Just before christmas I was just testing our upgrade path 6.8.10->7.2.3...
02:00 < xdanger> I'm a bit worried about spectre
02:00 < xdanger> is it stable/safe
02:01 < xdanger> I know that you have tested it and so one, but still =)
02:01 <@rizen> to be honest i'm worried about spectre too
02:01 <@rizen> it's not as good as it needs to be
02:01 <@rizen> but i wouldn't have known that if i didn't release it
02:01 <@rizen> now that it's out in the wild, i can see how people are using it
02:01 <@rizen> and what problems they're having
02:02 < xdanger> a server writen in perl is something that I'm not comfortable with
02:02 <@rizen> so now i can make improvements
02:02 <@rizen> oh...that's not a problem
02:02 <@rizen> i've written dozens of those
02:02 <@rizen> they're as stable and safe as anything els
02:02 <@rizen> e
02:02 <@rizen> if written correctly
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02:02 < xdanger> yeah, I know that they work and so one, but still...
02:03 < cap10morgan> Is there a way to edit a style template via the API?
02:03 <@rizen> spectre is my first attempt at writing a POE based server
02:03 < cap10morgan> or even just access one and then put a different one back? (i.e. edit it via other means)
02:03 < xdanger> I'm did some reading on perlbal and mogilefs, and It's crazy that they wrote thouse in perl =D
02:03 <@rizen> yes there is cap
02:03 < cap10morgan> rizen: great
02:03 <@rizen> here's how it works
02:04 <@rizen> my $template = WebGUI::Asset->new($session, $assetId, "WebGUI::Asset::Template", $version);
02:04 < xdanger> when I tested POE, it wasn't so stable then... and the progres was a littee stale at the begining...
02:04 <@rizen> You can leave off $version if you just want to retrieve the most recent one
02:04 <@rizen> then you just do
02:05 <@rizen> $template->addRevision({template=>$newTemplateCode});
02:05 < cap10morgan> rizen: cool, makes sense. thank you.
02:05 <@rizen> After you've made that edit
02:05 <@rizen> you'll have to commit
02:05 < xdanger> and commit? or does that commit?
02:05 <@rizen> you can either do that vie code
02:05 < xdanger> o =)
02:05 <@rizen> via code
02:05 <@rizen> or you can do it via the web interface
02:06 <@rizen> doing it via code works like this:
02:06 < cap10morgan> right
02:06 <@rizen> WebGUI::VersionTag->getWorking($session)->commit;
02:06 <@rizen> That's the one liner
02:06 <@rizen> To commit the current working tag.
02:07 < cap10morgan> cool, i think i'm all set then. thanks
02:07 <@rizen> xdanger: perlbal is amazing
02:07 <@rizen> np cap
02:08 < xdanger> It is...
02:08 < xdanger> Have you taken a look at gearman? from "danga" also...
02:08 < xdanger> You could use that for a base for something like spectre
02:09 <@rizen> yes i did look at that before i built spectre
02:09 < xdanger> didn't fit your needs?
02:09 <@rizen> it would have worked great for spectre if i wanted to run spectre stand alone
02:09 <@rizen> but i decided that i wanted to use the webgui nodes
02:09 <@rizen> as the worker bees
02:09 <@rizen> rather than starting seperate worker bee servers
02:10 <@rizen> which is what gearman does
02:10 < xdanger> ok
02:10 <@rizen> i figured you already have the webgui codebase loaded into memory in apache
02:10 <@rizen> why load it again into gearman servers
02:10 <@rizen> just wasting memory...know what i mean?
02:10 < xdanger> and spectres jobs aren't that heavy lifting... we'll maybe mail stuff...
02:10 < Radix-wrk> spectre seems to randomly die on our server - no error messages or anything to say why - I've got a cron job to restart it every morning just in case.
02:10 <@rizen> even mail isn't heavy
02:10 < xdanger> yup
02:11 <@rizen> sorry to hear that radix
02:11 < xdanger> That's what I'm also worried about...
02:11 <@rizen> is there anything in your log that would indicate what's up?
02:11 < Radix-wrk> simple fix at least :)
02:11 <@rizen> also, if you're using the webgui runtime environment
02:11 <@rizen> it will autorestart spectre
02:11 <@rizen> if it dies
02:11 <@rizen> just like it does with apache and mysql
02:12 < xdanger> but you have desinged it "the-right-way" that it runs the jobs when it's restored...
02:12 < Radix-wrk> using WRE here, but not the wremonitor - as it never worked for me
02:12 < Radix-wrk> the wremonitor would continually restart spectre
02:12 < Radix-wrk> still using an older wre tho
02:13 < Radix-wrk> not tried 0.7.2 yet
02:13 < Radix-wrk> and using webgui 7.0.8
02:13 <@rizen> spectre is much better in later versions
02:13 <@rizen> also, be sure to upgrade to the latest POE and POE::Component::IKC
02:13 <@rizen> as they have fixed a lot of bugs
02:14 <@rizen> that were causing spectre problems
02:14 < Radix-wrk> that in wre 0.7.2?
02:14 <@rizen> yes
02:14 < Radix-wrk> okey.. might have to give that a go sometime then
02:14 <@rizen> but you can also do that from cpan
02:14 < Radix-wrk> we've been pretty happy with our setup, so not needed to upgrade really
02:14 <@rizen> understandable
02:14 <@rizen> once 7.3 comes out stable
02:15 <@rizen> you really should upgrade
02:15 <@rizen> we're fixing lots and lots of bugs
02:15 <@rizen> in this release
02:15 < Radix-wrk> cool
02:15 <@rizen> i'll be announcing my new years resolution for webgui on the dev mailing list in the next week or so
02:15 <@rizen> and it's all about stabilizing webgui
02:16 <@rizen> making it more robust, and speedier
02:16 < Radix-wrk> good to see you on irc a bit more too rizen :) - we're slowly getting more people on irc these days which is nice
02:16 <@rizen> i plan to be on here a lot more
02:16 <@rizen> i was really burned out at the end of last year
02:16 <@rizen> so i needed to take a break for a while
02:16 < Radix-wrk> hehe.. fair enough :)
02:17 <@rizen> i worked for 3 years straight with no vacation
02:17 <@rizen> and you can't do that when you put in the hours i do
02:17 < Radix-wrk> yeah.. webgui 5-7 was a huge undertaking
02:17 < Radix-wrk> you've done a great job tho :)
02:19 <@rizen> thanks. i appreciate it.
02:19 <@rizen> hopefully now that all that's done
02:20 <@rizen> we can get back to building the community again
02:20 <@rizen> and get webgui right back on track to being the best thing out there
02:20 < xdanger> I'm amazed that you just didn't "start for scratch"
02:20 <@rizen> i thought about it
02:20 <@rizen> more than thought about it
02:20 <@rizen> started architecting it
02:20 < xdanger> since you rewrote all of it =)
02:20 <@rizen> but then decided that i would eventually need to migrate all the content
02:20 <@rizen> anywya
02:20 < xdanger> I like most of your ideas...
02:21 <@rizen> also...i figured that a lot of the code is good
02:21 <@rizen> it just needed to be tweaked
02:21 < xdanger> I desinged a hack for you... to implement multi-lingual content and stuff... but didn't have the time to make it readaple..
02:21 <@rizen> so i decided it would be better to go evolutionary
02:21 <@rizen> rather than revolutionary
02:22 <@rizen> multi-lingual content?
02:22 < xdanger> Our biggest problem is that finland is bilangual country...
02:22 <@rizen> yeah, that's a problem i decided not to tackle
02:22 <@rizen> cuz it was just too hard to do
02:22 <@rizen> without making webgui slower
02:23 < xdanger> Or at least finnish and english...
02:23 <@rizen> if you can come up with some brilliance
02:23 <@rizen> i'd love to see it
02:23 <@rizen> maybe we can make it part of the core
02:24 < xdanger> It can be disabled... but I have to digg up my notes... or my memories about that
02:24 <@rizen> i'm sure you're not the only one that would want that
02:24 < xdanger> I didn't implement it... I was thinking of building on the metadata that you allready have
02:25 <@rizen> ah
02:25 < xdanger> But, then I got to think that a special versioning system on top of the current could be better
02:26 < xdanger> And that language selection could be writen over via simple ?changeLanguage=Fi url call
02:26 <@rizen> well if you get your notes together, i'd love to hear your ideas
02:26 <@rizen> i think it would be awesome if we could support it in a way that wouldn't cause performance issues
02:26 < xdanger> I'll have to see next week...
02:27 < xdanger> I think versioning could do that...
02:27 < xdanger> cache is a problem then..
02:27 < xdanger> you would have to check that it caches per language + object, not just object
02:29 < xdanger> another problem is administrading it
02:29 < xdanger> how would you edit it and so one...
02:30 <@rizen> that's not a problem at all
02:30 <@rizen> i have a solution for the editing that works pretty elegantly
02:30 <@rizen> i just don't have a solution for storing/retrieving the data in a way that didn't cause massive performance problems
02:31 < xdanger> A smaller obtion is to incorporate a meta tag that identifies what language should be used in the current branch, and tune the system function acording to that.. but this option is just buildin a different branch for each languge, not the "multi-lingual assetData"...
02:32 <@rizen> right, that's what we recommend people doing now
02:33 <@rizen> basically that you build out your english or whatever under one branch
02:33 < xdanger> And many are going to do a different branch anyway... because some don't have identical structure for each language
02:33 <@rizen> then you create a package out of it
02:33 <@rizen> and deploy
02:33 <@rizen> that's also true
02:33 <@rizen> other problems are that sometimes you need the pages to appear in the navigation in a different order
02:33 <@rizen> due to cultural differences
02:34 < xdanger> the problem with the branches is that error's and system texts are in the visitors language, not the branch preferred language..
02:34 <@rizen> that's a common problem in the US between the english and spanish speaking americans
02:34 <@rizen> true...but that can be fixed pretty easily
02:34 < xdanger> o, didn't even think that...
02:35 < xdanger> What I think is needed is some way to "link" the different lang-brances together... 
02:36 < xdanger> saying that en/home and fi/koti are the "same" page in different languages
02:36 < xdanger> And maybe a fallback for some pages...
02:36 < xdanger> well no.. not fallbacks...
02:37 < xdanger> something like shortcut asset that would override the context =)
02:37 < xdanger> I'm just thinking alout here...
02:38 < cap10morgan> stupid question time: once i have the WebGUI::Asset object for my template, it's not clear to me how I grab the actual text of the template (i.e. the contents of the template field in the db)
02:40 < cap10morgan> ah, obj->getValue('template') seems to work nicely
02:41 <@rizen> oh sorry
02:41 <@rizen> yes
02:41 <@rizen> getValue
02:41 <@rizen> or just plain get()
02:41 <@rizen> will also work
02:41 < cap10morgan> cool, thanks
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02:49 < xdanger> rizen: one question came to mind... was brushing my teeth...
02:49 <@rizen> k
02:49 < xdanger> Why did you impleme storage in CS?
02:49 < xdanger> and not do the attachments as assets?
02:49 <@rizen> Performance
02:49 <@rizen> They were originally implemented as seperate assets
02:50 <@rizen> but doing that actually caused the viewing of posts to slow down by quite a bit
02:50 < xdanger> This way you can't link to them inside webgui...
02:50 <@rizen> because then i had to query each post for it's childrenn
02:50 <@rizen> i understand that
02:50 <@rizen> that's the downside
02:50 <@rizen> i wanted to implement them as assets
02:50 <@rizen> but it was just too slow
02:50 <@rizen> same reason i switched them back on article as well
02:51 <@rizen> incidentally..you do have the option of not allowing attachments directly on the cs
02:51 <@rizen> and then giving people access to your media folder
02:51 <@rizen> or a folder under media
02:51 <@rizen> to upload their cs attachments to
02:51 < xdanger> couldn't you have just cached the select * from asset where lineage like '000000000100000001000000001%' and (className = 'post' or classname=file) ?
02:51 <@rizen> yes
02:51 <@rizen> that's what i did
02:51 <@rizen> but you're not getting it
02:51 <@rizen> it has to be done per asset
02:52 <@rizen> and more importantly thatn that
02:52 <@rizen> it's not the query
02:52 <@rizen> but the actual instanciation of the object
02:52 <@rizen> just trust me
02:52 <@rizen> it was too slow
02:52 <@rizen> i wrote it 
02:52 <@rizen> i know
02:52 < xdanger> ok
02:52 <@rizen> it more than doubled the load time of a 4 post thread
02:53 <@rizen> and it got far worse than that on large threads
02:54 < xdanger> just that couldn't you have left out "the actual instanciation of the object" and just load the right data for the picture in the query...
02:54 <@rizen> that's circumventing the api
02:54 < xdanger> but I think I know why that wouldn't work..
02:54 <@rizen> which means that i'd forever be updating two code bases
02:54 < xdanger> that "tweaking" =)
02:54 <@rizen> i already have a code base for accessing the data
02:54 <@rizen> yeah
02:55 <@rizen> we have 200k lines of code in webgui
02:55 <@rizen> don't you think that's enough?
02:55 < xdanger> hell no!
02:55 < xdanger> more features ;)
02:55 < Radix-wrk> pfft.. 200k lines is nothing ;)
02:55 <@rizen> for a web app
02:55 <@rizen> that's enormous
02:55 <@rizen> granted...it's no where near the 50m lines of code in MS Vista
02:56 < xdanger> my biggest project was something like 7k + lot of templates
02:56 < xdanger> that was a forum software writen in perl =)
02:56 <@rizen> was it better than the CS?
02:56 < xdanger> It was faster =D
02:56 < xdanger> but no...
02:56 <@rizen> the cs would be faster if it didn't have so many features
02:57 <@rizen> i really need to subclass that thing down
02:57 <@rizen> so it doesn't have to do so much
02:57 <@rizen> or so that it does only what it needs to do in any given context
02:58 < xdanger> rizen: I was thinking of writing a asset called "Gallery" in the spirit of Apache::Gallery... it would take in a folder in webgui tree and make that in to a gallery of it's content...
02:58 < Radix-wrk> we've got about 2m loc here.. all c/c++ code tho
02:58 <@rizen> xdanger...sounds like a great plan
02:58 <@rizen> we could really use a real photo gallery
02:58 <@rizen> provided it was ass kicking
02:59 <@rizen> radix: yeah c is pretty verbose compared to perl though
02:59 <@rizen> =)
02:59 < xdanger> that's my work-around for the cs-pictures-not-in-tree thing =)
02:59 <@rizen> a real photo gallery is on my wish list for webgui
02:59 <@rizen> but there's a lot of things on my wishlist
02:59 <@rizen> and only one of me
02:59 < xdanger> overwriting folder,file and file::image assets...
03:00 <@rizen> we need peeps like you that are willing to contribute
03:01 < Radix-wrk> hey I got a wierd email this morning from plainblack btw
03:01 < xdanger> just that I don't have the time =P
03:01 < Radix-wrk> titled "[bugs] untitled" with the content "has posted to one of your subscriptions
03:01 < Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/N7oXtEkZG5MJuSM8Gj-vXw"
03:02 < xdanger> ou, yeah... there are weird post popping up on CS... the have untitled as a title and that url
03:02 < Radix-wrk> no name given, and the url doesn't work
03:02 < xdanger> have had that problem with 6.8 ;)
03:04 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. just tried to add a wiki page and got told I don't have sufficient privileges :(
03:06 <@rizen> sorry about that cs post
03:06 <@rizen> add a wiki page to what?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> to the community wiki
03:06 <@rizen> are you logged in?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> yep
03:06 < xdanger> rizen: what is causing those posts?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> logged in as Jesse
03:06 < Radix-wrk> at http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki?func=add;class=WebGUI::Asset::WikiPage
03:07 < Radix-wrk> but when I hit Save it tells me Permission Denied - don't have sufficient privileges
03:08 <+crythias> I'm curious about something.
03:08 <@rizen> crap
03:08 <@rizen> yeah, i just saw that
03:08 <@rizen> we just upgraded and there's a new bug it would appear
03:09 < Radix-wrk> okey.. least it isn't just me then :)
03:09 < Radix-wrk> crythias, I'm curious about everything. ;)
03:09 <+crythias> heh.
03:09 <+crythias> There's a news article about CDL...
03:10 <@rizen> crythias: what's up bud?
03:10 <+crythias> Just, where's CDL's mention of WebGUI?
03:10 <@rizen> what do you mean?
03:10 <@rizen> the article mentions webgui several times
03:11 <+crythias> CDL's enthusiasm and resourcefulness with WebGUI recently paid off when they were recognized with a WOW Award from
03:11 <+crythias> http://www.wcet.info/membership/awards/wow.asp
03:11 <@rizen> oh
03:11 <@rizen> true enough
03:11 <@rizen> who knows why it's not there
03:11 <@rizen> it would be nice
03:11 <@rizen> but i certainly can't force them to do it
03:11 <@rizen> it's their award
03:12 <@rizen> not webgui's
03:12 <@rizen> though webgui contributed to it
03:12 <+crythias> certainly agree.
03:12 < Radix-wrk> the WCET guys don't need to know HOW they did the website though in order to see it's good
03:12 <+crythias> really?
03:13 <+crythias> because they aren't using the <tmpl_var header>
03:13 <@rizen> crythias...though it would be nice if you linked to webgui from your site when you win the "WebGUI Contributor of the Year" award this year
03:13 <@rizen> i won't require you to do it
03:13 <@rizen> =)
03:13 <+crythias> all my major sites link to webgui :)
03:14 <+crythias> pcanywhere doesn't link, and norton antivirus free downloads don't link...
03:14 <+crythias> but my faq certainly does :)
03:14 <@rizen> your faq rocks
03:15 <+crythias> Thanks.
03:15 <+crythias> it's getting ... old, though.
03:15 <@rizen> you mean, outdated?
03:15 <+crythias> yeah.
03:16 < Radix-wrk> that's where the wiki would be good to get going
03:16 <+crythias> I haven't had enough 7.x info to rework it.
03:16 < Radix-wrk> we can all try and keep it updated
03:16 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!
03:17 <+crythias> still no News release
03:17 <+crythias> btw.. rizen, who are you and what have you done with JT?
03:17 < Radix-wrk> I just got the sf.net notification ;)
03:17 <@rizen> what do you mean?
03:18 < Radix-wrk> heh
03:19 <+crythias> What did I do to get nice accolades from you?
03:19 <@rizen> what nice accolades?
03:19 <@rizen> you mean the contributor of the year award?
03:19 < xdanger> haha, most used word in this channel is... webgui! 1894 times =P
03:20 < xdanger> weird =D
03:20 < xdanger> usually it's somethinkin like "is" "but"
03:20 < Radix-wrk> Speaking of awards - when's doug's interview going to be up in 'People Behind WebGUI'
03:20 <@rizen> is is is is is is is is is is is
03:20 < xdanger> Ou... maybe the stats generator leaves thouse out...
03:21 <@rizen> perhaps it is is now
03:21 <@rizen> whenever doug fills out his interview
03:21 < xdanger> enjoy: http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
03:21 <@rizen> he'll be here tommorrow
03:21 <@rizen> i'll force him then
03:21 <@rizen> =)
03:21 <@rizen> anyway...gotta go
03:21 <+crythias> http://www.gwy2.org/fomfiles/cache/52.html
03:22 <@rizen> wow xdanger
03:22 <@rizen> very ncie
03:22 <@rizen> ok..now i really need to go
03:22 < Radix-wrk> cool :)
03:22 < Radix-wrk> cya
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03:23 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. another wierd one from plainblack just came through 'Announcement: untitled'
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04:30 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
06:01 <@preaction-m> force ME to fill out an interview? do i have to take a pichar too?
06:38 < Radix-wrk> hehe
06:39 < Radix-wrk> yup - or you could pay me to fly over there and take your pic, but you could buy a professional DSLR, nice lens, tripod and remote for that price ;)
06:55 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-122.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
09:00 <@preaction-m> but, but, there's a camera on my new compydore
09:17 < Radix-wrk> So what's stopping ya then! :)
09:18 <@preaction-m> nothing really, except the fear of people from New Zealand stalking me
09:45 < Radix-wrk> yeah, kiwi's are a wierd bunch
09:46 <@preaction-m> i suppose since our little soiree starts in 5 hours i should get some sleep...
09:48 < Radix-wrk> nite then :)
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:10:20 2007
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:52:38 2007
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18:01 < ckotil> fuck http proxy
18:01 < ckotil> it shoudl be rewritten....intelligentaly
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18:42 < ckotil> im reall pissed off at http proxy
18:42 <+perlDreamer> why?
18:42 < ckotil> if only i had known the consequences i wouldnt have used it
18:42 < ckotil> its DoS just waiting to happen
18:42 < ckotil> everytime
18:44 < ckotil> granted, since i stopped proxying 30mb syslog files
18:44 < ckotil> the DOS has been slowed down
18:45 < ckotil> but i launced 3 instances of my webcrawler to my site and it killed the box
18:47 <+perlDreamer> and you think it's because of the http proxy?
18:47 < ckotil> i know it is
18:47 <+perlDreamer> do they all hang on the same URL?
18:47 < ckotil> when it rewrites urls
18:47 < ckotil> the crawler just goes on and on
18:47 < ckotil> and it eventually hits some big ass file
18:47 < ckotil> and then a million httpd proccesses get spawned as a result
18:47 < ckotil> ~50*
18:47 < ckotil> hrm turning off rewrite urls might help
18:48 <+perlDreamer> well, the http proxy is just a web browser.
18:48 < ckotil> yah. i think it shoudl be more intelligent
18:49 < ckotil> i.e. check the size of files before retrieving them
18:49 < ckotil> if over certain size, then do not proxy them. just link
18:49 < ckotil> that would solve my problems. i think
18:50 <+perlDreamer> do you hack perl?
18:50 < ckotil> not much.
18:50 <+perlDreamer> if you filed an RFE with a patch it would probably get accepted more quickly than without it
18:51 < ckotil> yeaha.
18:51 < ckotil> im just not 100% what im proposing would solve my problems
18:51 < ckotil> but i do know for  a fact that the proxying of pages is fucking up my chi
18:51 < ckotil> via http proxy
18:52 <+perlDreamer> can you pull that asset from your site or limit it somehow?
18:52 < ckotil> i use it in too many places
18:52 < ckotil> im going through and using iframe or turning off rewrite urls
18:53 < ckotil> thats teh REAL culprit. rewriting urls
18:55 < ckotil> i wish i knew webgui well enough to issue a sql statement turning off rewrite url
18:55 < ckotil> instead of clicking through it all via the web interface
18:55 <+perlDreamer> in all HTTP Proxy's?
18:55 <+perlDreamer> that's pretty easy to do
18:55 < ckotil> yes. all. i dont want no stinking rewrite url. im sure it is, but i wouldnt know what tables to look in
18:58 <+perlDreamer> update HttpProxy set rewriteUrls=0;
18:58 <+perlDreamer> it's just 1 table since it's specific to this Asset.
18:58 < ckotil> mmm.
18:58 < ckotil> thanks man
18:58 <+perlDreamer> no sweat
18:59 <+perlDreamer> just try giving the HttpProxy a hack to limit file sizes and see if it helps
19:00 < ckotil> i dont think it will.
19:00 < ckotil> bc it was freezeing on our weather map whcih is only a couple hundredK
19:00 < ckotil> KB's
19:00 < ckotil> its just the amount of proxying its doing
19:00 < ckotil> the crawler goes deep
19:01 < ckotil> bc it ignores the configuration for some reason. i use htcheck
19:28 < ckotil> will i need to clear the cache after that sql statement?
19:32 <+perlDreamer> no, but you should restart the server
19:34 < ckotil> k
19:35 < ckotil> i think ive manually turned off url rewrite and the server is holding up now with 2 instances of htcheck
19:35 < ckotil> hamemring the shit out of the site
20:40 <+perlDreamer> just out of curiousity, how many clients is each instance of htcheck simulating?
21:27 <+perlDreamer> are any of the PB staff around?
21:27 <+perlDreamer> I think I can fix a bug, but it may slow down the macro processing
22:26 < ckotil> oh man
22:26 < ckotil> wtf.
22:26 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falivealert.com
22:26 < ckotil> http proxy is an OPEN PROXY
22:27 < ckotil> perlDreamer: not sure how many clients each instance creates
22:30 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2fplainblack.com
22:31 < ckotil> aww that one didnt work.
22:31 < ckotil> hrmm
22:33 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falterslash.org
23:25 <+perlDreamer> that's not an open relay, that's overriding the default URL.
23:25 <+perlDreamer> In an open relay, you should be able to fetch the URL of your choice from anywhere.
23:31 < ckotil> i dont see the differnce
23:31 <+perlDreamer> think about it in terms of email
23:31 <+perlDreamer> you want to be able to send and receive email from anywhere
23:31 <+perlDreamer> but you don't want everyone being able to use your email server
23:51 < xdanger> o fuck, and fuck again... my php guy quit...
23:51 < xdanger> and the project is behind schedule...
23:51 < xdanger> yeay!
23:53 <+perlDreamer> I don't suppose using perl is an option?
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17:17 <@preaction-m> ./mode #webgui +o rizzo
17:17 <@rizzo> BUG FIX DAY!!!!
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17:18 <@rizzo> Steve!
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17:27 <@preaction-m> frank with the high-quality nickname :p
17:28 <@n1cks3rv3sux> nothing is available and now some jackass has registered my nick
17:28 <@preaction-m> ./msg nickserv help
17:29 <@preaction-m> ./msg nickserv help register
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19:11 <@preaction-m> someone should give me founder access, or at least access enough to change access levels
19:11 <@preaction-m> so i can add khenn (frank) and meatbot (steve)
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19:12 < bopbop> hello everyone!
19:13 -!- mode/#webgui [+o bopbop] by preaction-m
19:14 <@preaction-m> With great power comes great responsibility: Use your +o wisely
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19:16 <@preaction-m> :p
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20:08 < perlm> What is driving the extremely rapid development of WebGUI?  It seems like a new beta is released every two weeks.
20:11 <@preaction-m> it's more: what is keeping it beta and not stable, and those are bugs
20:11 <@rizen> we have a 1 week maintenance cycle
20:11 <@preaction-m> we're changing from a weekly release cycle i believe, we're in our yearly staff meeting, which is why there's a population here
20:11 <@rizen> meaning, that we put out a new release every week
20:11 <@rizen> the new release is to put out bug fixes
20:12 <@rizen> however, if the bugs are signifcant enough
20:12 <@rizen> then we can't in good concience release it as stable
20:12 <@rizen> so we put out new betas
20:12 <@rizen> so people can test with the newly fixed bugs
20:12 <@rizen> or use the new beta in production if they are either daring or stupid or both
20:12 <@rizen> =)(
20:12 < perlm> I live on the edge.  We'll be going production with your Betas :D
20:16 <@rizen> We run our betas as well
20:16 <@rizen> We figure if we can't run it, then no one else should either
20:16 <@rizen> But the difference is, that we know how to fix it if all hell breaks loose
20:16 <@rizen> and most people done
20:16 <@rizen> don't 
20:16 <@rizen> so we don't recommend that anyone ever use the betas in production
20:17 < perlm> I'll just make sure to take a snapshot of the DB before we turn the users loose.
20:17 <@preaction-m> recommended with every upgrade
20:17 <@rizen> keep very regular backups
20:17 <@rizen> at least nightly
20:18 < perlm> I'm just pumped that I finally got the okay to migrate to WebGUI.  Woot.  
20:18 < perlm> Hope the meeting goes well, I'm off to lunch.
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--- Day changed Sat Jan 06 2007
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00:35 <@rizen> Doo doo doo do doooo
00:36 <@rizen> Pinky and the Brain
00:36 <@rizen> Pinky and the Brain
00:36 <@rizen> One is a genius
00:36 <@rizen> The other's insane
00:36 <@rizen> They're pinky and the brain
00:36 <@rizen> pinky and the brain
00:36 <@rizen> pinky and the brain brain brain brain brain
01:06 <@snapcount> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to rizen
01:06  * snapcount kicks rizen with a stale trout
01:07 <@rizen> snapcount goes down faster than a thai hooker
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01:41 <@snapcount> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
01:41 <+perlDreamer> maybe I should add that particular condition to the macro test to see what's going on.
01:41 <@preaction-m> hooray for public declaration!
01:41 <@snapcount> so the first step is to see if the returned quotes actually break nesting
01:41 <@snapcount> then we discuss RFE or Bug
01:41  * preaction-m submits a Freedom of Information Act Request
01:42 <+perlDreamer> what do you wanna know?
01:42 <@preaction-m> eh, just interested to keep watching and input if necesserary
01:42 <+perlDreamer> snapcount, I'm pretty sure it's quotes due to the regex on lines 139-141
01:42 <@rizen> is(1+1, 2, "Check my math.");
01:43 <@preaction-m> 401 Forbidden
01:43  * perlDreamer is haunted by bad WUC talk examples
01:44 <@snapcount> JT says it's not an RFE or Bug
01:44 <+perlDreamer> also, btw, I tried caching Macro compiles to get rid of the eval in WebGUI::Macro::process and it actually slowed things down.
01:44 <@snapcount> unless you have a way to fix it that rulez
01:44 <+perlDreamer> I
01:44 <+perlDreamer> uh
01:44 <+perlDreamer> hmmmm....
01:44 <@snapcount> smarter macro parcer ++
01:45 <+perlDreamer> Rexexp::Common::Balanced?
01:45 <@snapcount> I'm not familiar with it
01:45 <@snapcount> does it rock your socks off?
01:46 <+perlDreamer> It looks like it could be our smarter parser
01:46 <+perlDreamer> but maybe so could Text::CSV since that's essentially what the macro args are
01:47 <@preaction-m> might I suggest WebGUI::Text qw( :csv );?
01:47 <+perlDreamer> qw(splitCSV) ?
01:47 <@preaction-m> or that, :csv exports them both
01:47 <+perlDreamer> nm, I see the export tag now
01:47 <+perlDreamer> sorry, my bad
01:48 <+perlDreamer> ooh
01:48 <+perlDreamer> need to change that warn to something else using session
01:49 <+perlDreamer> in splitCSV
01:50 <+perlDreamer> preaction-m: do you want me to log that as a bug or do you want to fix it up?
01:53 <@preaction-m> perlDreamer: no, WebGUI::Text doesn't get a Session object
01:53 <+perlDreamer> dude, it needs one.
01:53 <@preaction-m> we're also doing something different with error handling/trapping
01:53 <@preaction-m> no it doesn't
01:53 <@preaction-m> it would only need it for error handling
01:53 <+perlDreamer> so some errors get thrown to error.log and some get thrown to webgui.log?
01:54 <+perlDreamer> today
01:54 <@preaction-m> basically, at the moment at least
01:54 <@preaction-m> we've got the new WebGUI (Perl) Best Practices book
01:55 <+perlDreamer> and it recommends handling error logging differently?
01:56 <+perlDreamer> btw, the only place WebGUI uses bare warn is in the Config.pm
01:56 <@preaction-m> well, it showed that Perl can do try/catch, apparently that was unknown around here :P
01:56 <@preaction-m> and croak and carp for stack traces
01:57 <@preaction-m> so the warn is wrong, it should carp, we might have to redirect $SIG{warn} to output to the proper webgui.log
01:59 <+perlDreamer> do you want that logged as a bug, then, so we don't forget to do it?
02:00 <@preaction-m> idk, it's not really a bug, it's just sometimes you have to go to the modperl error log to get some errors
02:01 <@preaction-m> perhaps once we decide what's going on with error handling in WebGUI, we'll be able to go back and make sure everything's kosher
02:01 <@preaction-m> perhaps a comment in the source
02:01 <+perlDreamer> I'll let you handle it
02:01 <@preaction-m> kk
02:10 <+perlDreamer> I'll add some more tests to Macro.pm and then see how WebGUI::Text::splitCSV does
02:10 <+perlDreamer> maybe some benchmarking, too
02:10 <+perlDreamer> although sometimes slow is better than broken
02:11 <@preaction-m> but fast is better than slow
02:11 <+perlDreamer> like, breaks faster than breaks slower?
02:11 <+perlDreamer> most times ;)
02:16 <+perlDreamer> actually, I won't
02:17 <@preaction-m> indian giver
02:17 <+perlDreamer> splitCSV does internal escaping differently from the Macro processor
02:17 <+perlDreamer> for the Macro arg processor, we need something that obeys backslashes
02:17 <@preaction-m> according to the unofficial RFC for CSV
02:17 <@preaction-m> Text::Balanced might be prudent
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02:24 <+perlDreamer> Text::Balanced is slow, at least for extracting codeblocks.
02:24 <+perlDreamer> I think I'll give Text::CSV and Regexp::Common a whirl
02:24 <@preaction-m> Text::CSV will probably pull the same escaping crap
02:29 <+perlDreamer> it does
02:29 <+perlDreamer> that means it's time to go home and sleep on it for a while
02:29 <+perlDreamer> g'night, all
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04:35 <@snapcount> Reeeeekollllllllaaaaaaa
04:36 <@rizen> plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is
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17:21  * snapcount yawns
17:21 <@snapcount> top of tha mornin to everyone
17:21 < Radix__> evenin' ;)
17:21 <@snapcount> ahh yes
17:22 <@snapcount> Australia still hasn't fixed their sun being out of synch with Florida problem
17:22 <@snapcount> =)
17:23 < Radix__> yeah.. we need a daylight saving + 12 or something I guess
17:24 < Radix__> we're having enough of a problem with daylight saving + 1 atm ;)
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--- Day changed Sun Jan 07 2007
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02:00 < perlm> anyone know any tricks for installing DBIx::FullTextSearch on a vanilla Fedora Core 5 machine/
02:00 <@rizen> it's a bastard to install on any platform
02:00 <@rizen> that's why webgui doesn't use it anymore
02:04 < perlm> it is still required in testEnvironment.pl
02:04 < perlm> so I guess that means it is okay that I forced it to install even with errors.
02:04 <@rizen> in what version?
02:04 < perlm> latest beta
02:04 < perlm> 7.3.3
02:04 <@rizen> hmm...i'll check that out
02:05 <@rizen> thanks for letting me know
02:05 <@rizen> it's out in 7.3.4
02:05 <@rizen> as of now
02:05 < perlm> de nada
02:05 < perlm> heh, cool
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18:20 < rizen_> test
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19:04 <+perlDreamer> morning
19:04 <@rizen> is it really morning?
19:04 <+perlDreamer> it is out here
19:04 <@rizen> it feels like bedtime
19:04 <@rizen> me = tired
19:05 <+perlDreamer> up late?
19:05 <@rizen> no...just a little sick
19:05 <@rizen> which has been draining me for the last couple of weeks
19:05 <@rizen> almost over it now thow
19:06 <@rizen> though
19:06 <+perlDreamer> weeks?  That's nutz.
19:06 <@rizen> yeah
19:06 <@rizen> sux
19:07 <+perlDreamer> I tried to fix Klaus's double header bug, and think I found the cause of it, but want to double check it with someone more familiar with chunking and header generation.  Game?
19:07 <@rizen> k
19:08 <@rizen> first
19:08 <@rizen> what is the bug
19:08 <@rizen> point me to a url or something
19:08 < Klaus_> Hi!
19:08 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/head-block-displayed-twice#3tLVLsiwMsgY0ZCULum18A
19:09 < Klaus_> the entry in the Extra Header field of a style is displayed doube in source.
19:09 <+perlDreamer> Klaus_: we should have you fixed up in a jiffy
19:09 < Klaus_> I think we had this bug in one of the 6er versions already fixed.
19:10 <@rizen> it doesn't sound familiar
19:10 <@rizen> there was a problem where
19:10 <@rizen> you could get double HTTP headers
19:10 <@rizen> but HTTP headers are different than head block tags
19:10 <@rizen> and the double http headers were fixed a while ago
19:11 <@rizen> ok...so you have a possible solution here
19:11 <@rizen> what is it?
19:11 <+perlDreamer> remove line 193 from WebGUI::Session::Style.pm
19:11 <+perlDreamer> uh, 198
19:12 <@rizen> 198 out of svn or version 7.3.3?
19:12 <+perlDreamer> svn
19:12 < Klaus_> My workaround was writing the tags direct into the style, not into the extra field below - but thank you for the hint removing this line from code.-
19:13 <+perlDreamer> well, I'm not sure there won't be some undesired side effects
19:13 <+perlDreamer> that's why I'm double checking with someone
19:13 <+perlDreamer> it looks dead simple, but I don't fully understand content chunking and the header generation
19:14 <@rizen> the prepare() method is always called on every template as it is rendered
19:14 <@rizen> and as you say, that does shove the head block into place
19:14 <@rizen> so yes, we no longer need that line in Style.pm
19:14 <+perlDreamer> okay
19:14 <@rizen> it's a relic of a day gone by
19:14 <+perlDreamer> I'll add a new test or two to Session/Style.pm and remove the line.
19:15 < Klaus_> tests on solved bugs were always good.
19:16 <+perlDreamer> Yeah, I'm embarassed to say that the present Style.pm test (which I wrote) didn't find this earlier.
19:16 <@rizen> you can't find everrything colin
19:16 <@rizen> don't beat yourself up about it
19:16 <+perlDreamer> I'm not
19:16 <+perlDreamer> this time :)
19:18 < Klaus_> yes. but the meanwhile huge test suite gives an additional confidence on webgui. great! :-)
19:18 <@rizen> klaus, do you write perl?
19:19 < Klaus_> a litte bit. still learnig - even from webgui code.
19:19 <@rizen> we''re always looking for eagle eyed people to help us make webgui better
19:20 <@rizen> i hope you'll consider joining the core developers, writing bug fixes, tests, and eventually new features
19:21 <@rizen> one of the best ways to learn perl is to start out writing tests
19:21 <@rizen> because tests are easy to write
19:21 <@rizen> and in doing so, you get to look at a whole lot of the codebase
19:21 <@rizen> thusly learning both perl
19:21 < Klaus_> oh yes - I will do. Helping more than only reporting bugs and REFs.
19:21 <@rizen> and the webgui api
19:21 <@rizen> don't get me wrong, reporting bugs and rfe's is great too
19:23 < Klaus_> I can give it a try in writing or improoving some of the tests.
19:23 <@rizen> that would be great
19:23 <@rizen> if you need assistance, colin and i are both around most of the time
19:24 < Klaus_> the next days im trying to bring the German translation into a productive state. The German usergroup is a bit small and inactive.
19:24 <@rizen> are you using the translation server to do it?
19:25 <@rizen> http://i18n.webgui.org/
19:25 <@rizen> may make it easier if you aren't
19:25 < Klaus_> I'v used it the last months, now I've set up my own
19:26 < Klaus_> Sometimes it's better to sreach and replace things over the whole translation.
19:27 < Klaus_> On your server I can't do it on the translated files.
19:27 <@rizen> give me the specs for what you want to do and i'll be happy to add the functionality to the translation server
19:27 <@rizen> the reason i like the translation server
19:27 <@rizen> is that everyone can pitch in to work on the changes
19:28 <@rizen> rather than having just one person do it
19:28 <@rizen> it's easier to do as a group
19:28 < Klaus_> Import an translation
19:29 < Klaus_> Won't it be good having the translation server password protected so that not everone could change things?
19:29 <@rizen> people have said that to me, but i kind of look at it as a wiki
19:29 <@rizen> in that it works better as a community project
19:30 <@rizen> if it's password protected, then all of the sudden it's back to a single user per translation
19:30 <+perlDreamer> we're probably small enough that we don't have to worry about wikiSpam (or translationSpam) yet.
19:30 <+perlDreamer> although someone did trash PDX.pm's wiki a few months ago
19:31 <@rizen> i know it's possible, but we have backups
19:31 <@rizen> and community process on a task this large
19:31 <@rizen> is more important than worrying about spam
19:32 <+perlDreamer> crud.  I found a FC6 bug.
19:33 <+perlDreamer> Either that or I need to install the FC6 perl-image-magick RPM
19:33 <+perlDreamer> I probably won't be able to get the patch committed until this afternoon.
19:33 <@rizen> what patch?
19:34 <@rizen> the style one?
19:34 <+perlDreamer> yes
19:34 <@rizen> i can do that right now
19:34 <@rizen> i'll do it
19:34 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'll commit the new test later
19:34 < Klaus_> One possible way could be a "commit to svn" function in the translation server. The translators will better notice the changes from others.
19:35 <+perlDreamer> That's a good idea.  That way translators could also sign up to get notification when commits are made.
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19:36 < Klaus_> BTW there are two entries for German that point to the same files: /German"/ and /German/. Could you please delete the Entry with the quotation marks?
19:36 <@rizen> yup
19:40 <@rizen> the quote version is gone
19:40 <@rizen> the patch is committed
19:40 < Klaus_> thanks!
19:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm off to church.  Be back later.
19:43 <+perlDreamer> Thanks, JT
19:43 <@rizen> later
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20:07 <+MrHairgrease> \nick MrAFKGrease
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20:08 <@rizen> i've almost got the commit to svn option working
20:12 <+MrAFKGrease> commit to svn from what?
20:13 < Klaus_> I've ssen it. 
20:13 < Klaus_> Commit to SVN from the translationserver.
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> is there a translation server?
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> fr 18n files?
20:13 <@rizen> yup
20:13 <@rizen> i18n.webgui.org
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> oh cool
20:13 <@rizen> http://i18n.webgui.org
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> were updating all the i18n stuff
20:14 < Klaus_> or http://translation.webgui.org/ ;-)
20:14 <@rizen> sweet
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> 7.3.3 is ready
20:14 <@rizen> if you give me the files you've worked on so far, i can import them into the translation server
20:14 <@rizen> that is, if you want to
20:14 < Klaus_> JT, should I mail you my actual translation to import it into the translatinserver?
20:14 < Klaus_> Ok :-)
20:14 <@rizen> sure
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> ok
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> i'll send em to you tonight
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> actually it is a ducth community project
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> 10 people or so are working on it
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> i'm just tarring everything up =)
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> other question
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> i'm gonna add a start stop button to the timetracker
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> for use within oqapi
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> does that have any chance of making it into webgui?
20:16 <@rizen> your entire translation team is welcome to use the translation server
20:17 <@rizen> what is oqapi?
20:17 <@rizen> regardless, ,yes ii'm find with start/stop
20:17 <@rizen> but not until we fork for 7.4
20:18 <+MrAFKGrease> oh you didn't know yet?
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> procolix split in three divisions
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> sepearte companies
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> koen's keeping procolix
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> joeri's started oqapi
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> I've gone with Joeri
20:19 < xdanger> I could contribute our unfinished Finnish-language...
20:20 <@rizen> xdanger: more than happy to put it on the translation server, maybe you'll get some extra helpers to work on the translation
20:20 < xdanger> nice
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> rizen: I'll throw it in the group
20:20 < xdanger> I'll send it to you tomorrow in a tar
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> the translation server thing
20:20 <@rizen> no, i didn't know about the slip
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> I reckon everybody is ok with it
20:20 <@rizen> split
20:21 <@rizen> is everyone mad at eachother?
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> no
20:21 <@rizen> or is all well in dutch land?
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> all is well
20:21 <@rizen> that's good to hear
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> yeah
20:21 <@rizen> i assume koen is the hosting/server guy
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> as an added benefit there's beer in the fridge again
20:21 <@rizen> joeri is the dev guy
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> yeah
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> albert ha
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> albert now has his own testing company
20:22 <@rizen> cool
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> sure
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> I'm happy with it
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> no fights or whatever
20:22 <@rizen> beer in the fridge is good
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> just natural progression
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> it is
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> a pity that i only at the office one day a week
20:23 <@rizen> it goes without saying that if you're ever in need of a job, i've got your back
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> sure
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> I'm very busy with starting to do my graduation stuff
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> and will be for a year or so
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> but no worries
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> I won't abandon webgui
20:24 <@rizen> so, does oqapi have some spare resources?
20:24 <@rizen> i think we're going to need to outsource a project or two coming up
20:24 <+MrAFKGrease> maybe
20:24 <@rizen> actually...what's joeri's email address
20:24 <+MrAFKGrease> ask joeri
20:25 <@rizen> i'll just have vrby contact him
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> joeri aat oqapi dot nl
20:25 <@rizen> coolio
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> gotta go cooking
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> see ya
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--- Log opened Sun Jan 07 20:56:17 2007
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21:02 <+MrHairgrease> jt
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> two suggestions
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> 1) in our ducth translation server we default to the textarea
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> the htmlarea adds to much crap
21:03 <@rizen> you can set it however you want
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> you get buttons containing texts like Save<br />
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> I know
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> just a suggestion
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> also I hacked the thing to include 'motivational' status stuff
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> see http://geefmegeld.nl/root/vertaal
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> for examples
21:04 <@rizen> do you have the source
21:04 <@rizen> oh crap
21:04 <@rizen> nevermind
21:05 <@rizen> yours is based upon the old translation server
21:05 <@rizen> i'll have to write it from scratch
21:06 <+MrHairgrease> it's trivial to implement
21:06 <@rizen> yeah
21:06 <+MrHairgrease> I know the dutch translation team liked it a lot though
21:06 <@rizen> i'll do it
21:07 <+MrHairgrease> cool
21:07 <@rizen> yeah
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> the commit to svn function is for countering vandalism?
21:09 <@rizen> yes
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> ok
21:09 <@rizen> well partially
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> we were afraid for that
21:09 <@rizen> also for going back in case of screwups
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> that's why we put the i18n thing behind a realm
21:10 <+MrHairgrease> also that helps consistency
21:10 <+MrHairgrease> brb
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> consistency as in translate this word with that one
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> english -> dutch is not exactly non-abiguous =)
21:11 <@rizen> true true
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> so we set up a word list on webgui.nl
21:12 <@rizen> the problem is that most communities
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
21:12 <@rizen> unlike the dutch team
21:12 <@rizen> are disjointed and small
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> i'm babbling right now =)
21:12 <@rizen> so we really need to allow lots of people to join in the translation process
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> sure enough
21:12 <@rizen> that's why we can't password protect it
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> i think so too
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> I'll propose the thing
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> you'll hear the result
21:13 <@rizen> k
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> regardless of that a very recent version is tarred up in the contrib area on pb.com
21:13 <@rizen> yeah, i'm not worried about that
21:13 <@rizen> more that the dutch translation is a good example of
21:14 <@rizen> "how it's done"
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> meaning?
21:14 <@rizen> you guys are the defacto international leaders
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> i know
21:14 <@rizen> you do everything first, and best
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> comes with the territory =)
21:14 <@rizen> martin: sarah says hi
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> somehow there's just a big wg-user density in the netherlands
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> hi sarah
22:02 <@rizen> motivators in place
22:15 < Klaus_> Where/in which Asset are the promote/demote icons/functionality used in WebGUI?
22:15 <@rizen> all assets use them
22:15 < Klaus_> where do they show up?
22:16 <@rizen> inherited from the superclass
22:16 <@rizen> the icons aren't used anymore, only the functionality
22:16 <@rizen> the icons are now only used by some assets for their collateral
22:17 < Klaus_> OK, I thought I'm blind ;-)
22:17 <@rizen> the promote/demote stuff can be found under the class icon of any asset
22:17 <@rizen> in the inline view
22:27 < Klaus_> OK, thanks - I've found them(data form fields)... For translating it's good to see the text/tooltip in its environment.
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> cool jt
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> would it also be possible to display the actual number of messages that are done/changed/new
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> just like in the example
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> There seems to be a bug too
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> RedNeck / Form_Captcha
22:53 <@rizen> what's the point of showing the actual numbers? it's just a feelgood indicator, right?
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> sure
22:53 <@rizen> gives you an idea of how close you are to done
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> still only one to go
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> i you'll do it right you use the actual number of characters or something
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> but that would be insane
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> i just used the number of messages
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> The RedNeck / Form_Captcha is saying it's at 50% but it is actually at 0% btw
22:56 <@rizen> yeah, that's your fault
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> what have i done?
22:57 <@rizen> it just couldn't be my fault
22:57 <@rizen> cuz i'm perfect
22:57 <@rizen> so it must be you
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> oh
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> i c
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> in that case it's Koens fault
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> we agreed on that a year ago or so
22:58 <@rizen> that's true
22:58 <@rizen> ok
22:58 <@rizen> his fault
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> =)
23:03 <@rizen> koen's bug is fixed
23:07 <+MrHairgrease> very good
23:08 <@rizen> so with the percentages
23:08 <@rizen> would you rather see 6/50
23:08 <@rizen> rather than the percentages
23:08 <@rizen> i just don't want to waste a lot of screen realestate
23:10 <@rizen> i just put it in
23:10 <@rizen> and it looks much uglier
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> that's why i put the percentages on the left side
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> and all teh other data on the right
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> if you don't scroll you don't see it
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> it's just for the eager people
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> another idea might be to put de numbers on top of the right hand frame
23:12 <@rizen> your mom's a nitpicker
23:12 <@rizen> and she dresses you funny
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> and the percentages on the lft hand side
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> that's true
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> how'd you figure that out
23:14 <@rizen> alright, i put the ratio on the right now
23:14 <@rizen> and on the detail page
23:14 <+MrHairgrease> ok
23:14 <+MrHairgrease> that looks cool
23:15 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
23:15 <@rizen> thank you for smoking
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23:57 < Radix__> funny movie that one
--- Day changed Mon Jan 08 2007
00:09 <+MrAFKGrease> which movie?
00:10 <@rizen> thank you for smoking
00:11 <+MrAFKGrease> is that a movie?
00:11 <@rizen> yup
00:11 <+MrAFKGrease> the things you learn after 2300
00:20 < Klaus_> sounds like I should have a look at the movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0427944/
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02:54 <+perlDreamer> any clues on how to find out what this is:
02:54 <+perlDreamer> has posted to one of your subscriptions
02:54 <+perlDreamer>   http://www.plainblack.com/Cm61332q9p9Sv_BxrjyXnQ
02:54 <+perlDreamer> It's from noReply@plainblack.com
02:54 <@rizen> is it reported as a bug yet?
02:55 <@rizen> if not, then no
02:55 <@rizen> it's something i'm going to have to go through the database and try to find
02:55 < Radix-wrk> I got a couple of those too
02:55 <+perlDreamer> kind of
02:55 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/problems-with-emails-from-install/upgrade-forum#zGTWsPb2x0BybrTKHrJdzg
02:56 <+perlDreamer> although knowmad reports that he got a username, while this one was empty
02:56 <+perlDreamer> it's like a workflow didn't get set up right somehow but still executed
02:56 < Radix-wrk> I got two emails myself
02:56 <@rizen> probably depends on what was shooting out the email as to what gets put in the email
02:56 < Radix-wrk> plainblack.com
02:57 <@rizen> either way it's something that shouldn't be happening
02:57 <@rizen> if the bug is reported, then thats all you can do
02:57 <@rizen> we have to take over from there
02:58 <+perlDreamer> good luck!
02:58 <+perlDreamer> also, I like the new email on the dev list
02:58 <+perlDreamer> I'll start reading Perl/WebGUI Best Practices soon
02:58 <@rizen> glad to hear it
02:59 <+perlDreamer> do we have an expected time for the 7.4 branch?
02:59 <@rizen> each time you ask me that i add a week
02:59  * perlDreamer --
02:59 <@rizen> infinity + 2 weeks
03:00 <@rizen> thats when it will be happening
03:00 <+perlDreamer> bugList < 5?
03:00 <@rizen> infinity + 2 weeks, i've already told you
03:00 <@rizen> but since you formed that as a question
03:01 <@rizen> infinity + 3 weeks
03:01 <@rizen> so we have some amazing contests scheduled for this year
03:02 <@rizen> we're bringing back the webgui community contest (wcc)
03:02 <+perlDreamer> cool!
03:02 <+perlDreamer> there are other contests, too?
03:03 <@rizen> roy should be announcing the first one next week
03:03 <@rizen> no..the community contest is all of the contests
03:03 <@rizen> instead of being once per year
03:03 <@rizen> it's going to be once every 2 months
03:03 <@rizen> we were going to do it every month, but we figured that might not give people enough time to work on stuff
03:04 <+perlDreamer> even two months is pretty quick for some big projects
03:04 <@rizen> none of them will be very big
03:04 <@rizen> at least that's the plan
03:05 <@rizen> keep them reasonable to achieve
03:05 <+perlDreamer> did the content compression (which won the last WCC) ever get folded in?
03:05 <@rizen> that's a good question
03:05 <@rizen> i don't know
03:05 <@rizen> actually, i think no
03:05 <@rizen> because we decided to do something more efficient
03:05 <@rizen> which was adding gzip functionality to the wre
03:06 <@rizen> it's far more efficient than having webgui do it
03:06 <+perlDreamer> okay
03:06 <@rizen> if i remember right
03:06 <@rizen> when we benchmarked it
03:06 <@rizen> mod_deflate was 6 times faster
03:06 <@rizen> than the code in webgui
03:07 <@rizen> and on top of that, it compressed stuff in the /extras and /uploads folders as well
03:07 <+perlDreamer> that's a lot faster
03:13 <+perlDreamer> rizen: is there any sense in me working on the Product Asset docs?
03:14 <@rizen> for the time being, yes
03:14 <@rizen> because commerce dev is put on hold
03:15 <@rizen> until after we've achieved my new years resolution
03:15 <@rizen> even after that, the product asset will likely continue to have all of it's current features
03:15 <@rizen> it will just also tie into the commerce system
03:16 <+perlDreamer> cool, thanks
03:16 <+perlDreamer> as far as I know, there are still no project for $dayJob next week, so I'll have lots of time on my hands
03:16 <@rizen> sweet
03:17 <@rizen> use that time to read pbp
03:17 <@rizen> =)
03:17 <@rizen> at least until 7.4 is branched
03:18 <+perlDreamer> I was thinking about this: http://jobs.perl.org/job/5148
03:18 <+perlDreamer> so I'll be spending a little time writing a resume
03:20 <@rizen> nah, you don't want that job
03:20 <@rizen> they'll be paying you way too much
03:20 <@rizen> =)
03:21 <+perlDreamer> I saw that and figured the posting was some kind of joke
03:21 <+perlDreamer> I've never seen salaries like that before
03:21 <@rizen> when i used to work for $bigCompany I made $that++
03:22 <+perlDreamer> not only is the salary too high, but there'd be no interstitial times for wG hackery
03:22 <@rizen> they're going to want a lot out of someone
03:22 <@rizen> for that much money
03:22 <@rizen> cuz usually when you get that high in salary
03:23 <@rizen> either they're expecting you to do 2 jobs +
03:23 <@rizen> or it's a management job
03:23 <@rizen> and the job description isn't a management job
03:23 <+perlDreamer> yeah
03:24 <+perlDreamer> All the percentages add up to 100, but it doesn't talk about hours/days
03:24 <@rizen> it also doesn't talk about how many other people you'd be working with to do that job
03:24 <@rizen> it could be that the current owner dood
03:24 <@rizen> does all the work
03:24 <@rizen> and needs to offload it to someone
03:24 <@rizen> so he can do the new software
03:25 <@rizen> but for that much money
03:25 <@rizen> you should check it out at least
03:25 <+perlDreamer> yeah
03:25 <+perlDreamer> hack perl
03:25 <+perlDreamer> stay at home
03:25 <+perlDreamer> let Kathy go to mid-wife school
03:25 <+perlDreamer> get done in 3 years
03:25 <+perlDreamer> instead of 7
03:30 <+perlDreamer> dinner time, be back later
04:24 <@rizen> svn commits for the translation server are now in place
04:29 < Klaus_> good thing. what's the meaning of a yellow line background in the right window?
04:30 <@rizen> that means there's something there, but it's out of date
04:34 < Klaus_> it seems you've also found a solution for the annoying trailing <br /> from the rich editor
04:34 <@rizen> you mean, allow the user to disable it?
04:38 < Klaus_> they were not longer automatically added at the end of a (singe line) translation or was it luck when I tested it
04:39 <@rizen> probably luck
04:39 < Klaus_> :-)
04:39 < Klaus_> OK, was a long day. Time for bed. 
04:39 <@rizen> later
04:40 < Klaus_> not for me...
04:40 <@rizen> i mean, see you later
04:41 < Klaus_> ohh. yes. bye!
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05:21 <+perlDreamer> rizen: Want to do some bug triage?  You up for it?
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19:31 <@khenn> happy monday!
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19:36 <@preaction-m> snapcount: /msg chanserv access #webgui add preaction 30 <-- do it! :p
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19:38 <@snapcount> tada
19:38 <@snapcount> np
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21:05 <@khenn> anything going on today?
21:05 <@preaction-m> alumni project, i've got a few ideas about some ease-of-use for developers
21:06 <@preaction-m> a nice script i want to make for switching between webgui instances on a dev box
21:17 < ckotil> coo
21:17 < ckotil> l
21:18 < ckotil> We have a database that contains all of the contact info for customers, logins, etc...
21:18 < ckotil> I would like for webgui's user list to be pulled from that database. How hard is that to do?
21:19 <@preaction-m> you could write a custom auth plugin
21:19 < ckotil> already use one.
21:19 < ckotil> for CAS
21:20 < ckotil> 'central authentication system' developed at yale. then we put our own spin on it
21:20 < ckotil> but it works nicely with webgui
21:20 < ckotil> but i want my users to be pulled from our database. how would i populate webgui's user list?
21:21 <@preaction-m> you want to migrate?
21:21 < ckotil> no. i want to have a single location to store my customers info
21:21 < ckotil> and users.
21:22 < ckotil> its all in a single database now.
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> you mean sync profiles with that db?
21:22 < ckotil> exactly
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> you should have a look at the syncldapprofile workflow activities
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> there are two
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> one is called when a user activates him/herself
21:23 < ckotil> ldap. k thats what i was thinking. ill go speak with my db guy . thanks
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> the other is run by the cron workflow
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> if you don't have ldap available
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> just create your own plugin
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> and use the ldap as example
21:24 < ckotil> good deal. 
21:24 <+MrHairgrease> it is
21:24 <+MrHairgrease> =)
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> reuse is the best eufemism for legal stealing
21:25 <@preaction-m> it's not illegal if you release the source
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> that's why i said legal
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> not illegal
21:26 <@preaction-m> in fact, the viral nature of the GPL requires that any custom code you write for webgui has to be released upon request
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> only code you distribute
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> and i can charge for the code
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> or better said
21:27 <@preaction-m> no, anything that works with webgui must be released under the GPL
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> the deliverance cost o
21:27 <@preaction-m> but yes, you can charge for it
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> of the code
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> gpl is a distribution license
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> so if i keep the stuff inhouse
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> i don't have to release it
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> now of course
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> fo webgui this is not a problem at all
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> everything you distribute
21:28 <@preaction-m> and since PB distributes WebGUI with it, you must abide by it, one of the caveats of it is that anything you write that uses WebGUI must be GPL
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> ships with the source automatically
21:28 <@preaction-m> that's why i usually release code under the LGPL
21:28 <@preaction-m> doesn't have the over-reaching viral nature of the GPL
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> yes
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> but if you write your auth thingy
21:29 <@preaction-m> it uses webgui's API, which means you must GPL
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> and just dploy it at your work only
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> i cannot ask for the code
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> b/c you don't distribute it
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> under the section 'common misconceptions'
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> first item
21:34 <@preaction-m> the last paragraph of the GPL seems to indicate my position, but it's ambiguous and misleading
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> yeah 
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> those damn hippie software developers =)
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> the gpl vs. lgpl thing is much less of an issue
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> with perl code
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> since when you distribute
21:40 <@preaction-m> indeed... hippie and nerd seem mutually exclusive
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> you always ship the code
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> huh?
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> have you ever seen a picture of rms?
21:41 <+MrHairgrease> now if that isn't a hippie =)
21:41 <@preaction-m> yes, i needed eye bleach
22:24 <@khenn> You can build and sell plugins for WebGUI w/o it violating the GPL
22:25 <@khenn> if you add anything to WebGUI's core, you cannot legally repackage and sell it w/o contributing it back
22:25 <@khenn> that's the difference
22:25 <+MrHairgrease> b/c plugins are not linked againstr the core?
22:25 <@preaction-m> you can sell the plugin, but not bundled with webgui, unless your plugin is also licensed GPL
22:25 <@khenn> right
22:26 <@preaction-m> the wikipedia article cleared all that crap up for me
22:29 <@khenn> I updated the Asset installer so that you can use .tmpl files rather than having to hardcode your templates right in the install code at the bottom
22:30 <@khenn> well not the Asset installer
22:30 <@khenn> but the code at the bottom of the Asset Template
22:30 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
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22:30 <@khenn> I haven't added it yet
22:30 <@khenn> b/c it's like 200 extra lines of code
22:30 <@khenn> oh, it also commits all the templates so you don't have tags from "visitor"
22:30 <@khenn> which is pretty confusing
22:30 <@preaction-m> I like the updater more, the template editor inside webgui is clunky :p
22:31 <@khenn> yeah, it's nice to work with files
22:31 <@khenn> and then just -MWebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject update
22:31 <@khenn> or I think I had to call it upgrade
22:31 <@khenn> b/c of naming conflicts
22:32 <@khenn> but if anyone wants the code, I'll be happy to post it somewhere
22:32 <@khenn> I think we will eventually add an install API to WebGUI
22:32 <@preaction-m> you could use a seperate package inside the module, say WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install, then have the subs be part of that
22:33 <@preaction-m> so you'd "use WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject;" and then call "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install::update"
22:33 <@khenn> yeah I dunno
22:35 <@khenn> ok so who is everyone out here?  I know some of you
22:35 <@khenn> MrHairgrease is obvious =p
22:35 <@khenn> perlDreamer is Colin, right?
22:35 <@preaction-m> radix is Jesse
22:35 <+perlDreamer> yup
22:35 <@khenn> ok
22:35 <@khenn> this is Frank btw
22:35 <+MrHairgrease> xdanger is yukka
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> he is this dude from Finland
22:36 <@khenn> right
22:36 < xdanger> Jukka
22:36 <@preaction-m> PedersenMJ is a walk-in, iirc
22:36 <@preaction-m> perlbot botsnack
22:36 < perlbot> whatever.
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> sry
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> I meant Jukka
22:37 <+perlDreamer> howdy frank
22:38 <@khenn> howdy
22:38 <+perlDreamer> haven't seen you in here before
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> now that everybody is here anyway
22:38 <@khenn> I'm usually rizzo
22:38 <@khenn> I've been here
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> what do you think?
22:38 <@khenn> but someone stole my nick
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> tabs or spaces
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> and how many
22:38 <@khenn> spaces
22:38 <+perlDreamer> 4 spaces
22:38 <@khenn> 4
22:38 <+perlDreamer> ala PBP
22:38 <@khenn> I usually use 3
22:38 <@khenn> but I can hack 4
22:39 <@preaction-m> i've already updated my vimrc to do 4-space tabs
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> you guys are insane =)
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> tabs are obviously the way
22:39 <+perlDreamer> you can always use perltidy to locally reformat it
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> _teh_ way *
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> no
22:39 <@khenn> tabs are too modern =)
22:39 <@preaction-m> i'd prefer 8, and tabs instead os spaces, but vim does this automagically so it's no skin off my nose
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> but the idea is that everybody uses the same convention
22:39 <@khenn> most languages use spaces
22:40 <+MrHairgrease> or tabs
22:40 < xdanger> tabs ;)
22:40 <+MrHairgrease> most lanuages don't care
22:40 < xdanger> python does... ?
22:40 <+perlDreamer> I think so, just to determine level of indentation
22:41 <+perlDreamer> since whitespace matter in python
22:41  * perlDreamer shudders
22:41 <@khenn> I'm talking C++ (which is the only REAL language) =p
22:41 <+MrHairgrease> ouch
22:41 <@preaction-m> pfft... use C
22:41 <@khenn> well PERL is essentially C
22:41 < xdanger> But does it do some s/    /\t/; kinda stuff also =)
22:41 <@khenn> so ...
22:41 <@khenn> Ansi C?
22:41 <@khenn> ha
22:41 <@preaction-m> perlbot capital
22:41 <+MrHairgrease> anybody using emacs here? =)
22:41 <@preaction-m> perlbot capital Perl
22:41 < perlbot> Perl is the language, perl is the program, there is no PERL.  See perldoc -q 'difference between'.
22:41 <+perlDreamer> vim is the way
22:42 < ckotil> heh, nano/pico
22:42 <@khenn> my capslock got stuck =p
22:42 <+perlDreamer> so who is ckotil in real life?
22:42 < ckotil> me
22:42 < ckotil> o
22:42 < ckotil> chad kotil
22:42 <@preaction-m> i will give serious props to those who can program efficiently in nano
22:42 < ckotil> im not efficient
22:42 <+MrHairgrease> I always use vim in ed mode =)
22:43 < ckotil> emacs and vi confuse me
22:43 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease:  It's a good start.  It's like drinking light American Beer.
22:43 <+perlDreamer> instead of the real thing
22:43 < ckotil> ive learned emacs in the past, but then a couple months went by and i forgot all the shit
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> what's good about that?
22:43 <+perlDreamer> at leasty you're drinking beer
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> I once tried emacs
22:43 < ckotil> light beer is like fucking in a row boat
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> and couldn't get out of the help screen
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> kill -9 did the job though
22:44 < ckotil> its fucking pretty close to water.
22:44 <+perlDreamer> I couldn't figure out how to quit emacs
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> i also tried light beer once
22:44 <@preaction-m> lol ckotil 
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> on the first wuc
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> that was a onetimer too
22:44 < ckotil> exactly you need a cheat sheet 
22:45 <@khenn> Someday I'll be all Linuxish like you guys, but until then I like my GUI windows crap
22:45 <@preaction-m> the secret to vim is a good vimrc
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> so use eclypse
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> eclipse
22:45 <@preaction-m> and i need to get frank into vim at least, or barring that a decent editor (not Homesite...)
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> prereaction-m++
22:45 <@preaction-m> jEdit would suffice
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> vim sucks the first day
22:46 <@khenn> I can use vim
22:46 <@khenn> I just prefer not to
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> but after that you cannot live without oit
22:46 <+perlDreamer> use gvim, it will let you keep a GUI
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> use whatever you like
22:46 <@khenn> I enjoy my dev tools like split screens and line numbers
22:46 <@preaction-m> vim has those
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> set number
22:46 <@preaction-m> ctrl+w n <- split the window
22:47 <@preaction-m> ctrl+w <down arrow> move to window down, <up arrow> move to window up, etc...
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> and besides
22:47 <@preaction-m> use :h C-w <- for more information
22:47 <@khenn> as opposed to simply pressing the split screen icon?
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> who can work with an editor that cannot navigate with hjkl
22:47 <@khenn> I have enough to remember =p
22:47 <@preaction-m> exactly
22:48 <@preaction-m> it's about creating instincts, like PBP
22:48 <@preaction-m> like using screen, or any program for that matter
22:48 <@preaction-m> i'm using my newly paid-for Parallels to finally make the complete switch to vim, from jedit
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> oh
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> so your on a mac
22:49 <@preaction-m> macbook pro. the first laptop i've actually liked
22:49 < ckotil> they're nic
22:49 < ckotil> e
22:49 < ckotil> i work on a new imac core2duo
22:49 < ckotil> 21" widescreen
22:49 <@preaction-m> nice
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> they're too expensive for me
22:49 < ckotil> im trying to get hooked up with a macbook
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> but i bought a vaio
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> from the evil sony empire
22:50 < ckotil> fukcing heater is on for no reason.
22:50 -!- ckotil [n=newtrino@snare.grnoc.iu.edu] has quit ["HOT"]
22:50 <@preaction-m> this is the company's lappy, otherwise I'd be on my old-school AMDk7 2800+ running Ubuntu Edgy
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> i run a 1800+
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> with kubuntu though
22:51 <+perlDreamer> gotta run to a meeting
22:51 <+perlDreamer> be back later
22:51 <@khenn> ok, so how do I turn on color coding in vim?
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> later
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22:51 <+perlDreamer_afk> :syn on
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> syntax on
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> same thing
22:52 <@khenn> how do I unsplit the damn screen now?
22:52 <@preaction-m> :q
22:53 <@khenn> ok well screen splitting sucked =p
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> complain more
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> so what ide thing do you use then frank?
22:54 <@khenn> I use Homesite mostly
22:54 <@khenn> one step up from a text editor
22:54 <@khenn> just the way I like it
22:54 <@khenn> an old version too
22:54 <@khenn> not the crap they have out now
22:54 <@khenn> 4.5
22:54 <@khenn> can you undo in vim?
22:55 <@khenn> that would be useful to know
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> u
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> im vim 7 you can also say
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> :earlier 10s
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> which will get you back 10 secs in time
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> or later: 1h
22:55 <@khenn> will that do all of the work I will do over the next hour?
22:55 <@khenn> that would be pretty sweet
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> something like that
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> if your drunk =)
22:56 <@khenn> I'll just do later: 8h and take the day off
22:56 <@khenn> =)
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> maybe jt will buy it
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> that's how i do my job
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:57 <@khenn> I have vim 6.3
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> that only supports u
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> :help undo
23:09 < xdanger> I use subethaedit =P
23:09 < xdanger> on mu 3 years old ibook 1G
23:09 < xdanger> on my
23:10 <@khenn> I use windows.  I'm just uncool like that
23:10 <+MrHairgrease> we know =)
23:11 < xdanger> I've been planning to move to gvim7, but it's not quite there yet... on the matter of mac os x integration..
--- Day changed Tue Jan 09 2007
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00:46 <+perlDreamer> boy it got quiet all of a sudden
00:48 <@khenn> yeah
00:48 <@khenn> I said the 'W' word
00:48 <+perlDreamer> are you staying busy?
00:49 <@khenn> yes
00:49 <@khenn> we are very busy right now
00:49 <@khenn> how bout yourself?
00:49 <@khenn> I hear you are on vacation or something?
00:49 <+perlDreamer> we're inbetween projects, so I'm way bored
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> you are bored?
00:50 <+perlDreamer> muy
00:50 <+perlDreamer> mucho
00:50 <+perlDreamer> zehr
00:50 <+perlDreamer> very
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> i've been reading papers all day
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> it's really boredom
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> but some weird kind of numbness
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> it's sehr btw
00:51 <+perlDreamer> thanks
00:51 <+perlDreamer> I only speak German, not write it
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> i usually only read it
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> when i speak german
00:52 <+perlDreamer> are you reading papers for your school project?
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> germans usually do not understand me 
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> graduation 
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> i just started
00:52 < Klaus_> wyh try you not to be understood?
00:52 <+perlDreamer> His American accent throws him off
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> i try very hard to be understood
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> and sometimes i succed
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> but usually my girlfriend hijacks the conversation
00:53 < Klaus_> I have no problems with my German...
00:53 < Klaus_> OK - sometimes...
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> she's better at foreign languages i guess
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00:53 <+MrHairgrease> only in oktober right?=)
00:54 < Klaus_> all the year- and right now...
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> i see
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> you know what
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> i'm gonna get me my own dutch speech impedimen
00:55 < Klaus_> what's a impedimen?
00:55 <+perlDreamer> impediment
00:55 <+perlDreamer> difficulty
00:55 <+perlDreamer> disability
00:55 < Klaus_> Ah.
00:56 < Klaus_> to improove your 
00:56 < Klaus_> German
00:56 <+MrHairgrease> actually to improve my belgian
00:56 < Klaus_> do you like to help on Webgui translation? ;-)
00:56 <+MrHairgrease> whatever
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> nein
00:57 < Klaus_> Damn!
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> verdammt!
00:57 < Klaus_> Sehr gut!
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> genau
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> now if we only had jukka to flabbergast us with some Finnish the evening would be perfect
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> =)
00:58 < Klaus_> Webgui is missing a babelfish function.
00:58 <+perlDreamer> Porque no hablamon in Espanol?
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> No man
00:59 <+MrHairgrease> I don't speak no portugese =)
00:59 <+perlDreamer> Not Spanish either? :)
00:59 <@khenn> I fluently speak every language except for Greek
00:59 < Klaus_> I gave Spain a chance some years ago.
00:59 <+MrHairgrease> never been there
01:00 <+MrHairgrease> did you like it?
01:01 < Klaus_> The langauge. Yes. But you mentioined: girls are better in languages.
01:01 <+MrHairgrease> my girl is
01:01 <+MrHairgrease> compared to me
01:02 < Klaus_> she has adopted Perl Best Practices to foreign languages?
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> i'm better in babling
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> so i'm better at perl
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> =)
01:04 <+MrHairgrease> my guess is she doesn't even wan to touch the book
01:04 <+MrHairgrease> anybody read the Perl Hacks book btw?
01:04 < Klaus_> i can imagine.
01:04 <+perlDreamer> Went to the author's presentation at OSCON last year.
01:04 <+perlDreamer> Does that count?
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> don't think so
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> I like it a lot though
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> the book that is
01:05 < Klaus_> Not right now in my bookshelf
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01:08 < Klaus_> I've just ordered it at the library. 
01:08 <+MrHairgrease> cool
01:09 < Klaus_> Author is Conway - he worte the book on oject oriented perl?
01:09 <+perlDreamer> Author is chromatic
01:09 <+MrHairgrease> indeed
01:10 <+MrHairgrease> conway wrote oop
01:10 <+MrHairgrease> and pbp iirc
01:10 <+perlDreamer> yup
01:11 < Klaus_> Oh - it's the German translation I've ordered.
01:15 < Klaus_> anyone read Extreme Perl? http://www.extremeperl.org/
01:15 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:15 < Klaus_> I had a look on it some yers ago, but it seems still to be not yet completed.
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> but hey
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> it's free
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> =)
01:19 < Klaus_> I wanted to print the pdf version. Downloaded the pdf A4 version but it was in Letter format.
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> no big deal
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> just sloppy
01:19 < Klaus_> I had a HP printer that needed pressing a button after each page...
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> that does suck
01:40 < xdanger> Klaus_: http://www.extremeperl.org/f/extremeperl-a4.pdf
01:41 < xdanger> the link in the pages still point to letter version...
01:44 < Klaus_> things never will change. world stands still. sometimes ;-)
01:44 < Klaus_> I remember I had emailed that to the author.
02:00 <+MrHairgrease> later guys
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02:00 <+perlDreamer> Klaus_: did you get any farther on the nested macro bug on your end?
02:02 < Klaus_> No yet. No time, I had to do a lot of other stuff today. xsl-fo/pdf hacking. Will last for a fiew days.
02:02 <+perlDreamer> You know xsl-fo?
02:03 < Klaus_> yep.
02:03 < Klaus_> and svg
02:03 <+perlDreamer> I've been wanting to make a PDF of the online wG help, but everything I've tried is either proprietary or bad.
02:04 <+perlDreamer> Do you have any pointers for someone wanting to start with xsl-fo?
02:05 < Klaus_> install fop, for documentation use http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/compliance.html some often wanted features are not yet supported.
02:07 < Klaus_> producing pdf out of the dokus with fop/xsl-fo I can help.
02:11 < Klaus_> having your all-in-one help file as a valid and well formed xml file it will be easy.
02:13 <+perlDreamer> most of it is XHTML clean
02:13 <+perlDreamer> so going the next step to XML should be easy
02:20 <+perlDreamer> time for me to go home
02:20 < Klaus_> some small modifications and then perhaps tidfying will prepare the xml source. I will try do make a pdf prototype tomorrow or the next day.
02:20 <+perlDreamer> tomorrow? That would be awesome!
02:20 <+perlDreamer> thanks Klaus!
02:20 < Klaus_> me too. time for bed. its 1:30
02:21 <+perlDreamer> Gute Nacht
02:21 < Klaus_> Danke. Wünsche ich Dir auch.
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18:41 <+perlDreamer> morning, all
18:41 <@rizen_afk> morning
18:42 -!- rizen_afk is now known as rizen
18:42 <+perlDreamer> did you read Ehab's post to the new year's resolution?
18:43 <@rizen> not yet, let me check
18:44 <@rizen> blah blah blah
18:44 <@rizen> it's the same shit he's always spouting off about
18:45 <@khenn> I got 2 sentences in and decided it was a waste of time to continue
18:45 <@rizen> the second half is more interesting
18:45 <+perlDreamer> I didn't get what he said about extending the free hosting period.
18:45 <@rizen> he's talking about the demo
18:45 <+perlDreamer> oh
18:46 <+perlDreamer> for bug fixing, it would be nice to have a more persistent demo, but it's something that can also be scripted for a dev.
18:47 <@rizen> the problem with it is that we get 1200 new demos per day
18:47 <@rizen> and when a new release comes out that's more like 2000 new demos per day
18:48 <@rizen> so there's a disk usage component there
18:48 <@rizen> in addition, and this is the bigger one
18:48 <@rizen> spammers like to use the free demo area to upload pages to use in their spam bots
18:48 <+perlDreamer> oy
18:48 <@rizen> by cleaning them up every tday we eliminate that
18:48 <+perlDreamer> maybe we should have a captcha for demo creation
18:49 <@rizen> captcha isn't foolproof
18:49 <@rizen> maybe it would help
18:49 <+perlDreamer> you're right
18:49 <@rizen> but honestly, there's no reason to expand the demo that i can see
18:49 <@rizen> he said we should do it
18:49 <@rizen> but he didn't say wy
18:49 <@rizen> why
18:49 <@rizen> why would making the demo sites stick around longer increase community
18:50 <@khenn> I read it
18:50 <@rizen> i'll respond to him later
18:50 <+perlDreamer> you're already doing docs
18:50 <@rizen> i have to think of a nice way to say "no fucking way" to the wre suggestion he made
18:51 <@preaction-m> it wouldn't work for the WRE, but it would be possible for someone to maintain a package-managed version of the WebGUI source
18:51 <@rizen> the whole reason we've made the wre is that making packages for every platform is rediculously time consuming
18:51 <+perlDreamer> would it be possible to reduce the WRE to a set of configs and scripts only?
18:51 <@rizen> right, "someone"
18:51 <@rizen> but that someone is not us
18:51 <@preaction-m> exactly
18:51 <@khenn> right
18:52 <@khenn> I do think there should be an installer
18:52 <@preaction-m> well, not officially us. maybe me if i get bored one night
18:52 <@khenn> possibly install anywhere or something like that
18:52 <@rizen> perlDreamer: yes it is, but then installing the wre becomes amazingly difficult
18:52 <@khenn> not sure if there's a free one of those
18:52 <@rizen> because every system is different
18:52 <@rizen> frank, the new wre will have an installer
18:52 <@rizen> i've already said that
18:53 <@rizen> in my new years resolution
18:53 <@rizen> but it will be a home-brew one
18:53 <@rizen> because there isn't a good free cross-platform one out there
18:53 <@rizen> plus, i want it written in perl
18:54 <@khenn> ah
18:54 <@preaction-m> CGI or CLI?
18:54 <@khenn> home brew!
18:54 <@rizen> it will be cgi
18:54 <@rizen> or more probably, POE/CGI
18:54 <@preaction-m> oooooh
18:54 <@khenn> it won't be cool unless it has a splash screen =p
18:54 <+perlDreamer> oh, Steve...!
18:55 <@rizen> it will have a splash screen...that photo of me with the axe that i took for colin
18:55 <@rizen> that will be the splash screen
18:55 <@preaction-m> some ominous text "Your Web Solution Executes Now!"
18:55 <+perlDreamer> "He didn't use WebGUI."
18:56 <@khenn> "Please wait as we assimilate your system"
18:58 <@rizen> getting back to the wre without prereqs thing for a second
18:58 <@rizen> the whole idea of the wre is to give the "it just works" factor to webgui
18:58 <@rizen> the wre without prereqs will require the user to install 10 billion things
18:59 <@rizen> there's no sense of 'it just works' with that
18:59 <+perlDreamer> that's true
19:00 <+perlDreamer> and hackers can always extract the configs and scripts if they want to stay with disti-level software
19:00 <@khenn> unless we figure out a way to allow people to install / upgrade without having to do anything but type some stuff in, there will always be peopl who "can't figure it out"
19:00 <+perlDreamer> shouldn't the use hosted solutions?
19:00 <@khenn> ie ehab's request
19:00 <+perlDreamer> "shouldn't they"
19:00 <@khenn> yum WebGUI
19:00 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:01 <+perlDreamer> or apt-get WebGUI
19:01 <+perlDreamer> yast WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> right
19:01 <+perlDreamer> emerge WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> fuckinginstall WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> I like that one
19:01 <+perlDreamer> exactly
19:01 <@khenn> =)
19:01 <+perlDreamer> disti level package management kills us in the ISV arena
19:01 <@khenn> if it's homebrewed, we can make it work
19:03 <@khenn> 1) download WebGUIsetup7-3-4.pl
19:03 <@khenn> 2) make sure you are root
19:04 <@khenn> 3) run ./WebGUIsetup7-3-4
19:04 <@khenn> 4) done
19:04 <@khenn> something along those lines
19:05 <@preaction-m> i believe there already is an emerge WebGUI (but it might be outdated)
19:05 <+perlDreamer> but does it setup MySQL and apache like the WRE?
19:06 <@preaction-m> durno, i hate gentoo
19:06 <+perlDreamer> I'm not fond of it either
19:06 <+perlDreamer> all those poor electrons being sacrificed to compile the same software over and over
19:06 <+perlDreamer> it's a waste
19:07 <@rizen> nothing out there does what the wre does
19:07 <@rizen> the wre isn't just the utility scripts
19:07 <@rizen> it's also the way we compile stuff
19:07 <@rizen> we compile out the stuff you don't need
19:07 <@rizen> so that you just have exactly what you do need
19:08 <@rizen> then we configure it all such that it's pretuned to work for webgui
19:08 <@rizen> in the best way possible
19:08 <@rizen> for most situations
19:08 <@rizen> and then on top of all that
19:08 <@rizen> we give you some nifty utilities to make day to day administration easier
19:09 <@rizen> no matter how much we worked on individual package systems
19:09 <@rizen> we wouldn't get what we have with the wre
19:09 <@rizen> because we would have to use their precompiled versions of things
19:09 <@rizen> or we'd have to fight with their precompiled versions of thigns
19:09 <@rizen> either way...not as good
19:10 <@rizen> and on top of that
19:10 <@rizen> we'd have all the dev time
19:10 <@rizen> building out tthe package management system
19:10 <@rizen> for every environment
19:10 <@rizen> rather than taking the slackware approach
19:10 <@rizen> of just giving them a tarball that works
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20:26 <+perlDreamer> preaction-m: you around?
20:26 <@preaction-m> yes'm
20:27 <+perlDreamer> Have you fixed the gateway problem in the new Calendar?
20:27 <@preaction-m> i'm not sure, it's not in the Event object that I can see
20:27 <@preaction-m> I added a "url" key to the getTemplateVars method
20:28 <@preaction-m> i've got to look through the Calendar itself and see if it's the one doing it
20:28 <+perlDreamer> okay, Kristi posted a bug about it, and I was thinking that if you'd already fixed and committed we could close it
20:28 <@preaction-m> but before then I have to write a script to help me switch between webgui sources (I've got like three that I need to constantly switch between, it's getting annoying)
20:29 <@preaction-m> yup, it's my current priority until John messages me back about his 7.x upgrade
20:30 <+perlDreamer> cool.
20:30 <+perlDreamer> Once I finish this CentOS demo at work, I can spend the rest of the day doing wG hackery.
20:30 <@preaction-m> word
20:30 <@preaction-m> does anyone still have that list of bugs that need to be fixed before 7.3 can go stable? there's now a lot of stuff in 7.3 that people are clamoring for
20:31 <+perlDreamer> I think Roy may have posted it to the dev list
20:31 <+perlDreamer> check the archives
20:31 <@preaction-m> k
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20:39 <+perlDreamer> are we scheduled for a 7.3.4 tomorrow, or are we holding off?
20:39 <@snapcount> tomorrow morning
20:39 <@snapcount> preaction-m is doing the release this week
20:40 <@snapcount> cross-training++
20:40 <+perlDreamer> I'll pray for him
20:40 <+perlDreamer> releases aren't easy
20:40 <@snapcount> heh, it's an adventure
20:40 <+perlDreamer> you've done some automation for them?
20:40 <@snapcount> yeah it's automated quite a bit
20:41 <@snapcount> preparing svn can be tricky when there's a branch
20:41 <@snapcount> but this release will be pretty easy
20:42  * perlDreamer chomps at the bit for 7.4
20:42 <+perlDreamer> I would like to be an RFE fiend for 7.4
20:42 <+perlDreamer> get rid of the last few remaining javascript-less confirmation screens
20:42 <+perlDreamer> Help system improvements
20:45 <+perlDreamer> all pending approval, of course
20:47 <@khenn> you can always add it locally and wait to check it in ...
20:47 <@khenn> I guess that gets kinda mess though with merges and such
20:47 <+perlDreamer> yeah, plus I'm overhauling the docs all the time
20:47 <+perlDreamer> I could make a separate branch just for that, thought
20:48 <+perlDreamer> I was only able to carve out 1 Gb for $dayJob hackery
20:48 <@preaction-m> and just merge on tuesdays?
20:50 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't really matter when you merge, although frequently is better than infrequently
20:50 <@snapcount> I believe all of the JS confirmation RFE's came from JT
20:50 <@preaction-m> indeed
20:50 <@snapcount> so they are approved
20:50 <+perlDreamer> JT typed them in from SourceForge
20:50 <+perlDreamer> so they have his ID
20:50 <@snapcount> oh I see
20:50 <@snapcount> I thought they made a user called sourceforge for that
20:51 <@snapcount> in any case, just post to dev and say I want to commit RFE x, y, z
20:51 <@snapcount> we trust your code
20:51 <@snapcount> =)
20:52 <@snapcount> I'm sure the response will be "ok"
20:52 <@preaction-m> he has svn access, i sure hope you trust his code :p
20:52 <+perlDreamer> fe@r my l33t hacking skillz
20:52 <@snapcount> of course we need a stinking branch
20:52 <@snapcount> and before that we need a stinking stable release
20:52 <@snapcount> sigh*
20:52 <@snapcount> vicious cycle
20:53 <@preaction-m> i think we should branch right after minor releases, so 7.4 will have a branch, and head will continue development
20:53 <@preaction-m> so bugfixes can be backported
20:53 <@snapcount> the reasons we don't are:
20:53 <@preaction-m> but opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
20:53 <@snapcount> 1) to keep people focused on making a release stable
20:53 <@snapcount> and not just working on cool stuff
20:54 <@snapcount> 2) merging to branch/head on every commit is a pain in the ass
20:54 <@preaction-m> pardon me if i call bullshit on (1)
20:54 <@snapcount> so we delay that as long as possible
20:54 <@snapcount> bullshit?  there is no bullshit here
20:54 <@snapcount> only happiness and kittens
20:54 <@preaction-m> (2) is just as easy as "svn diff > patch.txt" before you commit, then "patch -p0 < patch.txt" in the branched stable
20:55 <@snapcount> yes
20:55 <+perlDreamer> or svn merge -r rev1:rev2
20:55 <@snapcount> and svn commit is easier
20:55 <@snapcount> I didn't say how much harder (2) was =)
20:55 <+perlDreamer> I can't find the list of show stopper bugs for 7.3 on the dev list
20:55 <@snapcount> wow
20:55 <@snapcount> irony
20:55 <@preaction-m> something has to give, in some way it will be made more difficult
20:55 <@snapcount> prolly a bug
20:56 <+perlDreamer> is it just bug volume?
20:56 <+perlDreamer> ug
20:56 <@preaction-m> whether it be by using another program that does the SVN commits, or by doing the steps above
20:56 <+perlDreamer> that's a bug, too
20:56 <+perlDreamer> when I replied via email, it created a new thread
20:57 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: If I remember correctly, we need to fix all the Calendar and WIki bugs
20:57 <+perlDreamer> how about RSS?
20:57 <@snapcount> the CS bug that I specified preaction-m has fixed
20:57 <@snapcount> is it broken?
20:58 <@preaction-m> i'm worrking on one of the calendar bugs (the one reported by kristie and alafondo)
20:58 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/rss-generation-not-working-in-cs#e3L-Yrd3aeEdtPwGLVc9XQ
20:58 <@snapcount> oh yeah
20:58 <@snapcount> that's that new quasi-asset thingy
20:58 <+perlDreamer> hey, there's another bug we can close:
20:58 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/resolved-rfes-appearing-in-search-results#wJJyZzLJd8I0M6tvbnUuCw
20:59 <+perlDreamer> Roy, if you have time, please check it out and see if it's related to the same behavior in the bug system
20:59 <@snapcount> not sure that's a bug
21:00 <@snapcount> think of it in the context of the forums
21:00 <@snapcount> closed issues you'd want to find
21:00 <@snapcount> as well as closed bugs, so you know if they were found/fixed
21:00 <+perlDreamer> yeah
21:00 <+perlDreamer> good point
21:00 <+perlDreamer> should we close it out?
21:00 <@snapcount> might be nice to add an RFE to limit results to one or the other
21:01 <@snapcount> yes
21:01 <+perlDreamer> I'll do that with the RFE suggestion.
21:01 <+perlDreamer> yay! One less bug
21:01 <@snapcount> rock on
21:01 <@snapcount> ok... back to other crap for a while
21:02 <@snapcount> I'll peak in again in a bit
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22:46 <@snapcount> Paging rizen of the Smiths whom hail from the land of cheese and dairy
22:47 <@snapcount> preaction-m: you need to see if your bot can run the UNO game
22:47 <@snapcount> otherwise we'll have to off it in favor of an eggdrop bot
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot is custom source, not eggdrop or anything else
22:48 <@snapcount> we also need to get seen, and calc going again
22:48 <@rizen> don't page me
22:48 <@preaction-m> freenode has seenserv
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot seen rizen
22:48 <@snapcount> blah
22:48 <@snapcount> can I hail you?
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot doesn't
22:49 <@rizen> no hailing, paging, or yelling at me
22:49 <@snapcount> what if I whisper
22:49 <@rizen> you can bow before me if you want though
22:50 <@snapcount> I want to know how you want something to work
22:50 <@snapcount> so I can uhh, make it work
22:50 <@snapcount> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/wiki-deleting-pages#1N7SMyGT56ji8X2z6qc4zg
22:51 <@rizen> deleted pages suck
22:51 <@snapcount> indeed
22:51 <@snapcount> so a new "suck" flag in the schema should do the trick
22:52 <@rizen> i assume you already added the delete confirmation, right?
22:52 <@rizen> so now all we need to solve is the recent pages thing?
22:52 <@snapcount> not yet... was going to fix it all at once
22:52 <@snapcount> you just the recent pages
22:52 <@snapcount> all I need you for
22:52 <@snapcount> just wasn't sure how it should work
22:52 <@rizen> it needs to do one of two things
22:52 <@rizen> i'll let you decide which you'd rather do
22:53 <@rizen> a) when a page is deleted, don't show that entry in the recent changes log
22:53 <@rizen> or any revisions of it in the recent changes
22:54 <@rizen> b) show "Page deleted by X on 1/13/2006" without linking the title
22:54 <@rizen> but then add a (Restore) link in parens
22:54 <@rizen> that undeletes it
22:54 <@snapcount> only wiki admins see restore correct
22:54 <@rizen> right
22:54 <@snapcount> ok
22:54 <@snapcount> thx homey
22:54 <@rizen> not your homey
22:55 <@snapcount> you can be my "dogg"
22:55 <@preaction-m> if only wiki admins can see "restore" then only they should be able to delete
22:55 <@snapcount> note the double g
22:55 <@snapcount> that's how it is preaction-m
22:55 <@rizen> right, only wiki admins should be able to delete
22:55 < ckotil> sure thing iggy popp
22:55 <@preaction-m> k, making sure
22:55 <@rizen> i won't be your dogg either
22:55 <@snapcount> gawd...
22:55 <@rizen> if you were from australia, i'd be your mate
22:55 <@rizen> but you're not
22:55 <@snapcount> whoa
22:55 <@rizen> so you can't do that either
22:56 <@snapcount> "check please"
22:56 <@snapcount> hehe
22:56 <@rizen> cuz "mate" means something totally different here
22:56 < ckotil> heh
22:56 <@rizen> tell you what snapcount
22:56 <@preaction-m> roy's from FL, can he be your rich, senile, elderly relative?
22:56 <@snapcount> ouch
22:56 <@rizen> i'll be happy to be "the thorn in your side"
22:57 <@rizen> or "the thing that should not be"
22:57 <@rizen> or "a pain in your ass"
22:57 <@snapcount> oh... btw, I think Koen is interested in sponsoring a demo server
22:57 <@snapcount> he posted to the dev list about it
22:58 <@rizen> yeah and i posted a response
22:58 <@snapcount> ok you can be the "pain in the ass" cuz I can abbreviate it easily
22:58 <@rizen> sponsoring a demo server doesn't do anyone much good though
22:58 <@rizen> cuz it doesnt' solve any existing problems
23:00 <@snapcount> ahh
23:00 <@snapcount> damn spammers
23:01 <@snapcount> I think it's cool that he offered though
23:04 -!- perlDreamer_lunc is now known as perlDreamer
23:07 <@rizen> i just asked him if he'd be interested in running forge.webgui.org
23:07 <@snapcount> sweet
23:07 <@rizen> instead of setting up a seperate demo server that doesn't serve any need
23:07 <@rizen> forge.webgui.org would be really cool
23:07 <@rizen> but the problem i've seen so far is
23:07 < ckotil> pronounced for-hey ?
23:07 <@rizen> that there are no good free forge packages out there
23:08 <@rizen> i looked into buying source forge for webgui
23:08 <@rizen> and it was going to be 10k or something rediculous
23:08 < ckotil> ah.jeezus
23:08 < ckotil> we have a source forge account for one of our apps. router proxy
23:08 < ckotil> i cant believe it would have costed that much
23:08 <@rizen> we have a source forge account for webgui too
23:08 < ckotil> is it 10 grand because of the complexity of webgui?
23:09 <@rizen> but i mean to run a seperate forge system for webgui
23:09 < ckotil> i see.
23:09 <@rizen> if you're just out on sourceforge.net
23:09 <@rizen> it's free
23:09 <@rizen> but if you want to run your own forge
23:09 <@rizen> that's when they charge you
23:09  * ckotil nods
23:09 < ckotil> s/rape/charge
23:09 <@rizen> indeed
23:22 <@snapcount> preaction-m: what time do you want to get started tomorrow on the release?
23:23 <@snapcount> need to start by 9a your time cause I have to get other stuff done
23:23 <@snapcount> but we can start earlier if you would like
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23:24 <@snapcount> nice of you to join us again perlDreamer
23:24 < perlDreamer> you intercepted a Ctrl-W
23:24 <@preaction-m> snapcount: 9a sounds good
23:24 <@snapcount> preaction-m: coolio, I'll skype you
23:25 <@snapcount> the first step of the release you need to do now though
23:25 <@snapcount> email dev list and tell them no commits after 9a CST tomorrow
23:25 <@snapcount> until the release is on pb.com
23:25 <@snapcount> I got an interception eh perlDreamer
23:26 < perlDreamer> similar to a rogue bludger
23:26 <@snapcount> I'm afraid to ask
23:27 < perlDreamer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bludger_%28Harry_Potter%29
23:28 <@snapcount> that's another thing I miss is tinyUrl from the old bot
23:28 < perlDreamer> whatever happned to WRE?
23:28 <@preaction-m> perlbot shorten it
23:28 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/t7ci
23:29 <@snapcount> nice
23:29 <@snapcount> can you make him do it automatically?
23:29 <@snapcount> the guy hosting him for us had the server take a crap
23:29 < perlDreamer> sure! preaction-m: say perlbot shorten it
23:29 <@preaction-m> or anyone can say it
23:29 <@snapcount> uhh
23:30 <@snapcount> www.foo.net
23:30  * snapcount taps his fingers
23:30  * snapcount whistles a tune
23:30 < perlDreamer> snappy likes his bots automated
23:30 < perlDreamer> Kari likes her toast butter-side up
23:30 <@snapcount> lessWork++
23:35  * perlDreamer is confusing data structures
23:35 <@preaction-m> perlbot shorten www.foo.net
23:35 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://tinyurl.com/ydvg6h
23:35 < perlDreamer> that's shorter, all rightey
23:35 <@preaction-m> that's hardly perlbot's fault.. you guys are too hard on her
23:35 < perlDreamer> she's only doing what she's told
23:36 < perlDreamer> I just don't get the whole URL shortening thing
23:36 < perlDreamer> what's the point
23:36 < perlDreamer> you either point and click, or highlight and copy
23:36 <@preaction-m> if you have to remember it for a screen session, or a terminal session
23:38 < perlDreamer> does anyone have a SOAP site that they use for testing the WSclient?
23:40 <@rizen> i used to use google's search api
23:40 <@rizen> but that's apparently gone now
23:40 <@rizen> if you can still get access to it
23:40 <@rizen> then there's a document in webgui done right
23:40 <@rizen> that explains how to use it
23:41 < perlDreamer> okay
23:42 < perlDreamer> ah
23:42 < perlDreamer> here it is
23:42 < perlDreamer> hidden away in the Content Managers area
23:46 <@rizen> snapcount
23:46 <@rizen> did that rss feed bug i reported get fixed
23:47 <@rizen> nevermind..ooking
23:56 < ckotil> Is there documentation explaining the methods that make up a wobject?
23:56 < ckotil> i understand some of them from looking at examples.
23:57 <@rizen> there's the api docs
23:57 <@rizen> linked from webguidev.com
23:57 <@rizen> and there's also the wobject tutorial
23:57 < ckotil> ok. thanks
23:57 <@rizen> from the same site
23:57 < ckotil> yah i went through the trivia tut, but not the one from WUC
23:59 < ckotil> ya i guess all i need is here in the wobject.html
--- Day changed Wed Jan 10 2007
00:00 < ckotil> but...seems some are missing. like view and prepare_view
00:00 < ckotil> are they missing or just located elsewhere?
00:00 <@rizen> i don't know what you're asking me
00:01 <@rizen> or what you're even looking at
00:01 < ckotil> http://www.plainblack.com/downloads/builds/7.3.3-beta/api/Asset/Wobject.html
00:01 < ckotil> im looking at that wondering where the methods view and prepare_view are
00:01 < ckotil> prepareView