--- Log opened Mon Jan 01 00:00:04 2007
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05:17 -!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.2) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!
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04:35 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. just realised why the webgui forum ratings are always screwed up
04:35 < Radix-wrk> Visitor can rate forum posts up or down
04:36 < Radix-wrk> Which means that every web crawler under the sun is effectively activating rate up/rate down at random and screwing up everyone's karma as a consequence
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06:55 < Radix-wrk> I'd love to know how to add a page to the community wiki
07:11 < Radix-wrk> LOL - http://www.plainblack.com/install/upgrade_help?sortBy=rating
07:11 < Radix-wrk> a rating of 1994
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16:39 < nutrino> Are there any known security bugs with webgui?
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16:41 < ckotil> ^ any known security bugs? 
17:35 < ckotil> yeah im having some major issues.
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18:08 <+crythias> hmm
18:08 <+crythias> HNY and all that.
18:18 < ckotil> yup
18:18 < ckotil> i get back to work and webgui has shit the fan
18:18 <+crythias> question:
18:19 <+crythias> I have some info/tutorials that I've found on the internet for aua-style buttons (web2.0/3d/gel buttons)
18:19 <+crythias> aqua
18:19 <+crythias> in ANY case
18:20 <+crythias> the question is should a list (navigation)  want to have same size buttons or size-per-entry?
18:21 < ckotil> size-per-entry, as in customizeable sizes?
18:27 <+crythias> yes
18:27 <+crythias> because...
18:28 < ckotil> could be usefull
18:28 < ckotil> it'd be a nice additional feature
18:28 <+crythias> people don't do this, but I know you can use a 1px wide repeating background with attached endcaps...
18:28 < ckotil> im guilty
18:29 <+crythias> I used this "trick" for the WebGUI 6 resizable theme, way back when.
18:36 < ckotil> nice
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19:50 < ckotil> damnit. i want the crawler bots to stop going through my http proxy
19:50 < ckotil> i think its killing my site
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20:18 <@preaction-m> ckotil: you hve a robots.txt?
21:50 < ckotil> yes
21:50 < ckotil> a good one
21:50 < ckotil> i think i found teh prob
21:50 < ckotil> fucking http proxy
21:52 < ckotil> our log files are ~30mb each
21:52 < ckotil> and its causing our whole server to seize when a crawler crawls the logs
21:53 < ckotil> does that sound plausible?
21:59 <@preaction-m> why ... how can a crawler get to the logs?
21:59 <+crythias> because http-access
22:00 <@preaction-m> why are the logs under DocumentRoot? is that how the WRE does it?
22:02 < ckotil> these are systems logs for researchers
22:02 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data.html
22:02 < ckotil> bgp rib dumps
22:02 < ckotil> igp state dumps
22:02 < ckotil> etc...
22:04 < ckotil> have you thought of how to proxy large files?
22:04 < ckotil> it seems the http proxy asset is ... dumb when it comes to large files
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22:05 < ckotil> temp files should be used for large file support, and use the in memory for smaller files
22:09 <@preaction-m> the httpproxy asset is dumb, period. it should not be used for half as much as people use it for
22:09 <@preaction-m> far better to open a vhost on a different port
22:11 < ckotil> i like to use http proxy to bring content inline with my template
22:12 < ckotil> i could use iframe, but that has its drawbacks & limitationst oo
22:13 <@preaction-m> for simple informational pages, sure it works great. but people are trying to proxy CGI applications, binary files, etc...
22:13 < ckotil> yup
22:13 < ckotil> i tried the js http proxy
22:13 < ckotil> that didnt work quite like id hoped
22:14 <@preaction-m> there'd be a nice way for CGI applications to get "proxied" by having WebGUI execute the appropriate script with the appropriate arguments/data passed on STDIN
22:14 <@preaction-m> as for binary files, or large files, that's best handled by another apache host/instance
22:17 < ckotil> interesting
22:17 < ckotil> using stdin eh?
22:18 < ckotil> what types of stdin does webgui offer?
22:18 < ckotil> outside of building a wobject
22:41 <@preaction-m> it'd have to be a wobject
22:42 < ckotil> :{
22:42 < ckotil> well thats the next step
22:42 <@preaction-m> call it an "Exec" or "CGI" wobject, build in some protections to allow only certain parameters to be passed, allow programs that don't use CGI to be called (normal CLI programs, perhaps)
22:43 < ckotil> yeah. they will start out very simple at first
22:44 < ckotil> hell my first attempt at building a wobject, printed text and did an evaluation
22:44 < ckotil> i havent made one that accepts input. thats the next step
22:45 < ckotil> how hard is it to allow users to switch between templates for a page?
22:45 <@preaction-m> on a per-user basis?
22:45 < ckotil> i.e. it defaults to one page and i want to give users the option of using a different template
22:45 < ckotil> i recently updated my template to scale the entire width of your screen
22:46 <@preaction-m> i'm not sure if template form inputs are valid for user profiles, but that'd be the best way
22:46 < ckotil> or plain scale to whatever size you desire. some people dont like this and id like to have a button tey can click to use the old template
22:46 < ckotil> is that possible?
22:47 <@preaction-m> sure it's possible, javascript could do it
22:47 < ckotil> ;]
22:48 < ckotil> cool i think i know how. use js to store and set the template varibale/url to whatever?
22:48 <@preaction-m> actually it'd be more use javascript to decide which CSS file to get
22:48 <@preaction-m> but that might work too, the two different URLs, but that'd be bad
22:49 < ckotil> they use the same css
22:49 < ckotil> i made sure of that.
22:49 < ckotil> whatd be bad about itt?
22:49 < ckotil> url to the template that is.
22:49 < ckotil> or is that determined even before the page loads?
22:49 <@preaction-m> that's determined before any data is sent to the user
22:49 < ckotil> hrm...
22:50 < ckotil> so how would i use js to change that?
22:50 <@preaction-m> it'd be bad because you'd have to maintain two versions of the same asset, but if one was a shortcut to the other with an override....
22:50 < ckotil> yeah...fuuuuck that
22:50 <@preaction-m> that'd be best actually, one a shortcut to the other, with a template override
22:50 < ckotil> it could be done with css tho
22:51 < ckotil> i could have 2 css's and force widths to the one template. yeah, i could do it.
22:51 < ckotil> oh use shortcut assets?
22:51 < ckotil> sick.
22:51 < ckotil> & easy
23:23 < vidar_> what are you trying to do?
23:37 < ckotil> have 2 templates. that users can choose from
23:37 < ckotil> im not worried about it tho.
23:37 < ckotil> im heading home. ttyl
23:38 < vidar_> better do that with js
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01:27 <@rizen> by a show of angry fists...how many people are actually here right now?
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01:41 < xdanger> \o/
01:41 -!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 8 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
01:41 <@rizen> wahoo!!
01:42 <@rizen> we've got a live one here!
01:42 < xdanger> =)
01:42 < xdanger> wazzup?
01:43 <@rizen> nothing at all
01:43 < xdanger> mmmm'k
01:43 <@rizen> was just wondering if anyone in that list is actually a real person
01:43 <@rizen> or if they're all bots
01:43 <@rizen> methinks we should put this channel to some good use
01:43 <@rizen> and i was just wondering where we stand at this point
01:43 <@rizen> apparently, mostly dead in the water
01:44 <@rizen> so starting from scratch
01:44 < xdanger> I'm just running irssin inside a screen so i'm "online" 24/7
01:52 < xdanger> It's a pity that webgui doesn't have a more active community
01:52 <@rizen> it's going to have
01:53 <@rizen> that's what i'm talking about
01:53 < xdanger> but... If you take a look at some php-crap, it's a good thing too ;)
01:53 <@rizen> this is part of my new years resolution for webgui
01:53 <@rizen> we will have a much stronger community by the end of 2007
01:53 < xdanger> there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for joomla! for examble
01:53 < xdanger> example
01:54 <@rizen> yup
01:54 <@rizen> part of the reason people think that the community is small for webgui
01:54 <@rizen> is that webgui has so many more features than most of it's competitors
01:54 <@rizen> it doesn't need as many plugins
01:54 <@rizen> cuz it already has that stuff built in
01:54 < xdanger> there are so many crapy unuseful plugins for <insert something made with php based on a community> for example
01:54 <@rizen> true...
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01:55 <@rizen> but people using webgui are using it to do real work
01:55 <@rizen> they aren't using it for their family home page for the most part
01:55 <@rizen> that's the difference between us and joomla
01:55 <@rizen> webgui gets shit done
01:55 < xdanger> there's not a lot of "whisels and bells" (cant type that correctly) in webgui, but you can do thouse with a couple of plugins&template alterations =)
01:56 <@rizen> what kinds of whistles and bells would you like?
01:56 < xdanger> yup, I acctually was thinking of doing a "family page" with webgui... and have each member have their own pages and galleries...
01:57 <@rizen> yeah, i'm sorry...i didn't mean to say that you can't use it for your family home page
01:57 <@rizen> i use it for mine
01:57 < xdanger> not me... my clients say that this doesn't have something and I think about it overnight and then tell them 2-4 different ways to acomplish their goal...
01:57 <@rizen> just that most of our users are business and colleges
01:57 <@rizen> not home users
01:58 < xdanger> yup, webgui - not for beginners administrators...
01:58 < xdanger> whou wre has helped a lot
01:58 <@rizen> yup, templates give you a lot of power
01:58 <@rizen> this month and next i'm writing a whole new wre
01:58 <@rizen> with GUI management tools
01:59 <@rizen> i'm hoping to have it out the door by march
01:59 < xdanger> nice... so Is that the 0.8 that someone talked about?
01:59 <@rizen> yes
01:59 <@rizen> we'll probably put out a few more 0.7 patches
01:59 < xdanger> ok, so can stop waiting for that =)
01:59 <@rizen> but no new dev is going into that
01:59 <@rizen> all new dev is going into wre 0.8
02:00 < xdanger> Just before christmas I was just testing our upgrade path 6.8.10->7.2.3...
02:00 < xdanger> I'm a bit worried about spectre
02:00 < xdanger> is it stable/safe
02:01 < xdanger> I know that you have tested it and so one, but still =)
02:01 <@rizen> to be honest i'm worried about spectre too
02:01 <@rizen> it's not as good as it needs to be
02:01 <@rizen> but i wouldn't have known that if i didn't release it
02:01 <@rizen> now that it's out in the wild, i can see how people are using it
02:01 <@rizen> and what problems they're having
02:02 < xdanger> a server writen in perl is something that I'm not comfortable with
02:02 <@rizen> so now i can make improvements
02:02 <@rizen> oh...that's not a problem
02:02 <@rizen> i've written dozens of those
02:02 <@rizen> they're as stable and safe as anything els
02:02 <@rizen> e
02:02 <@rizen> if written correctly
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02:02 < xdanger> yeah, I know that they work and so one, but still...
02:03 < cap10morgan> Is there a way to edit a style template via the API?
02:03 <@rizen> spectre is my first attempt at writing a POE based server
02:03 < cap10morgan> or even just access one and then put a different one back? (i.e. edit it via other means)
02:03 < xdanger> I'm did some reading on perlbal and mogilefs, and It's crazy that they wrote thouse in perl =D
02:03 <@rizen> yes there is cap
02:03 < cap10morgan> rizen: great
02:03 <@rizen> here's how it works
02:04 <@rizen> my $template = WebGUI::Asset->new($session, $assetId, "WebGUI::Asset::Template", $version);
02:04 < xdanger> when I tested POE, it wasn't so stable then... and the progres was a littee stale at the begining...
02:04 <@rizen> You can leave off $version if you just want to retrieve the most recent one
02:04 <@rizen> then you just do
02:05 <@rizen> $template->addRevision({template=>$newTemplateCode});
02:05 < cap10morgan> rizen: cool, makes sense. thank you.
02:05 <@rizen> After you've made that edit
02:05 <@rizen> you'll have to commit
02:05 < xdanger> and commit? or does that commit?
02:05 <@rizen> you can either do that vie code
02:05 < xdanger> o =)
02:05 <@rizen> via code
02:05 <@rizen> or you can do it via the web interface
02:06 <@rizen> doing it via code works like this:
02:06 < cap10morgan> right
02:06 <@rizen> WebGUI::VersionTag->getWorking($session)->commit;
02:06 <@rizen> That's the one liner
02:06 <@rizen> To commit the current working tag.
02:07 < cap10morgan> cool, i think i'm all set then. thanks
02:07 <@rizen> xdanger: perlbal is amazing
02:07 <@rizen> np cap
02:08 < xdanger> It is...
02:08 < xdanger> Have you taken a look at gearman? from "danga" also...
02:08 < xdanger> You could use that for a base for something like spectre
02:09 <@rizen> yes i did look at that before i built spectre
02:09 < xdanger> didn't fit your needs?
02:09 <@rizen> it would have worked great for spectre if i wanted to run spectre stand alone
02:09 <@rizen> but i decided that i wanted to use the webgui nodes
02:09 <@rizen> as the worker bees
02:09 <@rizen> rather than starting seperate worker bee servers
02:10 <@rizen> which is what gearman does
02:10 < xdanger> ok
02:10 <@rizen> i figured you already have the webgui codebase loaded into memory in apache
02:10 <@rizen> why load it again into gearman servers
02:10 <@rizen> just wasting memory...know what i mean?
02:10 < xdanger> and spectres jobs aren't that heavy lifting... we'll maybe mail stuff...
02:10 < Radix-wrk> spectre seems to randomly die on our server - no error messages or anything to say why - I've got a cron job to restart it every morning just in case.
02:10 <@rizen> even mail isn't heavy
02:10 < xdanger> yup
02:11 <@rizen> sorry to hear that radix
02:11 < xdanger> That's what I'm also worried about...
02:11 <@rizen> is there anything in your log that would indicate what's up?
02:11 < Radix-wrk> simple fix at least :)
02:11 <@rizen> also, if you're using the webgui runtime environment
02:11 <@rizen> it will autorestart spectre
02:11 <@rizen> if it dies
02:11 <@rizen> just like it does with apache and mysql
02:12 < xdanger> but you have desinged it "the-right-way" that it runs the jobs when it's restored...
02:12 < Radix-wrk> using WRE here, but not the wremonitor - as it never worked for me
02:12 < Radix-wrk> the wremonitor would continually restart spectre
02:12 < Radix-wrk> still using an older wre tho
02:13 < Radix-wrk> not tried 0.7.2 yet
02:13 < Radix-wrk> and using webgui 7.0.8
02:13 <@rizen> spectre is much better in later versions
02:13 <@rizen> also, be sure to upgrade to the latest POE and POE::Component::IKC
02:13 <@rizen> as they have fixed a lot of bugs
02:14 <@rizen> that were causing spectre problems
02:14 < Radix-wrk> that in wre 0.7.2?
02:14 <@rizen> yes
02:14 < Radix-wrk> okey.. might have to give that a go sometime then
02:14 <@rizen> but you can also do that from cpan
02:14 < Radix-wrk> we've been pretty happy with our setup, so not needed to upgrade really
02:14 <@rizen> understandable
02:14 <@rizen> once 7.3 comes out stable
02:15 <@rizen> you really should upgrade
02:15 <@rizen> we're fixing lots and lots of bugs
02:15 <@rizen> in this release
02:15 < Radix-wrk> cool
02:15 <@rizen> i'll be announcing my new years resolution for webgui on the dev mailing list in the next week or so
02:15 <@rizen> and it's all about stabilizing webgui
02:16 <@rizen> making it more robust, and speedier
02:16 < Radix-wrk> good to see you on irc a bit more too rizen :) - we're slowly getting more people on irc these days which is nice
02:16 <@rizen> i plan to be on here a lot more
02:16 <@rizen> i was really burned out at the end of last year
02:16 <@rizen> so i needed to take a break for a while
02:16 < Radix-wrk> hehe.. fair enough :)
02:17 <@rizen> i worked for 3 years straight with no vacation
02:17 <@rizen> and you can't do that when you put in the hours i do
02:17 < Radix-wrk> yeah.. webgui 5-7 was a huge undertaking
02:17 < Radix-wrk> you've done a great job tho :)
02:19 <@rizen> thanks. i appreciate it.
02:19 <@rizen> hopefully now that all that's done
02:20 <@rizen> we can get back to building the community again
02:20 <@rizen> and get webgui right back on track to being the best thing out there
02:20 < xdanger> I'm amazed that you just didn't "start for scratch"
02:20 <@rizen> i thought about it
02:20 <@rizen> more than thought about it
02:20 <@rizen> started architecting it
02:20 < xdanger> since you rewrote all of it =)
02:20 <@rizen> but then decided that i would eventually need to migrate all the content
02:20 <@rizen> anywya
02:20 < xdanger> I like most of your ideas...
02:21 <@rizen> also...i figured that a lot of the code is good
02:21 <@rizen> it just needed to be tweaked
02:21 < xdanger> I desinged a hack for you... to implement multi-lingual content and stuff... but didn't have the time to make it readaple..
02:21 <@rizen> so i decided it would be better to go evolutionary
02:21 <@rizen> rather than revolutionary
02:22 <@rizen> multi-lingual content?
02:22 < xdanger> Our biggest problem is that finland is bilangual country...
02:22 <@rizen> yeah, that's a problem i decided not to tackle
02:22 <@rizen> cuz it was just too hard to do
02:22 <@rizen> without making webgui slower
02:23 < xdanger> Or at least finnish and english...
02:23 <@rizen> if you can come up with some brilliance
02:23 <@rizen> i'd love to see it
02:23 <@rizen> maybe we can make it part of the core
02:24 < xdanger> It can be disabled... but I have to digg up my notes... or my memories about that
02:24 <@rizen> i'm sure you're not the only one that would want that
02:24 < xdanger> I didn't implement it... I was thinking of building on the metadata that you allready have
02:25 <@rizen> ah
02:25 < xdanger> But, then I got to think that a special versioning system on top of the current could be better
02:26 < xdanger> And that language selection could be writen over via simple ?changeLanguage=Fi url call
02:26 <@rizen> well if you get your notes together, i'd love to hear your ideas
02:26 <@rizen> i think it would be awesome if we could support it in a way that wouldn't cause performance issues
02:26 < xdanger> I'll have to see next week...
02:27 < xdanger> I think versioning could do that...
02:27 < xdanger> cache is a problem then..
02:27 < xdanger> you would have to check that it caches per language + object, not just object
02:29 < xdanger> another problem is administrading it
02:29 < xdanger> how would you edit it and so one...
02:30 <@rizen> that's not a problem at all
02:30 <@rizen> i have a solution for the editing that works pretty elegantly
02:30 <@rizen> i just don't have a solution for storing/retrieving the data in a way that didn't cause massive performance problems
02:31 < xdanger> A smaller obtion is to incorporate a meta tag that identifies what language should be used in the current branch, and tune the system function acording to that.. but this option is just buildin a different branch for each languge, not the "multi-lingual assetData"...
02:32 <@rizen> right, that's what we recommend people doing now
02:33 <@rizen> basically that you build out your english or whatever under one branch
02:33 < xdanger> And many are going to do a different branch anyway... because some don't have identical structure for each language
02:33 <@rizen> then you create a package out of it
02:33 <@rizen> and deploy
02:33 <@rizen> that's also true
02:33 <@rizen> other problems are that sometimes you need the pages to appear in the navigation in a different order
02:33 <@rizen> due to cultural differences
02:34 < xdanger> the problem with the branches is that error's and system texts are in the visitors language, not the branch preferred language..
02:34 <@rizen> that's a common problem in the US between the english and spanish speaking americans
02:34 <@rizen> true...but that can be fixed pretty easily
02:34 < xdanger> o, didn't even think that...
02:35 < xdanger> What I think is needed is some way to "link" the different lang-brances together... 
02:36 < xdanger> saying that en/home and fi/koti are the "same" page in different languages
02:36 < xdanger> And maybe a fallback for some pages...
02:36 < xdanger> well no.. not fallbacks...
02:37 < xdanger> something like shortcut asset that would override the context =)
02:37 < xdanger> I'm just thinking alout here...
02:38 < cap10morgan> stupid question time: once i have the WebGUI::Asset object for my template, it's not clear to me how I grab the actual text of the template (i.e. the contents of the template field in the db)
02:40 < cap10morgan> ah, obj->getValue('template') seems to work nicely
02:41 <@rizen> oh sorry
02:41 <@rizen> yes
02:41 <@rizen> getValue
02:41 <@rizen> or just plain get()
02:41 <@rizen> will also work
02:41 < cap10morgan> cool, thanks
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02:49 < xdanger> rizen: one question came to mind... was brushing my teeth...
02:49 <@rizen> k
02:49 < xdanger> Why did you impleme storage in CS?
02:49 < xdanger> and not do the attachments as assets?
02:49 <@rizen> Performance
02:49 <@rizen> They were originally implemented as seperate assets
02:50 <@rizen> but doing that actually caused the viewing of posts to slow down by quite a bit
02:50 < xdanger> This way you can't link to them inside webgui...
02:50 <@rizen> because then i had to query each post for it's childrenn
02:50 <@rizen> i understand that
02:50 <@rizen> that's the downside
02:50 <@rizen> i wanted to implement them as assets
02:50 <@rizen> but it was just too slow
02:50 <@rizen> same reason i switched them back on article as well
02:51 <@rizen> incidentally..you do have the option of not allowing attachments directly on the cs
02:51 <@rizen> and then giving people access to your media folder
02:51 <@rizen> or a folder under media
02:51 <@rizen> to upload their cs attachments to
02:51 < xdanger> couldn't you have just cached the select * from asset where lineage like '000000000100000001000000001%' and (className = 'post' or classname=file) ?
02:51 <@rizen> yes
02:51 <@rizen> that's what i did
02:51 <@rizen> but you're not getting it
02:51 <@rizen> it has to be done per asset
02:52 <@rizen> and more importantly thatn that
02:52 <@rizen> it's not the query
02:52 <@rizen> but the actual instanciation of the object
02:52 <@rizen> just trust me
02:52 <@rizen> it was too slow
02:52 <@rizen> i wrote it 
02:52 <@rizen> i know
02:52 < xdanger> ok
02:52 <@rizen> it more than doubled the load time of a 4 post thread
02:53 <@rizen> and it got far worse than that on large threads
02:54 < xdanger> just that couldn't you have left out "the actual instanciation of the object" and just load the right data for the picture in the query...
02:54 <@rizen> that's circumventing the api
02:54 < xdanger> but I think I know why that wouldn't work..
02:54 <@rizen> which means that i'd forever be updating two code bases
02:54 < xdanger> that "tweaking" =)
02:54 <@rizen> i already have a code base for accessing the data
02:54 <@rizen> yeah
02:55 <@rizen> we have 200k lines of code in webgui
02:55 <@rizen> don't you think that's enough?
02:55 < xdanger> hell no!
02:55 < xdanger> more features ;)
02:55 < Radix-wrk> pfft.. 200k lines is nothing ;)
02:55 <@rizen> for a web app
02:55 <@rizen> that's enormous
02:55 <@rizen> granted...it's no where near the 50m lines of code in MS Vista
02:56 < xdanger> my biggest project was something like 7k + lot of templates
02:56 < xdanger> that was a forum software writen in perl =)
02:56 <@rizen> was it better than the CS?
02:56 < xdanger> It was faster =D
02:56 < xdanger> but no...
02:56 <@rizen> the cs would be faster if it didn't have so many features
02:57 <@rizen> i really need to subclass that thing down
02:57 <@rizen> so it doesn't have to do so much
02:57 <@rizen> or so that it does only what it needs to do in any given context
02:58 < xdanger> rizen: I was thinking of writing a asset called "Gallery" in the spirit of Apache::Gallery... it would take in a folder in webgui tree and make that in to a gallery of it's content...
02:58 < Radix-wrk> we've got about 2m loc here.. all c/c++ code tho
02:58 <@rizen> xdanger...sounds like a great plan
02:58 <@rizen> we could really use a real photo gallery
02:58 <@rizen> provided it was ass kicking
02:59 <@rizen> radix: yeah c is pretty verbose compared to perl though
02:59 <@rizen> =)
02:59 < xdanger> that's my work-around for the cs-pictures-not-in-tree thing =)
02:59 <@rizen> a real photo gallery is on my wish list for webgui
02:59 <@rizen> but there's a lot of things on my wishlist
02:59 <@rizen> and only one of me
02:59 < xdanger> overwriting folder,file and file::image assets...
03:00 <@rizen> we need peeps like you that are willing to contribute
03:01 < Radix-wrk> hey I got a wierd email this morning from plainblack btw
03:01 < xdanger> just that I don't have the time =P
03:01 < Radix-wrk> titled "[bugs] untitled" with the content "has posted to one of your subscriptions
03:01 < Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/N7oXtEkZG5MJuSM8Gj-vXw"
03:02 < xdanger> ou, yeah... there are weird post popping up on CS... the have untitled as a title and that url
03:02 < Radix-wrk> no name given, and the url doesn't work
03:02 < xdanger> have had that problem with 6.8 ;)
03:04 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. just tried to add a wiki page and got told I don't have sufficient privileges :(
03:06 <@rizen> sorry about that cs post
03:06 <@rizen> add a wiki page to what?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> to the community wiki
03:06 <@rizen> are you logged in?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> yep
03:06 < xdanger> rizen: what is causing those posts?
03:06 < Radix-wrk> logged in as Jesse
03:06 < Radix-wrk> at http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki?func=add;class=WebGUI::Asset::WikiPage
03:07 < Radix-wrk> but when I hit Save it tells me Permission Denied - don't have sufficient privileges
03:08 <+crythias> I'm curious about something.
03:08 <@rizen> crap
03:08 <@rizen> yeah, i just saw that
03:08 <@rizen> we just upgraded and there's a new bug it would appear
03:09 < Radix-wrk> okey.. least it isn't just me then :)
03:09 < Radix-wrk> crythias, I'm curious about everything. ;)
03:09 <+crythias> heh.
03:09 <+crythias> There's a news article about CDL...
03:10 <@rizen> crythias: what's up bud?
03:10 <+crythias> Just, where's CDL's mention of WebGUI?
03:10 <@rizen> what do you mean?
03:10 <@rizen> the article mentions webgui several times
03:11 <+crythias> CDL's enthusiasm and resourcefulness with WebGUI recently paid off when they were recognized with a WOW Award from
03:11 <+crythias> http://www.wcet.info/membership/awards/wow.asp
03:11 <@rizen> oh
03:11 <@rizen> true enough
03:11 <@rizen> who knows why it's not there
03:11 <@rizen> it would be nice
03:11 <@rizen> but i certainly can't force them to do it
03:11 <@rizen> it's their award
03:12 <@rizen> not webgui's
03:12 <@rizen> though webgui contributed to it
03:12 <+crythias> certainly agree.
03:12 < Radix-wrk> the WCET guys don't need to know HOW they did the website though in order to see it's good
03:12 <+crythias> really?
03:13 <+crythias> because they aren't using the <tmpl_var header>
03:13 <@rizen> crythias...though it would be nice if you linked to webgui from your site when you win the "WebGUI Contributor of the Year" award this year
03:13 <@rizen> i won't require you to do it
03:13 <@rizen> =)
03:13 <+crythias> all my major sites link to webgui :)
03:14 <+crythias> pcanywhere doesn't link, and norton antivirus free downloads don't link...
03:14 <+crythias> but my faq certainly does :)
03:14 <@rizen> your faq rocks
03:15 <+crythias> Thanks.
03:15 <+crythias> it's getting ... old, though.
03:15 <@rizen> you mean, outdated?
03:15 <+crythias> yeah.
03:16 < Radix-wrk> that's where the wiki would be good to get going
03:16 <+crythias> I haven't had enough 7.x info to rework it.
03:16 < Radix-wrk> we can all try and keep it updated
03:16 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | Happy New Year everyone!
03:17 <+crythias> still no News release
03:17 <+crythias> btw.. rizen, who are you and what have you done with JT?
03:17 < Radix-wrk> I just got the sf.net notification ;)
03:17 <@rizen> what do you mean?
03:18 < Radix-wrk> heh
03:19 <+crythias> What did I do to get nice accolades from you?
03:19 <@rizen> what nice accolades?
03:19 <@rizen> you mean the contributor of the year award?
03:19 < xdanger> haha, most used word in this channel is... webgui! 1894 times =P
03:20 < xdanger> weird =D
03:20 < xdanger> usually it's somethinkin like "is" "but"
03:20 < Radix-wrk> Speaking of awards - when's doug's interview going to be up in 'People Behind WebGUI'
03:20 <@rizen> is is is is is is is is is is is
03:20 < xdanger> Ou... maybe the stats generator leaves thouse out...
03:21 <@rizen> perhaps it is is now
03:21 <@rizen> whenever doug fills out his interview
03:21 < xdanger> enjoy: http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
03:21 <@rizen> he'll be here tommorrow
03:21 <@rizen> i'll force him then
03:21 <@rizen> =)
03:21 <@rizen> anyway...gotta go
03:21 <+crythias> http://www.gwy2.org/fomfiles/cache/52.html
03:22 <@rizen> wow xdanger
03:22 <@rizen> very ncie
03:22 <@rizen> ok..now i really need to go
03:22 < Radix-wrk> cool :)
03:22 < Radix-wrk> cya
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03:23 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. another wierd one from plainblack just came through 'Announcement: untitled'
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04:30 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.3) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
06:01 <@preaction-m> force ME to fill out an interview? do i have to take a pichar too?
06:38 < Radix-wrk> hehe
06:39 < Radix-wrk> yup - or you could pay me to fly over there and take your pic, but you could buy a professional DSLR, nice lens, tripod and remote for that price ;)
06:55 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-122.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
09:00 <@preaction-m> but, but, there's a camera on my new compydore
09:17 < Radix-wrk> So what's stopping ya then! :)
09:18 <@preaction-m> nothing really, except the fear of people from New Zealand stalking me
09:45 < Radix-wrk> yeah, kiwi's are a wierd bunch
09:46 <@preaction-m> i suppose since our little soiree starts in 5 hours i should get some sleep...
09:48 < Radix-wrk> nite then :)
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:10:20 2007
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--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 17:52:38 2007
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18:01 < ckotil> fuck http proxy
18:01 < ckotil> it shoudl be rewritten....intelligentaly
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18:42 < ckotil> im reall pissed off at http proxy
18:42 <+perlDreamer> why?
18:42 < ckotil> if only i had known the consequences i wouldnt have used it
18:42 < ckotil> its DoS just waiting to happen
18:42 < ckotil> everytime
18:44 < ckotil> granted, since i stopped proxying 30mb syslog files
18:44 < ckotil> the DOS has been slowed down
18:45 < ckotil> but i launced 3 instances of my webcrawler to my site and it killed the box
18:47 <+perlDreamer> and you think it's because of the http proxy?
18:47 < ckotil> i know it is
18:47 <+perlDreamer> do they all hang on the same URL?
18:47 < ckotil> when it rewrites urls
18:47 < ckotil> the crawler just goes on and on
18:47 < ckotil> and it eventually hits some big ass file
18:47 < ckotil> and then a million httpd proccesses get spawned as a result
18:47 < ckotil> ~50*
18:47 < ckotil> hrm turning off rewrite urls might help
18:48 <+perlDreamer> well, the http proxy is just a web browser.
18:48 < ckotil> yah. i think it shoudl be more intelligent
18:49 < ckotil> i.e. check the size of files before retrieving them
18:49 < ckotil> if over certain size, then do not proxy them. just link
18:49 < ckotil> that would solve my problems. i think
18:50 <+perlDreamer> do you hack perl?
18:50 < ckotil> not much.
18:50 <+perlDreamer> if you filed an RFE with a patch it would probably get accepted more quickly than without it
18:51 < ckotil> yeaha.
18:51 < ckotil> im just not 100% what im proposing would solve my problems
18:51 < ckotil> but i do know for  a fact that the proxying of pages is fucking up my chi
18:51 < ckotil> via http proxy
18:52 <+perlDreamer> can you pull that asset from your site or limit it somehow?
18:52 < ckotil> i use it in too many places
18:52 < ckotil> im going through and using iframe or turning off rewrite urls
18:53 < ckotil> thats teh REAL culprit. rewriting urls
18:55 < ckotil> i wish i knew webgui well enough to issue a sql statement turning off rewrite url
18:55 < ckotil> instead of clicking through it all via the web interface
18:55 <+perlDreamer> in all HTTP Proxy's?
18:55 <+perlDreamer> that's pretty easy to do
18:55 < ckotil> yes. all. i dont want no stinking rewrite url. im sure it is, but i wouldnt know what tables to look in
18:58 <+perlDreamer> update HttpProxy set rewriteUrls=0;
18:58 <+perlDreamer> it's just 1 table since it's specific to this Asset.
18:58 < ckotil> mmm.
18:58 < ckotil> thanks man
18:58 <+perlDreamer> no sweat
18:59 <+perlDreamer> just try giving the HttpProxy a hack to limit file sizes and see if it helps
19:00 < ckotil> i dont think it will.
19:00 < ckotil> bc it was freezeing on our weather map whcih is only a couple hundredK
19:00 < ckotil> KB's
19:00 < ckotil> its just the amount of proxying its doing
19:00 < ckotil> the crawler goes deep
19:01 < ckotil> bc it ignores the configuration for some reason. i use htcheck
19:28 < ckotil> will i need to clear the cache after that sql statement?
19:32 <+perlDreamer> no, but you should restart the server
19:34 < ckotil> k
19:35 < ckotil> i think ive manually turned off url rewrite and the server is holding up now with 2 instances of htcheck
19:35 < ckotil> hamemring the shit out of the site
20:40 <+perlDreamer> just out of curiousity, how many clients is each instance of htcheck simulating?
21:27 <+perlDreamer> are any of the PB staff around?
21:27 <+perlDreamer> I think I can fix a bug, but it may slow down the macro processing
22:26 < ckotil> oh man
22:26 < ckotil> wtf.
22:26 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falivealert.com
22:26 < ckotil> http proxy is an OPEN PROXY
22:27 < ckotil> perlDreamer: not sure how many clients each instance creates
22:30 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2fplainblack.com
22:31 < ckotil> aww that one didnt work.
22:31 < ckotil> hrmm
22:33 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/abilene/research-data/bgp-rib-dumps.html?proxiedUrl=http%3a%2f%2falterslash.org
23:25 <+perlDreamer> that's not an open relay, that's overriding the default URL.
23:25 <+perlDreamer> In an open relay, you should be able to fetch the URL of your choice from anywhere.
23:31 < ckotil> i dont see the differnce
23:31 <+perlDreamer> think about it in terms of email
23:31 <+perlDreamer> you want to be able to send and receive email from anywhere
23:31 <+perlDreamer> but you don't want everyone being able to use your email server
23:51 < xdanger> o fuck, and fuck again... my php guy quit...
23:51 < xdanger> and the project is behind schedule...
23:51 < xdanger> yeay!
23:53 <+perlDreamer> I don't suppose using perl is an option?
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17:17 <@preaction-m> ./mode #webgui +o rizzo
17:17 <@rizzo> BUG FIX DAY!!!!
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17:18 <@rizzo> Steve!
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17:27 <@preaction-m> frank with the high-quality nickname :p
17:28 <@n1cks3rv3sux> nothing is available and now some jackass has registered my nick
17:28 <@preaction-m> ./msg nickserv help
17:29 <@preaction-m> ./msg nickserv help register
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19:11 <@preaction-m> someone should give me founder access, or at least access enough to change access levels
19:11 <@preaction-m> so i can add khenn (frank) and meatbot (steve)
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19:12 < bopbop> hello everyone!
19:13 -!- mode/#webgui [+o bopbop] by preaction-m
19:14 <@preaction-m> With great power comes great responsibility: Use your +o wisely
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19:16 <@preaction-m> :p
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20:08 < perlm> What is driving the extremely rapid development of WebGUI?  It seems like a new beta is released every two weeks.
20:11 <@preaction-m> it's more: what is keeping it beta and not stable, and those are bugs
20:11 <@rizen> we have a 1 week maintenance cycle
20:11 <@preaction-m> we're changing from a weekly release cycle i believe, we're in our yearly staff meeting, which is why there's a population here
20:11 <@rizen> meaning, that we put out a new release every week
20:11 <@rizen> the new release is to put out bug fixes
20:12 <@rizen> however, if the bugs are signifcant enough
20:12 <@rizen> then we can't in good concience release it as stable
20:12 <@rizen> so we put out new betas
20:12 <@rizen> so people can test with the newly fixed bugs
20:12 <@rizen> or use the new beta in production if they are either daring or stupid or both
20:12 <@rizen> =)(
20:12 < perlm> I live on the edge.  We'll be going production with your Betas :D
20:16 <@rizen> We run our betas as well
20:16 <@rizen> We figure if we can't run it, then no one else should either
20:16 <@rizen> But the difference is, that we know how to fix it if all hell breaks loose
20:16 <@rizen> and most people done
20:16 <@rizen> don't 
20:16 <@rizen> so we don't recommend that anyone ever use the betas in production
20:17 < perlm> I'll just make sure to take a snapshot of the DB before we turn the users loose.
20:17 <@preaction-m> recommended with every upgrade
20:17 <@rizen> keep very regular backups
20:17 <@rizen> at least nightly
20:18 < perlm> I'm just pumped that I finally got the okay to migrate to WebGUI.  Woot.  
20:18 < perlm> Hope the meeting goes well, I'm off to lunch.
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--- Day changed Sat Jan 06 2007
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00:35 <@rizen> Doo doo doo do doooo
00:36 <@rizen> Pinky and the Brain
00:36 <@rizen> Pinky and the Brain
00:36 <@rizen> One is a genius
00:36 <@rizen> The other's insane
00:36 <@rizen> They're pinky and the brain
00:36 <@rizen> pinky and the brain
00:36 <@rizen> pinky and the brain brain brain brain brain
01:06 <@snapcount> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to rizen
01:06  * snapcount kicks rizen with a stale trout
01:07 <@rizen> snapcount goes down faster than a thai hooker
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01:41 <@snapcount> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
01:41 <+perlDreamer> maybe I should add that particular condition to the macro test to see what's going on.
01:41 <@preaction-m> hooray for public declaration!
01:41 <@snapcount> so the first step is to see if the returned quotes actually break nesting
01:41 <@snapcount> then we discuss RFE or Bug
01:41  * preaction-m submits a Freedom of Information Act Request
01:42 <+perlDreamer> what do you wanna know?
01:42 <@preaction-m> eh, just interested to keep watching and input if necesserary
01:42 <+perlDreamer> snapcount, I'm pretty sure it's quotes due to the regex on lines 139-141
01:42 <@rizen> is(1+1, 2, "Check my math.");
01:43 <@preaction-m> 401 Forbidden
01:43  * perlDreamer is haunted by bad WUC talk examples
01:44 <@snapcount> JT says it's not an RFE or Bug
01:44 <+perlDreamer> also, btw, I tried caching Macro compiles to get rid of the eval in WebGUI::Macro::process and it actually slowed things down.
01:44 <@snapcount> unless you have a way to fix it that rulez
01:44 <+perlDreamer> I
01:44 <+perlDreamer> uh
01:44 <+perlDreamer> hmmmm....
01:44 <@snapcount> smarter macro parcer ++
01:45 <+perlDreamer> Rexexp::Common::Balanced?
01:45 <@snapcount> I'm not familiar with it
01:45 <@snapcount> does it rock your socks off?
01:46 <+perlDreamer> It looks like it could be our smarter parser
01:46 <+perlDreamer> but maybe so could Text::CSV since that's essentially what the macro args are
01:47 <@preaction-m> might I suggest WebGUI::Text qw( :csv );?
01:47 <+perlDreamer> qw(splitCSV) ?
01:47 <@preaction-m> or that, :csv exports them both
01:47 <+perlDreamer> nm, I see the export tag now
01:47 <+perlDreamer> sorry, my bad
01:48 <+perlDreamer> ooh
01:48 <+perlDreamer> need to change that warn to something else using session
01:49 <+perlDreamer> in splitCSV
01:50 <+perlDreamer> preaction-m: do you want me to log that as a bug or do you want to fix it up?
01:53 <@preaction-m> perlDreamer: no, WebGUI::Text doesn't get a Session object
01:53 <+perlDreamer> dude, it needs one.
01:53 <@preaction-m> we're also doing something different with error handling/trapping
01:53 <@preaction-m> no it doesn't
01:53 <@preaction-m> it would only need it for error handling
01:53 <+perlDreamer> so some errors get thrown to error.log and some get thrown to webgui.log?
01:54 <+perlDreamer> today
01:54 <@preaction-m> basically, at the moment at least
01:54 <@preaction-m> we've got the new WebGUI (Perl) Best Practices book
01:55 <+perlDreamer> and it recommends handling error logging differently?
01:56 <+perlDreamer> btw, the only place WebGUI uses bare warn is in the Config.pm
01:56 <@preaction-m> well, it showed that Perl can do try/catch, apparently that was unknown around here :P
01:56 <@preaction-m> and croak and carp for stack traces
01:57 <@preaction-m> so the warn is wrong, it should carp, we might have to redirect $SIG{warn} to output to the proper webgui.log
01:59 <+perlDreamer> do you want that logged as a bug, then, so we don't forget to do it?
02:00 <@preaction-m> idk, it's not really a bug, it's just sometimes you have to go to the modperl error log to get some errors
02:01 <@preaction-m> perhaps once we decide what's going on with error handling in WebGUI, we'll be able to go back and make sure everything's kosher
02:01 <@preaction-m> perhaps a comment in the source
02:01 <+perlDreamer> I'll let you handle it
02:01 <@preaction-m> kk
02:10 <+perlDreamer> I'll add some more tests to Macro.pm and then see how WebGUI::Text::splitCSV does
02:10 <+perlDreamer> maybe some benchmarking, too
02:10 <+perlDreamer> although sometimes slow is better than broken
02:11 <@preaction-m> but fast is better than slow
02:11 <+perlDreamer> like, breaks faster than breaks slower?
02:11 <+perlDreamer> most times ;)
02:16 <+perlDreamer> actually, I won't
02:17 <@preaction-m> indian giver
02:17 <+perlDreamer> splitCSV does internal escaping differently from the Macro processor
02:17 <+perlDreamer> for the Macro arg processor, we need something that obeys backslashes
02:17 <@preaction-m> according to the unofficial RFC for CSV
02:17 <@preaction-m> Text::Balanced might be prudent
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02:24 <+perlDreamer> Text::Balanced is slow, at least for extracting codeblocks.
02:24 <+perlDreamer> I think I'll give Text::CSV and Regexp::Common a whirl
02:24 <@preaction-m> Text::CSV will probably pull the same escaping crap
02:29 <+perlDreamer> it does
02:29 <+perlDreamer> that means it's time to go home and sleep on it for a while
02:29 <+perlDreamer> g'night, all
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04:35 <@snapcount> Reeeeekollllllllaaaaaaa
04:36 <@rizen> plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is
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17:21  * snapcount yawns
17:21 <@snapcount> top of tha mornin to everyone
17:21 < Radix__> evenin' ;)
17:21 <@snapcount> ahh yes
17:22 <@snapcount> Australia still hasn't fixed their sun being out of synch with Florida problem
17:22 <@snapcount> =)
17:23 < Radix__> yeah.. we need a daylight saving + 12 or something I guess
17:24 < Radix__> we're having enough of a problem with daylight saving + 1 atm ;)
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--- Day changed Sun Jan 07 2007
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02:00 < perlm> anyone know any tricks for installing DBIx::FullTextSearch on a vanilla Fedora Core 5 machine/
02:00 <@rizen> it's a bastard to install on any platform
02:00 <@rizen> that's why webgui doesn't use it anymore
02:04 < perlm> it is still required in testEnvironment.pl
02:04 < perlm> so I guess that means it is okay that I forced it to install even with errors.
02:04 <@rizen> in what version?
02:04 < perlm> latest beta
02:04 < perlm> 7.3.3
02:04 <@rizen> hmm...i'll check that out
02:05 <@rizen> thanks for letting me know
02:05 <@rizen> it's out in 7.3.4
02:05 <@rizen> as of now
02:05 < perlm> de nada
02:05 < perlm> heh, cool
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18:20 < rizen_> test
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19:04 <+perlDreamer> morning
19:04 <@rizen> is it really morning?
19:04 <+perlDreamer> it is out here
19:04 <@rizen> it feels like bedtime
19:04 <@rizen> me = tired
19:05 <+perlDreamer> up late?
19:05 <@rizen> no...just a little sick
19:05 <@rizen> which has been draining me for the last couple of weeks
19:05 <@rizen> almost over it now thow
19:06 <@rizen> though
19:06 <+perlDreamer> weeks?  That's nutz.
19:06 <@rizen> yeah
19:06 <@rizen> sux
19:07 <+perlDreamer> I tried to fix Klaus's double header bug, and think I found the cause of it, but want to double check it with someone more familiar with chunking and header generation.  Game?
19:07 <@rizen> k
19:08 <@rizen> first
19:08 <@rizen> what is the bug
19:08 <@rizen> point me to a url or something
19:08 < Klaus_> Hi!
19:08 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/head-block-displayed-twice#3tLVLsiwMsgY0ZCULum18A
19:09 < Klaus_> the entry in the Extra Header field of a style is displayed doube in source.
19:09 <+perlDreamer> Klaus_: we should have you fixed up in a jiffy
19:09 < Klaus_> I think we had this bug in one of the 6er versions already fixed.
19:10 <@rizen> it doesn't sound familiar
19:10 <@rizen> there was a problem where
19:10 <@rizen> you could get double HTTP headers
19:10 <@rizen> but HTTP headers are different than head block tags
19:10 <@rizen> and the double http headers were fixed a while ago
19:11 <@rizen> ok...so you have a possible solution here
19:11 <@rizen> what is it?
19:11 <+perlDreamer> remove line 193 from WebGUI::Session::Style.pm
19:11 <+perlDreamer> uh, 198
19:12 <@rizen> 198 out of svn or version 7.3.3?
19:12 <+perlDreamer> svn
19:12 < Klaus_> My workaround was writing the tags direct into the style, not into the extra field below - but thank you for the hint removing this line from code.-
19:13 <+perlDreamer> well, I'm not sure there won't be some undesired side effects
19:13 <+perlDreamer> that's why I'm double checking with someone
19:13 <+perlDreamer> it looks dead simple, but I don't fully understand content chunking and the header generation
19:14 <@rizen> the prepare() method is always called on every template as it is rendered
19:14 <@rizen> and as you say, that does shove the head block into place
19:14 <@rizen> so yes, we no longer need that line in Style.pm
19:14 <+perlDreamer> okay
19:14 <@rizen> it's a relic of a day gone by
19:14 <+perlDreamer> I'll add a new test or two to Session/Style.pm and remove the line.
19:15 < Klaus_> tests on solved bugs were always good.
19:16 <+perlDreamer> Yeah, I'm embarassed to say that the present Style.pm test (which I wrote) didn't find this earlier.
19:16 <@rizen> you can't find everrything colin
19:16 <@rizen> don't beat yourself up about it
19:16 <+perlDreamer> I'm not
19:16 <+perlDreamer> this time :)
19:18 < Klaus_> yes. but the meanwhile huge test suite gives an additional confidence on webgui. great! :-)
19:18 <@rizen> klaus, do you write perl?
19:19 < Klaus_> a litte bit. still learnig - even from webgui code.
19:19 <@rizen> we''re always looking for eagle eyed people to help us make webgui better
19:20 <@rizen> i hope you'll consider joining the core developers, writing bug fixes, tests, and eventually new features
19:21 <@rizen> one of the best ways to learn perl is to start out writing tests
19:21 <@rizen> because tests are easy to write
19:21 <@rizen> and in doing so, you get to look at a whole lot of the codebase
19:21 <@rizen> thusly learning both perl
19:21 < Klaus_> oh yes - I will do. Helping more than only reporting bugs and REFs.
19:21 <@rizen> and the webgui api
19:21 <@rizen> don't get me wrong, reporting bugs and rfe's is great too
19:23 < Klaus_> I can give it a try in writing or improoving some of the tests.
19:23 <@rizen> that would be great
19:23 <@rizen> if you need assistance, colin and i are both around most of the time
19:24 < Klaus_> the next days im trying to bring the German translation into a productive state. The German usergroup is a bit small and inactive.
19:24 <@rizen> are you using the translation server to do it?
19:25 <@rizen> http://i18n.webgui.org/
19:25 <@rizen> may make it easier if you aren't
19:25 < Klaus_> I'v used it the last months, now I've set up my own
19:26 < Klaus_> Sometimes it's better to sreach and replace things over the whole translation.
19:27 < Klaus_> On your server I can't do it on the translated files.
19:27 <@rizen> give me the specs for what you want to do and i'll be happy to add the functionality to the translation server
19:27 <@rizen> the reason i like the translation server
19:27 <@rizen> is that everyone can pitch in to work on the changes
19:28 <@rizen> rather than having just one person do it
19:28 <@rizen> it's easier to do as a group
19:28 < Klaus_> Import an translation
19:29 < Klaus_> Won't it be good having the translation server password protected so that not everone could change things?
19:29 <@rizen> people have said that to me, but i kind of look at it as a wiki
19:29 <@rizen> in that it works better as a community project
19:30 <@rizen> if it's password protected, then all of the sudden it's back to a single user per translation
19:30 <+perlDreamer> we're probably small enough that we don't have to worry about wikiSpam (or translationSpam) yet.
19:30 <+perlDreamer> although someone did trash PDX.pm's wiki a few months ago
19:31 <@rizen> i know it's possible, but we have backups
19:31 <@rizen> and community process on a task this large
19:31 <@rizen> is more important than worrying about spam
19:32 <+perlDreamer> crud.  I found a FC6 bug.
19:33 <+perlDreamer> Either that or I need to install the FC6 perl-image-magick RPM
19:33 <+perlDreamer> I probably won't be able to get the patch committed until this afternoon.
19:33 <@rizen> what patch?
19:34 <@rizen> the style one?
19:34 <+perlDreamer> yes
19:34 <@rizen> i can do that right now
19:34 <@rizen> i'll do it
19:34 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'll commit the new test later
19:34 < Klaus_> One possible way could be a "commit to svn" function in the translation server. The translators will better notice the changes from others.
19:35 <+perlDreamer> That's a good idea.  That way translators could also sign up to get notification when commits are made.
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19:36 < Klaus_> BTW there are two entries for German that point to the same files: /German"/ and /German/. Could you please delete the Entry with the quotation marks?
19:36 <@rizen> yup
19:40 <@rizen> the quote version is gone
19:40 <@rizen> the patch is committed
19:40 < Klaus_> thanks!
19:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm off to church.  Be back later.
19:43 <+perlDreamer> Thanks, JT
19:43 <@rizen> later
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20:07 <+MrHairgrease> \nick MrAFKGrease
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20:08 <@rizen> i've almost got the commit to svn option working
20:12 <+MrAFKGrease> commit to svn from what?
20:13 < Klaus_> I've ssen it. 
20:13 < Klaus_> Commit to SVN from the translationserver.
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> is there a translation server?
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> fr 18n files?
20:13 <@rizen> yup
20:13 <@rizen> i18n.webgui.org
20:13 <+MrAFKGrease> oh cool
20:13 <@rizen> http://i18n.webgui.org
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> were updating all the i18n stuff
20:14 < Klaus_> or http://translation.webgui.org/ ;-)
20:14 <@rizen> sweet
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> 7.3.3 is ready
20:14 <@rizen> if you give me the files you've worked on so far, i can import them into the translation server
20:14 <@rizen> that is, if you want to
20:14 < Klaus_> JT, should I mail you my actual translation to import it into the translatinserver?
20:14 < Klaus_> Ok :-)
20:14 <@rizen> sure
20:14 <+MrAFKGrease> ok
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> i'll send em to you tonight
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> actually it is a ducth community project
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> 10 people or so are working on it
20:15 <+MrAFKGrease> i'm just tarring everything up =)
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> other question
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> i'm gonna add a start stop button to the timetracker
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> for use within oqapi
20:16 <+MrAFKGrease> does that have any chance of making it into webgui?
20:16 <@rizen> your entire translation team is welcome to use the translation server
20:17 <@rizen> what is oqapi?
20:17 <@rizen> regardless, ,yes ii'm find with start/stop
20:17 <@rizen> but not until we fork for 7.4
20:18 <+MrAFKGrease> oh you didn't know yet?
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> procolix split in three divisions
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> sepearte companies
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> koen's keeping procolix
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> joeri's started oqapi
20:19 <+MrAFKGrease> I've gone with Joeri
20:19 < xdanger> I could contribute our unfinished Finnish-language...
20:20 <@rizen> xdanger: more than happy to put it on the translation server, maybe you'll get some extra helpers to work on the translation
20:20 < xdanger> nice
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> rizen: I'll throw it in the group
20:20 < xdanger> I'll send it to you tomorrow in a tar
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> the translation server thing
20:20 <@rizen> no, i didn't know about the slip
20:20 <+MrAFKGrease> I reckon everybody is ok with it
20:20 <@rizen> split
20:21 <@rizen> is everyone mad at eachother?
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> no
20:21 <@rizen> or is all well in dutch land?
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> all is well
20:21 <@rizen> that's good to hear
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> yeah
20:21 <@rizen> i assume koen is the hosting/server guy
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> as an added benefit there's beer in the fridge again
20:21 <@rizen> joeri is the dev guy
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> yeah
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> albert ha
20:21 <+MrAFKGrease> albert now has his own testing company
20:22 <@rizen> cool
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> sure
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> I'm happy with it
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> no fights or whatever
20:22 <@rizen> beer in the fridge is good
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> just natural progression
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> it is
20:22 <+MrAFKGrease> a pity that i only at the office one day a week
20:23 <@rizen> it goes without saying that if you're ever in need of a job, i've got your back
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> sure
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> I'm very busy with starting to do my graduation stuff
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> and will be for a year or so
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> but no worries
20:23 <+MrAFKGrease> I won't abandon webgui
20:24 <@rizen> so, does oqapi have some spare resources?
20:24 <@rizen> i think we're going to need to outsource a project or two coming up
20:24 <+MrAFKGrease> maybe
20:24 <@rizen> actually...what's joeri's email address
20:24 <+MrAFKGrease> ask joeri
20:25 <@rizen> i'll just have vrby contact him
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> joeri aat oqapi dot nl
20:25 <@rizen> coolio
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> gotta go cooking
20:25 <+MrAFKGrease> see ya
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--- Log opened Sun Jan 07 20:56:17 2007
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21:02 <+MrHairgrease> jt
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> two suggestions
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> 1) in our ducth translation server we default to the textarea
21:02 <+MrHairgrease> the htmlarea adds to much crap
21:03 <@rizen> you can set it however you want
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> you get buttons containing texts like Save<br />
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> I know
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> just a suggestion
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> also I hacked the thing to include 'motivational' status stuff
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> see http://geefmegeld.nl/root/vertaal
21:03 <+MrHairgrease> for examples
21:04 <@rizen> do you have the source
21:04 <@rizen> oh crap
21:04 <@rizen> nevermind
21:05 <@rizen> yours is based upon the old translation server
21:05 <@rizen> i'll have to write it from scratch
21:06 <+MrHairgrease> it's trivial to implement
21:06 <@rizen> yeah
21:06 <+MrHairgrease> I know the dutch translation team liked it a lot though
21:06 <@rizen> i'll do it
21:07 <+MrHairgrease> cool
21:07 <@rizen> yeah
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> the commit to svn function is for countering vandalism?
21:09 <@rizen> yes
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> ok
21:09 <@rizen> well partially
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> we were afraid for that
21:09 <@rizen> also for going back in case of screwups
21:09 <+MrHairgrease> that's why we put the i18n thing behind a realm
21:10 <+MrHairgrease> also that helps consistency
21:10 <+MrHairgrease> brb
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> consistency as in translate this word with that one
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> english -> dutch is not exactly non-abiguous =)
21:11 <@rizen> true true
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> so we set up a word list on webgui.nl
21:12 <@rizen> the problem is that most communities
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
21:12 <@rizen> unlike the dutch team
21:12 <@rizen> are disjointed and small
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> i'm babbling right now =)
21:12 <@rizen> so we really need to allow lots of people to join in the translation process
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> sure enough
21:12 <@rizen> that's why we can't password protect it
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> i think so too
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> I'll propose the thing
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> you'll hear the result
21:13 <@rizen> k
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> regardless of that a very recent version is tarred up in the contrib area on pb.com
21:13 <@rizen> yeah, i'm not worried about that
21:13 <@rizen> more that the dutch translation is a good example of
21:14 <@rizen> "how it's done"
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> meaning?
21:14 <@rizen> you guys are the defacto international leaders
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> i know
21:14 <@rizen> you do everything first, and best
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> comes with the territory =)
21:14 <@rizen> martin: sarah says hi
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> somehow there's just a big wg-user density in the netherlands
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> hi sarah
22:02 <@rizen> motivators in place
22:15 < Klaus_> Where/in which Asset are the promote/demote icons/functionality used in WebGUI?
22:15 <@rizen> all assets use them
22:15 < Klaus_> where do they show up?
22:16 <@rizen> inherited from the superclass
22:16 <@rizen> the icons aren't used anymore, only the functionality
22:16 <@rizen> the icons are now only used by some assets for their collateral
22:17 < Klaus_> OK, I thought I'm blind ;-)
22:17 <@rizen> the promote/demote stuff can be found under the class icon of any asset
22:17 <@rizen> in the inline view
22:27 < Klaus_> OK, thanks - I've found them(data form fields)... For translating it's good to see the text/tooltip in its environment.
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> cool jt
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> would it also be possible to display the actual number of messages that are done/changed/new
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> just like in the example
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> There seems to be a bug too
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> RedNeck / Form_Captcha
22:53 <@rizen> what's the point of showing the actual numbers? it's just a feelgood indicator, right?
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> sure
22:53 <@rizen> gives you an idea of how close you are to done
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> still only one to go
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> i you'll do it right you use the actual number of characters or something
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> but that would be insane
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> i just used the number of messages
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> The RedNeck / Form_Captcha is saying it's at 50% but it is actually at 0% btw
22:56 <@rizen> yeah, that's your fault
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> what have i done?
22:57 <@rizen> it just couldn't be my fault
22:57 <@rizen> cuz i'm perfect
22:57 <@rizen> so it must be you
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> oh
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> i c
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> in that case it's Koens fault
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> we agreed on that a year ago or so
22:58 <@rizen> that's true
22:58 <@rizen> ok
22:58 <@rizen> his fault
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> =)
23:03 <@rizen> koen's bug is fixed
23:07 <+MrHairgrease> very good
23:08 <@rizen> so with the percentages
23:08 <@rizen> would you rather see 6/50
23:08 <@rizen> rather than the percentages
23:08 <@rizen> i just don't want to waste a lot of screen realestate
23:10 <@rizen> i just put it in
23:10 <@rizen> and it looks much uglier
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> that's why i put the percentages on the left side
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> and all teh other data on the right
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> if you don't scroll you don't see it
23:11 <+MrHairgrease> it's just for the eager people
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> another idea might be to put de numbers on top of the right hand frame
23:12 <@rizen> your mom's a nitpicker
23:12 <@rizen> and she dresses you funny
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> and the percentages on the lft hand side
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> that's true
23:12 <+MrHairgrease> how'd you figure that out
23:14 <@rizen> alright, i put the ratio on the right now
23:14 <@rizen> and on the detail page
23:14 <+MrHairgrease> ok
23:14 <+MrHairgrease> that looks cool
23:15 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
23:15 <@rizen> thank you for smoking
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23:57 < Radix__> funny movie that one
--- Day changed Mon Jan 08 2007
00:09 <+MrAFKGrease> which movie?
00:10 <@rizen> thank you for smoking
00:11 <+MrAFKGrease> is that a movie?
00:11 <@rizen> yup
00:11 <+MrAFKGrease> the things you learn after 2300
00:20 < Klaus_> sounds like I should have a look at the movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0427944/
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02:54 <+perlDreamer> any clues on how to find out what this is:
02:54 <+perlDreamer> has posted to one of your subscriptions
02:54 <+perlDreamer>   http://www.plainblack.com/Cm61332q9p9Sv_BxrjyXnQ
02:54 <+perlDreamer> It's from noReply@plainblack.com
02:54 <@rizen> is it reported as a bug yet?
02:55 <@rizen> if not, then no
02:55 <@rizen> it's something i'm going to have to go through the database and try to find
02:55 < Radix-wrk> I got a couple of those too
02:55 <+perlDreamer> kind of
02:55 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/problems-with-emails-from-install/upgrade-forum#zGTWsPb2x0BybrTKHrJdzg
02:56 <+perlDreamer> although knowmad reports that he got a username, while this one was empty
02:56 <+perlDreamer> it's like a workflow didn't get set up right somehow but still executed
02:56 < Radix-wrk> I got two emails myself
02:56 <@rizen> probably depends on what was shooting out the email as to what gets put in the email
02:56 < Radix-wrk> plainblack.com
02:57 <@rizen> either way it's something that shouldn't be happening
02:57 <@rizen> if the bug is reported, then thats all you can do
02:57 <@rizen> we have to take over from there
02:58 <+perlDreamer> good luck!
02:58 <+perlDreamer> also, I like the new email on the dev list
02:58 <+perlDreamer> I'll start reading Perl/WebGUI Best Practices soon
02:58 <@rizen> glad to hear it
02:59 <+perlDreamer> do we have an expected time for the 7.4 branch?
02:59 <@rizen> each time you ask me that i add a week
02:59  * perlDreamer --
02:59 <@rizen> infinity + 2 weeks
03:00 <@rizen> thats when it will be happening
03:00 <+perlDreamer> bugList < 5?
03:00 <@rizen> infinity + 2 weeks, i've already told you
03:00 <@rizen> but since you formed that as a question
03:01 <@rizen> infinity + 3 weeks
03:01 <@rizen> so we have some amazing contests scheduled for this year
03:02 <@rizen> we're bringing back the webgui community contest (wcc)
03:02 <+perlDreamer> cool!
03:02 <+perlDreamer> there are other contests, too?
03:03 <@rizen> roy should be announcing the first one next week
03:03 <@rizen> no..the community contest is all of the contests
03:03 <@rizen> instead of being once per year
03:03 <@rizen> it's going to be once every 2 months
03:03 <@rizen> we were going to do it every month, but we figured that might not give people enough time to work on stuff
03:04 <+perlDreamer> even two months is pretty quick for some big projects
03:04 <@rizen> none of them will be very big
03:04 <@rizen> at least that's the plan
03:05 <@rizen> keep them reasonable to achieve
03:05 <+perlDreamer> did the content compression (which won the last WCC) ever get folded in?
03:05 <@rizen> that's a good question
03:05 <@rizen> i don't know
03:05 <@rizen> actually, i think no
03:05 <@rizen> because we decided to do something more efficient
03:05 <@rizen> which was adding gzip functionality to the wre
03:06 <@rizen> it's far more efficient than having webgui do it
03:06 <+perlDreamer> okay
03:06 <@rizen> if i remember right
03:06 <@rizen> when we benchmarked it
03:06 <@rizen> mod_deflate was 6 times faster
03:06 <@rizen> than the code in webgui
03:07 <@rizen> and on top of that, it compressed stuff in the /extras and /uploads folders as well
03:07 <+perlDreamer> that's a lot faster
03:13 <+perlDreamer> rizen: is there any sense in me working on the Product Asset docs?
03:14 <@rizen> for the time being, yes
03:14 <@rizen> because commerce dev is put on hold
03:15 <@rizen> until after we've achieved my new years resolution
03:15 <@rizen> even after that, the product asset will likely continue to have all of it's current features
03:15 <@rizen> it will just also tie into the commerce system
03:16 <+perlDreamer> cool, thanks
03:16 <+perlDreamer> as far as I know, there are still no project for $dayJob next week, so I'll have lots of time on my hands
03:16 <@rizen> sweet
03:17 <@rizen> use that time to read pbp
03:17 <@rizen> =)
03:17 <@rizen> at least until 7.4 is branched
03:18 <+perlDreamer> I was thinking about this: http://jobs.perl.org/job/5148
03:18 <+perlDreamer> so I'll be spending a little time writing a resume
03:20 <@rizen> nah, you don't want that job
03:20 <@rizen> they'll be paying you way too much
03:20 <@rizen> =)
03:21 <+perlDreamer> I saw that and figured the posting was some kind of joke
03:21 <+perlDreamer> I've never seen salaries like that before
03:21 <@rizen> when i used to work for $bigCompany I made $that++
03:22 <+perlDreamer> not only is the salary too high, but there'd be no interstitial times for wG hackery
03:22 <@rizen> they're going to want a lot out of someone
03:22 <@rizen> for that much money
03:22 <@rizen> cuz usually when you get that high in salary
03:23 <@rizen> either they're expecting you to do 2 jobs +
03:23 <@rizen> or it's a management job
03:23 <@rizen> and the job description isn't a management job
03:23 <+perlDreamer> yeah
03:24 <+perlDreamer> All the percentages add up to 100, but it doesn't talk about hours/days
03:24 <@rizen> it also doesn't talk about how many other people you'd be working with to do that job
03:24 <@rizen> it could be that the current owner dood
03:24 <@rizen> does all the work
03:24 <@rizen> and needs to offload it to someone
03:24 <@rizen> so he can do the new software
03:25 <@rizen> but for that much money
03:25 <@rizen> you should check it out at least
03:25 <+perlDreamer> yeah
03:25 <+perlDreamer> hack perl
03:25 <+perlDreamer> stay at home
03:25 <+perlDreamer> let Kathy go to mid-wife school
03:25 <+perlDreamer> get done in 3 years
03:25 <+perlDreamer> instead of 7
03:30 <+perlDreamer> dinner time, be back later
04:24 <@rizen> svn commits for the translation server are now in place
04:29 < Klaus_> good thing. what's the meaning of a yellow line background in the right window?
04:30 <@rizen> that means there's something there, but it's out of date
04:34 < Klaus_> it seems you've also found a solution for the annoying trailing <br /> from the rich editor
04:34 <@rizen> you mean, allow the user to disable it?
04:38 < Klaus_> they were not longer automatically added at the end of a (singe line) translation or was it luck when I tested it
04:39 <@rizen> probably luck
04:39 < Klaus_> :-)
04:39 < Klaus_> OK, was a long day. Time for bed. 
04:39 <@rizen> later
04:40 < Klaus_> not for me...
04:40 <@rizen> i mean, see you later
04:41 < Klaus_> ohh. yes. bye!
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05:21 <+perlDreamer> rizen: Want to do some bug triage?  You up for it?
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19:31 <@khenn> happy monday!
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19:36 <@preaction-m> snapcount: /msg chanserv access #webgui add preaction 30 <-- do it! :p
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19:38 <@snapcount> tada
19:38 <@snapcount> np
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21:05 <@khenn> anything going on today?
21:05 <@preaction-m> alumni project, i've got a few ideas about some ease-of-use for developers
21:06 <@preaction-m> a nice script i want to make for switching between webgui instances on a dev box
21:17 < ckotil> coo
21:17 < ckotil> l
21:18 < ckotil> We have a database that contains all of the contact info for customers, logins, etc...
21:18 < ckotil> I would like for webgui's user list to be pulled from that database. How hard is that to do?
21:19 <@preaction-m> you could write a custom auth plugin
21:19 < ckotil> already use one.
21:19 < ckotil> for CAS
21:20 < ckotil> 'central authentication system' developed at yale. then we put our own spin on it
21:20 < ckotil> but it works nicely with webgui
21:20 < ckotil> but i want my users to be pulled from our database. how would i populate webgui's user list?
21:21 <@preaction-m> you want to migrate?
21:21 < ckotil> no. i want to have a single location to store my customers info
21:21 < ckotil> and users.
21:22 < ckotil> its all in a single database now.
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> you mean sync profiles with that db?
21:22 < ckotil> exactly
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> you should have a look at the syncldapprofile workflow activities
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> there are two
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> one is called when a user activates him/herself
21:23 < ckotil> ldap. k thats what i was thinking. ill go speak with my db guy . thanks
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> the other is run by the cron workflow
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> if you don't have ldap available
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> just create your own plugin
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> and use the ldap as example
21:24 < ckotil> good deal. 
21:24 <+MrHairgrease> it is
21:24 <+MrHairgrease> =)
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> reuse is the best eufemism for legal stealing
21:25 <@preaction-m> it's not illegal if you release the source
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> that's why i said legal
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> not illegal
21:26 <@preaction-m> in fact, the viral nature of the GPL requires that any custom code you write for webgui has to be released upon request
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> only code you distribute
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> and i can charge for the code
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> or better said
21:27 <@preaction-m> no, anything that works with webgui must be released under the GPL
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> the deliverance cost o
21:27 <@preaction-m> but yes, you can charge for it
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> of the code
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> gpl is a distribution license
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> so if i keep the stuff inhouse
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> i don't have to release it
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> now of course
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> fo webgui this is not a problem at all
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> everything you distribute
21:28 <@preaction-m> and since PB distributes WebGUI with it, you must abide by it, one of the caveats of it is that anything you write that uses WebGUI must be GPL
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> ships with the source automatically
21:28 <@preaction-m> that's why i usually release code under the LGPL
21:28 <@preaction-m> doesn't have the over-reaching viral nature of the GPL
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> yes
21:28 <+MrHairgrease> but if you write your auth thingy
21:29 <@preaction-m> it uses webgui's API, which means you must GPL
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> and just dploy it at your work only
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> i cannot ask for the code
21:29 <+MrHairgrease> b/c you don't distribute it
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> under the section 'common misconceptions'
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> first item
21:34 <@preaction-m> the last paragraph of the GPL seems to indicate my position, but it's ambiguous and misleading
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> yeah 
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> those damn hippie software developers =)
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> the gpl vs. lgpl thing is much less of an issue
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> with perl code
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> since when you distribute
21:40 <@preaction-m> indeed... hippie and nerd seem mutually exclusive
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> you always ship the code
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> huh?
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> have you ever seen a picture of rms?
21:41 <+MrHairgrease> now if that isn't a hippie =)
21:41 <@preaction-m> yes, i needed eye bleach
22:24 <@khenn> You can build and sell plugins for WebGUI w/o it violating the GPL
22:25 <@khenn> if you add anything to WebGUI's core, you cannot legally repackage and sell it w/o contributing it back
22:25 <@khenn> that's the difference
22:25 <+MrHairgrease> b/c plugins are not linked againstr the core?
22:25 <@preaction-m> you can sell the plugin, but not bundled with webgui, unless your plugin is also licensed GPL
22:25 <@khenn> right
22:26 <@preaction-m> the wikipedia article cleared all that crap up for me
22:29 <@khenn> I updated the Asset installer so that you can use .tmpl files rather than having to hardcode your templates right in the install code at the bottom
22:30 <@khenn> well not the Asset installer
22:30 <@khenn> but the code at the bottom of the Asset Template
22:30 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
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22:30 <@khenn> I haven't added it yet
22:30 <@khenn> b/c it's like 200 extra lines of code
22:30 <@khenn> oh, it also commits all the templates so you don't have tags from "visitor"
22:30 <@khenn> which is pretty confusing
22:30 <@preaction-m> I like the updater more, the template editor inside webgui is clunky :p
22:31 <@khenn> yeah, it's nice to work with files
22:31 <@khenn> and then just -MWebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject update
22:31 <@khenn> or I think I had to call it upgrade
22:31 <@khenn> b/c of naming conflicts
22:32 <@khenn> but if anyone wants the code, I'll be happy to post it somewhere
22:32 <@khenn> I think we will eventually add an install API to WebGUI
22:32 <@preaction-m> you could use a seperate package inside the module, say WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install, then have the subs be part of that
22:33 <@preaction-m> so you'd "use WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject;" and then call "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::MyWobject::install::update"
22:33 <@khenn> yeah I dunno
22:35 <@khenn> ok so who is everyone out here?  I know some of you
22:35 <@khenn> MrHairgrease is obvious =p
22:35 <@khenn> perlDreamer is Colin, right?
22:35 <@preaction-m> radix is Jesse
22:35 <+perlDreamer> yup
22:35 <@khenn> ok
22:35 <@khenn> this is Frank btw
22:35 <+MrHairgrease> xdanger is yukka
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> he is this dude from Finland
22:36 <@khenn> right
22:36 < xdanger> Jukka
22:36 <@preaction-m> PedersenMJ is a walk-in, iirc
22:36 <@preaction-m> perlbot botsnack
22:36 < perlbot> whatever.
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> sry
22:36 <+MrHairgrease> I meant Jukka
22:37 <+perlDreamer> howdy frank
22:38 <@khenn> howdy
22:38 <+perlDreamer> haven't seen you in here before
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> now that everybody is here anyway
22:38 <@khenn> I'm usually rizzo
22:38 <@khenn> I've been here
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> what do you think?
22:38 <@khenn> but someone stole my nick
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> tabs or spaces
22:38 <+MrHairgrease> and how many
22:38 <@khenn> spaces
22:38 <+perlDreamer> 4 spaces
22:38 <@khenn> 4
22:38 <+perlDreamer> ala PBP
22:38 <@khenn> I usually use 3
22:38 <@khenn> but I can hack 4
22:39 <@preaction-m> i've already updated my vimrc to do 4-space tabs
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> you guys are insane =)
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> tabs are obviously the way
22:39 <+perlDreamer> you can always use perltidy to locally reformat it
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> _teh_ way *
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> no
22:39 <@khenn> tabs are too modern =)
22:39 <@preaction-m> i'd prefer 8, and tabs instead os spaces, but vim does this automagically so it's no skin off my nose
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
22:39 <+MrHairgrease> but the idea is that everybody uses the same convention
22:39 <@khenn> most languages use spaces
22:40 <+MrHairgrease> or tabs
22:40 < xdanger> tabs ;)
22:40 <+MrHairgrease> most lanuages don't care
22:40 < xdanger> python does... ?
22:40 <+perlDreamer> I think so, just to determine level of indentation
22:41 <+perlDreamer> since whitespace matter in python
22:41  * perlDreamer shudders
22:41 <@khenn> I'm talking C++ (which is the only REAL language) =p
22:41 <+MrHairgrease> ouch
22:41 <@preaction-m> pfft... use C
22:41 <@khenn> well PERL is essentially C
22:41 < xdanger> But does it do some s/    /\t/; kinda stuff also =)
22:41 <@khenn> so ...
22:41 <@khenn> Ansi C?
22:41 <@khenn> ha
22:41 <@preaction-m> perlbot capital
22:41 <+MrHairgrease> anybody using emacs here? =)
22:41 <@preaction-m> perlbot capital Perl
22:41 < perlbot> Perl is the language, perl is the program, there is no PERL.  See perldoc -q 'difference between'.
22:41 <+perlDreamer> vim is the way
22:42 < ckotil> heh, nano/pico
22:42 <@khenn> my capslock got stuck =p
22:42 <+perlDreamer> so who is ckotil in real life?
22:42 < ckotil> me
22:42 < ckotil> o
22:42 < ckotil> chad kotil
22:42 <@preaction-m> i will give serious props to those who can program efficiently in nano
22:42 < ckotil> im not efficient
22:42 <+MrHairgrease> I always use vim in ed mode =)
22:43 < ckotil> emacs and vi confuse me
22:43 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease:  It's a good start.  It's like drinking light American Beer.
22:43 <+perlDreamer> instead of the real thing
22:43 < ckotil> ive learned emacs in the past, but then a couple months went by and i forgot all the shit
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> what's good about that?
22:43 <+perlDreamer> at leasty you're drinking beer
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> I once tried emacs
22:43 < ckotil> light beer is like fucking in a row boat
22:43 <+MrHairgrease> and couldn't get out of the help screen
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> kill -9 did the job though
22:44 < ckotil> its fucking pretty close to water.
22:44 <+perlDreamer> I couldn't figure out how to quit emacs
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> i also tried light beer once
22:44 <@preaction-m> lol ckotil 
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> on the first wuc
22:44 <+MrHairgrease> that was a onetimer too
22:44 < ckotil> exactly you need a cheat sheet 
22:45 <@khenn> Someday I'll be all Linuxish like you guys, but until then I like my GUI windows crap
22:45 <@preaction-m> the secret to vim is a good vimrc
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> so use eclypse
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> eclipse
22:45 <@preaction-m> and i need to get frank into vim at least, or barring that a decent editor (not Homesite...)
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> prereaction-m++
22:45 <@preaction-m> jEdit would suffice
22:45 <+MrHairgrease> vim sucks the first day
22:46 <@khenn> I can use vim
22:46 <@khenn> I just prefer not to
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> but after that you cannot live without oit
22:46 <+perlDreamer> use gvim, it will let you keep a GUI
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> use whatever you like
22:46 <@khenn> I enjoy my dev tools like split screens and line numbers
22:46 <@preaction-m> vim has those
22:46 <+MrHairgrease> set number
22:46 <@preaction-m> ctrl+w n <- split the window
22:47 <@preaction-m> ctrl+w <down arrow> move to window down, <up arrow> move to window up, etc...
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> and besides
22:47 <@preaction-m> use :h C-w <- for more information
22:47 <@khenn> as opposed to simply pressing the split screen icon?
22:47 <+MrHairgrease> who can work with an editor that cannot navigate with hjkl
22:47 <@khenn> I have enough to remember =p
22:47 <@preaction-m> exactly
22:48 <@preaction-m> it's about creating instincts, like PBP
22:48 <@preaction-m> like using screen, or any program for that matter
22:48 <@preaction-m> i'm using my newly paid-for Parallels to finally make the complete switch to vim, from jedit
22:48 <+MrHairgrease> oh
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> so your on a mac
22:49 <@preaction-m> macbook pro. the first laptop i've actually liked
22:49 < ckotil> they're nic
22:49 < ckotil> e
22:49 < ckotil> i work on a new imac core2duo
22:49 < ckotil> 21" widescreen
22:49 <@preaction-m> nice
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> they're too expensive for me
22:49 < ckotil> im trying to get hooked up with a macbook
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> but i bought a vaio
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> from the evil sony empire
22:50 < ckotil> fukcing heater is on for no reason.
22:50 -!- ckotil [n=newtrino@snare.grnoc.iu.edu] has quit ["HOT"]
22:50 <@preaction-m> this is the company's lappy, otherwise I'd be on my old-school AMDk7 2800+ running Ubuntu Edgy
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> i run a 1800+
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> with kubuntu though
22:51 <+perlDreamer> gotta run to a meeting
22:51 <+perlDreamer> be back later
22:51 <@khenn> ok, so how do I turn on color coding in vim?
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> later
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22:51 <+perlDreamer_afk> :syn on
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> syntax on
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> same thing
22:52 <@khenn> how do I unsplit the damn screen now?
22:52 <@preaction-m> :q
22:53 <@khenn> ok well screen splitting sucked =p
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> complain more
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> so what ide thing do you use then frank?
22:54 <@khenn> I use Homesite mostly
22:54 <@khenn> one step up from a text editor
22:54 <@khenn> just the way I like it
22:54 <@khenn> an old version too
22:54 <@khenn> not the crap they have out now
22:54 <@khenn> 4.5
22:54 <@khenn> can you undo in vim?
22:55 <@khenn> that would be useful to know
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> u
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> im vim 7 you can also say
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> :earlier 10s
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> which will get you back 10 secs in time
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> or later: 1h
22:55 <@khenn> will that do all of the work I will do over the next hour?
22:55 <@khenn> that would be pretty sweet
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> something like that
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> if your drunk =)
22:56 <@khenn> I'll just do later: 8h and take the day off
22:56 <@khenn> =)
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> maybe jt will buy it
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> that's how i do my job
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:57 <@khenn> I have vim 6.3
22:57 <+MrHairgrease> that only supports u
22:58 <+MrHairgrease> :help undo
23:09 < xdanger> I use subethaedit =P
23:09 < xdanger> on mu 3 years old ibook 1G
23:09 < xdanger> on my
23:10 <@khenn> I use windows.  I'm just uncool like that
23:10 <+MrHairgrease> we know =)
23:11 < xdanger> I've been planning to move to gvim7, but it's not quite there yet... on the matter of mac os x integration..
--- Day changed Tue Jan 09 2007
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00:46 <+perlDreamer> boy it got quiet all of a sudden
00:48 <@khenn> yeah
00:48 <@khenn> I said the 'W' word
00:48 <+perlDreamer> are you staying busy?
00:49 <@khenn> yes
00:49 <@khenn> we are very busy right now
00:49 <@khenn> how bout yourself?
00:49 <@khenn> I hear you are on vacation or something?
00:49 <+perlDreamer> we're inbetween projects, so I'm way bored
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> you are bored?
00:50 <+perlDreamer> muy
00:50 <+perlDreamer> mucho
00:50 <+perlDreamer> zehr
00:50 <+perlDreamer> very
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> i've been reading papers all day
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> it's really boredom
00:50 <+MrHairgrease> but some weird kind of numbness
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> it's sehr btw
00:51 <+perlDreamer> thanks
00:51 <+perlDreamer> I only speak German, not write it
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> i usually only read it
00:51 <+MrHairgrease> when i speak german
00:52 <+perlDreamer> are you reading papers for your school project?
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> germans usually do not understand me 
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> graduation 
00:52 <+MrHairgrease> i just started
00:52 < Klaus_> wyh try you not to be understood?
00:52 <+perlDreamer> His American accent throws him off
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> i try very hard to be understood
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> and sometimes i succed
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> but usually my girlfriend hijacks the conversation
00:53 < Klaus_> I have no problems with my German...
00:53 < Klaus_> OK - sometimes...
00:53 <+MrHairgrease> she's better at foreign languages i guess
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00:53 <+MrHairgrease> only in oktober right?=)
00:54 < Klaus_> all the year- and right now...
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> i see
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> you know what
00:54 <+MrHairgrease> i'm gonna get me my own dutch speech impedimen
00:55 < Klaus_> what's a impedimen?
00:55 <+perlDreamer> impediment
00:55 <+perlDreamer> difficulty
00:55 <+perlDreamer> disability
00:55 < Klaus_> Ah.
00:56 < Klaus_> to improove your 
00:56 < Klaus_> German
00:56 <+MrHairgrease> actually to improve my belgian
00:56 < Klaus_> do you like to help on Webgui translation? ;-)
00:56 <+MrHairgrease> whatever
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> nein
00:57 < Klaus_> Damn!
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> verdammt!
00:57 < Klaus_> Sehr gut!
00:57 <+MrHairgrease> genau
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> now if we only had jukka to flabbergast us with some Finnish the evening would be perfect
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> =)
00:58 < Klaus_> Webgui is missing a babelfish function.
00:58 <+perlDreamer> Porque no hablamon in Espanol?
00:58 <+MrHairgrease> No man
00:59 <+MrHairgrease> I don't speak no portugese =)
00:59 <+perlDreamer> Not Spanish either? :)
00:59 <@khenn> I fluently speak every language except for Greek
00:59 < Klaus_> I gave Spain a chance some years ago.
00:59 <+MrHairgrease> never been there
01:00 <+MrHairgrease> did you like it?
01:01 < Klaus_> The langauge. Yes. But you mentioined: girls are better in languages.
01:01 <+MrHairgrease> my girl is
01:01 <+MrHairgrease> compared to me
01:02 < Klaus_> she has adopted Perl Best Practices to foreign languages?
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> i'm better in babling
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> so i'm better at perl
01:03 <+MrHairgrease> =)
01:04 <+MrHairgrease> my guess is she doesn't even wan to touch the book
01:04 <+MrHairgrease> anybody read the Perl Hacks book btw?
01:04 < Klaus_> i can imagine.
01:04 <+perlDreamer> Went to the author's presentation at OSCON last year.
01:04 <+perlDreamer> Does that count?
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> don't think so
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> I like it a lot though
01:05 <+MrHairgrease> the book that is
01:05 < Klaus_> Not right now in my bookshelf
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01:08 < Klaus_> I've just ordered it at the library. 
01:08 <+MrHairgrease> cool
01:09 < Klaus_> Author is Conway - he worte the book on oject oriented perl?
01:09 <+perlDreamer> Author is chromatic
01:09 <+MrHairgrease> indeed
01:10 <+MrHairgrease> conway wrote oop
01:10 <+MrHairgrease> and pbp iirc
01:10 <+perlDreamer> yup
01:11 < Klaus_> Oh - it's the German translation I've ordered.
01:15 < Klaus_> anyone read Extreme Perl? http://www.extremeperl.org/
01:15 <+MrHairgrease> no
01:15 < Klaus_> I had a look on it some yers ago, but it seems still to be not yet completed.
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> but hey
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> it's free
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> =)
01:19 < Klaus_> I wanted to print the pdf version. Downloaded the pdf A4 version but it was in Letter format.
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> no big deal
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> just sloppy
01:19 < Klaus_> I had a HP printer that needed pressing a button after each page...
01:19 <+MrHairgrease> that does suck
01:40 < xdanger> Klaus_: http://www.extremeperl.org/f/extremeperl-a4.pdf
01:41 < xdanger> the link in the pages still point to letter version...
01:44 < Klaus_> things never will change. world stands still. sometimes ;-)
01:44 < Klaus_> I remember I had emailed that to the author.
02:00 <+MrHairgrease> later guys
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02:00 <+perlDreamer> Klaus_: did you get any farther on the nested macro bug on your end?
02:02 < Klaus_> No yet. No time, I had to do a lot of other stuff today. xsl-fo/pdf hacking. Will last for a fiew days.
02:02 <+perlDreamer> You know xsl-fo?
02:03 < Klaus_> yep.
02:03 < Klaus_> and svg
02:03 <+perlDreamer> I've been wanting to make a PDF of the online wG help, but everything I've tried is either proprietary or bad.
02:04 <+perlDreamer> Do you have any pointers for someone wanting to start with xsl-fo?
02:05 < Klaus_> install fop, for documentation use http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/compliance.html some often wanted features are not yet supported.
02:07 < Klaus_> producing pdf out of the dokus with fop/xsl-fo I can help.
02:11 < Klaus_> having your all-in-one help file as a valid and well formed xml file it will be easy.
02:13 <+perlDreamer> most of it is XHTML clean
02:13 <+perlDreamer> so going the next step to XML should be easy
02:20 <+perlDreamer> time for me to go home
02:20 < Klaus_> some small modifications and then perhaps tidfying will prepare the xml source. I will try do make a pdf prototype tomorrow or the next day.
02:20 <+perlDreamer> tomorrow? That would be awesome!
02:20 <+perlDreamer> thanks Klaus!
02:20 < Klaus_> me too. time for bed. its 1:30
02:21 <+perlDreamer> Gute Nacht
02:21 < Klaus_> Danke. Wünsche ich Dir auch.
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18:41 <+perlDreamer> morning, all
18:41 <@rizen_afk> morning
18:42 -!- rizen_afk is now known as rizen
18:42 <+perlDreamer> did you read Ehab's post to the new year's resolution?
18:43 <@rizen> not yet, let me check
18:44 <@rizen> blah blah blah
18:44 <@rizen> it's the same shit he's always spouting off about
18:45 <@khenn> I got 2 sentences in and decided it was a waste of time to continue
18:45 <@rizen> the second half is more interesting
18:45 <+perlDreamer> I didn't get what he said about extending the free hosting period.
18:45 <@rizen> he's talking about the demo
18:45 <+perlDreamer> oh
18:46 <+perlDreamer> for bug fixing, it would be nice to have a more persistent demo, but it's something that can also be scripted for a dev.
18:47 <@rizen> the problem with it is that we get 1200 new demos per day
18:47 <@rizen> and when a new release comes out that's more like 2000 new demos per day
18:48 <@rizen> so there's a disk usage component there
18:48 <@rizen> in addition, and this is the bigger one
18:48 <@rizen> spammers like to use the free demo area to upload pages to use in their spam bots
18:48 <+perlDreamer> oy
18:48 <@rizen> by cleaning them up every tday we eliminate that
18:48 <+perlDreamer> maybe we should have a captcha for demo creation
18:49 <@rizen> captcha isn't foolproof
18:49 <@rizen> maybe it would help
18:49 <+perlDreamer> you're right
18:49 <@rizen> but honestly, there's no reason to expand the demo that i can see
18:49 <@rizen> he said we should do it
18:49 <@rizen> but he didn't say wy
18:49 <@rizen> why
18:49 <@rizen> why would making the demo sites stick around longer increase community
18:50 <@khenn> I read it
18:50 <@rizen> i'll respond to him later
18:50 <+perlDreamer> you're already doing docs
18:50 <@rizen> i have to think of a nice way to say "no fucking way" to the wre suggestion he made
18:51 <@preaction-m> it wouldn't work for the WRE, but it would be possible for someone to maintain a package-managed version of the WebGUI source
18:51 <@rizen> the whole reason we've made the wre is that making packages for every platform is rediculously time consuming
18:51 <+perlDreamer> would it be possible to reduce the WRE to a set of configs and scripts only?
18:51 <@rizen> right, "someone"
18:51 <@rizen> but that someone is not us
18:51 <@preaction-m> exactly
18:51 <@khenn> right
18:52 <@khenn> I do think there should be an installer
18:52 <@preaction-m> well, not officially us. maybe me if i get bored one night
18:52 <@khenn> possibly install anywhere or something like that
18:52 <@rizen> perlDreamer: yes it is, but then installing the wre becomes amazingly difficult
18:52 <@khenn> not sure if there's a free one of those
18:52 <@rizen> because every system is different
18:52 <@rizen> frank, the new wre will have an installer
18:52 <@rizen> i've already said that
18:53 <@rizen> in my new years resolution
18:53 <@rizen> but it will be a home-brew one
18:53 <@rizen> because there isn't a good free cross-platform one out there
18:53 <@rizen> plus, i want it written in perl
18:54 <@khenn> ah
18:54 <@preaction-m> CGI or CLI?
18:54 <@khenn> home brew!
18:54 <@rizen> it will be cgi
18:54 <@rizen> or more probably, POE/CGI
18:54 <@preaction-m> oooooh
18:54 <@khenn> it won't be cool unless it has a splash screen =p
18:54 <+perlDreamer> oh, Steve...!
18:55 <@rizen> it will have a splash screen...that photo of me with the axe that i took for colin
18:55 <@rizen> that will be the splash screen
18:55 <@preaction-m> some ominous text "Your Web Solution Executes Now!"
18:55 <+perlDreamer> "He didn't use WebGUI."
18:56 <@khenn> "Please wait as we assimilate your system"
18:58 <@rizen> getting back to the wre without prereqs thing for a second
18:58 <@rizen> the whole idea of the wre is to give the "it just works" factor to webgui
18:58 <@rizen> the wre without prereqs will require the user to install 10 billion things
18:59 <@rizen> there's no sense of 'it just works' with that
18:59 <+perlDreamer> that's true
19:00 <+perlDreamer> and hackers can always extract the configs and scripts if they want to stay with disti-level software
19:00 <@khenn> unless we figure out a way to allow people to install / upgrade without having to do anything but type some stuff in, there will always be peopl who "can't figure it out"
19:00 <+perlDreamer> shouldn't the use hosted solutions?
19:00 <@khenn> ie ehab's request
19:00 <+perlDreamer> "shouldn't they"
19:00 <@khenn> yum WebGUI
19:00 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:01 <+perlDreamer> or apt-get WebGUI
19:01 <+perlDreamer> yast WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> right
19:01 <+perlDreamer> emerge WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> fuckinginstall WebGUI
19:01 <@khenn> I like that one
19:01 <+perlDreamer> exactly
19:01 <@khenn> =)
19:01 <+perlDreamer> disti level package management kills us in the ISV arena
19:01 <@khenn> if it's homebrewed, we can make it work
19:03 <@khenn> 1) download WebGUIsetup7-3-4.pl
19:03 <@khenn> 2) make sure you are root
19:04 <@khenn> 3) run ./WebGUIsetup7-3-4
19:04 <@khenn> 4) done
19:04 <@khenn> something along those lines
19:05 <@preaction-m> i believe there already is an emerge WebGUI (but it might be outdated)
19:05 <+perlDreamer> but does it setup MySQL and apache like the WRE?
19:06 <@preaction-m> durno, i hate gentoo
19:06 <+perlDreamer> I'm not fond of it either
19:06 <+perlDreamer> all those poor electrons being sacrificed to compile the same software over and over
19:06 <+perlDreamer> it's a waste
19:07 <@rizen> nothing out there does what the wre does
19:07 <@rizen> the wre isn't just the utility scripts
19:07 <@rizen> it's also the way we compile stuff
19:07 <@rizen> we compile out the stuff you don't need
19:07 <@rizen> so that you just have exactly what you do need
19:08 <@rizen> then we configure it all such that it's pretuned to work for webgui
19:08 <@rizen> in the best way possible
19:08 <@rizen> for most situations
19:08 <@rizen> and then on top of all that
19:08 <@rizen> we give you some nifty utilities to make day to day administration easier
19:09 <@rizen> no matter how much we worked on individual package systems
19:09 <@rizen> we wouldn't get what we have with the wre
19:09 <@rizen> because we would have to use their precompiled versions of things
19:09 <@rizen> or we'd have to fight with their precompiled versions of thigns
19:09 <@rizen> either way...not as good
19:10 <@rizen> and on top of that
19:10 <@rizen> we'd have all the dev time
19:10 <@rizen> building out tthe package management system
19:10 <@rizen> for every environment
19:10 <@rizen> rather than taking the slackware approach
19:10 <@rizen> of just giving them a tarball that works
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20:26 <+perlDreamer> preaction-m: you around?
20:26 <@preaction-m> yes'm
20:27 <+perlDreamer> Have you fixed the gateway problem in the new Calendar?
20:27 <@preaction-m> i'm not sure, it's not in the Event object that I can see
20:27 <@preaction-m> I added a "url" key to the getTemplateVars method
20:28 <@preaction-m> i've got to look through the Calendar itself and see if it's the one doing it
20:28 <+perlDreamer> okay, Kristi posted a bug about it, and I was thinking that if you'd already fixed and committed we could close it
20:28 <@preaction-m> but before then I have to write a script to help me switch between webgui sources (I've got like three that I need to constantly switch between, it's getting annoying)
20:29 <@preaction-m> yup, it's my current priority until John messages me back about his 7.x upgrade
20:30 <+perlDreamer> cool.
20:30 <+perlDreamer> Once I finish this CentOS demo at work, I can spend the rest of the day doing wG hackery.
20:30 <@preaction-m> word
20:30 <@preaction-m> does anyone still have that list of bugs that need to be fixed before 7.3 can go stable? there's now a lot of stuff in 7.3 that people are clamoring for
20:31 <+perlDreamer> I think Roy may have posted it to the dev list
20:31 <+perlDreamer> check the archives
20:31 <@preaction-m> k
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20:39 <+perlDreamer> are we scheduled for a 7.3.4 tomorrow, or are we holding off?
20:39 <@snapcount> tomorrow morning
20:39 <@snapcount> preaction-m is doing the release this week
20:40 <@snapcount> cross-training++
20:40 <+perlDreamer> I'll pray for him
20:40 <+perlDreamer> releases aren't easy
20:40 <@snapcount> heh, it's an adventure
20:40 <+perlDreamer> you've done some automation for them?
20:40 <@snapcount> yeah it's automated quite a bit
20:41 <@snapcount> preparing svn can be tricky when there's a branch
20:41 <@snapcount> but this release will be pretty easy
20:42  * perlDreamer chomps at the bit for 7.4
20:42 <+perlDreamer> I would like to be an RFE fiend for 7.4
20:42 <+perlDreamer> get rid of the last few remaining javascript-less confirmation screens
20:42 <+perlDreamer> Help system improvements
20:45 <+perlDreamer> all pending approval, of course
20:47 <@khenn> you can always add it locally and wait to check it in ...
20:47 <@khenn> I guess that gets kinda mess though with merges and such
20:47 <+perlDreamer> yeah, plus I'm overhauling the docs all the time
20:47 <+perlDreamer> I could make a separate branch just for that, thought
20:48 <+perlDreamer> I was only able to carve out 1 Gb for $dayJob hackery
20:48 <@preaction-m> and just merge on tuesdays?
20:50 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't really matter when you merge, although frequently is better than infrequently
20:50 <@snapcount> I believe all of the JS confirmation RFE's came from JT
20:50 <@preaction-m> indeed
20:50 <@snapcount> so they are approved
20:50 <+perlDreamer> JT typed them in from SourceForge
20:50 <+perlDreamer> so they have his ID
20:50 <@snapcount> oh I see
20:50 <@snapcount> I thought they made a user called sourceforge for that
20:51 <@snapcount> in any case, just post to dev and say I want to commit RFE x, y, z
20:51 <@snapcount> we trust your code
20:51 <@snapcount> =)
20:52 <@snapcount> I'm sure the response will be "ok"
20:52 <@preaction-m> he has svn access, i sure hope you trust his code :p
20:52 <+perlDreamer> fe@r my l33t hacking skillz
20:52 <@snapcount> of course we need a stinking branch
20:52 <@snapcount> and before that we need a stinking stable release
20:52 <@snapcount> sigh*
20:52 <@snapcount> vicious cycle
20:53 <@preaction-m> i think we should branch right after minor releases, so 7.4 will have a branch, and head will continue development
20:53 <@preaction-m> so bugfixes can be backported
20:53 <@snapcount> the reasons we don't are:
20:53 <@preaction-m> but opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
20:53 <@snapcount> 1) to keep people focused on making a release stable
20:53 <@snapcount> and not just working on cool stuff
20:54 <@snapcount> 2) merging to branch/head on every commit is a pain in the ass
20:54 <@preaction-m> pardon me if i call bullshit on (1)
20:54 <@snapcount> so we delay that as long as possible
20:54 <@snapcount> bullshit?  there is no bullshit here
20:54 <@snapcount> only happiness and kittens
20:54 <@preaction-m> (2) is just as easy as "svn diff > patch.txt" before you commit, then "patch -p0 < patch.txt" in the branched stable
20:55 <@snapcount> yes
20:55 <+perlDreamer> or svn merge -r rev1:rev2
20:55 <@snapcount> and svn commit is easier
20:55 <@snapcount> I didn't say how much harder (2) was =)
20:55 <+perlDreamer> I can't find the list of show stopper bugs for 7.3 on the dev list
20:55 <@snapcount> wow
20:55 <@snapcount> irony
20:55 <@preaction-m> something has to give, in some way it will be made more difficult
20:55 <@snapcount> prolly a bug
20:56 <+perlDreamer> is it just bug volume?
20:56 <+perlDreamer> ug
20:56 <@preaction-m> whether it be by using another program that does the SVN commits, or by doing the steps above
20:56 <+perlDreamer> that's a bug, too
20:56 <+perlDreamer> when I replied via email, it created a new thread
20:57 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: If I remember correctly, we need to fix all the Calendar and WIki bugs
20:57 <+perlDreamer> how about RSS?
20:57 <@snapcount> the CS bug that I specified preaction-m has fixed
20:57 <@snapcount> is it broken?
20:58 <@preaction-m> i'm worrking on one of the calendar bugs (the one reported by kristie and alafondo)
20:58 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/rss-generation-not-working-in-cs#e3L-Yrd3aeEdtPwGLVc9XQ
20:58 <@snapcount> oh yeah
20:58 <@snapcount> that's that new quasi-asset thingy
20:58 <+perlDreamer> hey, there's another bug we can close:
20:58 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/resolved-rfes-appearing-in-search-results#wJJyZzLJd8I0M6tvbnUuCw
20:59 <+perlDreamer> Roy, if you have time, please check it out and see if it's related to the same behavior in the bug system
20:59 <@snapcount> not sure that's a bug
21:00 <@snapcount> think of it in the context of the forums
21:00 <@snapcount> closed issues you'd want to find
21:00 <@snapcount> as well as closed bugs, so you know if they were found/fixed
21:00 <+perlDreamer> yeah
21:00 <+perlDreamer> good point
21:00 <+perlDreamer> should we close it out?
21:00 <@snapcount> might be nice to add an RFE to limit results to one or the other
21:01 <@snapcount> yes
21:01 <+perlDreamer> I'll do that with the RFE suggestion.
21:01 <+perlDreamer> yay! One less bug
21:01 <@snapcount> rock on
21:01 <@snapcount> ok... back to other crap for a while
21:02 <@snapcount> I'll peak in again in a bit
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22:46 <@snapcount> Paging rizen of the Smiths whom hail from the land of cheese and dairy
22:47 <@snapcount> preaction-m: you need to see if your bot can run the UNO game
22:47 <@snapcount> otherwise we'll have to off it in favor of an eggdrop bot
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot is custom source, not eggdrop or anything else
22:48 <@snapcount> we also need to get seen, and calc going again
22:48 <@rizen> don't page me
22:48 <@preaction-m> freenode has seenserv
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot seen rizen
22:48 <@snapcount> blah
22:48 <@snapcount> can I hail you?
22:48 <@preaction-m> perlbot doesn't
22:49 <@rizen> no hailing, paging, or yelling at me
22:49 <@snapcount> what if I whisper
22:49 <@rizen> you can bow before me if you want though
22:50 <@snapcount> I want to know how you want something to work
22:50 <@snapcount> so I can uhh, make it work
22:50 <@snapcount> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/wiki-deleting-pages#1N7SMyGT56ji8X2z6qc4zg
22:51 <@rizen> deleted pages suck
22:51 <@snapcount> indeed
22:51 <@snapcount> so a new "suck" flag in the schema should do the trick
22:52 <@rizen> i assume you already added the delete confirmation, right?
22:52 <@rizen> so now all we need to solve is the recent pages thing?
22:52 <@snapcount> not yet... was going to fix it all at once
22:52 <@snapcount> you just the recent pages
22:52 <@snapcount> all I need you for
22:52 <@snapcount> just wasn't sure how it should work
22:52 <@rizen> it needs to do one of two things
22:52 <@rizen> i'll let you decide which you'd rather do
22:53 <@rizen> a) when a page is deleted, don't show that entry in the recent changes log
22:53 <@rizen> or any revisions of it in the recent changes
22:54 <@rizen> b) show "Page deleted by X on 1/13/2006" without linking the title
22:54 <@rizen> but then add a (Restore) link in parens
22:54 <@rizen> that undeletes it
22:54 <@snapcount> only wiki admins see restore correct
22:54 <@rizen> right
22:54 <@snapcount> ok
22:54 <@snapcount> thx homey
22:54 <@rizen> not your homey
22:55 <@snapcount> you can be my "dogg"
22:55 <@preaction-m> if only wiki admins can see "restore" then only they should be able to delete
22:55 <@snapcount> note the double g
22:55 <@snapcount> that's how it is preaction-m
22:55 <@rizen> right, only wiki admins should be able to delete
22:55 < ckotil> sure thing iggy popp
22:55 <@preaction-m> k, making sure
22:55 <@rizen> i won't be your dogg either
22:55 <@snapcount> gawd...
22:55 <@rizen> if you were from australia, i'd be your mate
22:55 <@rizen> but you're not
22:55 <@snapcount> whoa
22:55 <@rizen> so you can't do that either
22:56 <@snapcount> "check please"
22:56 <@snapcount> hehe
22:56 <@rizen> cuz "mate" means something totally different here
22:56 < ckotil> heh
22:56 <@rizen> tell you what snapcount
22:56 <@preaction-m> roy's from FL, can he be your rich, senile, elderly relative?
22:56 <@snapcount> ouch
22:56 <@rizen> i'll be happy to be "the thorn in your side"
22:57 <@rizen> or "the thing that should not be"
22:57 <@rizen> or "a pain in your ass"
22:57 <@snapcount> oh... btw, I think Koen is interested in sponsoring a demo server
22:57 <@snapcount> he posted to the dev list about it
22:58 <@rizen> yeah and i posted a response
22:58 <@snapcount> ok you can be the "pain in the ass" cuz I can abbreviate it easily
22:58 <@rizen> sponsoring a demo server doesn't do anyone much good though
22:58 <@rizen> cuz it doesnt' solve any existing problems
23:00 <@snapcount> ahh
23:00 <@snapcount> damn spammers
23:01 <@snapcount> I think it's cool that he offered though
23:04 -!- perlDreamer_lunc is now known as perlDreamer
23:07 <@rizen> i just asked him if he'd be interested in running forge.webgui.org
23:07 <@snapcount> sweet
23:07 <@rizen> instead of setting up a seperate demo server that doesn't serve any need
23:07 <@rizen> forge.webgui.org would be really cool
23:07 <@rizen> but the problem i've seen so far is
23:07 < ckotil> pronounced for-hey ?
23:07 <@rizen> that there are no good free forge packages out there
23:08 <@rizen> i looked into buying source forge for webgui
23:08 <@rizen> and it was going to be 10k or something rediculous
23:08 < ckotil> ah.jeezus
23:08 < ckotil> we have a source forge account for one of our apps. router proxy
23:08 < ckotil> i cant believe it would have costed that much
23:08 <@rizen> we have a source forge account for webgui too
23:08 < ckotil> is it 10 grand because of the complexity of webgui?
23:09 <@rizen> but i mean to run a seperate forge system for webgui
23:09 < ckotil> i see.
23:09 <@rizen> if you're just out on sourceforge.net
23:09 <@rizen> it's free
23:09 <@rizen> but if you want to run your own forge
23:09 <@rizen> that's when they charge you
23:09  * ckotil nods
23:09 < ckotil> s/rape/charge
23:09 <@rizen> indeed
23:22 <@snapcount> preaction-m: what time do you want to get started tomorrow on the release?
23:23 <@snapcount> need to start by 9a your time cause I have to get other stuff done
23:23 <@snapcount> but we can start earlier if you would like
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23:24 <@snapcount> nice of you to join us again perlDreamer
23:24 < perlDreamer> you intercepted a Ctrl-W
23:24 <@preaction-m> snapcount: 9a sounds good
23:24 <@snapcount> preaction-m: coolio, I'll skype you
23:25 <@snapcount> the first step of the release you need to do now though
23:25 <@snapcount> email dev list and tell them no commits after 9a CST tomorrow
23:25 <@snapcount> until the release is on pb.com
23:25 <@snapcount> I got an interception eh perlDreamer
23:26 < perlDreamer> similar to a rogue bludger
23:26 <@snapcount> I'm afraid to ask
23:27 < perlDreamer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bludger_%28Harry_Potter%29
23:28 <@snapcount> that's another thing I miss is tinyUrl from the old bot
23:28 < perlDreamer> whatever happned to WRE?
23:28 <@preaction-m> perlbot shorten it
23:28 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/t7ci
23:29 <@snapcount> nice
23:29 <@snapcount> can you make him do it automatically?
23:29 <@snapcount> the guy hosting him for us had the server take a crap
23:29 < perlDreamer> sure! preaction-m: say perlbot shorten it
23:29 <@preaction-m> or anyone can say it
23:29 <@snapcount> uhh
23:30 <@snapcount> www.foo.net
23:30  * snapcount taps his fingers
23:30  * snapcount whistles a tune
23:30 < perlDreamer> snappy likes his bots automated
23:30 < perlDreamer> Kari likes her toast butter-side up
23:30 <@snapcount> lessWork++
23:35  * perlDreamer is confusing data structures
23:35 <@preaction-m> perlbot shorten www.foo.net
23:35 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://tinyurl.com/ydvg6h
23:35 < perlDreamer> that's shorter, all rightey
23:35 <@preaction-m> that's hardly perlbot's fault.. you guys are too hard on her
23:35 < perlDreamer> she's only doing what she's told
23:36 < perlDreamer> I just don't get the whole URL shortening thing
23:36 < perlDreamer> what's the point
23:36 < perlDreamer> you either point and click, or highlight and copy
23:36 <@preaction-m> if you have to remember it for a screen session, or a terminal session
23:38 < perlDreamer> does anyone have a SOAP site that they use for testing the WSclient?
23:40 <@rizen> i used to use google's search api
23:40 <@rizen> but that's apparently gone now
23:40 <@rizen> if you can still get access to it
23:40 <@rizen> then there's a document in webgui done right
23:40 <@rizen> that explains how to use it
23:41 < perlDreamer> okay
23:42 < perlDreamer> ah
23:42 < perlDreamer> here it is
23:42 < perlDreamer> hidden away in the Content Managers area
23:46 <@rizen> snapcount
23:46 <@rizen> did that rss feed bug i reported get fixed
23:47 <@rizen> nevermind..ooking
23:56 < ckotil> Is there documentation explaining the methods that make up a wobject?
23:56 < ckotil> i understand some of them from looking at examples.
23:57 <@rizen> there's the api docs
23:57 <@rizen> linked from webguidev.com
23:57 <@rizen> and there's also the wobject tutorial
23:57 < ckotil> ok. thanks
23:57 <@rizen> from the same site
23:57 < ckotil> yah i went through the trivia tut, but not the one from WUC
23:59 < ckotil> ya i guess all i need is here in the wobject.html
--- Day changed Wed Jan 10 2007
00:00 < ckotil> but...seems some are missing. like view and prepare_view
00:00 < ckotil> are they missing or just located elsewhere?
00:00 <@rizen> i don't know what you're asking me
00:01 <@rizen> or what you're even looking at
00:01 < ckotil> http://www.plainblack.com/downloads/builds/7.3.3-beta/api/Asset/Wobject.html
00:01 < ckotil> im looking at that wondering where the methods view and prepare_view are
00:01 < ckotil> prepareView*
00:03 <@rizen> they are inherited from asset
00:03 <@rizen> wobjects are assets
00:03 <@rizen> the stuff documented in there is just the new stuff that only wobjects have
00:03 <@rizen> so you need to go back one folder
00:03 < ckotil> ah.
00:03 < ckotil> makes sense to me. 
00:03 <@rizen> and look at all the files that start with "Asset"
00:04 <@rizen> there are hundreds of methods defined in there
00:04 <@rizen> and among them are prepareView
00:04 <@rizen> and view
00:04 < ckotil> kthx
00:05 < ckotil> oh sweet.
00:05 < ckotil> i cant believe i didnt grasp this sooner.
00:17 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_away
01:19 <@preaction-m> is it legal to use ^Macro; without the parens?
01:20 <@rizen> yes
01:20 <@rizen> as long as there are no parameters to pass in, no need to specify parens
01:20 <@preaction-m> ok, so it's not that
01:21 < perlDreamer> you tracking down a macro bug?
01:21 <@preaction-m> a site performance issue caused by macro use
01:22 < perlDreamer> which macros are being used?
01:22 <@preaction-m> THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH SPACER GIFS
01:22 <@preaction-m> looks like this one is using ^FileUrl and an invalid filename
01:22 <@preaction-m> in a style template
01:22 <@rizen> no one should ever be using a spacer gif
01:22  * perlDreamer remembers ^Spacer
01:22 <@rizen> they should instead use ^Spacer(10,5);
01:23 <@preaction-m> you should SEE how many spacer gifs they're using in this damnable site
01:23 <@preaction-m> there's padding and margin CSS properties, that's what those are for
01:23 -!- khenn [n=fdillon@66-190-54-175.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
01:23 <@rizen> 2 things
01:23 <@rizen> a) this may be the cause of the error, cuz they specified an invald url somwhere
01:24 <@rizen> b) spacer gifs will definitely not perform as well as the spacer macro
01:24 <@rizen> i highly recommend changing out the spacer gifs for spacer macros
01:24 <@rizen> and that shouldnt' be your job
01:24 <@rizen> but rather tell the client to do that
01:24 <@rizen> we can do it for them, but we'll have to charge them
01:24 <@preaction-m> i'm composing a note to them, the "invalid asset url" has to be a macro being used as an argument for another macro, i have yet to pin down where that is
01:25 <@rizen> using spacer gifs rather than spacer macros is about 10x slower
01:25 <@preaction-m> nd i found the SQL problem, they're using a macro in there too, but not quoted
01:26 < perlDreamer> s/<img src="[^"]+" width="?(\d+)"? height="?(\d+)"?>/^Spacer($1,$2);/sg;
01:26 < perlDreamer> or maybe $2,$1
01:26 < perlDreamer> use /isg for case insensitivity
01:32 <@rizen> i'm having a hard time figuring out what to put in the admin guide
01:33 <@rizen> i've already defined 11 chapters, and written four of them
01:33 < perlDreamer> User Profile
01:33 < perlDreamer> Groups
01:33 < perlDreamer> DatabaseLinks
01:33 < perlDreamer> Groups of Groups and privileges
01:33 <@rizen> but that only gets me up to 41 pages so far
01:33 <@rizen> all of those are in there
01:33 < perlDreamer> Packages
01:33 < perlDreamer> Prototypes
01:33 < perlDreamer> UI levels
01:33 <@rizen> those aren't admin functions
01:34 < perlDreamer> hmmmm.....
01:34 <@rizen> they are included in the content managers guide
01:34 <@rizen> here are my chapters:
01:34 < perlDreamer> Workflows and Workflow Activities
01:34 <@rizen> Installation
01:34 <@rizen> Backups
01:34 <@rizen> Upgrades
01:34 <@rizen> Performance
01:34 <@rizen> Managing Users
01:34 <@rizen> Managing Groups
01:34 <@rizen> LDAP
01:34 <@rizen> Database Links
01:34 <@rizen> SSL
01:34 <@rizen> Logging
01:34 <@rizen> Troubleshooting
01:35 <@rizen> More Resources
01:35 <@rizen> You think that Workflows should go into admin guide rather than the CM guide?
01:35 < perlDreamer> wouldn't the CM's use Workflows provided to them?
01:35 <@rizen> i suppose so
01:35 < perlDreamer> How about Replacements?
01:35 <@rizen> part of my problem is
01:36 <@rizen> that i'm both
01:36 <@rizen> so i'm having a hard time distinguishing the audience
01:36 <@rizen> =)
01:36 <@preaction-m> nothing on Apache/Mysql/etc...?
01:36 <@rizen> Yeah, I suppose replacements would be good
01:36 <@rizen> Apache/Mysql are covered in the various chapters that deal with them
01:37 <@rizen> install/upgrades/performance
01:37 <@rizen> etc
01:37 < perlDreamer> The Commerce stuff is going to change. Is it worth documenting the current state?
01:37 <@rizen> the commerce stuff goes into cm guide
01:37 <@rizen> at least the stuff that we're documenting does
01:37 <@rizen> when we redo the commerce system
01:37 <@rizen> there will be a whole new guide
01:37 <@rizen> just for that
01:38 <@rizen> i guess adding replacements and workflows will give me some more chapters
01:38 < perlDreamer> how about the scripts in sbin?
01:39 < perlDreamer> That's only a few pages
01:41 <@rizen> i'm actually covering each of those in the relevant sections
01:42 <@rizen> userImport.pl is covered in users
01:42 <@rizen> for example
01:42 < perlDreamer> There's not much to WebGUI Administration.
01:42 < perlDreamer> Most of it is Content Management
01:42 < perlDreamer> and Users
01:43 < perlDreamer> isn't that the beauty of it?
01:43 <@rizen> true, but i want to give people some real guts they can sink their teeth into
01:43 <@rizen> i think i'm going to add a lot more examples
01:43 < perlDreamer> clustering
01:43 < perlDreamer> replication
01:43 < perlDreamer> failover
01:43 <@rizen> like crazy things you can do with loggin
01:44 <@rizen> logging
01:44 <@rizen> that's not a bad idea
01:44 <@rizen> that could be a book in itself
01:44 <@rizen> because there are thousands of configurations
01:44 < perlDreamer> btw, still trying to find a SOAP server that will spew some data at me
01:45 <@rizen> have you tried xmethods
01:45 < perlDreamer> yes
01:45 <@rizen> xmethods.net
01:45 < perlDreamer> everything seems very unit oriented
01:45 <@rizen> how about amazon a9 
01:45 <@rizen> or yahoo search api
01:45 < perlDreamer> do I needa key?
01:45 <@rizen> probably
01:45 <@rizen> i don't actually use any of this stuff
01:45 <@rizen> i personally hate soap
01:46 < perlDreamer> given the state of the docs, I would guess that no one else does, either
01:46 < perlDreamer> all of the pagination variables were wrong
01:46 <@rizen> donorware uses it extensively
01:46 <@rizen> but they wrote it
01:46 <@rizen> and they use it for their own web services
01:47 < perlDreamer> I'll email Mike.
01:52 <@preaction-m> does anyone know how to disable the default apache on OSX server, i can't find anything in the docs. is it as simple as putting something in rc.local?
01:53 <@rizen> yes its even easier than that
01:53 <@rizen> Apple icon (upper right corner) > System Preferences
01:53 <@rizen> Sharing
01:54 <@rizen> Services
01:54 <@rizen> Uncheck "Personal Web Sharing"
01:54 <@rizen> done
01:54 -!- Radix-wrk [n=Jesse@203.161.68.67] has joined #webgui
01:54 <@rizen> ok guys...gotta go for a while
01:54 -!- rizen is now known as rizen_afk
01:55 < perlDreamer> later, rizen
01:55 < perlDreamer> howdy, Radix
02:06 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has quit [""""]
02:39 < Radix-wrk> mornin'
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05:31 -!- rizen_afk is now known as rizen
05:50 <@preaction-m> rizen: you around?
05:51 <@rizen> indeed
05:52 <@preaction-m> i just failed an upgrade from 6.8.10 - 6.99.0 because OSX has an incompatible libiconv for the WRE 0.7.2
05:53 <@preaction-m> did i miss something easy?
05:54 <@preaction-m> or.. was i just supposed to keep using the 0.6.0 WRE until later?
05:54 <@rizen> i haven't ever seen that error before
05:54 <@rizen> but you're on intel mac
05:54 <@rizen> we don't have a wre for that
05:54 <@preaction-m> not me
05:54 <@preaction-m> www.crmleaders.org
05:55 <@preaction-m> APR wants libiconv with 6.0.0, and the one that's with 10.4 only provides 5.0.0 (whatever those version numbers mean)
05:55 <@preaction-m> rather, that's with the version of 10.4 (ppc) that this person has
05:55 <@rizen> interesting
05:55 <@preaction-m> i rolled back, everythings AOK, they're at 6.8.10 currently
05:55 <@rizen> it worked on my mac
05:55 <@rizen> so it must be that one of the more recent patches
05:55 <@rizen> has changed this for mac
05:55 <@preaction-m> i imagined it did
05:56 <@rizen> i guess you're going to need to compile a new wre for PPC
05:56 <@preaction-m> perhaps try 0.7.0 tomorrow? of course i was only assuming that 0.6.0 wouldn't work
05:56 <@rizen> i don't know how else you'd get around it
05:56 <@rizen> yeah, you can't use 0.6.0
05:56 <@preaction-m> good lord in heaven, and we're going to have to charge him for this?
05:56 <@rizen> and i don't recommend going backwards
05:57 <@rizen> do you have any better ideas?
05:57 <@preaction-m> don't recommend either, but it luckily worked
05:57 <@preaction-m> none
05:57 <@preaction-m> i can only hope that compiling against the libiconv that they have will fix it
05:57 <@rizen> wait...it worked to go back to 0.7.0?
05:57 <@preaction-m> to 0.6.0
05:57 <@preaction-m> it Seems to have worked, at least
05:58 <@rizen> you mean that the upgrade worked
05:58 <@rizen> not running webgui
05:58 <@rizen> 0.6.0 wre isn't capable of running webgui 7
05:58 <@preaction-m> i only made it to 6.8.10
05:58 <@rizen> at least not without installing a whole mess of perl modules
05:58 <@rizen> and perhaps other stuff
05:58 <@preaction-m> i was working on going to 6.99.* when i failed
05:58 <@preaction-m> and between there i installed WRE 0.7.2
05:59 <@rizen> i don't know what to tell you
05:59 <@rizen> i think you're going to have to compile a wre for them
05:59 <@rizen> they need to get to 7.x of webgui
05:59 <@preaction-m> c'est la vie, i'll e-mail john to tell him the situation, i'll CC vrby and tell them that TMRFE says that a custom compile might be the only way
05:59 <@rizen> and if you're saying the one we provide doesn't work
05:59 <@rizen> i don't know what else to do
06:00 <@rizen> TMRFE?
06:00 <@preaction-m> The Man Responsible For Everything
06:00 <@rizen> heh
06:01 <@preaction-m> at any rate, wingers awaits, friends already piss drunk apparently so that oughta be interesting (i just want food)
06:01 <@rizen> have fun
06:01 <@preaction-m> i'll try, failure usually puts me in a foul mood :(
06:07 -!- MPedersenJ [n=MPederse@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
06:08 < MPedersenJ> What the??? How am I still connected? I've close all copies I'm aware of.
06:08 <@rizen> perhaps you're being spoofed
06:08 -!- PedersenMJ [n=marvin@mail.icelus.biz] has quit ["I'm a dumbass. Left myself logged in in a screen session."]
06:09 < MPedersenJ> Didn't even realize I'd done it, obviously.
06:09 < MPedersenJ> Anyway, since the real me has now stood up, hi again :)
06:10 <@rizen> howdy
06:10 <@rizen> you know something else that might have happened, that sometimes happens to me
06:10 <@rizen> if i'm carrying my laptop around my house
06:10 <@rizen> sometimes i'll lose wifi signal
06:10 <@rizen> and then the irc client will connect me twice
06:10 <@rizen> when the signal comes back
06:12 < MPedersenJ> Nope, this one is entirely my dumbass. Anybody know how long I'd left myself idle? I'd opened a screen session, logged in to irc, and then put screen into the background. Since it's on my server, it could have gone on in usage forever.
06:18 < MPedersenJ> Anyway, how's things going?
06:18 <@rizen> pretty damn spectacular i'd say
06:19 <@rizen> half my staff (including me) are in the process of writing three big new books for webgui
06:19 <@rizen> it's pretty cool
06:19 <@rizen> we've never taken on a documentation effort of this scope before
06:20 <@rizen> and everyone is coming up with some really cool cookbook ideas for doing new things in webgui
06:20 <@rizen> what's new on your end?
06:20 < MPedersenJ> Sweet! That sounds like it'd be awesome for me (I need lots of work on my webgui skills).
06:22 <@rizen> i'll give you a quick example
06:22 < MPedersenJ> For me, I've got an idea for webgui which is definitely *not* the norm: A module which handles web based editing of a squid config file. Still not sure if I should do it. Also going to be doing an online novel, and using webgui as the host platform for the entire website. Since it's also meant to be an RPG (tabletop, not computerized), and I want to post lots of other data about the world the novel is set in, a whole site is definitely justified.
06:22 <@rizen> one recipe that i put into the new admin guide is a way to make your webgui log email you
06:22 <@rizen> when there is a fatal error
06:23 <@rizen> that way you don't have to go through your logs every day...just wait for the system to tell you there's a problem
06:23 <@rizen> it's simple, but very useful
06:23 < MPedersenJ> Yeah, that would be *very* cool.
06:23 < MPedersenJ> With the way I have things set up, I might try and update it to send me an IM over Jabber, instead, but that's just because I'm weird, and use IM more than email :)
06:24 <@rizen> actually, i'm going to put a recipe in there for that too if i can figure it out
06:24 <@rizen> cuz i would probably also prefer to be IM'd
06:24 < Radix-wrk> that using the log4perl stuff to email it?
06:24 <@rizen> yes
06:24 <@rizen> it's really not hard to do it
06:25 <@preaction-m> rizen: could you run `otool -L /data/wre/prereqs/apache/bin/httpd` and tell me what it says for /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib?
06:25 < MPedersenJ> rizen, do you have O'Reilly Safari access?
06:25 < Radix-wrk> someone (perhaps even you JT) mentioned that at the WUC, I had it noted down as something to look into in my spare time actually :)
06:25 <@rizen> and if people would dig through the docs for log4perl it would be easy
06:25 <@rizen> but the docs are pretty dense
06:25 <@rizen> so i think people just like things laid out for them
06:26 < Radix-wrk> So what are the three books for?  Content Designers, Administrators and Developers or something like that?
06:26 <@rizen> preaction: /data/wre/prereqs/apache/bin/httpd:
06:26 <@rizen>         /data/wre/prereqs/utils/lib/libz.1.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1.2.3)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libssl.0.9.7.dylib (compatibility version 0.9.7, current version 0.9.7)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libcrypto.0.9.7.dylib (compatibility version 0.9.7, current version 0.9.7)
06:26 <@rizen>         /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libaprutil-0.0.dylib (compatibility version 10.0.0, current version 10.12.0)
06:26 <@rizen>         /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libexpat.0.dylib (compatibility version 2.0.0, current version 2.0.0)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libiconv.2.dylib (compatibility version 5.0.0, current version 5.0.0)
06:26 <@rizen>         /data/wre/prereqs/apache/lib/libapr-0.0.dylib (compatibility version 10.0.0, current version 10.12.0)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libresolv.9.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 369.2.0)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 88.1.7)
06:26 <@rizen>         /usr/lib/libmx.A.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 92.0.0)
06:26 <@rizen> i did have safari access, but never used it so i closed it off last month
06:27 <@rizen> radix: yeah, i mentioned that example at the wuc last year
06:27 <@rizen> and actually at the 2007 wuc i'll be giving a whole talk on logging tips and tricks
06:27 <@preaction-m> rizen: so you have the same version i have, and they have. are you using WRE 0.7.2?
06:27 <@rizen> yeah, the three books are content managers, admins, and designers
06:27 <@rizen> yes
06:28 <@preaction-m> wtf...
06:28 < MPedersenJ> http://www.openp2p.com/pub/a/p2p/2002/01/11/jabber_bots.html
06:28 < Radix-wrk> Doubt I'll be able to go to the WUC this year (costs a bit much to send me over really) - but definitely interested in the books :)
06:28 < MPedersenJ> That URL should help, I think, figuring out the email<->IM gateway.
06:28 <@preaction-m> but anyway, no more work today
06:28  * preaction-m & eats
06:28 < Radix-wrk> enjoy :)
06:29 <@rizen> radix: totally understand
06:30 <@rizen> mpedersenj: actually i know of a company who controlls their entire provisioning system through jabber
06:30 <@rizen> just the way this article is talking about
06:30 <@rizen> they can also gather stats and statuses on all their systems and clients
06:31 <@rizen> radix: we're also going to start doing webinars at some point
06:31 <@rizen> so you'll be able to get wuc-type presentations live, online
06:31 < MPedersenJ> I'd do the same if I could. My boss, though... Curious mix. Cisco networking guy (one test away from CCIE), and can't get along with the command line.
06:31 <@rizen> weird
06:31 <@rizen> cisco guys usually like cli
06:32 < MPedersenJ> Oh, and insecure, to boot. Very weird. So, even though I might have very cool ideas on things we can do, we won't use them, because I make a lot of command line stuff.
06:35 < Radix-wrk> rizen: that'd be cool
06:36 <@rizen> email info@plainblack.com if you'd like to be notified when the webinars will start
06:36 <@rizen> i think that they're scheduled to start sometime in february, but i don't know for sure
06:36 <@rizen> btw...how many people at your company do webgui?
06:36 <@rizen> cuz the webinar subscription allows everyone in your company to attend
06:37 < MPedersenJ> Well, if it were *my* company, it'd be just me. I'll be the one introducing it there :)
06:38 <@rizen> heh...but if you're successful
06:38 <@rizen> then others would join you i assume
06:38 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. I'm really the only one who does anything serious - the others use Webgui, but don't really work with it in-depth.
06:38 < Radix-wrk> they do more content management stuff
06:38 <@rizen> we have some clients who have 50-100 people that will be attending the webinars
06:38 <@rizen> some of the webinars will be technical
06:38 <@rizen> some will be more for publishers
06:39 <@rizen> it will be different every time
06:39 < MPedersenJ> I'd love to have more join in. I don't know, though. Sometimes, I feel rather like I'm just in the way. Other times, I feel like I'm the one leading the way. It's a job, eh?
06:39 < MPedersenJ> Enough whining from me :)
06:39 <@rizen> not all will be interesting to everyone
06:39 <@rizen> hehe
06:39 <@rizen> when you're doing your job right
06:39 < Radix-wrk> Sounds interesting - and needs an additional subscription to be able to watch?
06:39 <@rizen> you should feel like that
06:40 <@rizen> yes there will be a seperate subscription for it
06:40 <@rizen> i don't know what that will be though
06:40 <@rizen> because these will be live presentations
06:40 <@rizen> and we need to produce content for each one
06:40 <@rizen> there will be a cost to it
06:40 <@rizen> to cover our cost
06:40 < Radix-wrk> yup
06:42 < Radix-wrk> I doubt my boss would go for it unless we need to do a whole lot of new stuff with Webgui really - and we're pretty happy with our site at the moment - doing very little on it atm.
06:43 < Radix-wrk> Just maintenance and slowly adding more content for our own customers (flash videos/tutorials/etc..)
06:43 < MPedersenJ> Hey, this might be a good place to ask: what are ballpark rates for a new style for webgui? ie: If I ask plainblack to make a new theme/style, what are common rates for that?
06:43 <@rizen> that's understandable man
06:43 <@rizen> depends upon what you want
06:43 <@rizen> but i know we've done some for less than $1k
06:43 <@rizen> and i know that we've done some for more than $10k
06:44 <@rizen> what it really comes down to is how many options you want
06:44 < MPedersenJ> Mostly, it's a case of a few graphics, removal of some stuff, I think.
06:44 <@rizen> for example, the one we did for more than $10k we came up with more than 30 mockups
06:44 < MPedersenJ> Although, even at $1K, that rules out going to you guys for my novel website.
06:45 <@rizen> if this is just an adjustment of something existing
06:45 <@rizen> it will be less than $500
06:45 <@rizen> regardless
06:45 <@rizen> if this is for your free online community
06:45 < MPedersenJ> What tools do you use for mockups? I get the feeling that pen/paper is the best choice, but somehow it feels weird to do a mockup on paper for a web page.
06:45 <@rizen> you should check out one of the open source template sites
06:46 <@rizen> we do all our mockups in photoshop and illustrator
06:46 < MPedersenJ> Tools that don't fit me well at all (since what I know about them is how to spell them).
06:46 < MPedersenJ> Ah well... Under $500? That I might be able to manage for the novel site.
06:46 < Radix-wrk> I think that everything should start with pencil and paper first :) - you need a plan before you put anything on the computer
06:47 < MPedersenJ> I'm hoping to put webgui into our corporate intranet at work.
06:47 < MPedersenJ> Correction: I'm hoping to make our corporate intranet out of webgui, since we don't have one at all right now.
06:47 < Radix-wrk> We're using webgui for our intranet also - tis great
06:47 <@rizen> http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/opensource.cfm
06:48 < MPedersenJ> Speaking of which: I've been wondering about the wiki module. I've seen mention of it, but haven't seen the module itself. Any idea of when that beast might be release?
06:48 <@rizen> it is released
06:48 < Radix-wrk> it's in the latest 7.3.x builds
06:48 <@rizen> it's in 7.3
06:48 < Radix-wrk> you can see it on the demo site
06:48 < Radix-wrk> or the community wiki itself
06:48 <@rizen> http://www.plainblack.com/support/community-wiki
06:48 < MPedersenJ> Aha! I hadn't gotten there yet, was still on 7.2 :)
06:49 <@rizen> 7.3 isn't stable yet
06:49 <@rizen> stay on 7.2
06:49 <@rizen> with any luck we'll go stable next week
06:49 < Radix-wrk> hehe
06:49 < Radix-wrk> that opensource templates site is pretty neat.. never seen that before
06:49 < MPedersenJ> Sweet! That will be the moment I'm waiting for :)
06:49 < MPedersenJ> Now, any chance of an automated moinmoin->webgui-wiki converter?
06:50 <@rizen> nope
06:50 <@rizen> unless you want to pay to have it developed =)
06:50 < MPedersenJ> Then I might have to write one, since that's our current wiki, and I'd want to merge that in.
06:50 <@rizen> the wiki in it's current form isn't very powerful
06:50 <@rizen> i ran out of time
06:51 <@rizen> so i didn't get to add uploads into it
06:51 <@rizen> and we also don't yet have a "diffs" utility
06:51 <@rizen> but those things will both come in time
06:51 < MPedersenJ> For what we use it for? That's still plenty.
06:53 < MPedersenJ> Thank you for that open source templates site. That's exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for!
06:53 <@rizen> np
06:53 <@rizen> incidentally, i'm pretty sure that we charge $400 to turn one of those into a working webgui package
06:54 <@rizen> that you can just deploy on your site
06:57 < MPedersenJ> How bad is it to choose a page which uses a darker background with a lighter font (as opposed to most of those templates, which go light background/dark foreground)? I mean, from a usability perspective.
06:58 <@rizen> depends upon your audience
06:58 <@rizen> if you're dealing with older people with eyesite problems
06:58 <@rizen> it's easier to read black on white
06:58 < Radix-wrk> it's also easier to print
06:58 <@rizen> but if your audience is younger
06:59 <@rizen> then it doesn't really matter
06:59 < Radix-wrk> though the makeprintable template helps there
06:59 <@rizen> radix: with webgui that's not true
06:59 <@rizen> yeah
06:59 <@rizen> exactly
07:00 < MPedersenJ> Dang... Dunno the eventual age range. Probably younger. The online novel is a horror novel. I'm trying to find ways to darken the actual theme of the site. Might just have to go with better graphics at the header to convey the idea.
07:02 < Radix-wrk> use a dark site design then :)
07:02 <@rizen> i agree...go dark
07:03 < Radix-wrk> don't use bright white text, try a lighter grey or soemthing.. that helps with the contrast issues
07:03 < Radix-wrk> and easier on the eyes
07:03 <@rizen> nah
07:03 <@rizen> use a dark blood red background
07:03 <@rizen> with dark black text on it
07:03 <@rizen> =)
07:03 < Radix-wrk> impossible to read then :)
07:03 <@rizen> that's the point
07:03 < MPedersenJ> Nah, though that *could* look good, it's not the motif I'm going for.
07:04 < MPedersenJ> It's a horror novel, set in a fantasy world, but a world in which the sun went dark about 500 years ago.
07:04 < Radix-wrk> reminds me of the old lucasarts games - they used to come with a codewheel that was maroon with black writing.  Almost impossible to photocopy then ;)
07:05 < Radix-wrk> Sounds like a cool novel MPedersenJ!
07:06 < MPedersenJ> I've actually got a fair amount about it decided. I need to build up the website, and write my first chapter, before I'll consider advertising it, though.
07:06 < Radix-wrk> heh
07:06 <@rizen> ooh, then this is what you need for a site design
07:07 <@rizen> http://dark.plainblack.com/
07:07 < MPedersenJ> I've also got a character who's rather a trip: Every night, since he was around 3, he's had a rather horrific nightmare. He's in a sword fight with a woman covered in black from head to toe. She always wins. Every night, he dies in his dreams.
07:07 < Radix-wrk> Sounds kinky.
07:08 < MPedersenJ> Heh. Actually, that cloud effect is pretty decent. I think I might go for a similar effect.
07:10 < Radix-wrk> http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=310
07:10 < MPedersenJ> As for kinky: Depends on whether or not you think you'd enjoy dying from various knifewounds would be kinky :)
07:12 < Radix-wrk> http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=277
07:12 < MPedersenJ> http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=277
07:12 < MPedersenJ> Heh, perfect timing :)
07:13 < MPedersenJ> http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=289
07:13 < MPedersenJ> That one might be the closest I have seen yet to what I had in mind.
07:14 < Radix-wrk> cool.. goferit then ;)
07:14 < Radix-wrk> http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=190 - this one is easier to read
07:16 < MPedersenJ> Yeah. Different format than I was looking for, though, but that should be quite bearable.
07:16 < MPedersenJ> Dang, need to save all these links, they're all good. Also found a bright one I could use for work at http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/templates/view.cfm?MultiFlex21
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07:18 < MPedersenJ> I found it! Perfection! http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=221
07:20 <+perlDreamer> that is a nice one
07:20 <+perlDreamer> you going to make it work for WebGUI?
07:20 < MPedersenJ> Especially for an online novel and web community around it, that should be fantastic.
07:21 < Radix-wrk> Looks good to me.
07:21 < MPedersenJ> Yeah, that I am. I'm tempted to take rizen up on an offer to make it work, after all, it's not expensive, but I did buy WebGUI Done Right already. I should use it :)
07:22 < Radix-wrk> that'd be pretty easy to get working really - it's pretty straight forward
07:22 <@rizen> if you get it working
07:23 <@rizen> you should make a package out of it
07:23 <@rizen> and put it up in the contribs section
07:23 <@rizen> that way others can benefit from your work
07:23 < MPedersenJ> I'll do that for both of the themes I've found.
07:23 < MPedersenJ> I might do a third, since I do have three sites I'd like to power using WebGUI.
07:24 < Radix-wrk> Start with one :)
07:24 < Radix-wrk> Get one working.. then you'll find the others easy :)
07:24 <@rizen> incidentally MPedersionJ: I'd prefer that you did it rather than having us do it.
07:24 <@rizen> it's always better to have more skilled people in the community
07:24 < MPedersenJ> Oh yeah. I'm only mildly crazy :)
07:25 <+perlDreamer> Just hang out here and/or the forums
07:25 < MPedersenJ> And, believe it or not, it's not about the money. I bought the online WDR for one reason: It met my personal needs. And it was me, not my company, that bought it. It's about being able to do it myself. I really do enjoy that.
07:26 <+perlDreamer> Which company do you work for?
07:27 < MPedersenJ> Actually, a retail store: www.6ave.com is their online presence (god, I can't wait until we get that site replaced, supposedly end of this month).
07:30 <@rizen> shit
07:30 <@rizen> i was hoping that i could get rid of WebGUI::Utility
07:30 <@rizen> every module i find is either more complicated than the utilities in there
07:31 <@rizen> or the utilities just don't exist
07:32 < MPedersenJ> So, the 3 I think I'm going to convert (just so you guys can see the designs): First, my horror novel site: http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=221
07:33 < MPedersenJ> Second: My employer company intranet site: http://www.opendesigns.org/preview/?template=65
07:33 < MPedersenJ> Third: My own business that I'm working on starting: http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/templates/view.cfm?andreas02
07:35 < MPedersenJ> Thanks again for pointing me to those two sites. They really help. I can code regular apps, but my website design skills suck the sweat off a dead man's balls.
07:36 < Radix-wrk> Actually.. that'd make an excellent tip to add to the wiki
07:37 < MPedersenJ> I'm on it! :D
07:45 < MPedersenJ> There, added in.
07:46 < Radix-wrk> cool
07:48 <+perlDreamer> anyone up for some bug triage?
07:49 <+perlDreamer> Imagine that you create a Folder Asset and set it to be viewable only by Content Managers
07:49 <+perlDreamer> Then you add several files to the Folder, and set each file to be viewable by Everyone.
07:50 <+perlDreamer> But the .wgaccess file added to the storage area overrides the File permissions.
07:51 <@rizen> why would that be
07:51 <@rizen> the .wgaccess file is set by each file individually, not by the folder
07:52 <@rizen> i don't see the problem
07:53 <@rizen> here's the thing
07:53 <@rizen> the visitor should not be able to access the folder view
07:53 <@rizen> but they should be able to access each file if they know the url of the file
07:53 <@rizen> cuz that's what you've set for permissions
07:53 <@rizen> if it works as i have stated above
07:53 <@rizen> and i think it does
07:53 <@rizen> then this is not a bug
07:56 <+perlDreamer> if you go in and manually change the file permissions after the upload, then Visitor _can_ see the file.
07:58 <+perlDreamer> so it looks like the permissions requested by the user during FilePile upload aren't being followed.  But maybe that's by design, too?
07:58 <@rizen> no that would be a bug
07:58 <@rizen> it should use whatever privs are set during upload
07:58 <+perlDreamer> crap
08:01 <@rizen> who saw the new iphone today?
08:01 <+perlDreamer> I did
08:01 <@rizen> is it just me or is that the coolest thing EVER
08:02 <+perlDreamer> It's a tricorder/PADD
08:02 <@rizen> it is a tricorder
08:02 <@rizen> and more
08:02 <+perlDreamer> true, tricorders couldn't make phone calls
08:03 <@rizen> it's a tricorder + communicator
08:03 <@rizen> now if they could just add a phaser
08:03 <@rizen> we'd be all good
08:03 <+perlDreamer> I've always wanted Spy Hunter gear for my car.
08:03 <+perlDreamer> It would solve all my traffic problems
08:05 <+perlDreamer> Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "Yes"!
08:06 <@rizen> "That's your entire plan Ray? 'Get em!'"
08:07 <+perlDreamer> But Mr. Stay Puffed is good....
08:09 <+perlDreamer> actually, most of the security tab is ignored
08:09 <+perlDreamer> I think we should nuke the Security tab on the FilePile and document that it inherits everything from the parent.
08:10 <@rizen> absolutely NOT
08:10 <+perlDreamer> okay
08:11 <+perlDreamer> the security tab should be prepopulated with info from the parent so that the security tab is obeyed?
08:11 <@rizen> yes
08:12 <+perlDreamer> Sensei, why?
08:12 <@rizen> why what?
08:12 <+perlDreamer> why not nuke the Security tab?
08:12 <@rizen> tell me yours and i'll tell you mine
08:13 <+perlDreamer> well, current behavior is to inherit from the parent no matter what.  The security tab on the FilePile misleads the user into thinking that their new choices will work.
08:13 <+perlDreamer> so it should be nuked.
08:13 <+perlDreamer> users can still go in and alter file permissions one by one
08:13 <+perlDreamer> and if they truly want mixed permissions, do it in different folders
08:13 <@rizen> you officially have the worst idea of 2007 so far
08:14 <+perlDreamer> Teach me, sensei.
08:14 <@rizen> that's like saying, all assets should not have a security tab when you first create the asset
08:14 <@rizen> because we should inherit from the parent
08:14 <@rizen> and if you wan tto change it you should go back in after the fact
08:14 <@rizen> here's the reason that you shouldn't nuke the tab
08:15 <@rizen> EVERYTHING ELSE HAS A SECURITY TAB THAT WORKS
08:15 <+perlDreamer> oh, fine.  Invoke the uniformity argument.
08:15 <@rizen> not only that though
08:15 <@rizen> but your argument is, the electric windows and locks don't work in the car, so let's take them out
08:15 <@rizen> rather than fixing them so they work
08:16 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
08:16 <@rizen> do you disagree?
08:16 <@rizen> i believe that is indeed your arguement
08:16 <+perlDreamer> That's my argument, but the origin is slightly different.
08:17 <+perlDreamer> The car looks like it should never have had locks.
08:17 <+perlDreamer> Because it's a convertible
08:17 <+perlDreamer> with a cloth top
08:17 <+perlDreamer> in Oregon
08:17 <@rizen> yeah, except all convertables have locks anyway
08:18  * perlDreamer bows
08:18 <+perlDreamer> Sensei, indeed you are wiser.
08:18 <@rizen> roy is going to be pissed at you
08:18 <+perlDreamer> not if I get it done in the next 8 hours
08:18 < MPedersenJ> Sorry guys, time for me to hit the sack (almost 1:30am out here). Will definitely be back. With some luck, we'll start seeing the first of those conversions by the end of the week.
08:19 <@rizen> he was hoping to have the worst idea of 2007
08:19 <@rizen> cuz he got the worst idea of 2006 award
08:19 <+perlDreamer> It's early
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08:20 <+perlDreamer> maybe you could run that as the next contest
08:22 <+perlDreamer> well, if he's not going to be pissed if this bug isn't fixed by the next release I'm going to head to bed.
08:22 <@rizen> i'm going to be pissed if you go to bed
08:22 <@rizen> not because you haven't fixed the bug
08:22 <@rizen> just because i like to be pissed
08:23 <@rizen> =)
08:23 <@rizen> good night sir
08:23 <+perlDreamer> Well, in that case, I can make both you and Kathy happy by going to bed!
08:23 <+perlDreamer> g'night
08:23 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""""]
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17:06 <@khenn> morning
17:20 <@snap_away> preaction-m: WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!
17:20  * snap_away throws a bucket of ice water on preaction-m
17:20 <@snap_away> top of tha mornin' to ya khenn
17:22 -!- snap_away is now known as snapcount
17:50 <@khenn> I guess you could call it that =)
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18:06 <@snapcount> MrHairgrease go vote
18:06 <@snapcount> or I will be forced to beg you
18:07 <+MrHairgrease> beg me
18:07 <@snapcount> I hate you
18:07 <@snapcount> =)
18:07 <@snapcount> guess I'm not good at begging
18:07 <+MrHairgrease> i dunno what yankees define as begging
18:07 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:07 <+MrHairgrease> i'll vote
18:07 <+MrHairgrease> on what?
18:08 <@snapcount> the PBWG
18:08 <@snapcount> aren't you subscribed to the shiney mailing lists I made?
18:08 <+MrHairgrease> prolly not
18:08 <@snapcount> oh well that would explain it
18:08 <+MrHairgrease> haven't had any emails
18:09 <+MrHairgrease> i'm subscribed
18:09 <@snapcount> are you subscribed to the members one?
18:10 <@snapcount> or just nominations
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> webgui should have a 'mail me all messages' function
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> both
18:10 <@snapcount> weird
18:10 <@snapcount> I'm getting them
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> you don't understand
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> i just subscribed myself
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> 10 secs ago
18:10 <@snapcount> just now
18:10 <+MrHairgrease> yes
18:10  * snapcount sees a light bulb flickering above his brain
18:11 <@snapcount> sweet
18:11  * MrHairgrease zooms in with google maps on the flickering pixel
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18:11 <@snapcount> ty for subscribing... I need you to help make sure the people that get into PBWG are of the same caliber as you
18:12 <@snapcount> they have to rule
18:13 <+MrHairgrease> heh
18:13 <+MrHairgrease> i'm reading trhe posts i missed right now
18:17 <+MrHairgrease> snapcount: happy? =)
18:17 <@snapcount> that you're reading?
18:17 <+MrHairgrease> i even posted
18:17 <@snapcount> sweet
18:17 <@snapcount> yes, I'm happy now
18:17 <+MrHairgrease> great
18:18 <+MrHairgrease> it's a nice feeling to do good =)
18:18 <@snapcount> indeed
18:26 <+MrHairgrease> ah 7.3.4 is ready?
18:26 <+MrHairgrease> pb went into maintenace mode
18:28 <@preaction-m> i'm helping! i'm helping!
18:47 <@rizen> preaction-m, what's yoru sourceforge.net username?
18:47 <@rizen> also, what's your freshmeat.net username
18:47 <@preaction-m> i don't have a freshmeat yet, but sf is "preaction"
18:48 <@rizen> get fm
18:48 <@preaction-m> fm is also "preaction"
18:49 <@rizen> you now have release rights on sf.net
18:50 <@rizen> and on fm
18:50 <@preaction-m> k
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19:04 <@rizen> I almost had to give MrHairgrease the order to whack maxscience
19:04 <@rizen> good thing he left as quickly as he came
19:04 <@rizen> =)
19:05 <@snapcount> sigh*  I never did understand that guy
19:05 <+MrHairgrease> your orders for me should go through joeri
19:05 <+MrHairgrease> i'm sure he comes up with a fair rice =)
19:05 <@snapcount> sweet... you have red tape too
19:05 <+MrHairgrease> price*
19:05 <+MrHairgrease> red tape?
19:05 <@rizen> for coding i'll contact joeri
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> what's that
19:06 <@rizen> for hits, i'm going directly to you
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> bring it on
19:06 <@snapcount> it's an expression in america for bueracracy
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> bring ot on
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> =)
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> ok
19:06 <@snapcount> jumping through the hoops
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> i understand
19:07 <@rizen> snapcount, it's actually a british expression
19:07 <@rizen> we just stole it
19:07 <@snapcount> typical
19:07 <@snapcount> go America!
19:08 <@rizen> snapcount, what is flaglerbar.com?
19:09 <@rizen> and why am i getting spammed by it
19:09 <@snapcount> eh?
19:09 <@snapcount> you're getting spammed by them
19:09 <+MrHairgrease> do you really wanna know?
19:09 <@snapcount> it's a site Keri runs
19:09 <+MrHairgrease> calc pomade =)
19:09 <@snapcount> and I think we should bill them soon actually
19:09 <@snapcount> it's one of the ones from when I was hired
19:12 <@snapcount> we so need calc back
19:13 <+MrHairgrease> we do
19:13 <+MrHairgrease> i need something to talk to when you guys are asleep =)
19:13 <@snapcount> haha
19:14 <@rizen> i thought that's what your gf was for
19:14 <+MrHairgrease> excuse me?
19:14 <+MrHairgrease> are you insane?
19:14 <+MrHairgrease> you said _talk_ =)
19:15 <@snapcount> yes talking to girls is like playing russian roulette
19:15 <@snapcount> it might be a normal 2 min conversation or the death blow of hours and hours of crap
19:16 <@snapcount> I choose not to play as much as possible
19:16 <@rizen> only if you have the wrong girls
19:16 <@snapcount> perhaps
19:16 <@rizen> sarah never traps me into that bs
19:16 <+MrHairgrease> marijn also never does that to me
19:16 <@snapcount> sarah doesn't count as she has evolved all of the sucky female genes
19:16 <+MrHairgrease> if she does i'll just bully her =)
19:17 <@snapcount> she's an advanced lifeform
19:24  * MrHairgrease is cooking
19:24 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrAFKGrease
19:31 <@preaction-m> rizen: how do we credit Chris Palamara for bugfixes? Canali, Inc? or US DoS?
19:37 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
19:37  * PedersenMJ wavies. Hey there.
19:38 <@rizen> what do you mean credit them?
19:38 <@rizen> you mean that they fixed something?
19:39 <@rizen> or provided a patch?
19:39 <@preaction-m> diagnosed and found where the bug was (the exact line)
19:40 <@snapcount> Hi PedersenMJ
19:40 <@snapcount> welcome
19:41 <@rizen> i assume then you're talking about credit in the change log
19:41 <@snapcount> he is
19:42 <@rizen> generally we only give credit when someone actually fixes a problem
19:42 <@rizen> not just diagnoses it
19:42 <@rizen> but if you want to give them credit, you're more than welcome do
19:42 <@rizen> to
19:42 <@rizen> and when i give credit, i typically ask the person how they want to be credited
19:42 <@rizen> it's usually (thanks to Name, Company)
19:48 <@preaction-m> k, i'll ask chris what he wants
19:48 < PedersenMJ> I just enjoyed hanging out here last night, so came back today.
19:48 < PedersenMJ> Oh, found another free template site, and added that to the wiki.
19:50 <@rizen> i'm glad to hear you're sticking around
19:50 <@rizen> oh yeah, and it would be great if we could compile a giant list of those sites
19:50 <@rizen> i think they'd really help people out
19:50 < PedersenMJ> Well, so far, I've got three.
19:51 <@rizen> that's a great start
19:51 <@rizen> hopefully others will add to that list
19:51 < PedersenMJ> Hopefully. Even if not, I'll make that my project to find and add more periodically.
19:52 <@rizen> great
19:52 <@rizen> then the next step is to a get a bunch of people working to convert those templates into webgui packages
19:52 <@rizen> so people can just start deploying them left and right
19:52 < PedersenMJ> One suggestion for the wiki module? Coming in from the community-wiki site, I don't see a way to modify the front page. That might be there (probably is) when you're an admin. But, if it isn't, then it would be really helpful to have that ability.
19:53 <@rizen> i actually made the administrative decision that users cannot edit the front page
19:53 <@rizen> only admins
19:54 <@rizen> the front page is not actually a wiki page
19:54 < PedersenMJ> Okay, that sounds good. I was just wanting to make sure. I *do* intend to use it once 7.3 comes out, and want to have a different look/feel for that page.
19:54 <@rizen> you can template it
19:55 <@rizen> i mean it is templated
19:55 <@rizen> so you as the admin can do whatever you want with it
19:55 <@rizen> but there needs to be one page in the system that the users cannot change
19:55 <@rizen> that way it can't be defaced
19:55 <@rizen> just in case
19:55 <@rizen> what we probably should do though
19:55 < PedersenMJ> Yep, I do agree with that.
19:56 <@rizen> is create some structural pages under the front page
19:56 <@rizen> and link to them from the front page
19:56 <@rizen> so that people can see "categories" of content
19:56 < PedersenMJ> That would be excellent!
19:57 <@rizen> at some point i'd also like to add tagging to the wiki
19:57 <@rizen> and put a tag cloud on the front page
19:58 <@rizen> anyway, back to support fo rme
19:58 -!- rizen is now known as rizenafk
20:05 <@rizenafk> doug, roy: did either of you upgrade gama yet?
20:05 <@preaction-m> nein
20:16 <@khenn> The more I get into YUI the cooler it becomes
20:16 <@rizenafk> indeed
20:16 <@khenn> the more I get into YUI, the more I hate both IE and Firefox
20:17 -!- rizenafk is now known as rizen
20:17 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
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20:17 <@khenn> each for different reasons
20:17 <+perlDreamer> http://xkcd.com/c208.html
20:18 <@rizen> that's awesome
20:18 <@rizen> i'm going to use it in the talk i'm giving at perl mongers tonight
20:20 <@khenn> oh shit
20:20 <@khenn> That's tonight
20:20 <+perlDreamer> don't worry, you can still see the comic online
20:21 <@khenn> I'm not going to make it tonight JT.  My wife has to register Matthew for school next year... Unless you want to come pick me up =)
20:22 <@rizen> you're always telling me that you come to every meeting
20:22 <@rizen> you can't tell me that anymore
20:22 <@rizen> =)
20:22 <@rizen> doug, are you coming tonight/
20:23 <@khenn> yeah, I'm going to miss my first one
20:23 <@khenn> well my first tech meeting
20:23 <@khenn> who is speaking in Feb?
20:24 <@rizen> i think feb is going to be cancelled
20:24 <@rizen> cuz i can't get a hold of steve peters
20:24 <@rizen> who was supposed to be talking
20:24 <@rizen> also, it's on v-day
20:24 <@rizen> so the turnout won't be good
20:28 <@preaction-m> i don't know, i've just now finished all the release stuff and i still have to fix the bugs in my DoS code and make a new Wobject start-to-finish by end of day
20:29 <@rizen> hehe
20:29 <@rizen> i'll take that as no
20:29 <@preaction-m> unfortunately
20:29 <@rizen> do you want my code generator, even in the state that it's in?
20:29 <@rizen> would that help you with your new asset
20:29 <@preaction-m> surely
20:31 <@rizen> sent
20:56 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-122.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has joined #webgui
20:56 < cap10morgan> What is the best way to get the name of the database (link id 0) you're working with via the API?
20:57 <@rizen> what do you mean the "name" of the database
20:57 <@rizen> the actual name?
20:57 < cap10morgan> yeah
20:57 < cap10morgan> like select from (db_name).(table_name) ...
20:57 < cap10morgan> the "db_name"
20:58 < cap10morgan> i guess i should say schema name in these heady mysql 5 days :)
20:59 <@rizen> ok
20:59 <@rizen> well there's no "good" way
20:59 <@rizen> so i'll just tell you a way that will work
20:59 < cap10morgan> :) sounds good
20:59 <@rizen> my $params = $dblink->get();
20:59 <@rizen> my $dsn = $params->{DSN}
21:00 <@rizen> $dsn =~ m/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/;
21:00 <@rizen> my $dbname = $1;
21:00 < cap10morgan> ok, thanks
21:00 <@rizen> ooh
21:01 <@rizen> that regex needs to be case insensitive
21:01 <@rizen> $dsn =~ m/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/i;
21:01 <@rizen> like that
21:01 <+perlDreamer> *cough*accessors*cough*
21:01 <@rizen> huh?
21:01 <+perlDreamer> objects need accessors
21:02 <+MrAFKGrease> that doesn't work
21:02 <@rizen> his question wasn't, what are the flaws in the DatabaseLink object's design
21:02 <@rizen> his question was how do i get the dbname
21:02 <+MrAFKGrease> dsn can be
21:02 < PedersenMJ> cap10morgan: here's another way that's *almost* identical:
21:02 < PedersenMJ> my $dsn = $dblink->get();
21:02 <+MrAFKGrease> DBI:mysql:dbNmae
21:02 <+MrAFKGrease> DBI:mysql:database=dbName
21:03 <+MrAFKGrease> and a host of other configurations
21:03 < PedersenMJ> $dsn =~ s/dbi:mysql:(\w+)/$1/i;
21:03 <+MrAFKGrease> check the sqlform code in 734
21:03 < PedersenMJ> Erm, change "$dsn" to "$dbname"
21:04 <+MrAFKGrease> check the _databaseLinkHasPrivileges
21:05 <+MrAFKGrease> sub
21:05 <+MrAFKGrease> that get's the dbName from a dsn
21:06 <+MrAFKGrease> http://rafb.net/p/HkmiC093.html
21:06 <+MrAFKGrease> that's the relevant code
21:07 < cap10morgan> MrAFKGrease: that code looks good, thanks
21:07 <+MrAFKGrease> no problem
21:08 -!- MrAFKGrease is now known as MrHairgrease
21:11 <@rizen> that code won't work either
21:11 <@rizen> if there is a hostname in the config
21:11 <@rizen> dbi:mysql:mydb;host=localhost
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> it does work
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> tested that
21:12 <@rizen> i don't see how that's possible
21:12 <@rizen> see the pattern above
21:12 <@rizen> what regex hits that pattern
21:12 <@rizen> i don't see one
21:12 <+MrHairgrease> first it splits on [:;]
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> then it checks if the third entry has an '=' character
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> if it hasn't 
21:13 <@rizen> ah
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> it must be the dbname
21:13 <@rizen> sorry, i didn't see the split
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> ok
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> you get it now =)
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> ?
21:13 <@rizen> indeed
21:13 <+MrHairgrease> I based it on the ODBCdsn parde in DBD::mysql
21:14 <+MrHairgrease> just to get all the undocumented ids for the dbName
21:14 < cap10morgan> seems like a good addition to WebGUI::Utility.pm
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> not utility
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> maybe wg::ql
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> wg::SQL*
21:15 <+MrHairgrease> and WG:databaseLink
21:15 <+perlDreamer> That second one sounds good to me
21:16 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
21:16 <+MrHairgrease> i can also see it hav its use in in wg::sql
21:16 <+MrHairgrease> the method in dblink could then just use that
21:20 <@rizen> it seems like there should be a module to do this already out on cpan
21:21 <+MrHairgrease> which one?
21:21 <+MrHairgrease> i looked through dbi
21:21 <+MrHairgrease> but couldn't find it
21:22 < cap10morgan> MrHairgrease: should that regexp be set case insensitive? in case someone does dbi:mysql:DB=(db_name) or something like that?
21:22 <@rizen> i looked through some too and can't find one
21:22 <@rizen> it just seems like it should be out there
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> if DBI is allowed lowercase
21:22 <+MrHairgrease> it should be case incensitive
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> i seems to me that dbi (or the dbd's) should include such a function
21:24 <+MrHairgrease> yeah I think case insensitve would be better
21:25 <@rizen> i think that porn flavoring would be better
21:25 <+MrHairgrease> porn flavoring?
21:26 <@rizen> everything is better with porn flavoring
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> cap10morgan: DBD:mysql is case sensitive
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> so a dsn with DB= probably won't work
21:26 <+MrHairgrease> still
21:27 <+MrHairgrease> doesn't hurt to do it case insensitive
21:28 < cap10morgan> MrHairgrease: ok
22:35 <@snapcount> woo hoo
22:35 <@snapcount> get to work on some bugs finally
22:35 <@snapcount> sheesh... today has felt very... gosh I don't know
22:36 <@snapcount> *sigh
22:47 <@snapcount> rizen... can you talk some wiki?
22:49 <@rizen> not right now
22:49 <@snapcount> ok... I'll just go with it and we can discuss if any changes need to be made before the next release
23:17 <+perlDreamer> as far as bug fixing goes, I'm working on one of the .wgaccess bugs and the WSClient pagination variables.
23:18 <@rizen> ok roy
23:18 <@rizen> do you still have questions
23:19 <@snapcount> well
23:19 <@snapcount> about deleting pages
23:20 <@snapcount> what should happen if it has been purged?
23:20 <@snapcount> should the restore link just say "sorry it was purged"
23:20 <@snapcount> when they click
23:20 <@rizen> no, there won't be any data left there for you to even generate the restore link
23:20 <@rizen> since those links are based on data coming out of the asset table
23:20 <@rizen> therefore there should be nothing displayed at all
23:21 <@snapcount> ok so recent changes gets data on the fly
23:21 <@snapcount> I see
23:21 <@rizen> have you not looked at it?
23:21 <@snapcount> not at recent changes yet... I just looked at how the delete was done
23:22 <@snapcount> I think it's cool how you were able to do this using the asset/versioning system
23:22 <@snapcount> I don't think I would have thought to do it this way
23:22 <@rizen> why not...that's what it's there for
23:23 <@rizen> why reinvent the wheel when you've already got everything you need
23:23 <@snapcount> I don't know... it makes perfect sense seeing it in front of me
23:23 <@snapcount> just never saw it being used like this
23:23 <@snapcount> I don't know why though
23:23 <+perlDreamer> it's almost exactly like the CS
23:23 <@snapcount> yeah
23:23 <@snapcount> that's the thing... I have never really studied the CS
23:24 <@rizen> when drake did it he was trying to rebuild the versioning system too
23:24 <@snapcount> so when I think user content, I think collateral
23:24 <@snapcount> not asset
23:24 <@rizen> his oriiginal wiki was 6 tables
23:24 <@rizen> rather than the 2 tables i used
23:24 <@snapcount> I really like how this works
23:24 <@snapcount> very clean
23:24 <+perlDreamer> I'm glad you didn't try to shoehorn the Wiki into the CS
23:28 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
23:28 -!- mode/#webgui [+v crythias] by ChanServ
23:29  * crythias tries to send messages on wg-dev including everyone's message as attachment. Also the HTML version of the reply underneath. :)
23:30 <@snapcount> damn it
23:31 <@snapcount> I just caught myself being dumb again
23:31 -!- crythias is now known as noreply
23:31 <+noreply> untitled
23:31 <@snapcount> me: "I need an actionTakenOn column"
23:31 <@snapcount> oh wait
23:31 <@snapcount> that's what revisionDate is
23:31 <@snapcount> oh God help me
23:32  * snapcount kicks snapcount in the temple
23:32 -!- noreply is now known as crythias
23:32 <@rizen> do you need help or are you talking outloud?
23:34  * crythias kicks snapcount in the mosque. 
23:36 <+crythias> um, roy... actionTaken doesn't always correspond to revisionDate.
23:36 <@rizen> you cannot use the assetHistory log
23:37 <@rizen> and you don't need to either
23:41 <@snapcount> ok straighten me out then.  I was going to have the delete sub change the actionTaken to deleted and actionBy to the current user.  Because the asset is going to be put in the trash, that would reflect the time it was deleted.  If the asset is modified again (restored) then the revisionDate would change but at that point it doesn't matter
23:42 <@snapcount> so if actionTaken is deleted, it would print in the recent history the message you wanted using actionTaken, actionTakenBy and revisionDate
23:42 <@rizen> you're doing too much work
23:42 <@rizen> all the data you need is already there
23:42 <@snapcount> figures
23:43 <@rizen> you have the state field
23:43 <@snapcount> oh ok
23:43 <@rizen> which will tell you if the asset is in the trash or not
23:43 <@rizen> if it is
23:43 <@rizen> then the links should have the "restore" link associated with them
23:43 <@rizen> otherwise it shouldn't
23:43 <@rizen> period
23:44 <@rizen> if state is trash or trash-limbo
23:44 <@rizen> or better yet
23:44 <@rizen> youc an handle the clipboard state as well
23:44 <@rizen> by simply doing
23:44 <@rizen> if state ne "published"
23:47 <@snapcount> ok... and you still want the link to be "WikiPage Title Deleted by abc on mm/dd/yyyy (restore)" part to be in the recent history right...
23:48 <@rizen> on the recent history page
23:48 <@rizen> on the front page you shouldn't include all that detail
23:48 <@rizen> on the recent history page we include that kind of detail
23:49 <+perlDreamer> will that require special casing the recentHistory display on the front page?
23:49 <+perlDreamer> right now the same code is used in both places
23:50 <@rizen> how do i even answer that question
23:50 <@rizen> it's almost as if you don't know how webgui works
23:50 < PedersenMJ> Well, I know that *I* don't know how it works :)
23:51 <@rizen> ok
23:51 <@rizen> every template has a set of variables behind it
23:51 <@rizen> if you want to do something the template doesn't allow for
23:51 <@rizen> then you add more variables
23:51 <@rizen> in this case, we don't currently have a variable to say "ifDeleted" do something
23:51 <@rizen> or isInTrash
23:51 <@rizen> or whatever
23:51 <@rizen> so yes, we need to add new template variables
23:52 <@rizen> and yes we need to change the template on the front page
23:52 <@rizen> as well as the template on the recent history page
23:52 < PedersenMJ> Ah, at least conceptually speaking, that makes sense to me.
23:52 <+perlDreamer> you do realize that's a philosophical decision, rather than a technical one?
23:52 < PedersenMJ> I still need to take the time to dig into the code and understand such.
23:53 <@rizen> if isInTrash { title (<link>restore</link>) } else { <link>title</title>} 
23:53 <@rizen> perlDreamer, how do you figure?
23:54 <+perlDreamer> the same result can be achieved either by special casing the code so that it returns things differently or by adding new template variables.
23:54 <+perlDreamer> Unlike last night's discussion,
23:54 <+perlDreamer> I don't think special casing the code is a good idea
23:55 <@rizen> special casing the code limits the templating options
23:55 <@rizen> and is therefore not the right thing to do
23:55 <@rizen> except where there is a performance consideration
23:55 <@rizen> we expose template variables
23:55 <@rizen> so that the user can decide
23:55 <@rizen> what things should look like
23:56 <+perlDreamer> okay
--- Day changed Thu Jan 11 2007
00:02 <@snapcount> sweet
00:02 <@snapcount> I think that answers all the questions then
00:02 <@snapcount> I'm glad I asked you guys first
00:02 <+perlDreamer> We got some press today
00:02 <+perlDreamer> http://lwn.net/images/pdf/opteros-catalog-2007.pdf
00:02 <@snapcount> eeeeeeek
00:02 <@snapcount> pdf == evil
00:02 <+perlDreamer> talk to Opteros about it
00:04 <@snapcount> which of the 262 pages did we get press on?
00:04 <@snapcount> all of them I hope =P
00:04 <+perlDreamer> page 32 (of 47)
00:04 <@snapcount> oh
00:04 <@snapcount> that's 262 projects
00:04 <+perlDreamer> yup
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00:05 <@snapcount> I don't understand their symbols and I'm too lazy to look for the key
00:05 <@snapcount> 3 stars for community seems encouraging
00:06 <@snapcount> especially at version 7.0.7
00:06 <@snapcount> We're a "Easy to use and deploy content management system"
00:06 <+perlDreamer> I was just happy to be listed.
00:07 <@snapcount> the shit is wrong though
00:07 <@snapcount> it says our support is only community
00:07 <@snapcount> that makes me angry b/c the people who read this probably require professional support
00:08 <@snapcount> and we have a sideways trend so I wonder if that means they think we're stable or stagnant
00:08 <+perlDreamer> stable
00:08 <+perlDreamer> stagnant is down
00:08 <@snapcount> what does up mean?
00:08 <@snapcount> or diagonal up
00:08 <+perlDreamer> growing?
00:08 <@snapcount> hmmm
00:08 <+perlDreamer> Here's an Optaros contact (page 45)
00:08 <+perlDreamer> Brian Otis botis@optaros.com
00:08 <+perlDreamer> give him a screenful
00:09 <+perlDreamer> sideways = "Solution/component is not progressing and retains its viability"
00:09 <+perlDreamer> see page 10
00:10 <@snapcount> Dear Brian, thank you for listing us but we respectfully request that you tell everyone we are far superior than anything else in your guide.  In fact, please list nothing but our product.  Yours truly, the MaN
00:10 <@snapcount> poor research
00:10 <@snapcount> we had just released 7 a complete rewrite essentially
00:10 <+perlDreamer> Dear Brian, You may have missed the fact that WebGUI is hosted by the company that makes it, Plain Black.
00:10 <@snapcount> but we're not progressing?
00:10 <@snapcount> this is crap
00:11 <+perlDreamer> "quality and richness even decreases in comparison to the competition"
00:11 <+perlDreamer> so not necessarily progressing, but not keeping up with the Joneses
00:12 <@rizen> Dear Brian, You got all of your facts about WebGUI wrong, but we're just happy to be listed, so thanks. With Love, PB
00:12 <@snapcount> nice
00:12 <@snapcount> I like yours the best so far
00:16 <+perlDreamer> This was also before the website redesign, wasn't it? 7.0.7?
00:17 <@snapcount> before the pb redesign?
00:17 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:17 <@snapcount> I think so
00:17 <@snapcount> crap... must get my learn on
00:17 <@snapcount> later guys
00:17 <+perlDreamer> bye
00:18 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_away
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00:39 -!- Radix__ changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.4) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
01:07 <@khenn> waaaaahooooo
01:08 <@khenn> doug, I got that mouseover thing to work finally
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> later guys
01:16 <+perlDreamer> :w
01:16 <+perlDreamer> later
01:16 <+MrHairgrease> time to go to bed
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01:23 <+perlDreamer> has anyone tested the FilePile since 7.3.4 was released?
01:28 <@rizen> gotta go talk to some perl mongers. later peeps.
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03:20 <@khenn> If anyone would like to test, I just fixed the calendar tip tools for IE so they don't show up behind the event
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03:21 <@khenn> I haven't tested in some of the other browsers (Safari, Opera, etc)
03:21 <@khenn> could use some help there
03:22 <@preaction-m> i'll test safari quick
03:26 <@preaction-m> and works in opera 9.10 too
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03:40 <@khenn> got booted
03:43 <@khenn> anything interesting going on?
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05:00 < PedersenMJ> Herm, dang. Was hoping JT was on. Anybody else know this question? If I make a template for a site (template/style/package), how upwards compatible will it be?
05:00 < PedersenMJ> In other words, if I take a theme I found, and convert it to be used with WebGUI 7.2, how likely is it to work for 7.3?
05:22 <@preaction-m> JT promised backwards compat unti Dec 2009
05:22 <@preaction-m> so until Dec 2009
05:23 < PedersenMJ> Nice. Thank you.
05:24 < PedersenMJ> That means I don't have to worry, which is very good. I'd hate to learn this process (even though it looks pretty easy, actually), and then find the work was wasted :)
05:24 <@preaction-m> i wonder if I should write something that can fix template incompatibilies from version to version
05:25 <@preaction-m> it should be simple, especially for HTML::Template and HTML::Template::Expr templates
05:25 <@preaction-m> Template Toolkit might be a bit more difficult
05:26 <@preaction-m> i've been commissioned to write a better upgrade system, and my eventual goal is to abolish the "upgrade steps" and "backwards compatibility" crap
05:26 <@preaction-m> of course, custom code... I can't go in and edit that, it'd be insane
05:26 <@preaction-m> unless... I use Perl's new syntax tree creator thingy! hmm...
05:27 < PedersenMJ> Heh. I think there are limits to my insanity. Don't think I'd wanna handle a perl parser :)
05:28 < PedersenMJ> Okay, this kinda sucks. Don't know what steps I missed. Working through this tutorial: http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style
05:28 < PedersenMJ> Have made it to "Preview Your Template"
05:28 <@preaction-m> the guy who did a Perl::Critic talk at madmongers explained it
05:29 < PedersenMJ> And now... I can't see the style as an available style in my dropdown list.
05:30 <@preaction-m> damnit, who wrote this documentation?
05:30 <@preaction-m> KRISTIE!
05:31 < PedersenMJ> uh-oh... That doesn't sound good at all...
05:31 <@preaction-m> it's wrong
05:31 <@preaction-m> the last steps before you preview your template
05:32 <@preaction-m> you should choose "namespace" as "style"
05:32 <@preaction-m> also, submit a bug for the documentation if you would
05:32 <@preaction-m> since you can't edit the template's namespace after you create it, you'll have to re-create your template
05:33 < PedersenMJ> Ummm... It just let me?
05:33 <@preaction-m> did it work?
05:33 < PedersenMJ> It seems to have done so, yes.
05:33 <@preaction-m> can you see it under "style" on another asset?
05:33 < PedersenMJ> Yes.
05:33 <@preaction-m> weird
05:33 <@preaction-m> maybe my RFE got implemented
05:37 < PedersenMJ> 7.2.0-beta is where it worked.
05:37 < PedersenMJ> Bug report submitted, too.
05:37 <@preaction-m> did you just go "back" and then do it?
05:37 <@preaction-m> once you've submitted and you can't go back, you have to go to the "Metadata" tab to see a template's namespace, and then you can't change it
05:38 <@preaction-m> feel free to continue submitting bug reports you find in the documentation as well
05:39 < PedersenMJ> Nope, did not do "back". Had to re-navigate through the Root/Import Node/Burned, and then click "edit" on the template.
05:39 <@preaction-m> that is weird... you got a "namespace" field? i'm looking on plainblack.com and there isn't one
05:40 < PedersenMJ> Yep, I had it, and was able to change it, and even use it.
05:43 < PedersenMJ> Hey, for CSS, style sheets, is this another typo? background: #ff0000 url('carotFileUrl(images/red_bg.gif);');
05:43 < PedersenMJ> Since the ^ is usually spelled "carat"
05:43 < PedersenMJ> I thought.
05:44 <@preaction-m> there has to be a way to escape the caret.
05:44 <@preaction-m> but we've got three different spellings now ;-)
05:45 <@preaction-m> it's caret, says dictionary.com
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Dang, forgot that.
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Used to know that. Must have been thinking diamonds, or something.
05:47 < PedersenMJ> Wow... I would say she sucks at Docs, but I'm not much better.
05:48 <@preaction-m> i think it's just the medium, she seems to be good at pagemaker
05:48 < PedersenMJ> So, how do I "upload to your style template's directory, making sure to give it the URL you specified in the head of the document."
05:48 <@preaction-m> like the print stuff she's done is excellent
05:48 <@preaction-m> good god, what does that MEAN?
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Well, I'm working on the CSS file for my theme.
05:49 <@preaction-m> and you're making a snippet for it?
05:49 < PedersenMJ> I'm supposed to upload it to the style's folder, I think, but... Nope, I had the actual file ready to go, instead of using the snippet.
05:50 < Radix-wrk> So upload it as a file/file pile to the same directory as your style
05:50 <@preaction-m> oh yeah, just make a File asset in the folder, it will ask you to upload and specify the URL
05:50 <+crythias> heyall
05:50 <@preaction-m> (may want to append "clarify this line '' to this ''" to your bug report
05:50 < Radix-wrk> the file/filepile is smart - it recognises .css files, converts them to snippets and sets the right mime type
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Aha... Yeah, it tried to put the file under "burned/burned.css" instead of "/burned.css"
05:51 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
05:51 <@preaction-m> did you explicitly give it the correct URL?
05:51 < PedersenMJ> I have now, I thought, but am unable to retrieve it.
05:52 < Radix-wrk> You shouldn't use explicit paths in your style if you want to package it later though
05:52 < PedersenMJ> Which goes explicitly *against* the docs on that page.
05:52 < Radix-wrk> Wouldn't surprise me :)
05:54 <@preaction-m> i'd say get a discussion going. perhaps we need to start adding Threads to our documentation, like a lot of FOSS software packages do, so users can post additional information about the docs
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Dammit. I have *no* idea how I'm supposed to find this css file.
05:54 <@preaction-m> like annocpan, or mysql's docs
05:54 <@preaction-m> it should be in the folder you uploaded it into
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Root/Import Node/Burned
05:54 <@preaction-m> though notice at the very bottom of the doc, there's a lesson on creating a snippet to hold your CSS
05:59 < PedersenMJ> Okay, did it as a snippet, and still get 404 on that url.
06:00 <@preaction-m> check permissions? commit version tag?
06:02 < PedersenMJ> So, here's where I am, what I've done. Hopefully, someone can tell me how I've been the idiot :)
06:02 < PedersenMJ> I've turned an index.html page into a template page (adding vars, etc, as needed).
06:03 < PedersenMJ> I've made a new folder, named "Burned", under Root->Import Node
06:03 < PedersenMJ> (The name of the theme is, obviously, Burned)
06:03 < PedersenMJ> Under that folder, I've made another folder called "images", which is where I've stashed the relevant images for the theme (all four of them)
06:04 < PedersenMJ> In the "Burned" folder, I've placed the templatized index.html, and marked it as a style.
06:04 < PedersenMJ> I've created a snippet, given it the url of "burned.css".
06:05 < PedersenMJ> Now, the style works *as a style*. But I can't (outside of WebGUI Admin Console) see burned.css
06:05 < PedersenMJ> Nor can I see any of my images (just tried) outside of webgui.
06:06 <@preaction-m> did you commit your version tag? did you check the permissions on this stuff?
06:07 < PedersenMJ> Haven't checked the commit version tag. BTW, I know that, to some degree, I sound like I know what I'm doing. I don't. I've never used WebGUI for anything other than "Hey, that's a pretty cool looking thing."
06:07 <@preaction-m> commit your version tag and see if that works
06:09 < PedersenMJ> Okay, improvement. images showed up. Now double-checking the burned.css snippet, to make sure I did what I was supposed to.
06:09 <@preaction-m> anybody else getting an iPhone? i think i might just get a Cingular 8525 (HTC TyTN) right now, rather than wait 6 months and pay $600 for something that I'm not sure will tether to my laptop for internet access
06:11 < PedersenMJ> Sweet! Now, I've got issues with my template, but *that's* fine. Now I'm down to working out the bugs in the template itself, rather than trying to figure out why I can't even find URLs that should be there :)
06:11 <@preaction-m> boy those crickets just got loud
06:12 < Radix-wrk> iPhone looks nice in that they've done away with the stylus - and it's going to push the whole windows mobile development along heaps I'm hoping
06:12 < Radix-wrk> I hope to see heaps of iPhone interface clones for WM5 in the coming months
06:12 <@preaction-m> indeed, well, if it's a true OSX and not a "version" like windows CE is a "version" of Windows
06:12 < PedersenMJ> As for iPhone, I rather doubt I'll get it. I might, finally, get a mac by the end of the year, but iPhone doesn't quite look like what I want.
06:12 < Radix-wrk> pfft.. sif it's a full OSX
06:13 <@preaction-m> if it has the full suite of libraries, and can compile some simple NES emulators, i'm totally down
06:13 < Radix-wrk> I have an O2 Atom atm myself
06:14 < Radix-wrk> Similar size and shape to the iphone, though admittedly a bit fatter (about 7mm)
06:14 <@preaction-m> haven't heard of that one, googling
06:15 <@preaction-m> does it tether to bluetooth computers and provide a modem?
06:15 < Radix-wrk> of course
06:15 < Radix-wrk> wifi as well
06:15 <@preaction-m> FM radio tuner, nice
06:15 < Radix-wrk> the exec has a 520Mhz processor too
06:16 <@preaction-m> seriously?
06:16 < Radix-wrk> interesting that there are no technical specs for the iPhone too - did you notice that
06:16 <@preaction-m> the TyTN only gets 400MHz
06:16 < Radix-wrk> they do not say what processor is running in it, or how much memory (just 4GB/8GB storage)
06:16 <@preaction-m> yeah... another reason why i don't want to wait really
06:17 < Radix-wrk> the o2 atom is only triband GSM tho
06:17 < Radix-wrk> you prolly want quad band in the US
06:17 <@preaction-m> really? i don't understand those things
06:17 < Radix-wrk> In Australia though, we only really use GSM, so fine for us
06:18 <@preaction-m> does o2 atom have removable storage? micro-sd?
06:18 < Radix-wrk> you guys use different frequencies to us
06:18 < Radix-wrk> yeah.. mini-sd, has a nice little slot at the top
06:18 <@preaction-m> no keyboard at all?
06:18 < Radix-wrk> nup
06:19 <@preaction-m> so an on-screen display
06:19 < Radix-wrk> stylus/touch screen for keypad yeah
06:19 <@preaction-m> how will i type efficiently with that? :'( no deal
06:19 <@preaction-m> iphone also, no keyboard, but the other features and awesomeness outweighs my need to have a keyboard so i can IRC
06:20 <@preaction-m> but i suppose if i'm tethering, why would i need a keyboard?
06:20 < Radix-wrk> I mostly use mine for ebooks and phone calls myself
06:20 < Radix-wrk> I text, but not enough that it's a big burden
06:20 < Radix-wrk> I have to use the stylus for the texting
06:21 <@preaction-m> my main goal is complete mobility. i want to be able to be half-way across the country in the middle of nowhere. if i have digital cell reception, i can work ;)
06:21 <@preaction-m> i know it's a lofty, unattainable goal, but it's fun to try
06:21 < Radix-wrk> i love the ability to read ebooks wherever I go myself - while standing in a queue, while on the train/bus, any moment where I have free time and a free hand to hold the phone
06:22 < Radix-wrk> I have a mini-sd full of ebooks and just read whenever I like
06:22 <@preaction-m> and, heh, apparently o2 doesn't have sales outside the US
06:22 <@preaction-m> i'd have to import and beg someone to be my carrier
06:22 < Radix-wrk> imate probably do a clone
06:23 < Radix-wrk> it's not a HTC phone tho.. unlike almost every other one out there
06:23 < Radix-wrk> it's made by another taiwanese manufacturer - Quanta
06:24 < Radix-wrk> the tytn looks good if you like the slideout keyboard tho
06:24 <@preaction-m> i do indeed
06:25 <@preaction-m> also the i-mate JamIn has a 200mhz processor, not enough for my plans for mobile software development (if I can't get an NES emulator durnit i'll make one)
06:25 < Radix-wrk> it has hsdpa too, which the iPhone never will :)
06:25 < Radix-wrk> yeah, I looked at the jamin when I got my atom
06:25 <@preaction-m> but the jamin has the conference call thingy
06:26 < Radix-wrk> nice, but everyone was complaining about the processor speed not being enough for skype, etc
06:26 <@preaction-m> ooh, i need skype for work
06:26 <@preaction-m> crap
06:26 < Radix-wrk> there is a low processor version of skype now tho
06:27 <@preaction-m> worst thing about Cingular, they neutered the tytn and removed the user-facing camera (so no video phoning)
06:27 < Radix-wrk> Umm.. would you ever actually use it anyway?
06:27 <@preaction-m> webcam-like feature, i assume
06:28 <@preaction-m> but i suppose the front-facing one would work just fine for that
06:28  * PedersenMJ interrupts: http://www.nochara.org/testpage
06:28 <@preaction-m> with a bluetooth headset
06:28 < PedersenMJ> I've still got to fix a bunch of things in there, such as how the left column gets used, and the navigation menus, but it's a start.
06:28 <@preaction-m> looks nice, but it looks like it's missing images (or it just doen'st like me)
06:28 < Radix-wrk> yeah, no images here either
06:28 <@preaction-m> otherwise it looks great actually
06:29 < PedersenMJ> And I've gotta thank you two for helping it get this far. Even with those docs, I wouldn't have gotten this far. Ah, forgot them, thank you!
06:29  * preaction-m hates the current default style with a passion
06:29 < PedersenMJ> I see why they're missing. That carotFileUrl bit in the docs is (also) wrong.
06:29 <@preaction-m> i want to propose having the demo sites randomly pick one of a dozen or so styles when a demo is created
06:29 <@preaction-m> ew ew ew
06:30 < Radix-wrk> that'd be cool
06:30 <@preaction-m> good thing you decided to use them
06:30 < PedersenMJ> the docs?
06:30 <@preaction-m> yes
06:30 < PedersenMJ> Why, so I can report all the errors? :)
06:30 <@preaction-m> the demo thing might be something i just Implement and show off, it seems that you get better results from JT if you show him something that works, and not just an idea
06:31 < Radix-wrk> Did you know you can use "richEditorsUseAssetUrls" : "1" and "enableStreamingUploads" : "1", to avoid the whole fileurl macro completely?
06:31 <@preaction-m> PedersenMJ: exactly
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Radix-wrk: Nope, sure didn't.
06:31 < Radix-wrk> you can then use the webgui url's everywhere and they'll get auto-converted
06:31 <@preaction-m> hell, i didn't :p
06:31 < PedersenMJ> As for reporting all of the problems, I'm definitely going to have a list. Hell, I'm going to have re-read this whole convo just to do so.
06:32 < Radix-wrk> heh
06:32 <@preaction-m> good idea, if we can start re-building a decent documentation base for WebGUI, we might get back the community we lost
06:32 <@preaction-m> apparently this place (and others) used to be popular
06:33 < Radix-wrk> interesting to see the irc logs actually
06:33 < Radix-wrk> When I started idling on here this place was down to 2-3 ppl
06:33 < Radix-wrk> less sometimes
06:34 <@preaction-m> was that about last oct? i think that's when i started hanging out
06:34 <@preaction-m> first as Hawkaloogie, then with a more PC nethandle
06:34 < Radix-wrk> I started earlier in the year - probably 4-5 months before then I think
06:35 < Radix-wrk> was just me, xdanger and crythias mostly
06:35 <@preaction-m> whatever happened to that guy doing the myspace-like thing with webgui?
06:36 < Radix-wrk> mashy?
06:36 < PedersenMJ> For some reason, that handle makes me think of the movie "Finding Nemo". Mt Wannahawkaloogie.
06:36 <@preaction-m> i don't even remember now
06:38 < Radix-wrk> http://juga.org/gadgets btw ;)
06:38 < PedersenMJ> Hey, here's another fun one: If I'm working on a CSS snippet, how should I specify a background image? (samples coming)
06:38 < Radix-wrk> you can use the fileurl method
06:38 <@preaction-m> probably a ^FileUrl();
06:38 < PedersenMJ> background: #000000 url(^FileUrl(images/a1.jpg);) top left 
06:39 < PedersenMJ> background: #000000 url('carotFileUrl(images/a2.jpg);') top left 
06:39 < Radix-wrk> or if you set the above parameters I said, you can use put in images/a1.jpg
06:39 < PedersenMJ> I've already uploaded the files, though.
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Wait, I think I misunderstood how to do it... Where do I set those parameters?
06:41 <@preaction-m> in the configuration file
06:41 < Radix-wrk> in your webgui config file
06:41 <@preaction-m> it will even Just Work when you export it
06:41 <@preaction-m> (right?)
06:41 < Radix-wrk> you'll need to restart webgui when you've done it
06:41 < Radix-wrk> You mean package it?
06:41 <@preaction-m> yeah
06:42 < Radix-wrk> not sure actually.. not tried it
06:42 <@preaction-m> wait, you have a Nintento Power Glove modded for your PC?
06:42 < Radix-wrk> yep
06:42 <@preaction-m> how the heck did that happen?
06:42 <@preaction-m> did you do it?
06:42 < Radix-wrk> that was part of my honours thesis project actually
06:42 < Radix-wrk> yeah, was pretty easy to do, just followed instructions
06:42 <@preaction-m> good lord
06:43 <@preaction-m> there's something like 20 buttons on that thing, no?
06:43 < Radix-wrk> I experimented with new 3d interface techniques for virtual worlds using the powerglove as my thesis
06:43 < Radix-wrk> yeah, it has a full d-pad and the like on it
06:43 <@preaction-m> and with 7 pins, 1 ground and 1 input leaving 5, there's only a possibility of .. nevermind, far more than 20 buttons
06:44 < Radix-wrk> ain't used that in years tho.. did that about 12 years ago
06:44 <@preaction-m> 5! = 120
06:44 < Radix-wrk> it's in a plastic bag collecting dust these days :)
06:44 <@preaction-m> crap i'm young
06:45 <@preaction-m> you could totally use that thing as some sort of space-age web browsing device
06:45 <@preaction-m> a la Minority Report
06:45 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
06:46 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by ChanServ
06:46 <@preaction-m> AH! Run!
06:46 < Radix-wrk> better to simply get a Nintendo Wii-mote these days tho :)
06:47 < PedersenMJ> Ah, he has risen ;)
06:47 <@preaction-m> ooh even better, it's already bluetooth
06:47 <@rizen> are you running from me doug?
06:47 <@preaction-m> and iirc there's already drivers for OSX and others
06:47 <@preaction-m> uh.... no?
06:47 < Radix-wrk> the powerglove used ink switches - only 2 bits of info per finger - so you could only really get open or closed reliably I found
06:48 <@preaction-m> that's still pretty durned cool
06:48 <@preaction-m> but add some sort of switches at the base of the finger for up/down/left/right movements, and maybe an accelerometer for the whole hand, and you'd be golden
06:48 < Radix-wrk> yeah, was great fun to turn my playing around with it into my honours thesis :)
06:49 < Radix-wrk> it does give 3d motion as well
06:49 < Radix-wrk> it had sensor bar that went on your tv much like the wiimotes do today
06:49 <@preaction-m> in/out, up/down, left/right?
06:49 < Radix-wrk> so it could give 3d positioning in space
06:50 <@preaction-m> now I want to play with one. did you just hook it up to a parallel port and start probing?
06:50 < Radix-wrk> nah.. found instructions on what to wire up where - got power for it from the game port (5v), and parallel for everything else
06:51 < Radix-wrk> there was already drivers written for the virtual construction set - a virtual reality toolkit
06:51 < Radix-wrk> I grabbed the c code for that and simply extended it to add my own custom UI stuff
06:51 < PedersenMJ> Hey, rizen? Tricky question for ya: I'm working on one of those themes right now, and having an issue with some background images. I've set the CSS up as a snippet, and the images referenced in it aren't being resolved. Tried setting some extra options that Radix gave me for rich editors, but the CSS snippets don't use rich editors. Anyway, I need to know how to put a ^FileUrl() macro into the CSS snippet, and can't find it (yet).
06:52 <@preaction-m> you just edit the snippet and type ^FileUrl(url/to/the/file.jpg);
06:53 < Radix-wrk> virtual reality was the field I was hoping to get into after graduating.. got into CAD/CAM instead
06:53 < PedersenMJ> Tried that. Source: "background: #000000 url(^FileUrl(images/a1.jpg);) top left no-repeat;" Output: "background: #000000 url('carotFileUrl(images/a2.jpg);') top left no-repeat;"
06:54 <@rizen> make sure that the FileUrl macro is turned on in your webgui config
06:54 <@rizen> cuz what doug said is absolutely correct
06:55 <@preaction-m> but why would it turn into 'carotFileUrl'? is the snippet not being processed as a template perhaps?
06:55 <@preaction-m> a note: better to ask questions to the entire channel, saying someone's name usually causes their IRC client to beep annoyingly
06:55 < PedersenMJ> Ah, sorry. Thank you. Will do so.
06:56 <@rizen> the template thing has nothing to do with it
06:56 <@rizen> cuz macros aren't templates
06:56 <@rizen> that is weird
06:56 <@rizen> that it's turning into the word carrot
06:57 < PedersenMJ> I just turned on "process as template" to make sure. And just re-checked config file. FileUrl *is* enabled.
06:57 < PedersenMJ> It's worth noting that this is 7.2.0.
06:58 < PedersenMJ> Actually, not quite the word carrot (the vegetable), but rather the word carot (mispelling of caret, or one of the other variants of the same).
06:58 <@rizen> ok sorry
06:58 <@rizen> my faout
06:58 <@rizen> fault
06:58 <@rizen> but still
06:58 <@rizen> i have no idea what would cause that
06:59 <@rizen> regardless, you should at least be running on the latest 7.2.x release
06:59 < PedersenMJ> "macros" : { (among others), "FileUrl" : "FileUrl", (and many others) }
06:59 <@rizen> but i don't think that has anything to do with this problem
06:59 <@rizen> it's just a statement
06:59 < PedersenMJ> It wasn't trying to point out error on your part, it was just in case it was somehow significant.
07:00 < PedersenMJ> As for the upgrade, I'm doing it once 7.3 is marked as stable. Definitely doing it then.
07:00 <@preaction-m> woohoo, frank's fixed the calendar's tooltip bugs, and it works on every browser i've tested (IE7, FF2, Opera, Safari, Konqueror). yay Yui!
07:01 <@rizen> the word "carot" does not exist in the source code of webgui
07:01 <@rizen> so something else is doing that
07:02 <@rizen> could you paste the snippet into that snippet site
07:02 <@rizen> and put the url here
07:02 <@preaction-m> PedersenMJ: is that test URL still valid?
07:02 <@rizen> what's it called
07:02 <@rizen> paste?
07:02 < PedersenMJ> Now *that* is weird. http://www.nochara.org/testpage
07:02 < PedersenMJ> What's weird: I was following the docs from http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style
07:03 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/paste/
07:03 <@rizen> copy the contents of the snippet into that
07:03 <@rizen> and post the url
07:04 < PedersenMJ> Now, in *that* page, "carot" does appear. I had followed the steps to upload the css, and named it "burned.css". The snippet is now being resolved as "burned2.css", but doesn't (as far as I recall) have the word "carot" in it.
07:04 < PedersenMJ> Will c/p now, just a sec.
07:04 <@preaction-m> did you commit your version tag? ;)
07:05 < PedersenMJ> http://rafb.net/p/88qqi371.html
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Yes, test url is still valid. And I've been committing version tags ever since I found out I was an idiot for not doing so :)
07:06 <@preaction-m> ok, your snippet is not what's being shown at burned2.css
07:06 <@preaction-m> you might want to check if there's a running workflow
07:06 < PedersenMJ> What? Weirdness... gimme a minute.
07:06 <@preaction-m> Admin Console > Workflow > Show Running Workflows (in the right column)
07:06 <@preaction-m> if you notice the bottom stuff at burned2.css is different from what you pasted
07:06 <@rizen> i was going to say
07:07 <@rizen> there are a couple of problems here
07:07 <@preaction-m> (it doesn't have .loginBox class, for example)
07:07 <@rizen> number 1: what he said
07:07 <@rizen> 2: what you pasted doesn't have ' ' around the macro
07:07 <@rizen> but if you look at http://www.nochara.org/burned2.css
07:07 <@rizen> it does have ' '
07:07 <@rizen> so they aren't the same content
07:08 <@rizen> 3: your <link> tag in your content
07:08 <@rizen> doesn't specify a fully qualified url
07:08 <@rizen> which is going to cause problems after the home page
07:08 <@rizen> if you ever do get this working
07:11 < PedersenMJ> Dang it. I forgot to restart spectre when I restarted webgui when I added those params for the rich editor.
07:14 < PedersenMJ> Okay, that's better. Now I've just got bad URLs, but that's not as big a deal.
07:14 < PedersenMJ> And then the remaining issues you've already laid out, rizen.
07:16 < PedersenMJ> JT == rizen, yes? If so, do you mind if I call you JT?
07:17 <@rizen> don't care
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. BTW, my handle is pretty close to real name, if you wish to use it. Michael Pedersen (or Mike, or Ped, or Pedersen, or pick something else, just not my nose).
07:17 <@rizen> hey you
07:18 <@rizen> does that work?
07:18 <@preaction-m> yes?
07:18 < PedersenMJ> Actually, it's now pretty close. Once I restarted spectre, burned2.css was updated. Now, I'm getting bad URLs in the CSS, but that's something for me to try and dig into.
07:19 < PedersenMJ> background: #000000 url('/uploads/Sb/Gl/SbGlwgPoH_ufB065IfYtDQ/a1.jpg') top left no-repeat;
07:19 <@rizen> why is that a bad url?
07:19 < PedersenMJ> As opposed to "url('/images/a1.jpg')"
07:19 <@rizen> the first url is the real url of the file
07:19 < PedersenMJ> That url gives me a 404, though.
07:19 <@rizen> wherase /images/a1.jpg is the asset url
07:20 <@rizen> if you just want to use /images/a1.jpg
07:20 <@rizen> then just type that in there
07:20 <@rizen> and skip the macro part of it
07:20 <@rizen> no ^FileUrl();
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Wouldn't it be better for me to use the macro, or the AssetProxy() macro?
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Especially if I'm going to be packaging it?
07:21 <@rizen> the asset proxy macro definitely not
07:22 <@rizen> cuz that will give you <img src="/uploads/Sb/Gl/SbGlwgPoH_ufB065IfYtDQ/a1.jpg" alt="xxx" />
07:22 <@rizen> which obviously won't work in the style sheet
07:22 < PedersenMJ> True, didn't think of that.
07:22 <@rizen> here's the real difference between ^FileUrl(); and just using the raw asset url
07:23 <@rizen> it's where you want your processing done
07:23 <@rizen> using FileUrl puts the real url of the file into your html code
07:23 <@rizen> that way, when the page requests the file
07:23 <@rizen> the web server can just serve up the image
07:23 <@rizen> without hitting the database
07:23 <@rizen> also...the html will be cached
07:23 <@rizen> so if the page is requested again
07:24 <@rizen> they'll never hit the db at all
07:24 <@rizen> not for the page
07:24 <@rizen> or the image
07:24 <@rizen> second
07:24 <@rizen> if you use the asset url
07:24 <@rizen> then there's no processing done while creating the html page
07:24 <@rizen> but there is processing done when the image is requested
07:24 <@rizen> because it's got to look up thte asset url in the database
07:24 <@rizen> instanciate the image asset
07:25 <@rizen> and then return the image
07:25 <@rizen> so it does a lot more work
07:25 <@rizen> the advantage of the first route is better performance (using FileUrl)
07:25 <@rizen> the advantage of the second rount (not using FileUrl) is vanity
07:25 <@rizen> because the urls in the code look prettier
07:26 <@rizen> but who the hell looks at the code
07:26 <@rizen> i always choose performance
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Screw it, I'll go with the ugly urls. I'm not particularly picky about that :)
07:36 <@rizen> i know what we should do
07:36 <@rizen> let's email the dev mailing list
07:36 <@rizen> and suggest we do something that jt has already said we can't do
07:36 <@rizen> yeah, that would be fun
07:38 < PedersenMJ> Now, now, maybe he's just an idiot like me, and needs a sound beating with a clue-by-four, eh?
07:39 <@rizen> i'm a bad person to be running a community
07:39 <@rizen> i just have no patience
07:39 <@rizen> we just need to pour my knowledge into someone with infinite patience
07:39 <@rizen> and we'd have the ultimate webgui community leader
07:41 < PedersenMJ> Problem: Since there is no human with infinite patience, we'd sooner or later get a crabby old man saying "You kids get off my damn lawn!", which would leave us back where we started ;)
07:42 <@rizen> ok then
07:43 < PedersenMJ> Something tells me I just earned "stupidest idea of 2007" by teasing the leader. I'll just have to hope not.
07:44 <@preaction-m> the year is young, and i have plenty of stupid ideas to think of yet
07:44 <@rizen> nah teasing me does nothing
07:45 < PedersenMJ> Good. Thick skin is good around me.
07:50 < PedersenMJ> Okay, it's gettingthere. For some reason, the snippet isn't updating again (and I've been reloading spectre to make sure it's running). However, the graphics are now there.
07:51 < PedersenMJ> As is the login (but, since it's white on light background, it's *very* difficult to see).
07:51 <@rizen> make sure you set the cache timeout to 0
07:51 <@rizen> while you're working on it
07:51 <@rizen> why am i supporting you...i shouldn't be doing hta
07:52 <@rizen> tthat
07:52 < PedersenMJ> I never thought of that. Thank you. Just restarted the web server.
07:52 < PedersenMJ> Because I'm a nice guy?
07:52 <@rizen> lots of people are nice guys
07:52 <@rizen> but if i support all of them
07:52 <@rizen> i'm out of business
07:52 <@rizen> and no more webgui
07:53 <@preaction-m> i was under the impression that this package would be a commmunity contribution
07:53 < PedersenMJ> Well, even though I'm not doing support incidents right now, I *am* looking to learn something to help grow the community (namely, how to make these themes work, and get packaged)
07:53 <@preaction-m> he says hopefully
07:54 < PedersenMJ> Not just this theme, but the other two I found last night. If it becomes easy enough for me, I'll try and do some others while I'm at it.
07:54 <@rizen> ok fair enough
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07:55 <@rizen> howdy
07:58 < PedersenMJ> Yeeha! http://www.nochara.org/testpage
07:58 < PedersenMJ> Now, I just have to figure out what I should put in that column on the left, plug in one of the navigation systems already built in, and then learn how to package this beast up.
08:00 < PedersenMJ> Then, feedback, so I find out what I got wrong, and then learn how to package better. Hoepfully, another week, and I'll have at least one well done theme contributed, and can work on two others.
08:00 < Radix-wrk> if you're doing a style template, then ideally it shouldn't dictate the columns.  they should be done using the page layout template
08:00 < PedersenMJ> Very good point. Okay, so I need to learn how to incorporate *that* correctly. That, though, will be for tomorrow night, I think.
08:00 < Radix-wrk> usually the style template simply has the logo, css, any js and perhaps a common navigation (if it is designed for the entire site)
08:01 < PedersenMJ> Definitely going to get some sort of navigation into the package for it. Try to make it optional though, so that people can use what they like.
08:02 < Radix-wrk> Well.. as long as you have the <tmpl_var body.content> variable in your style then it should work
08:02 < PedersenMJ> Really? Cool. Then I should probably just delete that second div, so it just gets hidden entirely.
08:02 < Radix-wrk> and you'll probably find the default page layouts will work fine with your new style if you did it right
08:03 < Radix-wrk> you can always tweak them later if you need to
08:03 < Radix-wrk> make sure 
08:03 < Radix-wrk> <tmpl_var head.tags> is in the head section too btw
08:03 < PedersenMJ> It seems to be correct. The hard part was getting colors on the login box. Now that I know about that, though, it seems okay. More work to do, but a decent enough start.
08:04 < PedersenMJ> Yep, I did get that in there. Which is another update to the docs, as the page text makes it look like "<tmpl_var head tags>" is the correct thing to do.
08:05 < Radix-wrk> You'll be able to write up a nice wiki article  on how to convert one of those styles to a webgui style soon I'm sure.
08:06 < PedersenMJ> Most likely. And believe me, I will. It's kinda nice to be able to give some back to those thathelp.
08:07 < Radix-wrk> :)
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08:20 < PedersenMJ> There. Removed that secondaryContent section. That means tomorrow night will be getting the menus working, and updating my bug report about the documentation. After that, packaging either over the weekend or the beginning of next weekend.
08:22 < PedersenMJ> erm, beginning of next week.
08:24 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, g'night all. Will chat more tomorrow. And, JT, if you do feel I've cheated you since you were helping me tonight, let me know. I'll pay for the support.
08:25 <@rizen> don't worry about it
08:25 <@rizen> just use your knowledge for good
08:25 <@rizen> not evil
08:26 < PedersenMJ> I will do so. And see if I can't use it to help build the community.
08:26 < PedersenMJ> G'night. Will chat manana.
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09:22 < Radix-wrk> I just added my first Wiki page - http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/how-to-make-a-google-sitemap-of-your-webgui-site
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12:57 < iPhoneGuy> hey
12:59 < iPhoneGuy> someone could please add total number of votes to the pie chart Poll? Results without total votes number is pretty pointless...
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17:13 -!- pjesi [i=pjesi@klefi01.litlahraun.is] has joined #webgui
17:13 < pjesi> hi guys
17:26 -!- iPhoneGuy [n=iPhoneGu@85-18-14-23.fastres.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:27 < pjesi> DBD::mysql::st execute failed: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''50'' at line 2 at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/SQL/ResultSet.pm line 135.
17:27 < pjesi> error in the Wiki 
17:28 < pjesi> version 7.3.3
17:31 < pjesi> sorry didnt spot the 7.3.4 release
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18:29 <+perlDreamer> is plainblack okay?  We didn't get a smoke-test run last night.
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19:00 <+perlDreamer> anyone up for a bug discussion?
19:31 <@khenn> bugs?
19:36 <+perlDreamer> webgui has a few
19:36 <+perlDreamer> just a few
19:37 <+perlDreamer> take for example this one:
19:37 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/too-many-directories-in-rss-cache#7lF-_7zQS-taPqzNnEN8CQ
19:37 <+perlDreamer> Spectre will clean up large files, but if you fill the cache with lots of small files you can blow the inode limits on the cache directory
19:39 <+perlDreamer> I think it would be good to add a file limit to the workflow activity called CleanFileCache
19:44 <+perlDreamer> but I don't know if that would interfere with large sites that may generate lots of cache files.
19:44 <+perlDreamer> I guess if you deleted cache files beyond a certain age that might be safe
19:58 <+perlDreamer> eh
19:59 <+perlDreamer> it would be easier to find out why the RSS pre-fetcher is leaking directories
19:59 <+perlDreamer> if it didn't, then the problem wouldn't exist
20:29 <@khenn> The asset manager really needs to have pagination
20:30 <+perlDreamer> you working on a big site?
20:30 <@khenn> I just added 1800 articles to a collaboration system and neither IE or Firefox will bring up the page with all the events
20:31 <+perlDreamer> I think there's even an RFE for that
20:31 <@khenn> ie:  the asset manager does not scale
20:32 <+perlDreamer> nope, I was thinking of manage committed versions
20:32 <+perlDreamer> maybe we can do it in 7.4
20:33 <+perlDreamer> btw, I think someone probably needs to give spectre a swift kick
20:33 <+perlDreamer> the smoke tests weren't run yesterday
20:33 <+perlDreamer> on plainblack.com
20:33 < ckotil> yeah my commited version list is a mile long
20:34 < ckotil> itd be nice to group them in a sensible way
20:34 <+perlDreamer> by time?
20:34 < ckotil> month works for me
20:34 <+perlDreamer> we'd have to write a new pagination method for that
20:35 <@khenn> so spectre doesn't really like the 1800+ requests I sent it
20:35 <@khenn> it's taking some time to run through everything
20:35 <@khenn> 2hrs and counting
20:47 <+perlDreamer> you redefine stress testing
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21:15 <+perlDreamer> well, I think I found where the RSS cache is leaking
21:15 <@rizen> the rss cache is leaking?
21:16 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/too-many-directories-in-rss-cache#7lF-_7zQS-taPqzNnEN8CQ
21:17 <@rizen> perhaps we shouldn't use the fs cache for rss
21:17 <+perlDreamer> I'm guessing that it is making lots of small files and then hitting inode limits before hitting size limits
21:18  * crythias perks up? RSS? inode?
21:18 <+perlDreamer> it's using whatever the user tells it to
21:18 <+perlDreamer> File or db or memcache
21:18 <@rizen> i'm saying maybe we should just cache it directly into the SyndicatedContent table
21:20 <+perlDreamer> would that allow the cache to be shared across multiple Assets?
21:20 < ckotil> anyone know what could be causing this error when i upload a gif via file pile asset?
21:20 < ckotil> /usr/sbin/httpd: symbol lookup error: /usr/local/lib/ImageMagick-6.2.8/modules-Q16/coders/gif.so: undefined symbol: ConstantString
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21:23 < iPhoneGuy> hi
21:23 < ckotil> uploads go through. but after the file pile im left at a blank white screen. luckily this is on my dev box and not the production one.
21:23 <@rizen> perlDreamer: no
21:23 <@rizen> perlDreamer: but that's ok
21:24 < iPhoneGuy> what do you think about adding the total number of votes to the pie chart Poll?
21:24 <+perlDreamer> iPhoneGuy: that would make a good RFE
21:24 < iPhoneGuy> without it a Poll is pretty pointless
21:24 <@rizen> that's already an rfe
21:24 < iPhoneGuy> there is already?
21:24 <@rizen> yes..someone submitted it a while ago
21:24 <@rizen> i don't know where it is in the list though
21:24 <@rizen> probably in the middle some place
21:25 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/pie-chart-statistics#eURNuJULPELMeyNGVbhaEQ
21:25 <@rizen> are you a cisco iphone or an apple iphone?
21:25 < iPhoneGuy> well RFEs can be well forgotten... Don't you think it's a simple yet pretty urgent thing to add?
21:25 <+crythias> CSS Grid Builder... http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/grids/
21:25 < iPhoneGuy> heh Apple of course... Cisco got just the name... Their product sucks
21:25 <@rizen> it's neither simple or urgent
21:26 <+perlDreamer> the RFE has 0 karma
21:26 < iPhoneGuy> so you think Poll results without total number of votes make sense? I think it doesnt
21:26 <@rizen> depends upon your needs
21:26 <@rizen> for our needs it's fine
21:26 <+crythias> Got an image? you can get colors to match http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/grids/
21:26 <@rizen> all i care about is the percentage of votes
21:26 <@rizen> not the number
21:27 <@rizen> i'm not saying it wouldn't be useful
21:27 <@rizen> but there's a lot of stuff that would be useful
21:27 <+crythias> oops
21:27 <@rizen> everything on the RFE list for that mater
21:27 <+crythias> http://www.degraeve.com/color-palette/index.php?q=http://www.degraeve.com/images/beach.jpg,304035396DA36B9FA3A3BBBE758C74,000C000069DC65D3DBDBFFFF7AAB78,1
21:27 <@rizen> and then some
21:27 < iPhoneGuy> You can get the percentage by the chart itself... Not the total number. Not showing the total number of votes means the Poll is just senseless in a statistical perspective
21:27 <@rizen> oh...if fyou just want the total number
21:27 <@rizen> then you can already do that
21:27 <@rizen> you just have to add it to your template
21:28 <+crythias> Having an online poll is generally senseless in any statistically important way.
21:28 < iPhoneGuy> As of now, it's possible using the default chart. Not using 3D charts
21:28 <@rizen> crythias: i couldn't agree more
21:28 <@rizen> no...you can do it with the 3d chart too
21:28 < iPhoneGuy> crythias: not really
21:28 <@rizen> cuz all the variables that are availabe in teh html chart
21:29 <@rizen> are available in the template for the 3d chart as well
21:29 < iPhoneGuy> Oh good then I can do that myself :)
21:29 <@rizen> it's the same template
21:29 <@rizen> they're just seperated by an "if"
21:29 < iPhoneGuy> But this makes the whole thing even more amazing... Why there is for html and not for 3D?
21:29 <+crythias> iPhoneGuy: if you think so, then I say let's use online voting for President, now. Vote early, vote often.
21:30 <@rizen> iphoneguy: stop arguing
21:30 < iPhoneGuy> hah it's just a funny quote or what
21:30 <+perlDreamer> iPhoneGuy: It's just how the template is written. The capabilities are still there.
21:30 < iPhoneGuy> Ok fine
21:30 <@rizen> put your arguements in the rfe
21:30 <@rizen> i'm not an rfe list
21:31 <@rizen> and neither is irc
21:31 < iPhoneGuy> what's this for then?
21:31 <@rizen> chatting
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> about WebGUI... So I think WebGUI RFE are just on topic
21:32 <@rizen> right
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> ;)
21:32 <@rizen> discussing ideas is one thing
21:32 <+perlDreamer> telling people they're wrong, senseless, stupid, etc. is another
21:32 <@rizen> trying to convince me of something after i've already told you that it's an rfe is another
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> It's just my opinion guys... Why you get worried for that
21:33 <@rizen> i'm not worried about your opinion
21:33 <@rizen> you should have your opinion
21:33 < iPhoneGuy> So what's the problem
21:33 <+crythias> 'cause we won't argue with the dev for stuff that's not high priority.
21:33 <@rizen> you just shouldn't try to force your opinion on others
21:33 < iPhoneGuy> you seem to want start a flame or something
21:33 < iPhoneGuy> just keep it cool
21:33 <@rizen> i don't want to start a flame
21:34 <@rizen> let me try to explain it to you another way
21:34 < iPhoneGuy> nor I want to force opinions to others
21:34 <@rizen> what i'm trying to say is that you seem to think that this should be higher priority than evertying else just cuz you want it
21:34 <@rizen> and everyone thinks that about the things that they want
21:34 <@rizen> this is why we have an rfe list
21:34 <@rizen> with karma
21:35 <@rizen> so people can put their karma wheir their mouth is
21:35 < iPhoneGuy> not really... I said for me it's senseless. For you it's not? Ok no problem, keep going. No need to argue more
21:35 <+crythias> Radix__
21:35 <+crythias> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/ability-to-resend-user-activation-emails
21:36 <+crythias> Jesse. I was thinking about the same thing re: reset password.
21:36 < iPhoneGuy> I agree with RFE... But that works when the list is not that big. Now that there are lots of entries, I doubt people spend a lot of time browsing and reviewing all of it
21:36  * crythias thinks reset password shouldn't be automatic, or at least not until clicking a link in an email.
21:37 <+perlDreamer> That's why you should prime it with your own karma to get it near the top of the list
21:37 <+perlDreamer> or, if the RFE is approved, just code it yourself and submit a patch
21:37 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/support/community-wiki/community-wiki/how-to-add-a-feature-to-webgui-core
21:37 < iPhoneGuy> same thing applies... Just one person Karma isn't enough for the RFE to go on top if the list is big
21:37 <+crythias> yeah... or beg for karma people to add karma to your rfe.
21:37 <+crythias> well, not really.
21:38 <+perlDreamer> or build your own karma by working the boards, submitting bugs, taking polls, etc.
21:38 <+crythias> some people have gobs of karma (me) and would like to apply karma to smth.
21:38 < iPhoneGuy> I mean for a newcomer
21:38 < ckotil> im ready to spend my karma on some pb warez
21:38 <+crythias> nothing wrong with begging for karma.
21:39 <+perlDreamer> karma can also be bought, or you could contract with PB to get it done as well
21:39 <+crythias> it's happened, though I didn't like a specific RFE.
21:39 < iPhoneGuy> heh
21:39 <+perlDreamer> or, in this case, if you'd read the online docs for the Poll template you would have found the answer yourself.
21:40 <+crythias> hint: I just dropped 2000 karma on that pie chart thing. it's front page, now.
21:40 < iPhoneGuy> ah yeah WebGUI docs are so good! lol
21:40 < iPhoneGuy> woha thanks crythias!
21:40 <+crythias> and I have 6300 left to spend.
21:41 < iPhoneGuy> cool
21:41 <+perlDreamer> it's rated at 1:10
21:41 < iPhoneGuy> can I suggest you some other RFE to raise? :D
21:41 <+crythias> depends on what the invis difficulty rating might be
21:42 < iPhoneGuy> Ah a question
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> I recently saw a 6.x website and it had an advanced search box
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> Why does 7 got such a basic search?
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> it's a complete rewrite of the 6.x search?
21:46 <+perlDreamer> rizen: there may be a good way to fix the caching system just by changing the default cache timeout from "1 year" to "1 month".
21:46 <@rizen> the 7.x search is actually far more powerful than the 6.x search
21:46 <@rizen> it just does it with less boxes
21:47 <@rizen> the default cache timeout is 1 hour
21:47 <+perlDreamer> my bad
21:47 <+perlDreamer> All cached RSS feeds are set for 1 year
21:47 <+perlDreamer> we could change it to 1 month
21:47 <@rizen> they should be only for 1 hour as well
21:47 <@rizen> rss is only good for about an hour for most sites
21:47 <@rizen> and then their updated again
21:47 < iPhoneGuy> Well Google search is powerful but they do have an advanced search option
21:47 <+perlDreamer> that's an easy fix
21:48 < iPhoneGuy> :)
21:48 <@rizen> so make it an rfe then
21:48 <@rizen> i'm not an rfe list, as i said before
21:48 < iPhoneGuy> Yeah I'm browsing trough them and there's one already
21:48 < iPhoneGuy> crythias you might spend some more karma? :)
21:48 <+perlDreamer> should we nuke the current RSS cache during the upgrade as well?
21:48 <@rizen> there are some users than have more the 30k karma
21:49 < iPhoneGuy> plainblack staff I guess
21:49 <@rizen> nope
21:49 <@rizen> i have the most karma on the pb staff
21:49 <@rizen> and it's only 8k
21:49 <@rizen> phone support customers get 5k per month
21:49 <@rizen> automatically
21:49 < iPhoneGuy> and who then.. I don't see such big activity on the forums
21:49 < iPhoneGuy> oh ok
21:50 <@rizen> also, we have some contests coming up
21:50 < iPhoneGuy> I didn't knew that... It's written on the website?
21:50 <@rizen> starting next week i think
21:50 <@rizen> you can win up to 10k karma
21:50 < iPhoneGuy> cool
21:50 <@rizen> in addition to other stuff
21:50 < iPhoneGuy> contests like fixing bugs, adding things, etc.?
21:50 <@rizen> also, each time you vote on a poll you get 100 karma
21:50 <@rizen> the one that will start next week
21:50 <@rizen> will be for writing howtos for something in webgui
21:51 <@rizen> like "how to create a cool poll template"
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> hah
21:51 <@rizen> or "how to use a package"
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> on the Wiki I guess
21:51 <@rizen> or "how to manage users"
21:51 <@rizen> yup
21:51 <@rizen> each contest will be different
21:51 <@rizen> some will be design related
21:51 <@rizen> some programming
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> I also would like to see this.. Crythias  you there? :D http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/internal-communication-between-users#gAMUJeMKE4OF3ZKY3EQ7jg
21:52 <+crythias> pms, you mean? 
21:52 < iPhoneGuy> yeah
21:52 < iPhoneGuy> would be really useful for lots of people
21:52 <+crythias> why?
21:53 < iPhoneGuy> well any community website will find it useful
21:53 <+perlDreamer> mine won't
21:53 <+crythias> why?
21:53 < iPhoneGuy> every forum script has private messages... WebGUI does not
21:53 <+crythias> anyone who wants to be reached can allow contact info to be available.
21:53 < iPhoneGuy> Also other CMSs
21:54 <+crythias> some more enterprising people even include ALL the IM reachable ways.
21:54 < iPhoneGuy> Not really... I run a website with lots of users and PhpBB private messages are used  really A LOT
21:54 <+crythias> speaking of which, I suppose I need to redo my user1 macro...
21:55 <+crythias> yeah, but why do I want a third party to hold those messages for me?
21:55 < iPhoneGuy> Third party?
21:56 <+crythias> yeah, you
21:56 < iPhoneGuy> That's why they should be part of webgui
21:56 <+crythias> phpBB is the third party
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21:56 < iPhoneGuy> heh that's your opinion. But if you look at almost every community website, you'll find that private messages are used a lot
21:56 <+crythias> how would I know?
21:57 < iPhoneGuy> By reading the forum
21:57 < iPhoneGuy> users often say when they send PM, etc.
21:57 <+crythias> 'kay.
21:57 <+crythias> I'd just as easily say emailme offlist. or im me on Y!IM/AIM/MSM/ICQ
21:58 < iPhoneGuy> It's not a handy way a lot of times. If you are abroad or out of your comp, you might not have email and IM
21:58 < iPhoneGuy> forum PMs are just more handy
22:00 < iPhoneGuy> it's better to have it integrated with your system
22:00 <+crythias> better than what?
22:00 < iPhoneGuy> there should be a reason why all forum scripts have that feature. And it's because it is being used by users, not because it's fancy
22:01 <@rizen> actually...not all forum scripts have it
22:01 <+crythias> because private communications between users is important to the stability and reuse of a bb?
22:01 < iPhoneGuy> better than what you said. Something not integrated, sapareted: email, AIM/ICQ, IRC, etc.
22:01 <@rizen> primarily it's phpBB that has it
22:01 <@rizen> and that script is used EVERYWHERE
22:01 <@rizen> so you just think that they all have it
22:01 < iPhoneGuy> vBullettin, IPB, and loads more
22:02 <@rizen> ok, but i can also name a lot of them that don't have it
22:02 <@rizen> you're arguing again
22:02 <@rizen> rather than just putting your argument on the rfe list
22:02 < iPhoneGuy> the one that don't have it are just not being used
22:02 < iPhoneGuy> I am speaking about the ones widely used by websites
22:03 <+crythias> If someone wants to pm me, they know how to do it. If it's too inconvenient for them, they don't have to contact me.
22:03 <@rizen> your suposition is that the reason they're not being used is that they don't have private messaging
22:03 <+crythias> and all is nice and peaceful in my world.
22:03 < iPhoneGuy> eheh it's one of the reasons of course
22:03 < iPhoneGuy> your world :) fine
22:04 < iPhoneGuy> But the Web world is full of PMs eheh
22:04 <+crythias> dude, get over it. try a different flame pot. 
22:05 < iPhoneGuy> flame? You're doing the whole thing, I'm just supporting facts
22:05  * crythias puts a workflow that generates a private cs for every user who registers.
22:05 < iPhoneGuy> too bad for you if you don't want to listen to suggestions
22:05 < iPhoneGuy> that's nice :)
22:05 < iPhoneGuy> should be pretty resource intensive
22:06 <+crythias> why?
22:07 < iPhoneGuy> if you have lots of new users every day...
22:07 < iPhoneGuy> and anyway that won't allow people to communicate with each other privately
22:07 <+crythias> then again, if I wanted to use x, because phpBB used it, I'd um...
22:08 < iPhoneGuy> you'd?
22:08 <+crythias> use phpbb
22:08 < iPhoneGuy> if WebGUI had a plugin for it, sure I would too
22:08 < iPhoneGuy> but if you want to use WebGUI as a CMS...
22:08 <+crythias> what do you need? SSO? no problem...
22:09 < iPhoneGuy> SSO?
22:09 <+crythias> single signon
22:10 < iPhoneGuy> no problem?
22:10 <+crythias> not by much.
22:10 < iPhoneGuy> you still have to write something custom, it's not out of the box. Not all things support LDAP
22:11 <+crythias> does phpbb support ldap?
22:11 < iPhoneGuy> hence, building the PM into WebGUI would be better and useful to everyone
22:11 <+crythias> but everyone uses phpbb
22:11 < iPhoneGuy> rather than creating a custom solution
22:11 < iPhoneGuy> everyone uses vBullettin too :)
22:12 <+crythias> it's all about a custom auth module. after that, big deal. a plugin
22:12 <+crythias> and a link.
22:12 < iPhoneGuy> indeed how many for it? :)
22:12 <+crythias> how many what for it? 
22:13 < iPhoneGuy> for the auth module and plugin
22:13 <+crythias> auth module=plugin
22:13 < iPhoneGuy> question remain
22:13 < iPhoneGuy> s
22:13 <+crythias> except wre doesn't have php :(
22:13 < iPhoneGuy> true
22:13 <+crythias> but how many what?
22:14 < iPhoneGuy> money.. It's a custom thing
22:14 <@rizen> $1,000,000,000,000,000
22:14 <@khenn> I've actually had several requests for a PM system in WebGUI.  I think it's something we want to do, there are just more important things in the hopper
22:14 < iPhoneGuy> :D
22:14 <@rizen> that's my special prices just for you
22:14 <@khenn> aren't you lowballing it a bit there JT?
22:14 <@khenn> =
22:14 <@khenn> =p
22:14 <+crythias> It really depends if you're going to use an existing phpBB userbase or simply adding phpbb to WebGUI usersbase
22:14 <@rizen> your right...for iPhoneGuy we need to do something extra special
22:15 <@rizen> $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
22:15 <@khenn> It's not an appropriate number unless you have to use powers
22:15 < iPhoneGuy> woha your humor is really amazing :D
22:15 <@khenn> $1E33 IMO
22:15 <@khenn> =)
22:15  * crythias puts his pinky finger at the side of his mouth... 1 Treelian dollarz!
22:15 < iPhoneGuy> cool khenn do you have any timeframe for it?
22:15 <@khenn> at that price?
22:16 <@khenn> I can have it done for you tomorrow =0
22:16 < iPhoneGuy> hah no I mean when you said it's something you want to do
22:16 <@khenn> oh
22:16 <@rizen> i'll have it for you this afternoon for half of what khenn is charging
22:16 <@khenn> I'm not sure really
22:17 < iPhoneGuy> I don't think you have enough programmers to accomplish that for this afternoon :D
22:17 <@rizen> we want to do almost everything on the rfe list
22:17 <@rizen> actually yes i do
22:17 <@khenn> I'll bet you $1E33 that we do!
22:17 <@rizen> i can do it myself
22:17 < iPhoneGuy> yeah but the RFE list keeps growing and will always grow so...
22:17 <@rizen> it would only take about 2.5 hours to build
22:17 <@rizen> and another hour to test
22:17 < iPhoneGuy> really?
22:17 <@rizen> at least the way i'm thinking about it
22:17 <@khenn> I think in grander scales
22:18 <@khenn> but to just add that, yeah
22:18 <@rizen> the thing is, i don't want to do it
22:18 <@khenn> I think the whole messaging thing in WebGUI needs an overhaul
22:18 <@khenn> and part of that is the ability to send PMs
22:18 <@rizen> you think that about everything in webgui
22:18 <@rizen> and you're an idiot
22:18 < iPhoneGuy> lol
22:19 <@rizen> the messaging system in webgui was overhauled in 6.x
22:19 <@rizen> and it was built with pm in mind
22:19 <@khenn> ok overhauled was not the right word
22:19 <+crythias> heh
22:19 <@rizen> so that it can do it, all i need to do is finish it
22:19 <+crythias> be easy to modify login.php to attach to WebGUI db
22:19 <@khenn> I think it needs a new user interface
22:19 < iPhoneGuy> but now you said you don't want to.. So you changed your mind?
22:19 <@khenn> and yes, I do think that about everything in WebGUI =p
22:20 <@rizen> i don't want to do it because iPhoneGuy wants it
22:20 <+crythias> I just don't want to get these "untitled"
22:20 < iPhoneGuy> hah I thought that
22:20 <+crythias> messages in email
22:20 <@rizen> and he keeps arguing with you and me
22:20 <@rizen> so screw him
22:20 < iPhoneGuy> rather an infantile attitude
22:20 < iPhoneGuy> lol
22:20 <+crythias> shut UP
22:20 <@rizen> indeed
22:20 <@rizen> i'm taking my toys and going him
22:20 <@rizen> home
22:21 < iPhoneGuy> anyway, hence my name, I will probably do an iPhone-ready interface for some WebGUI assets
22:21 <+crythias> last thing we need now is a bunch of fanbois "but does it work with Cisco's iPhone?"
22:22 < iPhoneGuy> hah yeah I guess there will be lots of Cisco's iPhone users lol
22:22 < iPhoneGuy> they get lots of free advertising for that
22:23 < iPhoneGuy> before last Tuesday, pretty no one heard about Cisco's iPhone :D
22:25 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has left #webgui []
22:25 < iPhoneGuy> well guys, thanks for the warm welcome anyway lol
22:25 < iPhoneGuy> keeps newcomers like me :D
22:29 -!- iPhoneGuy [n=iPhoneGu@85-18-14-23.fastres.net] has quit ["Quitting!"]
22:41 <@rizen> do you think that was just maxscience under a new name?
22:43 <@khenn> who knows
22:43 <@khenn> didn't seem like him
23:13 -!- MrHairgrease [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #webgui
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23:48 -!- ckotil [n=newtrino@snare.grnoc.iu.edu] has quit ["leaving"]
23:58 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
23:59 < PedersenMJ> Buenas tardes!
--- Day changed Fri Jan 12 2007
00:00 <+MrHairgrease> oi!
00:00 <@rizen> you missed it
00:01 < PedersenMJ> What did I miss?
00:01 <@rizen> we had a noob here today that was almost as bad as maxscience
00:01 < PedersenMJ> Heh. Still noob myself. Hopefully, only mildly annoying, though.
00:01 < PedersenMJ> Dunno maxscience, though. And now am very curious what happened.
00:01 <@rizen> he couldn't understand why i wouldn't immediately move his rfe to the top of my todo list
00:01 <@rizen> just cuz he thought it was important
00:02 < PedersenMJ> Lemme guess: His rfe, therefore should be first, and you should do it for free, right?
00:02 <@rizen> maxscience is one of those guys that joins a community
00:02 <@rizen> wants the world for nothing
00:02 <@rizen> and isn't willing to contribute anything himself
00:02 <@rizen> except his complaints
00:02 <+MrHairgrease> rizen: do you have a chat log?
00:02 <@rizen> i'm sure someone is logging it
00:02 <@rizen> i have it on my screen right now, but 
00:03 <@rizen> well i guess i could paste it into nopaste
00:03 <+MrHairgrease> or email it
00:03 <+MrHairgrease> i don't care
00:03 < PedersenMJ> If anybody prefers email, mine is m.pedersen@icelus.org
00:04 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/p/ieTKlT97.html
00:04 <@rizen> i guess i don't have the complete conversation
00:04 <@rizen> cuz it's off my buffer
00:04 <@rizen> i only have the last half of it
00:04 <@rizen> where he started arguing with crythias
00:04 <+MrHairgrease> too bad
00:05 <@rizen> but it's in that nopaste url
00:05 <+MrHairgrease> iPhoneguy
00:05 <+MrHairgrease> well i guess he must be hip =)
00:05 <@rizen> so hip he acquired his username yesterday
00:06 <@rizen> =)
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> he must be one of those pesky slahdot readers
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> =)
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> how did I know that?
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> and why...
00:08 <@rizen> he felt we didn't give him a warm welcome
00:08  * PedersenMJ is only about halfway through the log, and just shakes his head. This guy is a trip.
00:08 <@rizen> the thing that really gets me is that crythias tried to appease him by donating 2000 karma to his rfe
00:08 <@rizen> which brought it all the way to the front page
00:08 <@rizen> from the last page
00:09 <@rizen> and he then proceeded to argue with crythias
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> I'm saving some for later
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> I'm making a report of some embedded thingy I made for a project
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> been doing that all day
00:09 <@rizen> i've been doing support all day
00:09 <@rizen> we had something like 40 support requests today
00:09 <@rizen> which is a lot
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> must be as much fun i guess
00:10 <+MrHairgrease> ouch
00:10 <@rizen> yours is more fun
00:10 <@rizen> at least for me
00:10 <+MrHairgrease> maybe
00:10 <+MrHairgrease> heh
00:10 <@rizen> cuz at least you don't have to deal with people
00:10 <+MrHairgrease> ditto on my side
00:10 <@rizen> i'm bad a tthe whole people dealing thing
00:11 <+MrHairgrease> i know
00:11 <+MrHairgrease> you told me many times
00:15 < PedersenMJ> Wow.... He's complaining about the "warm welcome". I dunno, I think it's been a lot of fun in here, and I just started two/three days ago.
00:17 <+MrHairgrease> Complaining makes the world go round
00:17 <+MrHairgrease> noting new
00:18 < PedersenMJ> I've dealt with his type before. He's worth reading the log, just to be able to shake your head in sympathy, and that's about *all* he's worth.
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> i'm saving it for later this night
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> but I'm curious
00:19 < PedersenMJ> Nah, he ain't worth a save :)
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> ok
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> I didn't save it
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> I just keep my browser window open
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00:35 <+perlDreamer> check this out
00:35 <+perlDreamer> I actually had work to do today
00:35 <+perlDreamer> It took 40 minutes
00:35 <+MrHairgrease> man
00:35 <+MrHairgrease> you must be tired =)
00:36 <@rizen> yeah, you better rest up
00:36 <+perlDreamer> exhausted
00:36 <+MrHairgrease> working...
00:36 <+perlDreamer> yeah, I'll relax by doing some WebGUI hacking
00:36 <+MrHairgrease> you must be in the twilight zone
00:36 <+perlDreamer> I'm salaried
00:36 <+perlDreamer> they pay me the same one way or the other
00:37 <+perlDreamer> how about if we talk about nesting macro bugs for a little bit?
00:38 <@rizen> who is we
00:38 <+perlDreamer> you and me :)
00:38 <+perlDreamer> and anyone else
00:39  * MrHairgrease ducks
00:39 <+perlDreamer> based on user input (like the company name in Tavis's bug) or type of output returned (Klaus's bug) Macros won't nest
00:39 <+perlDreamer> I used to think that a better parser would fix it
00:39 <+perlDreamer> but I don't think that anymore
00:40 <+perlDreamer> so we either need to live with the fact that not all macros will parse, or find a safe way to nest them.
00:40 <@rizen> macros won't nest if they have quotes in them
00:40 <@rizen> that's the jist of this right?
00:40 <@rizen> if the output contains quote
00:40 <+perlDreamer> commas are a problem, too
00:40 <@rizen> ok
00:40 <+perlDreamer> but yeah, there are "illegal" characters
00:41 <@rizen> i'm fine with it just the way it is
00:41 <@rizen> but assuming that  you actually want to find a solution for this
00:41 <@rizen> we can brainstorm
00:41 < PedersenMJ> Simple fix? Why not have the macro output the html entity (&quot;) and the one for comma?
00:41 <@rizen> cuz i can't
00:41 <@rizen> in most cases you actually want the real character
00:42 <@rizen> for example
00:42 <@rizen> if it's outputing a link
00:42 <@rizen> <a href=&quot;url&quot;>Link</a>
00:42 <@rizen> won't work
00:42 < PedersenMJ> See, like I said, simple fix. And the simplistic fix is the borked one, of course :)
00:43 <@rizen> i have 2 possible solutions
00:43 <@rizen> and you may have others
00:43 <@rizen> well i should say, i have an unlimited number of solutions based upon the same ideas
00:43 <+perlDreamer> the only thing I can thing of is pretty extreme
00:43 <+perlDreamer> what have you got?
00:44 <@rizen> ^Macro(); outputs normal
00:44 <@rizen> but #Macro(); escapes it's output
00:44 <@rizen> or ^Macro("escape", other params); escapes outpute
00:45 <@rizen> or ^Macro[params]; escapes output
00:45 <+perlDreamer> actually, that's close to my idea
00:45 <+perlDreamer> using a better internal separator
00:45 <+perlDreamer> ^Macro([arg1][arg2][arg3]);
00:45 <@rizen> yeah, but mine is backward compatible
00:45 <@rizen> and yours isn't
00:46 <@rizen> i'm adding new options
00:46 <@rizen> you're replacing something existing
00:46 <+perlDreamer> it could be done in addition to the current setup
00:46 <+perlDreamer> escaping and non-escaping
00:47 <+perlDreamer> with the non-escaping being deprecated
00:47 <@rizen> i must be missing something...could you print out what yours would do
00:47 <@rizen> full example
00:47 <+perlDreamer> ^Macro("one","two") is our current macro function
00:47 <+perlDreamer> it may nest, it may not
00:48 <@rizen> yes
00:48 <+perlDreamer> ^Macro([one],[two]) is our new macro function which is guaranteed to work
00:48 <@rizen> k
00:48 <+perlDreamer> Macro.pm will have to autodetect which one it is handling and do the right thing to parse
00:48 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrAFKGrease
00:48 <@rizen> i disagree, but continue
00:49 <+perlDreamer> with safe delimiters, the parsing of nested content will always work
00:49 <+perlDreamer> what's the disagree part?
00:49 <@rizen> i don't see how your way helps anything
00:49 <@rizen> it just replaces one problem with another
00:49 <@rizen> what if the content contains [ ]
00:49 <+perlDreamer> the delimiter is actually the sequence ],[
00:50 <@rizen> ok
00:50 <@rizen> i'll grant you that it's unlikely that ],[ will be in content
00:50 <@rizen> but it might be
00:50 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:50 <@rizen> if we're doing ANYTHING
00:50 <@rizen> we're going to fix EVERYTHING
00:50 <@rizen> therefore
00:50 <@rizen> no matter what we do
00:50 <@rizen> we need to do escaping
00:51 <@rizen> therefore, why change what the user already expects to be able to do
00:51 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:51 <@rizen> i mean...we can do your way if you're really set on it
00:51 <@rizen> but we still have to do escaping
00:51 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:51 <+perlDreamer> I agree
00:52 <@rizen> and now all the sudden we have to teach the users that they should be using this new format
00:52 <@rizen> where with my way
00:52 <@preaction-m> if a macro is an argument to a macro, encase the output in "" and escape. does Macro.pm know when a sub-macro is being called?
00:52 <@rizen> we only teach them something
00:52 <@rizen> when escaping is a problem
00:52 <+perlDreamer> is it safe to always escape, and then unescape just before exiting Macro::process?
00:52 <@rizen> yes/no, no
00:53 <+perlDreamer> ?
00:53 <@rizen> the answer to your first question is yes and no
00:53 <@rizen> and your second is no
00:53 <@rizen> the amount of content coming out of the macro could be huge
00:53 <@rizen> therefore always escaping
00:53 <@rizen> and unescaping
00:53 <@rizen> could be a performance problem
00:53 <@rizen> think of the AdminBar macro for example
00:53 <+perlDreamer> oh yeah
00:54 <@rizen> all the javascript and stuff
00:54 <@rizen> that it outputs
00:54 <@rizen> nasty
00:54 <+perlDreamer> macros suck
00:54 <@rizen> macros do suck
00:54 <@rizen> but that's also why they're powerfule
00:54 <@rizen> =)
00:54 <+perlDreamer> you can do a lot with a low pressure region
00:55 <+perlDreamer> wait a minute
00:55 <+perlDreamer> the things that we most need to escape are the most likely to not be escapable
00:55 <@rizen> ^Macro(param)/;
00:55 <@rizen> means escape
00:55 <+perlDreamer> You can never escape the LoginToggle macro
00:56 <+perlDreamer> so it can't ever be nested
00:56 <@rizen> right
00:56 <@rizen> was someone trying to nest that?
00:56 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:56 <+perlDreamer> Klaus
00:56 <@rizen> for what?
00:56 <@rizen> why would you ever nest it?
00:56 <+perlDreamer> I'm pulling up the bug now
00:56 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/nested-macro-errors#vSk3E4oF2gNZt_SM5NRzRw
00:56 <@rizen> the problem is that people suck
00:56 <@rizen> not macros
00:56 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:57 <+perlDreamer> Maybe I'll go and document which macros can nest and which ones can't
00:57 <@rizen> ok conversation over
00:57 <+perlDreamer> that means that whoever is writing your CM book just got some free content
00:57 <@rizen> because this is not a programming language
00:57 <@rizen> it's called the GroupText macro
00:57 <+perlDreamer> we need a table which says which ones can nest and which can't
00:57 <@rizen> not the GroupHtmlBlob macro
00:57 <@rizen> no we don't
00:57 <@rizen> people just need to not be idiots
00:57 <@rizen> if it outputs HTML
00:58 <@rizen> it can't be used in nesting
00:58 <@rizen> PERIOD
00:58 <+perlDreamer> if people were not idiots, you wouldn't need to write books
00:58 <+perlDreamer> but I agree with you
00:58 <@khenn> not true
00:59 <@khenn> even people who are not idiots don't read books =p
00:59 <+perlDreamer> yeah, people like us read source code
01:02 <+perlDreamer> rizen: is it okay to close the nesting bugs once I get the docs committed?
01:02 <@rizen> yes...just tell them they aren't bugs
01:03 <@rizen> and close them
01:07 <+perlDreamer> done
01:07 <+perlDreamer> I'll do the docs next.
01:39 <@rizen> i suck
01:39 <@rizen> so much
01:39 <@rizen> that i'm going to suck all of you down with me
01:39 <@rizen> =)
01:39 <+perlDreamer> welcome to the bottom
01:39 <+perlDreamer> what did you do?
01:40 <@rizen> just exist
01:40 <@rizen> i'm going to have to work all night on support tonight
01:41 <+perlDreamer> lots of login requests?
01:41 <@rizen> i can't talk about it
01:41 <@rizen> just bitching
01:41 <+perlDreamer> $rizen->bitch("enable");
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02:40 <@rizen> print {$chalkboard} "I will not pull my sister's hair." for (1.100);
02:40 <@rizen> print {$chalkboard} "I will not pull my sister's hair." for (1..100);
02:40 <+perlDreamer> that's better
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05:10 < PedersenMJ> So, since the MOTD I've been seeing hasn't reminded me yet, and I haven't remembered yet (and am still too lazy to hit Google), I have to ask how to register my IRC nick?
05:12 <+crythias> msg nickserv help
05:14 < PedersenMJ> thank you. Now, we find out how well psi works as an irc client...
05:14 < PedersenMJ> /msg nickserv help
05:14 < PedersenMJ> Figures. Need to use a real one. WIll do it later then :)
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05:20 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT, can I change my nick to iPhoneGuy and start demanding features? :)
05:20 <+crythias>  /kick pedersenmj
05:21 <@rizen> iphoneguy was worse to crythias than to me
05:21 < PedersenMJ> Actually, after I get these first few themes squared away, I might look into trying to package webgui into something easy to install and configure. Quite frankly, it's an absolute bear to do right now.
05:22 <@rizen> so i think that you'd better watch out what you do
05:22 <@rizen> have you tried the wre?
05:22 < PedersenMJ> When I read chat logs, I rarely see the names. Sorry about that crythias.
05:22 <@rizen> i can usually install wre + webgui in about 10 minutes
05:22 < PedersenMJ> No, but only one reason I haven't: I run Debian.
05:23 <@rizen> THere's a debian version of wre
05:23 < PedersenMJ> Really? Has it always been there?
05:23 <@rizen> snapcount maintains it
05:23 < PedersenMJ> See, I'm so used to prepackaged always being "rpm or nothing"
05:23 <@rizen> it's not an official distro yet
05:24 <@rizen> but starting with WRE 0.8
05:24 <@rizen> debian and ubuntu will have supported wre
05:25 < PedersenMJ> Okay, that's cool. That might actually be enough for me, then. I might just finish these themes, and get them into an actual package. After that, drop my current install entirely, and go with wre.
05:26 < PedersenMJ> Ubuntu might just be the best thing to ever happen to Debian. Enough people are making packages for it, and most of them are compatible with Debian. Of course, I might just switch to Ubuntu soon, too.
05:27 < Radix-wrk> I've always been a debian person myself, but I have to say Ubuntu is very nice for a desktop machine :)
05:28 < PedersenMJ> Well, I wasn't always a Debian person. Started off with RedHat 5.2, actually. A work friend raved on and on about Debian, so I tried it, and haven't looked back (that was at 2.1, btw).
05:29 < Radix-wrk> I started with slackware 1.1 :)
05:29 < Radix-wrk> or 1.2 or something.. came on heaps of floppies
05:30 < Radix-wrk> and I couldn't compile my own kernel - had to get my friend to compile an optimised one for me as he had 8MB ram, twice as much as I did ;)
05:30 < PedersenMJ> Oh yeah, I *did* install slackware first. For a fledgling ISP, actually. Not that I did a good job, but I *did* install it for them. But from CD.
05:31 < PedersenMJ> Sometime later, I got my hands on a 386/sx16 w/8M of ram. Downloaded all the floppies, and installed it, just so I could say I did it. And this is the first time in about 8 years that I've said it :)
05:32 < Radix-wrk> I went slackware, redhat, mandrake, debian and now debian/ubuntu really :)
05:32 <@rizen> ok, informal quick poll
05:32 <@rizen> show of hands, who's here?
05:32 < PedersenMJ> Didn't really do much with slackware, though I used it once or twice. Went to RedHat, then Debian. Nothing else has pulled me away from Debian, yet.
05:32 < Radix-wrk> crythias, one rfe that could really use some karma is http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/search-asset-returns-urls
05:32  * PedersenMJ shows his hand.
05:32  * Radix-wrk puts up his hand.
05:33 <@rizen> crythias, are you here?
05:33 <@rizen> you were
05:33 <@rizen> preaction?
05:33 <@rizen> hmmm
05:33 <@rizen> i guess it's just us three
05:33 <+crythias> hi
05:33 <@rizen> ok...my poll is this
05:33 <@rizen> what do you think about the idea of splitting up plainblack.com and webgui.org
05:33 <@rizen> plainblack.com would be all the commercial stuff
05:34 <@rizen> webgui.org woudl be the community stuff
05:34 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. not a bad idea actually
05:34 <+crythias> can we advert on webgui.org?
05:34 <@rizen> what do you mean advert?
05:35 <@rizen> advertise what?
05:35 < PedersenMJ> If you do it, then you need to make sure that pretty well every single page on webgui.org says "Sponsored by plainblack.com" or somesuch.
05:35 < Radix-wrk> Definitely have PB advertising and links on webgui - (linking to PB's custom development services)
05:36 <@rizen> crythias, is that what you meant?
05:36 <@rizen> or did you mean other people advertising?
05:36 <@rizen> or did you mean something else?
05:36 <@rizen> and do you mean in banner form?
05:36 <@rizen> or do you mean like in message board posts
05:36 <+crythias> Just thinking out loud. If you separate Webgui.org from plainblack.com, it could be more available to share the wealth of all competitors for webgui hosting, etc. and pb.com could still "collect" money for advertising from other competitors.
05:36 <+crythias> maybe.
05:37 <+crythias> maybe banner form.
05:37 <@rizen> so we could sell advertising to other webgui hosters, designers, programmers, etc?
05:37 <+crythias> don't like it in message board posts UNLESS it's honest communication about providers of WebGUI services, but only in that thread.
05:38 <+crythias> rizen: yes.
05:38 <@rizen> i don't see why we couldn't do that
05:38 <@rizen> yeah, i really don't like adverts in forums either
05:38 < Radix-wrk> You could also take more advantage of some url's: wiki.webgui.org, dev.webgui.org, api.webgui.org, cvs.webgui.org
05:38 <@rizen> they just distract from the "meat" of the thread
05:38 <@rizen> we can already take advantage of that
05:38 <@rizen> and do
05:38 < Radix-wrk> Sounds good to me
05:39 < Radix-wrk> afk - lunchtime
05:44 <@rizen> i wish there was some way to screw around with radix while he is away
05:45 <@rizen> sort of like when you're playing cards with someone
05:45 <@rizen> and they get up to get a drink
05:45 <@rizen> you can switch their cards
05:45 <@rizen> or steal some chips
05:45 <@rizen> something like that
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Well... There's got to be some good irc practical jokes.
05:46 <@rizen> i wish i could change his nick
05:46 <@rizen> that would be cool
05:47 <@rizen> like /othernick radix-wrk radix-likes-boys
05:47 <@rizen> that would be cool
05:47 < PedersenMJ> Gotta set up your own irc server for that, but I'm sure you could then.
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT, I'm pondering buying some more docs. Specifically, I'd like to see more on how to build/manage/package up templates. Anything in particular you could point me to, rather than just the online WDR?
05:50 <@rizen> toward the end of february
05:50 <@rizen> there will be a book coming out on that
05:51 <@rizen> 300+ pages
05:51 <@rizen> paperback
05:51 <@rizen> we have 3 of those books
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Any way to preorder it?
05:51 <@rizen> beyond that
05:51 <@rizen> there isn't anything
05:51 <@rizen> no...cuz we haven't officially announced them yet
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Dang. Well, get cracking on an announcement then :)
05:52 <@rizen> i want them completely written and in the editing phase before we do that
05:52 < PedersenMJ> That will be my RFE for tonight: An announcement of upcoming books so that I can preorder them. 
05:53 <@rizen> that particular book should be completely written in the next two weeks
05:53 <@rizen> the goal is January 30
05:55 < PedersenMJ> Working on understanding enough of the "navigation" section of webgui to incorporate it into the burned theme.
06:01 <@rizen> you could just include a generic nav
06:01 <@rizen> and then people can put in whatever they want
06:01 <@rizen> cuz they probably will anyway
06:01 < PedersenMJ> Wait... I can use an ^AssetProxy() to point to a navigation control, yes?
06:01 <@rizen> yes
06:02 < PedersenMJ> Let me look this over, I think I might have just finished the theme, except for packaging.
06:02 < PedersenMJ> Okay, not quite just finished, I've also got some CSS to work on, but it's getting there.
06:02 <@rizen> good work
06:02 <@rizen> not bad for your first time
06:03 <@rizen> getting together in a week
06:06 < PedersenMJ> Actually, it'll have been three days, including the first day spent picking out themes.
06:18 < PedersenMJ> Sweet. Just a few more minor tweaks (namely, making this into the style for my site, as opposed to just one page), and the work is all done.
06:20 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... Is there an easy way to say to all Page Layouts in a folder that they should take a specific style?
06:21 <@rizen> yes
06:21 <@rizen> but i'm not going to tell you
06:21 <@rizen> they don't call me a jackass for nothing
06:22 <@rizen> go to your home page. click on the class icon. select "edit branch". it's pretty self explainatory from there.
06:23 < PedersenMJ> Oh man... I was actually looking to buy a per inicident support to get the answer. Is there a way to do so? Didn't find it on plainblack.com in the past two minutes.
06:23 <@rizen> there is but we don't advertise it
06:24 <@rizen> cuz we don't like it when people use it
06:24 <@rizen> we only offer it in certain situations
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay. Feels kind of weird. I feel like I'm taking advantage of you, and am trying to find ways to actually pay for that (well, that I can afford, to, as I just dropped way too much into vehicle maintenance).
06:25 <@rizen> as i said
06:25 <@rizen> pay me by contributing to the community
06:25 <@rizen> make a bunch of these templates into pacakges that other people can use
06:25 < PedersenMJ> That you'll have.
06:26 < PedersenMJ> http://www.nochara.org/
06:26 < PedersenMJ> That's the application of the "Burned" theme.
06:26 < PedersenMJ> Default site for webgui, of course.
06:27 <@rizen> looks like shit
06:27 <@rizen> just kidding
06:27 <@rizen> however, your login box hangs off the side
06:27 <@rizen> in firefox
06:27 <@rizen> don't know about ie
06:28 < PedersenMJ> Actually, it's not a very good theme for the default website, I know that.
06:28 < PedersenMJ> Weird, I'm running ff myself, and it's fitting inside. Which version of FF you using? I'm still on 1.5. And on Linux.
06:28 <@rizen> 2.0 on mac
06:28 < PedersenMJ> I have a mac with ff 2.0 at work, I'll dig into it tomorrow.
06:29 < PedersenMJ> Definitely a sucky theme for the webgui site. For my desires for that site, it'll be good, though.
06:29 < PedersenMJ> Now, to learn how to make the package itself.
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT? Small error (and can be submitted as bug if you wish): http://www.plainblack.com/support/clients says 1908 for WDR expiration.
06:34 <@rizen> its' a;lready been submitted
06:34 <@rizen> as a bug
06:58 < Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, your nochara.org site doesn't seem to display at all for me now
06:59 < Radix-wrk> comes up as a white background with no style at all :)
06:59 < PedersenMJ> My style is gone.
06:59 <@rizen> he put in a special exclusion just for you
06:59 < PedersenMJ> poof. gone. destroyed.
06:59 <@rizen> if $radix then $radix->screw;
06:59 <@rizen> what?
06:59 < Radix-wrk> uhuh
07:00 <@rizen> what do you mean destroyed?
07:01 < Radix-wrk> reminds me of the windows 95 code - http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article09-119
07:01 < PedersenMJ> In the asset manager, I went to the folder above my templates, and did a "duplicate", to make sure I didn't lose anything. Didn't check to make sure that worked. Made a package out of the original. Exported package. Deleted original. Tried to import package. Failed. Duplicate has no data in it at all. Destroyed.
07:02 < Radix-wrk> So go to your trash and undelete
07:02 <@rizen> yeah
07:02 <@rizen> it's in your trash
07:02 <@rizen> also...duplicate duplicates single assets
07:02 <@rizen> not entire trees
07:02 < PedersenMJ> Well, the data might be ... Okay, how much of a moron am I about to feel like?
07:02 <@rizen> admin console > trash
07:02 <@rizen> click restore
07:02 <@rizen> you're all good
07:02 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. why doesn't duplicate do whole trees?
07:03 <@rizen> cuz that would be dangerous
07:03 <@rizen> think about on plainblack.com for example
07:03 < PedersenMJ> Yep, complete moron. Thank god for trash bins :)
07:03 < PedersenMJ> It's back in place.
07:03 <@rizen> if i clicked duplicate on the "support" tab
07:03 <@rizen> there's about 500 pages
07:03 <@rizen> and 70,000 board posts
07:03 < Radix-wrk> So check # of items, if more than X then warn user
07:03 <@rizen> so by clicking duplicate
07:03 <@rizen> i just created another 70500 assets
07:03 <@rizen> and i did that accidentally
07:03 <@rizen> it would take a long time
07:04 <@rizen> and it could use a lot of resources
07:04 <@rizen> that's what packages are for
07:04 <@rizen> if you want to dup an entire tree
07:04 <@rizen> you create a package
07:04 <@rizen> and then deploy the package
07:04 <@rizen> it will recurse the tree
07:04 <@rizen> trust me
07:05 <@rizen> people don't read warnings
07:05 <@rizen> they just click "OK"
07:05 <@rizen> if people actually read warnings there wouldn't be a need for trash
07:05  * PedersenMJ raises his hand, and is guilty of that behavior.
07:06 <@rizen> it's better to make them do something explicitly
07:06 <@rizen> and that's where packages come into play
07:06 < Radix-wrk> fair enough
07:07 < PedersenMJ> Now, without setting up another instance of webgui, what's the proper way to test that I managed to export that style correctly? I've got burned.wgpkg sitting in a folder here.
07:07 <@rizen> demo.plainblack.com
07:07 <@rizen> anytime you need an "extra" instance
07:07 <@rizen> there it is
07:07 < PedersenMJ> Sweet! Using it now.
07:07 < Radix-wrk> I've never created a package myself actually. should play with it sometime
07:07 < Radix-wrk> it doesn't harm the existing setup at all does it
07:08 <@rizen> what do you mean?
07:08 <@rizen> harm what?
07:08 < Radix-wrk> doesn't remove anything
07:08 <@rizen> no
07:08 <@rizen> packages create things
07:08 <@rizen> they don't remove things
07:09 < Radix-wrk> just checking that's all, will try it out on our production site :)
07:09 < Radix-wrk> can you package items that are still under a version tag?
07:11 <@rizen> packages are just assets
07:11 < Radix-wrk> So how do you create one?  I can see browse/import, but no create option
07:11 <@rizen> the meta tab of any asset
07:12 < Radix-wrk> cool, ta
07:13 < Radix-wrk> Last question - when do the demo sites get deleted?  At a scheduled time or when they hit 24 hours duration?
07:14 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1168578456_170/home
07:14 < PedersenMJ> Package works. Now to upload it.
07:14 <@rizen> creation time + 24 hours
07:15 < Radix-wrk> neat - great work
07:15 < Radix-wrk> rizen, cool, good to know :)
07:15 <@rizen> verty good
07:15 < Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, You just need to sort out the div on that login box
07:15 < PedersenMJ> Pretty simple once I got started. Did hit *one* snag with the demo site, though, and that's that style sheet.
07:15 < Radix-wrk> it's almost half way down the page and off the edge on mine
07:16 < Radix-wrk> should prolly just incorporate it under the menu or something
07:16 < PedersenMJ> I had an absolute url for the burned2.css, and needed to move it under the proper location for the demo site.
07:16 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I'll definitely fix that login box issue tomorrow night. Now that I know the rest of the process, it's pretty simple.
07:16 < Radix-wrk> Ahh.. the admin box div is absolute it looks like
07:17 <@rizen> you didn't do it right then
07:17 <@rizen> you should use the ^/;burned2.css
07:17 <@rizen> that way it auto adjusts
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Aha! A macro I didn't yet read/learn about. Will fix *that* right now.
07:19 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I'll fix the login box issue tomorrow night, and have already fixed the url for the css. After that, it looks like I'll be able to post this one to a contrib section.
07:20 < PedersenMJ> This one isn't likely to be very popular, though, as it's more of a dark/broody feeling. The others I've chosen to work on should be much better received.
07:20 <@rizen> you'd be suprised
07:20 < Radix-wrk> hehe
07:20 <@rizen> there are lots of users out there
07:20 < Radix-wrk> I was about to say the same thing
07:20 <@rizen> they all have different needs
07:21 < Radix-wrk> there's many dark/broody people out there who'd "love" that kind of theme I'm sure ;)
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Most likely, now that you two put it that way.
07:22 < PedersenMJ> So, when I *do* get this right, where do I go to do the upload? Don't see any obvious locations at plainblack.com. Or is that the wrong place?
07:23 <@rizen> the contribs section on plainblack.com
07:23 < PedersenMJ> Aha! It's under support. Found it. Only 4 packages in there? That's *got* to be fixed.
07:25 < Radix-wrk> Ahh, neat.. someone made a package based on my google sitemap howto :)
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07:26 < PedersenMJ> I think that, for a while, I'm going to make myself a goal of one new package every two weeks (once I get through these 1st three anyway).
07:26 <@rizen> that would be awesome
07:26 < Radix-wrk> If I get some time spare I'll give you a hand :)
07:27 < PedersenMJ> Cool. Hey, if you'll simply put up with me spamming you guys with my latest theme of the moment, that's a lot of help right there.
07:27 < Radix-wrk> spam away :)
07:28 < PedersenMJ> I'm really enjoying it. It's a fairly easy process to convert existing code into a webgui template, it really is. Just somewhat time consuming to tweak it.
07:28 <@rizen> now we just need another 500 people like you
07:28 < PedersenMJ> But even that can be fun.
07:28 <@rizen> and our community will rock
07:28 < Radix-wrk> yup - hence why we told you to figure it out yourself.. it's not that hard, just fiddly :)
07:29 <@rizen> now you just need to tell the rest of the world how easy it is
07:29 <@rizen> for some reason some people think it's hard
07:29 < PedersenMJ> You did *not* tell me to figure it out myself. You two answered all of my questions quickly, and without giving me a hard time about it.
07:30 <@rizen> damn it
07:30 <@rizen> i meant to give you a hard time
07:30 <@rizen> i tried to
07:30 < PedersenMJ> Well, JT, I'll tell you *why* they think it's hard. 1: Creating a new template isn't well documented. It's documented in WDR, but you have to pay for that. I don't mind paying, but others do.
07:31 <@rizen> yeah well
07:31 < PedersenMJ> 2: What's in WDR does have some errors. I've got the list, and am going to update my bug report for it.
07:31 <@rizen> we're a business
07:31 < Radix-wrk> rizen told you not to pay him to do it, and instead to work it out yourself.  I chimed in that it wasn't that hard, and a good experience
07:31 <@rizen> 2: excellent
07:32 < PedersenMJ> Like I said, I don't mind paying for it. You *are* a business. While it'd be better for my wallet if you weren't, it wouldn't be better for me overall. I'd still be trying to find the right tool for the job.
07:32 <@rizen> 1: i hate that arguement....it's just people being cheap, we're not a charity
07:32 <@rizen> what people don't understand is that webgui is as good as it is because we charge for stuff around webgui...that's what enables us to work on it full time
07:33 <@rizen> unlike a lot of other open source gigs
07:33 < PedersenMJ> Well, Radix, he *did* say he could do it for about $400, and I wanted to learn it for me.
07:33 <@rizen> where the guy is working as his day job and also open source
07:35 < PedersenMJ> Nah, people are inherently cheap. Some programs, that's fine. Others, though... You need somebody doing full time work. WebGUI makes an excellent case for that. And selling access to the docs? I'm *way* okay with that. I wish I could have figured it out without them, but will accept that I'm not a computing god :)
07:35 <@rizen> man...if i could make webgui so intuitive that you didn't need any docs
07:35 <@rizen> i'd love that
07:35 <@rizen> that would be the coolest thing ever
07:36 < PedersenMJ> Except it would completely suck and kill your business.
07:36 < Radix-wrk> Doing custom styles isn't the kind of work that PB staff should be doing though really - if they wrote styles for people all day long they might as well be web designers. ;)
07:36 <@rizen> it wouldn't kill our business at all
07:37 <@rizen> it would improve our business 10 fold
07:37 <@rizen> for one, we wouldn't have to spend the hundreds of hours we do writing/updating docs and videos
07:37 <@rizen> for another, the money we charge on docs
07:37 <@rizen> is just to cover the cost of writing them
07:37 <@rizen> we don't make any money on them
07:38 <@rizen> our money comes from support, hosting, and custom dev
07:38 < PedersenMJ> Heh... Lessee, I've put about 6 hours into the style so far. I expect to only need about 1 to 2 more to fix that login box issue. And this is the first time I've ever done this. I'd expect that PB staff would need much less, like 2 to 3. $125/hour? Sounds about right for consulting.
07:39 < PedersenMJ> Do you guys do actual training classes too? If I manage to make this happen at work, they might be looking to do some training, wherein they get face time with somebody from 6th Ave and somebody from PB. If so, what are ballpark estimates for training?
07:40 <@rizen> yes
07:40 <@rizen> $1600 per day
07:40 <@rizen> which is pretty much industry standard for on-site training
07:40 < PedersenMJ> That's not too bad, really.
07:40 < Radix-wrk> IMHO, the biggest detractor with webgui to a new client/company is the entry requirements - both hardware/software, but also the initial getting started - getting head around templates, doing that initial layout.  If that were easier it'd mean more people would get up to speed quicker and start working on the real nitty gritty, like integration with existing systems, custom wobjects, etc
07:40 <@rizen> and we don't put a limit on number of students
07:40 < Radix-wrk> there's the webgui primer also
07:41 <@rizen> well once PedersenMJ gets done building all these styles
07:41 <@rizen> people won't have to worry about that naymore?
07:41 <@rizen> =)_
07:41 < Radix-wrk> rizen: that's what I was thinking too :)
07:41 <@rizen> actually
07:41 < Radix-wrk> So.. get to work PedersenMJ! :)
07:42 < PedersenMJ> Well, in the next two weeks, there'll be 3, I think. After that, I'll slow down and do 1 every two weeks. Heck, I'll just go to www.oswd.org and pick the next one in line :)
07:42 <@rizen> we're going to be sponsoring a contest in the spring
07:42 <@rizen> for brand new custom styles
07:42 <@rizen> as packages
07:42 < Radix-wrk> neat - that'd be cool
07:43 < PedersenMJ> I'd try to enter, but brand new rules me out. I can convert existing, but my graphics, colors, etc, suck.
07:43 <@rizen> it wouldn't be fair if we let people who take other people's designs into the contest with people who are creating custom works
07:44 < PedersenMJ> I'm not asking to be able to enter, don't worry.
07:44 <@rizen> sorry...i was just explaining...not arguing
07:45 < PedersenMJ> My fun is more in the conversion. I'm not a web dev, not at all. My web site design skills suck ass through a straw :)
07:45 <@rizen> if you do good work though, you'll get plenty of karma
07:45 <@rizen> also...you might even get a people behind webgui nomination
07:45 < PedersenMJ> Nah, no rewards of that sort, please. I'm not doing it for that. I'm doing it for two reasons:
07:45 < PedersenMJ> 1: I can.
07:46 <@rizen> not up to me
07:46 < PedersenMJ> 2: My way of saying thanks for the work you've done, and are doing, that I am directly benefiting from.
07:46 <@rizen> it's up to our community manager
07:46 < PedersenMJ> Hey, just found template number 4, I think: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/3587
07:48 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, I'll throw in what I can. Since this is something I can do, I will do so. And have fun, since I'll get to see a whole slew of neat new designs that I might never find otherwise :)
07:51 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, time for me to head to bed. Will see you guys tomorrow. Have a good night!
07:52 <@rizen> me too
07:52 <@rizen> later
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08:18 <@preaction-m> WUSSES!
08:22 < Radix-wrk> yeah, they are aren't they.. pfft.. it's only 3.24pm
08:22 < Radix-wrk> ;)
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11:37 < pjesi> hi
11:37 < pjesi> does wre hash the mysql username and passwd?
11:51 <+MrHairgrease> not the username
11:52 <+MrHairgrease> the password probaly
11:59 < Radix__> yeah.. password is encoded
12:00 < Radix__> md5-base64 hash
12:01 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
12:01 <+MrHairgrease> the default mysql thinggy
15:05 < pjesi> has the global/master modes on the calendar been removed?
15:13 <+MrHairgrease> dunno
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> i=haven't checked it out yet
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> the calendar has been rwritten
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> by doug i think
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> he's preaction
15:14 < pjesi> I know
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> but I guess he's still sleeping
15:14 <+MrHairgrease> ok
15:15 <+MrHairgrease> anyway
15:15 <+MrHairgrease> ask him
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18:02 < ckotil> Are there any known issues with getting ^Adminbar(); to work when using div's in your template?
18:12 <+MrHairgrease> not that i know of
18:12 <+MrHairgrease> but it could interfere i guess
18:13 < ckotil> yah, this site does some wierd things to accomplish its layout
18:13 < ckotil> and i guess its screwing with the adminbar
18:16 < ckotil> i placed it immediately after the <body> tag. is there anywhere else it could go?
18:18 <+MrHairgrease> everywhere in the body tag i gues
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18:33 < ckotil> head tags ;]
18:33 < ckotil> i was missing them
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> ok
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> good
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> gotta go
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> time for beer =)
18:35 < ckotil> yes, very. later.
18:35 < ckotil> hah nice. 
18:35 < ckotil> lunch?
18:35 < ckotil> its almost noon here.
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> no
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> here it 1730
18:35 < ckotil> ah lucky you
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> i am
18:35 <+MrHairgrease> see ya
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18:55 <@rizen> ooh that felt good
18:56 <@rizen> almost as if i have some sort of super power
18:56 -!- khenn [n=fdillon@66-190-54-175.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #WebGUI
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18:56 <@khenn> your an idiot
18:56 <@khenn> you're
18:57 <@rizen> far worse than that
18:57 <@rizen> you have no idea how bad and useless i am
19:02 <@khenn> no I have an idea
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19:07 <+perlDreamer> good morning
19:07 <@rizen> no really
19:10 <+perlDreamer> uh, bad morning?
19:10 <@rizen> so far, the worst this week
19:10 <+perlDreamer> que pasa?
19:11 <@rizen> unfortunately i can't talk about it because it's all about a former employee
19:12 <+perlDreamer> gotcha
20:14 <@rizen> wahooo!!!
20:14 <@rizen> the day is looking up
20:14 <@rizen> the big dawg just arrived
20:24 <+perlDreamer> productivity at PB comes to a screeching halt as rizen saves the world from terrorists
20:25 <+perlDreamer> and slaughters hordes of undead
20:39 <@khenn> heh
20:53 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
20:54 < PedersenMJ> Guten-something-or-other. Don't speak enough German to finish it right, I'm sure.
20:54 <+perlDreamer> I think it's "morgen"
20:55 < PedersenMJ> For me, it would (I think) be tag, since it's afternoon here.
20:55 <+perlDreamer> where are you located?
20:55 < PedersenMJ> New Jersey.
20:55 < PedersenMJ> Close enough to New York that, most times, we can smell it if we go outside and try.
20:56 <+perlDreamer> I'm over in Portland, Oregon
20:56 < PedersenMJ> Correct, close enough to NYC, not just NY.
20:56 < PedersenMJ> Closer than I am to where I want to be (Alaska)
20:57 < PedersenMJ> Hey, check this out (it's not perfect yet, there's still some minor tweakage to be done): http://www.nochara.org/ My first converted theme for webgui.
20:58 <+perlDreamer> it's very dark, and on old Mozilla your login box hangs over some content
20:59 < PedersenMJ> Actually, the dark is intentional (the site will be for a horror novel I'm writing). The login box is the tweakage issue.
21:02 <+crythias> so, um...
21:02 <+crythias> don't use ^L
21:02 <+crythias> scrape the relevant code from view source and paste it.
21:03 < PedersenMJ> Why should I not use it? I was just going to fix the css, which should be pretty simple.
21:03 <+crythias> or that.
21:03 < PedersenMJ> Just was late last night when I got to this point (having finished the work on the conversion, and learning how to package, etc).
21:04 < ckotil> i like how the template makes me think of endless night.
21:05 < ckotil> the paper reminds me of an early sunrise
21:05 < PedersenMJ> Not sure if there's sarcasm in there or not, actually :)
21:05 < ckotil> i was serious. way back when i thought you designed it ;]
21:05 < PedersenMJ> Well, the theme name is "Burned". If you look at the top of the paper, you can see what looks like burn marks.
21:06  * ckotil nods
21:06 < ckotil> it all makes sense now
21:06 < PedersenMJ> Nope, I'm not a web designer. I'll admit it now: My web design skills suck ass. Through a straw. That has holes in it.
21:06 < ckotil> heh
21:07 < PedersenMJ> However, I've learned most of how to convert an existing design. I've got a few more to go (have found a need to do at least 3 more, maybe as much as half a dozen more), and then I'll slow down to a sane pace of converting. Even going to write something up to help people with it.
21:07 <+perlDreamer> cool!
21:08 < PedersenMJ> Well, the something is more like docs than actual code, but it's a start.
21:08 <+perlDreamer> dude, don't discount documentation
21:08 < PedersenMJ> I don't. I rely on it, heavily. I can read code. I just prefer to read documentation.
21:08 <+perlDreamer> doing docs got me a PBWG nomination, invitation to speak at a conference and it's how I started being a wG dev
21:09 < ckotil> thats how i learned it. by doing it. taking an existing design and makaing it a wg template
21:09 < PedersenMJ> One bit of code I'm going to have to work out, though: How to turn moinmoin wiki into webgui wiki.
21:09 <+perlDreamer> like integrate or convert?
21:10 < PedersenMJ> Convert.
21:10 < ckotil> you can probably make webgui's wiki asset look and feel like moinmoin via the templating system
21:10 < ckotil> moinmoin, everything ivory?
21:10 < ckotil> </ali g>
21:10 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I wanna go the other way. I want to stop using moinmoin.
21:10 < ckotil> id REALLY like to see a mediawiki template for the wikiasset
21:10 < ckotil> hot damn that would that be sweet
21:10 <+perlDreamer> The wG wiki is very similar in structure to the Collaboration System.
21:11 <+perlDreamer> There is a "master" Asset/Wobject/WikiMaster
21:11 <+perlDreamer> and each entry is a WikiPage
21:11 < PedersenMJ> Eh. wiki is amazingly useful. I'm still not happy with any of the UI's I've seen for them, though.
21:12 < ckotil> i agree that wiki's are amazingly useful, i've liked a few of the UI's; media wiki for 1
21:12 < ckotil> wg wikiasset isnt one of them.
21:12 < ckotil> but it works.
21:12 < ckotil> I couldnt get my crew to use it tho
21:12 <+perlDreamer> what would you change about it?
21:12 < ckotil> http://newt.grnoc.iu.edu/webgui
21:12 < ckotil> id make it like media wiki. heh
21:13 < ckotil> which would be  a bi0tch to do through templating.
21:13 < ckotil> like the guy who made the wg template that makes the forums look like phpbb
21:13 <+perlDreamer> that was Steve
21:13 < ckotil> my  hats off to steve
21:13 < ckotil> i like that a lo.
21:13 < ckotil> t
21:14 < PedersenMJ> I haven't even liked mediawiki, normally. wikipedia is one of the best ones, and I might try to turn in that direction, eventually. But even that. This is something that I've not thought a lot about, but I can safely say that every time I've tried them, they've felt wrong in their usage.
21:14 < ckotil> ah, i meant meta-wiki
21:14 < ckotil> media wiki is fine too.
21:14 <@khenn> There appears to be something wrong with the forms API
21:14 < ckotil> meta-wiki = wikipedia
21:15  * PedersenMJ peers at the forms API without using his glasses. Eh, I just don't ken the problem.
21:15 <@khenn> if I do WebGUI::Form::text($session, { name=>"sometext", value=>$self->session->form("sometext") } ) it breaks
21:16 <@khenn> however,
21:16 <@khenn> if I do
21:16 <@khenn> my $sometext = $self->session->form("sometext");
21:16 <@khenn> WebGUI::Form::text($session, { name=>"sometext", value=>$sometext } );
21:16 <@khenn> it works
21:16 <@khenn> wonder if anyone else has seen this
21:16 < ckotil> wierd. looks to be the same thing.
21:16 <@khenn> sure does
21:18 <@khenn> I'm 90% sure it's something I'm doing, but I can't figure it out ...
21:18 <@khenn> annoying
21:18 <@khenn> anyhow
21:18 < ckotil> i dont know much perl. i only dabble
21:18 <@khenn> actually
21:18 <@khenn> what I am doing it slightly different
21:19 <@khenn> in that
21:19 <@khenn> I'm setting
21:19 <@khenn> my $form = $session->form
21:19 <@khenn> er my 
21:19 <@khenn> my $form = $self->session->form;
21:19 <@khenn> so I'm actually doing:
21:19 <@khenn> WebGUI::Form::text($session, { name=>"sometext", value=>$form->get("sometext") } );
21:19 <@khenn> I also forgot to add the get
21:20 <@khenn> above
21:20 <@khenn> eventually it will bug me enough to figure it out
21:22 <+perlDreamer> it's list context vs scalar context
21:23 <@rizen> $self->session->form("sometext") isn't valid
21:23 <@rizen> form is an object
21:23 <@rizen> you need to call a method on it
21:23 <@rizen> $self->session->form->param("sometext")
21:23 <@rizen> for example
21:23 < ckotil> i want to ah
21:24 < ckotil> err... ah.
21:26 -!- perlDreamer is now known as AFK_Dreamer
21:32 <@khenn> yeah I know
21:32 <@khenn> I corrected the syntax the second time
21:32 <@khenn> WebGUI::Form::text($session, { name=>"sometext", value=>$form->get("sometext") } );
21:33 <@khenn> perlDreamer:  not sure what you mean by "it's list context vs scalar context"
21:41 < PedersenMJ> http://perl.plover.com/context.html
21:41 < ckotil> http://perl.plover.com/context.html
21:49 <@khenn> I see.  No, that shouldn't be the problem since $form->get() returns a scalar
21:49 <@khenn> or should
21:49 <@khenn> but that would explain the odd behavior
21:50 <@khenn> if $form->get() was returning a hash for some reason
21:50 <@khenn> or a list
21:50 < ckotil> Im working with a nav asset. http://pastebin.ca/314466 is my template
21:51 < ckotil> its essentially veritcalmenu
21:51 < ckotil> i want to make the first item, the unindented item bold
21:52 < PedersenMJ> This is still beyond me to be of any assistance. I'm barely even a qualified template converter :)
21:53 < ckotil> heh, friggin paste bin not parsing out my <strong></strong> in the description.
21:53 < ckotil> heh
21:53 < PedersenMJ> pastebin looks nice, definitely.
21:54 < PedersenMJ> Hadn't used or seen them before.
21:54 < ckotil> oh, its a crucial tool for getting help in a coding language
21:55 < ckotil> www.postbin.com was slow so i used .ca
22:13 < PedersenMJ>    /me starts singing his "I hate Windows cause it sucks" song.
22:30  * PedersenMJ stops singing it. At least that problem is resolved for now.
22:30 < ckotil> thats a long song
22:31 < PedersenMJ> Windows sucks an awful lot.
22:32 < xdanger> any idea when will 7.3 be stable?
22:33 < xdanger> rizen: ?
22:33 < PedersenMJ> JT said he was hoping for it to be next week sometime last I asked (earlier this week).
22:38 < xdanger> ok... just thinkin my schedule for next week... I'll wait and see if it gets stable and upgrade my 6.8 directly to 7.3.5 =)
22:39 < PedersenMJ> That's all I'm waiting for. Once 7.3 goes stable, I upgrade to it. I really need/want that wiki component in there, and that's appearing in 7.3, too.
22:39 < xdanger> and the new calendar =)
22:40 < ckotil> wiki is in 7.2.3 too
22:50 < PedersenMJ> Thought it wasn't? Or did he add it for that vrev, but not 7.2.2?
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22:53 <+perlDreamer> I wouldn't hold your breath on the new calendar
22:53 <+perlDreamer> it's full of bugs
22:53 <+perlDreamer> although fixing those bugs is required to make 7.3 stable
22:54 <+perlDreamer> so we'll see
22:55 <+perlDreamer> ckotil, on the boards are you grnoc?
22:56 <+perlDreamer> if so, I might be able to help with your templating problem
22:58  * diakopter hears a pin drop
22:58 < ckotil> yes.
22:58 < ckotil> thats me
22:59 <+perlDreamer> do you want the top level or just first item to be bold?
22:59 < ckotil> the first items, those that do not get indented
22:59 < ckotil> i guess thats top level
23:00 <+perlDreamer> try the page.depthIs1 variable
23:00 <+perlDreamer> inside the page loop
23:00 < ckotil> k
23:05 < ckotil> i dont understand how <tmpl_var page.depthIs1> works
23:06 <+perlDreamer> it's a conditional variable, use it inside of an tmpl_if to set up your conditional styling
23:06 < ckotil> i tried to use it with <tmpl_if page.depthIs1> <strong> </tmpl_if> but it crashed it.
23:06 < ckotil> does that look right to you?
23:06 <+perlDreamer> yes
23:06 < ckotil> k ill retry
23:06 <+perlDreamer> what does "crashed it" mean?
23:06 < ckotil> got some funky error
23:06 < ckotil> if i reproduce it ill paste it
23:08 < ckotil> k it must of been a typo. this time it  didnt error. BUT <strong> never gets written out
23:09 < ckotil> http://pastebin.ca/314549
23:10 <@khenn> I know what causes this error:
23:10 <@khenn> The URL setrpp was requested, but does not exist in your asset tree.
23:10 <@khenn> somewhere, there is javascript that looks like this:
23:10 <@khenn> document.form.mything = 'sometext'
23:10 <@khenn> instead of:
23:10 <@khenn> document.form.mything.value = 'sometext';
23:11 <@khenn> FF interprets it wierd and tries to request that thing
23:15 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: is this site live?
23:16 < ckotil> http://newt.grnoc.iu.edu/webgui/iu_noc.html
23:16 < ckotil> on the left side. the nav asset is at the bottom left. the way i want it to act is at the top left
23:18 <+perlDreamer> as far as I can tell, the code for page.isDepth1 looks okay
23:18 <+perlDreamer> can you please try adding a new variable to the page_loop for debug?
23:18 < ckotil> sure
23:18 <+perlDreamer> <tmpl_var page.absDepth>
23:19 < ckotil> ;]
23:19 <+perlDreamer> I'm reloading, I'm guessing that there are no 1's in there?
23:19 < ckotil> lemme commit
23:19 <+perlDreamer> k
23:19 < ckotil> ya, starts at 2
23:20 <+perlDreamer> then, instead of page.depthIs1, try page.relativeDepthIs1
23:20 <+perlDreamer> that will cause the bolding to slide, though
23:21 <+perlDreamer> if you click down into the level 3 pages, then relatively they are level 1 now.
23:21 <+perlDreamer> page.depthIs2 is probably right.
23:22 < ckotil> cool. got it. i set it to relativeDepth0
23:22 <+perlDreamer> be sure to check the behavior as you click around to make sure it does what you want
23:24 <+perlDreamer> JT has also posted to the board on how to make only the first item in a loop bold
23:25 < ckotil> nice.
23:25 < ckotil> i always overlook those page.variables
23:26 <+perlDreamer> well, one long term project I'm working on is a template variable editor for the templates.
23:26 <+perlDreamer> it will help with stuff like this
23:26 <+perlDreamer> but first all the template variables have to be available as code.
23:26 <+perlDreamer> that's the part I'm working on now
23:29 < ckotil> cool
23:30 <+perlDreamer> that's weird
23:30 <+perlDreamer> I didn't think exporting a package would log me out
23:32 <+perlDreamer> stupid browser cache
23:54 < ckotil> i wish there was an ez way to export all the pages as static html
23:54 <+perlDreamer> wget
23:54 < ckotil> lawl
23:54 < ckotil> nice.
23:54 < ckotil> that will work
23:54 < ckotil> ...and then IMPORT  the static pages and create the appropriate assets ;]
23:54  * ckotil creates the rfe
23:54 < ckotil> jk
23:55 <+perlDreamer> Roy's import script from WUC 2006
23:55 <+perlDreamer> :)
23:55 < ckotil> does it really work?
23:55 <+perlDreamer> yeah
23:55 < ckotil> interesting. must the html files be exported from webgui's workflow?
23:55 <+perlDreamer> no
23:55 < ckotil> daaaamn.
23:55 < ckotil> sounds awsome
23:56 <+perlDreamer> well, I don't think they have to
23:56 < ckotil> ill check it out sometime.
23:56 <+perlDreamer> need snap_away to perk up and tell us more about it
23:56 <+perlDreamer> crythias: do you have the wget trick for exporting WebGUI to HTML in your FAQ?
23:57 < ckotil> the site you saw me working on today. i might just export the static html and host the site without the use of webgui. bc the group im creating this for (IUNOC) is not providing me with a box to run wg.
23:58 < ckotil> so i was going to piggy back it on with the GRNOC website.
23:58 < ckotil> and do more mod_rewriting
23:58 < ckotil> IUNOC has plenty of boxes running apache.
23:58 <+perlDreamer> If IU is Indiana University, who is GR?
23:58 < ckotil> global research
23:59 < ckotil> its a group inside of IU
23:59 < ckotil> that manages networks all accross the country & world
23:59 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu check us out
23:59 < ckotil> thats wg baby!
--- Day changed Sat Jan 13 2007
00:00 <+perlDreamer> sweet
00:08 < PedersenMJ> Nice job, ckotil.
00:08 < ckotil> Thanks 
00:16 <@rizen> ckotil webgui has built in capabilities for exporting to static html and they work pretty awesomely
00:16 <@rizen> the us department of state uses it to build over 300 sites and then exports them to static html
00:17 < ckotil> i know this. i tried to export the grnoc site and never could do it.
00:17 < ckotil> ill atempt it again someday when the time comes.
00:18 <@rizen> k
00:18 < ckotil> although i like the idea of using wget
00:18 < ckotil> that seems easy as sin
00:18 <@rizen> wget works just fine
00:18 <@rizen> the advantage of using webgui's export system
00:18 <@rizen> is that you can export chunks at a time
00:18 <@rizen> only when they change
00:18 <@rizen> as part of your commit process
00:19 <@rizen> if you have a really small site
00:19 < ckotil> yah. i tried to enable that in the workflow
00:19 <@rizen> that won't matter
00:19 <@rizen> but on a big site, that makes a huge difference
00:20 <@rizen> perlDreamer: the big dawg is pretty awesome so far
00:21 <@rizen> i can run Half Life 2 at 1600 x 1050 (highest res my monitor supports) at 60 frames per second, with every bit of reflection and other details turned on
00:21 <@rizen> and that's only using 25% of my cpu
00:21 < ckotil> wikd
00:28 < ckotil> have a good weekend.
00:28 < ckotil> and no work monday!! w00t
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00:39 <+perlDreamer> grr. government employee
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04:47 < PedersenMJ> Good evening (for me, it's evening, anyway, 9:45). How's everybody?
05:03 < Radix__> Afternoon :)
05:08 < PedersenMJ> How goes it?
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06:42 < PedersenMJ> Okay, need to ask a favor of everybody: Would you check out http://www.nochara.org/ and tell me if the login box now looks right for you?
06:48 < PedersenMJ> Dammit. Now it's broken in IE. This, right here, is why I'm not a web designer. I have zero patience for it.
06:51 <+perlDreamer> FF on FC6, Login box looks fine
06:51 <+perlDreamer> you might want to have a look at some of the default WebGUI styles for hints on cross-browser problems
06:51 < PedersenMJ> Yep, FF on Debian. Looks great. IE on Win? A whole chunk is slid a bit to the left.
06:52 < PedersenMJ> I hate Windows with a passion normally reserved for teenage boys getting blowjobs from pornstars.
06:56 <+perlDreamer> I prefer the prostate examination analogy myself
06:57 -!- Radix__ [n=Radix@203.161.71.161.static.amnet.net.au] has quit ["Windows doesn't have users, it has hostages."]
06:57 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I think that a prostate exam from a proctologist with callused fingers, no gloves, and a history of contagious diseases, might be better.
07:00 <+perlDreamer> cattle prod
07:01 < PedersenMJ> Taser. Only, he misses, and goes a coupla inches lower.
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Okay, looks like I got that straightened out finally. I still hate Windows, but can beat it into submission (sometimes).
07:23 < PedersenMJ> Weird... When I visit the contributions/packages section, the one I just uploaded is marked as approved, but no other is. Why would that be?
07:30 <+perlDreamer> I don't know
07:30 <+perlDreamer> My contributions get marked that way, too
07:35 < PedersenMJ> Weird. Oh well. I've got the first theme done (unless people tell me problems that need fixing, anyway), and will be on to my second after this weekend. Gotta deal with moving this weekend, though, so no time for wg then.
08:09 -!- Radix__ [n=Radix@203.161.71.161.static.amnet.net.au] has joined #webgui
08:10 <+perlDreamer> y'all keep weird hours, dude
08:11 < Radix__> Hmm?
08:11 < Radix__> it's only 3pm here
08:11 <+perlDreamer> ah.
08:12 <+perlDreamer> In Oregon, it's 10:10pm
08:12 < Radix__> obviously I'm not in Oregon :)
08:12 <+perlDreamer> Let's see, 7 hours ahead.
08:12 <+perlDreamer> Australia, Japan, Indonesia?
08:13 < Radix__> Perth, Western Australia
08:14 < Radix__> I was the aussie at the WUC last year :)
08:14 <+perlDreamer> Did you attend the dev track?
08:15 < Radix__> mostly
08:16 <+perlDreamer> me, too
08:17 < PedersenMJ> Okay, obnoxious question time, Radix: Here in good old USA, there were tons of stories about how the Aussies felt about Steve Irwin when he died. Quite a few of them were of the variety that the Aussies felt he was a mostly useless gloryhound type of person. So, since I now know an Aussie to ask, I'm asking: What was the real (general) feeling about him?
08:17 < Radix__> yup, I saw u there :)
08:17 <+perlDreamer> I hope so, I gave one of the talks
08:18 < Radix__> Steve Irwin wasn't really an Australian celebrity - by that I mean he wasn't really very big in Australia itself, and was definitely bigger in the US.  Because of that though we know who he is, most people don't care so much.
08:19 < PedersenMJ> Thank you. It's nice to get an actual answer, rather than the crap that the media over here gives us.
08:19 < Radix__> that said.. I think he did well personally.. he played the "oka" aussie pretty well, and was definitely a larger than life person and loved what he did.
08:20 <+perlDreamer> good night, all
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08:20 < Radix__> I've heard more about Bindi since he died than I ever heard about Irwin, and she's going to achieve a lot I reckon
08:20 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and if it matters, I knew who he was, thought he was actually kind of amazing with his ability to handle animals without getting killed, and was sad when he passed away. Aside from that, not much about him.
08:21 < PedersenMJ> Strictly a cultural curiousity question from me :)
08:21 < Radix__> no worries
08:22 < PedersenMJ> So, anyway, I uploaded the Burned theme into the contrib section. Looks like I fixed that little annoyance with the login box finally.
08:22 < Radix__> cool.. well done! :)
08:23 < PedersenMJ> Well, I'm sure there's issues, but I don't know how to find them myself. So, I'll let people try it out, and learn what I can from it.
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08:25 < Radix__> You tested it out on the demo site?
08:27 < PedersenMJ> Doh! Technically, no. Just on mine. Will have to test it out real quick.
08:27 < Radix__> thats really the best place to test it out :)
08:31 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1168669718_960/home
08:31 < PedersenMJ> Yep, I'd say it looks like it works :)
08:31 < Radix__> yup, works for me
08:32 < Radix__> Good stuff
08:33 < PedersenMJ> Now, moving this weekend, so I won't be onto my next theme until Monday or so, but that should be pretty easy, overall. I should be able to get up to 3 or 4 contributed within the next two weeks. Which I'm happy about.
08:45 < PedersenMJ> Now, bedtime. nearly 2am here.
08:45 < PedersenMJ> Will chat soon. Dunno if I make it back to this chan this weekend, but will try.
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18:07 < iPhoneGuy> hi
18:09 < iPhoneGuy> I tried to import the php-bb.wgpkg but it doesn't show up... Webgui.log says: Could not set uid/gid on "image path goes here"
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18:52  * PedersenMJ is now eager to see the next rev of wg released, so that I can install it :)
18:53 < iPhoneGuy> so that he can install it :)
18:54 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. I have some sites that I want to use it, and want to have the latest/greatest for it.
18:55 < PedersenMJ> I just finished the theme for the first one, too.
18:55 < iPhoneGuy> the burned theme :)
18:56 < PedersenMJ> Yes.
18:56 < PedersenMJ> Gonna be doing another three or four, it looks like, too.
18:57 < PedersenMJ> Mind you, that's just right away. That's for sites where *I* need them. But I'm planning on converting more of them afterwards. Current plan is about one/week.
18:58 < PedersenMJ> erm, 1/2 weeks.
18:58 < PedersenMJ> 1 per 2 weeks.
18:58 < iPhoneGuy> cool
18:58 < iPhoneGuy> :D
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19:54 < iPhoneGuy> hello anyone can help? :(
19:54 < iPhoneGuy> I tried to import the php-bb.wgpkg but it doesn't show up... Webgui.log says: Could not set uid/gid on "image path goes here"
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20:14 < iPhoneGuy> hello?
20:16 <@rizen> sorry iPhone guy
20:16 <@rizen> i don't provide support on here
20:16 <@rizen> we just use this to chat about new ideas
20:16 < iPhoneGuy> :(
20:16 <@rizen> some people do help out with support on here though
20:17 <@rizen> so maybe someone will log on and help you
20:17 < iPhoneGuy> The strange thing is that I imported the same package successfully a month ago
20:25 <+MrHairgrease> rizen
20:25 <@rizen> MrHairGrease
20:25 <+MrHairgrease> i made a item plugin that dynamically creates items as people put them in their shoppingcart
20:26 <@rizen> very cool
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> however in wg::commerce::shopingcart::add
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> the itemId is not queried from the item plugin
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> which makes this impossible
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> fix is
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> add 
20:26 <+MrHairgrease> adding one line
20:27 <+MrHairgrease> won't break existing plugins
20:27 < iPhoneGuy> isn't Commerce being rewritten anyway?
20:27 <@rizen> not really rewritten so much as refactored
20:27 <@rizen> but yeah, go ahead and add it
20:28 <@rizen> feel free to commit your dynamic item in 7.4 once branched as well
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> http://rafb.net/p/IXwBk521.html
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> it's line 83 
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> that should be added
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> oh ok
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> i might add it
20:28 <+MrHairgrease> but we wanna test it first
20:29 <@rizen> sure
20:29 <+MrHairgrease> it's iomplemented a bit dodgy
20:29 <+MrHairgrease> i'll send you a copy
20:29 < iPhoneGuy> any chances to get the Assets view to be displayed soon in Safari? :)
20:29 <+MrHairgrease> so you can check it out
20:29 <@rizen> that kind of functionality is one of the things that's missing from the commerce system
20:29 <@rizen> that makes  me want to refactor
20:29 <+MrHairgrease> sure
20:29 <+MrHairgrease> it's not that it isn't perfect =)
20:30 <+MrHairgrease> it's just too complicated
20:30 <+MrHairgrease> but thanks anyway
20:30 <@rizen> the whole commerce system is way too complicated
20:30 <+MrHairgrease> gotta go cooking
20:30 <@rizen> ok
20:30 <@rizen> have fun
20:30 <+MrHairgrease> hope i keep my fingers attached =)
20:30 < iPhoneGuy> lol
20:30 <+MrHairgrease> later
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20:31 <@rizen> safari: it' isn't up to us
20:31 <@rizen> it requires apple to release a new version of safari
20:31 <@rizen> their javascript implementation is flawwed
20:31 <@rizen> it's fixed in their code repository
20:31 <@rizen> and the nightly builds of web kit
20:31 <@rizen> so they just need to put out a new version of safari
20:31 <@rizen> and it will start working automatically
20:32 < iPhoneGuy> but couldn't you use YUI to fix that in the actual version of Safari?
20:32 <@rizen> are you seriously asking me to fix safari
20:32 < iPhoneGuy> nope :D I mean in WebGUI
20:33 <@rizen> right
20:33 <@rizen> you're asking me to work around safari's faults
20:33 < iPhoneGuy> if you use YUI to display the filesystem-ish Assets view
20:33 <@rizen> safari is  used by less than 1% of the browsing public
20:33 <@rizen> i've got better things to do
20:33 < iPhoneGuy> It has 4 per cent global market share
20:33 < iPhoneGuy> and that is gonna improve dramatically when iPhone is released :D
20:34 <@rizen> stop arguing
20:34 <@rizen> god damn dude
20:34 <@rizen> all you do is come on here and argue with me
20:34 <@rizen> i said no
20:34 < iPhoneGuy> They're facts
20:34 <@rizen> once i say no
20:34 <@rizen> that's it
20:34 <@rizen> don
20:34 < iPhoneGuy> Fine
20:34 <@rizen> conversation over
20:35 < iPhoneGuy> It's just because I read that on your roadmap (replacing all of the existing WebGUI JS with YUI)
20:35 < iPhoneGuy> so...
20:39 < iPhoneGuy> Ok it works with the latest WebKit.. Thanks for the tip
20:40 < iPhoneGuy> But the rich editor is not enabled in Safari and in WebKit... TinyMce now works with the latest WebKit. Could you enable it in 7.3.5?
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20:41 < iPhoneGuy> Woha that guy is really cool lol
21:33 < xdanger> that guy wrote most of webgui, and runs plainblack, so... I'd say he is cool ;)
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22:03 < iPhoneGuy> Then he's not cool on IRC
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01:57 < PedersenMJ> Just caught up, only here for a few (dinner shortly). That iPG character is an ass.
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02:48 < xdanger> yup
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04:18  * PedersenMJ wavies.
04:34  * Radix__ surfs PedersenMJ's wavies.
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05:41  * PedersenMJ puts together a webgui instance on his laptop. Best way to do any sort of working on a theme/etc.
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Plus, will make writing that novel of mine easier. Write up a chapter, make a package, install the package.
06:09 < PedersenMJ> I wonder... I wonder if rizen and co would be upset if I made a different webgui package, one that made installing from source easier. Basically, include all the pre-reqs as dependencies, to allow easier use/install on Debian.
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Looks like I'd *also* have to set up an apt repository, which wouldn't be a bad thing, really.
06:59 < PedersenMJ> Finally done!
06:59 < PedersenMJ> Took me an hour, but that also involved learning proper procedure to make perl packages for debian.
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17:16 < PedersenMJ> g'morning
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> hi
17:16 < PedersenMJ> how's it going?
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> ok
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> I'm migriting sites between servers
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> and switching one server to the wre
17:17 <+MrHairgrease> oh
17:17 <+MrHairgrease> and elvis is on
17:17 <+MrHairgrease> so it must be good =)
17:18 < PedersenMJ> Cool. I think I've found the way I'm going to go. For me, the wre isn't a very good option. I've got a bunch of sites which are more diverse than just webgui. So, I'm going to make a Debian webgui package, and publish that somewhere.
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> cool
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> In this particular setup
17:19 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but I had to learn how to make Debian perl packages. That wasn't too much fun. Turns out it was easy, but still not something I'd like to do.
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> I'm running webgui and legacy sites at the same time
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> the legacy stuff is php
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> so i use the apache/php of ubuntu server
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> but on port 82
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> mod-proxy from the wre should do the dispatching\
17:24 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I did see that, but it's not quite what I want. Simply put, I prefer the packaging of Apache/etc that is done by my distro.
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> ok
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> i understand
17:26 < PedersenMJ> So, I'm going to try and merge the two, a bit. Get the configuration from wre, but get the packaging from upstream.
17:26 <+MrHairgrease> that would rok
17:26 <+MrHairgrease> rock*
17:27 < PedersenMJ> And now comes the fun part: I gotta set aside enough space to make sure that vmware will have enough space for what I'm going to build :)
17:27 <+MrHairgrease> heh
17:29 < PedersenMJ> Best way to go about it, really: Build a basic image that does nearly nothing, and then use that as a base for testing out packaging/installs.
17:40 < PedersenMJ> BTW, I highly recommend doing this. Use vmware. Heck, you can even use vmware server, which is free, as a safe development sandbox. It's one of the biggest advantages to it.
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20:23 < iPhoneGuy> hi
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01:12 <@snapcount> preaction-m are you around?
01:16 <@snapcount> preaction_
01:16 <@snapcount> how many freaking clones do you have 
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03:10 <+perlDreamer> snap_eats
03:10 <+perlDreamer> that's funny
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06:19 <@rizen> i started building a wre on osx-intel tody
06:19 <@rizen> today
06:20 <@rizen> got past the openssl no-compile bug
06:20 <@rizen> but now am stuck compiling mod_ssl
06:20 <@rizen> i should be able to get past it...just have to do a little research
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06:24 <@snapcount> how the hell man
06:24  * PedersenMJ waves hello.
06:24 <@snapcount> openssl must have fixed whatever the problem was
06:24 <@rizen> nope
06:25 <@rizen> i can do it with any version of openssl
06:25 <@rizen> it's acutally a problem with the apple tools
06:25 <@rizen> you have to modify a couple of make files to work around it
06:26 <@snapcount> it scares me sometimes how you figure crap like this out
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06:32 < PedersenMJ> Hey, rizen, question for you: I'm pondering making a webgui package for Debian which is *not* WRE. It's a set of config files, dependencies, and scripts that will make the installation of WebGUI under Debian into something relatively painless. And I'm wondering how pissed off it's going to make you if I do it.
06:32 <@rizen> couldn't care less
06:33 <@rizen> if it makes you happy, and makes it easier for debian users, great
06:33 < Radix-wrk> hardest part will not be building the package, but keeping it uptodate
06:33 <@rizen> the only way i'll get pissed is if you ask plain black to support it
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Cool. You're right, Radix, definitely. That *will* be the hard part. But it should be a bearable part, as long as I limit myself to dealing with the latest stable release.
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Wouldn't ask plain black to support it. Some users might go to you guys and ask for it, but I won't direct them there.
06:35 < PedersenMJ> I'll freely admit that I'm planning on copying the config files you put into WRE. Any issues with that?
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06:35 <@rizen> as long as you comply with the gpl, i don't care
06:35 <@rizen> we release all of our configs and software as gpl
06:36 < PedersenMJ> No problems there. I happen to agree with the gpl, and prefer it for nearly everything, so we're good there.
06:37 <@rizen> i'm not a big gpl freak
06:37 <@rizen> the reason i like it is that i don't want other people making money off of my hard work
06:37 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. Sorry for these questions, but one thing I'm *not* interested in doing is annoying the company that makes a product I like this much.
06:37 <@rizen> np
06:37 <@rizen> glad you asked
06:39 < PedersenMJ> Who knows, with a lotta luck, it might turn into the way you tell people who insist on using Debian to go. Probably not, I'll admit, but it'll be a little dream of mine :)
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06:39 <@rizen> don't hold your breath on that one
06:39 <@rizen> the WRE has every advantage except one over debian packages, rpms, or anything else for that matter
06:40 <@rizen> the only advantage that the native packages have is native patches for apache, et al
06:40 <@rizen> other than that the wre wins for everything
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay. That's one of the two reasons I'm looking at doing the native packaging.
06:41 <@rizen> what's the other?
06:41 < PedersenMJ> The other one: I do several varied web sites, and host them under my own web server. Some of them have nothing to do with webgui, and never will.
06:42 < PedersenMJ> I want them all under one Apache process, period. I don't want to set up a secondary Apache and proxy to that.
06:42 <@rizen> are these static websites or php or something else?
06:42 < PedersenMJ> Actually, one of the biggies for me is the use of Request Tracker.
06:42 <@rizen> RT is modperl and will run quite fine under the wre
06:43 < PedersenMJ> http://www.bestpractical.com/
06:43 <@rizen> yeah i know, i've used it many times
06:43 < PedersenMJ> Okay, was already almost done typing that, sorry.
06:43 <@rizen> actually, rt will likely run better under wre than your native debian packages
06:43 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, RT, some php sites (though I'm trying my best to avoid them, and replace them when I have them).
06:44 <@rizen> mainly cuz wre is optimized for modperl
06:44 <@rizen> not that you'd want to, but you can quite easily compile php under the wre...i've done it before for several clients
06:44 <@rizen> then you run your php apps under the modproxy instance
06:45 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... I might have to re-evaluate. Will have to apt-get source on wre sometime, before I launch into my own native packaging. Might be wasting my time with even the thought.
06:47 <@rizen> i was thinking about adding a chapter to the new admin guide on how to compile php for the wre
06:47 <@rizen> but i'm not sure i want to promote that
06:48 < PedersenMJ> I don't see why you would.
06:48 <@rizen> the reason for it is the same thing you just hit me with
06:48 <@rizen> which is, i love webgui...but i don't use the wre cuz i have some other apps
06:48 <@rizen> i want to encourage the use of the wre
06:48 < PedersenMJ> php has enough issues. Perl has it's own, to be sure (no language is perfect, after all), but bringing php into the mix is nearly always a disaster.
06:48 <@rizen> cuz it helps make support easier
06:51 <@rizen> from now on when iPhoneGuy comes on here...need you guys to run interference for me
06:52 < PedersenMJ> Does pointing and laughing count as running interference?
06:53 <@rizen> doesn't matter as long as i don't have to respond to him
06:53 <@rizen> he puts me in a bad mood and then i'm not able to work
06:53 -!- snapcount is now known as iPhoneGuy
06:53 <@iPhoneGuy> rizen
06:53 <@iPhoneGuy> he rizen
06:53 <@iPhoneGuy> hey rizen... hey rizen
06:53 <@rizen> whatever snapcount
06:53 <@iPhoneGuy> =D
06:53  * PedersenMJ just points and laughs at snapcount/iPG.
06:53 -!- iPhoneGuy is now known as snapcount
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06:54 <@rizen> now that was funny
06:54 <@snapcount> no no
06:54  * rizen rofl
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06:54 <@snapcount> that was funny
07:01 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, should (hopefully) be able to get back to work on themes tomorrow. Just moved into new home today. Stiff as a board, too.
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07:03 <+perlDreamer> snapcount:  I got inspired by your bug and found 2 more like it.
07:03 <+perlDreamer> I can't believe we're still doing session work
07:04 <@rizen> radix, i enabled SLI support on the new big dawg and got the frame rate on half life 2 up to 120
07:04 <@rizen> with full rez everything
07:05 < Radix-wrk> Cool
07:06 <@rizen> you said you're getting a new rig soon, right?
07:06 < Radix-wrk> nah, I'm pretty happy with my laptop atm
07:06 <@rizen> hmmm...i thought it was you getting the new one...sorry my mistake
07:07 < Radix-wrk> My laptop is a nice one for gaming - Dell XPS m1710 laptop - 2.16Ghz core duo, 512mb geforce 7800gtx, 7200rpm drive
07:07 < Radix-wrk> not to mention the 1920x1200 screen
07:08 <@rizen> that is pretty nice
07:08 < Radix-wrk> we get laptops tax free in aust. too, so saved a bundle switching to a laptop instead of getting a desktop :)
07:09 <@rizen> nice
07:09 < Radix-wrk> I've been playing Rise of Legends lately.. quite fun
07:09 <@rizen> i should move to oz
07:09 <@rizen> i went down there for a couple weeks a few years back
07:09 <@rizen> i can't wait to go back
07:09 < Radix-wrk> Where'd you go?
07:09 < Radix-wrk> Au is a big place ;)
07:10 <@rizen> sydney and the surrounding area
07:10 < Radix-wrk> okey.. yeah, sydney's not bad
07:10 < Radix-wrk> Perth's the best tho - but I'm biased ;)
07:11 <@rizen> i think we had this coversation at the wuc
07:11 < Radix-wrk> hehe.. prolly
07:11 <@rizen> ii said i was going to brisbane the next time i go back
07:11 <@rizen> and you said, nah i should go to perth
07:11 <@rizen> =0
07:11 < Radix-wrk> lol
07:11 < Radix-wrk> Well we know I'm right
07:11 < Radix-wrk> ;)
07:12 <@rizen> you're probably right
07:12 <@rizen> but if you're wrong, at least now i have someone to blame
07:12 < Radix-wrk> heh
07:16 < PedersenMJ> g'night guys. Sorry, too wiped after my move. Will chat manana.
07:16 < Radix-wrk> nite PedersenMJ
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07:18 < Radix-wrk> reading back: I'd definitely be interested in a step-by-step guide on how to compile php for the wre.  It was mentioned at the wuc in the wre talk, but no specifics were given that I recall.
07:19 <@rizen> here's how it works
07:19 <@rizen> rm -Rf /path/to/php/apps
07:20 <+perlDreamer> sudo rm -Rf /path/to/php/apps
07:21 < Radix-wrk> next you're going to tell me to ftp 127.0.0.1 and download all the stuff I want
07:21 <+perlDreamer> no
07:21 <+perlDreamer> ftp uses plaintext passwords
07:21 <+perlDreamer> try scp instead
07:21 < Radix-wrk> sftp
07:22 <@rizen> whoa!!!! tony just killed ralphy
07:22 < Radix-wrk> ?
07:23 <+perlDreamer> sopranos, the tv show?
07:23 <@rizen> oh...sorry. i'm watching sopranos
07:23 <@rizen> bought the first 6 seasons on dvd
07:23 < Radix-wrk> heh.. enjoy then
07:24 <@rizen>  
07:24 <@rizen> i think i should take the next week or two off and watch the sopranos
07:24 <@rizen> =)
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16:16 < PedersenMJ> I have discovered lovely new worlds of pain, and have found an incredibly compelling reason to pay people to move me the next time I move.
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18:37 <@khenn> morning peeps
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> i
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> hi
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> have you seen this
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> http://getfirebug.org
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> getfirebug.com
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18:40 <@preaction-m> firebug rules, btw
18:40 <+MrHairgrease> it seems so
18:41 <+MrHairgrease> i stumbled on it a minute ago
18:43 <+MrHairgrease> is there also a way of editing javascript with firebug?
18:44 <@preaction-m> probably not, but you can run single commands in the context of the page
18:44 <+MrHairgrease> that's a pity
18:44 <+MrHairgrease> well
18:44 <+MrHairgrease> i gues it still is cool software though
18:44 <@preaction-m> it might be smart enough to know that function() { is the start of a block and wait to execute until the block is closed
18:45 <@preaction-m> kind of like the Lisp interpreter
18:45 <+MrHairgrease> maybe
18:45 <+MrHairgrease> but i dion't think i need that
18:46 <+MrHairgrease> it's more that i want to wdebug and fix j at the same time without having to switch apps
18:47 <@preaction-m> improbable, how could it know what protocol to use to get/set the file? but then the WebDev's CSS editor lets you edit/save
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> when i'm finished i'll just copy paste
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> =)
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> i use the css editor of the webdev topolbar that way
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> edit in firefox
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> copy paste to some snippet when finnished
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> finished*
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19:37 < PedersenMJ> Hey guys. How goes?
19:38 <@preaction-m> feel fine.
19:38 <@preaction-m> yourselves?
19:38 < PedersenMJ> Me? Miserable. Back pain bad. Best thing is to be asleep. Okay aside from that :)
19:39 <@preaction-m> get a better chair?
19:39 <@preaction-m> or a cute, petite, Asian girl for shiatsu massage action!
19:39 <@preaction-m> no happy ending
19:39 < PedersenMJ> Wasn't a chair, was the moving we did over the weekend. *WAY* over did it.
19:39 < PedersenMJ> However, the shiatsu... That could be good, definitely.
19:40 <@preaction-m> i dunno, they had me at cute asian girl
19:42 < PedersenMJ> Asian doesn't really do much for me (I know, sacrilege to say so, but it's true). Now, make it a cute redhead with the most beautiful green eyes, and it doesn't matter what she's doing to me, as long as it's *something*.
19:42 <@preaction-m> ok, fine, they had me at cute girl... :p
19:43 < PedersenMJ> That works, definitely.
19:43 <@preaction-m> i don't know if i can explain "I'm feeling very relaxed, I'm sorry" to a fit, toned, well-muscled guy
19:45 < PedersenMJ> That's just a disturbing mental image, personally.
19:47 <@preaction-m> yes, I'm not afraid to Go There
19:52 <@preaction-m> also, virtualization is quite possibly the coolest thing evar, if they do not make it the worst thing evar by implementing Treacherous Computing
19:52 <@preaction-m> parallels++
19:52 <@preaction-m> perlbot karma rizen
19:52 < perlbot> rizen doesn't have any karma
19:55 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, virtualization does look like it will be a life saver in many many ways. Related to that, I'm pondering buying a new laptop in the next 6 months to year, and am highly debating whether or not to get a Mac. I still won't get everything I'm looking for (which is the ability to have a separate dev environment for the Mac under virtualization), so am really not sure.
19:55 <@preaction-m> get a macbook pro, this is the only laptop i've had that hasn't sucked
19:55 <@preaction-m> and parallels owns, i've got ubuntu and winxp running virtually
19:56 <@preaction-m> i've got a samba server inside my virtual ubuntu serving files to my network
19:56 < PedersenMJ> Yep. But how do you test what you've developed on a *clean* install of OSX?
19:58 <@preaction-m> parallels one? lemme see if it has an option for it
19:59 < PedersenMJ> I was under the impression that you would not be able to install OSX inside of a parallels vm.
20:15 <@preaction-m> parallels doesn't have an option for it :(
20:16 < PedersenMJ> I'm not surprised: OSX on x86 has a TPM module. In theory, this should make it impossible to install OSX without it. And since Parallels can't implement a TPM in software that will have the same keys that the hardware does, it shouldn't work.
20:17 <+perlDreamer> I hate hardware lockout
20:18 <@preaction-m> microsoft would've pitched a bitch without it, and when you control the hardware, you don't have to make software that will run anywhere
20:19 <@preaction-m> so you don't have to make a driver for that weird little video card that accidentally swaps the highbit and lowbit because it's a douche, but was so cheap that everyone bought one
20:20 < PedersenMJ> That's one of the reasons I don't want a Mac. The reasons that I *am* interested, though... Having all the rest of the UI (which, I admit, seems nice), having one laptop that runs all OSes I could ask. It's actually a tough choice.
20:20 <+perlDreamer> preaction-m: do you mean apple instead of microsoft
20:21 <@khenn> 1 hour of snow shoveling is good exercise
20:21 <+perlDreamer> yes it is
20:21 < PedersenMJ> So is 6 hours of moving, khenn. I don't recommend it, though :)
20:21 <@khenn> 6?
20:21 <@khenn> my last move was 20ish hours
20:21 <@khenn> heh
20:21 <@khenn> last April
20:21 <@preaction-m> no, if apple made an OS that ran on any hardware it would be a major blow to MS's market share. $150 to use Mac OS instead of buying a new computer with it?
20:21 <@khenn> 2 10 hour days of packing / unpacking a U-Haul
20:22 <@khenn> I odn't recommend that
20:22 < PedersenMJ> Nope, I don't either.
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20:22 < PedersenMJ> Okay, who forgot to change their nick to iPhoneGuy before JT signed in?
20:23 <@preaction-m> oh snap
20:23 -!- preaction-m_ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
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20:24 <@preaction-m> somehow i don't think i thought my plan all the way through
20:24 < PedersenMJ> That's okay. If I thought my plans all the way through, I'd make the "Thinker" statue look alive.
20:29 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
20:30  * PedersenMJ checks... Nope, I used my deodorant today.
20:34 <@khenn> heh
20:35  * preaction-m has emote power!
20:35 <@preaction-m> it's /me does something
20:36 <@preaction-m> khenn->isa("IRC::Newb");
20:36 <+perlDreamer> Unquoted string "khenn" may clash with future reserved word
20:38 <@preaction-m> use khenn qw( gently notSoGently ); # happy now?
20:38 <+perlDreamer> I don't think you can use a class method in an isa relationship
20:39 <+perlDreamer> I was thinking $khenn
20:41  * snapcount speaks... hears trumpets sound in the distance
20:42 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but the voice sounds like a recording on five million year old tape.
20:51 <@khenn> ISA is also deprecated
20:51 <@khenn> use base 'IRC::News';
20:51  * khenn slaps preaction-m
20:52 <@preaction-m> $object->isa; # Check to see if this object Is A instance of a package or the child of that package
20:52 <+perlDreamer> you used a class method, not an object
20:52 <@preaction-m> not deprecated :p
20:52 <@preaction-m> yes, i did, sue me
20:53 <+perlDreamer> No need to sue.  We'll just wait for the bug reports
20:53 <@preaction-m> no, sue me, please, just anything but that!
20:53 <+perlDreamer> I hear ya, preaction*
20:56 <+perlDreamer> enRFE-ing is much more fun than debugging
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21:07 < iPhoneGuy> hi
21:07 <@preaction-m> hihi! you come buying? you can sell too!
21:07 <+perlDreamer> howdy
21:08 <@preaction-m> 1000 preaction points for whoever gets that reference
21:08 < iPhoneGuy> it would be possible to enable TinyMCE in Safari/WebKit in the next version of WebGUI?
21:08 < PedersenMJ> gotta be an ebay thing.
21:08 < iPhoneGuy> since the latest WebKit supports it
21:08 <@preaction-m> sounds like an excellent RFE
21:08 <+perlDreamer> it does
21:08 <+perlDreamer> several uses have asked for this
21:09 < PedersenMJ> There's no such thing as impossible, iPG. Yes, that includes faster than light travel. You just have to figure out how to do it.
21:09 <+perlDreamer> it would be easy to get karma from them to bolster it.
21:09 <@preaction-m> i'm all for anything that makes webgui more ubiqutous
21:09 <@preaction-m> qui? quitous? crap
21:10 < iPhoneGuy> ramping up an RFE from the bottom is no easy task.. Instead this thing shouldn't be really easy to do? Just to enable it...
21:10 <+perlDreamer> does perlbot have a speller?
21:10 <+perlDreamer> iPhoneGuy, all things go through the RFE list for community action
21:10 <@preaction-m> perlbot 8ball Do you have a spell-check function?
21:10 < perlbot> Magic 8ball says: You never know
21:10 < PedersenMJ> iPhoneGuy: Everything is easy when you know how. So, go ahead and show us how easy it is to do, and submit a patch.
21:11 <@preaction-m> it might be as simple as updating the tinymce that comes with webgui
21:11 <+perlDreamer> iPhoneGuy: just read this: http://www.plainblack.com/community-wiki/how-to-add-a-feature-to-webgui-core
21:11 < iPhoneGuy> I don't know where that thing is implemented in WebGUI. But for you developers, it should be pretty easy I guess.
21:11 <@preaction-m> tinyMCE is in WebGUI/www/extras/tinymce
21:11 < PedersenMJ> Did I *say* I was a developer?
21:12 < PedersenMJ> I'm a developer, but know nothing about webgui except how to make a theme (and my knowledge is far from rock solid on that point).
21:12 < iPhoneGuy> "you" in general
21:12 < iPhoneGuy> ok lemme check if I find that out... Probably the activation triggers are in that folder? Or maybe they are in the WebGUI core?
21:12 <@preaction-m> whoa. hostility-sense tingling!
21:13 < PedersenMJ> I'm not being general, though, I'm being specific: You've already asserted that it's easy for a developer. Find one, hire him, and get him to make the change. Or work towards getting the RFE onto the front page.
21:13 <@preaction-m> all the JS are in that folder
21:13 <@preaction-m> the triggers are in the webgui core, because webgui allows you to customize how tinymce is triggered
21:13 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: even if you hire a dev to hack for you it doesn't guarantee it getting into the core
21:13 < iPhoneGuy> if you want to flame go somewhere else pedersen
21:13 <+perlDreamer> although code does talk strongly
21:14 < iPhoneGuy> ok preaction, that's what I was talking about. So my guess is true
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21:14 < iPhoneGuy> and do you know where specifically in the core?
21:14 <+perlDreamer> btw, does wG have a method to safely encode strings for javascript use?
21:14 <@preaction-m> iPhoneGuy: i'm checking now
21:14 < iPhoneGuy> thanks :)
21:14 < PedersenMJ> You are correct. There are no guarantees about what happens and when. However, from what I've seen of plainblack, if a working patch were submitted, and shown to be thoroughly  tested against the latest CVS, and it answered an open RFE from multiple users, it would likely be included (not guaranteed, but likely).
21:15 <@preaction-m> perlDreamer: sounds like a macro, if there isn't one there shuould be
21:16 <@preaction-m> iPhoneGuy: you'll probably want to check out WebGUI::Asset::RichEdit
21:17 <@preaction-m> so, WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/RichEdit.pm
21:17 < iPhoneGuy> thanks will do right now
21:17 <@preaction-m> the WebGUI::Form::HTMLArea is the main way to instanciate it, but that is what uses WebGUI::Asset::RichEdit
21:18 < iPhoneGuy> found it
21:18 <+perlDreamer> line 460
21:18 < iPhoneGuy> 434 here :)
21:18 <+perlDreamer> always work off head
21:19 <+perlDreamer> svn co https://svn.webgui.org/svnroot/WebGUI
21:19 <@preaction-m> add a "WebGUI_SVN" to the end to not wipe-out your current WebGUI
21:19 <@preaction-m> svn co https://svn.webgui.org/svnroot/WebGUI WebGUI_SVN
21:19 < iPhoneGuy> ok. So removing the entire line should fix the issue right?
21:20 < iPhoneGuy> 	return '' if ($self->getValue('disableRichEditor') || $self->session->env->get("HTTP_USER_AGENT") =~ /Safari/);
21:20 <+perlDreamer> NO
21:20 <+perlDreamer> You have to keep the disable
21:20 <+perlDreamer> Just remove the if clause
21:20 <@preaction-m> snapcount: they've announced a Guitar Hero 1980's edition :p
21:20 <+perlDreamer> rather, the or clause
21:20 <@preaction-m> no, just remove the Safari part
21:20 <@preaction-m> you want the if ($self->getValue('disableRichEditor')
21:20 < PedersenMJ> Whoa! Now *that* might make me buy Guitar Hero. Not because I can play the guitar, but because I'm still stuck in the 80's == good music mindset.
21:21 < iPhoneGuy> indeed thanks
21:21 < iPhoneGuy> so I'd remove this || $self->session->env->get("HTTP_USER_AGENT") =~ /Safari/)
21:21 <+perlDreamer> yup
21:21 <+perlDreamer> and then test it
21:21 <@preaction-m> you'll probably need that last )
21:21 <+perlDreamer> on several browsers
21:21 < iPhoneGuy> indeed thanks again :)
21:22 < iPhoneGuy> ok testing it
21:24 < iPhoneGuy> indeed it works
21:25 <+perlDreamer> now, all you need to do is post on the RFE board, either as a new RFE or attached to an existing RFE already requesting.
21:25 <+perlDreamer> Then go to the etc board and tell people about the fix
21:25 <@preaction-m> svn diff > patch-to-enable-html-editor-in-webkit.diff
21:25 < iPhoneGuy> ok
21:26 < iPhoneGuy> since it's very fast to do, will it be included in 7.3.5?
21:26 <+perlDreamer> no
21:26 < iPhoneGuy> why? :)
21:26 <@preaction-m> x.x.* releases are bugfixes
21:26 <+perlDreamer> it's very rare for RFE's to get put into sub-releases
21:26 <@preaction-m> x.* releases are features
21:26 < iPhoneGuy> well I wouldn't call that a "feature" lol
21:27 < iPhoneGuy> rather a bug fix
21:27 <@preaction-m> it's something that webgui will do that it didn't before :p
21:27 < iPhoneGuy> this sentence could also be applied to bugs :D
21:28 <+perlDreamer> A bug is an unintended function
21:28 <@preaction-m> no, a bug is something it was meant to do that it doesn't do correctly
21:28 <@preaction-m> from that code, you can see that webgui was specifically meant to block Safari from the html editor
21:28 < iPhoneGuy> indeed but that was when Safari didn't support TinyMCE
21:28 <@preaction-m> so it's not a bug, it's a feature
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21:29 < iPhoneGuy> as you wish :)
21:29 <+perlDreamer> you catch more devs with smileys than flames
21:29 < iPhoneGuy> I never flamed
21:29 <@preaction-m> perhaps a better RFE that would be future-compatible is to make html editors disabled by regex matching the User Agent based on configration
21:30 < iPhoneGuy> indeed
21:30 <+perlDreamer> wouldn't we have to know which ones won't ever work right todo that?
21:30 < iPhoneGuy> also what I saw there was a wrong User Agent string
21:30 <@preaction-m> he's saying that for things that aren't as simple as black-and-white, where both opinions are absolutely valid, it's best to agree with the people in charge
21:30 < iPhoneGuy> at least not the string Safari developers recommend to use
21:30 <@preaction-m> meh, it's being removed so we don't care anymore, neh?
21:31 < iPhoneGuy> they recommend to use the WebKit identifier which is the correct way since several browsers are powered by it and have the same behaviour
21:31 <@preaction-m> perlDreamer: it would mean that it would be configurable, so when support is added / broken, people can just edit their configurations instead of having to patch the code
21:31 < iPhoneGuy> indeed we don't.. But maybe there is somewhere else
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> indeed preaction I agree
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> by chance anyone use WRE on a Mac here?
21:32 <@preaction-m> i mean, it's a little-used feature, but it's less work for the devs
21:32 <@preaction-m> i use parallels to use an ubuntu wre, so no
21:32 <@preaction-m> jt's on the path to fixing the wre for intel macs, now that he has one to play with
21:32 < iPhoneGuy> :D
21:32 <+perlDreamer> yes, but it would still allow users to enable browsers that won't work
21:33 < iPhoneGuy> really wow that's cool
21:33 <@preaction-m> perlDreamer: then it's out of our hands, we keep the ones that don't work in the .conf.original file
21:33 < iPhoneGuy> The best would be 64-bit compile of MySQL, Apache and Perl for Mac Intel
21:33 <@preaction-m> i suppose i might go against JT in that, i feel that giving users all the choice is better, even if it's just enough rope to hang themselves with
21:34 < iPhoneGuy> the next Mac OS X Server got those packages at 64-bit
21:34 <@preaction-m> mainly because it means they're bothering me less
21:34 <+perlDreamer> IIRC, that line of code was added to make sure that we were bothered less about trying to fix Safari.
21:34 <@preaction-m> most likely
21:35 <+perlDreamer> now we get lots of requests to add it back in.  Probably a wash one way or the other?
21:35 <@preaction-m> considering ff works on os x? there might even be an opera build for it?
21:35 <@preaction-m> both better browsers
21:35 -!- perlDreamer is now known as lunchDreamer
21:35 < iPhoneGuy> anyway maybe you can help me in upgrading the WRE? I'm stuck at 0.7.1 and when 0.7.2 came out I read the upgrade instructions but was rather disappointed :D
21:36 <@preaction-m> the instructions work
21:36 < iPhoneGuy> it says to drop the new folder over to the old one... But how the DB gets migrated and such, all the files, etc.? Evidently I'm missing something
21:36 <@preaction-m> the db doesn't need to be migrated
21:37 < iPhoneGuy> indeed
21:37 <@preaction-m> the files aren't in the wre folder
21:37 <@preaction-m> you're just changing a bunch of binaries
21:37 < iPhoneGuy> nor is the mysql db?
21:37 <@preaction-m> the dbs aren't overwritten at all, since they didn't exist in the original wre tarball
21:38 <@preaction-m> why did nintendo choose opera i wonder
21:38 < iPhoneGuy> hah :)
21:39 < iPhoneGuy> because they're outsourcing the Wii browser. Opera does offer those kind of services
21:39 < iPhoneGuy> probably that's one of the reasons
21:39 <@preaction-m> they could outsource to mozilla, or a software house to port the mozilla engine, or webkit, why opera?
21:41 < iPhoneGuy> well Opera is specilised in that kind of service. They've already done that with a bunch of different devices. WebKit or other engines would have meant to create a dev team, more work for Nintendo at the end
21:41 < PedersenMJ> You mean, why did they choose the browser that has such a small memory footprint that it can run on mobile phones instead of the browsers that require multi-gigahertz machines with hundreds of megs of ram to keep them running?
21:42 < iPhoneGuy> The Wii is not a cell-phone, so the memory footprint is maybe the last reason
21:42 <@preaction-m> Wii has only 64m ram for system use
21:42 < iPhoneGuy> and btw WebKit runs faster than Opera on the iPhone :D
21:42 < PedersenMJ> You don't say!
21:43 < PedersenMJ> Imagine that, on hardware that Apple controls, and software that Apple wrote, it all runs faster on Apple's own hardware than what a 3rd party wrote?
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> preaction: to sum up, I just have to drop the new "prereqs" folder over to the old one to update WRE?
21:43 <@preaction-m> no, drop the ENTIRE THING, like the docs say
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> indeed, that's one of the reasons they make both hw and sw lol
21:43 < PedersenMJ> Wow... Whoda thunk it. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that water's wet!
21:43 <@preaction-m> nothing bad will happen, hasn't happened to the 3000 other people who did it
21:43 < iPhoneGuy> that's what you just said pedersen ;)
21:44 < iPhoneGuy> ok preaction, just to be sure :)
21:44 < PedersenMJ> Opera: Small, fast, lightweight, highly portable, used by many major companies for embedded browser applications.
21:45 <@preaction-m> which is all you needed to say
21:45 < iPhoneGuy> just because developing their own was too costly ;) Nokia chose WebKit for N60
21:45 <@preaction-m> meh, nokia's been going downhill
21:45 < iPhoneGuy> because they have the resources. They started a new WebKit branch
21:45 < PedersenMJ> Good point. I think I'll let that point stand, rather than continue my rant at ipg. Sorry about that.
21:46 <@preaction-m> radix has played with some awesome phones
21:46 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-122.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has joined #webgui
21:46 <@preaction-m> (and I was the one who asked the question about Opera)
21:46 < iPhoneGuy> so I did :D
21:47 < PedersenMJ> And somehow, I got diverted into ranting at him. Need to pay attention better.
21:47 < iPhoneGuy> <--- that will be my next one of course lol
21:47 < PedersenMJ> Or, do good drugs so I've got a better excuse next time.
21:47 <@preaction-m> eh, my first reaction was "OMG WANTY", but now I'm still thinking i'll stick to the HTC TyTN
21:47 < iPhoneGuy> You got a bad day pedersen? lol
21:48 < iPhoneGuy> hah iPhone is just the best
21:48 <+MrHairgrease> yes
21:48 <+MrHairgrease> but does it run linux
21:48 <+MrHairgrease> ?
21:48 < iPhoneGuy> it runs OS X, far better
21:48 < PedersenMJ> Well, since I threw out my back with the moving I did yesterday (to the point that walking at all is a noticeable effort), I'll say that yeah, today is not a good day.
21:48 < cap10morgan> Is it kosher to override the commit method if you want your Wobject to do something funky when it's versiontag is committed?
21:48 <@snapcount> absolutely
21:48 <@snapcount> extend it rather
21:49 < cap10morgan> snapcount: yes, extend
21:49 < cap10morgan> snapcount: definitely planning to call the SUPER version too
21:49 <@snapcount> look at wobjects like article
21:49 < cap10morgan> snapcount: oh cool, will do
21:49 <@snapcount> when there is an attachment involved, that's exactly what they do
21:50 < iPhoneGuy> speaking of attachments, don't you think that when you add an attachment to a CS, the preview button should load it too rather than just the Send button?
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> I mean the preview button is placed under the attachment field, it's just logical that it should load it
21:51 <@preaction-m> loading it requires uploading it, requires time
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> indeed
21:51 < iPhoneGuy> Many users emailed me about that
21:51 <@preaction-m> besides, if you have the file, you don't need to see it on the website
21:52 < iPhoneGuy> I need to see it because of the way I developed the template
21:52 < iPhoneGuy> in a CS, the attachment field is the cover of a book. So when users submit reviews, they see the article well formatted
21:53 <@preaction-m> so i assume size is the issue?
21:53 < iPhoneGuy> and that should be the case also when they hit preview
21:53 <@preaction-m> put a max-height and max-width on the <img> tag, among other things you could try
21:53 <@snapcount> cap10morgan: I told you wrong
21:53 <@snapcount> it's addRevision, not commit
21:53 < iPhoneGuy> No.. The issue is that the preview button doesn't upload the attachment. And  because the attachment is part of the layout of the page, it's not a real preview. Besides, users have to reselect the file again
21:54 <@snapcount> You may be able to extend commit as well, but most likely addRevision is what you want
21:54 < iPhoneGuy> after they have clicked Preview I mean
21:54 < cap10morgan> snapcount: ok. i need to do something different depending on whether this a new wobject or an edit of an existing one. should i count past revisions to figure that out?
21:55 <@preaction-m> someone said something about enabling uploads in the TinyMCE
21:55 <@preaction-m> or, instead of using a CS, give your users access to add articles to a certain part of the site
21:56 < iPhoneGuy> mmh not a good thing for me as of now because the TinyMCE content just goes in the description field. Instead my attachment is part of the layout as I said. Something separate from "description"
21:56 < iPhoneGuy> yeah I tried that road when I designed the website. But CS was a better way to go
21:56 <@snapcount> cap10morgan: You want to commit differently based on that?
21:56 <@preaction-m> uhm. the tinyMCE is used to post to CS
21:56 <@snapcount> what do you want to do differently?  high level
21:57 < cap10morgan> snapcount: there's an external db that i need to either do an insert or an update on depending on whether it's a wobject creation or an edit
21:57 < iPhoneGuy> preaction: I know. I said something different :)
21:57 < cap10morgan> snapcount: the commit will happen the same w/in webgui
21:58 <@snapcount> cap10morgan: you can use the getRevisionCount() method and extend commit
21:58 < iPhoneGuy> TinyMCE delivers its content to the "description" field in a CS. Its body, whatever you like to call it. Now, I designed a template to include custom book covers in a pre-formatted layout. And I achieved that using the attachment field
21:58  * PedersenMJ goes to lay down again. l8r.
21:58 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
21:59 < iPhoneGuy> the image template var. And the image comes from the attachment field
22:00 < iPhoneGuy> You know what I mean?
22:00 <@preaction-m> yes, i find it to be an idea outside of the scope of a collaboration system and inside the scope of an article
22:00 < cap10morgan> snapcount: ok, so i should extend commit for this instead of addRevision?
22:01 < iPhoneGuy> indeed. As I said, I first tried the Article way. But it didn't work for me. It's not enough flexible
22:01 < iPhoneGuy> Only the CS allowed me to do the things I wanted to do
22:02 < iPhoneGuy> besides, it also offer RSS and comments built-in
22:04 < iPhoneGuy> so at the end what do you think about that Preview button and attachment issue? :)
22:13 < iPhoneGuy> Well gtg now see you!
22:13 -!- iPhoneGuy [n=iPhoneGu@85-18-14-23.fastres.net] has quit ["Quitting!"]
22:31  * crythias sighs as relief of a talkative person has left.
22:31  * crythias makes up grammar as he goes along.
22:32 -!- snapcount is now known as iPhoneGuy
22:32 <@iPhoneGuy> HAHAHA
22:32 <@iPhoneGuy> I'm Back Crythias
22:32 <@iPhoneGuy> and I'll get your little dog too!
22:32 -!- iPhoneGuy is now known as snapcount
22:32 <+MrHairgrease> kick him iPhoneGuy!
22:32 <+MrHairgrease> ah
22:32 <+MrHairgrease> tooo late
22:32 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:32 <@snapcount> hehe
22:32 <+MrHairgrease> just my luck...
22:32  * crythias whimpers silently, crawling into the fetal position, trying to find his "happy place."
22:33 <@snapcount> I used to have a happy place
22:33 <+MrHairgrease> being...
22:33 <+crythias> me, too, but now I have a TRO.
22:33 <@snapcount> it was imaginary
22:33 <+crythias> oops. Did I just say that in print?
22:34 <@snapcount> I called it "The land of dreams and otherwise happy thoughts copyright snapcount industries 2048"
22:35 <@snapcount> cap10morgan: for what you described, I think that would work fine
22:35 <@snapcount> keep in mind though that wG expects that commit to happen pretty quickly
22:36 <@snapcount> it does account for timeouts though
22:36 <@snapcount> 999 seconds per version tag I believe
22:36 < cap10morgan> snapcount: ok, it should happen pretty quickly. thanks.
22:37 <@snapcount> np man
22:37 <@snapcount> I love to help developers =)
22:37 <+crythias> I want this feature.
22:37 <+crythias> I want this feature now.
22:37 <+crythias> I've been using WG for 20 minutes and this feature from phpnuke isn't in it. put it in, now!
22:42 <+crythias> hrm
22:42 <+crythias> 51gb on a cd-sized disk?
22:43 <+crythias> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/15/tosh_touts_51gb_hddvd/
22:45 <@snapcount> lol crythias
22:46 <@snapcount> preaction-m: isn't your Calendar migration in upgrade supposed to remove all of the old instance data for EventsCalendar after it has been migrated to Calendar?
22:47 <@snapcount> I ask because it appears someone has managed to upgrade and somehow still have EventsCalendar instances on their site
22:48 -!- snapcount is now known as snapFoo
22:48 <@snapFoo> crap
22:49 <@snapFoo> someone owns this one
22:49 -!- snapFoo is now known as snap_away
22:50 <+crythias> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/10/warner_launches_total_hd_disc/
22:51 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as snapFoo
22:51 -!- crythias is now known as snapcount
22:51 -!- snapFoo is now known as MrHairgrease
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> it seems to work for me
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> and for crythias btw
22:51 <+snapcount> maybe
22:52 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as crythias
22:52 -!- snapcount is now known as crythia1
22:52 -!- crythias [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has left #webgui []
22:52 -!- crythia1 is now known as bbrain
22:52 -!- MrHairgrease [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #webgui
22:52 -!- mode/#webgui [+v MrHairgrease] by ChanServ
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> whoops
22:53 <+bbrain> hrm
22:53  * MrHairgrease slaps crythias in the face
22:53 <+bbrain> oh?
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> come back man
22:54 -!- bbrain is now known as crythias
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> don't let that other personality take iover
22:54 <+crythias> stupid
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> wheww
22:54 <+MrHairgrease> that was a close one
22:54 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
22:56  * crythias feels ... icky
22:57 < PedersenMJ> :takes icky away from crythias before icky files the sexual harassment suit.
22:57 <+crythias> hence the TRO
22:57 < PedersenMJ> tro?
22:57 <+crythias> temp. restraining order
22:58 < PedersenMJ> Ah, see, I haven't had one of those yet. Not sure how I managed to avoid it, but I have. Just lucky that way.
23:01 < PedersenMJ> So, seriously, what's wrong, crythias?
23:01 <+crythias> WRONG?
23:01 <+crythias> sorry
23:01 <+crythias> didn't mean to shout.
23:01 <+crythias> nothing's wrong, that I know...
23:01 <+crythias> I just mistyped something
23:01 < PedersenMJ> Ah, was wondering about the icky thing.
23:17  * MrHairgrease tests wheter his internetconnection has died
23:17 <+MrHairgrease> aparently not
23:23  * crythias killed you for taking his nick
23:23 < PedersenMJ> Anybody know of a decent webmail interface that uses mod_perl and can handle using imap?
23:25 <+lunchDreamer> nope, sorry
23:25 <+crythias> some reason I'm blocked from http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~dpc22/prayer/ 				
23:25 <+MrHairgrease> works for me
23:25 -!- lunchDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
23:26 <+crythias> my onsite blocks ac.uk
23:26 <+crythias> http://www.reedmedia.net/misc/mail/web-based.html
23:26 <+crythias> not my isp, but my content filter.
23:26 <+perlDreamer> under what category?
23:27 <+crythias> dunno. maybe foreign :)
23:27 <+crythias> it's dansguardian, and I can open it as a grey open.
23:27 <+perlDreamer> gotta watch out for that foreign stuff
23:28 <+crythias> I certainly don't need *.ac.uk open completely. pr0n.ac.uk is certainly not on my "ok" list.
23:29 <+crythias> oakmailer looks slick
23:29 <+crythias> http://www.oakbox.com/scripts/oakmailer.shtml#screenshots
23:32 < PedersenMJ> It is, and does, but it doesn't support imap.
23:47 -!- snap_away is now known as snapcount
23:51 <+perlDreamer> back and at it like a shark in a tuna factory
23:53 <+crythias> uh
23:56 <+crythias> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mbeattie/wing/ 				
23:56 <+crythias> mod_perl and imap
23:58 <@snapcount> sweet... step 1 - resetdev, step 2 - watch load on virt machine jump to 23 and stay there
23:59 <@snapcount> step 3 - listen to fans on the laptop kick in
23:59 <+perlDreamer> ooh!
23:59 <+perlDreamer> free power generation
23:59 <+crythias> hrm
23:59 <+perlDreamer> now, just place a small wind turbine in front of the fan and you can power your laptop from it!
23:59 <+crythias> why should I be blocking government sites?
23:59 <+perlDreamer> with our goverrnment, you ask this?
23:59 <+crythias> ac.uk is blocked
--- Day changed Tue Jan 16 2007
00:00 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: perpetual motion++
00:00 <+perlDreamer> drat!
00:00 <+perlDreamer> karma perpetual motion
00:00 <+perlDreamer> perlbot karma perpetual motion
00:00 < perlbot> perpetual motion doesn't have any karma
00:00 <+perlDreamer> perlDreamer karma motion
00:00 <+perlDreamer> perlbot karma motion
00:00 < perlbot> Karma for motion: 1
00:01 <+perlDreamer> perlbot -- for not grokking spaces
00:01 <@snapcount> perlbot you are confusing me
00:01 <+crythias> um.
00:02 <@snapcount> perlbot say um
00:02 <@snapcount> perlbot do you do anything useful
00:02 <@snapcount> perlbot help
00:02 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
00:02 <+perlDreamer> perlbot tell snapcount about perlbot
00:03 <@snapcount> perlbot 8ball
00:03 < perlbot> Magic 8ball says: Yes
00:03 <@snapcount> perlbot 8ball
00:03 < perlbot> Magic 8ball says: Definite maybe
00:03 <@snapcount> perlbot help
00:03 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
00:03 <@snapcount> perlbot roll
00:04 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: is there a way to access logs from the demo server?
00:04 <@snapcount> sure
00:04 <@snapcount> ask me
00:04 <@snapcount> =)
00:04 <+perlDreamer> this one, please :)
00:04 <+perlDreamer> ????????????????
00:04 <@snapcount> ???
00:04 <+perlDreamer> or this one: demo1168894497_336
00:04 <@snapcount> wtf is that?
00:04 <+perlDreamer> raw UTF8 from an ancient Mozilla on Solaris-8
00:05 <+perlDreamer> I hate $dayJobBox
00:05 <+perlDreamer> We hates it
00:05 <+perlDreamer> We hates it forever!
00:09 <@snapcount> no entries
00:09 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
00:09 <@snapcount> cat /data/wre/var/webgui.log | grep demo1168894497_336
00:09 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:09 <@snapcount> null
00:09 <+perlDreamer> oh!
00:09 <+perlDreamer> I got it
00:09 <+perlDreamer> This isn't a bug
00:09 <+perlDreamer> Kristi's new Zip Archive bug
00:09 <+perlDreamer> it's not a bug
00:10 <@snapcount> I broke zip archive
00:10 <+perlDreamer> no
00:10 <+perlDreamer> oh?
00:10 <@snapcount> b/c I'm an idiot
00:10 <+perlDreamer> do tell
00:10 <@snapcount> you can't upload html files to it anymore
00:10 <@snapcount> I don't think you can anyway
00:11 <@snapcount> b/c of my anti-phishing fix
00:11 <+perlDreamer> oh
00:11 <+perlDreamer> well, in this case it's still not a bug because there's no index.html file in the zip archive
00:11 <+perlDreamer> you're off the hook, dude!
00:11 < PedersenMJ> Back myself, finally. OOg. Anyway, wing: Also at version 0.11, and nothing released since 2001.
00:12 <@snapcount> perlbot help
00:12 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
00:12 <@snapcount> perlbot tell snapcount about Eureka
00:12 < perlbot> Eureka isn't something I know about, snapcount
00:12 <@snapcount> dummy
00:12 <@snapcount> perlbot tell snapcount about the birds and the bees
00:12 < perlbot> the birds and the bees isn't something I know about, snapcount
00:13 <+perlDreamer> perlbot learn Eureka as A show on the scifi Channel
00:13 < perlbot> added Eureka to the database
00:13 <+perlDreamer> perlbot tell snapcount about Eureka
00:13 <@snapcount> I see
00:13 <@snapcount> calc with much more typing
00:13 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:14 <+perlDreamer> perlbot docs Parse::Recdescent
00:14 < perlbot> Documentation for 'Parse::Recdescent' can be found here: http://snipurl.com/17l01
00:14 <+perlDreamer> perlbot fortune
00:14 <+crythias> http://web-imap.sourceforge.net/
00:14 < perlbot> In the Garden of Eden sat Adam, Massaging the bust of his madam, He chuckled with mirth, For he knew that on earth, There were only two boobs and he had 'em. 
00:14 <@snapcount> perlbot snakes on a plane > the green mile
00:15 <@snapcount> I'm still trying to decipher the help
00:15 <+perlDreamer> perlbot slap snapcount
00:15  * perlbot slaps snapcount around a bit with a large trout
00:15 <+perlDreamer> perlbot diss khenn
00:15 < perlbot> OMG khenn sucks.
00:15 <+perlDreamer> perlbot tempt preaction-m
00:15 <@snapcount> perlbot jargon web2.0
00:15 < perlbot> Term "web2.0" not found in the Jargon file
00:15 <+crythias> perlbot crythias
00:16 <+crythias> perlbot tell me about crythias
00:16 < perlbot> crythias isn't something I know about, crythias
00:16 <@snapcount> perlbot roll 1000
00:16 <@snapcount> perlbot roll
00:16 < PedersenMJ> So, it seems like all the mod perl/imap clients out there are no longer maintained, or never got to a decent size.
00:16 <+crythias> perlbot fortune
00:16 < perlbot> Dope will get you through times of no money better that money will get you through times of no dope. -- Gilbert Shelton 
00:16 < PedersenMJ> Including WING (0.11, last release Aug 13, 2001)
00:17 <@snapcount> perlbot scramble this is a secret message
00:17 < perlbot> tihs is a seerct massege
00:17 <+crythias> yeahbut, how often does imap/web actually change?
00:17 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: what if uploaded HTML files had to go through an HTML filter, instead of blocking them outright?
00:18 <@snapcount> filter?
00:18 <+perlDreamer> sure
00:18 <@snapcount> like a Britta?
00:18 < PedersenMJ> For the apparent best one to be at v 0.11 is somewhat disconcerting.
00:18 <+perlDreamer> scrub links, remove javascript, macros, etc.
00:18 <@snapcount> oh
00:18 <@snapcount> don't want to do that for zip archive
00:19 <@snapcount> I already have a solution, just can't implement it until 7.4
00:19 <+crythias> pedersonmj: what? :) it's not like all the bug fixes we're doing make it to stable releases for wg. Oh, wait...
00:19 <+perlDreamer> can you clue me in?
00:19 <@snapcount> sure
00:19 <@snapcount> basically addFileFromFormPost is going to accept a parameter of the file types to block
00:20 < cap10morgan> when you submit a dataform, what method gets called to process the post?
00:20  * crythias simply adds Zimbra to WebGUI and all heck breaks loose...
00:20 <@snapcount> processPropertiesFromFormPost
00:20 < cap10morgan> ok, that's what i thought, thanks
00:20 <@snapcount> np
00:20 <@snapcount> it will get the defaults from a site wide setting
00:21 <@snapcount> but it will be magical
00:21 <+perlDreamer> doesn't that still allow for phishing?
00:21 <@snapcount> no... because the CS can now pass html as a file type to disallow when it calls addFileFromFormPost
00:22 <@snapcount> and other stuff
00:22 <+perlDreamer> but whereever the HTML file type is allowed I can still fish
00:22 <@snapcount> it will never be allowed for user contrib content
00:22 <@snapcount> only for things like zip archive
00:22 -!- preaction__ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
00:23  * crythias would like the rss feeds of WG to actually um.. work.
00:23 <+perlDreamer> okay, that's cool
00:23 <+perlDreamer> hidden somewhere in the bowels of wG isn't there a javascript string escaping function?
00:23 <@snapcount> its cool because the new way you can even define certain file types to be renamed with certain extensions
00:24 <@snapcount> htmltemplate will do it
00:24 <@snapcount> <tmpl_var content escape='js'>
00:24 <@snapcount> something like that I think
00:24 <+perlDreamer> I need something at the wG API level
00:24 <+perlDreamer> and remember seeing it somewhere, but can't remember where
00:25 <@snapcount> probably HTML.pm
00:25 -!- preaction-m_ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
00:25 <+perlDreamer> nope
00:25 <@snapcount> dagnabit
00:26 <@snapcount> HTML::Filter
00:26 <@snapcount> ?
00:26 <@snapcount> that just negates it nm
00:26 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:26 <+perlDreamer> it was buried down in some Asset/Operation
00:31 <+perlDreamer> I'll just go back to documentation and let the big boys handle the bug fixing
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00:35 <+perlDreamer> http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/hack_this_cmos.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
00:35 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: shorten it
00:35 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/t97d
00:35 <+perlDreamer> perlbot++
00:42 <@snapcount> hand soldering connectors to something that is 8 mil
00:42 <@snapcount> insane
00:42 <+perlDreamer> nervy
00:42 -!- preaction-m [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
00:43 <@snapcount> perlbot tell perlDreamer the meaning of life
00:43 <@snapcount> darn
00:43 <@snapcount> perlbot tell perlDreamer about the meaning of life
00:43 < perlbot> the meaning of life isn't something I know about, snapcount
00:43 <@snapcount> come on man
00:44 <+perlDreamer> he's just a youngin'
00:44 <+perlDreamer> not even sentient
00:44 <+perlDreamer> just a bot
00:44 -!- perlbot was kicked from #webgui by snapcount [get your learn on]
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00:45 <+perlDreamer> this weekend, for fun, I implemented 4 RFE's in a separate tree
00:45 -!- snapcount was kicked from #webgui by snapcount [stop kicking people out @$$h0l3]
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00:46 <@snapcount> which 4
00:46 <+perlDreamer> paginating the manage committed version screen
00:46 <+perlDreamer> reverse sort order for same
00:46 <+perlDreamer> um...
00:47 <+perlDreamer> Javascript confirmation for DatabaseLink page
00:47 < xdanger> wow, that yui-ext guy seems like a guru =)
00:48 <+perlDreamer> most of You have (nn) new messages
00:48 <+perlDreamer> and some refactoring for Pagination and Inbox to speed them up
00:48 <@snapcount> very nice
00:48 <+perlDreamer> thanks
00:48 <@snapcount> I think the change I made to Calendar will make it slower
00:48 <+perlDreamer> what did you do/
00:49 <@snapcount> not checked in yet obviously
00:49 <+perlDreamer> oh year
00:49 <+perlDreamer> yeah
00:49 <@snapcount> added ability to set who can view on events
00:49 <+perlDreamer> have to do an isInGroup for each user/event
00:49 <+perlDreamer> yeah, but it should cache as long as the groups don't get crazy
00:49 <@snapcount> nope
00:50 <@snapcount> not how I did it
00:50 <@snapcount> guess again
00:50 <+perlDreamer> is your who can view group or user based?
00:50 <@snapcount> "I'll take Roy's brain for $300 Alex"
00:50 <@snapcount> yes
00:50 <@snapcount> lol
00:50 <@snapcount> group
00:51 <+perlDreamer> hmm, so you did permissions without using isInGroup?
00:51 <+perlDreamer> no clue, dude
00:51 <@snapcount> heh
00:51 <@snapcount> canView
00:51 <@snapcount> Event is an asset
00:51 <@snapcount> but in fairness
00:51 <@snapcount> canView does that =)
00:51 <@snapcount> but in Asset.pm... I didn't do it
00:51 <+perlDreamer> that and more, too, because my way wouldn't have checked edit/owner
00:52 <@snapcount> so I removed his return of objects and did this
00:53 <@snapcount> return grep { $_->canView(); } @{$eventAssets};
00:53 <@snapcount> or something similar
00:53 <@snapcount> so it's post processing which sucks
00:53 <@snapcount> the list was being generated with getLineage and returning assets so I couldn't see a better way to do it
00:54 <+perlDreamer> unless getLineage would do the work for you, there's not really any alternative
00:54 <@snapcount> yeah... it doesn't
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00:54 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't yet :)
00:54 <+perlDreamer> maybe it needs a pluggable filter system instead of fixed rules
00:55 <@snapcount> a flag to return viewable assets only would be cool
00:55 <+perlDreamer> that, too.  and much simpler
00:55 <+perlDreamer> After working with the RFE list, I've become convinced we need a way to tag RFEs that are implemented and/or rejected 
00:55 <@snapcount> close them
00:56 <+perlDreamer> I have not that power, Sensei
00:56 <@snapcount> that's how we do it... but rejected we also add a comment saying so and why
00:56 <+perlDreamer> I am only a brown belt.
00:56 <@snapcount> really?
00:56 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:56 <+perlDreamer> I may close bugs, but not RFEs
00:56 <@snapcount> that sucketh
00:56 <+perlDreamer> I can send you a list to close?
00:56 <@snapcount> but I understand why
00:57 <@snapcount> no no no
00:57 <@snapcount> =)
00:57 <@snapcount> send it to JT
00:57 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:57 <@snapcount> he's the RFE guy now... I'm but a mere mortal again
00:57 <@snapcount> thank God
00:57 <+perlDreamer> We'll just call you Bruce.
00:57 <+perlDreamer> And at least your dog is potty trained now
00:58 <+perlDreamer> oh!
00:58 <+perlDreamer> I also did the productId display in the editProduct screen RFE
00:58 <+perlDreamer> I guess that's five
01:04 <+perlDreamer> maybe I'll do the "Handling subscriptions in CS" one next
01:04 <+perlDreamer> I know the guy who wrote it
01:04 <+perlDreamer> he has some really good ideas for wG
01:04 <+perlDreamer> sometimes
01:09  * perlDreamer shudders at the PM templatification
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01:10 <+perlDreamer> welcome back
01:10 -!- mode/#webgui [+v crythias] by ChanServ
01:11 <+crythias> :)
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01:19 <@snapcount> alright guys... it's sibling night so I'm off to hang out with my brothers.
01:19 < rizen> he's lying
01:19 < rizen> don't trust him
01:20 < rizen> he doesn't even have siblings
01:20 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: nicely done on the RFEs... we should be stable next week so you will have a branch to check them into
01:20 <@snapcount> the abuse I endure
01:20 <@snapcount> we - are - family
01:20 < rizen> anything perlDreamer does is nicely done
01:20 < rizen> tis the nature of being perlDreamer
01:21 <@snapcount> true 'dat pita
01:21 <@snapcount> hehe
01:21 <@snapcount> later guys
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01:33  * perlDreamer inserts the daily gripe about core commits without docs
01:34 <+perlDreamer> ProjectManager, Calendar, Event
01:34 < rizen> who did it?
01:37 <+perlDreamer> drake and doug
01:37 < rizen> drake hasn't worked here since before xmas
01:37 < rizen> so are these old infractions?
01:38 <+perlDreamer> they've not been documented since committed
01:38 < rizen> k
01:38 < rizen> i still have to document the wiki too
01:38 < rizen> but that's part of the reason why it's not stable yet
01:38 <+perlDreamer> Are you sure?
01:39 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/support?op=viewHelpChapter;namespace=Asset_WikiMaster
01:39 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/support?op=viewHelpChapter;namespace=Asset_WikiPage
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01:47 <@rizen> crap the crapping crapper
01:47 -!- Radix-wrk [n=Jesse@203.161.68.67] has joined #webgui
01:47 <@rizen> my irc client froze
01:47 <+perlDreamer> that's not good
01:48 <@rizen> i'm trying out a new one
01:48 <@rizen> working from my winblowz box right now
01:48 <@rizen> anyway...who did that?
01:48 <@rizen> i didn't
01:48 <@rizen> or at least i don't remember doing it
01:48 <+perlDreamer> I did
01:48 <+perlDreamer> I do most of your and Frank's docs
01:48 <@rizen> hehe
01:48 <@rizen> you bastard
01:48 <@rizen> i mean
01:48 <@rizen> thank you
01:48 <@rizen> but you shouldn't have
01:49 <@rizen> it's my responsibility
01:49 <+perlDreamer> you go fix bugs, I'll do your docs
01:49 <@rizen> hehe
01:49 <@rizen> ok...well wed-fri thats what i'll be doing
01:49 <@rizen> well, that and support
01:49 <@rizen> incidentally, i'm laying down the law on 7.4
01:50 <@rizen> we cannot release it stable until 100% of the bugs in the bug list are 100% resolved
01:50 <+perlDreamer> wow
01:50 <+perlDreamer> 7.4 will be the most stable of wG ever with that criterion
01:50 <@rizen> yup
01:50 <@rizen> that's the goal
01:50 <@rizen> i'm sick of continuously having so many bugs out there
01:50 <@rizen> and i'm sure the users are too
01:51 <+perlDreamer> there are bugs going back to 6.8 in the list
01:51 <@rizen> i know
01:51 <@rizen> and it's about time they were gone
01:51 <@rizen> don't you think?
01:51 <@rizen> hehe
01:51 <+perlDreamer> yeah!
01:51 <@rizen> other than a special utility script i've been working on
01:51 <@rizen> i won't be adding any new features to 7.4
01:52 <@rizen> just doing the best practices stuff
01:52 <@rizen> and fixing bugs
01:52 <@rizen> so it should be a really stable release
01:52 <@rizen> unless someone goes in and starts adding lots of new features
01:52 <+perlDreamer> :)
01:52 <@rizen> i'm looking at you COLIN
01:52 <+perlDreamer> you should
01:52 <+perlDreamer> it's mainly pagination, ordering and javascript confirmation stuff
01:52 <@rizen> cool...usability improvements are always good
01:53 <@rizen> anyway...gotta go
01:53 <+perlDreamer> plus two optimizations to speed up the Inbox and Paginator
01:53 <@rizen> got company
01:53 <+perlDreamer> l8r
01:53 <@rizen> later
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02:37 < preaction-m_> so colin will document frank and JT
02:37 < preaction-m_> 's code, but not mine... i feel loved
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02:42 <@preaction> oh well, i'm still prettier than colin
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03:44 < Radix-wrk> Anyone recommend a good ftp US based ftp hosting service - got about 5GB I need to store and do about 50GB of traffic a month
03:45 < xdanger> amazon s3 ?-)
03:45 < xdanger> not ftp, but still =)
03:46 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. wonder what that'd work out to be cost wise
03:48 < Radix-wrk> currently using pair networks - paying US$30/month for 3GB of space with plenty of bandwidth spare, but to upgrade from there it jumps up significantly.. 4GB is $50/m, and the next step up from there is $75/m for 20GB.
03:49 < Radix-wrk> We'll prolly upgrade to the $50/m plan, but I can see us needing more than 4GB space in future - so looking at what alternatives are out there
03:51 <+crythias> well, wait a sec..
03:51 <+crythias> why not putfile or rapidshare?
03:52 < xdanger> $0.15 per GB-Month of storage used.
03:52 < xdanger> $0.20 per GB of data transferred.
03:52 < Radix-wrk> We're not that cheap - we want it to last until we delete it, and it's for our company - downloads for our software
03:52 < xdanger> Radix-wrk: (5 * 0.15) + (50 * 0.20) = 10.75
03:53 <+crythias> aol xdrive 5gb for free.
03:53 < Radix-wrk> S3 actually sounds pretty good.. issues would be getting it to work smoothly with the system we have really
03:53 < xdanger> Radix-wrk: there is a fuse module for s3
03:53 < xdanger> i belive
03:54 < Radix-wrk> got scripts for uploading each version to our ftp, and our webgui version system is also scripted to assume they'll be in the right location with our default names.  S3 sounds like it gives random url's for every file.
03:54 < xdanger> it does
03:54 < xdanger> you could write a macro to translate ;)
03:55 <+crythias> but...
03:55 <+crythias> bluehost has lotsa space..
03:55 <+crythias> 200gb space, 200gigs of transfer
03:55 <+crythias> sorry
03:56 <+crythias> 2000 gigs of transfer
03:56 <+crythias> $7/month
03:56 < Radix-wrk> bluehost?  url?
03:57 <+crythias> bluehost.com
03:57 < xdanger> its almost 4am, I'm going to bed...
03:57 <+crythias> I use it for gwy.org
03:57 < Radix-wrk> you used them before?
03:57 <+crythias> no porn sites, just fyi
03:57 < Radix-wrk> lol.. it's not for porn :)
03:57 < Radix-wrk> we write CAD/CAM software
03:58 <+crythias> heh
03:58 < Radix-wrk> www.formsys.com
03:58 <+crythias> well, based upon your needs, I can't see how this would be unreasonable.
04:00 <+crythias> 1and1.com is competitive.
04:00 <+crythias> same space and xfer
04:00 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. thanks.. you've both given me something to think about :)
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06:27 <+perlDreamer> preaction, are you awake?
06:41 <+perlDreamer> in case you are awake, or come back later
06:41 <+perlDreamer> there are XSS attacks on PB's site on the bug and RFE forums
06:41 <+perlDreamer> If you could pull them so that people don't use them, it would be good
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07:39 < Radix-wrk> xdanger - was it you who was talking about a plugin for webgui uploads to link it to amazon's s3?  that would rock
07:39 < Radix-wrk> now that I know a little more about amazon's s3 stuff I know where you were coming from :)
08:24 <@preaction> it was someone from Donorware, I believe
08:25 <@preaction> i've also found the XSS vulnerability that perlDreamer found...
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17:13 <@khenn> morning
17:13 <@khenn> anything interesting going on today?
17:16  * khenn listens to the sound of crickets
17:18 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
17:19  * PedersenMJ waves from his lovely cube in Springfield, NJ. Hi all.
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18:13 < PedersenMJ> Hey JT, how's it going?
18:13 <@rizen> it is
18:13 <@rizen> that's about it
18:13 <@rizen> how about you
18:15 < PedersenMJ> Back pain, but better than it was yesterday.
18:15 < PedersenMJ> Today, at least, I'm at work, instead of at home.
18:15 <@rizen> i'm supposed to be working on the admin guide today...but suffering from writers block or something
18:16 <@rizen> nothing seems to come out right
18:21 < PedersenMJ> Well, tricks I've used are simply stream of consciousness, and pick somebody, and write at them.
18:21 < PedersenMJ> Of course, it can also be pick somebody you hate, and make sure they never get their hands on this information.
18:22 <@rizen> and i was thinking the way out was to go out and commit a few fellonies
18:22 <@rizen> let the cops chase me
18:22 <@rizen> get the adreanaline up
18:22 <@rizen> you know...get the rush going
18:22 <@rizen> hehe
18:22 < PedersenMJ> Hey, if that helps, go for it :)
18:23 < PedersenMJ> Suggest minor felonies, like rape and murder. Don't do the big stuff, like copyright infringement. We want to get you back someday.
18:56 <@khenn> The cure for writers block is sex
18:56 <@khenn> proven fact
18:57 <@rizen> the cure for life is death...proven fact
18:57 <@rizen> and i'm pretty sure that mine is more factual than yours
18:58 < PedersenMJ> Heh. But his is *lots* more fun to try to disprove.
18:59 <@khenn> the only thing death is a cure for is taxes
19:00 <@rizen> not true
19:00 <@rizen> death is a cure for lots of stuff
19:00 < PedersenMJ> Hah! You forget the inheritance tax, the fact that you still have to file a final tax return, and the thousand other taxes, including the "because you're dead and we can".
19:01 <@khenn> well *I* don't have to
19:01 <@khenn> =)
19:01 < PedersenMJ> True. After all, what are they going to do, put you in jail for a few decades?
19:01 <@khenn> my rotting corpse would be just fine with that I'm sure
19:02 < PedersenMJ> The "khenn Memorial Correctional Facility", where every cell comes with ventilation ducts coming right from khenn's cell, to ensure you have no desire to ever return!
19:03 <@khenn> heh
19:03 <@khenn> there's one way to fix the jails
19:04 <@khenn> but like everything else, after a while the prisoners would get used to the smell
19:05 < PedersenMJ> Which is why you'd also use the cell as a cesspool and (on alternating days) a kitchen.
19:06 <@khenn> remind me not to commit any crimes in your world =p
19:07 < PedersenMJ> Relax. It's pretty hard to commit a crime in my world. Just don't screw over somebody else without one helluva good reason. For instance: Kill someone. Bad. They were getting ready to kill you? Fine, they've learned their lesson.
19:08 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT? Sorry to be annoying, but I gotta ask if 7.3 is still on schedule to go stable this week?
19:09 <@rizen> it never was on schedule for that
19:09 <@rizen> 7.3 will be stable when it reaches all the criteria that snapcount set forth for it
19:09 < PedersenMJ> Thought I remembered your saying it ... Dang, I misinterpreted, and saw what I wanted to see. Sorry for that.
19:10 <@rizen> i probabably said something like "i hope.."
19:10 <@rizen> but hope is just what i want, not what will be
19:12 < PedersenMJ> I think that's exactly what you said.
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19:15 <@rizen> so as i was saying nobody really likes colin
19:15 <@rizen> he's such a jackass
19:15 <@rizen> oh, hi colin
19:15 <@rizen> didn't see you there
19:15 <@rizen> =)
19:18 <+perlDreamer> I read the IRC logs
19:18 <@preaction> loser
19:18 <+perlDreamer> did you get my email
19:19 <+perlDreamer> If you want to talk about docs, I'll be around today
19:19 <@rizen> get your email about what?
19:19 <@rizen> the xss thing/
19:19 <@rizen> ?
19:19 <@preaction> Calendar doc
19:20 <@preaction> he read the logs and saw me complain about him doing yours and Frank's docs, but not mine because he hates me
19:20 <+perlDreamer> I don't hate you
19:20 <@preaction> he lurbes me!
19:21 <@rizen> he does my docs cuz i'm the Don and he's my Capo
19:21 <@rizen> that's what Capo's do
19:21 <@rizen> =)
19:21 <+perlDreamer> I do your docs because I want you fixing bugs in wG
19:21  * preaction doesn't touch that with his ten-foot pole
19:23 <+perlDreamer> did the xss thing get fixed?
19:25 <@preaction> i repaired the site, disabled the account
19:26 <@preaction> i know the problem, e-mailed the staff, and I should probably post a bug to the forums, unless you want to
19:26 <@preaction> (since you discovered it) it's because you can put HTML in usernames
19:28 <+perlDreamer> either way is okay with me
19:28 <@preaction> in fact, i've got time right now i'll try to get a patch made quick
19:33 <+perlDreamer> I think snap may already have fixed it
19:35 <@preaction> he said he was going to, but he's offline and i can't ask if he did... the jerk... i'll rudely call his cellphone
19:35 <@preaction> if he didn't, i'm done already
19:47 <@preaction> he fixed it, so i'm posting the bug and a patch made from his code
19:50 <+perlDreamer> are there other places that we could look at to head off a new attack?
19:50 <@preaction> something proactive? i don't think that will work
19:51 <@preaction> otherwise, for the most part, anything that could be input by an unpriviledged user must be passed through an HTML filter
19:51 <+perlDreamer> that's what I was thinking
19:51 <+perlDreamer> user profile fields
19:51 <+perlDreamer> account data
19:52 <@preaction> the problem lies in when an admin actually Wants HTML to be in there
19:52 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:52 <@preaction> for example: i was going to deny any username from having a < or > in them, but roy only disallowed people from entering < or > in the UI
19:53 <@preaction> so through the API, it's still possible to make invalid usernames, but not through the UI
19:53 <+perlDreamer> we have separate form fields for text and HTML areas
19:53 <@preaction> (well, not invalid as much as unsafe)
19:53 <+perlDreamer> maybe we need the same for single lines of text
19:53 <+perlDreamer> then it would be clear for admins to designate
19:54 <@preaction> a PlainText form element that would strip html?
19:54 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:54 <@preaction> sounds good to me, then we could replace  some of the existing stuff with those to protect them
19:55 <+perlDreamer> yeah, that's where we need rizen to weigh in.  Because right now there's no way to tell.
19:56 <@preaction> think i should make this bug sticky until 7.3 goes stable?
19:56 <+perlDreamer> It wouldn't hurt
19:56 <@preaction> put some important-sounding title "SECURITY UPDATE: XSS vulnerability"
19:56 <+perlDreamer> do we need to make a vulnerability disclosure as well?
19:56 <@preaction> like a news item?
19:57 <@preaction> that'd be other people's decision, i'm ignorant in that department
19:57 <@preaction> I'd be for it, but the more disclosure, the more possibility for chaos
19:57 <+perlDreamer> or attack
19:57 <@rizen> do you have a patch and instructions for the defect?
19:57 <@preaction> i mean, there are probably people who simply troll CMS sites looking for vulnerability disclosures to exploit
19:57 <@rizen> if so, go to getwebgui.com and release an advisory
19:57 <@preaction> yes
19:58 <@rizen> we do not wait
19:58 <@rizen> as soon as we have a working patch, we disclose the vulnerability
19:58 <@preaction> k, something along the lines of "Security Update for WebGUI 7.2+"?
19:59 <+perlDreamer> wG < 7.3.5
19:59 <@rizen> it's a problem with all versions of WebGUI 7, right?
19:59 <@preaction> i'm going to find how far back the patch can go
19:59 <@rizen> i generally don't provide a patch file, but rather instructions on how to eliminate the patch
19:59 <@rizen> Search for this line of code
20:00 <@rizen> replace it with this line of code
20:00 <@preaction> there's a few changes in the patch file
20:00 <@preaction> but i can try
20:00 <@rizen> You'll find the line somwhere around line 100
20:00 <@rizen> yeah, but by providing instructions
20:00 <@rizen> rather than a patch file
20:00 <@rizen> it works for all versions of webgui
20:00 <@rizen> not just 1 or 2
20:01 <@rizen> Feel free to also provide the patch file if you like
20:01 <@rizen> You've already created it, so why not
20:01 <+perlDreamer> we don't know if it would work for wg < 7.0
20:01 <@rizen> but the instructions are what's important
20:01 <@rizen> i don't care if it doesn't work for less than 7.0
20:01 <@rizen> less than 7.0 isn't supported
20:01 <@rizen> but instructions will work for all versions of 7.0
20:02 <@rizen> a patch file might not
20:02 <@rizen> or rather 7.x
20:02 <@preaction> it will definately work back to 7.2.0, and probably work before that, but i'll also provide detailed instructions for if patch fails
20:02 <+perlDreamer> the patch won't fail, it will just make a broken module
20:03 <@preaction> patch -p0 < patch.txt -- can either fail or succeed, no? i'll rtfm
20:03 <+perlDreamer> no, you're right
20:04 <+perlDreamer> I'm still used to the ancient patch at work
20:04 <+perlDreamer> it will just break stuff
20:04 <@preaction> actually, it might succeed on one hunk but fail on another, and in that case it would probably break
20:04 <@preaction> so i'll advise anyone not familiar with patch, or not confident enough to restore that file from a backup to do manual editing
20:18 <@khenn> can anyone read this:
20:18 <@khenn> my $rest = join "\n", map {	sprintf '<option value="%s" %s>%0*d</option>',  $_, ((defined $value && $value == $_)? 'selected="selected"' : ''), $size, $_; } ($from..$to);
20:19 <@preaction> yes
20:19 <@khenn> I know what it's doing
20:19 <@rizen> yes
20:19 <@khenn> but that has to be the most convoluted piece of crap I've ever seen
20:19 <@rizen> indeed
20:19 <@preaction> actually i like it, the use of sprintf() at least
20:19 <@khenn> to prepad the zero?
20:20 <@khenn> yeah that's useful
20:20 <@rizen> i like the code honestly
20:20 <@khenn> I'm going to use that
20:20 <@rizen> but it should be cleaned up
20:20 <@preaction> and to keep the html/vars seperate
20:20 <@rizen> per the perl best practices
20:20 <@rizen> it shouldn't be all on one line like that
20:21 <@rizen> because it's difficult to read
20:21 <@rizen> that's chapter one of pbp
20:21 <@preaction> map is so easy to abuse, but it's so damned useful
20:21 <@khenn> I don't have the book yet =p
20:21 <@khenn> waiting for my copy still
20:21 <@rizen> oh crap
20:21 <@khenn> and you mean WBP right?
20:21 <@rizen> i'll order it today
20:21 <@rizen> yes
20:21 <@rizen> WBP
20:21 <@khenn> =)
20:22 <@khenn> but do you know why this code is stupid?
20:22 <@khenn> not because of the code itself
20:23 <@preaction> it replicates a <tmpl_loop> ?
20:23 <@khenn> but because it should be WebGUI::Form::selectBox()
20:23 <@khenn> I couldn't post it all here
20:23 <+perlDreamer> lol
20:30 <@preaction> i won't pick the nit that using WebGUI::Form::* is mixing HTML with code :p
20:31 <@preaction> i've got an advisory written up, does anyone want to proofread / make suggestions before i post?
20:33 <@preaction> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/security-update-cross-site-scripting-vulnerability <- the complete text of the advisory I will be posting to getwebgui.com
20:34 <@rizen> nicely done
20:34 <@rizen> only one addition
20:35 <@rizen> tell them that this bug is fixed in 7.3.5 and above
20:35 <@preaction> k
20:40 -!- perlDreamer is now known as perlShoveler
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21:13 <+crythias> http://kevininscoe.com/pub/Nowee.opensource.png
21:14 -!- perlShoveler is now known as perlDreamer
21:15 <+crythias> B U T FUL
21:16 <+perlDreamer> do you mid-east type people shovel snow a lot?
21:16 <+crythias> What's snow?
21:17 <+perlDreamer> uh, think shaved ice falling out of the sky
21:17 <+crythias> like italian ice?
21:21 <+perlDreamer> yes, no syrup though
21:26 <@khenn> in WebGUI::Session::DateTime ...
21:26 <@khenn> $temp = $self->session->user->profileField('dateFormat') || '%M/%D/%y';
21:26 <@khenn> should that instead be :
21:26 <@khenn> $temp = $self->session->user->profileField('dateFormat') || '%y-%M-%D';   ... ?
21:26 <@khenn> intl format the default?
21:26 <@khenn> line 316
21:27 <@rizen> it doesn't matter at all
21:27 <@rizen> the only time that will ever be used 
21:27 <@rizen> is if the site admin somehow screws up their database
21:27 <@rizen> and deletes the default setting from the user profiling system
21:27 <@rizen> which isn't usually possible
21:27 <@rizen> unless they're really fucking around
21:28 <@rizen> the only reason that is there is as a fail safe
21:28 <@khenn> I see
21:32 <@khenn> Doug, I'm adding WebGUI date str conversions to your DateTime package (which rules btw)
21:34 <@khenn> JT, if I add a brand new API method which doesn't affect anything in WebGUI to something, do I still need to wait until we branch to check it in?
21:34 <@khenn> I'm guessing yes
21:38 <@rizen> yes
21:39 <@rizen> the word "add" implies next major revision
21:39 <+perlDreamer> don't ask about the branch
21:39 <+perlDreamer> It makes him mad
21:39 <@rizen> that's it 5
21:39 <+perlDreamer> Just like Mongo
21:39 <@rizen> 6
21:40 -!- diakopter [i=diakopte@pdpc/supporter/active/diakopter] has joined #webgui
21:41 <@rizen> diakopter is that a reference to Sim City?
21:42 < diakopter> not when I came up with it.  I couldn't find any hits on google for that spelling.  Was there a diakopter of sorts in Sim City?
21:42 <+crythias> I can't believe it's not pudding.
21:43 <@rizen> i don't know how it was spelled
21:44 <@rizen> but the diacopter in the sim city was the news helicopter that would fly over when you had a disaster break out in the city
21:44 < diakopter> ah.
21:46  * diakopter searches the long channel member list for snapc0unt
21:49 <+perlDreamer> no snapc0unt today
21:49 <+perlDreamer> I could use some help grok'ing this line
21:49 <+perlDreamer> my $selfUrlHtml = WebGUI::HTML::format($self->getUrl, 'text');
21:50 <@rizen> not sure why anyone would use that code
21:50 <@rizen> but it would strip any html out of the url if there were any
21:50 <@rizen> but the url system wouldn't allow that anyway
21:50 <@rizen> so it's unnecessary
21:51 <+perlDreamer> would it break form variables by encoding the ampersand?
21:51 <@rizen> perhaps, but webgui doesn't generate urls with ampersands in it
22:09 <+perlDreamer> I wonder what Sam Kinnison would be like on IRC...
22:10 <@rizen> like me, only worse
22:11 <+perlDreamer> I may channel him
22:13 <@rizen> what was it he used to say
22:14 <@rizen> FUUUUUUUUCCCCKKK IIIIIIIITTTT!!!
22:14 <+perlDreamer> aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:14 <+perlDreamer> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:14 <+perlDreamer> aaahhhh          aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:14 <+perlDreamer> he must have given great sermons
22:14 <@rizen> indeed
22:19  * diakopter wonders who Sam Kinnison is
22:19 <@rizen> ah the sheltered youth
22:19 <@rizen> http://www.samkinison.org/
22:21 <+perlDreamer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Kinison
22:22 <@rizen> comedian, actor, singer, and preacher
22:22 <@rizen> his comic act was famous for his loud yelling rants
22:22 <+perlDreamer> worm food
22:22 <@rizen> oh yeah, and he died of an od
22:27 <@khenn> I have to say, the WebGUI::DateTime is much cooler than WebGUI::Session::DateTime
22:27 <@khenn> though Doug fucked up the constructor
22:28 -!- perlDreamer is now known as lunchDreamer
22:30  * khenn slaps preaction and his crappy if/else constructor
22:30  * rizen slaps khenn for slapping preaction
22:31  * PedersenMJ slaps rizen, just to get in on the slap-happiness
22:31  * rizen then slaps kheen for slapping preaction
22:31  * rizen beats PedersenMJ down for not knowing his place
22:32  * rizen then slaps himself while saying "woop-woop-woop"
22:32 < PedersenMJ> Yeeha! My morale is better already :)
22:33  * khenn khenn steals the rest of rizen's Sopranos DVDs
22:33  * khenn doesn't know the proper way to use emotes
22:33  * rizen takes a nap since i didn't go to bed until 5am
22:33  * diakopter spits into the wind. eeewwwww.
22:35 < PedersenMJ> I went to bed *way* earlier. Hopefully, tonight can be a normal night, so I can work out some of the details of a theme, and get it uploaded. Well, maybe not that far. I'm not *that* good yet.
22:51 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has joined #webgui
22:59 -!- lunchDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
23:00 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: how's the back today?
23:00 <@rizen> broken
23:01 <@rizen> he's in a cast now
23:02 <+perlDreamer> short nap
23:02 <@rizen> i never went
23:02 <@rizen> there will be plenty of time to sleep when i'm dead
23:18 <+perlDreamer> can I tag along tomorrow when you're bug fixing?
23:24 -!- diakopter [i=diakopte@pdpc/supporter/active/diakopter] has quit []
23:31 <@rizen> talking to me?
23:31 <+perlDreamer> yup
23:32 <@rizen> what does that mean
23:32 <@rizen> are you coming to madison?
23:32 <+perlDreamer> not until September
23:32 <+perlDreamer> maybe over IM/IRC
23:32 <+perlDreamer> it would probably slow you down a lot
23:32 <@rizen> i'll be on im all day
23:32 <@khenn> anyone know how I can fix this:
23:32 <@khenn> (4264) Apache2::SizeLimit httpd process too big, exiting at SIZE=72724 KB  SHARE=4764 KB  REQUESTS=6 LIFETIME=0 seconds
23:32 <@rizen> that's not a bug
23:32 <@khenn> yeah I know
23:32 <@rizen> it's supposed to be happening
23:32 <@khenn> I just want to know how to fix it
23:32 <@khenn> oh
23:32 <@rizen> so why do you aks how to fix it
23:32 <@khenn> then nm
23:33 <@khenn> I thought I could change an apache config setting
23:33 <@khenn> and stop that from being thrown
23:33 <@rizen> you can have it happen less often
23:33 <@rizen> the processess should last longer than 0 seconds
23:33 <@rizen> edit /data/wre/prereqs/apache/conf/startup.pl
23:33 <@rizen> raise the values in there
23:33 <@rizen> first tell me what they are 
23:34 <@rizen> and i can tell you what to raise them to
23:34 <@khenn> MAX_PROCESS_SIZE= 100000
23:34 <@rizen> perlDreamer: i'm on support and bug fixing tomorrow
23:34 <+perlDreamer> ok
23:34 <@khenn> MAX_UNSHARED_SIZE = 25000
23:34 <@rizen> so how much bug fixing i do depends upon how much support i do
23:34 <@rizen> that one
23:34 <@rizen> should be 75000
23:34 <@khenn> CHECK_EVERY_N_REQUESTS = 5
23:34 <@khenn> ok
23:35 <@khenn> thanks
23:35 <@rizen> restart after changing
23:35 <@rizen> but yeah
23:35 <@rizen> i'll be glad to have you tag along perlDreamer
23:36 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
23:36 <+perlDreamer> er, Sensei
23:42 <+perlDreamer> what do the a1 .. a20 fields do in the Poll?
23:42 <@rizen> store the answers
23:43 <@rizen> the possible responses to the question
23:43 <+perlDreamer> okay
23:44 <+perlDreamer> I'm halfway done with the ISAs for the wobjects
23:44 <+perlDreamer> not sure if it there will be time to write the template variable browser though
23:44 <@rizen> template variable browser?
23:45 <@rizen> you mean for a template editor?
23:45 <+perlDreamer> yes
23:45 <@rizen> in due time dood
23:45 <@rizen> it doesn't have to be written overnight
23:49 < perlm> Can someone point me in the direction for how to go about creating your own look and feel for WebGUI?
23:49 <+perlDreamer> that's all done with templates
23:49 <+perlDreamer> Style template control header, footer and nav
23:50 <@rizen> webgui done right has 2 chapters on this
23:50 <@rizen> PedersenMJ has also recently learned how, so he can provide some tips
23:51 <+perlDreamer> rizen, do you mean WDR or the Primer?
23:51 <@rizen> WDR
23:52 < perlm> I know about templates and css, I'm more curious about how it is all layed out.  Do all the style info reside in an Import Node?
23:52 <+perlDreamer> they can
23:52 <+perlDreamer> but aren't required to be in any particular place
23:53 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has quit ["Leaving."]
23:55 <@khenn> a good example is to create a demo and look how the style template is set up there
23:55 <+perlDreamer> demo.plainblack.com
23:55 <@khenn> if you edit the page, you can backtrack to the style template
--- Day changed Wed Jan 17 2007
00:01 < perlm> I've got an install on the test web server and am now just trying to map our current look to the test install.
00:01 < perlm> But our web guy isn't much help, so it is up to me
00:01 <+perlDreamer> if he can segment your web page into distinct parts, it would help
00:02 < perlm> no, I don't think he can do that.
00:03 < perlm> style 3 has the same layout, so I'll just start replacing images with our and then see which ones need altering to fix the style3 layout.
00:03 <+perlDreamer> be sure to make a copy of it to work on
00:03 < perlm> hah
00:03 < perlm> but where woudl I put this copy?
00:04 <+perlDreamer> right next to the original
00:06 <+perlDreamer> undef the import node
00:06 < perlm> I used the duplicate button in the asset manager
00:07 <+perlDreamer> that will work just fine
00:26 <@khenn> does modperl still bomb sometimes when you set global stuff?
00:26 <@khenn> ie I'd like to do:
00:27 <@khenn> er nm
00:27 <@khenn> it won't work anyway
00:35 < PedersenMJ> Hey guys. Sorry for the idle, been in another department.
00:36 <@rizen> i know you've already changed your mind, but setting globals is never a good idea
00:36 < PedersenMJ> perlDreamer: Back is *much* better. Which means I can walk more or less comfortably today. Which isn't saying too much for being back to normal :)
00:36 <@rizen> that's why we went through the pain of the new session system rewrite
00:36 <@rizen> to get rid of globals
00:37 < PedersenMJ> perlm: The duplicate button won't be enough.
00:37 < PedersenMJ> Duplicate only copies one level, not an entire tree.
00:39 < PedersenMJ> Now, for help on how to do a whole different theme/look, it's not as tough as you might think. Dunno if you'll be active before I go home, but if not, I'll be happy to help out later tonight (generally speaking between 9:30pm and midnight EST).
00:39 < PedersenMJ> And I go home at about 6:30pm EST.
00:41 -!- perlDreamer is now known as snowDreamer
00:45 <@preaction> can i do an upgrade on a site that doesn't have an apache instance configured yet? basically can i use the WRE 0.7.2 to upgrade a 6.7.7 site to 7.2.3?
00:45 <@rizen> absolutely
00:45 <@rizen> i do that all the time
00:45 <@preaction> k, thanks
00:47 < PedersenMJ> Okay, now must go back to other dept. bbiab
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00:55 < perlm> PedersenMJ, I created a new folder and copied everything.  But css + layout is so tediously boring.  I bet PB will do it for $1k.
00:55 < perlm> Probably have an expert.
00:55 < perlm> I need to make WebGUI look like http://casr.ou.edu/
01:01 <@khenn> rizen: I'm not talking global to WebGUI, I'm talking global to the package
01:02 <@rizen> are you using "our"
01:02 <@khenn> no
01:02 <@khenn> my
01:02 <@khenn> but it doesn't work anyway
01:02 <@khenn> so it's moot
01:02 <@rizen> and are you explicitly destroying it
01:02 <@khenn> again
01:02 <@khenn> I'm not doing it
01:02 <@preaction> you could "use vars"
01:02 <@rizen> i understand that
01:03 <@rizen> i'm just saying don't
01:03 <@rizen> i'll shut up now
01:03 <@rizen> perlm: making a design like that should be relatively trivial
01:03 <@rizen> the process for taking a design like that and putting it into webgui is described in detail 
01:03 <@rizen> getting url
01:04 <@rizen> http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style
01:04 <@rizen> if you have any level of support, hosting, or have purchased webgui done right outright
01:04 <@rizen> you can access that page
01:05 < perlm> I accessed it and I have none of those.......
01:05 < perlm> in fact, a whole new bunch of drop downs has opened up in Designers that I've never seen before.
01:07 <@rizen> you can buy it here: https://www.plainblack.com/services/wdr
01:07 <@rizen> if you're interested
01:09 < perlm> Our Web Guy desperately needs it.  But I'm not sure I coudl get him to actually read the manual.
01:09 <@rizen> our design team will do it for you for about $400
01:10 <@rizen> send an email to design@plainblack.com if interested
01:10 <@rizen> preaction
01:10 < perlm> But I'll see if i can get the money for a contract.  We're planning on moving everything over to WebGUI, so it could be worth it.
01:10 <@rizen> you here?
01:10 < perlm> brb, going to see if we can shake up $400 for the design.
01:13 < PedersenMJ> perlm: For the record, http://www.nochara.org/ took me less than 8 hours to convert. I think it was only about 6 hours, actually. And that was going from zero knowledge.
01:14 < PedersenMJ> The only thing I had going for me was a decent programming background, and even that didn't do very much at all.
01:15 < perlm> No offense but that is pretty straightforward.  No image edges that have to butt up against other images/text
01:16 < PedersenMJ> And you've already got the CSS done. Speaking from my own experience, it's almost not worth the $400 to make plainblack work on it.
01:16 < PedersenMJ> perlm: Step 1 for *any* template: Make the page look right without dealing with making a real template. You've already got the hard work done.
01:17 < perlm> I already have a page+css
01:17 < PedersenMJ> Exactly my point.
01:18 < PedersenMJ> The "conversion to a webgui template" process will only take you a few hours, and will teach you/whomever a bit about webgui in the process.
01:19 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and I don't take offense. I didn't make the design, I found it at a free web site design site. I just made it into a webgui package. You can even download it, if you wish, and import it into your webgui site. You can find it at http://www.plainblack.com/user_contributions/user_contributions/packages/burned-theme#DcmGtgHJ8Eoh_KxAtuiqWA
01:20 < PedersenMJ> Whereever you choose to import it, it will make a folder named "Burned".
01:21 < perlm> sweet
01:21 < PedersenMJ> And all the files which make up that theme will be underneath that folder.
01:21 < perlm> Thanks.  will be good to look at.
01:21 < PedersenMJ> I promise you, as difficult as you might think it is, it is a hundred times easier than you can imagine. Mostly, it involves putting a few special lines of code into your page, and that's it.
01:22 < PedersenMJ> Mostly.
01:22 < PedersenMJ> brb
01:22 < perlm> k
01:22 <@rizen> i agree,it's pretty easy
01:22 <@rizen> and i'd much rather see you do it yourself than have us do it
01:22 <@rizen> cuz that means there will be one more educated person in the community
01:22 <@rizen> not sure if that means anything to you
01:23 <@rizen> but for what it's worth, there it is
01:23 < PedersenMJ> You see, it's not me trying to take money from rizen. He said the same thing to me.
01:24 < PedersenMJ> And, now that I've got one done, I've got a good three more that I'm planning on, and then one every week or two for a long while to come.
01:25 < perlm> Thanks rizen.  WebGUI is part of the Perl community and I certainly want to see it grow.
01:26 < perlm> In fact, one of the (plethora) of ideas I have for side gigs is to use the very cheap hosting at PB and build sites for small businesses.
01:26 < perlm> but first I probably need to know how to build a site myself :P
01:27 < PedersenMJ> That tutorial mentioned earlier is pretty decent. The one thing that jumps out at me is to be careful, and where it says carotFileUrl type in ^FileUrl
01:27 < PedersenMJ> I seem to recall a few other *very* minor issues, but I need to work through my next theme to properly document it.
01:28 -!- snowDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
01:28 < perlm> Yeah, I've asked the web guy to see about getting the $125 for the educational package.
01:29 <@rizen> perlm: we have lots of people using the agency hosting to do exactly that
01:29 <@rizen> and making a good living at it
01:29 <@rizen> several of them have quit their day jobs and do nothing but that now
01:29 < perlm> Wow!  That is music to my ears :)
01:29 <@rizen> the recurring income is pretty good once you get going
01:30 < perlm> One, it is good to know WebGUI+Perl are growing, and Two, people are making a living doing something I'm thinking about doing.
01:30 <@rizen> one of the people doing that has over $1200 per month in profit from her agency hosted sites
01:30 < PedersenMJ> Heck, I bought access to WDR, for me, personally, without going through work. It's worth it.
01:30 <@preaction> CentOS4 corresponds to the RHEL4 WRE correct?
01:30 <@rizen> yup
01:31 <@rizen> you can check the os version by checking /etc/redhat-release
01:31 <@preaction> yeah, i had to ask #rhel about that one ;)
01:31 <@preaction> the mysql server just took longer than setup allowed to start up for some reason
01:37 < perlm> I see what you guys were saying.  It is basically just creating a Template::Toolkit template like you would normally use and putting in special WebGUI macros to be called.  And I probably should pay for the info packet since it has this type of information all neatly organized.
01:37 <+perlDreamer> HTML::Template
01:37 <+perlDreamer> much simpler to work with
01:37 < perlm> even better :)
01:38 <+perlDreamer> if you're more familiar with T::T, you can plug it in, but all of wG's default templates at H::T
01:38 < perlm> I've used both in equal amouts of "little" so whichever was good enough for JT, is good enough for me.
01:43 <@preaction> H::T is more template and less magic
01:45 < PedersenMJ> Now, sorry to say, but time for me to run. Will bbl.
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01:51 < perlm> Okay, I'm off to the races.  Thanks for the help, and have a good one.
01:51 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]"]
01:58 -!- Radix-wrk [n=Jesse@203.161.68.67] has joined #webgui
01:58 <+perlDreamer> morning, Radix
01:59 <@preaction> why would mysql need 400 megabytes of memory?
02:00 <@preaction> er.. rather mysqld?
02:00 <+perlDreamer> big query?
02:00 <+perlDreamer> caching?
02:00 <@preaction> holy crap, that IS how big it is...
02:00 <@preaction> i'm getting out-of-memory errors trying to do these upgrades
02:00 <+perlDreamer> transactional db
02:00 <@preaction> also firefox leaks like a sieve... anyway
02:01 <@rizen> normal operation on plainblack.com
02:01 <@rizen> mysql uses about 350mb
02:02 <@preaction> perhaps it's perl that's out of memory
02:02 <@rizen> how much ram is on this machine you're working on?
02:02 <@preaction> looks like only 512m
02:02 <@rizen> ah
02:02 <@rizen> webgui requires 1GB+
02:02 <@preaction> 678m, but only 75m free
02:03 <@preaction> geniuses decides 12gig of swap
02:03 <@rizen> what
02:03 <@rizen> crazy
02:03 <@rizen> you may also want to edit my.cnf
02:03 <@rizen> to lower the amount of ram it's using
02:03 <@rizen> if it's mysql
02:03 <@preaction> if i can make mysql nicer, i might be able to push through the perl part
02:11 < Radix-wrk> morning all
02:12 < Radix-wrk> cheers for the proactive info on the xss problem btw.. great to see patches given for all versions of webgui, not just the latest :)
02:12 <+perlDreamer> preaction++
02:14 < Radix-wrk> Now we just need preaction to fill out his People Behind Webgui interview questions :)
02:18 < Radix-wrk> while I'm doing this patching.. can I ask - in recoverPasswordFinish there's a line - $password .= chr(ord('A') + randint(32)); in a loop which seems to generate the new password.  I assume randint(32) could be reduced to randint(26) if we just want the letters from A-Z in the password, right?  (got users complaining about all sorts of special characters being generated in their passwords and this looks like an easy fix)
02:18 <+perlDreamer> it sounds right, but it would be good to check an ASCII table
02:19 <+perlDreamer> nope
02:20 <+perlDreamer> punctuation is from 91 to 96
02:20 <+perlDreamer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII
02:20 <+perlDreamer> how about $password =~ s/\W+//g;
02:20 <+perlDreamer> that would allow underscores in the password, though
02:21 <+perlDreamer> $password =~ tr/A-Za-z0-9//cd;
02:21 <+perlDreamer> for pure alphanumerics
02:21 < Radix-wrk> 65+26 = 91
02:21 <@preaction> Radix-wrk: i already did, Roy's waiting on Steve to properly format my pichar iirc
02:21 < Radix-wrk> but i assume randint generates from 0-(x-1)
02:21 <@preaction> why complaining? they just have to copy/paste
02:22 <@preaction> then they should IMMEDIATELY change their password
02:22 <@preaction> easy as sneezing
02:22 < Radix-wrk> seems easy.. but for some reason some passwords are impossible to enter apparently
02:22 <@rizen> radix: traditionally we always release security patches for older versions
02:22 < Radix-wrk> we've had numerous support issues with it
02:22 <@preaction> but yes, reducing that to 25 should fix it
02:23 < Radix-wrk> the [\' chars I assume
02:23 <@preaction> they don't have US-101/2/3 keyboards?
02:23 < Radix-wrk> we have customers all around the world
02:24 <@preaction> that'd make sense
02:24 < Radix-wrk> about 4500 users last time I checked
02:24 <@preaction> but still, those keys should exist. at any rate, i'll quit my whining
02:24 < Radix-wrk> every time we do a mailout telling them of new content on our site we get hundreds of requests for forgotten passwords
02:24 <@preaction> hooray for lusers!
02:24 <+perlDreamer> that's easy, don't tell them about new content
02:24 <+perlDreamer> :)
02:24 < Radix-wrk> should be as simple as cut/paste I agree, but the volume of complaints tends to suggest there might be a problem :)
02:25 < Radix-wrk> easy fix
02:26 <@preaction> easier fix than reeducating at least
02:38 < Radix-wrk> that patch didn't work for 7.0.8 btw - guess line numbers have changed in 7.3.4, but changes were easy manually thanks to your 5 steps :)
02:42 <@rizen> see preaction
02:42 <@rizen> =)
02:42 <@rizen> that's why i said those were more important than the patch
02:43 < Radix-wrk> well thanks to you then JT :)
02:43 <@rizen> no no
02:44 <@rizen> thanks goes to preaction
02:44 <@rizen> he's the one that did the work
02:44 <@rizen> it all goes to him
02:44 <@rizen> he's just learning how all this works though
02:44 <+perlDreamer> what does rewriteUrls do on the HttpProxy?
02:44 <@rizen> so that was just some advice
02:44 <@rizen> rewrites the urls so it actually works as a proxy
02:44 <@rizen> so you can click on links
02:44 <@rizen> and move through pages
02:44 <@rizen> and you stay within the webgui site
02:44 <@rizen> without it
02:45 <@rizen> only the first page is proxied
02:45 <+perlDreamer> then what is followExternal?
02:45 <@rizen> and after that you'll click through to the real site
02:45 <@rizen> links outside of the original domain
02:45 <@rizen> and it only applies if you have rewriteUrls turned on
02:46 <+perlDreamer> thanks, dude
02:46 <+perlDreamer> the Http Proxy docs need a rewrite
02:46 <@rizen> probably
02:59 -!- perlDreamer is now known as perlCooking
03:02 < Radix-wrk> You cooking the whole camel?
03:04 < Radix-wrk> Actually I've eaten wild camel once - cooked slowly in a lovely stew.. was delicious :)
03:05 <@rizen> i ate camel once when i was in oz
03:05 <@rizen> we went to some restaurant that served all kinds of exotic meats
03:06 <@rizen> i had buffalo, camel, some sort of reptile
03:06 <@rizen> i think maybe croc
03:06 <@rizen> or maybe it was snake
03:06 <@rizen> don't remember
03:06 <@rizen> and then also kangaroo
03:06 <@rizen> they all tasted like crap
03:07 <@rizen> it was downtown sydney.
03:07 <@rizen> some restaurant up in the sky that spins
03:09 < Radix-wrk> heh
03:11 < Radix-wrk> well this was wild camel, that a friend of the family hunted and shot up north of WA.  Apparently quite a lot of wild camels out there - bit of a problem for the locals even, so hunting them isn't an issue.  It was very very tender because of the way it was cooked and was lovely.
03:12 < Radix-wrk> kangaroo steaks are nice too, but you have to be careful not to overcook them or they become tough and rubbery.  Done right they should melt in your mouth.
03:14 < Radix-wrk> kangaroo steaks you can get at the local supermarket easy, but camel, snake, croc, etc are pretty exotic even for us and aren't the easiest things to try (here in WA at least).
03:14 <@rizen> this place must not have  known what they were doing
03:14 <@rizen> cuz i'm telling you, it was bad
03:14 <@rizen> one of the worst meals i've ever had
03:14 < Radix-wrk> heh
03:16 <@preaction> Radix-wrk: the patch didn't work because of the line numbers, but it would've been possible to change the options of the patch program to make it fit. the '-p' option specifies the "fuzziness" of the search. '-p0' means it must match exactly. '-p2' means it can have 2 lines of sway one way or the other, i think you can have up to 5 levels.
03:17 <@preaction> also: if you open the patch in a text editor, it's easy to see what needs to change, the lines with "-" at the beginning are removed, and the ones with "+" at the beginning are added
03:17 < Radix-wrk> preaction, yup, tis cool.. manually applied the changes and it works fine :)
03:17 <@preaction> i've been sitting here for 45 minutes watching a 500kB/s connection try to move what must be a gig of uploads data...
03:18 < Radix-wrk> Sounds like fun :)
03:18 <@rizen> yuk
03:19 <@preaction> eh, i could've been playing DDR
03:19 <@rizen> i hope you're doing something else to pass the time
03:19 <@preaction> i mean.. cardiovascular workout
03:19 <@rizen> DDR?
03:19 <@preaction> Dance Dance Revolution
03:48 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. Seagate have announced 15k rpm 2.5" drives - I want one for my gaming lappy! :)
03:52 <@preaction> so this move has now taken 1:15 minutes of their billable time..
03:52 <@rizen> k
03:53 <@preaction> i haven't even gotten to the fun of installing this php app, which i'm hoping works as CGI
03:54 <@rizen> php?
03:54 <@rizen> we don't do php
03:54 <@rizen> did vrby agree to this?
03:55 <@preaction> i imagine it wasn't said that it was a php app
03:55 <@preaction> just a "webmail app"
03:57 <@preaction> actually from some of the language in these mails, perhaps it was Roy who agreed to an unknown "webmail program", at any rate
03:58 <@rizen> what is the name of this client?
03:58 <@preaction> squirrelmail
03:59 <@rizen> the client - company
03:59 <@rizen> not the program
03:59 <@preaction> oh
03:59 <@preaction> finditco - Mike Ferren
03:59 <@rizen> k thanks
03:59 <@preaction> i believe this is ad-hoc
04:01 < xdanger> is there any good webmail progs out there in oss?
04:01 <@rizen> i've heard squirrelmail is ok
04:01 <@rizen> but honestly, it's mostly all crap
04:01 <@rizen> the only thing even close to cool is hula-mail
04:01 <@rizen> and that's only alpha
04:03 < xdanger> Isn't novell abandoning hula?
04:03 < xdanger> And I really want only a webmail (maybe calendar) but not the server...
04:04 <@preaction> far easier to just set up pop3md or pop3ad
04:05 <@rizen> novell is, but that doesn't mean it will go away
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04:06 <@rizen> as far as stand alone webmail the only thing i've heard of being good is squirllmail
04:06 <@rizen> i tried out Courier webmail once, but it was pretty basic.
04:10 < xdanger> roundcube.net is pretty slick
04:10 < xdanger> but it's a beta 0.1 php script ajax thingy... that creeps me =)
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04:38 <@khenn> Is there a reason we have HTML::Template includes turned off?
04:38 <@khenn> is it insecure?
04:38 <@preaction> H::T knows nothing of WebGUI assets
04:38 <@khenn> so?
04:38 <@preaction> so you can only include templates from the filesystem
04:39 <@khenn> rigt
04:39 <@khenn> right
04:39 <@preaction> which most webgui users don't have access to / want to use
04:39 <@khenn> why can't we do that?
04:39 <@khenn> I see
04:39 <@preaction> otherwise insecurity, i don't think so
04:39 <@khenn> that makes sense
04:39 <@khenn> thanks
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05:38 <@rizen> i wish i knew who used the hack to deface our site
05:38 <@rizen> telling us about it is one thing
05:38 <@rizen> defacing the site to make a point is completely something else
05:41 <@khenn> yeah that sucked
05:55 <@khenn> that's all for me folks
05:55 <@khenn> asta la tomorrow
05:55 <@khenn> hasta even
05:55 -!- khenn [n=fdillon@66-190-54-175.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
05:59 -!- snapcount [n=snapcoun@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
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06:02 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
06:02 <@rizen> that rocks
06:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by rizen
06:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by rizen
06:03 <+perlCooking> wouldn't you at least have the hacker's IP address in the logs
06:03 <+perlCooking> and maybe an email address
06:03 -!- perlCooking is now known as perlDreamer
06:03 <@rizen> you're still away
06:03 <@rizen> you can't be talking
06:03 <@rizen> hehe
06:04 <+perlDreamer> I'm back
06:04 <@snapcount> what did you cook me?  I'm hungry
06:04 <+perlDreamer> Denver omlettes, cinnamin chip toast and hazelnut cocoa with whipped cream
06:04 <@rizen> not according to my screen
06:04 <@rizen> you're still away
06:04 <@rizen> you're greyed outr
06:05 <+perlDreamer> weird
06:05 <+perlDreamer> I feel here
06:05 <@rizen> did you type /away
06:05 <@rizen> with no param
06:05 <+perlDreamer> no
06:05 <@rizen> do that
06:05 <+perlDreamer>    
06:05 <+perlDreamer> uh
06:05 <+perlDreamer> now what
06:05 <@rizen> hmm..looks like your program doesn't do that
06:06 <@rizen> did you notice a difference on my name in your client?
06:06 <@snapcount> pinch your nose and tilt your head back... start saying your abc's alternating between forward and backwards beginning with J
06:06 <@snapcount> J K I L H ...
06:07 <+perlDreamer> nope
06:07 <+perlDreamer> so, 'bout tracking yon hacker...
06:09 <@rizen> webgui doesn't store an ip with a user account
06:09 <@rizen> and the session is already gone
06:09 <@rizen> so how should i find this user?
06:09 <+perlDreamer> what about apache logs?
06:09 <@rizen> oh...wait..userLoginLog
06:10 <+perlDreamer> and the bug report should have a unique URL for tracking it down
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06:13 <@rizen> ok
06:13 <@rizen> ip is 66.67.114.20
06:13 <@rizen> compared that with previous logins
06:13 <@rizen> no other users logged in with that ip
06:13 <@rizen> there are 2 active visitor sessions open with that ip
06:14 <+perlDreamer> there's no web server at that address
06:14 <@rizen> both created around the same time as the hacker
06:14 <@rizen> the person is in rochester
06:14 <@rizen> cpe-66-67-114-20.rochester.res.rr.com
06:14 <+perlDreamer> yep
06:14 <@rizen> and use roadrunner internet
06:14 <@rizen> but billions of people use that
06:15 <@rizen> ok millions
06:15 <@rizen> but still
06:15 <@rizen> no help
06:16 <+perlDreamer> we also have the name used on the RFE
06:16 <+perlDreamer> astalavista
06:16 <@rizen> frank says that
06:17 <@rizen> but so do other people
06:17 <+perlDreamer> try googling for it
06:17 < Radix-wrk> name of a rather infamous search engine
06:17 < Radix-wrk> astalavista.box.sk
06:18 <+perlDreamer> also name of a group of hackers
06:18 <+perlDreamer> do we have any German speakers in the channel?
06:19 <@rizen> this isn't going to go anywhere
06:20 < PedersenMJ> no hablo aleman, lo siento decir.
06:20 < PedersenMJ> Solo hablo ingles y espanol.
06:21 < Radix-wrk> Only German I know is from old WWII movies.
06:21 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@68.51.234.189] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
06:21 <+perlDreamer> Schnell!
06:21 < Radix-wrk> Nein Nein! Mein Kampf
06:21 <+perlDreamer> Das boot
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Mach schnell!
06:21 < Radix-wrk> Spracken Si Deutsche
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Nein
06:21 < Radix-wrk> Auf wiedersehen
06:21 <@rizen> the attacker was referred from this site
06:21 <@rizen> http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/22051/info
06:22 <@rizen> apparently they aren't part of our community
06:24 <+perlDreamer> you're right, this isn't going anywhere
06:26 <+perlDreamer> oh well
06:26 <+perlDreamer> we broke 9000 automated help and i18n tests today
06:26 <@rizen> too bad too
06:26 <@rizen> cuz even if i found him 
06:27 <@rizen> i could only kill him once
06:27 <@rizen> but i could have tortured him for a while
06:27 <@rizen> and gave him blood transfusions to keep him alive
06:27 <@rizen> so i can torture him some more
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... hey, JT, can I take back that slap I gave you earlier?
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I suppose in a way he did us a favor by letting us know about th exploit
06:28 <@rizen> true
06:28 <@rizen> i want to know about that sort of stuff
06:29 <@rizen> but i don't want to be slapped in the face while finding out about it
06:29 <@rizen> that sort of thing is unacceptable
06:29 <@rizen> unlike some software companies, we take security seriously
06:30 <+perlDreamer> an email to the dev list would have been better
06:30 <+perlDreamer> or to PB privately
06:31 <@rizen> either way would have been great
06:34 < PedersenMJ> BTW, since I know there's worry about attacks, I did just update the Burned theme I uploaded the other day. Small update, for the css stylesheet, but it was me, and not a bot.
06:34 <@rizen> the attacks aren't anywhere near that serious
06:35 <@rizen> you know...not to toot my own horn or anything, but when i designed the asset system
06:35 <@rizen> i was brilliant
06:35 < PedersenMJ> Well, I see discussion of one, and wanted to make sure you knew this was a legit update, as opposed to something nefarious going on.
06:35 <@rizen> and now looking back on all the assets created
06:35 <@rizen> i didn't use the api as efficiently as i should have
06:36 <+perlDreamer> you think there's more to wring out?
06:36 <@rizen> absolutely
06:36 <@rizen> for example
06:36 <@rizen> there's a lot of processing in processPropertiesFromForm post
06:36 <@rizen> that should instead be placed into parameter filters
06:37 <@rizen> see the fixUrl method as an example
06:37 <@rizen> in Asset.pm
06:37 <@rizen> i'm adding a fixTitle one right now that will fix this HTML problem system-wide
06:37 <+perlDreamer> we could also use a javascript escaping function
06:38 <@rizen> WebGUI::HTML does it
06:38 <@rizen> WebGUI::HTML::filter
06:38 <@rizen> will remove it
06:38 <+perlDreamer> uh, to safely escape string to pass into javascript
06:39 <+perlDreamer> quotes, newlines and the like
06:39 <@rizen> oh
06:39 <@rizen> that is handled by the templating engine
06:39 < PedersenMJ> Woohoo! Something else I just found, and will try to keep in place for future templates: Burned validates: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nochara.org%2Fhome%3Fop%3Dauth%3Bmethod%3Dlogout
06:39 <@rizen> <tmpl_var name="tmplVariableName" escape="JS">
06:40 <+perlDreamer> will that work if the js is created inside wG instead of in the template?
06:40 <@rizen> no
06:40 <@rizen> but js shouldn't be created in webgui
06:40 <@rizen> generally speaking
06:41 <@rizen> i know it sometimes is
06:41 <@rizen> but that's pretty rare
06:43 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: even if you generate it in the code, you still have to send it to a template right?  So why do you have to escape it in wG?
06:44 <+perlDreamer> well, this is what I was thinking.
06:44 <+perlDreamer> var foo = <tmpl_var myVar escape="JS"> is one thing
06:45 <+perlDreamer> $var->{foo} = qq-var one = "one"; var two = $two;- is another entirely
06:45 <+perlDreamer> in the 2nd case, it would mistakenly escape the quotes for the constant
06:48 <+perlDreamer> snapcount is either deep in thought or thinking of polite ways to tell me I'm an id10t
06:49 < PedersenMJ> I'm neither, for what it's worth. I'm working on understanding variables. I actually have need of them in my next template (this first one didn't use them at all).
06:49 <+perlDreamer> okay, JT, one last rabbit trail.  He probably used a demo system to practice the hack.  Can you see if there are any records of that on demo.pb.com?
06:50 <@rizen> all demos from that era are already gone
06:50 <@rizen> 24 hour existence
06:51 <+perlDreamer> okay, I give
06:51 <@rizen> i'll look, but my guess is it was created before 10:51pm
06:53 <@rizen> yup
06:53 <@rizen> they were on the demo server
06:53 <@rizen> 27 hours ago
06:53 <@rizen> however, we don't keep actual http access logs on the demo server
06:54 <@rizen> so there's no way to know which demo they used
06:54 <@rizen> even if it were still there
06:56 <+perlDreamer> okay.  Thanks for checking JT
06:58 <+perlDreamer> and I'm now 0 for 2
06:58 <+perlDreamer> the particular bug I was looking at that needed JS quoting can be fixed in the template
06:58 <+perlDreamer> do we have a scheduled release for 7.3.5 tomorrow?
06:59 <@rizen> yeah, whenever roy gets to it tomorrow
06:59 <@rizen> =)
06:59 <+perlDreamer> I might be able to close this but out before the release then
06:59 <@rizen> he has class at 4:30 eastern, so i'm guessing before that
06:59 <+perlDreamer> that's 1:30 my time
06:59 <+perlDreamer> close
07:00 <@rizen> yeah...but that's when he goes to class
07:00 <@rizen> so he'll start on it way before that
07:00 <+perlDreamer> okay
07:00 <@snapcount> ok Colin
07:00 <@rizen> figure that if you don't get it in before you close up tonight
07:00 <@rizen> you won't get it in
07:00 <@snapcount> we're not communimicating
07:00 <@snapcount> you're example works just fine
07:00 <+perlDreamer> it does, we should patch the template though
07:00 <+perlDreamer> wait, it does?
07:00 <@snapcount> yes
07:00 <@snapcount> I just tried it
07:00 <+perlDreamer> I should stick to perl
07:00 <@snapcount> I used qq{} though
07:01 <+perlDreamer> what time is release tomorrow?
07:01 <@snapcount> my $two = 2;
07:01 <@snapcount>         $var{'somejavascript'} = qq{var one="one"; var two=$two; alert(one+"---"+two);};
07:01 <@snapcount> then wrap that template var in <script> tags
07:02 <@snapcount> when I view the article, I see an alert with "one---2"
07:02 <@snapcount> is that not what you want?
07:02 <+perlDreamer> yup
07:02 <@snapcount> qq escapes the quotes in perl so they are actually rendered to the js
07:03 <@snapcount> w/o you having to backslash them
07:03 <+perlDreamer> right, and then you're saying the escape="JS" won't mess it up any further.
07:03 <@snapcount> oh I don't know
07:03 <@snapcount> didn't use escape on the tmpl var
07:03 <@snapcount> no need to right?
07:03 <@snapcount> it's already escaped
07:03 <@snapcount> I'm kind of stupid about this
07:03 <@snapcount> so I'm trying to learn 
07:04 <@snapcount> in my template I used <script><tmpl_var somejavascript></script>
07:05 <+perlDreamer> change the tmpl_var to this: <tmpl_var somejavascript escape="JS">
07:05 <@snapcount> why would you want to do that?
07:05 <@snapcount> un-dumb me
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Hey, question for anybody on a set of choices and which one is best? I'm working on the template here: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204
07:05 <@snapcount> in case the $two variable had some quoted text in it?
07:06 <+perlDreamer> right
07:06 <@snapcount> the light is flickering
07:06 <@snapcount> not sure if it's about to come on or burn out =)
07:06 < PedersenMJ> In the upper right is a list of "sister sites". It's slightly complex html (not very, to be sure, but slightly). Should I use a snippet to store the list, or should I use a data form to store the list?
07:06 <+perlDreamer> I may be completely wrong
07:06 <@snapcount> well at least you're not clueless =P
07:06 <@rizen> snippet
07:07 <@rizen> definitely not dataform
07:07 < PedersenMJ> Thought so. Just will have to make it as clear as possible to potential editors what they need to do to maintain that list.
07:08 <@snapcount> ok the light is on
07:09 <+perlDreamer> did that break it?
07:09 <@snapcount> changing $two = qq{Lincoln said "four score and seven years ago" and some other stuff};
07:09 <@snapcount> breaks it quite nicely
07:09 <@snapcount> escaping it in the template also escapes the quotes that define the js variable
07:09 <@snapcount> which also breaks it
07:09 <@snapcount> I get the problem now at least =)
07:10 <+perlDreamer> but like JT was saying earlier, we shouldn't be creating JS in the core unless it's unavoidable
07:10 <+perlDreamer> we should pass template vars into JS in the template
07:10 <+perlDreamer> in which case escape="JS" works great.
07:10 <@rizen> holy crap i rock
07:10 <@snapcount> sure... but I think it's crappy to have JS in a template... my arguments for that suck and it's an opinion though
07:11 <@rizen> or at least i did many months ago
07:11 <@rizen> when i wrote the asset api
07:11 <+perlDreamer> well, it _is_ something that users can mess up
07:11 <@snapcount> b/c templating is kind of a language so saying "no code in the template" is kind of stupid
07:11 <@snapcount> that's what I don't like, especially because it can render something unusable
07:11 <@snapcount> but so can fucking up the template
07:11 <@snapcount> so again, argument sucketh
07:13 <+perlDreamer> rizen: what's the good news?
07:13 <@snapcount> I guess I see templates as controlling UI appearance only and not including stuff that's required for the app to function.  But in most cases js is used for display purposes and not functionality
07:14 <@snapcount> also, you could make the same argument that JS doesn't belong in Perl code
07:14 <@snapcount> I guess it boils down to JT is right
07:14 <@snapcount> sigh*
07:14 <@rizen> what is the sigh for?
07:15 <@snapcount> you're right and I can't think of a better way and I'm pouting
07:15 <@snapcount> =)
07:15 <@rizen> that's why i'm the don and youre only a wiseguy
07:15 <@snapcount> indeed
07:16 <@rizen> someday you'll put a hit on me
07:16 <@rizen> and become the don
07:16 < PedersenMJ> That reminds me... Is it time for me to invite you over for dinner sometime?
07:16 <@snapcount> It's not easy being the The special assistant to the Executive Vice-Janitor
07:16 <@snapcount> Valentines Day is coming up
07:16 <@snapcount> that's a good day to off mob bosses
07:16 <@rizen> nor is it easy to be the wearer of hats, bearer of none
07:16 <@snapcount> heh
07:17 <+perlDreamer> I committed the template, so don't worry about me for the release
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Radix, are you around at all right now? I seem to recall your working on something else I was looking for (namely, how to highlight the currently selected page in the navigation).
07:17 < PedersenMJ> Or at least highlighting the first item only in the current navigation.
07:18 <+perlDreamer> I feel like I'm astroturfing the changelog
07:18 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: what do you need help with?
07:19 <@rizen> astroturfing the change log?
07:19 <@snapcount> You can use the isCurrentPage tmpl variable to set a class in a span tag to do that
07:19 <@snapcount> I think that's the name of the variable anyways
07:20 < PedersenMJ> Same design as I mentioned above. I thought I remembered seeing somebody (and thought it was Radix) trying to highlight just a specific item in the ... Okay, gimme a sec.
07:20 <@snapcount> it's in the nav help for navigation template vars
07:20 <+perlDreamer> I noticed that some guys sign the changelog with name/company
07:20 <+perlDreamer> so I started doing it, too
07:20 <@snapcount> <span <tmpl_if isCurrentPage>class='highlight'></tmpl_if>
07:20 <+perlDreamer> my company name is long....
07:20 <+perlDreamer> so it stands out
07:21 <@rizen> so?
07:21 <+perlDreamer> as long as y'all are okay with it
07:22 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, someone wanted to highlight all items at the top level
07:22 <@rizen> i'm not ok with "y'all"
07:22 <@snapcount> You should name your company "Perl Dreamer's Association of associated thoughts and references that are usually puzzling and always genius for the solving of complex problems in the language of thy camel our lord as spoken by WebGUI the savior of all things cool"
07:22 <@snapcount> .com
07:22 <@rizen> i have rescinded that word
07:22 < PedersenMJ> No, snapcount had exactly what I was looking for.
07:23 <+perlDreamer> oh, okay
07:23 <+perlDreamer> cool
07:23 <+perlDreamer> I'll just use vosotros instead
07:23 <+perlDreamer> that's spanish for *'all
07:23 < PedersenMJ> perlDreamer: Go with "vos." for short (as close as you can get to y'all in Spanish as possible, I think :)
07:24 <@rizen> at first i wasn't ok with yall
07:24 <@snapcount> actually PedersenMJ it would be <span <tmpl_if isCurrentPage>class='highlight'</tmpl_if>>
07:24 <@rizen> because it's like using "utilize" instead of "use"
07:24 <@snapcount> I had that closing > for the span in the wrong place
07:24 <@rizen> there's just no need
07:24 < PedersenMJ> snapcount: Thank you. I think I can see this theme starting to come together, mentally. This one will be noticeably more complex than Burned, and better because of it. Should showcase some of what webgui can do with templates a bit better.
07:25 <@snapcount> excellent
07:25 <@snapcount> I appreciate you doing this
07:25 <@rizen> but then i changed my mind and decided that "you all" could be used to make sure the crowd knows you're talking to all of them
07:25 <@snapcount> it will be great for the community
07:25 <@rizen> but then i heard some southerners using yall in place of the singular form of you
07:25 <@rizen> and once again decided that yall shouldn't ever be used
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Actually, snapcount, I'll admit it: This is fun for me. Not quite like learning a programming language, to be sure, but similar enough to make me happy.
07:26 < Radix-wrk> So I guess that would be a no for changing the 'Everyone' group to 'Y'all' then.
07:26 <+perlDreamer> perlbot help
07:26 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
07:26 <@snapcount> the redneck translation should
07:27 <+perlDreamer> learn pDC as Perl Dreamer's Association of associated thoughts and references that are usually puzzling and always genius for the solving of complex problems in the language of thy camel our lord as spoken by WebGUI the savior of all things cool
07:27 <@snapcount> too bad group names are not i18n
07:27 <@snapcount> =D
07:27 < Radix-wrk> heh
07:27 <+perlDreamer> perlbot learn pDC as Perl Dreamer's Association of associated thoughts and references that are usually puzzling and always genius for the solving of complex problems in the language of thy camel our lord as spoken by WebGUI the savior of all things cool
07:27 < perlbot> added pDC to the database
07:27 <@snapcount> sweet!
07:27 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: we can fix that
07:27 <@rizen> perlDreamer: i have officially committed my first WBP change
07:28 <+perlDreamer> cool!
07:28 <@rizen> yay!
07:28 <@snapcount> what is it?
07:28 <+perlDreamer> but now I have to work harder
07:28 <@snapcount> that checker thingy that enforces the rules?
07:28 <@snapcount> what was it called?
07:28 < PedersenMJ> If you check out the url for that preview, I'm still working out one detail, and that's the paragraph on the left side of the graphic. I'm not sure what, if anything, I should do with that.
07:28 <@rizen> depricated WebGUI::Util::randomizeArray in favor of List::Util::scalar
07:29 <@snapcount> that brings up an old lingering question
07:29 <@snapcount> why is there a randomize hash function in there
07:29 <@snapcount> aren't hashes by definition, random?
07:29 <@snapcount> or is that unreliable?
07:29 <@rizen> they aren't truely random
07:29 <@rizen> they are just disjointed
07:29 <@rizen> but regardless
07:29 <@snapcount> now that would be ironic...  you can't rely on a hash to be consistent or random
07:29 <@snapcount> sweet
07:29 <@rizen> it was to randomize a hash that was tied to ixhash
07:30 <@snapcount> hash ordering rather
07:30 <@snapcount> oh I see
07:30 <@rizen> but it's no longer needed
07:30 <@rizen> and can be depricated as well
07:30 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: post the link again pls
07:30 < Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, what url?
07:31 < PedersenMJ> http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204
07:32 <@snapcount> well your design just includes styling not content right?
07:32 <@snapcount> so you would simply have another article template you put in your package that made the article look like that
07:33 < PedersenMJ> True, it does. I almost feel like I should put an article there telling people to put something there, which seems quite obnoxious on my part.
07:33 <@snapcount> is that what you meant by "what to do with it"?
07:33 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, that's it exactly.
07:33 <@snapcount> If you do include content... replace all the text with lorem ipsum
07:34 <@snapcount> assuming the terms of the design allow that
07:34 < PedersenMJ> Actually, perfectly fair thing to do: Post what it is, and where I got it, and let them change that as they see fit.
07:34 <@snapcount> it may not be a bad idea to include articles in the package for one page to show what it looks like I guess
07:34 <@snapcount> I don't know
07:35 <@snapcount> easy enough to delete them... perhaps you could just stuff the design with the same content the other wG styles come with
07:35 <@snapcount> that would really get the point across
07:35 <@rizen> i'm going to /kickban every user that doesn't respond in the next 2.3 seconds
07:35 < PedersenMJ> For this one, I'm already going to make them do some customization. For instance, the "Site Network" links in the upper right are going to have to be different.
07:35 <@rizen> that's it, you're all kicked
07:35 <@snapcount> idlers are good
07:36 <@snapcount> make us look bigger =)
07:36 < PedersenMJ> And we all know that size is what matters.
07:36 <@rizen> we don't want to be those guys
07:36 <@snapcount> come on
07:36 <@snapcount> this is a popularity contest
07:36 <@snapcount> most come right back anyway
07:36 <+perlDreamer> I think the filter stuff is better than the shuffle
07:36 -!- perlbot was kicked from #webgui by snapcount [go get it boy!]
07:36 -!- perlbot [n=perlbot@lv.pm.org] has joined #webgui
07:36 <@snapcount> see
07:36 <+perlDreamer> it's like a boomerang
07:37 <@rizen> there's no one talking on the joomla channel
07:37 <@rizen> just 80 idlers
07:37 <@rizen> no one on the opencms channel
07:37 < PedersenMJ> Can't blame them. I've looked at joomla. Tried to use it. Figured out only one thing about it: It might be great for some people, but I can't do more with it than start it up.
07:38 <+perlDreamer> that's what most people say about wG
07:38 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: I think it would be sweet if you did your designs using the default content
07:38 < PedersenMJ> And even though there might be power inside of it, I can't see any evidence of said power.
07:38 <@snapcount> that's just my opinion though
07:38 <@snapcount> I'm just glad you're doing it. period =)
07:38 <@rizen> whoa...lots of idle peeps on drupal channel too
07:39 <@snapcount> I was pissed b/c drupal made diggs front page for their v5 release and 6th birthday
07:39 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I could do two versions of the package: One with nothing in it, for people who already know what they're getting/want, one with the default content to allow people to see what webgui could look like.
07:39 <@rizen> wow...even more on plone not talking
07:39 <+perlDreamer> g'night, all
07:39 <@snapcount> when I submitted our 7.0 relase / bday we got 3 digs
07:39 <@rizen> later
07:39 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""""]
07:39 < PedersenMJ> later, pD
07:40 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: that's a good idea
07:40 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... thought there: Even without intending, I might be gaming the karma system a bit by doing that.
07:40 <@snapcount> just more work for you
07:40 <@snapcount> how?
07:41 < PedersenMJ> Well, it's two separate uploads. From uploading burned, I see that I got 10 karma.
07:41 < PedersenMJ> It could result in double downloads, which I *think* also generate karma.
07:41 <@snapcount> no... you only get karma for posts unless rizen slipped a new feature in or I didn't notice
07:42 < PedersenMJ> Despite using you guys shamelessly for your knowledge of the system, I'm not trying to game the systems you make in my favor.
07:42 <@snapcount> our knowledge to you is an investment
07:42 <@snapcount> one that is paying off already through your contributions
07:42 <@snapcount> for all of us
07:42 <@snapcount> we are completely ok with that
07:42 <@snapcount> and encourage it
07:43 < PedersenMJ> Good. I'm glad to help. I *like* this package, quite a bit.
07:43 <@snapcount> that's the beauty of community
07:44 <@snapcount> I would also hope that you share the knowledge you are gaining when others want to contribute
07:44 < PedersenMJ> Funny thing is, I wish I'd found wg a year ago. Might have gotten you guys a pretty decent contract. And have gotten to avoid the crap I'm dealing with at work now.
07:45 <@snapcount> wG was in a weird place a year ago
07:45 < PedersenMJ> Absolutely! perlm looks like he'll be developing his own template, actually, partially because myself and somebody else (not just rizen) pointed out to him how easy it was today.
07:45 <@snapcount> not the same software really
07:45 <@snapcount> excellent
07:45 <@snapcount> you may not have thought so highly of us a year ago =/
07:45 <@snapcount> unless you used v5.x
07:46 <@snapcount> oh rizen
07:46 < PedersenMJ> And I'm planning on tracking the changes of an existing template to a package, and posting that as a "how to build a style" on the wiki. Unless you guys don't want that.
07:46 <@snapcount> that iPhoneGuy is maxscience
07:46 <@snapcount> I know it is
07:46 <@snapcount> of course we want that
07:46 <@rizen> nice
07:47 <@rizen> i said that the first day he was on there
07:47 <@rizen> and frank said "no, couldn't be"
07:47 <@snapcount> he seems to have changed his attitude a bit though
07:47 <@snapcount> I wasn't sure at first either
07:47 <@snapcount> but the questions he was asking gave him away
07:47 <@snapcount> all the same questions he asked before, pushing the same feature requests, etc
07:47 <@snapcount> same arguments
07:48 < PedersenMJ> Cool. I don't think this Andreas02 is the right one. It adds more complexity than is needed, as I'll have a snippet (possibly two), some conditionals in the template, etc. Nor, necessarily, is MultiFlex, as it's got several options to work through. I'll find it after I finish those two, though.
07:48 <@snapcount> Soon, you should get karma for wiki posts
07:48 <@snapcount> I have to post the RFE for that
07:49 <@snapcount> that oswd site is where I got my style from for my personal site
07:49 <@snapcount> and how I learned to implement a wG style
07:50 < PedersenMJ> Heh. I'm not even gunning for karma. BTW, you might want to look into mine. Somehow, I'm at 32. And I don't think I've done enough to get that. Yes, I know it's pathetically small, but there might be something in how I got that that could be gamed by someone else.
07:50 <@snapcount> most use a <div> based layout which makes it pretty easy once you get your head wrapped around the general ideas of wG
07:50 <@snapcount> that's not much
07:50 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, they really are an easy conversion. It only gets complex if you let it. I'm going to let it for the Andreas02.
07:50 <@snapcount> I think you get two or three points for every post to a regular forum
07:51 <@snapcount> a lot of our users have thousands of karma points so you're getting what's due to you
07:51 <@snapcount> and you gaining more karma also works in our favor too
07:51 <@snapcount> the more involved you are, the more you know about wG generally speaking
07:51 <@snapcount> that means you will have more influence
07:52 < PedersenMJ> You're right, it's not much. But, somehow, I've gotten more than I think I was supposed to. For instance, here's what I *know* of: buying wdr, posting one wiki article, updating it, posting one wgpkg, and updating it.
07:52 <@snapcount> which is probably good because you will be smarter in what you ask for
07:52 <@snapcount> and what you advocate as far as RFEs and spending your karma on them
07:52 <@snapcount> you can also get karma when people rate your posts
07:53 <@snapcount> that actually transfers karma from them to you
07:53 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okay. Now that makes sense (I knew I had more when I woke up than when I went to bed).
07:55 < PedersenMJ> I suppose I am watching it, yeah. More because I'm hoping to see people download the Burned theme, though, than anything else.
07:55 <@snapcount> I'm glad you've taken an interest in this
07:55 <@snapcount> we had quite a few themes in the 5.x days
07:55 <@snapcount> and it's something we really wanted to see from the community now that 7.x is here
07:56 < PedersenMJ> Well, as I said, it's fun for me. Might even work on doing a custom login template, now that I know that can be done.
07:58 < PedersenMJ> Might also work on a script to convert moinmoin data into wg-wiki.
07:59 < PedersenMJ> If I did that, I'd have a site that my friends would go nuts over in nochara.org. We've got our own RPG gaming group, and part of Nochara is based on that. We also make fairly heavy use of a moinmoin wiki.
08:02 <@snapcount> well if I'm around I'd be glad to help you writing that
08:02 <@snapcount> if it's something you would contribute
08:02 <@rizen> i've been watching videos and presentations from other systems out there
08:02 <@snapcount> the people on the dev list will help you too
08:02 <@rizen> and am realizing how far ahead of the curve webgui is
08:02 <@snapcount> indeed, the challenge is getting everyone else to realize that =)
08:02 < PedersenMJ> Hell yes, I'd contribute that. There's no reason (and no benefit) to keeping it private.
08:03 <@snapcount> I'm kind of fond of utility scripts
08:03 <@snapcount> and they are a great way for you to learn the API
08:03 < PedersenMJ> JT, wg isn't just ahead of the curve. It's lapped the other systems.
08:03 <@snapcount> they are fun to write imo
08:03 < PedersenMJ> You can use *just* the web browser, and get amazing functionality, without having to touch a line of code or shell script.
08:04 <@snapcount> tell your friends =)
08:04 <@snapcount> spread the love man
08:04 <@snapcount> lol
08:05 <@snapcount> rizen have you ever used the FileMerge program that comes with os x dev tools
08:05 < PedersenMJ> I'm trying to *show*, not tell. Hence the need to make themes. Once I get even a few of the fairly complex ones under my belt, and show that there's very little to them... I think it'll be pretty easy to convince people.
08:05 <@snapcount> it's pretty damn cool
08:05 <@rizen> nope
08:05 <@snapcount> it's a graphical diff tool
08:05 <@rizen> what is it for?
08:05 <@rizen> oh
08:05 <@snapcount> really sweet
08:05 <@snapcount> no bullshit just works
08:05 <@snapcount> but very nice graphical display
08:05 <@snapcount> typical Apple =)
08:06 <@snapcount> I needed somthing to diff templates in head... one was for 7.3.4 and the other 7.3.5
08:07 <@snapcount> since they are different files, I couldn't use our svn site
08:11 < Radix-wrk> 60000 myspace.com accounts compromised: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/01/myspace_phishers_hook_hundreds.html
08:12 < Radix-wrk> most popular password was 'password1'
08:17 < PedersenMJ> Now, time for me to hit the sack folks. G'night!
08:17 <@snapcount> good night
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08:49 -!- perlbot was kicked from #webgui by rizen [rizen]
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08:49 <@rizen> that's cool
08:49 -!- mode/#webgui [+v perlbot] by rizen
08:50 -!- mode/#webgui [-o perlbot] by rizen
08:50 -!- mode/#webgui [-v perlbot] by rizen
08:58 <@snapcount> eh?
08:59 <@snapcount> remembering how to run an irc channel eh?
08:59 <@rizen> sort of
08:59 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by snapcount
09:00 <+snapcount> can I talk
09:00 <+snapcount> damn it
09:00 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
09:01 <@snapcount> the freenode chanserv is being tricky
09:06  * snapcount scratches his head
09:07 <@snapcount> ahh
09:07 -!- mode/#webgui [+m] by snapcount
09:07 <@snapcount> I can talk
09:07 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by snapcount
09:07 <+snapcount> now i cant
09:07 <+snapcount> or can I
09:08 <+snapcount> oh I'm voiced
09:08 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
09:08 -!- mode/#webgui [-v snapcount] by snapcount
09:08 <@snapcount> now I cant
09:08 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
09:09 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
09:09 <@snapcount> that worked
09:09 <@snapcount> weird
09:09 -!- mode/#webgui [-m] by snapcount
09:09 < Radix-wrk> Now I can talk
09:09 <@snapcount> so it's /mode #webgui +m
09:09 <@snapcount> to turn it on and -m to turn it off
09:09 <@snapcount> not +-v
09:11 <@snapcount> huh
09:11 <@snapcount> +z looks interesting too
09:11 <@snapcount> When +z is set, the effects of +b, +q, and +m are relaxed. For each message, if that message would normally be blocked by one of these modes, it is instead sent to all the users who are currently set +o (channel operator). This is intended for use in moderated debates. 
09:12 <@snapcount> maybe one day there will be enough people in here that we actually care about that feature lol
09:13 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
09:13 <@rizen> i'm not actually using the mode command
09:13 <@rizen> i'm using the shortcutts
09:13 < snapcount> oh does your client have them built in
09:13 <@rizen> such as /op /voice /deop
09:14 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by rizen
09:14 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by rizen
09:14 <@snapcount> I wonder if freenode implements those or if it's your client
09:14 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by snapcount
09:14 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
09:15 <@rizen> try it
09:15 <@snapcount> some are working
09:15 <@snapcount> what do you use to remove voice?
09:15 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by rizen
09:15 <@snapcount> devoice and unvoice don't work for me
09:15 -!- mode/#webgui [-v snapcount] by rizen
09:16 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
09:16 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by rizen
09:16 -!- mode/#webgui [-v snapcount] by rizen
09:16 <@rizen> devoice
09:16 <@rizen> works for me
09:16 < snapcount> ok
09:16 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by rizen
09:16 <@snapcount> so it must be the client
09:16 <@rizen> i just rule
09:16 <@rizen> that's all
09:16 <@snapcount> mine supports most of those commands
09:16 <@snapcount> you can also use the chanserv to reop you
09:16 <@snapcount> do /cs op #webgui
09:17 -!- mode/#webgui [-o rizen] by snapcount
09:17 <@snapcount> see now you're screwed w/o the chanserv
09:17 <@snapcount> or another op
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09:17 <@rizen> screwed my ass
09:17 <@snapcount> chanserv did that for you
09:17 <@rizen> i know
09:18 < Radix-wrk> Chanserv is known to do that
09:18 <@snapcount> I was saying you don't have to leave and come back is all
09:18 <@rizen> if i kickban you
09:18 <@rizen> how do i let you back in?
09:18 <@snapcount> I don't know
09:18 <@snapcount> I know how to unban myself
09:19 <@snapcount> with chanserv
09:19 -!- mode/#webgui [-b snapcount!*@*] by rizen
09:19 <@snapcount> there you go
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09:19 <@rizen> should i let him back in?
09:19 < Radix-wrk> Can't you bring up the ban list?
09:19 <@rizen> crap
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09:19 <@rizen> he unbaned himself
09:19 <@snapcount> tada
09:19 <@rizen> that sux
09:20 <@snapcount> guess we should know how to do that stuff
09:20 <@rizen> the /unban command works if you have ops
09:21 <@snapcount> my client doesn't seem to have an unban
09:21 <@snapcount> but it does have ban and kick ban
09:21 <@snapcount> kind of stupid
09:21 < Radix-wrk> what client?
09:21 <@snapcount> Snak
09:21 <@rizen> i use Colloquy
09:21 < Radix-wrk> snak for macintosh 5.1.5
09:22 <@snapcount> it's entirely possible it can do it and I'm too dumb to know how =)
09:22 <@rizen> or you could just use colloquy and then you don't need to know magic
09:22 <@snapcount> it doesn't run so great on intel macs
09:22 <@snapcount> it was crashing on me quite a bit
09:22 <@rizen> you're a dork
09:22 <@snapcount> but that was a couple months ago
09:23 <@snapcount> maybe there is a newer version out
09:23 <@snapcount> have you switched to the intel mac?
09:23 <@rizen> nope
09:23 <@snapcount> ah ok
09:23 <@rizen> i'm going to give it to frank once i have wre working on it
09:23 <@snapcount> that should be interesting
09:24 <@snapcount> he bleeds windows
09:24 <@rizen> yup
09:24 <@snapcount> lots of whining will ensue I'm sure
09:24 <@rizen> if he doesn't completely switch from his windows box to the mac within 1 month
09:24 <@rizen> i'm taking it back
09:24 <@rizen> and giving it to vrby
09:24 <@snapcount> I was very surprised how easy it was to pick up os x
09:25 <@snapcount> vrby would do fine with it
09:25 <@snapcount> but he's used one before anyways
09:25 <@snapcount> how did Kristi do?
09:25 <@rizen> with what?
09:26 <@snapcount> when she got her mac
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09:26 <@rizen> very well
09:26 -!- preaction__ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
09:26 <@snapcount> had she used one before or no?
09:26 <@rizen> i don't think so
09:26 <@rizen> but she's a smart girl
09:26 <@snapcount> heh
09:26 <@snapcount> that's been my impression thus far
09:26 <@rizen> i try not to hire stupid people
09:26 <@snapcount> she can write crap pretty fast
09:26 <@rizen> though i sort of screwed up when i hired you
09:26 <@rizen> =)
09:26 <@snapcount> ouch
09:26 <@rizen> i was tricked
09:27 <@snapcount> every one makes mistakes, don't be so hard on yourself
09:27 <@rizen> hehe
09:30 < Radix-wrk> is there an xchat port for osx?
09:31 <@rizen> yes
09:31 <@rizen> but xchat sux
09:31 <@rizen> i mean, not as much as snapcount sux
09:31 <@rizen> but it sucks pretty bad
09:32 <@rizen> ok...i should stop being mean
09:32 <@rizen> cuz that makes me suck
09:32 <@rizen> i really just need to go to bed now
09:32 <@rizen> bye
09:32 <@rizen> cruel
09:32 <@rizen> world
09:33 < Radix-wrk> computer says no
09:45 < Radix-wrk> xchat has perl scripting support tho :)
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17:19 <@rizen> MrHairgrease, its time to battle to the death
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> why is that
17:20 <@rizen> because you did the opposite of what i asked you to do
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> really?
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> what is that?
17:20 <@rizen> i said when 7.4 branches, you could check in your shopping cart code
17:20 <@rizen> but you checked it in to 7.3
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> no
17:20 <@rizen> no what?
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> you said to do the shoppingcart thingy
17:20 <@rizen> i have the irc log if you'd like to see it
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> and I could scheck in the plugin into 7.4
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> me too =)
17:21 <@rizen> k then, look it up
17:21 <@rizen> no new features are allowed into a release after the .0 release
17:21 <@rizen> ever
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> (07:27:50 PM) rizen: but yeah, go ahead and add it
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> (07:28:09 PM) MrHairgrease: http://rafb.net/p/IXwBk521.html
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> (07:28:09 PM) rizen: feel free to commit your dynamic item in 7.4 once branched as wel
17:22 <@rizen> it says it right there
17:22 <@rizen> after 7.4
17:22 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
17:22 <@rizen> and above that in the conversation
17:22 <@rizen> it also says 7.4
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17:22 <@rizen> anyway
17:22 <@rizen> don't want to argue
17:22 <@rizen> it's not a big deal
17:22 <+MrHairgrease> sorry
17:22 <@rizen> just in the future
17:23 <@rizen> no new features after the .0 release
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> I did interpret i wrong
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> probably
17:23 <@rizen> it's quite alright
17:23 <@rizen> i'm not actually mad
17:23 <@rizen> i'm just trying to correct for the future
17:23 <@rizen> you know?
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> the item thing is not a realfeature
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> and it is also not a real bug
17:23 <@rizen> ok, but it's a change
17:23 <@rizen> one more thing that can go wrong
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> i know
17:23 <@rizen> and we have enough bugs
17:23 <@rizen> =)
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> just barely
17:23 <+MrHairgrease> I want more =)
17:24 <@rizen> noooooooooo!
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> ha
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> got you there
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> I'll ask iPhoneGuy if he can find some extra safari bugs
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> =)
17:24 <@rizen> good idea
17:24 <+MrHairgrease> for you to fix of course
17:25 <@rizen> i'm still convinced that iPhoneGuy = maxscience
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> his english is better
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> maxscience was froim italy
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> iphonguy comes from some .net domain
17:25 <@rizen> ok iPhoneGuy = maxscience cousin from england doing maxscience' bidding
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> doesn't mean much
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> but still
17:25 <+MrHairgrease> i agree though
17:26 <+MrHairgrease> that they must share genes =)
17:36 <@rizen> so MrHairgrease, your grease of choice is Murray's Pomade right?
17:38 <+MrHairgrease> sure
17:38 <@rizen> i can't believe you'd use an inferior american product
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> actually it's the exception that proves the rule
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> good pomade
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> but also the originating country of light beers
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> but then again
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> you guys invented rockabilly
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> which counts for simething
17:39 <+MrHairgrease> =)
17:39 <@rizen> only with you man
17:40 <@rizen> you're the most eclectic person i know
17:40 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
17:40 <+MrHairgrease> or do you just know few eal persons =)
17:40 <@rizen> so it appears that Murray's Pomade was originally designed to give control to afros
17:40 <+MrHairgrease> it was
17:40 <@rizen> so i think i'd like to see you with an afro
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> my favorite part of their website
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> is the hints department
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> look for the question
17:41 <+MrHairgrease> 'How to remove Murray's from the hair'
17:42 <@rizen> that's too funny
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> my barber doesn't think so
17:42 <@rizen> from the site: Murray's was originally formulated to stay in the hair, therefore, getting it out may be difficult
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> and it is
17:42 <@rizen> i suppose not
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> whatever you try
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> you never fully succeed
17:42 <+MrHairgrease> but why should i care
17:42 <@rizen> you could just cut off your hair
17:43 <@rizen> but i suppose, if it stays in there forever
17:43 <@rizen> then you can use less pomade
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> i'll put a new layer imediately anyway
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> no
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> you have to remove the stuff that's easy to removen
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> i always comb murrays out when showering
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> and then put a fresh layer back
17:44 <@rizen> i was thinking i should be like martin and get some pomade
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> or else i look like a mad scientist
17:44 <@rizen> but now that i find that it's impossible to remove
17:44 <@rizen> not sure
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> which is not all bad
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> but still
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> i'd try it if i were you
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> i was afraid too at first
17:44 <@rizen> you'd try it if you were you
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> but when I dicovered its power
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> i was sold
17:45 <@rizen> the thing is that i generally don't put anything in my hair
17:45 <@rizen> i like that "clean" feeling
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> hippie!
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> clean and hioppie don't match
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> make up your mind =)
17:46 <@rizen> i don't really need pomade
17:46 <@rizen> if i just didn't wash my hair every morning
17:46 <@rizen> it would automatically have enough standup built in
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> what has happened too you
17:46 <@rizen> cuz my head seems to leak oil
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> last thing i knew was
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> that you hated senseless chit chat
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> and here you are
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> discussing hair products
17:47 <+MrHairgrease> that also lube machine part btw
17:47 <+MrHairgrease> =)
17:47 <@rizen> i do hate senseless chit chat...but at the same time i do love our conversations
17:47 <@rizen> and it's been many months since i got to chat with you
17:47 <@rizen> =)
17:47 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
17:47 <@rizen> anyway...i suppose y ou're right. back to the grindstone for me
17:47 <+MrHairgrease> too bad america is so far away
17:48 <+MrHairgrease> you go fix those bugs =)
17:48 <@rizen> i'd live in holland if it weren't so expensive
17:48 <@rizen> and in a time zone that doesn't suit my customer base
17:48 <+MrHairgrease> america is just cheap
17:48 <+MrHairgrease> because of the dollar/euro 
17:48 <+MrHairgrease> ratio
17:48 <@rizen> yup
17:48 <@rizen> damn euro
17:49 <+MrHairgrease> when we still had the guilder i think amerika was more expensive for me
17:49 <@rizen> oh...actually, speaking of that
17:49 <@rizen> are you guys doing hosc again?
17:49 <@rizen> do you know?
17:49 <+MrHairgrease> i dunno
17:49 <+MrHairgrease> but 
17:49 <+MrHairgrease> i believe joerie and len are gonna do a talk 
17:50 <+MrHairgrease> at a nllgg meeting
17:50 <+MrHairgrease> nllgg = dutch linux user group
17:51 <+MrHairgrease> http://www.buienradar.nl/
17:51 <+MrHairgrease> I can see some air again =)
17:51 < ckotil> heh
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17:51 <@rizen> what's your web url again for the new company?
17:51 <+MrHairgrease> oqapi.nl
17:52 <+MrHairgrease> it's a temporary style btw
17:52 <+MrHairgrease> the real one is almost finished i believe
17:54 <@rizen> along with some content?
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> no
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> of course
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> we make stuff
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> not content
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> =)
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> well ok
17:54 <+MrHairgrease> more content is on the way
17:57 <@rizen> with any luck we'll get to hang out twice this year
17:57 < perlm> When creating a new Template file, I need to set the namespace to "style" right?
17:57 <@rizen> if i come to holand
17:57 <@rizen> and if you come to the WUC
17:57 <+MrHairgrease> sure
17:57 <+MrHairgrease> I'll come to the wuc
17:57 <+MrHairgrease> The hotel looks nice btw
17:57 <@rizen> you set the namespace to whatever type you're working on
17:57 <@rizen> the hotel is pretty amazing
17:57 < perlm> Thanks rizen
17:57 <@rizen> way better than anything we've done in the past
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> i liked the hotel of the last wuc
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> it's was so cheap that had a lot of bang for the buck
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> and the bar dude was really cool
17:58 <@rizen> yeah..unfortunately you can only really get that in vegas
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> I don't care
17:58 <+MrHairgrease> I'm not paying anyway =)
17:59 <@rizen> this year the hotel will be more expensive, but much much nicer
17:59 <@rizen> and more importantly
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> madison seems like a nice place
17:59 <@rizen> there is a shitload of stuff to do within walking distance
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> cool
17:59 <@rizen> my house is actually only about 6 blocks from the hotel
17:59 <+MrHairgrease> so
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> why not do the wuc at your place
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> it might be a bit crowded
18:00 <@rizen> i'm afraid my house wouldn't hold it
18:00 <@rizen> =)
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> but you just call it cozy =)
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> teh wuc
18:00 <@rizen> i suppose if we threw out all the furniture
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> providing you with all the warmth you miss elsewhere
18:00 <+MrHairgrease> =)
18:05 < perlm> WUC isn't in Vegas this year?
18:06 <@rizen> nope
18:06 <@rizen> Madison, WI
18:06 <@rizen> the home town of Plain Black
18:06 <@rizen> we got a lot of feedback from the surveys saying that the WUC should be moved around the country every year
18:06 <@rizen> so next year it will be in Austin, TX
18:07 <@rizen> preaction: are you here?
18:17 < perlm> Hmm, if the WUC happens at the same time of the experimental airshow in Sheboygan, and then shoot over to Toledo for a visit.  
18:19 <@rizen> 2nd week of october i believe is the date
18:20 < perlm> Oshkosh air show is July.  I guess that gives me two excuses to visit Toledo :D
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18:24 < perlm> If a style snippet includes images, should it be processed as a template and use ^FileUrl for image paths?
18:25 <@rizen> no reason to process as template
18:25 <+MrHairgrease> not processed as a template
18:25 <@rizen> and using FileUrl is not necessary, but is better for performance
18:25 < perlm> Sweet
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18:28 <@rizen> Norm!
18:29 <@rizen> pd, i need some processing power
18:29 <@rizen> can you help me fix a bug?
18:31 <+perlDreamer> let's bug fix
18:31 <+perlDreamer> I was reading last night's logs
18:31 <+perlDreamer> which bug shall we fix
18:32 <@rizen> there is bug that was reported via the support boards, but i'm not sure it's in the bug list yet
18:32 <@rizen> about rss from collaboration system
18:32 <@rizen> crap
18:32 <+perlDreamer> there's at least one of those on the bug list
18:33 <@rizen> crapp...phone call
18:35 <@rizen> ok...back
18:35 <@rizen> crap
18:35 <@rizen> phone
18:37 <@rizen> ok
18:37 <@rizen> back
18:37 <@rizen> anyway..doug sent me an email saying that line 675 of the Collaboration.pm
18:37 <@rizen> is returning a scalar
18:37 <@rizen> and that's why the RSS feeds aren't working from the collaboration system
18:38 <@rizen> cuz it's supposed to be returning an array reference
18:38 <@rizen> or an array
18:38 <@rizen> i have to find out which
18:38 <@rizen> however, rss feeds do appear to be working on our site
18:38 <@rizen> so it has to be a special case
18:38 <@rizen> now the code that is there is completely unmaintainable
18:38 < perlm> I just committed my style information and it has all disapeared.  Ouch.
18:39 <@rizen> and i'm working to clean it up
18:39 <@rizen> in fact, i should commit what i've cleaned up so far
18:39 <+perlDreamer> yes
18:39 <+perlDreamer> I'll have a look at that line
18:39 <@rizen> ok
18:39 <@rizen> committed
18:40 <@rizen> i haven't gotten very far in my cleanup
18:40 <@rizen> cuz i don't want to accidentally change the meaning of the code
18:40 <@rizen> until i completely understand it
18:40 <@rizen> so i'm just changing a little syntax and formatting to make it more readable
18:41 <+perlDreamer> it's not line 675 anymore, after the clean-up :)
18:41 <@rizen> right, it's 677 or something
18:41 <@rizen> the return statement
18:41 <@rizen> on the map
18:41 <@rizen> that's what he said is causing a problem
18:41 <@rizen> anyway..he's not around yet
18:41 <@rizen> and the guy that wrote it doesn't work here anymore
18:42 <@rizen> so i'm trying to decipher why he thinks it's returning a scalar
18:43 <+perlDreamer> this code does not appear to be called by anything
18:44 <@khenn> I'm writing an app which mimic's WebUGI's user management system and I'm wondering how I should post the data
18:45 <@khenn> one options is to simply set each field individually to the user profile
18:45 <@khenn> $u->profileField($form->get(""));
18:45 <@khenn> but
18:45 <@khenn> I was also thinking that I could get a list of all the available fields from userProfileField
18:45 <@khenn> loop through the form hash
18:45 <@rizen> phone
18:46 <@khenn> and if the formElement matches 
18:46 <@khenn> then set it
18:46 <@khenn> that way I don't have to individually code each element
18:46 <@khenn> thoughts?
18:47 <+perlDreamer> profile fields can be changed by the Admins on the site, so I'd say go the automated route
18:47 <@khenn> you mean the manual route
18:47 <@khenn> that's probably a good idea
18:47 <+perlDreamer> no, I mean the automated route
18:47 <+perlDreamer> have the system tell you which fields exist
18:48 <+perlDreamer> and then loop
18:48 <@khenn> problem being, if an admin changes the name of something
18:48 <@khenn> the formName
18:48 <@khenn> it would break my code
18:48 <@khenn> if I manually map them, there is no chance of that happening
18:48 <+perlDreamer> does that happen in wG's user management system as well?
18:48 <@khenn> don't know
18:49 <@khenn> this is a seperate asset
18:49 <+perlDreamer> I just mean that if wG can do it, then the asset could too
18:49 <@khenn> and adding a new field to the user profile doesn't affect this thing
18:49 <@khenn> b/c it's got a special format
18:50 <@khenn> it's a custom enviornment
18:50 <@khenn> so I guess it counts on these things being there anyway
18:50 <@khenn> nmm
18:50 <@khenn> hmm
18:50 <@khenn> maybe automated is the way to go
18:51 <@khenn> I don't think you can change the name of a field once you've created it anyway
18:51 <+perlDreamer> it's been a long time since I've been in that part of the code.
18:51 <@rizen> automated is the only way to go
18:52 <@khenn> my only drawback to automated is that for each form parameter, it has to loop through an array of profile fields to determine if the parameter isIn the array
18:52 <+perlDreamer> rizen: whether or not getRssItems returns a scalar is irrelevant
18:52 <+MrHairgrease> gota go
18:53 <+perlDreamer> the return value is assigned to an array
18:53 <+MrHairgrease> later
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18:53 <@rizen> khenn
18:53 <@rizen> don't use isIn
18:53 <@rizen> create a hash of all the fields
18:53 <@rizen> then you can do
18:53 <@khenn> and check the hash
18:53 <@khenn> right
18:53 <@rizen> if ($hash{key})
18:53 <@khenn> check the key
18:53 <@khenn> that's a good idea
18:54  * khenn takes the ball and runs
18:54 <@rizen> pd: why is it irrelevant?
18:54 <+perlDreamer> @items = getRssItems();
18:54 <+perlDreamer> if it returns a scalar, then @items gets 1 thing
18:54 <@rizen> ah
18:54 <+perlDreamer> if it returns a list, @items get all things
18:54 <+perlDreamer> it's not a reference
18:55 <+perlDreamer> kathy wants to know if they have snow days in Illinois and Wisconsin
18:56 < ckotil> yes
18:56 <@rizen> indeed
18:56 <+perlDreamer> we have 2 inches of snow and all the schools are closed
18:56 <@rizen> ok, i've got a login on the client's site that reported this
18:56 <@rizen> i'm going to see if they just did a template wrong or something
18:56 <+perlDreamer> okay
19:00 <@rizen> ok i'm seeing the problem
19:00 <@rizen> maybe
19:01 <@rizen> it appears that the main list isn't the problem
19:01 <@rizen> it's the second map
19:01 <@rizen> with the attachments
19:01 <+perlDreamer> attachmentLoop is an array ref
19:02 <+perlDreamer> yup
19:02 <@rizen> or it's undef
19:02 <+perlDreamer> that's bad
19:02 <@rizen> right
19:02 <+perlDreamer> should be []?
19:02 <@rizen> yup
19:02 <@rizen> so that's one bug
19:03 <@rizen> but there's something else
19:03 <+perlDreamer> I think the parens in there might be a problem, too
19:03 <@rizen> cuz it doesn't work
19:05 <@rizen> i've done a little more formatting
19:05 < perlm> Can someone tell me why this isn't working.  <img src="^FileURL(casr-style-1/images/ou-logo-sm.gif);" Where casr-style-1 is the top level directory under Root->Import Nodes.  
19:05 <+perlDreamer> perlm: if it isn't working, then check that URL manually
19:06 <@rizen> checking in
19:06 <@rizen> hmm
19:06 <+perlDreamer> definitely try removing the parens in that inner map
19:06 <@rizen> yeah, what do those parens do
19:07 <+perlDreamer> it returns a single element array containg a hash ref of three items
19:07 <+perlDreamer> which isn't what you want
19:07 <+perlDreamer> you want the bare hash ref
19:08 <+perlDreamer> nuke those parens, it should work
19:08 <+perlDreamer> do we have a way to test that?
19:08 <@rizen> yeah, i'm setting up a test
19:08 <@rizen> i can't log in to the server side of the client
19:08 <@rizen> so i'm setting up the same template
19:08 <@rizen> on my local box
19:09 <@rizen> to see what happens
19:09 <+perlDreamer> how far from Chicago to Madison?
19:11 <@rizen> 3 hours
19:13 <+perlDreamer> btw, portland to chicago by plane is $175
19:13 <+perlDreamer> delta, connecting through salt lake
19:13 <+perlDreamer> no dates set yet
19:16 <+perlDreamer> we're down to $129, but we have to go through Salt Lake and __Atlanta__?
19:17 <+perlDreamer> that's nutz
19:19 <@rizen> that is nutz
19:20 <@rizen> there are a few carriers that go directly here from their hub
19:20 <@rizen> try American Airlines
19:20 <@rizen> Northwest
19:20 <@rizen> or Midwest Express
19:20 <+perlDreamer> right now we're just looking for chear
19:20 <+perlDreamer> $129
19:20 <+perlDreamer> per person
19:20 <+perlDreamer> Vegas was more expensive than that
19:21 < perlm> So the URL object is arbitrary and can be set to anything for each asset?
19:21 <+perlDreamer> unless you dupe a URL, in which case it will add a 2 to the end
19:21 <@rizen> url object?
19:21 < perlm> property
19:22 <@rizen> what he said
19:22 <@rizen> ok, so i've removed the parens
19:22 <@rizen> and no go
19:23 <@preaction> i'm trying to figure this out too
19:23 <+perlDreamer> same bug, same place?
19:24 <@rizen> hmm
19:25 <@rizen> now that i can set up the example on my local box
19:25 <@rizen> i'm seeing a different error
19:25 <@rizen> well...a error
19:25 <+perlDreamer> w/o parens?
19:25 <@rizen> 2007/01/17 11:23:55 - WARN - dev.localhost.localdomain.conf - Log::Log4perl::Logger::__ANON__[768] - Couldn't call method view on asset for url: site_map/test.rss Root cause: Can't locate object method "new" via package "WebGUI::Asset::Thread" (perhaps you forgot to load "WebGUI::Asset::Thread"?) at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Collaboration.pm line 678.
19:25 <@rizen> my fault
19:26 <+perlDreamer> there are outer parens, too
19:27 <@rizen> ok
19:27 <@rizen> here is the real error
19:27 <@rizen> 2007/01/17 11:23:55 - WARN - dev.localhost.localdomain.conf - Log::Log4perl::Logger::__ANON__[768] - Couldn't call method view on asset for url: site_map/test.rss Root cause: Can't locate object method "new" via package "WebGUI::Asset::Thread" (perhaps you forgot to load "WebGUI::Asset::Thread"?) at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/Collaboration.pm line 678.
19:27 <@preaction> fixing that error seems to make it work
19:27 <@preaction> it should be WebGUI::Asset::Post::Thread, not WebGUI::Asset::Thread
19:27 <@rizen> right
19:27 <@rizen> that's fixed
19:27 <@rizen> check out the most recent version
19:27 <@rizen> and the key here is to use their template
19:27 <@rizen> not the default one
19:28 <@rizen> cuz they are using the attachment loop and the default does not
19:28 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/p/4j9Wb878.html
19:30 <@rizen> colin, it turns out the inner parens don't make a difference
19:31 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
19:31 <@rizen> oh shit
19:31 <@rizen> sorry guys
19:31 <@rizen> i didn't realize i posted the same error
19:31 <@rizen> this is the real error
19:31 <@rizen> 2007/01/17 11:29:38 - WARN - dev.localhost.localdomain.conf - Log::Log4perl::Logger::__ANON__[41] - Couldn't call method view on asset for url: site_map/test.rss Root cause: HTML::Template->output() : fatal error in loop output : HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter 'attachmentloop' with a scalar - parameter is not a TMPL_VAR! at /data/wre/prereqs/perl/lib/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/Template.pm line 2997
19:31 <@rizen>  at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Template/HTMLTemplate.pm line 69
19:33 <+perlDreamer> Try dumping the contents of what getRssItems returns
19:33 <@rizen> wait
19:33 <@rizen> correct me if i'm wrong
19:33 <@rizen> but a map always returns an array
19:33 <@rizen> right?
19:33 <@preaction> correct
19:33 <@rizen> so just putting [] on the outside of an array doesn't make it an array ref
19:34 <@rizen> that's just shoving the array into another array ref
19:34 <@preaction> correct
19:34 <@rizen> if that's even legal
19:34 <+perlDreamer> it is
19:34 <@rizen> so the map isn't the problem
19:34 <@rizen> but rather the brackets on the outside of the second map
19:34 <+perlDreamer> right
19:34 <+perlDreamer> need to assign to a variable and then reference it
19:34 <@preaction> or force list context
19:35 < perlm> Are uploaded gifs and jpgs stored on disk in the uploads dir or in the DB as BLOBS?  If they are stored on disk, then I just have a simple config error.
19:35 <+perlDreamer> on disk
19:36 < perlm> Whew, thanks, I thought I had something major wrong.
19:36 <@preaction> DB as blobs would be infinitely stupid
19:36 < perlm> infininetly?
19:36 < perlm> I can think of reasons to use the DB.
19:36 < perlm> disk fragmentation.
19:36 <@rizen> yeah there are lots of reasons to use a db
19:36 <@preaction> uhm... huh?
19:36 <@rizen> none of them are performance
19:37 <@rizen> also none of them are simplicity
19:37 < perlm> put 1 million small jpgs on the disk and your disk will average 4k fragments if you are using ex3 with 4k extents.  
19:37 <@rizen> and finally, in my opinion (which of course is correct in every instance no matter what cuz i don't make mistakes), none of them are ever good
19:38 < perlm> Use the DB and your fragments will do much better.
19:38 <+perlDreamer> WBP says that do statement should be a separate sub
19:38 <@preaction> so, minimum block size, not disk fragmentation
19:39 < perlm> well, if each of those jpgs avgs 6K in size, the DB will do much better at using disk space.
19:39 <@preaction> rizen, perlDreamer: This entire part should be rewritten to remove those maps and replace them with for loops, would you like me to try to do it before Roy wakes up for the release?
19:39 < perlm> especially of you have multiple writers concurently
19:39 <+perlDreamer> we only have 25 minutes to commit
19:40 <@preaction> it won't take that long if i start
19:40 <+perlDreamer> the maps are fine because they're transforming data
19:42 <@rizen> making it a separate sub
19:43 < perlm> okay, this should be the last thing I need to bug anyone about.  But in my config file, I have /data/domains/my.domain.com/public/uploads but I can't find /zn/Gk/znGkHfBINGO which is the tag for my img I'm trying to bring up.
19:44 <+perlDreamer> the assetId really ends in BINGO?
19:44 <+perlDreamer> that's funny
19:44 <@rizen> still isn't fixed
19:44 <+perlDreamer> same error?
19:44 <@rizen> commited new formatted version
19:44 <@rizen> yes
19:44 < perlm> heh, no it doesn't end in BINGO, I just didn't want to type out that string :p
19:49 < perlm> Hmmm, maybe I should have just looked at the log and seen that apache user didn't have permissions for that dir.  Idiot.....
19:49 <+perlDreamer> everyone makes that mistake
19:50 <@rizen> **** **** #### $#&@ @$%^
19:51 <@preaction> i've pulled a dump of the posts before they're sent back, and it seems that the structure is created correctly, H::T just doesn't like it for some reason
19:51 <@preaction> i mean, if attachmentLoop should be an arrayref of hashrefs, then what I have is doing just that
19:52 <@preaction> i removed those crummy maps and made it easier to understand
19:55 <+perlDreamer> the reall error is on line 2533 in HTML::Template.pm
19:55 <+perlDreamer> preaction, could you please paste the dump somewhere?
19:55 <@rizen> i've also used data dumper with the maps
19:56 <@rizen> and determined that the data structures are correct
19:56 <+perlDreamer> this is what we're up against
19:56 <+perlDreamer> (ref($param_map->{$param}) eq 'HTML::Template::LOOP') or
19:56 <+perlDreamer> croak("HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter '$param' with an array ref - parameter is not a TMPL_LOOP!");
19:57 <@preaction> http://rafb.net/p/Lmt09h41.html
19:57 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/p/H5i4my48.html
19:58 <+perlDreamer> so we have data that we know looks good, from two different sources
19:58 <+perlDreamer> how about the template?
19:58 <@preaction> we're both using the same template
19:58 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/p/4j9Wb878.html
19:59 <+perlDreamer> if you put a tmpl_var in front of the tmpl_loop so the two aren't adjacent does it change anything?
20:02 <@rizen> no diff
20:04 <@preaction> i figured it out, something is happening in the RSSFromParent that's changing that attachmentLoop hashrefs into strings
20:06 <@preaction> wtf is line 108-109 in RSSFromParent doing?
20:06 <@preaction> it seems to be forcing a hashref to be a WebGUI::Asset, and then running a method on it
20:07 <+perlDreamer> but none of these items should be WebGUI::Assets
20:07 <@preaction> oh, nm i'm dumb, it's 114-118 that's the problem
20:09 <@preaction> it's joining, and it shouldn't be. why is it joining though?
20:09 <@preaction> what's the PURPOSE of this?
20:09 <+perlDreamer> don't know
20:09 <+perlDreamer> no docs
20:09 <@rizen> he's trying to go through the data structure
20:10  * preaction refrains from typing his long and loud rant against certain devs
20:10 <@rizen> and fix it for invalid chars
20:10 <@preaction> you need something else for that, a nice recursive sub
20:10 <@rizen> so that those chars don't corrupt the output of the rss feed
20:10 <@rizen> but he's screwing it up
20:10 <@rizen> cuz it's not going to work on a hierarchical data structure
20:10 <+perlDreamer> no, it will only do two levels
20:11 <@preaction> the escaping can be done in the template, <tmpl_var BLAH escape="html">
20:11 <@rizen> agreed
20:11 <@preaction> unless it's CDATA
20:11 <@rizen> think this code should just be eliminated 
20:11 <+perlDreamer> and the templates changed
20:11 <@rizen> and the user should use template based escaping
20:12 <@rizen> in this case
20:12 <@rizen> we don't even need to change the templates
20:12 <@rizen> because the text is already sanitized
20:12 <@preaction> instead of eliminated, it just does it for scalars, and include a comment that it does not yet do data structures, i
20:12 <@rizen> before it's sent to the rss feed
20:12 <@rizen> why do the work multiple times preaction?
20:13 <@preaction> meh, nevermind, eliminated
20:13 <@rizen> the template can do it
20:14 <@preaction> i've got a working version, with that map crap made into something readable
20:14 <@preaction> want me to commit?
20:14 <@preaction> i'll probably have a conflict to work out, but nothing major
20:15 <@rizen> no
20:15 <@rizen> i've made the changes
20:15 <@rizen> also
20:15 <@rizen> and probably have the most recent version
20:15 <@rizen> and i also formatted the map
20:16 <@preaction> formatted but didn't remove, iirc there's something in WBP about keeping maps simple, instead of using them as loops
20:16 <@rizen> also, my initial test indicates that it's still not fixed
20:16 <@preaction> i'm seeing an RSS feed in mine
20:16 <@preaction> well rather, an XML document
20:17 <@preaction> since they didn't put the <rss> stuff in the template
20:17 <@rizen> hmm well then i guess check in yours
20:17 <@rizen> cuz i must have screwed up something
20:17 <@preaction> k
20:20 <@rizen> are you going to commit soon?
20:20 <@preaction> done
20:20 <@preaction> r3574
20:20 <@preaction> had to resolve the conflict between our collaboration.pm (since you modified it since i had started changing the maps into for loops)
20:21 <+perlDreamer> do we need to tell DrSnap about the commit?
20:22 <@preaction> he still seems afk
20:22 <@rizen> i already did
20:22 <+perlDreamer> cool
20:22 <@preaction> rizen: did you test?
20:22 <@rizen> yes and it's working
20:22 <@preaction> sweet
20:22 <@rizen> but now i'm cleaning up extraneous code that you left that i added that you probably didn't know i added
20:23 <@preaction> i was wondering why the conflicted area seemed smaller than i thought
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20:46 <+perlBirthday> I checked out the XML escaping routing in RSSFromParent and the HTML::Template HTML escaping and they don't match
20:47 <+perlBirthday> XML escaping needs single quote, HTML::Template doesn't do that
20:47 <+perlBirthday> also, HTML::Template escape &, and doesn't need to but that's not a problem
20:48 -!- perlBirthday is now known as perlDreamer
20:57 <+perlDreamer> nice catch, preaction
21:00 <@preaction> Data::Dumper is my best friend
21:00 <@preaction> why are there three mes here?
21:00 -!- preaction__ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
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21:03 <@rizen> ok next big ass bug
21:04 <@rizen> perlDreamer, you good to work?
21:04 <+perlDreamer> still here
21:04 <@rizen> sweet
21:04 <@rizen> well the next big bug is the CS problem
21:04 <@rizen> well actually there are two problems
21:04 <+perlDreamer> took an action item to review all templates for javascript and RSS ification
21:04 <@rizen> but they may be related
21:05 <@rizen> problem 1: blank emails get sent out, but if you visit the site the message is there as an attachment usually (usersdomain.com)
21:06 <@rizen> problem 2: blank emails get sent out, and the embedded url doesn't even exist
21:06 <+perlDreamer> I've seen that last one
21:06 <+perlDreamer> it's like the URL has been truncated to just sitename and assetId
21:06 <+perlDreamer> where do we start?
21:06 <@rizen> well let me fill you in on a secret regarding #2
21:06 <@preaction> probably because there's no url in assetData for some reason
21:06 <@rizen> all assets are generated with a guid url
21:07 <@rizen> and then updated to have their real url
21:07 <+perlDreamer> updated on commit?
21:07 <@rizen> so when the asset is initially created it has that dummy guid url
21:07 <@rizen> updated as in processed form params
21:07 <+perlDreamer> okay
21:07 <@rizen> regarding number 1
21:07 <@rizen> it happens on our site occasionally
21:08 <@rizen> and i usually only see it on the dev list
21:08 <@rizen> but it's also happening on some of our other client's sites more frequently
21:08 <@rizen> i think just cuz their lists are more high traffic so they see it more often
21:08 <+perlDreamer> makes sense
21:08 <@rizen> anyway...both of these are probably related
21:08 <@preaction> it has to be a misbehaving mail client, marking the HTML-ized version of the mail as an attachment. we may have to use their site to get some debug information to a file
21:08 <@rizen> my guess is that they are both parsing errors of some sort
21:08 <@rizen> right
21:09  * preaction goes back to DoS work
21:09 <@rizen> i think it has to do with something in the content of the message not getting parsed correctly
21:09 <@rizen> and then causes the messages to get hosed
21:09 <@rizen> also...i know for sure than #1 only happens when coming in via emamil
21:09 <+perlDreamer> could it be another escaping problem?
21:09 <@rizen> i don't know for sure when #2 happens
21:09 <@rizen> could be
21:10 <+perlDreamer> #2 sounds like a race condition, which is why i asked about the commit
21:10 <@rizen> as for where we start..i'm not sure
21:10 <@rizen> maybe we start with combing the code
21:10 <+perlDreamer> okay
21:10 <@rizen> i'm also going to add some debug to the one clien't ssite
21:10 <@rizen> so we can maybe get the raw message
21:10 <+perlDreamer> cool
21:10 <+perlDreamer> it's hard to debug intermittent problems
21:11 <@rizen> both of these are show stoppers
21:11 <@rizen> as far as going stable
21:11 <@preaction> #2 i'd start with the new autocommit stuff, it didn't start until then. perhaps spectre considers sending mail higher priority (or just does it faster) than committing the tag
21:11 <@rizen> so that's why i'm putting them on our high priority list while working together
21:14 <@rizen> ok, i've added the debug
21:14 <@rizen> so now we just wait on that front
21:15 <+perlDreamer> I've been looking at #2, and everything looks okay so far
21:15 <+perlDreamer> hopping through notifySubscribers, update, postProcess
21:15 <@rizen> btw...if we can clean it up for readability and stuff while we're in here
21:16 <@rizen> let's go for it
21:16 <+perlDreamer> okay
21:16 <@rizen> cuz it's pretty spaghetti right now
21:17 <@rizen> hey
21:17 <@rizen> when was the last time you got one of those empty messages?
21:17 <@rizen> and do you still have it in your trash?
21:17 <+perlDreamer> 1-2 days ago
21:17 <+perlDreamer> I might have it
21:18 <@preaction> i think that sometimes halfway through sending the notifications, the asset finally gets updated and the real message starts going out
21:18 <@rizen> ah i found one
21:18 <@preaction> i got one this morning
21:18 <@snapcount> does style03 look right to you guys in FF from head?
21:18 <@preaction> snapcount: it did a moment ago, i can check again
21:18 <@snapcount> it might be only screwed using the create script
21:19 <@snapcount> I just noticed it when testing the create script for 7.3.5
21:19 <@snapcount> if it looks right, will you run make/test create and see
21:19 <@preaction> i did a resetdev and i'll check
21:19 <@snapcount> someone changed the css file for it in this release
21:20 <+perlDreamer> that was me
21:20 <@preaction> would a resetdev show the problem?
21:20 <+perlDreamer> Steve posted a bug about changing boxstyle for Mozilla
21:20 <@snapcount> it might
21:20 <@snapcount> it should rather
21:20 <@preaction> it doesn't
21:20 <@preaction> what's the problem?
21:21 <+perlDreamer> It modifies the Snippet inline
21:21 <@rizen> pd: i think you're right re blank messages
21:21 <@snapcount> there is no grey bar around the tell a friend and site map links
21:21 <@rizen> pd: emails are being sent before the asset is commited...or something like that
21:21 <@preaction> i don't see that
21:21 <@snapcount> ok
21:21 <+perlDreamer> rizen: that's easy
21:21 <@rizen> i don't know exactly what the problem
21:21 <+perlDreamer> all we need to do is quantify the email mailer with the Asset status
21:21 <@snapcount> I'll clear my cache and start over to make sure I'm not being dumb
21:21 <@rizen> but it lies therein
21:22 <@rizen> cuz the asset that i got a blank message for yesterday
21:22 <@rizen> has actual real data
21:22 <+perlDreamer> do you want a message with bad URL?
21:22 <+perlDreamer> I found one of those
21:22 <@rizen> sure
21:22 <@rizen> just the bad url is all i need
21:23 <+perlDreamer> too late
21:25 <+perlDreamer> yeah, it's a race condition
21:26 <+perlDreamer> but the asset data should still be updated before notifySubscribers gets called
21:29 <@preaction> i've got one that looks like everything except the URL was updated, from the bugs list yesterday
21:32 <@rizen> sorry, got distracted doing support there for a second
21:32 <@rizen> back looking at the thing you sent me now
21:32 <+perlDreamer> it looks exactly like it hasn't been through postProcess yet
21:33 <@rizen> yup
21:33 <@rizen> i agree
21:33 <@rizen> the one you just sent me also has a valid url now
21:33 <@rizen> bugs/tracker/login-after-checkout-brings-user-back-to-cart/3/re-login-after-checkout-brings-user-back-to-cart2 
21:33 <@rizen> that's the url of the empty one you sent me colin
21:33 <+perlDreamer> okay
21:34 < perlm> What is the proper way to include a css snippet into your template?  ^FileUrl?  
21:34 <+perlDreamer> ^AssetProxy()
21:34 < perlm> how-to-build-a-style uses like 4 methods
21:34 < perlm> cool, thanks
21:34 <+perlDreamer> that will slurp it into the current page
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21:36 <@snapcount> wtf
21:36 <@snapcount> that was weird
21:38 <@preaction> perlm: i would simply use <link rel="stylesheet" href="/path/to/snippet" /> to take advantage of caching
21:39 < perlm> preaction I've tried that and the path isn't working.  The log says it doesn't exist.  In the href I have the URL property from the snippet which works perfectly when I append it to the root URL (showing the CSS file).  I don't know why it doesn't work in a link tag.
21:40 < perlm> AssetProxy works with no problem using the same path from the snippet properties.
21:41 <@preaction> you have the URL property from the snippet with a / in front of it, correct?
21:42 <@rizen> man
21:42 <@rizen> not sure how to fix this race condition
21:42 < perlm> no, no /.  I'll try that now.  How-to-build-a-style is a bit hard to follow on where to put leading /'s
21:42 <+perlDreamer> perlm: once you get it worked out, update the wiki page
21:43 < perlm> aye aye, captain
21:43 <+perlDreamer> rizen: it looks like a race but I don't see how it happens
21:43 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't make any sense
21:43 <@rizen> ok, i can tell you how
21:43 <@rizen> maybe you can help me fix it then
21:43 <@rizen> here's the order of operations
21:43 <@rizen> processPropertiesFromFormPost
21:43 <@rizen> or 
21:44 <@rizen> GetCsMail
21:44 <@rizen> both call addRevision
21:44 <@rizen> some asset types are of type "autocommit"
21:44 <@rizen> because we don't want the user to have to hit "commit my changes"
21:44 <@rizen> like cs posts for example
21:44 <@rizen> anyway
21:44 <@rizen> addRevision calls requestCommit
21:45 <@rizen> on the versionTag
21:45 <@rizen> and in the case of the CS Post
21:45 <@rizen> notifySubscribers is called when commit is called
21:45 <@rizen> so if the workflow engine is running fast
21:45 <@rizen> it can actually do the commit
21:45 <@rizen> before the other updates have been processed
21:46 < perlm> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/casr-style-1/css/typography.css" /> doesn't work.  But if I put that exact same path in an ^AssetProxy *without* the leading / it works fine.
21:46 <@preaction> perlm: url?
21:47 < perlm> casr-test.ou.edu/home/test2
21:47 < perlm> http://casr-test.ou.edu/home/test2
21:47 <+perlDreamer> rizen: can we pull the call to notifySubscribers out of the API and add it to a special workflow for Posts?
21:47 <+perlDreamer> to guarantee that it blocks correctly?
21:47 <@rizen> no
21:47 <@rizen> the reason being the workflow we're running works on type VersionTag
21:48 <@rizen> that's the object we're operating on
21:48 < perlm> I probably need to commit what I'm doing for someone else to see it.
21:48 <@preaction> perlm yes
21:48 <@preaction> at least, for me, because i can't join your version tag
21:48 <@snapcount> dagnab it I'm still seeing this broken style
21:48 -!- snapcount [n=snapcoun@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit ["Snak 5.1.5 Unregistered copy. Evaluation period is over. Program will now quit. Thanks for using Snak."]
21:48 < ckotil> perim in your template inside the <link rel="stylesheet" ... put ^/;casr-style-1/css/typography"  the ^/; is a webgui macro that inserts the well formed url.
21:49 <+perlDreamer> rizen: can we add the asset status to the mail message object and have it check that status before processing the email in the workflow?
21:49 <+perlDreamer> actually, at that point it's already too late
21:49 < ckotil> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="^/;casr-style-1/css/typography.css" />
21:49 < perlm> okay, preaction, committed, cache cleared
21:49 < perlm> thanks ckotil, I'll try that.
21:50 <@preaction> perlm: <link> doesn't go inside <style>
21:50 < perlm> doh, left over from the AssetProxy.  Trust me, it wasn't working before.
21:50 <@rizen> ooh
21:50 <@preaction> can't trust you, don't know you well enough
21:50 <@rizen> i have an idea
21:51 <@preaction> because that <link href> still looks wrong :p
21:51 <@rizen> what if we move the call to postProcess into commit()
21:51 <@rizen> crap
21:51 <@rizen> we can't do that
21:51 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
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21:52 <@rizen> oh
21:52 <@rizen> what if we move notify to postProcess
21:53 <@rizen> can you see any reason that wouldn't work?
21:53 <+perlDreamer> so the new flow would be
21:53 <+perlDreamer> processPropertiesFromPost
21:53 <+perlDreamer> postProcess
21:53 <+perlDreamer> notify
21:53 <+perlDreamer> commit
21:53 <@rizen> no
21:53 <@rizen> processProperties...
21:53 <@rizen> commit
21:53 <@rizen> postProcess
21:54 <@rizen> notify
21:54 <@rizen> and actually
21:54 <@rizen> commit is variable
21:54 <@rizen> it might be later
21:54 <@rizen> because it's about timing
21:54 <@rizen> no matter how you look at this
21:54 <@rizen> it's a jury rig
21:54 <+perlDreamer> yeah
21:54 <@rizen> unless we redevelop the autocommit
21:55 <+perlDreamer> the only safe way is to attach the commit and the notify so that they always happen in the same order
21:55 <@rizen> you mean circumvent the autocommit
21:55 <+perlDreamer> no
21:55 <@rizen> notify is already in the commit method
21:55 <@rizen> the problem is that commit is being called too early
21:55 <@rizen> before postProcess
21:56 <@rizen> so it's not the problem that they are happening out of order
21:56 <@rizen> but rather than postProcess, sometimes isn't being called until after commit
21:56 <@rizen> or for that matter
21:56 <@rizen> sometimes even processPropertiesFromFormPost isnt' being called
21:56 <@rizen> until after commit
21:56 <@rizen> or i shouldn't say called
21:56 <@rizen> but completed
21:56 <+perlDreamer> right
21:57 <@rizen> so we can make it just work
21:57 <@rizen> as i said above
21:57 <@rizen> or we can revamp the whole autocommit
21:57 <@rizen> the reason i did it the way i did it
21:57 <@rizen> was that i wanted to just make it actually autocommit
21:57 <@rizen> but to get around this problem
21:57 <@rizen> i'll actually have to re-add the explicit
21:57 <@rizen> requestCommit() method
21:58 <@rizen> which will handle the autocommit functionality
21:58 <@rizen> so the programmer will have to manually call the autocommit when necessary
21:58 <+perlDreamer> doesn't it still call requestCommit?
21:58 <@rizen> and in the case of posts
21:58 <+perlDreamer> $workingTag->requestCommit if ($autoCommitId);
21:58 <@rizen> that's after postProcess
21:58 <@rizen> 2 seperate things
21:59 <@rizen> i'm talking about a requestCommit method on the asset
21:59 <@rizen> not on the tag
21:59 <@rizen> perhaps its a bad name
21:59 <+perlDreamer> yes
21:59 <@rizen> let's call it autocommit
21:59 <+perlDreamer> There you go
21:59 -!- preaction_ [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
21:59 <@rizen> i'm just using the original terminology
21:59 <@rizen> that used to be there
22:00 <+perlDreamer> My head is spinning.  I'm going to take a break and grab some lunch
22:00 <@rizen> k
22:00 <@rizen> i'll get to work on revamping autocommit again
22:00 -!- perlDreamer is now known as lunchDreamer
22:00 < preaction_> colliquy doesn't like 1000+ users in a channel i don't think
22:00 -!- preaction is now known as preaction-m
22:00 -!- preaction_ is now known as preaction
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22:02 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
22:03 <@snapcount> preaction:  this is what I see
22:03 <@snapcount> http://www.flickr.com/photos/30046067@N00/360815333/
22:03 <@snapcount> perlbot shorten it
22:03 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/uayc
22:03 <@preaction-m> weird
22:04 <@snapcount> I did a svn status to see if I screwed with something and just forgot
22:04 <@snapcount> I should be done with the release right now... grrr
22:04 <@snapcount> stupid little things plague me
22:04 <@snapcount> story of my life
22:04 <@snapcount> =D
22:09 < PedersenMJ> Hey guys. Here's a question for you: I'm pondering making and distributing a macro with my next theme. It'll make maintaining the "site network" easier. Are there any gotchas I need to worry about?
22:10 <@preaction> besides that they'd have to install it themselves?
22:10 < PedersenMJ> That's what I was worried about. Was hoping they wouldn't.
22:10 <@preaction> does it have universal appeal?
22:11 <@preaction> you may be able to convince JT to include it in core starting 7.4
22:11 <@snapcount> ok so this is something with my build
22:11 <@snapcount> same page in IE
22:12 < PedersenMJ> Not this one, no. This is a very specialized purpose, meant to allow easier maintenance of a list of sites. That's it. A simple expansion macro, in fact. (i.e.: ^AddSisterSite("http://www.google.com/", "Google"); would become <a href="http://www.google.com/">Google</a> plus some extra styling info.
22:13 <@preaction> yeah, probably not then. <a href="">text</a> works fine for most people :p
22:14 <@preaction> you may want to look into using semantic markup and styling though, don't get sucked into using classes too often
22:14 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it does. Like I said, extra styling info, too. Helps to ensure consistency, reduces effort in maintenance, etc.
22:14 <@preaction> for the most part, just selecting by semantics should work. you should rarely use class= or style=
22:14 <@snapcount> rizen, can you update, resetdev, and tell me if style03 is screwed up for you?
22:15 <@rizen> my codebase is broken right now
22:15 <@rizen> give me a few minutes to sort it out
22:15 <@snapcount> ok ty
22:15 <@snapcount> I'm starting to go insane
22:15 < PedersenMJ> preaction: I'm not making a new theme, I'm converting an existing one from someone else.
22:16 <@preaction> and they use classes often? fix it for them
22:16 < PedersenMJ> And, to be honest, my web skills to switch such a theme are *not* that good.
22:16 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: I added a wiki entry that tells people how to install your theme in wG
22:16 <@preaction> crapbeans
22:16 <@snapcount> and other themes for that matter
22:16 <@snapcount> is that like java beans/
22:16 < PedersenMJ> I saw that. Thank you. I'll be adding more as I can, definitely, and linking to that entry.
22:17 < PedersenMJ> Nah, crap beans taste better than java beans.
22:17 <@preaction> uhm... you're SOL then. I vote for giving a presentation on good design practices
22:17 <@snapcount> One of those things that aren't obvious to a new user
22:17 <@preaction> and FORCING steve to attend
22:17 <@snapcount> and the first thing they will do is try to apply the theme as a newb
22:18 <@snapcount> preaction: you're confusing me
22:18 <@snapcount> what are you talking about, did I zone out and miss something here =)
22:18 <@preaction> i'm talking to PedersenMJ for the most part
22:18 <@snapcount> oh ok
22:18 <@snapcount> all up in yur biz nass
22:18 <@snapcount> sorry
22:18 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, snapcount, he's ranting at me his disapproval for the methods involved in converting this theme I'm working on.
22:19 <@snapcount> ahh
22:19 <@preaction> he's trying to migrate themes with bad design practices, the problem is that it seems that very very few people know good CSS/HTML usage practices
22:19 <@snapcount> is there such a thing
22:19 <@snapcount> w/ browser compatibility every design has to be a hack
22:19 <@snapcount> imho
22:19 <@preaction> not ranting at you, it's not your fault the person who released their code free doesn't know <insert funny vulgarity> from a hole in the ground
22:20  * snapcount throws preaction a zanex... "easy boy"
22:20 <@snapcount> lol
22:20 <@preaction> this is tame, you'll know when i'm being mean ;)
22:20 <@preaction> (you'll be running away)
22:20 <@snapcount> damn purists
22:20 <@snapcount> or idealist
22:21 < PedersenMJ> Is there a way to define my own variable? ie: <tmpl_var site=someval> ?
22:21 <@preaction> idealist, i break my own rules because of browser compats
22:21 <@snapcount> either way you're crazy for knowing what you know about css/html et. al
22:21 <@snapcount> sure
22:21 <@snapcount> if you write some code
22:21 <@snapcount> what do you want to accomplish?
22:22 < PedersenMJ> I gave up on being a purist with html a long time ago. Every site I've ever made has been absolute shit because I've tried to stick to the "standards", and never been able to put up with the variations in the browsers.
22:22 <@snapcount> this is why I never tried to learn JS/HTML/DHTML/Web 2.0.x.3.59er 5 charlie delta
22:22 <@snapcount> blah
22:23 < PedersenMJ> Basically, I want to have a snippet which gets updated. The snippet contains a list of site names and urls. I want to have a loop which reads through that snippet, puts the proper tags around the urls, etc, and outputs the resultant html.
22:23 <@snapcount> couldn't and still can't stand having to know thousands of tricks to make it work for everyone
22:23 <@snapcount> where are the site names coming from?
22:23 <@preaction> i'll put a personal to-do for "make a WebGUI style following HTML/CSS good practices"
22:24 <@preaction> meaning i'll do it in about three months, when i have free time :(
22:24 <@snapcount> silly man... you think you will ever have free time?
22:24 < PedersenMJ> Same snippet as the url's.
22:24 <@preaction> not if i keep IRCing instead of working on Alumni stuff
22:24  * preaction &
22:25 <@snapcount> so you want users to be able to submit links
22:25 <@snapcount> then style them a certain way
22:25 <@snapcount> w/o them having to know html?
22:26 < PedersenMJ> Not quite. Lemme find that theme, hang on a sec.
22:26 <@snapcount> when I say "then style them" I mean, you want a certain style you have defined to be applied to them
22:27 <@snapcount> not for the user to be able to style them
22:27 < PedersenMJ> http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204
22:27  * snapcount throws his laptop into the toilet
22:27 <@snapcount> if I don't figure this friggin display problem out I'm going to flip
22:28 <@snapcount> ok what am I looking at here?
22:28 < PedersenMJ> I'm planning on putting the "Site Network" (upper right) into a snippet, but only as a list of url's and names. Let the person who installs it just modify that snippet.
22:28 <@snapcount> ok
22:28 < PedersenMJ> The template itself I'm looking to have loop over that snippet, and output the correct html.
22:29 <@snapcount> are those pages supposed to be external to the site?
22:29 < PedersenMJ> Definitely can be.
22:30 <@preaction> those pages inside <div id="toptabs">?
22:30 < PedersenMJ> Most likely are.
22:30 <@snapcount> ok then
22:30 <@snapcount> you don't need a loop of any kind
22:30 <@snapcount> just a snippet with the html in it
22:30 <@preaction> just put them in the snippet as-is, make them follow it themselves
22:30 < PedersenMJ> I know, I can, but me being who I am, I was hoping to find a way to make it easier.
22:31 <@snapcount> is your goal that the person can define those links without having to edit an anchor tag?
22:31 < PedersenMJ> More or less, yes. I wanted to remove the likelihood of getting a typo on those classnames, always ensure the | span goes in, ec.
22:32 <@snapcount> I see
22:32 <@snapcount> there is a way you could do this that is a little crazy
22:32 <@snapcount> but kind of cool
22:32 <@snapcount> you could make a CS using the link list template
22:32 <@preaction> oh.. ew..
22:32 <@preaction> the performance hit...
22:32 <@snapcount> then modify the display template to output the html for the upper portion of that site
22:33 <@snapcount> for four links?
22:33 <@snapcount> come on
22:33 <@preaction> each page?
22:33 <@preaction> instanciating an asset is expensive
22:33 < PedersenMJ> I did consider that, actually, but also wasn't happy with that idea because of the cs.
22:33 <@preaction> and unnecessary!
22:34 <@snapcount> we instanciate assets every time someone looks at a webgui page
22:35 < PedersenMJ> It sounds like the only way to do it that will be worth doing is going to be to plug the html into a snippet. Unless I can make the macro idea more general purpose...
22:35 <@rizen> preaction: are you there?
22:35 <@preaction> yes'm
22:35 <@rizen> could i get you to go through Event.pm
22:35 <@rizen> and add $self->requestAutoCommit
22:36 <@rizen> wherever you would want things to commit themselves
22:37 <@preaction> added to my to-do list, which i hope to bring to completion by monday
22:37 <@preaction> or did you want to test it
22:37 <@rizen> i need it now, if you can't do it now
22:37 <@rizen> then i'll do it
22:37 <@rizen> nevermind
22:37 <@rizen> doing it
22:38 <@preaction> there should be only one or two, in processPropertiesFromFormPost
22:39 <@rizen> and also the workflow activity
22:40 <@rizen> looks like 4 total
22:41 <@rizen> think i got it
22:48 <@rizen> snapcount
22:48 <@rizen> why can't you test it?
22:48 <@rizen> i'm going to be here a while longer i think
22:48 <@snapcount> I can... it's broken for me, but Doug says it's ok
22:49 <@snapcount> trying to figure out if it's something with me or if something is broken
22:49 <@rizen> either way something is wrong
22:49 <@rizen> so you need to fix it
22:49 <@rizen> don't wait on me
22:49 <@rizen> i'll get to it when i can
22:49 <@rizen> but it's going to be a while yet
22:49 <@snapcount> I've been trying to and so far snake eyes
22:49 <@snapcount> I'll keep working on it
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23:02 <@snapcount> omfg
23:02 <@snapcount> finally
23:03 <@snapcount> somehow I deleted the FileUrl macro from my config file
23:03 <@rizen> you must have a better god that those christians do
23:03 <@snapcount> now I'm waiting on khenn 
23:04 <@rizen> for/
23:04 <@rizen> ?
23:04 <@snapcount> get r done man... I got class tonight
23:04 <@snapcount> a DoS bug that isn't fixed in IE6
23:04 <@rizen> a
23:04 <@snapcount> some js thing
23:04 <@snapcount> for the calendar
23:04 <@rizen> well maybe i'll have another bug fixed before he does
23:05 <@snapcount> that would be cool
23:05 <@rizen> i'm working on the cs post empty email bug
23:05 <@rizen> i'm within milimeters of having hit fixed
23:05 <@snapcount> well may not need to rush anyways, I didn't realize it was this late
23:06 <@snapcount> I don't think I'll have time to do the release until I'm back from class
23:06 <@snapcount> I have to leave in just over an hour
23:06 <@rizen> if you cared about hte community like a good community manager
23:06 <@rizen> you'd skip class
23:06 <@rizen> =)
23:07 <@snapcount> hehe
23:07 <@snapcount> you're such a good influence on me
23:07 <@rizen> i am
23:08 <@rizen> you're far better off financially now than you were before you met me
23:08 <@rizen> and your relationship is more stable now than it was before
23:08 <@rizen> it must be me that did all that
23:08 <@rizen> =)
23:08 <@preaction> so when do i start getting the fringe benefits of PB?
23:08 <@rizen> what fringe benefits?
23:09 <@snapcount> didn't you get the memo preaction 
23:09 <@preaction> helping my relationship and my financial portfolio :p
23:10 <@snapcount> we don't even really get paid, it's all an illusion.  In reality we are all sitting on JTs couch with a probe in our brain that simulates our reality
23:10 <@preaction> what IS the matrix?
23:10 <@snapcount> they even made a movie about it I think
23:10 <@rizen> it's an asset in webgui
23:10 <@snapcount> 3 of them even
23:10 < PedersenMJ> Better than some alternate locations for the probe, at least (thinks alien abduction stories)
23:10 <@snapcount> LMAO
23:11 <@snapcount> the matrix hides in plain site as a comparison tool
23:11 <@snapcount> in reality it is far more sinister
23:11 <@rizen> preaction, i didn't actually do anything for snapcounts relationship or his portfolio
23:12 <@preaction> i know, that's the fun part!
23:12 <@rizen> k
23:12 <@preaction> and you keep your hands far away from my future ex-wife
23:13 <@rizen> actually that is a rule at pb...it's called the lords right
23:13 <@rizen> i get to taste test the merchandise
23:13 <@rizen> =)
23:13 <@preaction> of course, my leige
23:13 <@rizen> $*#&!!!!!
23:16 <@rizen> how is it possible for a variable to just disappear
23:16 <@snapcount> Acme::Bleach?
23:16 <@rizen> i'm being serious jackass
23:16 <@snapcount> I would tend to think the most likely explanation is that you deleted it
23:16 <@snapcount> use the u key in vi
23:17 <@snapcount> it will pop back up =)
23:17 <@rizen> http://rafb.net/p/kA9ugK18.html
23:18 <@rizen> when i run setAutoCommitTag it sets the variable and that works
23:18 <@rizen> but then by the time I get to requestAutoCommit
23:18 <@rizen> it is no longer ther
23:18 <@rizen> e
23:19 <@rizen> wait@!
23:19 <@rizen> may have found it
23:21 <@rizen> wahoo
23:28 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]"]
23:35 <@rizen> ok the empty messages bug #2 is officially fixed
23:35 <@preaction> woohoo!
23:35 <@rizen> and the autocommit functionality has been refactored to be more flexible about when the commit takes place
23:35 <@rizen> unfortunately that means one xtra line of code for the dev
23:35 <@rizen> but oh well
23:41 <@preaction> did vrby say he'd be gone today?
23:41 <@rizen> i don't know
23:41 <@rizen> i'm the worst at following that sort of stuff
23:42 <@rizen> we should probably just create a calendar on our site for appointments and the like
23:42 <@rizen> and have everyone subscribe
23:42 <@preaction> the moving of that squirrelmail app for finditco didn't take, there's no imap server on their new system to connect to, and in an e-mail, the client expressed apprehension at having to pay for me to go in and fix it, so i'm trying to get vrby's advice on how to proceed
23:43 <@preaction> when this all could've been avoided had he told me, when i asked if he could login to the mail on his new server, that he could not and gave me the specific error message he got
23:44 <@rizen> we could have avoided all of this had there not been a flub uup
23:44 <@rizen> in the whole project communication
23:44 <@rizen> cuz we don't migrate other apps
23:44 <@preaction> true enough, but now it's grandfathered in
23:44 <@rizen> only webgui
23:46 -!- lunchDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
23:46 <+perlDreamer> I'm back
23:46 <+perlDreamer> insert the probe
23:47 <@rizen> sweet
23:48 <+perlDreamer> you got #2 working?
23:51 <@rizen> yup
23:51 <@rizen> all fixed
23:52 <@khenn> can someone test something for me in safari?
23:52 < ckotil> sure
23:52 <@rizen> sure
23:52 <@rizen> pd: i don't have any test data yet for #1
23:52 <@rizen> so i guess we'll have to move on
23:52 <@khenn> http://frank1.plainblack.net:8084/getting_started
23:52 <@khenn> mouseover any of those event down arrows
23:53 <@khenn> and let me know if the div shows up aligned correctly with the table it's associated with
23:53 <@khenn> table data
23:53 < ckotil> yeah. works
23:53 <@khenn> thanks
23:53 < ckotil> acts the same as firefox. you're welcome
23:53 <@khenn> thanks
23:53 <@khenn> I tested FF, IE7, IE6, Opera
23:54 <@khenn> can't test Safari
23:54 <@rizen> yup, works in FF 2.0, Safari, and opera on mac
23:54 <@khenn> great
23:54 <@khenn> fixed up
23:55 <+perlDreamer> rizen: what's the next bug?
23:55 <@rizen> doing support first
23:55 <@rizen> brb
23:55 <+perlDreamer> k
23:56 <@khenn> if anyone is interested.  IE6 and earlier don't recognize div.offsetTop, even it if is absolutely positioned
--- Day changed Thu Jan 18 2007
00:14 <@rizen> ok back pd
00:14 <@rizen> man as soon as i answer one support question someone else has another waiting for me
00:14 <@rizen> =)
00:15 <+perlDreamer> that's the joy of being the probe meister
00:15 <@rizen> my brain hurts
00:15 <+perlDreamer> You know, it's possible that the fix for #2 may have also fixed #1
00:15 <@rizen> i think i bruised it answering some support questions
00:15 <+perlDreamer> you need a pad for the table
00:15 <@rizen> i'm pretty certain it didn't
00:16 <@rizen> #1 has been going on a lot longer than #2
00:16 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:16 <+perlDreamer> we need to wait for debug from that site
00:16 <@rizen> yup
00:16 <@rizen> let's search the bug board to see if there are any that need to be fixed to call this baby stable
00:17 <+perlDreamer> Calendar, Wiki and CS bugs are tops?
00:17 <@rizen> calendar and wiki
00:18 <@rizen> that cs bug just needed to be fixed cuz it was a pain in peoples asses
00:18 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:19 <@rizen> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/wiki-deleting-pages#1N7SMyGT56ji8X2z6qc4zg
00:20 <+perlDreamer> JS confirmation and what else?
00:20 <@rizen> that's it i think
00:20 <@rizen> cuz the other part belongs to that other bug
00:20 <@rizen> doesn't it?
00:20 <@rizen> i'm researching now
00:21 <+perlDreamer> I'll start on the pop-up
00:22 <@rizen> i don't see the other bug that's mentioned in this article
00:22 <+perlDreamer> maybe it's been closed
00:22 <+perlDreamer> but that's okay
00:22 <+perlDreamer> I wrote it :)
00:22 <+perlDreamer> the recent changes list will show multiple versions of the same wiki page
00:23 <+perlDreamer> and that's only a problem if the title changes
00:23 <@rizen> i'll look at it
00:23 <@khenn> Colin
00:23 <+perlDreamer> yes, khenn
00:24 <@khenn> would you mind adding something to the fixes for WebGUI 7.3.5 for me?
00:24 <+perlDreamer> what do you need?
00:24 <+perlDreamer> as far as I know it hasn't gone out yet
00:25 <@khenn> I fixed a corner case in WebGUI::Operation::ProfileSettings.pm which would cause the User Profile screen to not load if one of your custom form elements can not be instantiated
00:25 <@khenn> yeah, it's not out yet
00:25 <+perlDreamer> You just want me to check that fix in for you?
00:25 <@khenn> I committed the fix, but I figure if you guys are fixing stuff today you could just add that one.  It's undocumented
00:25 <@khenn> I did it already
00:26 <@khenn> just add it to the changelog
00:26 <@khenn> if you would
00:26 <+perlDreamer> sure!
00:26 <@khenn> thx
00:26 <@rizen> ok colin i'm looking at the code for recent changes
00:26 <@preaction> did anyone add the RSSFromParent bugfix to the changelog?
00:26 <@rizen> and it shows the title for each page
00:26 <@rizen> each revision of the page
00:26 <@rizen> as it was for that revision
00:27 <@rizen> so what's the problem?
00:27 <@rizen> yes
00:27 <@rizen> i did preaction
00:27 <+perlDreamer> if I remember right from IRC, you said that it should always use the most recent title
00:27 <+perlDreamer> not the version specific title
00:27 <@rizen> no
00:27 <@rizen> it should be the version specific one
00:28 <@rizen> what i did say is that we need to not link to it
00:28 <+perlDreamer> all right
00:28 <@rizen> if it's been deleted
00:28 <@rizen> but instead create a restore link
00:33 <+perlDreamer> when the edit interface with the delete link is templated, and all you send is the URL and not the whole link, how do you insert a JS confirmation?
00:35 <@rizen> i don't know what you're asking
00:35  * PedersenMJ felt like he was part of Dr. Seuss explains TCP/IP.
00:35 < PedersenMJ> :s/was part/was reading part/
00:35 <+perlDreamer> part of the bug is to add a javascript confirmation for deleting a wiki page
00:36 <@rizen> right and nothing changes about that
00:36 <+perlDreamer> the delete link on the page is created by sending a URL and a label
00:36 <@rizen> yeah, but recent changes aren't on that page
00:36 <@rizen> if the asset is cut or in the trash
00:37 <@rizen> you'll never even be able to se ethat page
00:37 <@rizen> two different pages completely
00:37 <+perlDreamer> Maybe you better explain the two parts of the bug to me again then
00:37 <+perlDreamer> I thought that I needed to create a JS confirmation for the wiki page edit screen.
00:38 <+perlDreamer> and that a second part of the bug was a restore link for wiki pages that were deleted and displayed on the recent changes page
00:39 <@rizen> ok on the front page of the wiki (wikimaster) and on the recent changes page (wikimaster) we shouldn't link to a page that has been deleted or is in the clipboard
00:39 <@rizen> instead we should put up a restore link next to the title
00:39 <@rizen> part 2 is the part you're working on and that is:
00:40 <@rizen> in when looking at an individual wikipage you'll see a delete link if you are a wikiadmin
00:40 <@rizen> that link should have a javascript confirmation
00:41 <@rizen> our two bugs aren't even in the same asset
00:41 <+perlDreamer> nope
00:41 <@rizen> nope as in i'm wrong?
00:41 <@rizen> or nope as in they aren't in the same asset
00:41 <+perlDreamer> right
00:41 <+perlDreamer> not in the same asset
00:41 <+perlDreamer> I'm asking about how to add the confirmation
00:41 <@rizen> ok, so we're on the same page then?
00:41 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:41 <@rizen> you're adding a confirmation
00:42 <+perlDreamer> right
00:42 <@rizen> which is just javascript
00:42 <@rizen> therefore
00:42 <@rizen> it's all in the template
00:42 <@rizen> plus one extra template variable from the server side
00:42 <+perlDreamer> that's the confirmation text
00:42 <+perlDreamer> i18n'ed
00:42 <@rizen> right
00:42 <+perlDreamer> Okay, I think I understand why I'm confused
00:43 <+perlDreamer> in wG, we don't prevent people from removing important parts of templates, like style or javascript
00:43 <+perlDreamer> in this case, the confirmation
00:43 <@rizen> nope
00:43 <+perlDreamer> if someone has made a custom wikipage template, they'll have to add this in
00:43 <@rizen> yup
00:43 <+perlDreamer> great!
00:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm golden then.
00:44 <@rizen> that's both the gift and the curse of templates
00:44 <+perlDreamer> this is the same talk you and snappy had last night?
00:45 <@rizen> we didn't have a tlak
00:45 <@rizen> talk
01:03 <+perlDreamer> are we committing bugs, or holding off for release?
01:04 <@rizen> commiting
01:05 <@rizen> roy won't be back from class for many hours yet
01:05 <+perlDreamer> I've got the confirmation in and debugged
01:05 <+perlDreamer> it's hard being slow
01:06 <+perlDreamer> should we add a blurb to the gotchas file for the confirmation?
01:06 <@rizen> if you like
01:06 <@rizen> i'm still working on adding this restore link thing
01:09 <+perlDreamer> I'm going to commit this chunk
01:11 <@rizen> noooooooooooooooo!
01:11 <@rizen> just kidding
01:18 <+perlDreamer> I fixed another bug relating to escaping stuff in the CS RSS template
01:18 <+perlDreamer> going to take a short break to play with the kids, back in 30
01:19 -!- perlDreamer is now known as afkDreamer
01:35 <@rizen> there done
01:35 <@rizen> gotta go make food now
01:40 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
01:48 <@preaction> hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE PHP APPLICATIONS
01:49 <@rizen> yup
01:49 <@rizen> incidentally
01:49 <@rizen> squirrelmail comes in rpm form on centos
01:49 <@rizen> you may want to try it that way
01:49 <@preaction> i've been brute-forcing it, if this last try doesn't fix it, i'll just re-install it and have them go to town on it
01:50 <@preaction> the semantic difference between "move a program" and "install a program"
01:51 <@rizen> so has the customer agreed to pay for all this time you're putting in?
01:52 <@preaction> well, when i thought it was as easy as installing an imap daemon, and found out that i've spent 50 minutes working through various error messages
01:52 <@preaction> i don't know what vrby worked out
01:52 <@rizen> call him 
01:53 <@rizen> you can't work indefinitely
01:53 <@rizen> these ad-hoc contracts have a specific time associated with them
01:53 <@rizen> usually 2 hours
01:53 <@rizen> but sometimes longer
01:53 <@preaction> ah
01:53 <@preaction> they're typical users too, never clean out their e-mail trash... i'm sitting here while these messages get moved
01:54 <@rizen> time is time
01:54 <@preaction> i don't even know if sending/receiving will work because i haven't touched any configurations for those things
01:54 <@rizen> you can't be doing something else
01:54 <@rizen> are you talking to vrby yet
01:54 <@rizen> do nothing else until you get a hold of him
01:55 <@preaction> i believe i quoted 30-60 minutes and he said just do it, get it done quickly
01:55 <@rizen> you're not hearing me
01:55 <@rizen> i don't care what  you believe
01:55 <@rizen> i like facts
01:55 <@rizen> call vrby now
01:55 <@preaction> k
01:57 <@preaction> voicemail
01:57 <@rizen> i'll call his house
02:00 <@rizen> vrby says stop
02:00 <@rizen> you were alloted 1 hour for this additional work
02:00 <@rizen> and you're there
02:01 <@rizen> he's going to talk to the client tomorrow
02:01 <@rizen> and figure out where to go
02:01 <@preaction> k, let me restore it to working (the server that is)
02:08 -!- afkDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
02:08 <+perlDreamer> I'm back
02:08 <+perlDreamer> what's next?
02:09 <+perlDreamer> calendar recurring events?
02:15 -!- Radix-wrk [n=Jesse@203.161.68.67] has joined #webgui
02:16 <+perlDreamer> morning, jesse
02:19 < Radix-wrk> mornin'
02:36 <@preaction> oh god, don't look at the calendar recurring events things... *shame*
02:36 <+perlDreamer> dude, it can't be worse than the profile work I did last year
02:36 <+perlDreamer> I shut down pretty much all of wG for about 2 weeks
02:36 <+perlDreamer> everything that used a form was broken
02:36 <@preaction> lolol nice
02:37 <@preaction> it's not bad, it's just ugly
02:37 <+perlDreamer> ugly we can deal with
02:37 <+perlDreamer> 'specially since you're so perty
02:37 <@preaction> aww, shucks
02:37 <+perlDreamer> I won't look at it tonight
02:38 <+perlDreamer> I'm taking my kids out to dinner for my birthday
02:38 <+perlDreamer> tell me this though
02:39 <@preaction> you mean i have until tomorrow to make the major change that needs to happen for forward compatibility issues?
02:39 <+perlDreamer> no
02:39 <+perlDreamer> that will be when I bury you in newbie programmer type questions
02:39 <+perlDreamer> like I did JT today ;)
02:39 <@preaction> ah
02:39 <@preaction> well, unlike SOME, i have documented my code
02:40 <+perlDreamer> your code is well documented
02:40 <@preaction> i'll just be damned about documenting the other stuff :p
02:40 <@preaction> eventually, eventually
02:40 <+perlDreamer> maybe we could work a deal where I develop the skeleton and you provide the details?
02:40 <@preaction> anyway, gtfo and enjoy yourself!
02:40 <@preaction> the earth has revolved around the sun once more since your birth!
02:41 <@preaction> (that means Happy Birthday in myspeak)
02:41 <+perlDreamer> $preaction->translate("the earth has revolved around the sun once more since your birth!")
02:42 <@preaction> i should make an i18n pack: Obfuscate
02:42 <@preaction> or perhaps 1337
02:42 <@preaction> perlbot 1337
02:42 <@preaction> perlbot 1337 is The number of the leet.
02:42 < perlbot> added 1337 to the database
02:42 <+perlDreamer> perlbot tell snapcount about 1337
02:43 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""party!""]
04:21 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
04:21 < PedersenMJ> Good evening. How's things going?
04:21 < Radix-wrk> Mornin'
04:23 < PedersenMJ> nonono! It's evening! It's dark out :)
04:29 < Radix-wrk> eeks.. getting a wierd error in webgui
04:29 < Radix-wrk> List Users doesn't want to work
04:29 < Radix-wrk> 2007/01/18 10:32:44 - ERROR - webgui.formsys.com.conf - main::[[undef]] - Couldn't execute operation : WebGUI::Operation::User::www_listUsers. Root cause: Undefined subroutine &WebGUI::Operation::User::www_listUsers called at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Operation.pm line 62.
04:29 <@preaction> restart apache
04:30 < Radix-wrk> seen that before?
04:31 <@preaction> seen something like that before
04:31 <@preaction> did tha twork?
04:31 < Radix-wrk> looks like I gotta wipe /tmp/WebGUICache/ again first mod-perl refused to start - get that a lot actually
04:31 <@preaction> modperl refused to start, look at the modperl error log
04:31 <@preaction> it's not the cache
04:31 <@preaction> it's probably the old instance hadn't shut down yet
04:32 <@preaction> and since it was still running, the new instance couldn't bind to the port
04:32 <@preaction> most likely if you start it again, it will just work
04:32 < Radix-wrk> Can't make directory /tmp/WebGUICache/webgui.formsys.com.conf/wE401EXjGiFZwb-riCuiEg/OXOPXGkexzNxe3bire60Xw read+writeable: Operation not per
04:32 < Radix-wrk> mitted at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Cache/FileCache.pm line 76
04:32 <@preaction> not Permitted? wtf?
04:32 < Radix-wrk> rm -rf /tmp/WebGUICache fixes it every time
04:32 <@preaction> is that a fatal error? probably not
04:33 < Radix-wrk> mod-perl won't start until it's resolved
04:33 <@preaction> maybe it was trying to create that when SIGTERM was sent
04:33 <@preaction> but anyway, if clearing it fixes it
04:34 <@preaction> someone remind me that the Auth system should be rebuilt for the 8.x milestone. this is just retarded...
04:34 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. still getting that error with listUsers..
04:34 <@preaction> what version?
04:34 < Radix-wrk> 7.0.8
04:35 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
04:35 <@preaction> did you do anything to the code recently?
04:35 < Radix-wrk> just those XSS patches
04:35 <@preaction> and those patches were in that module
04:36 <@preaction> crap
04:36 <@preaction> i knew just telling people what to edit wasn't going to work :p
04:36 <@rizen> that error is normal
04:37 <@preaction> normal?
04:37 <@rizen> the one about writing to cache
04:37 <@rizen> yeah, it's cuz the cache system doesn't do any locking
04:37 <@rizen> and it also doesn't check to see if the folder already exists before trying to create it
04:37 <@rizen> it's very dumb
04:37 < Radix-wrk> lemme try rolling it back
04:37 <@rizen> i haven't yet decided whether i want to handle the exceptions, or just replace the cache
04:38 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. afraid it was those changes that caused listUsers to stop working
04:38 < Radix-wrk> I manually applied those, so lemme check I did it right
04:40 <@preaction> something you can try: . /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment; cd /data/WebGUI/lib; perl -MWebGUI::Operation::User -e'print "OK";'
04:40 <@preaction> if it prints "OK", then the module was loaded and has no syntax errors
04:40 < Radix-wrk> I've rolled it back atm
04:41 < Radix-wrk> [root@webgui Operation]# diff User.pm User.pm.patched
04:41 < Radix-wrk> 421a422,423
04:41 < Radix-wrk> >       my $postedUsername = $session->form->process("username");
04:41 < Radix-wrk> >   $postedUsername = WebGUI::HTML::filter($postedUsername, "all");
04:41 < Radix-wrk> 423c425
04:41 < Radix-wrk> <              && $session->form->process("username") ne '')
04:41 < Radix-wrk> ---
04:41 < Radix-wrk> >              && $postedUsername ne '') )
04:41 < Radix-wrk> 431c433
04:41 < Radix-wrk> <               $u->username($session->form->process("username"));
04:41 < Radix-wrk> ---
04:41 < Radix-wrk> >               $u->username($postedUsername);
04:41 < Radix-wrk> 458,459c460
04:41 < Radix-wrk> <               my $username = $session->form->process("username");
04:41 < Radix-wrk> <                       $error = '<ul>' . sprintf($i18n->get(77), $username, $username, $username, $session->datetime->epochToHuman($session->datetime->time(),"%y")).'</ul>';
04:41 < Radix-wrk> ---
04:41 -!- mode/#webgui [+b Radix-wrk!*@*] by preaction
04:41 <@preaction> when that calms down, let me know
04:41 <@preaction> by private message
04:42 <@preaction> perlbot tell Radix-wrk about paste
04:42 <@preaction> http://rafb.net is another place to paste
04:42 -!- mode/#webgui [-b Radix-wrk!*@*] by preaction
04:43 < Radix-wrk> was only a dozen lines :P
04:43 <@preaction> it's a reflex, anything more than three lines should be put in a pastebin
04:43 < Radix-wrk> wasn't registered with nickserv, so couldn't pm btw
04:44 <@preaction> kinda figured something was up
04:44 < Radix-wrk> http://sial.org/pbot/22484
04:45 < Radix-wrk> Ahh.. I see an extra bracket
04:46 <@preaction> ah, the right paren after && $postedUsername
04:47 <@preaction> also, if you've registered Radix, you can tie Radix-wrk to your main Radix name
04:47 <@preaction> use /msg nickserv help link <- to learn how
04:47 < Radix-wrk> I've registered radix-wrk now :)
04:48 <@preaction> i've got preaction-m linked to preaction, so whenever i identify as preaction-m, i still get all my priviledges from preaction
04:50 < Radix-wrk> okey.. the extra bracket was it.. bleh
04:50 < Radix-wrk> got the XSS patches again :)
04:50 < Radix-wrk> and your test line printed OK :)
04:51 <@preaction> if you ever patch code like that again, doing that (except with a different -M option to perl) will check the syntax of the module and make sure nothing's very bad broken
04:52 <@preaction> of course, if you somehow mess up but have valid syntax, that can't help you
04:52 < Radix-wrk> heh, fair enough :)
05:01 < Radix-wrk> thanks for your help btw :)
05:01 <@preaction> np
05:01 <@preaction> working late, various client stuff has put me behind
05:02 <@preaction> i should have been done with this on monday, and it's late wednesday... :(
05:02 < Radix-wrk> know what it's like :(
05:04 <@preaction> that, and i'm supposed to use something that a retarded drunken monkey on a typewriter could've written better...
05:06 <@rizen> what's that exactly?
05:06 <@preaction> and now that i've had a chance to look at it, knowing the Auth system, this kid couldn't have been serious
05:06 <@preaction> the Alumni auth plugin
05:06 <@rizen> is that what drake wrote?
05:06 <@preaction> yes
05:06 <@preaction> the auth system itself works, it could just work better
05:06 <@preaction> this... i don't even know wtf
05:06 <@rizen> the auth subsystem in webgui is horrid
05:06 <@rizen> i hate it
05:07 <@rizen> but i have no idea what drake's code looks like
05:09 <@preaction> you worked on the wiki, probably more of the same
05:16 < PedersenMJ> Hey, quick question for the PB'ers in the channel: This theme I'm working on has (by default) four sites listed in its "site network". I'm going to change them to something more appropriate for webgui. So far, for sites, I've got the self site (^/;), plainblack (http://www.plainblack.com/). What other two would you guys like to see in the uploaded package?
05:16 <@preaction> webgui.org 
05:16 <@preaction> and perhaps getwebgui.com
05:17 < PedersenMJ> Okay. webgui.org, definitely. getwebgui.com... Anything better? Could also put in a link to the community wiki on pb.com.
05:18 <@preaction> that might be better, the wiki
05:18 <@preaction> or even your personal site, i mean, you're making these things
05:18 <@rizen> svn.webgui.org
05:18 <@rizen> update.webgui.org
05:18 <@rizen> webguiworldwide.org
05:18 <@rizen> webguistore.com
05:18 <@rizen> webguidev.com
05:18 <@rizen> buildwebgui.com
05:18 < PedersenMJ> I can get along with doing the wiki. Nah, not my personal site. No need for it.
05:19 <@rizen> spreadwebgui.com
05:19 <@rizen> designwebgui.com
05:19 < PedersenMJ> JT, that might be just a teensy-weensy bit much :) Which four... spreadwebgui.com? Need to see that one. BRB.
05:19 < PedersenMJ> spreadwebgui.com, definitely.
05:20 <@rizen> translate.webgui.org
05:20 < PedersenMJ> So, I'll put in 5. self, plainblack, webgui.org, wiki, and spreadwebgui.com
05:20 <@rizen> i can keep going
05:20 <@rizen> hehe
05:20 < PedersenMJ> I don't doubt it. I was just wanting four or five. I think we hit that about 4 screenfuls ago :)
05:22 <@rizen> actually
05:22 <@rizen> if you're going to link to the wiki
05:22 <@rizen> use wiki.webgui.org
05:22 <@rizen> i'll add it quick
05:22 <@rizen> cuz the actual url is changing soon
05:22 < PedersenMJ> Okay. Hey, it'll take a couple days before I'm ready to upload. I'll remind you before I do so, though, to make sure it's ready to go.
05:24 <@preaction> frank wrote the auth system? (says his People Behind wG thingy)
05:24 <@rizen> yes
05:24 <@preaction> i'm so going to start ripping on him for that
05:24 <@rizen> granted it was while he was learning perl objects
05:24 <@rizen> but still
05:24 <@rizen> he already knew oo from java and c
05:24 <@preaction> oh, in the before time, in the long long ago
05:25 <@rizen> only 2 years ago
05:25 <@rizen> so no
05:25 <@rizen> not that long ago
05:27 <@rizen> try http://wiki.webgui.org/
05:27 <@preaction> works
05:28 < PedersenMJ> works here.
05:28 <@rizen> my work here is done
05:28 <@rizen> back to mythbusters
05:33 < PedersenMJ> Stupid question: What's the proper spelling of the company name? "Plain Black", "PlainBlack", "plainblack", "plainblack.com", etc are all possibilities. If the name is to appear in print, how should it be spelled out?
05:34 <@preaction> looks like Plain Black
05:34 <@preaction> from the copyright notice at the bottom of plainblack.com (but I'm not sure, i always seem to mix and match a few of those)
05:35 < PedersenMJ> Just wanting to make sure. It'd be kinda silly of me to post a theme with links to the company, and spell the company name wrong.
05:36 <@preaction> indeed. i'd assume that "Plain Black" is correct until told otherwise, since it's on the site
05:37 <@preaction> and that chick on mythbusters is hot, so i wouldn't expect jt back until late tonight ;)
05:38 < PedersenMJ> I don't blame him, not in the least. Suffice to say that my marriage could definitely suffer if she showed up at my door :)
05:39 <@preaction> ha, married, loser
05:39  * preaction hides jealousy through banter
05:39  * snapcount returns in whirlwind of excellence
05:40  * snapcount rubs his hands together real quick... "lets build us a new version of dis here WebGUI"
05:40 < PedersenMJ> And jealous you should be. She's also a geek. Not the same variety as me, but definitely a geek. She tends more towards installing wiring, alarms, and the like, though. And hot :)
05:41 <@preaction> i swear all i can seem to find up here are emo/goth-wannabes and selfish/vapid whores
05:43 <@snapcount> Holy shit
05:43 <@snapcount> you guys have been busy
05:43 <@snapcount> lots of commits while I was gone
05:44 < PedersenMJ> http://photos.icelus.tzo.com/index.php?album=%2FAlaska2006-25-Wedding_Photos%2F&image=Micheal%20and%20Jessica006.JPG
05:44 < PedersenMJ> That's a picture of me and her getting married, just this August.
05:45 <@preaction> that doesn't help my jealousy...
05:45 <@preaction> wait, alaska?
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Well, browse through the rest of the album(s). At least take a virtual tour of Alaska.
05:46 <@preaction> and would it've killed you to smile for crap's sake?
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Yes, we got married in Alaska. Live in NJ, but someday hope to be able to afford the move to AK.
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Actually, yes, yes it would've. I've a rare condition which will split my head in two should my cheeks stretch too much.
05:47 <@preaction> ahh, Bilateral Grinitis
05:47 <@preaction> it's a horrible affliction
05:47 < PedersenMJ> You've heard of it? Wow, most people haven't. I don't bother with the name because of that.
05:49 <@snapcount> wow... how did you guys keep such a straight face and maintain perfect posture while standing perpendicular to the ground
05:49 <@snapcount> that is amazing
05:50 <@preaction> it's because alaska is 90 degrees from reality
05:50 <@snapcount> of course
05:50 < PedersenMJ> hermf. Sarcastic such-and-so's. Gonna have to hide things in themes about them, that's all there is to it.
05:50 <@snapcount> excellent we like easter eggs
05:50 <@preaction> wank?
05:50 <@snapcount> have you found any in webgui yet?
05:51 <@snapcount> they are there
05:51 <@snapcount> most are pretty cool
05:51 <@preaction> oh lord, i forget the ones i added
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Nope. Then again, I rarely ever find them. I suck at most every form of hide and seek known to man.
05:51 <@snapcount> here's a hint
05:51 <@snapcount> op=theWg
05:51 <@snapcount> ah hell, I'm feeling generous
05:51 <@snapcount> op=genesis
05:51 <@snapcount> there are several more
05:52 <@snapcount> but that will get you started =)
05:53 <@preaction> i should make a bot that looks for those easter eggs to find sites that use webgui
05:54 <@snapcount> it would probably be easier to just search for the generator meta tag
05:54 <@preaction> isn't that part of the style?
05:54 <@snapcount> well it's sent from the head tags templ var
05:54 <@snapcount> I think it is anyway
05:54 <@preaction> i think it is too
05:54 <@snapcount> I'm kind of bullshitting right now
05:54 <@snapcount> =)
05:54 <@preaction> meh, i'm avoiding work
05:55 <@snapcount> b/c I'm too lazy to see if I'm right
05:57 <@khenn> !!!
05:57 <@khenn> =)
05:58 <@khenn> I keep forgetting I have this thing open, and then there's like 8 hours of text to go through
05:58 <@snapcount> heh nice
05:58 <@khenn> timestamps would be nice
05:58 <@snapcount> most irc clients have that as an option
05:58 <@preaction> mirc? you can turn them on in the options
05:58 <@snapcount> you just have to set it
05:59  * snapcount hears an echo snapcount hears an echo
05:59 <@snapcount> I amuse me
05:59 <@preaction> it's because you lag :p
05:59 <@preaction> you are not 1337
06:00 <@khenn> well would you look at that
06:00 <@khenn> timestamps!
06:00 <@snapcount> Eureka!
06:01 < PedersenMJ> Pretty good show, actually. Looking forward to next season.
06:03 <@snapcount> nice... someone(s) fixed the wiki bug I was going to stay up and do post release
06:04 <@snapcount> ok... no more commits or I will kill you until you die from it
06:07 < PedersenMJ> Just offer a good wheeling to the next person who commits. I promise, you'll only have to give out one of those.
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Hey, roy, you around?
06:28 <@khenn> alright guys, I'm out
06:28 <@khenn> later
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06:28 < PedersenMJ> have a good one!
06:38 < PedersenMJ> HTML Style Question (if anybody has a minute?). I'm working with this template: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204 still.
06:40 < PedersenMJ> My question: The way the template is built, it seems like I should put a top level navigation across the top (new navigation, relative to root, 1 level of descendants), and maybe put a second navigation underneath (new navigation, relative to current, show siblings), as long as current is not root. What do you guys think?
06:40 < PedersenMJ> BTW, underneath means under the picture that we see there, next to that paragraph.
07:12 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable 7.2.3 | beta 7.3.5) | WRE (0.7.2) | Use the Wiki: http://plainblack.com/support/community-wiki | Questions? Ask and wait patiently | http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
07:35 <@rizen> someone should create a planet webgui site
07:35 <@rizen> that brings together all the sites we build
07:35 <@rizen> plus all the international sites
07:35 <@rizen> plus the webgui user driven sites like radix' irc stats and crythias' faq
07:41 < PedersenMJ> Heh. That turns into one problem that I've never found a good solution for, and even Google does it only so-so: How do you organize the data such that somebody unfamiliar with the topic can find what interests them?
07:41 < PedersenMJ> If I could pull off *that* organizational trick, I'd put Google outside of business inside of a year.
07:42 < PedersenMJ> erm, put Google out of business.
07:46 <@rizen> hardly
07:46 < PedersenMJ> After all, take a look at the number of sites you listed when I asked for the listing for the site network for this theme. And each of those can have any of a dozen categories placed on them, I think. svn.webgui.org? Development. Also: Old Versions. CMS Architecture. How to use mod_perl effectively. Apache2 and mod_perl2 sample scripts. MySQL5 sample code. And that's without thinking about it too hard.
07:46 <@rizen> you'd be hard pressed to put google out of business in a year
07:46 <@rizen> even if you were microsoft
07:46 <@rizen> oracle
07:46 <@rizen> sun
07:46 <@rizen> yahoo
07:46 <@rizen> and ebay
07:46 <@rizen> put together
07:47 < PedersenMJ> Fair enough, they've got enough money to stay in business for a very long time, even if they stopped selling everything tomorrow.
07:47 <@rizen> hehe
07:48 < PedersenMJ> However, the point is still valid: I can organize things in any of a hundred different ways. Provided I keep the list of things small enough, the organizational scheme will be easy to understand for most people.
07:49 < PedersenMJ> Once the list of things grows large enough, though, the organization of it all becomes very challenging. Especially once you add other people's ideas about how to organize to the mix.
07:49 <@rizen>  1 + 1 = 3
07:50 <@rizen> 2 + 2 = 6
07:50 <@rizen> 3 + 3 = 9
07:50 <@rizen> is my math getting better or worse
07:50 < PedersenMJ> Even Google doesn't handle it wonderfully, though they seem to be the best at it so far. Though I find that once I start searching outside of my normal search space, I have a hard time finding the answers I'm seeking.
07:51 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I get your point, and am having a hard time communicating mine (it's almost 1am here, and after midnight, my ability to communicate starts to crap out).
07:51 <@rizen> me thinks it's bedtime
07:51 < PedersenMJ> You were wanting a planet webgui site. I'd love to see it. Would love to be able to do it, actually. But it's beyond my organizational skills.
07:51 < PedersenMJ> I speak too much when it's late :)
07:54 < PedersenMJ> You're right though, it is bedtime, and I'm going to go to bed before I embarass myself further. Have a good night.
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07:55 < Radix-wrk> not my irc stats - xdanger's :)
07:59 < Radix-wrk> Anyone know what causes these errors btw - got quite a few of them in the webgui logs (going back a while too)? - "2007/01/18 13:22:54 - ERROR - webgui.formsys.com.conf - main::[[undef]] - Asset constructor new() requires an assetId."
08:10 <@preaction> something is trying to instanciate an asset without an asset Id
08:10 <@preaction> this is usually very bad
08:12 < Radix-wrk> it doesn't give any other info, so no idea how to track it down :(
08:13 < Radix-wrk> I get prolly half a dozen of these a day
08:46 <@preaction> that's one of those error messages that should give a full stack trace
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13:14 < iPhoneGuy> hi
13:14 < iPhoneGuy> wasn't the duplicate mail in CS bug fixed? Look at martink post http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/dev/discuss/7_3_5-beta-release
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15:43 < ckotil> Is there any document version control in wg? in addition to workflow versioning, im looking for checkin/out of the document, and to be able to go back a couple versions at will.
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15:47 < Radix__> kinda
15:47 < Radix__> once you edit a document it becomes "checked out" so to speak
15:47 < Radix__> and until you commit the version it's locked for everyone else
15:47 < ckotil> ah, thats true.
15:47 < Radix__> you can also select between multiple versions of a document easily when you edit it (and roll back that way)
15:48 < Radix__> on the right there's links to previous versions of the document with dates given
15:48 < Radix__> doesn't show version names or anything like that tho.. just dates.. like 3 weeks ago, 5 weeks ago, 6 months ago, etc
15:49 < Radix__> not really a full cvs system tho
15:49 < Radix__> can't have multiple checkouts or merges or anything like that
15:49 < ckotil> that would be a sweet rfe
15:50 < Radix__> got karma? ;)
15:50 < ckotil> ~1200
15:50 < ckotil> im looking at the worflow engine as a cvs now, and its actually pretty good. it might work for us
15:50 < Radix__> it's pretty cool
15:51 < ckotil> can i click a date like 1 month ago and view what the document was at that point in time? (i cant really tell if thats what is going on now or not)
15:51 < Radix__> yep
15:51 < ckotil> ok nice.
15:51 < ckotil> thanks Radix__ 
15:51 < Radix__> np
15:52 < ckotil> getting my crew to really pay attention at the version tags as a way to checkin/out a document shold give them a better understanding of webgui 
15:52 < ckotil> does the collaboration system offer any checkin/out?
15:53 < Radix__> yup.. I had to train everyone on how to use them at my work too, but now they couldn't live without it
15:53 < Radix__> nah, the cs system doesn't
15:53 < ckotil> does project management?
15:53 < Radix__> no idea
15:54 < ckotil> ill find out. ive been going through some assets this morning looking for the functionality i want
15:54 < Radix__> demo.plainblack.com :)
15:55 < ckotil> ah good point. im using my development instance of wg
15:55 < Radix__> yup.. that'll do it :)
15:55 < Radix__> demo is a nice way of checking the current version tho.. and seeing what's new if you're not using the latest
15:55 < ckotil> yeah
15:55 < Radix__> but yeah, I have vmware setups with copies of our /data dir on em :)
15:55 < Radix__> that I use for testing
15:55 < ckotil> nice
15:56 < ckotil> im running 7.2.1
15:56 < Radix__> that's where the wre really shines
15:56 < ckotil> i keep it fairly up2dte
15:56 < Radix__> backup the whole /data dir and copy it to another machine and voila, just works
15:56 < ckotil> i tried to install the wre on our RHAS4 machines and it would never compile
15:56 < Radix__> we're using 7.0.8 atm
15:56 < ckotil> sweet
15:57 < ckotil> i also couldnt get it to compile on fbsd 6.1
15:57 < Radix__> using CentOS 4.3 (RHEL4) and the binary RHEL4 WRE
15:57 < ckotil> err maybe it was 6.0
15:57 < Radix__> binary wre would be way easier than source
15:57 < ckotil> im sure it is
15:57 < Radix__> especially as it's built for the RHEL setups
15:58 < ckotil> interesting. ill look into that some day
15:58 < Radix__> definitely worth it :)
15:58 <+MrHairgrease> you could check out ubuntu server edition
15:58 <+MrHairgrease> there's a wre binary for that too
15:58 < Radix__> sure, but if he's already using RH then he might as well try the wre binary for it ;)
15:58 <+MrHairgrease> sure enough
15:59 < ckotil> ill stick it on the dev box. will it work in conjunction with apache running?
15:59 <+MrHairgrease> no
15:59 < ckotil> ah
15:59 < Radix__> not if it's on the same port
15:59 <+MrHairgrease> unless you set apache
15:59 <+MrHairgrease> to listen to a diffrent ip
15:59 <+MrHairgrease> or prt
15:59 <+MrHairgrease> port
16:00 < Radix__> nor will mysql like any existing /etc/my.cnf files
16:00 < ckotil> ok, that shouldnt be a big deal
16:00 < ckotil> aww
16:00 <+MrHairgrease> it isn't
16:00 <+MrHairgrease> i have a setup
16:00 < ckotil> can i have it use a different .cnf file?
16:00 < Radix__> put apache on a diff port, and use the mod-proxy with the wre to forward it
16:00 < Radix__> the wre has everything you need
16:00 <+MrHairgrease> with the wre and the vanilla ubuntu apache
16:00 <+MrHairgrease> yes
16:00 <+MrHairgrease> i do it that way
16:00 < ckotil> cool
16:01 <+MrHairgrease> works perfectly
16:01 <+MrHairgrease> and it keeps load from the other apache
16:01 < Radix__> yup - fast too
16:01 < ckotil> would you say wre performs better than from source install?
16:01 <+MrHairgrease> very likely
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> the wre is compiled with webgu in mind
16:02 < Radix__> not ever had a success compiling the wre myself - but the binary is great
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> compiling it can be a pain
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> i tried it for gentoo
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> it just kept failing
16:02 < ckotil> gentoo gets annoying real fast
16:02 <+MrHairgrease> \cost me a weekend
16:03 <+MrHairgrease> i hate gentoo
16:03 < ckotil> ya. lol
16:03 < Radix__> Well I'm off to bed.. night guys :)
16:03 <+MrHairgrease> but it is the os of choice of procolix
16:03 <+MrHairgrease> later
16:03 < ckotil> night
16:03  * ckotil just woke up
16:03 < Radix__> 11pm here :)
16:03  * MrHairgrease fell asleep on the couch
16:03 <+MrHairgrease> 1500 over here
16:04 < ckotil> 1400
16:04 < ckotil> errr. thats UTC , its 900
16:05 <+MrHairgrease> I'm in holland
16:05 <+MrHairgrease> so that's utc+1 i gues
16:05 < ckotil> ya
16:05 < ckotil> you ever eat those wiener shnitzels that everyone in holland offers up to tourists?
16:06 < ckotil> i forget what they're called but they have some disgusting name
16:06 <+MrHairgrease> I sometimes eat Wiener schnitzels yes
16:06 <+MrHairgrease> there named after Vienna
16:06 < ckotil> im thinking of something else then
16:06 <+MrHairgrease> In austria Vienna == Wien
16:06 < ckotil> bc locals do not eat this stuff, so im told
16:06 <+MrHairgrease> I know you are
16:07 <+MrHairgrease> but it's more a german recepy
16:07 <+MrHairgrease> and austrian
16:07 <+MrHairgrease> In holland we have other foods
16:07 < xdanger> 1600 here...
16:09 < ckotil> all my friends who have visited amsterdam say the locals told them they should get this food. and then i met a guy from holland and he said whateevr i do , do not eat that food
16:09 < ckotil> i wonder wtf it was called...
16:09 < xdanger> time to _go_ to work =(
16:10 <+MrHairgrease> i dunno what food you're talking about
16:10 <+MrHairgrease> xdanger: have fun
16:11 < xdanger> I won't =)
16:11 <+MrHairgrease> it's a dirty job
16:11 <+MrHairgrease> but someone has gotta do it
16:11 <+MrHairgrease> and that someone
16:11 <+MrHairgrease> is YOU =)
16:12 < xdanger> damn
16:12 < xdanger> =)
16:12 <+MrHairgrease> what job do you have to do?
16:15 < xdanger> basic bussiness stuff... billing, paying bills, write a contract...
16:15 < xdanger> I hate it =)
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17:04 < PedersenMJ> g'morning
17:12 < ckotil> Good morning
17:13 < ckotil> We have a new reporting tool that is about to go into production. We want to automate the last step of getting the new reports into webgui. A cgi script that would save the file into webgui would be ideal. Can this be done? will we have ot create a custom wobject?
17:14 <+MrHairgrease> sure it is
17:14 <+MrHairgrease> but why do you want to use a cgi script
17:15 <+MrHairgrease> is the reportingtool connecting through https?
17:15 <+MrHairgrease> http*
17:15 < ckotil> yes
17:16 < ckotil> we dont have to use a cgi script
17:16 < ckotil> that's just how ive done this in the past
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> if the reporting tool resides on the same server
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> just write a utility script
17:16 < ckotil> its on a remote server
17:16 <+MrHairgrease> and if you wanna do it with cgi
17:17 <+MrHairgrease> just make a utilityscript that uses cgi
17:17 <+MrHairgrease> you can use the webgui api in your cgi
17:18 < ckotil> yes. i would like to use the api. 
17:18 <+MrHairgrease> there are a couple of utility scripts in the sbin dir
17:18 <+MrHairgrease> as well as a skeleton for generic utility scripts
17:19 < ckotil> i see fileImport.pl
17:19 < ckotil> that should be useful
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> it is
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> the upgrade script kinda use the same method too
17:19 <+MrHairgrease> if you wnat to put you report in a new article under some page
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> you do something like 
17:20 < ckotil> will a version tag be created when using the fileImport?
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> yes
17:20 < ckotil> good deal.
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> but you can commit that tag from the code
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> you can also use an open tag
17:20 <+MrHairgrease> but you have to set that manually
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> you should view those scripts as browing webgui from the indsie
17:21 <+MrHairgrease> inside*
17:21  * ckotil nods
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17:37 <@khenn> buenas dias!
17:41 < PedersenMJ> buenos dias, khenn. Como estas?
17:42 < ckotil> fileImport works as expected. we are left with an open version tag that needs to be commited. We want this process to be automated, how can we automatically commit the version tag thats created from fileImport?
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> see the skeleton file
17:43 < ckotil> ok
17:43 <+MrHairgrease> 	# my $versionTag = WebGUI::VersionTag->getWorking($session);         # $versionTag->commit;
17:44 <+MrHairgrease> it's in the finish routine
17:44 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has joined #webgui
17:44 < PedersenMJ> hey, perlm, how goes it?
17:44 < perlm> Very well
17:44 < perlm> http://casr-test.ou.edu
17:45 < PedersenMJ> Did you get it converted to webgui already?
17:45 < perlm> Porting the site right now (I've given up on our web guy to be of any help).
17:45 < ckotil> thx MrHairgrease 
17:45 < perlm> the design is all done, just movign content.
17:45 <+MrHairgrease> my pleasure
17:46 < PedersenMJ> Nice job. I guess you see that we were telling the truth about it being easy :)
17:46 < perlm> putting together an example survey/report for one of the scientists to start familiarizing herself with, so she can create nifty stuff herself.  Things are great!
17:46 < perlm> yeah, it was incredible.  Thanks so much for all the help.
17:46 <+MrHairgrease> the api is the single best thing in wg imho
17:46 < PedersenMJ> Didn't do much other than tell you where to look :)
17:47 < perlm> I'm much more at home looking at the API and how to tack in custom stuff than I am with CSS and templates.
17:47 < pjesi> guys, how is it possible to add images to the photo gallery? It just displays suscribe or search
17:48 < PedersenMJ> The theme I'm working on now will be somewhat more difficult for people to use, unfortunately. There's a couple of snippets, one of which they are actually going to be expected to edit. And a directory to place some quotes.
17:49 < PedersenMJ> Which reminds me: Any PB'ers in the house? Since I'm making this theme having webgui/plain black links and look-n-feel, I need to ask for some stuff from you guys. Specifically, half a dozen or so quotes from customer testimonials that I can throw into this.
17:49 < perlm> Sounds like a pretty cool theme.
17:50 < PedersenMJ> This one is. Burned was very simple, didn't do much. This one adds a lot. Hang on, lemme grab a link to the unported version.
17:50 < perlm> pjesi I'm very new to WebGUI, but have you tried clearing the cache?
17:50 < PedersenMJ> http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204
17:51 < PedersenMJ> pjesi: I haven't touched the photo gallery yet, so am unable to reall help out at all, I'm sorry to say.
17:51 < pjesi> perlm: just jumped into fresh instance at demo.pb
17:51 < perlm> Oh wow, that is slick looking.
17:52 < pjesi> I hate how good I am at doing webgui templates
17:52 < PedersenMJ> It is, and the end result should be really pleasant to use, I think. I'm planning on using it for my personal web site.
17:53 < PedersenMJ> pjesi: Please, do more! I'm working on adding them and uploading to the contrib at pb.com.
17:54 < pjesi> PedersenMJ: I was going to contribute my Ajax calendar template but then the calendar was rewritten, so it is useless
17:55 < pjesi> and now I just got specification for several "Assets" I am supposed to program as well as ~20-30 photoshop to implement as templates
17:56 < pjesi> does that seem a little unrealistic to you?
17:56 < PedersenMJ> Depends, really. What's the deadline for them?
17:57 < pjesi> I have to implement the templates before 1st of March
17:57 < ckotil> damn, id say thats at least an entire month of work
17:58 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it definitely would be. I'm converting existing html/css, and it takes me most of 1 day per. To create, from scratch, that many before mar 1 would be pretty tough, if not impossible.
17:59 < ckotil> i bet you would get real good at it after a couple days
17:59 < pjesi> yes I told them I could do the html/css/js stuff before the deadline, but more than that is impossible
18:00 < pjesi> well, I could make a webgui theme of that andreas open souce template in a day
18:00 < PedersenMJ> That's about how long it's taking me.
18:01 < pjesi> but the advantage of the is you have the images, html, and css, you only need to decorate webgui with it, I have only PSD files
18:02 < ckotil> ya, thats rough.
18:02 < ckotil> do you cut them up?
18:02 < pjesi> anyone know how PSD support is in Gimp
18:02 < ckotil> or just recreate it in html
18:02 < PedersenMJ> Exactly. That's why I said it would be difficult, if not impossible, before Mar 1 to do that many. If you have the html and css done in advance, one/day is feasible.
18:02 < ckotil> once i installed PS i've never touched gimp
18:02 < perlm> The only way to add images to WebGUI is via the assets interface?  Or is there something else I'm missing?
18:02 < pjesi> I cut the gradients, logos and other stuff that is not possible with CSS
18:03 <@rizen> pjesi: you have to commit a CS before you can add content to it.
18:03 < pjesi> rizen: thank you!
18:03 < pjesi> I should have known that
18:05 < pjesi> my biggest concern atm is that the clients hate the content management system in webgui, and content is not multilingual
18:08 <@rizen> multi-lingugual content objects don't really make a lot of sense from what I'm told
18:09 <@rizen> i only speak english (barely) and garbled crap (native), so i can't say
18:09 <@rizen> but our translation team tells me that multi-lingual content objects are dumb
18:09 <@rizen> because then the site would assume that the same content applies to everyone
18:10 <@rizen> which it doesn't
18:10 <@rizen> and that things like ordering of the navs
18:10 <@rizen> or the layout of the content is consistent between languages and cultures
18:10 <@rizen> which it isn't
18:11 < pjesi> well, it is solved extremely well imo in Plone
18:11 <@rizen> but other than the multi-lingual content objects, why do your clients hate it?
18:14 < pjesi> I have not spoken to them directly (I just get complains from co-workers that do), but it is something very unpleasant about the interface I guess
18:16 < pjesi> one of the complaints that I do remember is that the content does not look the same on the published page as it does in the asset manager
18:18 <@rizen> do you mean rich editor (not asset manager)?
18:19 < pjesi> I mean the WYSIWYG editor in the admin
18:20 <@rizen> yeah, the rich editor
18:20 <@rizen> that can make the content look exactly like the content on the page
18:21 <@rizen> it just takes one configuration directive from you
18:21 < pjesi> apply css to the admin template?
18:21 <@rizen> you have to add a link to your style sheet into the config of the rich editor
18:21 <@rizen> no...the rich editor is an asset like a snippet
18:21 <@rizen> you just have to edit it
18:21 < pjesi> I see
18:21 <@rizen> and there is a field for the URL to your style sheet
18:23 < pjesi> can I load the editor in the content container within the page layout instead of opening it in the admin interface?
18:24 < pjesi> perhaps, using the www_ajaxInline function
18:24 < pjesi> that might be nice
18:25 <@rizen> no
18:25 <@rizen> we used to do that but we ran into too many problems
18:25 <@rizen> people's content would get in the way of some fields
18:25 <@rizen> or their content area wasn't big enough for the edit form
18:26 <@rizen> or some stylesheet property interfered with the operation of the editor
18:26 <@rizen> or some javascript screwed up something
18:26 <@rizen> so that's when we went to the admin interface
18:26 <@rizen> it's there to protect the users
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18:27 < pjesi> I see
18:28 <@rizen> the worst part about all of the above
18:28 <@rizen> is when it happened
18:28 <@rizen> sometimes it was so bad that the user couldn't even get out of it
18:28 <@rizen> meaning, they made some change
18:28 <@rizen> that screwed up the forms entirely
18:28 <@rizen> and then the only way to fix it
18:28 <@rizen> was to edit the database directly
18:28 <@rizen> cuz the user interface was so broken
18:29 <@rizen> that it broke the forms from being able to fix it
18:29 <@rizen> this way at least, you're guaranteed that your editing interface will continue to work
18:29 <@rizen> no matter how badly you screw up your site. =)
18:30 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
18:31 <@rizen> am i reading your profile right, you're in israel?
18:32 < pjesi> me?
18:32 <@rizen> yes
18:33 < pjesi> no
18:33 < pjesi> I'm living in Oxford, UK. But I'm from Iceland
18:33 <@rizen> iceland
18:33 <@rizen> sorry, i thought .is was israel
18:33 <+MrHairgrease> me too
18:34 < pjesi> haha
18:34 <@rizen> .il is israel
18:34 <@rizen> now that i'm looking at it
18:34 <@rizen> http://www.iana.org/root-whois/index.html#i
18:35 <@rizen> so do you speak the hardest language on earth to learn? (icelandic)
18:35 <@rizen> i don't know that it's the hardest language...i just know from a few translator friends that it's pretty damn hard
18:36 < pjesi> yes, I am a native speaker
18:36 <+MrHairgrease> finish should be very hard too
18:36 <+MrHairgrease> and hungarian
18:36 <@rizen> and dutch =)
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> nah
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> that isn't hard
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> if i can speak it...
18:37 < pjesi> dutch is easy, dont know hungarian
18:37 <@rizen> and as long as we're spouting off languages: spanish, german, french, cantonese, mandarin, japanese
18:37 <+MrHairgrease> what about swahili?
18:37 <@rizen> i can barely speak english
18:38 <@rizen> so for me all languages are hard
18:38 < pjesi> I speak Icelandic, English, Danish, and German
18:38 < pjesi> but my danish and german are getting rusty of all this english 
18:39 < PedersenMJ> I speak english. Hablo espanol bastante bien. Por lo menos, yo creo asi. And that's all I speak as far as languages go.
18:39 < pjesi> :)
18:39 < PedersenMJ> Since IRC doesn't support (as far as I know) accents and n with ~, I didn't even try to put those in :)
18:40 < pjesi> one question about webgui, if I provide translations in manymany strange languages, can a single webgui site change between them as the user changes languages
18:43 < pjesi> because I have a lot of translation resources but I dont see it feasible to use them since the multilingual functionality is so limited
18:43 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
18:44 <@rizen> you mean like is done on this webgui site: http://www.ilance.nl/
18:46 < pjesi> yeah something like this, if it in fact changes the translation of the labels
18:46 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
18:46 < pjesi> http://www.ilance.nl/nl/contact
18:46 < pjesi> here, "Send" is dutch?
18:46 < PedersenMJ> Somehow, it's fitting that the first system crash I see on a Mac comes from installing Microsoft software.
18:47 < pjesi> haha
18:47 <@rizen> true
18:47 <@rizen> the language chosen is based upon what user you are
18:47 <@rizen> not what page you are on
18:47 <@rizen> so in this case, you're the visitor user
18:48 <@rizen> if you want it to work the other way, then just submit an RFE
18:48 <@rizen> and rally all the multilingual troops behind you to get it moved to the top of the list
18:49 < pjesi> :)
18:50 < pjesi> I think it is stupid, the time and money that is spent on managing huge website in multiple languages is far more than teaching the visitors English!
18:51 < pjesi> note to self, never agree to work on a multilingual software
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18:53 <@rizen> pjesi, you'll never convince the french or italians of that
18:53 <@rizen> "english" is a vile word in those countries
18:53 < pjesi> they are easier to manipulate than the russians
18:54 <@rizen> yeah, but the russians teach all their children english starting with the first grade
18:54 < pjesi> but their teachers are awful
18:54 <@rizen> that may be true
18:54 <@rizen> i've only known wealthy russians
18:55 <@rizen> so they went to private schools
18:55 < pjesi> hehe
18:56 <@rizen> colin, i fyou care i'm working on http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/content-in-packages-made-from-page-layout-dont-include-content#LKqq1pg017uRs8YsM_1iVg
18:56 <+perlDreamer> cool
18:56 <+perlDreamer> I'm going to fix the failing test from last night
18:56 < pjesi> it looks like Plone satisfies all my multilingual requirements, so perhaps I will migrate 
18:56 <@rizen> k
18:56 <+perlDreamer> then I'll be back at it again
18:56 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
18:57 <@rizen> sorry to hear that, but it's much better that you get the right tool right away than try to shoehorn something that doesn't work
18:57 <+perlDreamer> pjesi: is the sticking point multilingual content vs multilingual interface?
18:58 < pjesi> perlDreamer: they want both
18:58 < pjesi> for me, it doesnt matter which cms is used, I only provide the templates
18:58 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
18:58 <+perlDreamer> would they be willing to use WebGUI and add the multilingual content later?
18:59 < pjesi> for the prototype they are managing the ml content using /en/ /ru/ prefixes of URs
18:59 < pjesi> URLs
19:00 < pjesi> for most sites, I suppose that is fair enough
19:00 < ckotil> this bug might be broader than the description says. i was just trying to create my own page layout as directed in the google sitemap using webgyu wiki entry
19:00 < ckotil> and nothing would get displayed
19:01 < ckotil> but when i would look at the navigation asset that is contained within the page layout , the xml i wanted would be outputed.
19:02 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:04 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: Stop Chatting and Earn Cash, Prizes, and Fame! http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/webgui-community-contests-return
19:04 <+perlDreamer> w00t!
19:05 <@snapcount> I've been so amped about getting this off the ground
19:05 <@snapcount> finally
19:05 <@snapcount> this year is going to be awesome for the community
19:05 <@snapcount> I can feel it in thy bones
19:06 <@snapcount> and Steve promises me he's going to make my page look a bit more "zippy" and less like a developer made it =)
19:06 <+MrHairgrease> nice
19:07 <+MrHairgrease> but I do
19:07 <+MrHairgrease> think the page misses some zest
19:07 <@snapcount> heh indeed
19:07 <+MrHairgrease> it's not zippy enough =)
19:07 <+MrHairgrease> j/k
19:07 <@snapcount> I just couldn't wait to get you guys started and Steve apparently has to "work" or something
19:07 <@snapcount> I don't understand that whole thing
19:07 < pjesi> $250.00 Cash!!
19:07 <@snapcount> he needs to get his priorities straight cough* cough*
19:07 < pjesi> no wait, that is .00
19:08 -!- preaction [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:08 < pjesi> I read 250,000$
19:08 <@snapcount> that would definitely generate some interest
19:08 -!- preaction [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
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19:08 <@snapcount> hell, we might even make digg with that
19:08 <@khenn> so there is a problem with the checkbox form control
19:08 <@khenn> which makes it not work in user profiles
19:08 <@khenn> and that is
19:08 <@snapcount> are the checkmarks facing the wrong way?
19:09 <@khenn> value is set to whatever defaultValue is set to
19:09 <@khenn> or should be
19:09 <@khenn> but it's actually set to what is stored in the database
19:09 <@khenn> and it is never checked
19:09 <+MrHairgrease> so snapcount
19:09 <+MrHairgrease> please tel what the winning subject will be
19:09 < diakopter> can screenshots be put into a wiki entry?
19:09 <@khenn> I'm not sure how to fix this ...
19:09 <+MrHairgrease> and i'll start writing =)
19:09 < pjesi> well, I think WG desperately needs more free themes if it aims for the community
19:09 <@snapcount> hah
19:10 <@snapcount> the winning subject will be about WebGUI
19:10 <@snapcount> pjesi: we agree
19:10 <@khenn> checkbox is expecting value to be passed in as checked
19:10  * MrHairgrease prepares for a very long writing session
19:10 <@snapcount> and I'll give you a bit of insider info
19:10 <@khenn> well for now, I'm going to write my own control
19:10 <@snapcount> that's the next contest
19:10 <@khenn> eh
19:10 < diakopter> form controls?
19:10 <@khenn> yeah
19:10 <@khenn> to fix this I think you have to break the API
19:11 <@snapcount> it's only broke in the Profiles though khenn ?
19:11 <@khenn> right
19:11 <@snapcount> that's very odd
19:11 <@khenn> it's not
19:11 <@khenn> b/c in code, people use it correctly
19:11 <@khenn> the Profile System uses it incorrectly
19:11 <@snapcount> so why will that break the API
19:11 <@khenn> Checkbox is written incorrectly
19:12 <@snapcount> it's implemented wrong in the Profile you mean?
19:12 <@khenn> where everything else expects "value"
19:12 <@khenn> Checkbox expects "-checked"
19:12 <@khenn> hmm
19:12 < pjesi> snapcount: good to hear
19:12 <@khenn> checkboxes actually work differently than normal forms in that fashion
19:13 <@snapcount> don't tell anyone though pjesi 
19:13 <@khenn> where the value is actually the thing
19:13 <@snapcount> that's classified top secret priority 10 alpha 3
19:13 < pjesi> :)
19:13 <@snapcount> an offense punishable by repeated slaps with an overly large sea bass
19:14 <@khenn> so what the profile does, is it gets the value out of the database and sets that to -value
19:14 <@khenn> instead, it should get the value out of the database and match it against the defaultValue, passing in -checked=>defaultValue eq value
19:14 <@khenn> maybe I can fix this
19:14 <@rizen> snapcount
19:15 <@rizen> just noticed two bugs
19:15 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrCookingGrease
19:15 <@rizen> Plain Black Corporation doesn't have a comma in it
19:15 <@rizen> Corperation
19:15 <@snapcount> doh!
19:15 <@snapcount> where is that
19:15 <@rizen> and, you should use the new wiki address
19:15 <@snapcount> on the page or in the news
19:15 <@rizen> http://wiki.webgui.org
19:16 <@rizen> on the wcc page
19:16 <@snapcount> when did that come to exist
19:16 <@rizen> yesterday
19:16 <@snapcount> sweet
19:16 <@snapcount> ok, I'll fix it
19:18 < PedersenMJ> Heh, snap, I'm some small part of the reason it came to exist, since that address is going into theme I'm (hopefully) finishing tonight.
19:18 <@snapcount> nicely done
19:18 <@snapcount> tis a good idea
19:19 < PedersenMJ> I was going to use the current longer url. JT told me to use the wiki.webgui.org one, though, and made it while I waited.
19:20 <@snapcount> rizen: are you saying I spelled corporation as corperation some where?
19:20 <@snapcount> I don't see that one
19:20 <@rizen> no
19:20 <@rizen> just the comma was what i was trying to get across
19:20 <@snapcount> ok
19:20 <@snapcount> ok
19:22 <@snapcount> it
19:22 <@snapcount> err
19:22 <@snapcount> it's all fixed up
19:25 <+perlDreamer> oh I suck
19:25 <+perlDreamer> I really suck
19:25 <+perlDreamer> I really do
19:25 <@khenn> you do?
19:25 <+perlDreamer> it's true
19:26 <+perlDreamer> I broke my own rule about running tests before committing
19:26 <+perlDreamer> and now 7.3.5 has broken Help
19:26 <@khenn> rizen:  I'm fixing checkbox to work properly in the profile
19:26 <@khenn> rizen:  I want to know if you agree with this - 
19:26 <@khenn> rizen:  defaultValue will become the value of the checkbox
19:27 <@khenn> rizen:  the actual data stored will be compared to the defaultValue, and checked will be set if the comparison evaluates to true
19:28 <@rizen> as long as it has the same interface as the other forms, i don't care
19:28 <@rizen> but if you're saying the the defaultValue property will have the same meaning as the value property
19:28 <@rizen> then i have to disagree
19:28 <@rizen> because that's not how all the other forms work
19:29 <@khenn> I understand that
19:29 <@khenn> but
19:29 <@khenn> value in the checkbox sets the value attribute
19:29 <@khenn> which is *not* the actual value
19:30 <@khenn> it is the value of the checkbox
19:30 <@khenn> but it is not whether or not the value is checked
19:30 <@rizen> right
19:30 <@rizen> cuz "checked' is that
19:30 <@khenn> basically there is no way to set what the actual *value* of a checkbox should be
19:30 <@khenn> using the profile system
19:30 <@rizen> then don't use a checkbox
19:30 <@rizen> heh
19:30 <@khenn> should I disable it in the profile then?
19:30 <@khenn> b/c it doesn't work
19:31 <@rizen> either that, or add a special case to the profiling system to be able to handle that field type
19:31 <@rizen> either way, don't change the form
19:31 <@rizen> cuz it works as it should
19:31 <@khenn> no, I'm not changing the form
19:31 <@khenn> I was adding a special case to the Profile system
19:31 <@rizen> ok
19:31 <@rizen> that's fine then
19:31 <@khenn> which will treat defaultValue as the value
19:32 <@khenn> and compare the actual value to the default value to set the checked flag
19:32 <@khenn> alright then
19:32 <@khenn> it shall be so
19:34 <@khenn> I'll also update the documentation to reflect this change
19:35 <@snapcount> earlier someone asked if you can put screen shots in a wiki entry
19:35 <@snapcount> who was that?
19:35 < diakopter> that was ME
19:35 <@snapcount> the answer is yes, unless we disabled that on our site
19:36 <@snapcount> I don't think we have
19:36 <@snapcount> you insert them inline using the RTE
19:36 < diakopter> offchannel someone answered no
19:36 <@snapcount> was it rizen ?
19:36 <@snapcount> hold on
19:36 <@snapcount> I'll try it
19:36 <@snapcount> you can do it
19:37 <@snapcount> In the RTE, click on "Insert WebGUI IMage" icon
19:37 <@snapcount> click on the media link at the top
19:37 <@snapcount> you'll see an option to upload an image
19:37 <@snapcount> you can even organize them into folders if you want
19:42 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
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19:45 <+perlDreamer> rizen: OSCON CFP is open
19:57 <+perlDreamer> guys, say Hi to my friend Jim.  He's starting to use wG
19:59 <@rizen> hi jim
20:00 <@rizen> roy, that's supposed to be disabled
20:00 < PedersenMJ> hi jim
20:01 <+perlDreamer> Jim started using the WRE to host his website
20:01 <+perlDreamer> we're debuggin some problems with his config
20:01 <+perlDreamer> he only sees wG on port 81
20:02 <@rizen> is he already running another web server on port 80?
20:02 <@rizen> and therefore the WRE can't start modproxy on it
20:02 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:03 <+perlDreamer> we'll check
20:04 <+perlDreamer> hrm
20:04 <+perlDreamer> we'll check later
20:04 <+perlDreamer> this machine isn't poked through his firewall
20:04 <+perlDreamer> we
20:04 <@rizen> where is jim
20:04 <+perlDreamer> we'll shell in and try wget
20:04 <@rizen> i don't see him in the channel
20:04 <+perlDreamer> reading over my shoulder
20:04 <@rizen> ah
20:05 <+perlDreamer> He's our lead digital designer and car hacker
20:05 <@rizen> sweet
20:05 <@rizen> i need a good car hack
20:05 <@rizen> i want to run my car on garbage
20:05 <@rizen> like back to the future
20:05 <@rizen> could he invent a mr fusion for me?
20:05 <+perlDreamer> think Monster Garage type car hacker
20:06 <@rizen> yeah, but you also said hes a digital designer
20:06 <+perlDreamer> yeah, you need a physicist and a chemist
20:06 <@rizen> you have to know some physics to do electronics engineering
20:06 <@rizen> and i know a really good chemist
20:07 <@rizen> actually come to think of it, one of my friends is a leading physicist at mayo
20:07 <@rizen> mayo research that is, not the hospital
20:12 < PedersenMJ> Worst part is that I thought mayo, as in mayonnaise, and wondered who would want to spend their career studying the physics of it.
20:14 < ckotil> i would, with some bacon, lettuce, tomato, and bread. tastey research
20:16 < PedersenMJ> And, I would imagine, a fairly short career. Just hope you get sufficient grant money for it.
20:17 <@rizen> i think they do that at hamburger university (mc donalds)
20:18 < PedersenMJ> I don't know what's more frightening: That McD's has a "university" of *any* kind, or that there are people who actually do more than sweep floors there.
20:19 <@khenn> rizen:  can you take a look at something?
20:19 <@khenn> you got a sec?
20:20 <@rizen> sure
20:20 <@rizen> what's up
20:20 <@khenn> look at ProfileField.pm
20:20 <@khenn> linke 184
20:20 <@khenn> $default = WebGUI::Operation::Shared::secureEval($self->session,$properties->{dataDefault});
20:20 <@khenn> $properties->{dataDefault} is unset
20:20 <@khenn> so this never actually happens
20:20 <@khenn> I can fix it
20:21 <@khenn> but I'm not sure if it will change the way the profile field currently works
20:21 <@khenn> it should be $self->get("dataDefault")
20:21 <@khenn> I know what it will do
20:22 <@khenn> it will start filling in anything that is blank with whatever the user specifies in the dataDefault box
20:22 <@khenn> but, I recall you mentioning that what gets filled in is the default data from the visitor profile
20:22 <@khenn> perhaps that won't change
20:22 <@rizen> it's a bug
20:22 <@rizen> fix it
20:26 < PedersenMJ> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Time_to_Deprecate.aspx
20:26 < PedersenMJ> You guys have just *got* to see that snippet.
20:34 <@rizen> perl sux
20:34 <@rizen> let's just rebuild webgui in haskell
20:34 <+perlDreamer> okay
20:34 < diakopter> rotfl
20:36 < PedersenMJ> Nonono. Haskell is still too popular. It has to be either Cobol, or Fortran. Maybe Algol.
20:36 <+perlDreamer> Ada
20:37 <+perlDreamer> where is snapcount's mystical static web site slurper?
20:37 <@rizen> on your wuc conference cd
20:37 < PedersenMJ> Nah, I could actually see using Ada.
20:38 <@rizen> i wish that apache weren't so good, or that i would have designed webgui differently
20:38 <@rizen> it would be nice to run webgui inside of perlbal
20:38 < PedersenMJ> As horrid as it can be, it actually *does* have some good features. Nope,  Ada is not the right choice. Modula-2?
20:40 < PedersenMJ> Wow, never heard of perlbal before. Pretty nice idea, though.
20:48 < PedersenMJ> I wonder... There any docs for trying to set up a webgui cluster?
20:49 < PedersenMJ> ie: set up multiple apache/mod_perl servers, setup a common mysql backend, and get all of that to work?
20:49 <@rizen> there will be a chapter on it in the new admin guide
20:49 <@rizen> i've never written one up before though cuz there are so many ways to do it
20:49 <@rizen> i've done a couple of speeches on it at previous wucs
20:49 <@rizen> and so has len kranendonk
20:50 < PedersenMJ> Cool. Damn, I wish that where I work had waited one more year for their new website (external, we still don't have an intranet, and that's where I'm hoping to get webgui introduced here).
20:50 < PedersenMJ> Pop quiz, JT: What's wrong with this url? http://172.16.1.50/shop/home.aspx
20:51 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: that script has a pretty dumb ass bug in it
20:51 <@snapcount> thanks to yours truly
20:52 <@snapcount> I can tell you how to patch it so you don't wind up with 600 copies of every image and file you import
20:52 <+perlDreamer> that would be nice :)
20:52 <@rizen> the url or the page that follows?
20:52 < PedersenMJ> The url.
20:53 <@snapcount> 1 - Don't create the storage object in the main part of the script
20:53 <@snapcount> right now it does it once and re-uses it
20:53 <@snapcount> 2 - Build the file asset first
20:53 <@snapcount> then call $file->getStorageLocation to get a storage object
20:53 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I suppose there's nothing, technically, wrong with the url. What would be wrong with giving it out to random people on the net would be the more accurate question.
20:53 <@snapcount> and upload the file that way
20:54 <@snapcount> then you'll have to do $file->update{filename=>$whatever});
20:54 <@snapcount> it will be obvious when you look at the code
20:54 <@snapcount> finding that bug however was not so obvious
20:54 <@snapcount> =)
20:54 <+perlDreamer> re-release at the next WUC?
20:55 <@snapcount> actually, you can upload the fixed version to contribs if you want
20:55 <@snapcount> I don't care
20:55 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: what did you think of my WUC session?
20:56 <@snapcount> I loved it
20:56 <+perlDreamer> maybe we could rename it so something less anti-rizen?
20:56 <@snapcount> it would save me from running after scolded newcomers who get their feelings hurt
20:56 <@snapcount> don't leave! no! come back!
20:57 <@snapcount> r u kidding?
20:57 <@snapcount> that's the best part =D
20:58 <+perlDreamer> we could record it and podcast it from PB.com
20:58 < diakopter> you own pb.com?
20:58 <+perlDreamer> I'm too lazy to type plainblack
20:58 <@snapcount> I want to buy pbandj.com
20:58 <@snapcount> then put that peanut butter jelly animation on it
20:58 <@snapcount> with nothing else
20:59 <@snapcount> peanut butterrr jelllA
20:59 < ckotil> hehe
20:59 <@snapcount> repeat
20:59 <@snapcount> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/peanutbutter.html
20:59 <@snapcount> Go Bannana GO!! GO!
21:00  * snapcount bobs his head
21:01 <@snapcount> you know the really sad part is that without the proper medication I could watch this for hours
21:01 <+perlDreamer> focus, dude
21:01 <+perlDreamer> steady on
21:01 <@snapcount> hehe
21:01 <+perlDreamer> well, we now have another happy wG user
21:01 <@snapcount> excellent smithers
21:02 < PedersenMJ> Hey, snapcount, question for you: On importing a theme. Is there any actual requirement that the theme go under the import node? Or could someone set up a folder under root called Themes, and import stuff there, for instance?
21:02 < diakopter> that makes 3 :-P
21:02 <@snapcount> you can put it where ever you want
21:02 < PedersenMJ> diakopter: You counting me in that elite group?
21:02 <@snapcount> it matters not
21:02 < diakopter> no, but some people count multiple negatives.
21:02 < PedersenMJ> Cool. I think I might make it into my own personal standard to do a themes folder.
21:02 <@snapcount> diakopter: who are the other 2?
21:02 <@preaction> snapcount:  you can't watch it forever, it ends after like 3 minutes
21:02 <@snapcount> you can click refresh tyvm
21:03 <@preaction> perlbot tyvm?
21:03 <@preaction> wtf? omg? bbq?
21:03 <@snapcount> thank you very much
21:03 <@snapcount> just made it up
21:03 <@snapcount> FTW!
21:03 <@preaction> X gets the block?
21:04 <+perlDreamer> perlbot tell snapcount about pDC
21:04 <@snapcount> nice
21:04 < diakopter> perlbot tell diakopter about pDC
21:04 <@snapcount> pomade is still the best calc ever of all time for ever and always
21:05 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_away
21:05 <@preaction> you know what? you can just stop harping on perlbot, she did nothing to you
21:06 <+perlDreamer> preaction: we're just waiting for you to build a spectre interface into her
21:06 <+perlDreamer> so we can do commits
21:08 < PedersenMJ> I can just imagine  the code that could be sent from an irc channel straight into webgui.
21:11 <+MrCookingGrease> PedersenMJ: http://172.16.1.50/shop/home.aspx is in a local ip range
21:11 <+MrCookingGrease> so you cannot get to from the internet
21:11 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. I had o tell that to the people who are making our new website.
21:11 -!- MrCookingGrease is now known as MrHairgrease
21:11 <+MrHairgrease> heh
21:15 < PedersenMJ> What's worse, though, is that they were complaining that they couldn't access our test servers using that url.
21:16 <+MrHairgrease> just tell them that the should not complain that the internet i still working correctlt =)
21:22 < PedersenMJ> Gods, I wish that were the only problem I'd had with them. I'd kill to be using webgui instead of what we're getting.
21:23 <@rizen> what are you using?
21:23 < PedersenMJ> Ever hear of a company named Devix?
21:23 <@rizen> nope
21:24 < PedersenMJ> It's something they built. And, to some degree, are still building. Even though they promised us everything would be ready by Sept 30.
21:25 < PedersenMJ> Oh, wait, in case it wasn't obvious, sep 30, 2006./
21:26 <@snap_away> oh that reminds me
21:26 < PedersenMJ> We've got a cluster, but one machine is critical, since they have a program which can only run on one machine, and it has to run on one of the web servers.
21:27 <@snap_away> which one of you guys broke the smoketests after I left for class?
21:27 <@snap_away> come on fess up
21:27 <+perlDreamer> after?  try before
21:27 <@snap_away> before?
21:27 <@snap_away> they all passed at least an hour before I left for class
21:27 <@snap_away> I ran them before trying to do the release
21:27 <@preaction> which one of you guys didn't run the smoke tests before they released webgui?
21:27 <@preaction> :p
21:27 <+perlDreamer> after you left for class, before you released
21:28 <@snap_away> I did run
21:28 <@snap_away> it
21:28 <+perlDreamer> then we made a bunch of commits
21:28 <@snap_away> I decided to release anyway b/c it's not stable
21:28 <+perlDreamer> it was me
21:28  * perlDreamer is shamed
21:28  * perlDreamer had to iron his hands
21:28 <@snap_away> and I couldn't figure it out in two seconds
21:28 <@snap_away> of all the people perlDreamer 
21:28 <@snap_away> you are the rock
21:28 <@snap_away> our anchor
21:28  * snap_away cues dramatic music
21:28  * perlDreamer has rocks, in head
21:29 <@snap_away> and this is what we have for thanks!!!!!!!
21:29 <@snap_away> dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNN
21:29 <@snap_away> ok
21:29  * perlDreamer wails, sackcloth and ashes
21:29 <@snap_away> anyways, please fix it before next Wed
21:29 <@snap_away> carry on
21:29 <+perlDreamer> it's fixed already
21:29 <@snap_away> rock on
21:30 -!- snap_away is now known as snapcount
21:31 <@snapcount> gotta love being asked to fix something when you're given only enough access to view the problem
21:31 <@snapcount> sigh*
21:31 <+perlDreamer> the joys of support
21:31 <@snapcount> and my "handler" is away
21:31 <@snapcount> my goto man, the cleaner
21:31 <+perlDreamer> who's what?
21:31 <@snapcount> Vrby is the new "handler"
21:32 <+perlDreamer> ah
21:32 <@snapcount> he sends us on missions
21:32 <@preaction> call his cell, or ask JT for his house phone
21:32 <+perlDreamer> that explains the email I got this morning
21:32 <@snapcount> kind of like geek squad, but not lame
21:32 <@snapcount> I'm going to give him 5 mins or so
21:32 <@preaction> since he has this job now, he gets to be the bothered-at-all-hours-guy
21:32 <@snapcount> he probably just stepped away
21:32 <@snapcount> heh
21:33 <+perlDreamer> so you and JT and Frank are off the hook?
21:55 <@snapcount> hah!
21:55 <@snapcount> we're never off the hook
21:56 <@snapcount> you know how it goes
21:56 <@snapcount> Vrby is protected
21:56 <@snapcount> he's a don
21:56 <@snapcount> as are JT and Frank
21:56 <@snapcount> so I'm not off the hook nor is Doug
21:56 <@snapcount> we just kind of roll with the punches =)
21:56 <@snapcount> but it keeps us nimble
21:57 <@snapcount> btw Doug, I just got your PBWG picture from Steve
21:57 <+perlDreamer> snapcount is a rocker _and_ a roller
21:57 <+MrHairgrease> no
21:57 <+MrHairgrease> elvis is
21:57 <@snapcount> you look like a professional killer
21:57 <+perlDreamer> elvis is dead, son
21:57 <@snapcount> which is very cool
21:57 <@snapcount> Elvis is right here
21:57 <+MrHairgrease> what
21:57 <@snapcount> next to me
21:57 <+MrHairgrease> are you on mars?
21:57 <@snapcount> close, Florida
21:58 <+MrHairgrease> everybody knows martians took elvis
21:58 <+MrHairgrease> it's on the internet
21:58 <@snapcount> I named one of my Gooey dolls Elvis
21:58 <@preaction> and then created florida
21:58 <@snapcount> and he's on my desk next to me
21:58 <@snapcount> the inter-webs
21:59 <@snapcount> ok, have to get back on this sql report
21:59 < diakopter> my dog uses our gooey as a humping platform.  he's not a large dog.
21:59 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_away
21:59 < pjesi> PedersenMJ: do you develop your theme on the filesystem or using webgui?
21:59 <@snap_away> diakopter: that's funny and disturbing
21:59 <@snap_away> very nice
22:00 <@snap_away> that conversation could get interesting quickly especially when one considers the name of the WebGUI mascot
22:00  * perlDreamer makes sure the kids can't read the screen
22:01 -!- perlDreamer is now known as lunchDreamer
22:01 <@snap_away> heh
22:01 <@snap_away> we keep it pg-13
22:01 <@snap_away> I think we do anyway
22:01 <@preaction> here? pg-13? rofles
22:01 < ckotil> yeah i was gonna say.. its hardly pg13
22:01  * preaction refrains from JT's catchphrase
22:01 <@snap_away> never seen someone use a text emote as a verb before
22:01 <@snap_away> that was cool
22:01 < ckotil> i see the f bomb every now and then
22:02 <@snap_away> every kid knows that by 13
22:02 <@preaction> oh, then fuck the fucking fuckers
22:02 <@snap_away> they teach it in the schools
22:02 <@snap_away> =)
22:02 <@snap_away> ok I'm really away now... back to the boring work
22:05 < PedersenMJ> pjesi: I start on the filesystem, figuring out what I'm going to do with the files I've got, then quickly move into using webgui.
22:12 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
22:12 -!- mode/#webgui [+v crythias] by ChanServ
22:24 < pjesi> ok
22:24 < pjesi> the problem I have is that I usually end up changing several Asset templates to produced desired look
22:26 < PedersenMJ> I haven't changed a single asset template yet. Though, very likely, one will come up soon enough.
22:34 <@snap_away> I need some SQL help
22:34 -!- snap_away is now known as snapcount
22:34 <@snapcount> can someone give me a good link or quickly explain what happens when you have more than one left join in a statement
22:35 < PedersenMJ> The results of the first join are treated as a table, and then left joined on the second ON clause.
22:35 <@rizen> when you have more than one left join
22:35 <@rizen> the second join is added to the first
22:35 <@rizen> and so on
22:35 <@rizen> so you end up with one giant virtual table
22:35 <@snapcount> to the result of the first?
22:35 <@rizen> yes
22:35 <@snapcount> ok
22:35 <@snapcount> wow... kind of hard to visualize
22:35 <@snapcount> I need to digest
22:36  * snapcount pauses and reflects
22:36 <@snapcount> thanks
22:36 < PedersenMJ> Think of it like this:
22:36 <@rizen> no think of it like this
22:36 <@rizen> you have a bird
22:36 <@rizen> and a worm
22:36 <@snapcount> haha
22:36 <@rizen> the bird is the sql
22:36 <@rizen> the worm is you
22:36 < PedersenMJ> select a,b from table 1 == Get a,b from table 1, all rows
22:37 <@rizen> how do you win?
22:37 <@snapcount> run
22:37 <@rizen> you can't run
22:37 <@snapcount> into the dirt
22:37 <@rizen> ok
22:37 <@rizen> that's right
22:37 <@rizen> you hide
22:37 <@rizen> that's the only way to beat sql
22:37 <@snapcount> lmao
22:37 <@snapcount> nice
22:37 <@rizen> or anything that's hard to wrap your brain around
22:37 <@rizen> i say just give up now
22:37 <@snapcount> I need to pull a Ricky Bobby and face the Cougar
22:38 <@snapcount> you don't allow us to quit
22:38 <@snapcount> I learned that the first couple days on the job
22:39 <@snapcount> "Don't worry about quitting, I'll just fire you when you suck too bad, otherwise just keep working until you die"
22:39 <@rizen> you can't quit plain black
22:39 <@rizen> or anything i tell you to do
22:39 <@snapcount> you didn't say that
22:39 <@snapcount> but it sounds like something you would say
22:39 <@rizen> but you can quit something that you're trying to do
22:39 <@rizen> actually, what i think i said was "you're it until you die or i find someone better"
22:39 <@snapcount> left joins never really clicked with me
22:40 <@snapcount> time to make some small tables and conquer this
22:40 <@snapcount> I need to understand this anyways
22:40 <@snapcount> rizen: there you go
22:41 <@preaction> starship troopers?
22:41 <@rizen> yup
22:41 <@rizen> i don't know why, but i love that movie
22:42 <@preaction> it's the awesomeness of Paul Verhoven and Robert Heinlein rolled into one
22:44 < ckotil> if you like that movie you should play the new xbox 360 game Lost Planet: Extreme Conditions
22:44 < ckotil> its amazing
22:44 <@rizen> i don't buy microsoft products
22:44 < ckotil> you're missing out.
22:44 <@rizen> nope
22:44 <@preaction> i almost hate to admit i'm considering a 360, since the PS3 will never be purchased by me (sony being worse than ms these days)
22:45 <@preaction> i played Gears of War, it rocks all high
22:45 <@rizen> yeah i wouldn't buy that either
22:45 < ckotil> since you've held out htis long, i'd just wait for a price break
22:45 < ckotil> GoW is amazing
22:45 < ckotil> its going to be a trilogy
22:45 <@rizen> snapcount....you forgot to create tonersandcartridges.com in dns
22:45 <@rizen> is it ok if i call you a tard on the support boards?
22:46 <@preaction> it's pretty cool that tiffany did some self-checking first, good to see initiative
22:48 <@rizen> yup
22:48 < ckotil> anyone know if ^LastModifiedPage(<tmpl_var page.url>,,%y-%m-%dT%h:%n:%s+00:00); that macro comes with 7.2.3 ?
22:48 <@rizen> but that doesn't change the fact that i want to call roy a tard on the support boards
22:48 <@snapcount> I did?
22:49 <@snapcount> oh crap
22:49 <@snapcount> yeah I did...
22:49 <@snapcount> call me an idiot
22:49 <@snapcount> i deserve it
22:49 <@rizen> listen...idiot isn't good enough
22:49 <@snapcount> who'd a thunk her client wouldn't want to just use the alias forever
22:49 <@rizen> well, basically anyone but you apparently
22:50 <@rizen> =)
22:50 <@snapcount> I'm having a bad week
22:50 <@snapcount> everything seems hard and it's not
22:50  * snapcount kicks snapcount in the arse
22:50 <@snapcount> "Get with it Sally!"
22:51 <@snapcount> ok I understand the point of a left join now
22:51 <@snapcount> didn't see a practical use for one
22:51 <@snapcount> until now
22:51 <@snapcount> now to throw table 3 in the mix
22:51 <@rizen> are you kidding
22:51 <@rizen> there's dozens and dozens of them in webgui all over the place?
22:51 <@rizen> have you seen them?
22:54 <@snapcount> yeah I know... I have to look up what a left join does each time I have to work with one
22:54 <@snapcount> and then I forget it
22:54 <@snapcount> so I'm facing it
22:54 <@snapcount> committing to memory
22:55 <@snapcount> inner join makes sense now as well
22:55 <@snapcount> I see a pattern developing
22:55 <@snapcount> right join seems redundant
22:55 <@preaction> it is, last i knew
22:55 <@snapcount> ok good
22:55 <@snapcount> maybe I'm seeing the light after all
22:56 <@preaction> no, that's the drugs
22:57 <@snapcount> funny you mention that
22:57 <@snapcount> my "concentrate dumb ass" afternoon dose is starting to work
22:57 <@snapcount> really freaky b/c it's almost night and day difference, very noticable
22:58 <@preaction> weird
22:58 <@snapcount> almost like a slap in the face
22:58 <@snapcount> almost instant too
22:58 <@snapcount> scared the crap out of me the first time
22:58 <@snapcount> did I just spell the result of a wound
22:58 <@snapcount> or convey I experienced fear?
22:58 <@snapcount> I hate spelling
22:59 <@snapcount> or are they spelled the same
22:59 <@preaction> scarred
22:59 <@snapcount> Being scared scared me because I wanted to be a model"
23:00 <@snapcount> The thought of being scarred scared me because I want to model
23:00 <@snapcount> is that right?
23:00 <@snapcount> looks right
23:01 <@snapcount> so the left most table in a query with multiple left joins will return the most rows (least restrictive)
23:03 <@preaction> i don't know, i've only ever used them in 1 to 1 relationships
23:03 <@preaction> i use them, i know what they do, but i don't really understand them
23:05 <@snapcount> for me it was pretty much " I can look up what they do, but I don't really understand them"
23:06 <@preaction> oh.. i think i get it now
23:06 <@preaction> lets say you have a b and c, b is joined to a, and c is joined to b,a (so select from a join b join c)
23:06 <@preaction> for each matching row in C, it will fill in the results in b and a
23:07 <@preaction> nevermind, i don't get it
23:07 <@preaction> basically it starts by looking at the C's on clause, then back to the B's on clause
23:07 <@preaction> i think
23:27 < PedersenMJ> Other way around, preaction. It starts in table a, then takes rows in table b that match table a, then takes rows in table c that match what it found in table (ab)
23:27 <@preaction> oh, left most
23:27 <@preaction> not right most :p
23:27 <@snapcount> yeah
23:27 <@snapcount> I get it now too
23:28 <@snapcount> I was thinking of it the way you just described which was throwing me
23:28 <@snapcount> it's kind of cool actually
23:28 <@rizen> so i have a crazy new idea for assets
23:28 <@rizen> to make them much faster
23:29 <@snapcount> call them quick read assets
23:29 <@snapcount> hehe
23:29 <@rizen> let me run it by you guys
23:29 <@rizen> and please poke holes in it
23:29 <@snapcount> shoot
23:29 <@rizen> there will be only 2 tables for assets
23:29 <@rizen> asset and assetData
23:29 <@rizen> as there are now
23:29 <@rizen> but all the class tables will not exist
23:30 <@rizen> instead, a new field will be added to the assetData table
23:30 <@rizen> called extraProperties or something like that
23:30 <@rizen> and all the extra stuff will be stored in it
23:30 <@rizen> serialzied with freeze/thaw 
23:30 <@rizen> or maybe a high performance json parser
23:30 <@rizen> that part is irrelevant
23:31 <@rizen> cuz to the developer it's all transparent
23:31 <@rizen> then as a dev if you need to get a list of all the assets that have x=y in those extra properties
23:31 <@rizen> you don't use the database or database queries any longer
23:31 <@rizen> instead, you use the search system
23:32 <@rizen> as part of this, the search system will be updated to be able to index arbitrary fields
23:32 <@rizen> so that you can do complex searching
23:32 <@rizen> even more so than you can now
23:32 <@rizen> here are the advantages
23:32 <@rizen> a) we eliminate about 40 tables from our schema
23:33 <@rizen> b) asset instanciation will be much faster because the join will be much simpler (only 2 tables instead of 3,4,5 etc)
23:33 <@rizen> c) looking for a list of assets will be easier and faster because of the high performance search index
23:33 <@rizen> rather than searching against big joins as we do now
23:33 <@snapcount> so each record will duplicate the extended properties definition for an asset, i.e., serialized (myproperty=foo,myOtherProperty=foo2)
23:33 <@rizen> d) asset development will be easier cuz you won't need to develop a database table
23:34 <@rizen> unless you have collateral data
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> question
23:34 <@rizen> e) if you only have a small amount of collateral data, you can serialize it into a field
23:34 <@rizen> rather than creating extra tables
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> how can mysql cope with the diffrent schemas in the extraProperties column
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> for searchin that is
23:34 <@rizen> snapcount: yes
23:34 <+MrHairgrease> or is that still handled the way it is now?
23:35 <@snapcount> well one thing that could be very tricky
23:35 <@snapcount> is if you need to change the schema for an upgrade
23:35 <@rizen> mrhairgrease: as i was saying, we'll have to alter how we do indexing a little bitt
23:36 <@rizen> snapcount: no, cuz now the schema is dynamic
23:36 <@rizen> need to delete a field?
23:36 <@snapcount> you would just unserialize it , manipulate it, whatever, reserialize, insert
23:36 <@rizen> it will automatically be deleted the next time the data is set
23:36 <@snapcount> or update rather
23:36 <@rizen> cuz it isn't part of the schema anymore
23:37 <@rizen> no...as a developer, it would just happen automatically
23:37 <@rizen> meaning your schema is only defined in the asset
23:37 <@rizen> definition method
23:37 <@rizen> not in the database
23:37 <@rizen> so you don't even have to worry about it
23:37 <@rizen> webgui's api would do all the work for you
23:37 <@snapcount> and then update would deal with changing data
23:37 <@rizen> yup
23:38 <@snapcount> well, the size of that field could be pretty big in some circumstances
23:38 <@snapcount> but I don't think that matters
23:39 <@rizen> any other reasons why this is dumb?
23:39 <@rizen> incidentally, this can be added to the current api without breaking anything
23:40 <@preaction> what about custom SQL reports that rely on the Asset tables?
23:40 <@snapcount> those would break
23:40 <@snapcount> unless the sql report could do the translation
23:40 <@rizen> no longer possible at least not with the data thats in the extras field
23:41 <@rizen> if we serialize to json
23:41 <@rizen> then the data could still be used client side
23:41 <@rizen> and on top of that
23:41 <@rizen> we don't really recommend querying the webgui data that much anyway
23:41 <@rizen> because the schema changes so much
23:41 <@rizen> and because the queries are rediculously complex now that we have versioning
23:42 <@rizen> no non-webgui developer could likely figure it out very easily
23:42 <@rizen> and as roy has just proven, even webgui developers are confused by it
23:42  * snapcount bows
23:42 <@snapcount> thank you, thank you
23:42 <@rizen> i see only one down side
23:43 <@rizen> and that's the one that preaction just pointed out
23:43 <@rizen> custom sql queries
23:43 <@rizen> whether in an sql report or not
23:43 <@rizen> will not be possible
23:43 <@rizen> you need to use the api
23:43 <@preaction> i personally feel that storing a data structure as text is horrible, normalization can go overboard, but this is necessary
23:43 <@rizen> normally i would agree with you preaction
23:44 <@preaction> of course, if the API is designed appropriately, perhaps some Assets that use the search API to return arbitrary results of queries (to replace SQLReport doing that) that would work better (from a user standpoint)
23:44 <@rizen> but i'm more concerned with performance these days
23:44 <@rizen> agreed
23:44 <@snapcount> we could have a lot of code to update
23:44 <@preaction> we can provide a replacement, but we still break API
23:44 <@snapcount> b/c of the queries the assets themselves you
23:44 <@snapcount> use
23:44 -!- lunchDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
23:44 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: do you mean core code or custom code?
23:44 <@snapcount> both
23:44 <@rizen> NOPE
23:45 <@preaction> we should have someplace where we keep track of future api changes (in 2010, when we can do things again)
23:45 <@rizen> this can be built as an add on that doesn't have to affect the other assets
23:45 <@rizen> some assets can work the old way
23:45 <@rizen> and some the new way
23:45 <@snapcount> ahh
23:45 <@rizen> i've already designed it in my head
23:45 <@snapcount> well in that case
23:45 <@rizen> preaction...we can do this in 7.4 if we wanted to
23:45 <@snapcount> sql report would continue to work for peoples custom stuff too
23:46 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrAfkGrease
23:46 <@rizen> for their own custom assets
23:46 <@rizen> but not for core assets
23:46 <@snapcount> yeah
23:46 <@rizen> cuz we'd convert core assets
23:46 <@snapcount> I'm with ya
23:46 <@preaction> we could potentially break custom code
23:46 <@rizen> no we can't
23:46 <@rizen> at least not custom plugin code
23:46 <@snapcount> he just explained why =)
23:46 <@rizen> like assets
23:47 <@rizen> maybe a utility script that relies on articles to have an Article table
23:47 <@rizen> we could break
23:47 <+perlDreamer> It would break the ^Page macro
23:47 <@preaction> unless temporarily the core assets use both methods to store data, and we just use the faster way in core to retrieve things
23:47 <+perlDreamer> not all fields would be available through it anymore
23:47 <@rizen> all fields would be available perl dreamer
23:47 <@rizen> $asset->get($field);
23:47 <@rizen> still works the same way
23:47 <+perlDreamer> okay, cool
23:48 <@rizen> the entire API continues to work as it does
23:48 <@rizen> the only thing that changes is the database schema
23:48 <@rizen> so therefore
23:48 <@rizen> the only things that break
23:48 <@preaction> was the db schema part of your promise?
23:48 <@rizen> are things that use their own custom queries
23:48 <@rizen> hell no
23:48 <@rizen> if it were
23:48 <@rizen> we couldn't do anything
23:49 <@rizen> i said that the API would not break
23:49 <@rizen> and more importantly
23:49 <@rizen> i said plugins wouldn't break
23:49 <@preaction> then i'd wait till 7.5, and let everyone know now exactly what's going to happen so they can prepare (by stopping using custom sql queries like they shouldn't, and using the api like they should)
23:49 <@rizen> so if you write an asset today, it will still work
23:49 <@rizen> i'm not saying we're even going to do this
23:49 <@rizen> i'm just saying we could do it in 7.4 and everything would be honky dory
23:50 <@rizen> if we do it
23:50 <@snapcount> I think we could even write a compatibility mode that would allow things to work both ways at the same time
23:50 <@rizen> it won't be until after this summer
23:50 <@snapcount> but it would be slow
23:50 <@preaction> i'm actually for it, after those things are addressed
23:50 <+perlDreamer> maybe we could look at using views and get rid of all the JOIN's in the SQL code
23:50 <@rizen> we can also do that pd
23:50 <@preaction> reduce the complexity of the db schema is good idea
23:50 <@rizen> however views are only slightly better performing than joins
23:51 <@rizen> getting rid of joins/views all together
23:51 <@rizen> will make things much faster
23:51 <+perlDreamer> you could still have a view for asset/assetData
23:51 <@rizen> true
23:51 <@preaction> anyone who's further in WBP, is there anything against using do FILENAME?
23:52 <@snapcount> if there was a config file option "compatOn", webgui could extrapoloate table definitions for each asset when modperl starts and create temporary tables.  The code would also have to update the new way and old way if the mode was on.
23:52 <@snapcount> maybe that's too far out ther
23:52 <+perlDreamer> preaction: aside from having potential dangerous code?
23:52 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
23:52 <@rizen> preaction do you mean a plain text variable?
23:52 <@preaction> perlDreamer: if people have commit access to SVN, we have to trust them
23:52 <@rizen> FILENAME
23:52 <@snapcount> but that could cause integrety problems if something errored
23:52 <@rizen> cuz they say no
23:52 <@preaction> no, do script.pl
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23:53 <@rizen> where do is a vrb?
23:53 <@rizen> verb
23:53 <@preaction> rather: eval { do script.pl }; die $@ if $@;
23:53 <@preaction> yes
23:53 <@rizen> i didn't even know you could do that
23:53 <@rizen> but there is a section about do 
23:53 <@preaction> perldoc -f do
23:53 <@rizen> and they say don't
23:54 <@rizen> it says forget do exists
23:54 <@preaction> crap, i was hoping this upgrade system could be made more modular without having to actually make modules, maybe Module::Pluggable instead
23:55 <+perlDreamer> rizen: Did you see my note about the OSCON call for papers being open?
23:55 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT, quick question for my current theme? Since I'm inserting webgui links and info all over this theme, I'm wondering if I can add the quotes in that I can find at: http://www.plainblack.com/success_stories
23:56 <@rizen> pd: yes i saw it
23:56 <@rizen> haven't decided whether i'm interested or not
23:56 <+perlDreamer> okay
23:56 <+perlDreamer> are you bug fixing?
23:56 <@rizen> sort of
23:56 <@rizen> intel mac wre
23:56 <@rizen> all my devs have intel macs
23:56 <@rizen> and can't dev on them
23:57 <@rizen> they have to use parallels
23:57 <@rizen> with linux
23:57 <@rizen> pdersen: yes
23:57 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'm going to see if preaction will help me with the time bug in the Calendar, then
23:57 <+perlDreamer> preactoin, whaddya say?
23:57 <@preaction> what's the bug?
23:58 <+perlDreamer> UTC vs local time zone in editing existing calendar times
23:58 < PedersenMJ> JT: Thanks. Hopefully will finish this one tonight, and you can see my fuss about it and be happy :)
23:58 <@preaction> they're stored as UTC in the database and converted to/from the user's local time when displaying/editing
23:59 <+perlDreamer> I don't think so
23:59 <+perlDreamer> Would it help if I made a test case on demo?
23:59 <@preaction> sure, or is there a bug report somewhere?
--- Day changed Fri Jan 19 2007
00:00 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/calendar-start/end-date-time-off-in-edit-interface#Rl0Jb4Gmt-pihddkbZ2pc
00:00 <@preaction> but it shows the correct time in all other pages?
00:00 <+perlDreamer> I didn't notice
00:01 <+perlDreamer> I think the problem is in toMysql
00:01 <+perlDreamer> it sets the TZ to be UTC
00:01 <+perlDreamer> and then the time form doesn't touch it if it is in mysql format
00:01 <@preaction> i continually attempt to tell frank that timezone needs to be completely in the hands of the developer, but he tells me to do it automatically
00:01 <@preaction> so i add that code
00:02 <@preaction> and break things
00:02 <+perlDreamer> well, toMysql should put it in UTC, because that's what Mysql uses
00:02 <+perlDreamer> but none of the other things do
00:02 <@preaction> the other toMysql* can't
00:02 <+perlDreamer> so if I replace this: split / /, $self->getDateTimeStart->toMysql
00:03 <+perlDreamer> with toMysqlDate and toMySqlTime it will be fine?
00:03 <@preaction> for now, it's hiding a deeper issue with how i'm handling time zones
00:03 <@preaction> in that it should never be handled automatically
00:03 <+perlDreamer> well, we have the majority of the devs here online
00:03 <+perlDreamer> maybe we should set it in stone?
00:03 <@preaction> or.. maybe it should be handled automatically in the toMysql* methods
00:04 <@snapcount> I vote for Death, "off with the head!"
00:04 <@preaction> i mean, for consistency at least
00:04 <@preaction> if they want the mysql format without UTC, they can use strtftime
00:04 < PedersenMJ> snapcount: No, I think I'll choose cake please.
00:05 <+perlDreamer> you know, it _could_ be very WBP to export formats instead of methods
00:05 <@preaction> i'm beginning to suspect they gave me the calendar because of all the headaches it causes :p
00:05 <+perlDreamer> you would be correct :)
00:05 <+perlDreamer> no one else wanted to work on it
00:05 <@snapcount> hey at least you don't have to be the one to rewrite the EMS
00:05 <+perlDreamer> but you've made a great start on revamping it
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00:05 <+perlDreamer> no, that is true
00:06 <@snapcount> that will be an adventure for sure
00:06 <+perlDreamer> EMS?
00:06 <@snapcount> Event Management System
00:06 <+perlDreamer> yeah, I meant vs the calendar
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00:06 <@snapcount> what about it vs the calendar
00:07 <@snapcount> as far as revamping
00:07 <+perlDreamer> having to rewrite the calendar vs the EMS
00:07 < PedersenMJ> So, now I know: rsync to OSX of 40G of data is very unkind to the machine.
00:07 <@snapcount> I'd say the calendar is cake
00:07 <@preaction> perlDreamer: how about instead you just change toMysqlDate and toMysqlTime to convert automatically, document it, and see what breaks
00:07 <@preaction> or i can, but not today
00:07 <+perlDreamer> to convert to UTC?
00:08 <@preaction> yes
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00:08 <@preaction> we'll assume that any time they want the Mysql string, they're storing, and when they store it should be in UTC
00:08 <@preaction> ... but immediately after getting a date in a timezone from a user they should be converting to UTC...
00:09 <@rizen> i thought that the plan with the new date time system was that everything was in UTC
00:09 <@rizen> all the time
00:09 <@rizen> and then you had to convert it to the user's time
00:09 <@rizen> for display
00:09 <@preaction> yes
00:09 <@preaction> in that case, toMysql* should always convert
00:09 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I'll give it a shot
00:09 <+perlDreamer> we can always revert it if it causes too many problems
00:10 <+perlDreamer> btw, only the Event and Calendar use WG::DateTime
00:10 <@rizen> there is no going back
00:10 <@rizen> not ever
00:10 <@preaction> the problem lies in when we're given a date/time, the author has to make sure to specify what timezone it's in. are we getting it from the db (UTC) or the user ($session->user->profileField('timezone'))
00:10 <@preaction> frank's been making code that uses it now
00:10 <+perlDreamer> If I make this change, it will break it
00:11 <+perlDreamer> but if it's the right thing to do, maybe we should anyway
00:11 <@preaction> i'm for changing it, when the constructor is given a mysql date/time, it assumes UTC
00:12 <@preaction> so, to store it in one and assume it's UTC later, it bad
00:13 <+perlDreamer> do all events that have been created in a calendar have the wrong times then?
00:14 <@preaction> i thought i was converting right away, in the form elements
00:15 <+perlDreamer> let me duplicate it on demo just to be sure
00:15 <+perlDreamer> crap
00:15 <+perlDreamer> I can't duplicate it on demo
00:15 <@preaction> ahh, when i changed toMysql to be UTC, it broke things
00:15 <@preaction> the form elements should be handling this timezone crap
00:16 <@preaction> ... rather the DateTime.pm does, but Date.pm and Time.pm cannot (rather Date.pm cannot, and so Time.pm shouldn't for consistency)
00:16 <+perlDreamer> why not?
00:17 <@preaction> because how do we know when we go back a day in the date?
00:17 <@preaction> it's based on time, we don't have one
00:17 <+perlDreamer> time sucks
00:18 <@preaction> so if Time.pm translates, and Date.pm doesn't, we don't know if Time.pm has gone past 0:00 and needs to alter the date
00:18 <@preaction> which is why i just fell into only translating when i had a full date/time string to worry about
00:18 < PedersenMJ> But, perlDreamer, the faster you are moving, the slower it sucks, and therefore the less it sucks. It just won't seem it to you.
00:19 <@preaction> unfortunately, because of "All Day Events", I can't use Date/Time and must use separate date and time fields
00:20 <+perlDreamer> then you have to resolve all the time zones in the Asset and feed info to the forms and have it just pass them, not adjust them
00:20 <@preaction> and that's why toMysqlDate and toMysqlTime can't translate, because of those form elements
00:20 <@preaction> yes
00:20 <+perlDreamer> well, we're back at the begining then
00:20 <@preaction> we can shortcut it in the full Date/Time strings, but not anywhere else
00:21 <@preaction> i was... incredibly strung-out when i wrote some of this, and then i shut down for a while :p
00:21 <@preaction> at any rate, WebGUI::DateTime cannot change, it is most likely a translation issue in Event.pm
00:22 <@preaction> and a pox on Frank for putting a session object in WebGUI::DateTime's constructor, which is going to create all sorts of problems
00:23 <+perlDreamer> why?
00:23 <@preaction> because when it does these timezone things automatically, things get even more confuses
00:23 <@preaction> i mean, what do we do with the current user's timezone? is that the timezone the date we're constructing with is using? is that the timezone that it gets converted to? wtf?
00:24 <@preaction> oh, i think i convinced him of that and he's only using it to set Locale
00:24 <@preaction> (which means automatically translated month and day names)
00:26 < PedersenMJ> Hey, totally off-topic question for everybody: Anybody here have one of these "sunrise simulating" alarm clocks that they use? If so, what do you think of it? Pondering ordering one right now, and want some other optinions.
00:27 <@preaction> perlDreamer: yes, i am going to say with all confidence that it is merely a problem of translation in the edit form. the recurrence start/end date is also not translated properly
00:27 <@preaction> i say "merely" when this is something that will probably take you an hour to wrap your head around
00:28 <@preaction> i'm getting sleepy just thinking about it
00:29 <+perlDreamer> well, let me think out loud
00:29 <+perlDreamer> the default start handles the user's time zone
00:29 <+perlDreamer> my $default_start       = WebGUI::DateTime->new($session->form->param("start") || time)
00:29 <+perlDreamer>                                 ->set_time_zone($tz);
00:29 <+perlDreamer>         
00:30 <+perlDreamer> It's only the date and time that are returned from getDateTimeStart that are problematic
00:30 <@preaction> should getDateTimeStart translate you think?
00:30 <@preaction> no, nevermind
00:30 <+perlDreamer> that's what I was thinking
00:30 <@preaction> it should be $self->getDateTimeStart->set_time_zone
00:31 <+perlDreamer> getDateTimeStart returns stuff in the user's time zone
00:31 <+perlDreamer> toMysql resets it to UTC
00:31 <@preaction> getDateTimeStart is just a quick way to get a WebGUI::DateTime made with the various ways that an event can start
00:31 <@preaction> it does? it shouldn't imho
00:31 <+perlDreamer> my ($startDate,$startTime) = split / /, $self->getDateTimeStart->toMysql
00:32 <@rizen> what makes your opinion honest?
00:32 <+perlDreamer> ihpho
00:32 <@preaction> shit, wtf was i thinking when i did that?
00:32 <+perlDreamer> you were strung out
00:33 <+perlDreamer> intoxicated with your new job at PB
00:33 <@preaction> instead of that split, it should be the two separate calls, but even then it's rather confusing
00:33 <@preaction> it might be the most straightforward to format it using strftime
00:34 <+perlDreamer> I think we should bonk all this methodization and just export constants for various formats
00:34 <+perlDreamer> EMAIL_FORMAT
00:34 <+perlDreamer> MYSQL_FORMAT
00:34 <+perlDreamer> etc
00:34 <@preaction> it doesn't mention anything about timezones at all, and thus nobody should expect it to auto-translate
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00:34 <@preaction> getDateTimeStart says it auto-translates, and toMysql says so too
00:35 <+perlDreamer> no, toMysql says it translates to UTC
00:35 <@preaction> yes, automatically
00:35 <@preaction> getDateTimeStart is magic about if it translates, and that's necessary for ease-of-use (getDateTimeStart should only be used immediately before displaying)
00:36 <@preaction> ... god... damn... it...
00:37 <@preaction> okay: No matter what, we want the date, time, or date/time stored in the database to be in UTC
00:37 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:37 <@preaction> so all those toMysql* should translate to UTC, meaning you must prepare for that
00:37 <+perlDreamer> right
00:38 <@preaction> so how much stuff is that going to break?
00:38 <+perlDreamer> what was your earlier argument against doing that?
00:38 <@preaction> because the Date.pm and Time.pm form elements can't do translation, as they only have part of the pichar
00:38 <@preaction> to doing ->toMysqlDate for the value of a Date form element will not work right
00:39 <@preaction> toDatabaseDate, toFormDate?
00:39 <@preaction> database date translates to UTC, form date translates to the user's time zone?
00:39 <@preaction> toUserDate
00:39 <+perlDreamer> toUserTzDate
00:40 <+perlDreamer> very clear method name
00:40 <+perlDreamer> toUserTzTime
00:40 <+perlDreamer> toUserTzDateTime
00:40 <@preaction> toDateInUserTimezone
00:40 <@preaction> abbreviations are bad according to WBP
00:40 <+perlDreamer> yeah, plus with vim's completion it won't cost too much to type
00:40 <@preaction> indeed
00:41 <@preaction> that and i'm starting to like long, descriptive, memorable method names
00:41 <@preaction> brevity is overrated sometimes
00:42 <+perlDreamer> but what format will these new methods put out?
00:42 <@preaction> the mysql format
00:42 <@preaction> in either UTC or the user's timezone
00:42 <@preaction> since the form elements use the mysql format now
00:43 <+perlDreamer> this also let's us grandfather in old code by adding in new methods
00:43 <@preaction> the only major caveat will be that Date and Time elements must be translated manually, but if there are plenty of warnings about it, they'll be fine
00:43 <@preaction> (and it was that way before, too)
00:45 <@preaction> i suppose now that we have a decent idea and consensus, i can't do anything because i've got other stuff i need to be working on (one of the main reasons why the calendar continues in the state it's in... the list of TODO at the bottom is long...)
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01:02 <@rizen> wahooo!!!
01:03 <@rizen> perlDreamer: i finally have test data for #1 from yesterday
01:03 <@rizen> you keep working on what you're working on
01:03 <@rizen> just wanted to let you know
01:03 <@rizen> i'm working on this problem now
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01:45 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
01:45 <+perlDreamer> gotta go
01:46 <+perlDreamer> got $dayJobbed
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02:00 < cap10morgan> I've inherited some SQL Reports that I need to port to v. 7. They use a ^SQL(); inside the query, but that seems to be failing in v. 7.
02:00 < cap10morgan> Is there a better way to do that?
02:01 <@rizen> subselects
02:01 <@rizen> mysql has native subselects now
02:01 <@rizen> use them
02:01 <@rizen> safer
02:01 <@rizen> faster
02:02 < cap10morgan> do they work after a "like"?
02:02 < cap10morgan> i've only used them for in (...)
02:02 <@rizen> read the mysql docs
02:02 <@rizen> i believe they work in any part of the query
02:02 < cap10morgan> ok, thanks
02:02 <@rizen> you just have to surround them in ()
02:03 <@rizen> select * from table where name like (select name from users where userId='xxx')
02:03 <@rizen> should work just fine i think
02:03 <@rizen> or rather
02:04 <@rizen> select * from table where name like (select concat(name,'%') from users where userId='xxx')
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02:10 < cap10morgan> rizen: cool, yeah, that works.
02:11 <@rizen> glad to hear it
02:11 <@rizen> much cleaner to read too than the sql macro
02:11 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I'll add the new methods to wG::DateTime, convert the Event over to using them and see if it fixes the bug
02:11 < cap10morgan> in the search function in the assets manager, is there a way to search for every asset of a certain class?
02:11 < cap10morgan> rizen: agreed :)
02:11 <@rizen> yes
02:11 <@preaction> perlDreamer: ok, thanks
02:12 <@rizen> oh wait
02:12 <@rizen> actually yes
02:12 <@rizen> just put a * in the search field
02:12 <@rizen> i believe that will do it
02:12 < cap10morgan> rizen: tried that
02:12 < cap10morgan> no luck :(
02:12 <@rizen> then i guess not
02:12 <@rizen> i've never tried that before
02:13 < cap10morgan> if i search for one i know is in there by name, it finds it. but * returns none
02:13 < cap10morgan> ok
02:13 <@rizen> and certainly didn't think of it when i built it
02:13 < cap10morgan> maybe i'll see how is it is to add and post as a contribution if i figure it out
02:13 <@rizen> what if you put double quotes in the field
02:13 <@rizen> ""
02:14 <@rizen> perlDreamer: i figured out what #1 was
02:14 <+perlDreamer> rizen: ?
02:14 <@rizen> it's a weird case of a multipart message
02:14 <@rizen> where the parts are nested inside another part that contains no content
02:14 <+perlDreamer> so it's mailer specific?
02:14 <@rizen> don't know
02:15 <@rizen> multipart/alternative
02:15 <@rizen> most mailers use multipart/mixed
02:15 <@rizen> from what i've seen
02:15 < cap10morgan> rizen: "" returns none also
02:15 <@rizen> sorry cap
02:15 <@rizen> guess you'll have to rfe it
02:15 <@rizen> i know you can do it through the search api
02:15 <@rizen> must be something in the UI that's stopping it form working
02:17 <+perlDreamer> preaction: just a little more data.  The time on the event display is fine, it's just the edit screen that's off
02:18 <@preaction> figures, you could either just fix the problem, or fix the problem for all future by making nicely named api methods ;)
02:18 <+perlDreamer> the latter sounds fine
02:18 <+perlDreamer> maybe we should make a test for it as well?
02:18 <@preaction> indeed, a suite of tests
02:19 <@preaction> it was part of my original desires, but fell by the wayside quickly
02:20 <+perlDreamer> time, time, time.  see what has become of thee?
02:20 <@preaction> might want to mark the toMysql* as deprecated
02:20 <@preaction> (though they never really existed, i'll have to warn frank about this)
02:20 <@rizen> nice, i just closed a bug from july
02:20 <@rizen> that's good
02:20 <+perlDreamer> 1 down
02:20 <+perlDreamer> 70 more to go :}
02:20 <@rizen> don't rain on my parade
02:21 <+perlDreamer> I live in Oregon.  Rainy parades are the norm
02:22 <@khenn> colin
02:22 <@khenn> let me send you my version of Date::Time
02:22 <@khenn> that way we don't step on eachother's toes
02:22 <@khenn> er
02:22 <@khenn> WebGUI::DateTime
02:22 <+perlDreamer> okay
02:23 <@khenn> I made it much easier to use
02:23 <@khenn> you can pass in a session object
02:23 <@preaction> colin will rely on that, the user timezone stuff needs a session object
02:23 <+perlDreamer> yeah, to get back to $session->user
02:24 <@preaction> but you'll have to test, if there's no session object those methods can't work
02:24 <@khenn> you can set it too
02:25 <@khenn> the only place the session object won't be passed in will be the calendar
02:25 <+perlDreamer> if we absolutely need it, then it should be in the constructor
02:25 <@khenn> I have it there
02:25 <@khenn> but because Doug uses it all over the place in the Calendar
02:25 <@khenn> and I didn't have time to update the Calendar
02:26 <@khenn> ...
02:26 <@khenn> I guess the calendar really needs to be updated
02:26 <+perlDreamer> Before checking anything in, I'll update both Event and Calendar with the new constructor semantics
02:26 <@khenn> shouldn't take long
02:26 <@khenn> k
02:26 <@khenn> you can then fix my version so $session is required rather than optional
02:27 <@preaction> perhaps use WBP to throw a die?
02:27 <+perlDreamer> sounds good
02:27 <+perlDreamer> croak
02:27 <@preaction> the only thing i worry about is if some idiot doesn't trap it and it propagates all the way up to mod_perl
02:28 <+perlDreamer> khenn: I got it
02:29 < cap10morgan> is there a better way to do sql reports when they're just pulling stuff from the webgui db? shouldn't those be macros?
02:29 < cap10morgan> to be more robust (since they'd use the api instead of hitting the db directly)?
02:30 <@preaction> or custom assets/wobjects
02:30 < cap10morgan> preaction: but the basic api over db thing is correct?
02:30 <@preaction> it is more correct, yes
02:30 <+perlDreamer> khenn: do we need to keep the session set'er if it's going to be mandatory in the constructor?
02:30 < cap10morgan> preaction: cool, thanks. that was my suspicion :)
02:31 <@preaction> we were having a conversation today about abolishing the individual wobject tables, so anything goes in the db schema
02:32 <@preaction> perlDreamer: be careful and make sure to test WebGUI::DateTime->from_epoch(); before you label it done (that will ensure that your constructor works)
02:32 <@preaction> or just disable that
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02:33 <+perlDreamer> do you mean as a class method?
02:33 <@rizen> cap, macros that use the api are definitely safer than anything that touches the db
02:33 <@rizen> the db changes dramatically from version to version
02:33 <@preaction> since new() accepts an integer and assumes it's an epoch time, ->from_epoch is unnecessary, but it still calls DateTime->from_epoch, which calls (Because of inheritence) WebGUI->DateTime->new
02:34 <@preaction> er.. WebGUI::DateTime->new
02:35 <@preaction> it still calls <- meaning WebGUI::DateTime->new(epoch time); calls DateTime->from_epoch
02:38 <+perlDreamer> if I shift $session from the arg list, will it should work from there like it used to?
02:38 <@preaction> it Should, except in the case of DateTime->from_epoch
02:38 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI::DateTime->from_epoch
02:39 <+perlDreamer> yeah, we'll lose that
02:39 <+perlDreamer> feature
02:39 <@preaction> um. look at the constructor again, DateTime->from_epoch is necessary
02:40 <@preaction> i don't know how to handle it, but it needs to be handled
02:41 <+perlDreamer> you're talking about this line:
02:41 <+perlDreamer> $self   = DateTime->from_epoch(epoch=>$_[0], time_zone=>"UTC", locale=>$locale);
02:41 <@preaction> yeah
02:41 <+perlDreamer> I'll start on that test suite after I finish hacking :)
02:41 <@preaction> i don't know what it'll do with session => $session, or something
02:46 <+perlDreamer> hmmm.  Can't require Readonly yet
02:47 < cap10morgan> thanks guys, I'm gonna convert these sql reports to marcos. have a good one, all.
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02:47 <+perlDreamer> marcos
02:47 <+perlDreamer> why not imeldas?
02:49 <+perlDreamer> it's a tough crowd tonight
02:49 <+perlDreamer> but don't worry folks, I'll be here all night
02:50 <@rizen> if i were in the room with you i'd be throwing tomatoes
02:50 <+perlDreamer> if you were in the room with me I'd eat them
02:50 <@rizen> i hate tomatos
02:50 <+perlDreamer> that Churchill quote just doesn't work in that context
02:51 <@rizen> that's why i'd throw them
03:01 <+perlDreamer> okay, now how do I come up with test data to validate this thing?
03:02 <@preaction> run some one-liners
03:02 <+perlDreamer> against DateTime.pm, not WebGUI::DateTime.pm
03:03 <@preaction> oh, right
03:03 <@preaction> or make it up out of your head
03:03 <+perlDreamer> lol
03:03 <@preaction> 2006-11-12 08:00:00 Central should be XXXX 09:00:00 Eastern, etc...
03:05 <+perlDreamer> preaction: do you want to give this the once over before I get into testing a bad API?
03:05 <@preaction> sure
03:05 <+perlDreamer> doug@pb.com?
03:05 <@preaction> yeah
03:08 <+perlDreamer> it's on its way
03:09 <+perlDreamer> I'll be back in a bit, have to cook dinner for the boys
03:09 -!- perlDreamer is now known as dinnerDreamer
03:47 <@khenn> I just wanted you all to know that I rule
03:47 <@khenn> RULE!
03:47 <@rizen> how's that?
03:47 <@khenn> Cause I'm doing some really cool shit with WebGUI
03:47 <@rizen> like?
03:48 <@khenn> http://frank1.plainblack.net:8084/home/update-my-profile
03:48 <@khenn> not all the tabs work
03:48 <@khenn> er
03:48 <@khenn> and you need to log in
03:48 <@khenn> defaults
03:49 <@khenn> and just if case you want to be a smartass, I couldn't use YUI for the tabs b/c of the 508 nonesense
03:49 <@khenn> or I would have
03:49 <@khenn> the actual thing isn't really that impressive anyway.  It's the code behind it!
03:50 <@rizen> how are you keeping track of the history
03:50 <@rizen> are those just changes made through this interface?
03:50 <@rizen> like if the admin makes a direct change to the profile
03:50 <@rizen> does that update the history
03:51 <@khenn> it updates the history
03:51 <@rizen> how?
03:51 <@khenn> the history table is being updated
03:51 <@khenn> but that's the default display
03:51 < Radix-wrk> I think the photo is wrong ;)
03:51 <@khenn> like this:
03:51 <@khenn> my $currentValue = $u->profileField($key);
03:51 <@khenn> my $newValue = $form->process($key,$field->get("fieldType"));
03:52 <@khenn> if ($newValue ne $currentValue)
03:52 <@rizen> there is no history table for the profile
03:52 <@khenn> $self->logAction($u->userId, sprintf($i18n->echo("%s updated to $newValue"),$label));
03:52 <@khenn> yeah, it's a custom table
03:52 <@rizen> ok, so how is it that the user manager screen will make additions to the history
03:52 <@khenn> changes through WebGUI's User Management thing won't catch
03:52 <@rizen> that's what i asked before
03:53 <@rizen> ok, that makes sense
03:53 <@khenn> oh, it's a tool for admins to track what the users change
03:53 <@khenn> the regular profile tool is disabled
03:53 <@rizen> but the regular user manager isn't
03:53 <@rizen> you can't
03:53 <@khenn> no the tool that users use
03:53 <@khenn> not managers
03:53 <@rizen> yeah i get it
03:54 <@preaction> holy crap, i just noticed
03:54 <@preaction> that does look a lot like you, frank
03:54 <@khenn> ha
03:54 <@khenn> yeah right
03:54 <@preaction> a lot moreso than the Rockstar Elvis we had on pb.com awhile back
03:54 <@khenn> Doug thinks we should add user profile history to WebGUI
03:54 <@preaction> http://www.plainblack.com/uploads/JG/TX/JGTX4AtYjGmpXC5gpxRD2g/rockstar_banner.jpg
03:55 <@preaction> says whom?
03:55 <@preaction> i said the global history thingy
03:55 <@khenn> yeah
03:55 <@khenn> I know
03:55 <@preaction> basically a log of everything important that happens
03:55 <@khenn> each profile shows individual history
03:55 <@preaction> well, that might be a config option
03:55 <@khenn> lots of stuff is logged in WebGUI already
03:56 <@preaction> how do i see it?
03:57 <@khenn> select * from assetHistory;
03:57 <@preaction> so no UI for it
03:57 <@khenn> right
03:57 <@khenn> well it doesn't log profile updates either
03:57 <@preaction> if there were a UI for it, admins would like it
03:58 <@khenn> just asset stuff
03:58 <@preaction> an overview of what their users have been doing
03:58 <@khenn> ah
03:58 <@preaction> i'm also hashing out a design for a sort of Meta wobject, that can do "recent changes" as well as replace those SQLReports that try to mimic assets
03:59 <@preaction> like SQLReports for selecting certain threads from a CS
04:00 <@preaction> so you tell this wobject that I want all Threads underneath this CS that haven't had a reply in a month ordered by time created descending, and it will show them
04:01 <@preaction> or I want all Articles under root ordered by when they were last updated ascending, limit of 10
04:26 <+dinnerDreamer> thanks for the edits, preaction
04:26 <+dinnerDreamer> once we can add Readonly to the core, we'll protect those constants
04:26 -!- dinnerDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
04:39 <@snapcount> Readonly ++
05:11 -!- royRogers [n=royRoger@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
05:12 < royRogers> perlDreamer: can you hear me?
05:12 < royRogers> perlDreamer: come in over
05:12 < royRogers> can anybody hear me?
05:12 < royRogers> hello... McFLYY
05:13 < royRogers> can I make the WebGUI work with Safari this is a bug
05:13 < royRogers> I love science to the maximum
05:14 <@snapcount> whoa
05:14 <@snapcount> this thing actually works
05:14 <@snapcount> sweeeeeeeeet
05:22 -!- royRogers [n=royRoger@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit []
05:29 <@preaction> is royRogers like duckDodgers?
05:32 <+perlDreamer> I'm back now, Roy
05:32 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: what are you up to?
05:32 <@snapcount> oh nothing
05:33 <@snapcount> just adding the ability for people to chat with us directly from wg.org
05:33 <+perlDreamer> huh?
05:33 <+perlDreamer> no way!
05:33 <@snapcount> without installing anything
05:33 <@snapcount> or configuring anything
05:33 <+perlDreamer> do you need a beta tester?
05:33 <+perlDreamer> I have a semi-technical literate person sitting next to me
05:33 <@snapcount> hehe
05:33 <@snapcount> not quite yet
05:34 <@snapcount> I'm still seeing what it can do
05:34 <@snapcount> learning  how to use it
05:34 <@snapcount> it's a java applet
05:34 <+perlDreamer> Any leakable rumors about the WUC dates?
05:34 <+perlDreamer> month
05:34 <+perlDreamer> week
05:34 <+perlDreamer> year?
05:34 <@snapcount> fall
05:34 <@snapcount> =)
05:35 <@snapcount> that's all I know really
05:35 <+perlDreamer> that's a good start
05:35 <+perlDreamer> aren't you the WUCmeister this year?
05:35 <@snapcount> I think October but I might be wrong
05:35 <+perlDreamer> or just coordinating sessions?
05:35 <@snapcount> you mean organizing the event?
05:35 <+perlDreamer> yeah
05:35 <@snapcount> that's all Vrby
05:35 <@snapcount> he's operations
05:36 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
05:36 <@snapcount> I'll probably have a few opportunities to put everyone to sleep though
05:37 <@rizen> wuc 2007: madison, 2nd week of october
05:37 <+perlDreamer> cool
05:38 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm... Might be able to make that one.
05:38 <+perlDreamer> that will help us budget
05:38 <+perlDreamer> we'll book when the dates are announced
05:40 <+perlDreamer> btw, did knowmad make a dev posting saying that his js cookie bug isn't a bug anymore?
05:40 <@rizen> yes
05:40 <+perlDreamer> sounds like grounds for a bug closure
05:41 <@rizen> indeed
05:41 <@rizen> want me to do it
05:41 <@rizen> or are you there already
05:41 <+perlDreamer> please do, he's not overly fond of me closing his bugs
05:41 <@rizen> closed
05:41 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/sqlreport---incompatibilities-with-htmltemplateexpr#U3hPwOa1HUNqYjN4wbIG1g
05:43 <@rizen> after we get all these bugs fixed
05:43 <@rizen> we need to go through and remove all the dots from templates
05:43 <@rizen> as part of 7.4
05:43 <@rizen> roy are you here?
05:44 <@rizen> ping snapcount
05:44 <@snapcount> yes
05:44 <+perlDreamer> do you want to reimport them or modify them inplace?
05:45  * snapcount runs and hides
05:45 <@rizen> i'm putting out an executive order
05:45 <@snapcount> uh oh
05:45 <@rizen> and you're the guy that's going to implement it for me
05:45 <@rizen> we DO NOT FORK for 7.4 dev even after the stable release
05:45 <@rizen> until the bug list is completely clean
05:45 <@rizen> no more waiting
05:46 <@snapcount> no more waiting?
05:46 <@rizen> that way we can go into 7.4 dev with a clean slate
05:46 <@snapcount> you mean to fix them all
05:46 <@rizen> yup
05:46 <@snapcount> you are my hero
05:46 <@snapcount> I will be more than happy to implement that
05:46 <+perlDreamer> could we have a list of executive orders on the wiki that is semi-protected?
05:46 <+perlDreamer> that has things like:
05:47 <@rizen> please make that announcement when you release 7.3.x (stable)
05:47 <+perlDreamer> no more new dots
05:47 <+perlDreamer> all API bugs should have tests
05:47 <@snapcount> I should be enforcing stuff like that
05:47 <@rizen> that should go into best practices
05:47 <@rizen> that too
05:47 <@snapcount> actually everyone should
05:47 < perlm> For a data form is there a default value for NOW() ?  Or can I just use now()?
05:47 <@snapcount> if you see a commit without docs, dots in tmpl vars
05:47 <@snapcount> call them on it
05:47 <@snapcount> no matter who it is
05:47 <@rizen> the best practices document in the wiki is the list of executive orders
05:47 <@snapcount> they can yell at me if they get pissed at you
05:48 <@snapcount> tell them that
05:48 <@preaction> snapcount: better get some earplugs
05:48 <@snapcount> I could care less
05:48 <@snapcount> =)
05:48 <@preaction> you will when i start digging up dirt on your ex-wife
05:48 <@rizen> pd: we're going to modify in place
05:48 <@rizen> the templates
05:48 <+perlDreamer> cool
05:48 <@rizen> we have to
05:48 <@rizen> cuz we have to regex everybody's custom templates
05:48 <@snapcount> the only person that can get away with it is rizen and that's only if we complain and he reminds us that he's the GodFather
05:49 <@rizen> even i can't get away with it
05:49 <@rizen> don't let me
05:49 <+perlDreamer> we both did last night :(
05:49 <@snapcount> (I wanted you to say that)
05:49 <@snapcount> hehe
05:49 <@snapcount> so there you go
05:49 <@rizen> let me get away with what last night?
05:49 <+perlDreamer> dirty low-down no good non-template documenting hackoids
05:49 <+perlDreamer> we committed with broken template docs
05:49 <+perlDreamer> WikiPage and WikiMaster
05:50 <+perlDreamer> they're the ones I fixed this morning
05:50 <@rizen> broken as in missing info?
05:50 <@rizen> cuz i updated for the new stuff i added
05:50 <+perlDreamer> there was a typo in your tag, so it didn't resolve
05:50 <+perlDreamer> ditto with mine
05:50 <@snapcount> you know another good idea would be to require that people run at least the test suite for the code they are checking in, if it has one
05:50 <@snapcount> takes 20 seconds tops
05:50 <@rizen> that's pretty hard to enforce though
05:51 <@snapcount> well, if the test fails
05:51 <@rizen> cuz how are you going to know if they did it or not
05:51 <@snapcount> (which is how I found the tmpl docs were broke)
05:51 <@rizen> yeah, but you won't know all the time it doesn't fail
05:51 <+perlDreamer> it can be enforced as a pre-checkin hook, but I can guess at the server load
05:51 <+perlDreamer> inside SVN
05:51 <@snapcount> ok
05:51 <@snapcount> I guess we have to trust people a little bit =)
05:51  * snapcount puts the red tape down
05:53 < perlm> what crap.  On the PB poll, Installiation/Upgrade is winning, but the last time I installed or upgrade WG it was like butta.
05:54 < PedersenMJ> How did you do it, perlm?
05:54 < PedersenMJ> source, or wre?
05:54 < perlm> source
05:54 < perlm> takes me about 15 minutes with a fresh perl install and a good cpan mirror handy.
05:55 < perlm> and upgrades are so fast and easy they aren't worth mentioning.
05:55 < PedersenMJ> As did I. Saying it was like butta, I wouldn't do. I In order to do it, I had to find and download extra packages, and turn them into proper Debian packages, since I wanted them to be managed by dpkg/aptitude.
05:55 -!- wgGuest69 [n=wgGuest6@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
05:56 -!- wgGuest69 [n=wgGuest6@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
05:56 -!- wgGuest03 [n=wgGuest0@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
05:57 < wgGuest03> ping
05:57 <+perlDreamer> greeting, earthling
05:57 < PedersenMJ> pong
05:57 < wgGuest03> nice
05:57 <@rizen> is this the web interface?
05:57 < wgGuest03> so the random nick is working
05:57 < wgGuest03> yeah
05:57 <@rizen> nice
05:57 < wgGuest03> I wanted to get fancy with it
05:57 < wgGuest03> but in order to let peeps select a nick, etc
05:57 < wgGuest03> I have to use JS
05:57 < wgGuest03> which I sucketh at
05:58 <+perlDreamer> Chicago is UTC-6?
05:58 < wgGuest03> I thought I could do it a different way, but the html has to be in the same folder as the java files
05:58 <@preaction> yes
05:58 < wgGuest03> so it's all gotta go in a zip archive
05:58 < PedersenMJ> yes, Chicago is UTC=6
05:58 < wgGuest03> so I can't use cool stuff like FormParam macro, etc
05:59 <+perlDreamer> preaction, I'm 30 minutes away from committing with test on DateTime
05:59 <@preaction> sweet
05:59 < wgGuest03> can someone ident this user please
05:59 <@snapcount> heh
06:00 <@preaction> ident? you'd have to register it :p
06:00 <@snapcount> forgot I can do it with this window
06:00 <@snapcount> doh!
06:00 <+perlDreamer> n=wgGuest0@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com
06:00 <@snapcount> there we go
06:00 <+perlDreamer> /ident wgGuest03
06:00 <+perlDreamer> hm
06:00 <@preaction> oh, /whois
06:00 <@snapcount> now I shall put it on a demo server and make sure it still gives my home ip
06:00 <+perlDreamer> Nick: wgGuest03
06:00 <+perlDreamer> Username: n=wgGuest0@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com
06:00 <+perlDreamer> Real name: WebGUI User
06:00 <+perlDreamer> Server: irc.freenode.net (http://freenode.net/)
06:00 <+perlDreamer> Currently on: #webgui 
06:00 <@snapcount> and not the demo servers
06:00 <+perlDreamer> and shall you name if fluffy and give it lots of hugs?
06:01 <@snapcount> then I can look at configuration options
06:01 <@snapcount> perhaps
06:01 -!- wgGuest03 [n=wgGuest0@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
06:02 -!- wgGuest69 [n=wgGuest6@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
06:02 < perlm> Is this an asset that will allow users to join the IRC?
06:02 < PedersenMJ> Same ip address, snap.
06:02 <@snapcount> sweeeeeet
06:03 <@snapcount> as Borat would say, "Verry nice"
06:03 < wgGuest69> Chatting from ze demo
06:03 < wgGuest69> zip archive rules
06:03 < wgGuest69> lada dada da
06:03 < wgGuest69> multi user test time
06:03 < wgGuest69> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169176980_945/uploads/jV/u8/jVu8wv-Seo7q9qHK2fWuuw/SimpleApplet.html
06:03 <@preaction> perhaps post it as a contribution? "IRC from your WebGUI"
06:04 <+perlDreamer> how did you get content back from the zip archive?
06:04 <@snapcount> by using it...
06:04 <@snapcount> =)
06:04 -!- wgGuest21 [n=wgGuest2@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
06:04 <@snapcount> what do you mean?
06:04 <+perlDreamer> I thought we couldn't upload HTML, Js, cgi, php, ice tea or the like
06:04 < wgGuest21> ooh, this is the good one. i've always liked this java client
06:05 <@snapcount> hey
06:05 < wgGuest21> WHOIS me!
06:05 <@snapcount> that's a good question
06:05 <@snapcount> why did it allow this html file in zip archive
06:05 <@snapcount> I thought I broke that
06:05 <+perlDreamer> yeah!??
06:05 -!- wgGuest21 is now known as preaction-java
06:05 <@snapcount> it definitely fixed the phishing bug
06:05 <@snapcount> ohhhhhhh
06:05 <@snapcount> I know why it works
06:05 <@snapcount> I only changed AddFileFromFormPost
06:06 <@snapcount> and this uses the AddFileFromFilesystem
06:06 <+perlDreamer> so it isn't borken
06:06 <@snapcount> form post only sees a zip file
06:06 <@snapcount> but then zip archive uses the other method
06:06 <@snapcount> after uncompressing
06:06 -!- preaction-java [n=wgGuest2@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
06:07 <@snapcount> I can lock down the allowed commands, etc
06:07 <@snapcount> to make sure they can only use our channel
06:07 <@snapcount> and we're not a free irc gateway provider
06:07 <@preaction> eh, that's not necessary really
06:07 <@preaction> it's not a gateway, it's a client
06:07 <@preaction> it's running on their system
06:07 <+perlDreamer> freenode could be DoS'ed with it, though
06:07 <+perlDreamer> programmatically created clients
06:08 <@snapcount> yeah... I guess we loose at most the bandwidth to load the applet
06:08 <@preaction> the system would run out of resources before freenode would even hiccup
06:08 <@preaction> far easier ways to DoS
06:08 <@snapcount> I had the hiccups once
06:09 <@snapcount> so I'm thinking I should make the html specify a specific size so this is a little pop up screen
06:09 <@snapcount> when people click a button on wg.org
06:09 <@snapcount> thoughts?
06:09 <@preaction> pop-up window sounds good
06:09 <@snapcount> cuz I can't put it inline unless I use the http proxy to do it
06:09 <@snapcount> but that might be cool too
06:10 <@preaction> well, then if they navigate away they lose connection
06:10 <@snapcount> then we can put some instructions around it
06:10 <@snapcount> good point
06:10 < perlm> I just set a data form entry to date and time and not only does it default to the current timestamp, but some wicked-arsed timestamp gui pops ups.  teh r0xorz
06:10 <@snapcount> yeah perm: wg is of the hizzle for shizzle
06:10 <@snapcount> as they say in the LBC
06:10 <@snapcount> and I can't spell at all
06:11 <@snapcount> we can set the colors for this, add a bg image, and even sounds for events, etc
06:11 <@snapcount> I'm gonna pimp this thing to look like gooey
06:12 < perlm> If I try to add a bit about the data form to the wiki and totally screw it up, no one will get pissed right?
06:12 <@snapcount> actually I'll try and then get Steve to help me make it look the way I meant instead of a steaming pile
06:12 <@snapcount> no, if they get pissed, tell them to edit it and fix it
06:12 <@snapcount> that's the idea of the wiki
06:12 <@snapcount> collaborative documentation
06:12 <@snapcount> majority rule kinda thing
06:12 <+perlDreamer> Gooey looks kind of like a steaming purple pile
06:13 <@snapcount> oh no you didn't
06:13 < perlm> cool, thanks
06:13  * snapcount bobs his head and snaps his fingers
06:13 <@snapcount> np perlm
06:14 <+perlDreamer> I have a problem guys
06:14 <+perlDreamer> with the DateTime test
06:15 <+perlDreamer> I want to test that setting a user's time zone works correctly
06:15 <+perlDreamer> but they shift with daylight savings time
06:15 <+perlDreamer> so the test will fail at certain times of the year
06:15 <+perlDreamer> any thoughts?
06:16 < PedersenMJ> Modify the test.
06:17 -!- snapcount_ [n=royjohns@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
06:17 < snapcount_> hmm
06:17 < PedersenMJ> You can tell from the local system what the current date/time/dst status is. Have the test smart enough to use that information.
06:18 <@preaction> use a timezone that doesn't have DST
06:19 <@preaction> and/or there's a DateTime method that will return true if DST is on
06:19 <+perlDreamer> this one doesn't have DST
06:19 <+perlDreamer> America/Hermosillo
06:19 <+perlDreamer> UTC-7
06:20 < snapcount_> crap... what if someone comes on channel from the web irc and is an ass
06:20 < snapcount_> we can't kick them out
06:20 <@preaction> we ban their hostmask
06:20 < snapcount_> wait
06:20 < snapcount_> yes
06:20 < snapcount_> true dat
06:20 <@preaction> this java IRC client is just like any other client
06:20 < snapcount_> this will work
06:20 <@preaction> put your fears to rest
06:20 < snapcount_> I have to think about this stuff
06:20 < snapcount_> so it's not a disaster
06:21 <@preaction> it's a good idea, we're smart people, we can make it work
06:21 < snapcount_> I don't doubt that... I just like to be perfect the first time
06:21 <@preaction> impossible
06:22 < snapcount_> oh preaction 
06:22 < snapcount_> young Jedi
06:22 <@preaction> perfection is unattainable, as everything is temporal :p
06:22 < snapcount_> I hope rizen is watching mythbusters right now
06:22 <@preaction> eventually someone will make a better java IRC client, and your solution won't be perfect anymore
06:22 <@preaction> he doesn't do well with philosophical debates?
06:23 < snapcount_> sure he does, his philosophy however is not compatible with debates
06:23 <@preaction> that's okay, i'm right, and i'm okay with people not realizing that
06:23 < snapcount_> his philosophy is, "shutup"
06:23 <@preaction> s/right/always right/
06:23 < snapcount_> and listent
06:23 < snapcount_> heh
06:24 < PedersenMJ> Question: I'm almost positive there's an html tag that fits what I'm looking to do, but can't remember it. When setting up a quotation, I've got <q> (to quote), but can't remember how to specify the origin of the quote.
06:24 <@rizen> my name was typed and now i have a blinking screen
06:24 <@rizen> listen here fuckers
06:24 < PedersenMJ> Like: <q>I'm confused</q><qmaker>Me</qmaker>
06:25 <@rizen> <blockquote>
06:25 <@rizen> indents
06:25 < snapcount_> <pre>
06:25 < snapcount_> ?
06:25 <@preaction> <cite>?
06:25 <@rizen> <blink>
06:25 <@rizen> hehe
06:25 <@preaction> i think it's <cite>
06:25 < snapcount_> <royIsYurDaddy
06:25 < snapcount_> >
06:25 < snapcount_> yeah blink
06:25 < snapcount_> that's the one
06:25 < PedersenMJ> cite. That's it. Couldn't remember it for the life of me.
06:25 < snapcount_> use it EVERYWHERE
06:25 < snapcount_> on your site
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Stupid of me to forget, but anyway.
06:26 <@preaction> and be sure to have plenty of animated jifs
06:26  * PedersenMJ adds many blink tags to the latest theme to be uploaded for webgui then.
06:26 < snapcount_> doh
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Yes, I'm putting in quotations from the success stories in this theme. This one is gonna come out *nice*.
06:27 < snapcount_> rock on
06:27 <@rizen> what is that acronym
06:27 <@rizen> tmtf
06:27 <@rizen> or something
06:27 <@rizen> tmrfe
06:27 <@preaction> the man responsible for everything
06:27 < snapcount_> can you unserialize that please
06:27 <@rizen> tmrfe then
06:27 <@rizen> ok
06:27 < snapcount_> thank you
06:28 <@rizen> so now when someone types that
06:28 <+perlDreamer> boo, DateTime::TimeZone
06:28 <@rizen> i'll get an alert
06:28 <@rizen> hehe
06:28 <@preaction> used by Anthony Daniels to describe George Lucas
06:28 <@preaction> perlDreamer: you don't have to tell me twice :p
06:28 <+perlDreamer> You should have overloaded stringification, but oh no!
06:28 <@rizen> ok, time to watch some tv
06:28 <@rizen> but should it be modern marvels
06:28 < snapcount_> you can overload operators in Perl??
06:28 <+perlDreamer> preaction, this one's not about you, it's about Mr. Rolsky
06:29 <@rizen> or the sopranos
06:29 <+perlDreamer> Oh yeah, snapcount
06:29 < snapcount_> really?
06:29 < snapcount_> nice
06:29 <+perlDreamer> oh yes
06:29 < snapcount_> I thought that was for C++ goodness only
06:29 <+perlDreamer> no
06:29 <+perlDreamer> perl6 will teach you the true understanding of operator overloading
06:29 <+perlDreamer> but you can do it in P5 as well
06:29 < snapcount_> I understand it quite well
06:30 < snapcount_> when used appropriately it rules
06:30 < snapcount_> just didn't know Perl was that cool
06:30 <@preaction> Perl is that cool AND MORE!
06:30 < snapcount_> date manipulation is a good place for overloading
06:30 < snapcount_> subtracting dates to get days, etc
06:30 <+perlDreamer> I'm telling your girlfriend you said that
06:30 < snapcount_> number of days rather
06:30 < snapcount_> nice
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06:35 < snapcount_> ok
06:35 <+perlDreamer> que pasa?
06:35 < snapcount_> so what's the html params to make the browser window a certain size
06:36 < snapcount_> width height
06:36 < snapcount_> ?
06:36 < snapcount_> in the head tags
06:36 < snapcount_> body?
06:36 <+perlDreamer> I don't know.
06:36 < snapcount_> ah come on
06:36 <+perlDreamer> no, really
06:36 < snapcount_> someone else look it up so I don't have to
06:36 <+perlDreamer> I'm not a pop-up kind of guy
06:36 <+perlDreamer> preaction: what was the test I need to run before committing the DateTime change?
06:37 <@preaction> make sure that WebGUI::DateTime->new(time) still works right
06:37 < snapcount_> perlDreamer: do you think pop up is the way to go for the wg.org irc client?
06:37 <@preaction> with and/or without a session
06:37 <+perlDreamer> session is now mandatory
06:37 <+perlDreamer> no session, no object
06:38 <+perlDreamer> you can't tell one date time from another without a session
06:38 <@preaction> perlDreamer: and that's why you need to test this. something bad is probably going to happen because of that
06:38 <+perlDreamer> clue me in, are we talking core code, custom code or what?
06:38 <@preaction> because the call to DateTime->from_epoch calls WebGUI::DateTime->new, and doesn't send a $session
06:39 <@preaction> snapcount_: you specify the height/width in the javascript window.open
06:39 <@preaction> target="_new" is deprecated, but to be honest, if the user wants to pop up, they will, i guess
06:39 < snapcount_> I was going to have this open from an anchor tag w/o using js
06:39 < snapcount_> oh
06:39 < snapcount_> it's deprecated?
06:39 < snapcount_> _new
06:40 <@preaction> i mean, it works, but it shouldn't
06:40 <@preaction> no, the entire target="" property
06:40 < snapcount_> replaced by??
06:40 <@preaction> nothing
06:40 < snapcount_> all links open inline now
06:40 <@preaction> according to HTML 4.01 and XHTML 2.0 or whatever the latest working drafts are
06:41 <@preaction> frames are just bad ideas anyway, iframes are probably getting deprecated to, and there's some new idea the w3c is kicking around to replace them
06:41 < snapcount_> so instead <a href='#' onclick='window.open("/url/to/cool");">Image for Launching Chat</a>
06:42 <+perlDreamer> preaction: if this works
06:42 <+perlDreamer> my $epochDt = WebGUI::DateTime->new($session, "1169141075");
06:42 <+perlDreamer> you're happy?
06:42 <@preaction> perlDreamer: indeed
06:42 <+perlDreamer> cool, it does
06:42 <@preaction> word
06:42 <+perlDreamer> sometime I'd like to understand why calling the parent will invoke the child's constructor
06:42 <@preaction> snapcount_: put a "return false;" after window.open();, so that the href="#" doesn't happen
06:43 <@preaction> perlDreamer: probably because DateTime->from_epoch calls $class->new
06:43 <@preaction> instead of DateTime->new
06:43 < snapcount_> ahh yes
06:43 < snapcount_> I remember that trick
06:43 <+perlDreamer> but if it did that, this should fail
06:43 <+perlDreamer> and it doesn't
06:43 < snapcount_> what about sizing the browser window?
06:43 <@preaction> perlDreamer: i might be totally off my rocker
06:44 < snapcount_> window.height='blah';
06:44 <@preaction> snapcount_: the second argument is a bunch of name=value pairs iirc
06:44 <+perlDreamer> I've seen your code, Doug, I doubt it
06:44 < snapcount_> oh I see
06:44 <@preaction> two of which are "height" and "width"
06:44 < snapcount_> so it's probably 18 commas, height, 3 commas, width
06:44 <@preaction> perlDreamer: i kept running into a problem where the arguments would be all messed up, but it might've been cured when i stopped using a hashref
06:44 <@rizen> window.open("/path/to.html","windowName", "width=100,height=300");
06:45 < snapcount_> gracias hombre
06:45 <@preaction> snapcount_: no, window.open("url","height=300,width=100")
06:45 <@preaction> holycrapbeans
06:45 < snapcount_> ok... I gotta go do some homework... I'll be back soon
06:46 <@preaction> perlDreamer: there's some commented-out debug code from that little issue, the "args to webgui::datetime" crap
06:46 <+perlDreamer> yes, I see it
06:46 <@preaction> so if it's not borked, it should be fine
06:46 <+perlDreamer> maybe it works differently because I removed $session from @_ via shift?
06:48 <@preaction> maybe, but probably not, i'm probably mistaken about there being a second call to DateTime->new or something, who knows
06:49 <+perlDreamer> preaction, I need to convert this:
06:49 <+perlDreamer>  WebGUI::DateTime->from_epoch(epoch => time(), time_zone => $session->user->profileField("timeZone"))->toMysql;
06:49 <+perlDreamer> to:
06:49 <+perlDreamer>  WebGUI::DateTime->new(epoch => time(), time_zone => $session->user->profileField("timeZone"))->toMysql;
06:50 <+perlDreamer> ?
06:50 <@preaction> where is that? why am i doing that?
06:50 <+perlDreamer> it's in the Calendar code
06:51 <+perlDreamer> lines 889, 1462
06:51 <+perlDreamer> 889 is getting now for defaultDate
06:51 <+perlDreamer> same thing in www_ical
06:52 <@preaction> that's legacy, use this: WebGUI::DateTime->new($session,time)->toUserTimeZone
06:52 <+perlDreamer> roger
06:52 <@preaction> all the code in Calendar is assuming that toMysql does not translate to UTC, which it now does
06:52 <@preaction> it should never be using toMysql anymore anyway
06:53 <@preaction> and in this case, $params->{start} is user input (or at least treated as such)
06:54 <@preaction> i think getEventsIn does the translation... which is probably counter-intuitive
06:54 <@preaction> yes, it expects that startDate and endDate are in the user's time zone
06:54 <@preaction> (and this is probably how timezones get so messed up, rofl)
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06:55 <+perlDreamer> yeah
06:55 <@preaction> oh god, the magic in getEventsIn to handle all-day events, rofl
06:56 <+perlDreamer> well, my changes pass -wc, time to fire it up
06:57 <+perlDreamer> it works
06:57 <+perlDreamer> time is still wrong, but I only translated the method calls
06:57 <+perlDreamer> haven't actually fixed anything yet
07:00 < PedersenMJ> Okay, time to ask for one more style opinion from people, so that I can finish up a navigation (maybe two), and publish this. The theme in progress is: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2204
07:01 < Radix-wrk> shoot
07:01 < PedersenMJ> There's a navigation menu (welcome, bio, discography). I'm thinking that *that* menu should be a navigation, from the root, depth 1. And underneath the picture (which is right underneath that menu) I should put another navigation, which includes self and siblings.
07:02 < PedersenMJ> What do you guys think?
07:03 <@preaction> sounds good to me
07:03 < Radix-wrk> another nav sounds fine
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I have to construct both navs, and fix the placement of the loginbox. After that, write up some docs (since there's one snippet, and one whole folder, that *must* be customized on a per site basis).
07:05 < PedersenMJ> And test some more of the layouts. I'm not getting this one done tonight, I don't think.
07:08 <+perlDreamer> preaction: ping
07:09 <@preaction> yo
07:09 <+perlDreamer> I'm having a little problem
07:09 <+perlDreamer> have a gander at Asset::Event::www_edit
07:09 <+perlDreamer> formEndDate and formEndTime
07:09 <+perlDreamer> when I change the calls for those from 
07:10 <+perlDreamer> defaultValue    => $default_start->toMysqlDate,
07:10 <+perlDreamer> to
07:10 <+perlDreamer> defaultValue   => $default_start->toUserTimeZoneDate
07:10 <+perlDreamer> then I get a hard error
07:10 <+perlDreamer> it says that it can't call the user method on an undefined value
07:10 <+perlDreamer> on line 201 in DateTime.pm
07:10 <@preaction> because you didn't pass a session
07:10 <+perlDreamer> I did
07:11 <+perlDreamer> the formStartDate and formStartTime above work fine
07:11 <@preaction> ohhh
07:11 <+perlDreamer> it's like $default_start isn't a WebGUI::DateTime anymore
07:11 <@preaction> because we performed some math on it? wtf?
07:12 <+perlDreamer> that's what I'm wondering
07:12 <+perlDreamer> time for $session->errorHandler
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07:15 <+perlDreamer> do you want me to commit what I have so you can check it?
07:15 <@preaction> if you want, sure
07:17 <+perlDreamer> committed
07:17 <+perlDreamer> rev 3594
07:18 < PedersenMJ> Question for the template masters: I want to know if the current url being accessed starts with a given url. For instance, something like this (except I know this is invalid syntax, or at least think it is): <tmp_if currentPage.startsWith("http://localhost/home")>output this</tmpl_if>
07:19 < PedersenMJ> Anyway to do this?
07:19 <+perlDreamer> why?
07:19 <@preaction> no, not with H::T
07:19 <+perlDreamer> you're looking at a Navigation template?
07:19 <+perlDreamer> there may be a different var that will tell you what you want
07:19 <+perlDreamer> like currentPage.isParent
07:19 <+perlDreamer> currentPage.isAncestor
07:19 <+perlDreamer> etc
07:20 < PedersenMJ> Same theme: I want to highlight a specific tab at the top menu, and highlight that tab.... Aha! currentPage.isAncestor! That should do it.
07:20 <+perlDreamer> That nav template is very powerful
07:20 < PedersenMJ> Now I really need to learn how to use that variable properly in the template. And, believe it or not, I'm trying to get the info from the docs before harassing people here.
07:21 <+perlDreamer> If you have suggestions for improving the docs, please share them
07:21 <+perlDreamer> I wrote a good chunk of them
07:21 <+perlDreamer> and I know they need help :)
07:21 <@preaction> they make the most out of a truly strange template :p
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Nope, I don't have suggestions, not yet.
07:22 < PedersenMJ> Once I have a better idea of what questions I'm even trying to ask, then I can better suggest how to update docs.
07:24 <@preaction> perlDreamer: now that IS interesting... trying to figure out wtf
07:25 <+perlDreamer> it is missing a session var
07:25 <+perlDreamer> I can't figure out how
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Okay, now I see somewhat how those docs tie together to the variables. perlDreamer: Something that isn't obvious, and I don't know how to make it obvious, regardless of the docs (and it may be that they're there, and I haven't read them yet): Each type of template has its own set of variables in addition to the session vars, etc. So, when working on a nav template, it's important to know the variables for the nav template. And, until now, I didn't ma
07:26 <+perlDreamer> you got cut off
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Dang. Where did it cut out?
07:26 <+perlDreamer> " And, until now, I didn't ma"
07:27 <@preaction> perlDreamer: it gets set to undef, it's still a WebGUI::DateTime
07:27 < PedersenMJ> And, until now, I didn't make that connection.
07:27 <+perlDreamer> preaction: that is weird
07:29 <@preaction> ... and it's the fucking math that does it
07:29 <@preaction> BUT WHY?
07:30 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, I'm off to bed. 7 items on my todo list (most of them minor, I think), and then I can publish this theme. Sometime this weekend, hopefully.
07:30 <@preaction> .. and I knew that putting a session object in there was a bad idea
07:30 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, I'm not sure I followed your comment.  Can we pick it up again tomorrow?
07:31 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I wish there was a way around it
07:31 <@preaction> there is, but i don't like it
07:31 <+perlDreamer> globals?
07:31 <@preaction> use AUTOLOAD
07:31 <+perlDreamer> ew
07:31 <@preaction> or... create a wrapper for every DateTime.pm method
07:31 <+perlDreamer> double ew
07:31 <+perlDreamer> not possible
07:31 <@preaction> yeah...
07:32 <+perlDreamer> you'd have to include all the subclasses
07:32 <+perlDreamer> it wouldn't work
07:32 < PedersenMJ> Absolutely! Right now, I'm in a poor communication mode. My ideas don't come out well. Remind me tomorrow about the docs, and I'll do my best to explain better.
07:33 < PedersenMJ> g'night. Will chat manana.
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07:33 <@preaction> son of a bitch
07:34 <+perlDreamer> you got it?
07:34 <+perlDreamer> it has something to do with getDateTimeEnd
07:34 <+perlDreamer> I had no problems at all with getDateTimeStart
07:35 <@preaction> no, it's not solvable
07:38 <+perlDreamer> what is going on?
07:40 <@preaction> black-box problem, i don't know why the session is getting unset
07:40 <@preaction> and it's far too late for me to try to fix it
07:41 <+perlDreamer> okay
07:41 <@preaction> and they're going to kill me for spending my time on this when i should be working Alumni project... god damn it
07:41 <+perlDreamer> more hacking tomorrow?
07:41 <@preaction> indeed
07:41 <+perlDreamer> I have some ideas, I'll try them out and see what I can ge
07:42 <@preaction> but i'm fearing that it might be impossible to proceed and reversion only way to go
07:42 <@preaction> good luck
07:42 <+perlDreamer> thanks
07:42  * preaction & emoness with emo chick
07:49 <+perlDreamer> we need to subclass clone
07:55 <+perlDreamer> nope
07:55 <@rizen> pd i wanted tell you 2 things
07:56 <+perlDreamer> okay
07:56 <@rizen> a) thanks for helping out with all the big fixing
07:56 <@rizen> b) i have to do accounting tommorrow
07:56 <@rizen> so i won't be able to do any bug fixing
07:56 <+perlDreamer> okay, JT
07:56 <+perlDreamer> I'm neck deep in DateTime anyway
07:56 <@rizen> i'll be back on bug fixing w-f of next week though
07:56 <@rizen> between support
07:56 <@rizen> anyway
07:56 <@rizen> thanks
07:57 <+perlDreamer> you're welcome, JT
07:57 <@rizen> good luck with DateTime
07:57 <+perlDreamer> thanks
07:58 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I'm hoping you read logs
07:59 <+perlDreamer> you were right
07:59 <+perlDreamer> this will never, ever work
07:59 <+perlDreamer> we cannot put a session object into WebGUI::DateTime
07:59 <+perlDreamer> inside add_duration, it overwrites $self with a newly created object
08:00 <+perlDreamer> this is done in several places
08:00 <+perlDreamer>     %$self = %$new;
08:18 <+perlDreamer> getting closer
08:18 <+perlDreamer> not subclassing clone, but from_object
08:26 <+perlDreamer> It's done.
08:26 <+perlDreamer> and fixed
08:27 <@rizen> wahoo
08:27 <@rizen> nice job man
08:27 <+perlDreamer> thanks
08:27 <+perlDreamer> I'd like you, Frank, Doug and Roy to give it the once over tomorrow to make sure that it's robust enough
08:28 <@rizen> i can't tomorrow
08:28 <@rizen> support + accounting
08:28 <@rizen> i'm tied up all day
08:28 <@rizen> but next week or this weekend
08:28 <@rizen> sure
08:28 <+perlDreamer> anytime before 7.3.6 would probably be fine
08:31 <@rizen> ok, must really hit the sack now
08:31 <@rizen> have to get up early
08:31 <@rizen> accounting shit takes all day
08:31 <@rizen> bye
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12:35 <+MrHairgrease> snapcount
12:35 <+MrHairgrease> shouldn't you be asleep?
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17:05 <@rizen> holy fucking shit batman
17:05 <@rizen> i just found a slow running query in the asset system
17:05 <@rizen> on some larger sites the query would take more than 6 seconds to run
17:06 <@rizen> but a new index i've added brings it down to 0.00003 seconds
17:06 < ckotil> nice
17:07 <@rizen> yes and no...i mean i'm glad to have found it, but sheepish to have not known about it sooner
17:09 < ckotil> naturally
17:10 <@rizen> the best part is that this particular fix should increase the performance of the navigation system severely
17:10 <@rizen> the nav system is habitually the worst performing subsystem in webgui
17:10 <@rizen> mainly cuz of everything it has to do
17:10 <@rizen> it's really loading a lot of assets
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17:44 <@snapcount> where's khenn
17:44 <@snapcount> perlbot seen khenn
17:44 <@rizen> he's here at my house
17:44 <@rizen> just getting set up
17:44 <@snapcount> oh
17:45 <@snapcount> tell him he broke the ProfileField test for checkbox
17:45 <@rizen> he has to sign some corporate documents
17:45 <@snapcount> so either his code sucks or the test is broke
17:45 <@rizen> so he came over
17:45 <@snapcount> b/c of the change
17:45 <@snapcount> cool
17:45 <@rizen> i'll tell him
17:45 <@snapcount> ty sir
17:45 < perlm> does the Databases wobject's dsn need to include host information?
17:46 <@snapcount> it defaults to localhost
17:46 <@snapcount> if not specified
17:46 < perlm> or is "DBI:mysql:database=wiki_test;" good enough?
17:46 <@rizen> roy
17:46 <@snapcount> yes
17:46 <@rizen> vrby says you need to call chris palamara
17:46 <@snapcount> ok... I'm on the phone with another client atm
17:46 <@snapcount> is it urgent?
17:46 <@rizen> the ip auth module is borked after the 7.3.5 upgrade
17:46 <@rizen> fairly
17:46 <@rizen> but you can finish your clal
17:46 <@rizen> call
17:47 <@snapcount> k
17:57 < perlm> This make any sense to anyone from the webgui.log?  Couldn't get UI level of WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::WSClient. Root cause: Can't locate object method "getUiLevel" via package "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::WSClient" at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset.pm line 492.
17:57 < perlm> If I ask too many questions here, just tell me to shut up.
18:04 < ckotil> i've seen that error before
18:04 < ckotil> i forget what caused it. it was a bitch tho
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18:10 <+perlDreamer> khenn: you here this morning?
18:11 <@khenn> I'm here
18:11 <@khenn> just signed in
18:11 <@khenn> what's up?
18:11 <+perlDreamer> good timing :)
18:11 <+perlDreamer> If Checkboxes are no good for profile fields, how about Checklists?
18:11 <@khenn> those work
18:11 <+perlDreamer> Or does wrapping it as a list make it okay?
18:12 <@khenn> I disabled checkboxes
18:12 <@khenn> they do not work at all
18:12 <@khenn> I created a checklist with 1 element
18:12 <@khenn> that worked fine for a "checkbox"
18:12 <+perlDreamer> cool, thanks.
18:12 <+perlDreamer> There's a test that double checks that all the correct profile fields report user profile enabledness
18:13 <+perlDreamer> and it needs to be updated, so I thought I'd check for all the Check* form fields
18:15 <@khenn> can't do it
18:15 <@khenn> checklists work
18:15 <+perlDreamer> Okay, I'll just add Checkbox to the test list and commit it.
18:17 <+perlDreamer> perlm: what version of WebGUI are you using?
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18:26 < ckotil> I think the webgui collateral Image Manager has a bug, it inserts an image into the rich editor but gives it the webguified internal url, /public/uploads/eh/...
18:27 < ckotil> nm. the file just disappeared on me.
18:27 <+perlDreamer> phew
18:27  * perlDreamer is over bugged
18:27 < ckotil> heh
18:28 <+perlDreamer> we always appreciate people finding bugs, but the fixing has been slow going recently
18:28 <+perlDreamer> maybe people could find easy bugs to fix
18:29 < ckotil> the collateral Image manager works quite well
18:42 -!- snapcount_ [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
18:50 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@224.248.95.24.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:11 < ckotil> Can the search asset search files that have been uploaded?
19:11 < ckotil> .doc .html ...etc
19:11 < ckotil> .pdf
19:12 <+perlDreamer> I think so
19:12 <+perlDreamer> there are plugins that translate them to plaintext
19:12 < ckotil> sweet
19:13 <+perlDreamer> hmm
19:13 <+perlDreamer> that means that we could even do images with OCR if we had the right software
19:13 < ckotil> wow that would be interesting
19:14 <+perlDreamer> snapcount_: is the Zip Archive going to be changed to not allow uploading of HTML files?
19:15 < snapcount_> no way
19:15 <+perlDreamer> you rock!
19:15 <+perlDreamer> bug - 1
19:15 < snapcount_> tis ze point of the asset
19:15 <+perlDreamer> but I found another bug
19:15 <+perlDreamer> bug + 1
19:15 < snapcount_> that's good
19:15 <+perlDreamer> the Zip Archive and Storage get real unhappy if you upload a zip file with subdirectories in it
19:16 < ckotil> perlDreamer: does the plugin that translates the files into plaintext ship with webgui 7.2.3?
19:16 <+perlDreamer> good question
19:17 < ckotil> i tried searching for some strings that are contained in a pdf, and got back 0 results. either bc it doesnt ship with it, or bc my search asset isnt configured to search those files.
19:18 <+perlDreamer> in the config file there is an entry for searchIndexerPlugins
19:18 <+perlDreamer> it tell the indexer how to handle files with various suffixes
19:18 <+perlDreamer> and the default settings are for text only
19:18 <+perlDreamer> to extend if to pdf, you'd add a .pdf entry and pdftotext, which should be standard on any Linux system
19:19 <+perlDreamer> or .doc, catdoc, etc.
19:19 < ckotil> ah ok. i see it. thanks
19:19 <+perlDreamer> np
19:37 < perlm> perlDreamer 7.3.3 beta
19:37 <+perlDreamer> I was looking through the IRC logs and you were having a problem
19:37 <+perlDreamer> I forget what it was.  Can you please remind me?
19:38 <+perlDreamer> or did you get it fixed?
19:39 < snapcount_> I have a problem
19:39 <+perlDreamer> What is your problem _snapcount?
19:39 < snapcount_> there are 700 million bugs posted and their status isn't closed
19:39 < snapcount_> =)
19:39 < snapcount_> can you fix that one?
19:40 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
19:40 <+perlDreamer> sure
19:40 < snapcount_> I'll give you a gold star...
19:40 <+perlDreamer> 699 million bugs to go :)
19:40 < snapcount_> excellent
19:40 < snapcount_> just keep counting as you close them
19:40 < snapcount_> so I know when you're done
19:40 <+perlDreamer> you got it, chief
19:40 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, please tell me your template variable observatin from last night again!
19:41 < PedersenMJ> Thank you for reminding me.
19:42 < PedersenMJ> This is probably somewhere in the docs already, and my skipping around and through them prevented me from seeing it. However, what I did not figure out until last night was that each type of object template has it's own set of predefined variables.
19:42 < PedersenMJ> For instance, creating a new (or modifying an existing) Navigation Template gives me access to variables which are available to all nav templates.
19:42 <+perlDreamer> right
19:42 < ckotil> perlDreamer: Are there any extra steps i need to take to get pdf search working? i've got pdftotext configured in the conf. ive told the search asset to search everything. reindexed the site.
19:43 < PedersenMJ> Like creating a new Page Layout template would give me access to Page Layout variables.
19:43 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: I'm working on theory through reading code.  I haven't actually done it.
19:43 < ckotil> i understand
19:43 <+perlDreamer> and still not working?
19:44 < ckotil> in theory it should work tho right?
19:44 < PedersenMJ> Simply put, until something was said last night (I can't remember the exact wording, though, I'm sorry to say) I didn't even understand the point of *having* the "Navigation Template" section of the helpfile.
19:44 <+perlDreamer> yes
19:44 < ckotil> yeah , not working, i cant get it to return anything.
19:44 <+perlDreamer> all the other plugins put data out on stdout, does pdftotext?
19:45 < ckotil> ah, no it does not. it creates a txt file
19:46 < ckotil> ill read tha man to see if i can make it output via stdout
19:47 < PedersenMJ> ckotil: pdftotext filename.pdf -
19:47 < ckotil> ;]
19:47 < ckotil> thanks
19:47 < PedersenMJ> At least, that just worked for me on a pdf that I have here :)
19:47 < ckotil> hrm now i wonder how to get that into the conf
19:48 <+perlDreamer> I don't know if you can pass postfix arguments
19:48 < ckotil> yeah i just did that too and it worked fine
19:48 <+perlDreamer> yeah, that's the problem
19:48 < ckotil> yeah :/
19:48 < PedersenMJ> Change the plugin to call "pdftotextwrap", instead. Make a shell script named "pdftotextwrap", and put it in the path. Here's the contents of pdftotextwrap
19:48 < PedersenMJ> #!/bin/sh
19:49 < PedersenMJ> pdftotext $1 -
19:49 < ckotil> noice.
19:49 < PedersenMJ> You can put the normal error checking/etc in it if you wish (and should).
19:50 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, perlDreamer, did my little observation about docs make any sense?
19:50 <+perlDreamer> yes
19:50 <+perlDreamer> I don't know how to change it, though
19:50 < PedersenMJ> I don't know how to have made it stand out for me, either.
19:51 < PedersenMJ> Wait, yes, I do: My primary starting point for the docs was the "How To Build A Style" page.
19:51 < PedersenMJ> That, after all, was my task in mind.
19:52 < PedersenMJ> Something in there which explained about templates/template vars, or told me to specifically read a secondary page about  templates, would have prevented me asking several stupid questions.
19:52 < PedersenMJ> Correction: Maybe not stupid, but questions that were answered in the docs.
19:55 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, that's why I was asking such stupid questions. I didn't know where to go from there, or how to even ask where to go. That page is very self-contained, which leads the reader to believe that it has all the info. At least, it did me.
19:55 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/builders/how-to-build-a-style
19:56 < PedersenMJ> I'm *definitely* writing up a new version of that page while I do my next theme. And the contributing it to wg/pb.
19:57 < ckotil> enter it into the contest
19:57 < ckotil> although. that tutorial is much better than i was able to find ~ 6 months ago
19:59 < PedersenMJ> It *is* a good tutorial, as it stands. It has a few errors in it (which I'll be documenting with the next rev), and lacks a few things that would help in gaining understanding. I converted the first theme more or less by rote, and didn't gain much understanding. Nor did I gain much info on *how* to gain understanding. Most of that, I got from here.
20:00 < PedersenMJ> I'm *not* complaining about the help I got from here, not at all. Please don't think I am. I just want to do even better for the next person who seeks that answer :)
20:01 < PedersenMJ> And yes, now that I know about that contest, I'll definitely enter it. Hey, couldn't hurt :)
20:30 -!- cap10morgan [n=cap10mor@vc1-868-3.adsl.indra.com] has joined #webgui
20:31 < cap10morgan> I'm about to start writing a "RecentPosts" macro to display the top 2 or 3 posts in a collaboration system to create a little preview of it elsewhere on the site. Would that be reinventing the wheel?
20:31 <+perlDreamer> You might search the boards for that.  I think I've seen it there.
20:31 < cap10morgan> perlDreamer: will do
20:44 < snapcount_> hey on pb.com
20:44 < snapcount_> if you guys hover over support button
20:44 < snapcount_> does it draw a jagged black rectangle through it?
20:44 <+perlDreamer> no
20:44 < snapcount_> my computer must be pissed
20:44 < snapcount_> I have four VMs running
20:45 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:45 <+perlDreamer> that would do it
20:45 < PedersenMJ> Nope, background becomes orange around support, that's it.
20:45 < snapcount_> so it's prolly FF puffing it's final breaths
20:45 <+perlDreamer> did you get my lame contest entry?
20:45 < snapcount_> ty
20:45 < snapcount_> that's actually useful me thinks
20:45 <+perlDreamer> cool
20:45 < snapcount_> more detail would be good but you can't really add any more
20:45 < snapcount_> b/c it's so specific to each router, etc
20:46 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:46 < snapcount_> if their setting up a server, they should be able to follow
20:46 < snapcount_> it's appropriate for the intended audience
20:46 < snapcount_> as it should be
20:46 < snapcount_> I'm going to do the karma transfers at the end of the contest
20:46 <+perlDreamer> it's okay
20:47 <+perlDreamer> I have lots of karma
20:47 < snapcount_> so I only have to do it once for each person
20:47 < PedersenMJ> Might be worth mentioning in there that the Linksys WRT54G does not have the ability to forward to a different port (ie: port 12345 can not be forwarded to port 80)
20:47 <+perlDreamer> is that before or after hacking it?
20:48 < PedersenMJ> Basically, a place to put notes in on routers, which is separate from your entry. Before any hacking of it.
20:48 <+perlDreamer> after installing Linux on it I'll bet it allows port forwarding
20:48 < PedersenMJ> It does port forwarding just fine.
20:48 <+perlDreamer> bugs-2
20:49 < PedersenMJ> i.e.: Forward port 12345 on firewall to port 12345 on the internal server? No problem.
20:49 < PedersenMJ> Forward port 12345 to port 80 on the server? Doesn't work out of the box.
20:49 <+perlDreamer> bummer
20:49 <+perlDreamer> I wonder if my Verizon default router will do that...
20:49 <+perlDreamer> well, there are instructions on how to setup the WRE on high ports somewhere
20:49 <+perlDreamer> I'll amend the HOWTO with those notes.
20:50 < PedersenMJ> Dunno. But I know that I was helping someone set up a DVR server, and we had to fight with that issue very much.
20:50 <+perlDreamer> Thanks, PedersenMJ!
20:50 < PedersenMJ> They wanted external access to their internal dvr. I didn't agree, but hey, it's what they wanted. You're welcome.
20:50 <+perlDreamer> snapcount_: we need a workflow to post messages to IRC when bugs are opened or closed.
20:50 <+perlDreamer> then we could ask perlbot how many open bugs there are
20:51 <+perlDreamer> you could also bridge karma that way
20:51 < PedersenMJ> perlDreamer: Don't forget to add a link for no-ip. I'd have to google, since I've never used them.
20:51 <+perlDreamer> okay
20:51 < snapcount_> problem is this
20:52 < snapcount_> our ISP (and most others on the planet)
20:52 < snapcount_> will not allow you to connect to irc from your server
20:52 < snapcount_> at all
20:52 < snapcount_> for anything
20:52 < snapcount_> however
20:53 < snapcount_> if there is a webservice or something we could use
20:53 < snapcount_> that might be possible
20:53 < snapcount_> maybe we could add soap listener to perl bot
20:53 <+perlDreamer> there you go
20:53 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: bugs
20:53 < perlbot> http://tinyurl.com/glbun
20:53 < snapcount_> on port (anti-irc port# goes here)
20:54 < snapcount_> but even then
20:54 < snapcount_> we may be in violation
20:54 < snapcount_> so we might need to connect to a webservice on the server perlbot runs on
20:54 < snapcount_> some kind of cgi script
20:54 <+perlDreamer> how did perlbot know about the bugs keyword?
20:54 < snapcount_> then we would be safe
20:54 <+perlDreamer> that's some bug
20:55 < snapcount_> now what would really be cool
20:56 < snapcount_> is if you could get a bug summary and close bugs from IRC
20:56  * snapcount_ shrugs
20:57 < snapcount_> it's a slippery slope b/c of our ISP so I doubt JT would even take the chance with it
20:57 <+perlDreamer> the summary would be awesome, but controlling who can close bugs might be tricky
20:57 < snapcount_> I didn't say it would be easy
20:57 < snapcount_> just cool =)
20:58 < snapcount_> something like "perlbot close bug 12345 my-password-goes-here"
20:58 < snapcount_> but then you'd need ssl, etc
20:58 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:58 <+perlDreamer> plus over the channel it would be plaintext
20:58 < snapcount_> you would priv mesg him
20:58 <+perlDreamer> but if perlbot could look up my IRC handle from my wG account
20:58 < snapcount_> just like authenticating to chan serv
21:14 < ckotil> any diff funcitonality in webgui?
21:18 <+perlDreamer> no
21:18 <+perlDreamer> it would be nice
21:32 -!- perlDreamer is now known as perlRunner
21:45 < ckotil> yeah i was thinking the same thing
21:46 < xdanger> have thought about that too =)
21:46 < xdanger> I'd be c00lio...
21:46 < ckotil> i wonder if theres an rfe for it?
21:47 < xdanger> I probably could code it =)
21:48 < ckotil> no rfe.
21:49 < ckotil> we've been discussing requirements for a document management system. and webgui meets most of the requirements.
21:49 < xdanger> just pop up this in there: http://search.cpan.org/~dwheeler/Text-Diff-HTML-0.04/lib/Text/Diff/HTML.pm
21:52 < xdanger> I wanna have myself a new macbook pro =(
21:52 < xdanger> this ibook is slooooow...
21:52 < ckotil> yeah. the pro's are sick
21:53 < ckotil> twice as much as a macbook
21:54 < perlm> perlRunner The problem I was having earlier is errors like this keep showing up in my webgui.log Couldn't get UI level of WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::WSClient. Root cause: Can't locate object method "getUiLevel" via package "WebGUI::Asset::Wobject::WSClient" at /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset.pm line 492.
21:54 < perlm> and How-To-Build-A-Style worked really well for me.  Between that file and the css03.css example, I was able to understand the frameworks invovled.
22:01 -!- preaction [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:02 -!- preaction [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
22:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o preaction] by ChanServ
22:15 < perlm> Okay, I've looked and can't find it.  In a Data Form, what are "tabs"?  When I create one and put entry fields in it, they don't show up in the form.
22:30 < perlm> I'm guessing that the Data Forms are bugged and that Tabs shouldn't be used.
22:32 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
22:35 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
22:40 <@rizen> exit
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22:44 < diakopter> perlm: the WSClient problem is a known issue with the version of the wre you are using
22:44 < diakopter> you have to install some additional perl modules from cpan in the wre's perl.
22:52 <+perlRunner> perlm: You have to add tabs to the form and then move dataform fields into them.
22:53 <+perlRunner> ++diakopter for WSClient help
22:53 <+perlRunner> perlbot: karma diakopter
22:53 < perlbot> Karma for diakopter: 1
22:53 <+perlRunner> how 'bout that, just like in #perl6
22:53 < perlm> I don't use WRE.  And I have added the tabs to the form, but they never show up and also my fields disapear if I assign them to a tab.
22:53 < ckotil> when using commite w/ approval , can i require x amount of people to approve before its commited?
22:54 <+perlRunner> ckotil: Not with the current workflow.
22:54 < ckotil> will it ever?
22:54 <+perlRunner> it would require a custom workflow
22:54 <+perlRunner> it is doable
22:54 < ckotil> ok.
22:54 <+perlRunner> maybe a custom Workflow Activity as well
22:55 <+perlRunner> perlm: just for kicks, can you duplicate your setup on a webgui demo site?
22:55 <+perlRunner> http://demo.plainblack.com
22:56 <+perlRunner> perlbot learn http://demo.plainblack.com as demo
22:56 < perlbot> added http://demo.plainblack.com to the database
22:56 <+perlRunner> perlbot tell perlRunner about demo
22:56 < perlbot> demo isn't something I know about, perlRunner
22:56 <+perlRunner> perlbot unlearn http://demo.plainblack.com
22:56 <+perlRunner> perlbot learn demo as http://demo.plainblack.com
22:56 < perlbot> added demo to the database
22:56 <+perlRunner> perlbot help
22:56 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
22:59 <+crythias> perlbot tell me about marriage
22:59 < perlbot> marriage isn't something I know about, crythias
22:59 <+crythias> perlbot tell me about being cool.
22:59 < perlbot> being cool isn't something I know about, crythias
22:59 <+crythias> perlbot tell me about women
23:00 <+crythias> wow
23:00 <+crythias> I feel... scared
23:00 <+perlRunner> perlbot is in good company
23:01 <+crythias> (15:58:22) perlbot: told me: The woman is passive. She waits for his initiation, judging him in everything he does. She waits for him to kiss her, not resisting but always silently judging. Always judging. Always silently. And when he finally fails to meet her expectations, he won't get an explanation, he won't know why this one slipped through his fingers, leaving only a final papercut on his heart.
23:01 <+perlRunner> I was wrong
23:01 <+perlRunner> perlbot is wise
23:05 <+perlRunner> perlbot: what do you know?
23:05 < perlbot> I know everything
23:06 <@preaction> good god that's emo
23:06 <+perlRunner> what is emo?
23:07 <+perlRunner> I need someone with IE to help me for about 2 minutes with a bug.
23:07 <+perlRunner> any takers?
23:07 <@preaction> the kids who listen to bands like Fallout Boy and Muse, who spout on about how the girls they love don't love them, who whine and moan and complain that they aren't handed everything in life
23:07 <+crythias> ok
23:07 <@preaction> the ones who can't simply shut up and stop whining and think about someone else besides themselves for a change
23:08 <+perlRunner> crythias: grab a demo account and try to edit any template
23:08 <+crythias> ie7 ok?
23:08 <+perlRunner> I don't know
23:08 < perlm> perlRunner, setting it up right now.  But remember, I'm in 7.3.3(beta)
23:08 <+perlRunner> perlm: this has to be 7.3.5
23:09  * crythias feels weird... IE 7 never runs on my machine.
23:09 <+perlRunner> crythias: all I know is that vrby said that he can't edit templates on 7.3.5
23:10 <+crythias> logging in, admin on
23:10 <+crythias> edit article
23:11 <+crythias> display, edit style03
23:11 < perlm> perlRunner, I did it and now I know it must be user error, because my form entry disappeared into the Tab which isn't visible.
23:11 <+crythias> save. ok
23:11 <+perlRunner> no problems?
23:11 <+crythias> commit changes
23:11 <+crythias> no problems.
23:12 < perlm> yes problems
23:12 < perlm> I can't find the tab
23:12 <+crythias> perlm: one sec
23:12 < perlm> I committed the changes, then ran the workflow
23:12 <+perlRunner> perlm: try using the tab template
23:12 < perlm> tab template on the data form or page layout?
23:12 <+perlRunner> data form
23:14 < perlm> I see.  The tab form made the tab show up with my missing entry, but the non-tab entries disappeared.  Procedurally this can make the data form wizard broken, since you can't create tabs before entries, so if you use a tabbed layout, you will not find your entries, and a regular layout will make your tabs invisible.
23:14 < perlm> But that resolves my problem.  Just had to learn the trick of the data forms :)
23:14 <+perlRunner> crythias, thanks for the help.  I'll have to wait for specifics from vrby
23:15 <+perlRunner> perlm:  that may make a good contest entry.  How to use Tabs on the DataForm
23:15 < perlm> I'll stick it in the Wiki if I get a chance today.
23:16 <+perlRunner> perlbot tell us about wiki
23:16 <+perlRunner> perlbot relearn wiki as http://wiki.webgui.org
23:16 < perlbot> relearned entry for wiki
23:16 <+crythias> sticky wiki
23:16 <+perlRunner> perlbot tell us about wiki
23:18 < perlm> Looks like I'll have to edit the tab template so that tab text appears above the entries.  I need to use that as instructions for that particular tab.
23:19 < ckotil> while fooling around with the workflow, i think i found a bug. i required approval from 2 differnet groups. then I got a user to commit the version tag, and the version tag & the file simply disappear
23:19 <@preaction> perlbot wiki
23:19 < perlbot> http://wiki.webgui.org
23:19 < ckotil> the user didnt exist in either of the 2 groups.
23:20 <@preaction> I'm going to start running a Perlbot (not the same as this perlbot, which is a chrisbot) in here, for WebGUI
23:20 <@preaction> perlbot is for #perl mostly ;)
23:20 <+perlRunner> who is running this perlbot?
23:20 < perlbot> I already have an entry for who
23:20 <@preaction> i've got like three computers doing absolutely nothing at the moment
23:20 <@preaction> chris62vw, one of the ops at #perl
23:21 < ckotil> :x 'pending versions
23:21 < ckotil> '
23:21 <+perlRunner> wrong window
23:22 < PedersenMJ> hey, wait, what error is vrby getting?
23:22 <+perlRunner> can't edit a template
23:22 < ckotil> how do you commmit a pending version?
23:22 < PedersenMJ> what does he see when he tries?
23:22 <+perlRunner> PedersenMJ: blank screen
23:22 <+perlRunner> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/template-editor-broken#i5lfYHiTczFgPyPsJQKWNA
23:23 < PedersenMJ> pR: I ask because I've started to see some odd behavior with Opera, and thought it was just me, but that error sounds similar.
23:24 < perlm> I LOVE WebGUI.  30 seconds and I've moved the Tab subtext from below the field entries to above the field entries.  RAWK!
23:25 < perlm> I'm off to show the users how to use the tabs
23:25 < PedersenMJ> Basically, I click on edit on the template, and instead of getting the template, I get a garbled version of the page (equivalent to visiting http://www.nochara.org/burned ), but that error never happens in Firefox.
23:25 < PedersenMJ> brb
23:34 < PedersenMJ> Okay, back.
23:48 <+perlRunner> PedersenMJ: have you read the built-in documentation with wG?
23:51 < PedersenMJ> Not all of it. In fact, not much of it, truthfully.
23:51 <+perlRunner> There is a lot of info in there, if you can wade through it all
23:51 <+perlRunner> at last count, about 350 pages
23:53 < PedersenMJ> I believe it. My major issue is that I'm not sure of *how* to read it. Yes, I know that sounds dumb, but much of what I have read assumes other pieces of knowledge. Being as this is a book, there's not any clear start to finish point for that documentation.
23:53 < PedersenMJ> Erm, being as this is *not* a book.
23:53 <+perlRunner> When you turn on Admin and go to the Admin Console, it's the life saver icon.
23:53 <+perlRunner> It's also on most editing screens
23:56 < PedersenMJ> Yep, I've seen it, and browsed into it. But, where *actually* do you start reading it? Nothing jumps out at me as "Here's the foundations of what you need to know in order for the rest of it to make sense."
23:59 < PedersenMJ> Actually, that might be another document I could work on writing up.
--- Day changed Sat Jan 20 2007
00:02 <+perlRunner> the docs are topical, not thematic, so it's usually best to browse the chapters or view the index
00:03 -!- khenn [n=fdillon@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
00:04 < PedersenMJ> Right. But that then begs the question: Which chapter do I need to view to answer the question I have right now?
00:04 <+perlRunner> it would be nice if when you were editing a template that it would give you a link to the correct template docs for that type of template.
00:04 <+perlRunner> was that a rhetorical question?
00:05 < PedersenMJ> For the novice at webgui, there's a lot of chapters there, and not a lot of way to know which chapter you need to read.
00:05 <+perlRunner> yes
00:05 <+perlRunner> Maybe we need another index
00:05 <+perlRunner> Beginner topics:
00:06 < PedersenMJ> Index? No, I don't think so. Not unless you mean something different than I do when I think of an index (I think of what I find in the back of a reference manual).
00:07 <+perlRunner> maybe I need to start thinking about the built-in docs as a reference manual
00:07 <+perlRunner> since I spend so much time maintaining them, I kind of take for granted my familiarity with them
00:07 < PedersenMJ> Unfortunately, I still fit the definition of a novice.
00:09 < PedersenMJ> Well, here's what I think of, for me (note that I am a weirdo by most people's definitions, so this is probably not universal): I like to read. Give me a book, and I *will* read it, as long as it is readable.
00:10 < PedersenMJ> To that end, the webgui primer probably will be what I want/need. Should probably get it, too, now that I think about it.
00:10 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, here's where the docs fail *for me*: The pages talk about topics that are more thoroughly covered in other chapters, but fail to link to those other chapters.
00:11 <+perlRunner> now that's something that can be fixed
00:11 <+perlRunner> do tell
00:11 < PedersenMJ> Or, in fact, fail to mention those other chapters exist, as far as I can tell. Let me find a good example, just a sec.
00:13 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I'm looking at an old version of webgui (7.2.0), but it's the only one I have readily accessible. Specifically, the help section on "Navigation Template"
00:13 <+perlRunner> yes
00:13 < PedersenMJ> Here's the description of the page: These variables are available in Navigation Templates:
00:14 < PedersenMJ> I seem to recall seeing more than that in the later version I have on my laptop, but I don't have access to that version right now.
00:14 <+perlRunner> what else should it say?
00:15 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, if I *had* found this page on my own, getting to it before other pages, I'd write it off as useless. What are these variables? Why do I *care* what these variables are? What *is* a navigation template? Why do I care? When would I ever use it?
00:18 < PedersenMJ> In conjunction with much more information, the page is incredibly useful. For instance, after working out the ideas of looping in a template, usage of variables in a template, etc, I *now* see incredible value in this page.
00:18 <+perlRunner> but at first, it was just a listing of variables with no rationale
00:18 < PedersenMJ> Exactly.
00:19 < PedersenMJ> I think I see a potential idea here: What if the help pages had a "related topics" section on each page? Someplace that questions like the ones I posed could be listed, and answers linked to?
00:20 <+perlRunner> there is a related topics section to each page, but not to that kind of information.
00:20 < PedersenMJ> It's *hard* to get docs, I know that. Please, understand that I'm not attacking the docs as they are written, but hoping to find a way to help improve them.
00:20 <+perlRunner> I know.  I've seen you in here long enough to know that you always deserve the benefit of the doubt
00:21 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, now I see it. It shows some links to closely related ideas, it just doesn't show me how those ideas fit together.
00:21 <+perlRunner> right.
00:21 <+perlRunner> the docs are brief by design, but perhaps a little too brief
00:21 <+perlRunner> it sounds like a short introductory paragraph would help, especially with the template docs
00:22 < PedersenMJ> Tell you what, I've got an idea that might help to show what I mean. Let me finish the current theme I'm converting, and then I'll take a crack at the navigation template (and related), and give you a patch next week sometime to check out?
00:22 <+perlRunner> sure, but realize that the built-in docs are stored as code, not as prose
00:23 < PedersenMJ> That's okay. I'll skip making it into a code patch then, and make a wgpkg.
00:23 <+perlRunner> can't do packages either
00:23 <+perlRunner> it could be a custom translation though
00:23 <+perlRunner> here's a sample:
00:23 <+perlRunner> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI%20SVN/view/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/i18n/English/Asset_Navigation.pm
00:23 < PedersenMJ> To show what I mean, though? And to let you evaluate what I'm talking about? Whether or not it becomes code in future, this can provide an idea.
00:23 <+perlRunner> sure
00:23 <+perlRunner> I can codify it
00:24 <+perlRunner> hacking text is my specialty
00:25 < snapcount_> txtHack0rz
00:26 <+perlRunner> oh, go help vrby
00:26 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I see what you mean. Definitely not friendly to write, not when just trying to get ideas out :)
00:26 <+perlRunner> PB.com is borken
00:26 < snapcount_> eh?
00:26 <+perlRunner> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/template-editor-broken#i5lfYHiTczFgPyPsJQKWNA
00:26 < snapcount_> oh that
00:26 < snapcount_> ok I'll see what his major malfunction is
00:27 < PedersenMJ> BTW, thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I try not to abuse needing it, but I know that I can be one of the worst at doing that.
00:27 <+perlRunner> hardly
00:27 <+perlRunner> you never complain
00:27 <+perlRunner> you ask direct questions and wait for answers
00:27 <+perlRunner> you help other people out
00:27 <+perlRunner> and you donate content back to the community
00:27 <+perlRunner> you've easily earned that status
00:27 < PedersenMJ> I can also be abrasive and annoying. I try not to :)
00:28 <+perlRunner> well, you're doing great so far
00:28 <+perlRunner> off to the showers
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00:29 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. I'll finish this theme, and work on some help ideas, to see what you might think.
00:52 < cap10morgan> Is there an easy way, via the API, to get a list of threads in a collaboration system?
00:53 < snapcount_> hold on cap10morgan I'll look
00:54 < cap10morgan> thanks
00:54 < snapcount_> oh duh
00:54 < snapcount_> I'm an idiot
00:55 < snapcount_> threads are children of the CS
00:55 < snapcount_> so you can do something like
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00:55 < snapcount_> my $threads = $cs->getLineage([descendants],{returnObjects=>1});
00:56 < snapcount_> where cs is the collab system object that is the parent of your threads
00:56 < snapcount_> $threads is an array ref of objects
00:56 < snapcount_> so you can loop through them
00:57 < cap10morgan> sweet, thanks roy
00:57 <+perlDreamer> time to write the template dumper
00:57 < snapcount_> you're welcome, let me know if you have any more questions
00:57 < cap10morgan> will do :)
00:58 < snapcount_> perlDreamer: sweet
00:58 < snapcount_> what is this thing for again?
00:58 <+perlDreamer> I'm guessing we have lots of pending bugs due to JS and HTML/XML quoting issues
00:58 <+perlDreamer> might as well dump the templates, do code analysis on them and then fix 'em proactively
00:59 <+perlDreamer> and since the easiest way to import them is to use the upgrade script, I'll export them in that format as well.
01:00 < snapcount_> here you go
01:00 < snapcount_>  a gift from me to you
01:00 < snapcount_> my $root = WebGUI::Asset->getRoot($session);
01:00 < snapcount_> my $assets = $root->getLineage([descendants],{returnObjects=>1});
01:00 < snapcount_> foreach my $asset (@$assets) {
01:00 < snapcount_> 	next unless $asset->get("className") eq "WebGUI::Asset::Template";
01:00 < snapcount_> 	
01:00 < snapcount_> 	# dump it
01:00 < snapcount_> }
01:01 < snapcount_> you probably just finished writing that exactly
01:01 < snapcount_> b/c it probably takes you about as long as me to do so
01:01 < snapcount_> but it was fun none the less
01:02 < snapcount_> actually
01:02 < snapcount_> I think you can pass a where clause to getLineage
01:02 < snapcount_> and limit the results to nothing but templates
01:02 < snapcount_> which would be a hell of a lot faster
01:02 < snapcount_> than what I posted... but I could be making that up in my head =D
01:04 < snapcount_> yep
01:04 < snapcount_> =head4 includeOnlyClasses
01:04 < snapcount_> An array reference containing a list of asset classes to include in the result. If this is specified then no other classes except these will be returned. The opposite of the excludeClasses rule.
01:04 <+perlDreamer> nice
01:08 < snapcount_> preaction: if you host a perlbot and make it a webgui bot, can it pull pod from webgui
01:08 < snapcount_> it can already do so from the perl built-ins right?
01:08 <@preaction> i'm not going to run a chrisbot
01:08 <@preaction> perlbot codebase
01:08 < perlbot> check out my insides: http://chrisangell.com/incoming/chrisbot/v3
01:08 <@preaction> but rather a perlbot
01:09 < snapcount_> uhh
01:09 < snapcount_> that was a bit disturbing
01:09 < snapcount_> "check out my insides"
01:09 <@preaction> http://perlbot.org
01:09 <@preaction> though maybe i don't want to use it, since it's using Net::IRC instead of PoCo::IRC
01:10 <@preaction> but then again i think chrisbot is using custom sockets, which is probably worse
01:11 < snapcount_> so did you hear the news perlDreamer ?
01:11 <+perlDreamer> no
01:11 <+perlDreamer> what's new?
01:11 < snapcount_> at the end of the month, the whole staff will be doing nothing but bugfixes for like 3 days straight
01:12 < snapcount_> it's going to rule
01:12 <+perlDreamer> hmmmm
01:12 <+perlDreamer> who knows if I'll have a chip by then
01:12 <+perlDreamer> maybe I can tag along and learn more
01:12 < snapcount_> absolutely
01:12 < snapcount_> we'll all be on channel
01:12 < snapcount_> the whole time
01:13 <+perlDreamer> sweet!
01:13 < snapcount_> it will be a "community experience"
01:13  * snapcount_ cues the soft music
01:13 < snapcount_> "you are feeling relaxed"
01:14  * diakopter prepares for a community experience
01:14 < snapcount_> diakopter: do you have guitar hero II yet?
01:15 < diakopter> no.  is it ps2 or ps3
01:15 < snapcount_> ps2 but I think ps3 can run older games also
01:15 < snapcount_> good songs... it's fun
01:15  * diakopter rocks out on an air guitar.
01:16 < diakopter> urrr... push-button guitar
01:16 < snapcount_> actually, I'm going to have some junk food and play some Sweet Child O' Mine
01:16 < snapcount_> weeeeee
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01:16 < diakopter> s/weeeeee/wiiiiii/ ?
01:19 < cap10morgan> dumb perl question: how do you ask an object what it's class is?
01:20 < diakopter> $className = ref ( $objectRef );
01:20 < cap10morgan> cool, thanks
01:21  * PedersenMJ ponders finding the call center I've been transferred to at HP, and releasing various chemical, biological, and nuclear agents into the ventilation system there.
01:24 < PedersenMJ> That, of course, would only be done after sealing off the doors and windows.
01:26  * diakopter prepares to leave the HP call center where he works
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01:31 < PedersenMJ> Good idea, diakopter. Have had nothing but runaround in dealing with them today. Worst part is the time I had to spell scsi for the person I spoke with.
01:31 <+perlDreamer> It's probably an international call center
01:34 < PedersenMJ> Oh, I *know* it is. But for dealing with an HP server, having to spell "scsi" for the person taking the call isn't exactly a rousing bit of happiness.
01:46 < cap10morgan> hmm, so i've got some sql reports that i'd like to move into a format that uses the api instead. i wrote a macro, but it would sure be nice if there was a way i could fill some template vars like the sql report does instead of just generating output to the page. is that easily doable?
01:46 < cap10morgan> some kind of "api report" wobject, i guess :)
01:47 <+perlDreamer> how would it work?
01:47 < cap10morgan> it would return an array ref to some objects, and then you call up the params of that object (->get'able stuff) in the template
01:47 < cap10morgan> that's what i'm imagining, i don't care if it works that or not, as long as there's some way to do this... :)
01:48 <+perlDreamer> are the objects always of the same kind?
01:49 < cap10morgan> in this case, yeah, they're WebGUI::Asset::Post::Thread's
01:49 <+perlDreamer> so what you would really like is more template variables in the main view of the CS?
01:50 < cap10morgan> not in the CS, this is for displaying a summary view of the CS, basically
01:50 < cap10morgan> but outside it
01:51 < cap10morgan> it's using sql reports now, but that breaks everytime the db schema changes, obviously
01:51 < cap10morgan> i have a macro that calls getLineage on the CS wobject, which works too, but i have no flexibility on how it gets output in the template like i do w/ the sql report
01:51 <+perlDreamer> macros can have templates
01:52 <+perlDreamer> check out the a_account macro
01:52 <+perlDreamer> lib/WebGUI/Macro/a_account.pm
01:56 < cap10morgan> hmm, ok. intriguing
01:57 < cap10morgan> ah ha!
01:57 < cap10morgan> perfect!
01:57 < cap10morgan> thanks! :)
01:57 <+perlDreamer> you're welcome
02:32 <+perlDreamer> more fun tonight
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04:38 <+perlDreamer> play it, snap_hero!
04:47 <+perlDreamer> ah ha ha ha ha ha ha
04:47 <+perlDreamer> that will fill up the file system
04:49 <+perlDreamer> just fyi
04:49 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI ships with 191 templates
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04:49 <+perlDreamer> that's just the published versions
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05:05 < perlm> If someone started a survey, then logged out, is there any way for that person to continue the survey from where they left off?
05:09 <+perlDreamer> when you log out, you lose your user session
05:09 <+perlDreamer> I'm guessing not
05:10 <+perlDreamer> it would be a good RFE though, to persist the user's survey progress in a cookie
05:11 < perlm>  why does it need to be client side?  When the user comes back to the survey, WG sees they have already taken it.  It would be just as easy to see if they had finished it, and if not prompt the next question.
05:11 <+perlDreamer> because when you log out, it clears your user session
05:12 < perlm> When you log back in though, it has to check the DB before displaying the survey to make sure you haven't already taken it.
05:12 <+perlDreamer> yes
05:13 <+perlDreamer> I see, you're thinking of persisting it in the actual Survey table?
05:13 <+perlDreamer> that could be done
05:13 <+perlDreamer> rizen may have objections to that particular.  maybe so, maybe not
05:13 <+perlDreamer> in that case, write the RFE with the desired functinality and let the implementer choose the method
05:13 < perlm> no, I thinking of checking the survey results table to see if submitted answers for the user = total answers for survey.  If not, prompt for next answer.
05:14 < perlm> shouldn't require any schema changes, only the survey wobject in how it validates survey completed counts.
05:14 <+perlDreamer> yes.
05:15 < perlm> if I could log into work, I'd try to do it tonight and submit the change.
05:15 < perlm> I guess I could update my local install to the latest and try to do it here.
05:15 <+perlDreamer> Do you mean to SVN or as an RFE?
05:16 < perlm> err, I don't know how I would submit completed code for upgrades/modifications.
05:16 <+perlDreamer> All changes go through the RFE process, so...
05:16 < perlm> in a nice email to JT with description, reason, and prettified code.
05:16 <+perlDreamer> 1) submit the RFE, and attach the patch
05:16 <@preaction> make a patch, and attach it to the RFE
05:16 < perlm> kewl
05:16 <@preaction> if you attach it, the community can look at it
05:16 <@preaction> it's not just JT anymore
05:16 <@preaction> roy being the major player
05:17 < perlm> I like the sound of "community"
05:17 <@preaction> me being a backup player, and once WebGUI.org spins off into its own entity, we'd like to see lot more community leaders
05:17 <+perlDreamer> snap_hero: for reference, here's how to scan the templates for tmpl_var's inside of javascript
05:17 <@preaction> (who don't have the benefit of plainblack employment)
05:17 <+perlDreamer> grep -l 'script\>' *.tmpl | xargs perl -ne 'print "$ARGV:$_" if /<script/ .. m#/script#;' | grep tmpl_var | perl -lan -F':' -e 'print $F[0];' | sort | uniq > scriptedTemplates
05:17 <@preaction> good lord, shell-scripting machine
05:18 <+perlDreamer> it took me a while to write
05:18 <@preaction> i can mysqldump | sed | mysql
05:18 <@preaction> lol
05:18 <+perlDreamer> sed?
05:18 <+perlDreamer> SED?
05:18 <+perlDreamer> what kind of perl hacker are you?
05:24 < perlm> Does a WRE instance use more ram than a source instance of WG?
05:24 <+perlDreamer> it depends on the number of children
05:25 <+perlDreamer> and probably several other factors
05:25 <+perlDreamer> like the config files for Apache and MySQL
05:25 < perlm> hmm
05:32 < perlm> weird.  I just recalled a dream I had a long time ago about monsters chasing me and the only way to stop them was by unpacking an archive, but I couldn't because a corrupted version existed and was owned by root, and I couldn't overwrite.
05:51 < perlm> This is either going to be easy or hard.  The problem is how to allow users to skip questions.  Without a paradigm change, the users will not be able to skip questions with my edit to getResponseCount which would only return completed surveys.
05:52 < perlm> Maybe I should add a new survey Wobject called don't-skip-crap-survey.
05:56 < perlm> As it is, users can't skip questions anyway.  
05:56 < perlm> I just tried clicking Next on an unanswered qestion and it brought me back to that question.  So altering getResponseCount shouldn't break anythig.
05:57 < perlm> You can skip anything that requires free text input.
05:57 < perlm> But I'm not sure if that is a bug or a feature.
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06:13 <+perlDreamer> howdy everyone
06:13 < wgGuest41> it's roy and his other personality
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06:15 <+perlDreamer> snapcount is schizo
06:15 < PedersenMJ> Cool! What a way to come back to the chan :)
06:16 <+perlDreamer> the template dumper is done
06:16 <+perlDreamer> wgGuest41: check the logs for the shell script I wrote
06:16 <+perlDreamer> better yet, here:
06:16 <+perlDreamer> grep -l 'script\>' *.tmpl | xargs perl -ne 'print "$ARGV:$_" if /<script/ .. m#/script#;' | grep tmpl_var | perl -lan -F':' -e 'print $F[0];' | sort | uniq > scriptedTemplates
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06:28 < snap_hero> how do you hide the url of a link when someone hovers on it so it's replaced with text
06:28 <+perlDreamer> set the title tag of the href?
06:28 < snap_hero> I thought that's what I did
06:28 < snap_hero> let me look and see if I screwed it up
06:29 < snap_hero> <a onclick="window.open('/demo1169266463_486/uploads/jK/89/jK89pO_4ACnO7OSJO3Ldug/chat.html','WebGUI Community Chat','height:640 width:400'); return false;" href="#" title='WebGUI Community Chat'>Click here to Chat</a> 
06:29 < PedersenMJ> Quick ?: Can I nest <tmp_if> tags?
06:29 <+perlDreamer> yes
06:29 <+perlDreamer> 4 seconds
06:29 <+perlDreamer> not bad
06:30 < PedersenMJ> 4 seconds?
06:30 <+perlDreamer> you said "Quick"
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06:31 < PedersenMJ> Very true. Didn't catch that :)
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06:35 <+perlDreamer> uh, Houston, we have a problem
06:36 <+perlDreamer> I've only seen this on one template so far, but is has all the template metadata in it.
06:36 <+perlDreamer> #assetId=ZipArchiveTMPL00000001
06:36 <+perlDreamer> #title=Default Zip Archive Template
06:36 <+perlDreamer> #namespace=ZipArchiveAsset
06:36 <+perlDreamer> <tmpl_if session.var.adminOn>
06:36 <+perlDreamer>    <tmpl_if controls>
06:36 <+perlDreamer>       <p><tmpl_var controls></p>
06:36 <+perlDreamer>    </tmpl_if>
06:36 <+perlDreamer> </tmpl_if>
06:39 <+perlDreamer> just one template
06:39 <+perlDreamer> this template dumper is handy!
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06:50 < PedersenMJ> For alternate page layouts (in particular, ones involving multiple columns) is there a standard name for the div for the second/third/etc columns?
06:51 <+perlDreamer> I don't think so
06:52 < PedersenMJ> In fact, for the first column, as well. For instance, the template I'm converting has a div id of "main" and a secondary of "sidebar".
06:53 < PedersenMJ> Too bad. Ah well, can't be perfect, then.
07:32 < preaction_> PedersenMJ: though I wouldn't be opposed to starting to standardize some of the core template IDs and classes, and the semantics as well, so that we can have drop-in stylesheets
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07:33 < PedersenMJ> Nor would I, though I'm not ready to submit that for an RFE yet.
07:33 <@preaction> perlDreamer: you still awake? did you get that DateTime crap to work? i thought i saw something along that line in here last night before i went to bed
07:33 < PedersenMJ> No excuse for it, I'm just not :)
07:34 <@preaction> i mean, webgui is about to go a long way in our Perl coding practices and javascript coding practices, i'd like to see some hedway in our html/css coding practices
07:39 <+perlDreamer> preaction, it's checked in and working
07:39 <@preaction> ok, thanks
07:39 <+perlDreamer> it turns out that DateTime has two ways of duplicating objects
07:40 <+perlDreamer> clone
07:40 <+perlDreamer> and add_duration does its own as well
07:40 < PedersenMJ> Okay, now I'm getting frustrated with these variables. If this is my URL ( http://localhost/getting_started ) What page.is* condition can I use in a tmpl_loop to single it out for special treatment (in fact, anything can be in place of getting_started, such as tell_a_friend, sitemap, etc).
07:40 <+perlDreamer> via a subroutine called form_object
07:40 < PedersenMJ> I've tried page.isDepth1 page.isDepth2 and page.isTopOfBranch
07:40 <+perlDreamer> so I subclassed it and it started working
07:40 <@preaction> sweet
07:40 <+perlDreamer> I added an explicit addition test to DateTime.t so we can monitor it
07:41 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, how do you want it singled out?
07:41 <+perlDreamer> by name
07:41 <+perlDreamer> by location?
07:41 <@preaction> and why doesn't plainblack hire you again?
07:41 <@preaction> can't afford you?
07:41 <+perlDreamer> I'm overpriced :)
07:41 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I want to ignore it.
07:41 <+perlDreamer> ignore it?
07:42 < PedersenMJ> Yep. I want the tmpl_loop to skip right over it.
07:42 <+perlDreamer> what I mean is, how do you want to tell that this is the right page to ignore?
07:42 <+perlDreamer> by name?
07:42 <+perlDreamer> by URL?
07:42 < PedersenMJ> Anything which is hanging off of root.
07:42 <+perlDreamer> anything hanging off root is depth 1
07:42 < PedersenMJ> page.isDepth1
07:43 < PedersenMJ> Somehow, I did something wrong with it, then.
07:43 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I'm also a rank amateur
07:43 <+perlDreamer> i design chips
07:43 <@preaction> anything hanging off of the first level of your requested navigation configuration is depth 1
07:43 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: how about pasting a piece of your template for us to peek at?
07:43 <@preaction> ahh, which is interesting because that API you made was quite nice
07:44 < PedersenMJ> perlbot help
07:44 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
07:44 <@preaction> perlbot nopaste
07:44 < PedersenMJ> perlbot tell me about pastebin
07:44 < perlbot> Paste your code at http://sial.org/pbot/perl and #perl will be able to view it
07:44 <@preaction> which reminds me, i'll do that now
07:44 <+perlDreamer> cool
07:44 <+perlDreamer> It works, but robustness may be a separate issue altogether.
07:46 < PedersenMJ> http://sial.org/pbot/22524
07:46 < PedersenMJ> This is a second navigation menu that I'm building. I don't want it to show the root *or* any pages hanging off of root.
07:49 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: try changing isTopOfBranch to depthIs1
07:51 < PedersenMJ> Nope, that didn't cover it, unfortunately.
07:52 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
07:52 < PedersenMJ> Also just tried depthIs2
07:53 <+perlDreamer> what's the URL to your site?
07:53 <+perlDreamer> can you please show me the nav with isTopOfBranch?
07:53 < PedersenMJ> Not quickly. Will take me a few minutes. It's on localhost.
07:54 < PedersenMJ> Must make package, and set it up on demo.pb
07:54 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'll be around a little while longer
07:58 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169272591_0/
07:59 < PedersenMJ> Once there, click on any of the links in the top menu, and the lower menu will appear.
07:59 < PedersenMJ> login/password: Admin/123qwe
08:00 < PedersenMJ> The particular asset that is the problem: root>Andreas02>andreas02_sibmenu
08:01 <+perlDreamer> according to you nav, it shouldn't even have ancestors
08:01 <+perlDreamer> oh
08:01 <+perlDreamer> but you asked for self and siblings
08:01 <+perlDreamer> which is the same thing as shown in the top nav
08:02 < PedersenMJ> Exactly. And that looks very unclean to me, which is why I'm trying to hide them.
08:02 <+perlDreamer> off by 1 problem
08:03 <+perlDreamer> root is dept 1
08:03 <+perlDreamer> home is depth 2
08:03 <+perlDreamer> everything under home is depth 3
08:03 < PedersenMJ> And these are depth 3.
08:03 <+perlDreamer> yup
08:03 < PedersenMJ> Dang it. Ah well, now it can be fixed. Shoulda tried that depth 3.
08:03 <+perlDreamer> well, it is very site layout dependent
08:04 <+perlDreamer> gotta run and take care of some soup
08:04 <+perlDreamer> I'll be back on Monday
08:04 <+perlDreamer> good luck, dude
08:04 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""""]
08:04 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. By Monday, I should have this posted.
08:05 -!- webgooey [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
08:05 <@preaction> HA! it works!
08:05 <@preaction> webgooey say hi
08:05 <@preaction> ... okay, it works...
08:05 <@preaction> `help
08:05 <@preaction> ~help
08:05  * PedersenMJ pokes webgooey
08:06 <@preaction> god damnit
08:06 <@preaction> `?
08:06 < PedersenMJ> Okay, it's damned.
08:06 -!- webgooey [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
08:09 -!- webgooey [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
08:09 <@preaction> this is about as intuitive as the black slab from 2001
08:10 < PedersenMJ> Funny, that's what I think about any efforts I make to fix windows machines :)
08:10 <@preaction> oh dur... the username isn't registered so it can't recieve PMs
08:10 <@preaction> #help
08:10 <@preaction> or send PMs
08:11 -!- webgooey [n=doug@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
08:31 < PedersenMJ> Sweet! That theme is now actually done. I just have to write up the necessary docs for it.
08:35 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169272591_0/
08:36 < PedersenMJ> Anybody that wishes can view the new template there. I'll write the docs tomorrow night, and post the new template on the contributions page after that.
08:42 <@preaction> so i've spent 40 minutes trying to configure eggdrop, when i finally remember what the bot is called that I really want
08:42 <@preaction> http://infobot.org
08:43 < PedersenMJ> Ugh. 40 minutes to configure an irc bot sounds worse than painful.
08:44 <@preaction> yeah... perlbot was worse
08:44 <@preaction> i don't even want to know what chris has done to chrisbot
08:50 -!- preaction is now known as webgooey
08:50 -!- webgooey is now known as gooeybot
08:50 -!- gooeybot is now known as preaction
08:51 < PedersenMJ> Okay, that should make perlDreamer a bit happier. I've just submitted the RFE to use standard names in Page Layout Templates.
08:53 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/standardize-layout-names-for-templates#FyLBXhE9hE-ZJfw_zyk4CQ
08:58 < PedersenMJ> Wow... I put a whole 20 karma into that RFE, and that bumped it from page 11 to page 7.
08:59 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
08:59 <@preaction> hello?
08:59 < PedersenMJ> hello?
08:59 <@preaction> hello is Hi $user
08:59 <@preaction> hello?
08:59 < gooeybot> hello is Hi $user
08:59 <@preaction> interesting
09:00  * PedersenMJ ponders teaching it some not so nice things... Wonder if it would work :)
09:01 <@preaction> of course it would
09:01 <@preaction> hello is <reply>Hi, $who
09:01 <@preaction> hello?
09:01 < gooeybot> hello is Hi $user
09:02 < PedersenMJ> heh. Could it to say nasty things to iPhoneGuy every time he says something.
09:02 <@preaction> no
09:02 <@preaction> gooeybot, forget hello
09:02 < gooeybot> preaction: I forgot hello
09:02 <@preaction> gooeybot: hello is <reply>Hi, $who
09:02 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
09:02 <@preaction> hello?
09:02 < gooeybot> Hi, preaction
09:02 < PedersenMJ> No, not going to. That would be just wrong.
09:03 <@preaction> google for webgui
09:03 <@preaction> gooeybot: google for webgui
09:03 <@preaction> damnit
09:03 < PedersenMJ> Now, I've got to run. It's 2am here, and I've got more moving to do tomorrow.
09:04 < PedersenMJ> anyway, g'night. Will chat later!
09:04 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
09:06 <@preaction> google for webgui
09:06 <@preaction> damnit, and google's stopped their SOAP API
09:15 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit ["regrouping; bbiab"]
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09:15 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
09:15 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
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09:15 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
09:16 <@preaction> stupid damned freenode making me edit the infobot source
09:16 <@preaction> gooeybot tell preaction about hello
09:16 < gooeybot> hello, preaction
09:20 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
09:20 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
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09:23 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
09:24 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
09:24 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
09:24 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
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09:26 <@preaction> gooeybot love
09:26 < gooeybot> preaction: excuse me?
09:26 <@preaction> love?
09:26 <@preaction> gooeybot i love you is <reply>I don't swing that way, $who
09:26 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
09:26 <@preaction> i love you?
09:27 <@preaction> gooeybot i love you
09:27 < gooeybot> preaction: i'm not following you...
09:27 <@preaction> sunnuvawhat?
09:27 <@preaction> i love you
09:28 <@preaction> gooeybot: i love you
09:28 < gooeybot> preaction: what?
09:28 <@preaction> gooeybot: WebGUI is A CMS and Application Framework written in Perl
09:28 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
09:29 <@preaction> gooeybot: WebGUI is also http://webgui.org
09:29 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
09:29 <@preaction> webgui?
09:29 < gooeybot> webgui is A CMS and Application Framework written in Perl or http://webgui.org
09:29 <@preaction> i love you?
09:29 <@preaction> damnit
09:29 <@preaction> gooeybot botsnack?
09:29 < gooeybot> thanks preaction :)
09:31 <@preaction> now to give it some attitude
09:32 <@preaction> doesn't work is <reply>Look $who, doesn't work is a strong statement.  Does it sit on the couch all day?  Does it want more money?  Is it on IRC all the time? Be specific!  Examples of what doesn't work (or the URL) tend to help too.
09:33 <@preaction> tell preaction about doesn't work
09:33 < gooeybot> Look preaction, doesn't work is a strong statement.  Does it sit on the couch all day?  Does it want more money?  Is it on IRC all the time? Be specific!  Examples of what doesn't work (or the URL) tend to help too.
09:33 <@preaction> tell gooeybot about doesn't work
09:33 < gooeybot> Isn't that a bit silly, preaction?
09:33 <@preaction> tell perlbot about doesn't work
09:33 <@preaction> forget doesn't work
09:33 < gooeybot> preaction: I forgot doesn't work
09:34 <@preaction> doesn't work is <reply>Look buddy, doesn't work is a strong statement.  Does it sit on the couch all day?  Does it want more money?  Is it on IRC all the time? Be specific!  Examples of what doesn't work (or the URL) tend to help too.
09:34 <@preaction> wiki is http://wiki.webgui.org
09:34 <@preaction> wiki is also yet another place to get help with WebGUI
09:34 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
09:34 <@preaction> wiki
09:34 <@preaction> wiki?
09:34 < gooeybot> rumour has it wiki is http://wiki.webgui.org or yet another place to get help with WebGUI
09:36 <@preaction> wcc is WebGUI Community Contest
09:36 <@preaction> wcc is also http://plainblack.com/wcc
09:36 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
09:36 <@preaction> wcc
09:36 <@preaction> wcc?
09:36 < gooeybot> hmmm... wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
09:36 <@preaction> gooeybot: wcc
09:36 < gooeybot> i guess wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
09:37 <@preaction> gooeybot: wcc?
09:37 < gooeybot> hmmm... wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
09:37 <@preaction> oh, i see, the <reply> gets rid of that stupid crap
09:38 <@preaction> gooeybot: join #modus
09:38 < gooeybot> preaction: excuse me?
09:44 <@preaction> gooeybot, yow
09:44 < gooeybot> YOW!!  I'm in a very clever and adorable INSANE ASYLUM!!
09:56 <@preaction> perlbot shorten http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/webgui-community-contests-return
09:56 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/ub9o
09:56 -!- preaction changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: 7.2.3 | beta: 7.3.5) WRE (0.7.2) :: Stop Chatting and Earn Cash, Prizes, and Fame! http://xrl.us/ub9o :: Don't Tread on the Topic
09:58 -!- preaction changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI (stable: 7.2.3 | beta: 7.3.5) -- WRE (0.7.2) -- http://webgui.org :: Stop Chatting and Earn Cash, Prizes, and Fame! http://xrl.us/ub9o :: Don't Tread on the Topic
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15:00 < pjesi> what is the key difference of Asset.pm and Wobject.pm
15:00 < pjesi> I am going to make a new content type
15:00 < pjesi> dont know what to extend
16:25 -!- khenn [n=fdillon@c-71-57-54-205.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #WebGUI
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16:37 <@khenn> morning
16:37 <@khenn> anyone around today?
16:39 < pjesi> I am
16:54 <@khenn> you wouldn't by chance know of any issues (other than never being able to view the page in the asset manager) with having 100,000+ children in the asset manager would you?
16:55 <@khenn> well, any issues with an asset having 100,000+ children
16:56 < pjesi> not there yet no :)
17:01 < pjesi> me client wants to be able to select a content in a folder to be "featured" and also to pick six of them to be displayed in a list, I figured the best way would be to create a new Asset that extends Folder, what do you think?
17:53 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
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18:07 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has joined #webgui
18:15 < pjesi> can I commit patches?
18:34 < perlm> I have a question about surveys.  Any question type that doesn't require a typed response, will not let you submit an unanswered question.  But a question that requires a typed response, will allow you to submit a blank response.  Are survey takers supposed to be allowed to skip questions?
19:05 <@khenn> I honestly am not sure
19:05 <@khenn> I haven't done much with that asset and I didn't write it
19:05 <@khenn> has anyone used WebGUI's approval system?
19:06 <@khenn> anyone find it odd that the status reported about tags pending approval is 'error'
19:17 < perlm> I find that odd.
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19:28 <@khenn> me too
19:28 <@khenn> anyone know what the cachetimeout on files does?
19:30 -!- Hinrik [n=hinrik@dsl-228-236.hive.is] has joined #webgui
19:31 < Hinrik> what could be wrong if starting apache with webgui enabled takes a really long time?
19:31 < Hinrik> takes one second when I comment out all the webgui stuff in my apache configuration
19:31 <+MrHairgrease> it can take pretty long sometimes
19:32 < Hinrik> it sometimes takes 7 minutes here
19:32 <+MrHairgrease> oh
19:32 <+MrHairgrease> well it shouldn't take that long
19:32 < Hinrik> :)
19:32 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
19:32  * PedersenMJ waves.
19:32 < pjesi> hi
19:32 < gooeybot> hey, pjesi
19:32  * Hinrik requests help
19:33 <+MrHairgrease> the longest startup time that 've was prolly 15 secs or so
19:33 < PedersenMJ> Only on for a few minutes, as I'm going to be heading over to my old place to continue moving out.
19:33 < PedersenMJ> Hinrik: Whatcha need?
19:33 < Hinrik> PedersenMJ: starting apache with webgui enabled can take up to 7 minutes
19:34 < pjesi> anything in the logs?
19:34 < PedersenMJ> Ouch. That one will take me longer to resolve than I have time for right now (maybe 5 minutes or so). Have you tried starting it manually, and turning on debugging?
19:34 < Hinrik> just this:
19:34 < Hinrik> [Sat Jan 20 17:30:08 2007] [notice] suEXEC mechanism enabled (wrapper: /usr/sbin/suexec2)
19:34 < Hinrik> [Sat Jan 20 17:30:11 2007] [notice] Digest: generating secret for digest authentication ...
19:35 < PedersenMJ> BTW, all: next theme I'm uploading is visible at: http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169272591_0/
19:35 < Hinrik> PedersenMJ: how do I turn on debugging?
19:35 < PedersenMJ> Will be doing docs, and then uploading, later tonight (within the next 14 hours).
19:35 <+MrHairgrease> hinrik: are you using the wre?
19:35 < Hinrik> no
19:36 <+MrHairgrease> maybe the digest secret key thingy i taking reaaly long
19:36 <+MrHairgrease> Ive never seen this behaviour before
19:36 < PedersenMJ> apache2 -X
19:36 < Hinrik> well, it doesn't always take this long, it's pretty random
19:36 < PedersenMJ> or, on fedora, it's likely httpd -X
19:36 < pjesi> it happened after enabling webdav correct?
19:36 <+MrHairgrease> that's just single server mode
19:36 < Hinrik> pjesi: no
19:37 < PedersenMJ> No, it's "Run apache2 in debug mode.  Only one worker will be started and the server will not detach from  the console"
19:37 < Hinrik> I'll try that
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20:47 < perlm> I wonder how my url.conf file got transformmed into a JSON formatted file.
21:32 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]"]
21:58 < pjesi> 2007/01/20 18:33:35 - FATAL - WebGUI.conf - WebGUI::Session::ErrorHandler::fatal[207] - Couldn't
21:58 < pjesi> execute prepared statement: SELECT u.userId AS userId, a1.fieldData AS ldapConnection FROM users
21:58 < pjesi> AS u INNER JOIN authentication AS a1 ON u.userId = a1.userId WHERE a1.fieldName = 'ldapConnection
21:58 < pjesi> ' AND u.authMethod = 'LDAP' ORDER BY ldapConnection, userId LIMIT ?,18446744073709551615 : With p
21:58 < pjesi> lace holders: 0.  Root cause: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresp
21:58 < pjesi> onds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''0',18446744073709551615' at
21:58 < pjesi> line 1
21:58 < Hinrik> http://sial.org/pbot/ :P
21:59 < pjesi> I thought it was two lines sorry
21:59 < Hinrik> hehe
22:00 < pjesi> the limit is clearly not proper SQL syntax
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22:59 <@preaction> pjesi: i believe that's a known bug, what version are you using?
23:00 < Hinrik> he's using 7.3.5
23:01 < Hinrik> how did you know what he said?
23:01 <@preaction> hello?
23:01 < gooeybot> Hi, preaction
23:01 < Hinrik> hm?
23:01 <@preaction> gooeybot is a terminal on my compydore
23:01 < Hinrik> I see
23:02 < Hinrik> preaction: would you happen to know anything about mod_perl making apache take ages to start/stop?
23:02 <@preaction> for some reason DBI is quoting that 0, so wherever that is, we can't use a placeholder for the limit clause
23:03 <@preaction> just modperl? or mod_perl + webgui?
23:03 < Hinrik> just mod_perl
23:04 < Hinrik> I tried to start it without any webgui stuff enabled and it's still slow
23:04 < Hinrik> takes 1 second to start if I disable mod_perl altogether
23:04 <@preaction> how fast is the system? how much resources is it taking up (use top), and how slow is slow?
23:06 < Hinrik> 2x 2.6GHz P4 cpus
23:06 < Hinrik> er, 1x, I mean
23:06 < Hinrik> and slow would be up to 7 minutes sometimes
23:07 <@preaction> Ram?
23:07 <@preaction> hard disk?
23:07 <@preaction> are you using a network share?
23:07 < Hinrik> no shares, plenty of HD space and RAM
23:07 < Hinrik> it isn't always this slow, just most of the time
23:07 < Hinrik> and only with mod_perl
23:08 < Hinrik> I've never used it before so I'm not that familiar with it
23:08 <@preaction> how big is your site?
23:09 <@preaction> and what do you mean by "plenty"? we're talking a 1 gig minimum for WebGUI
23:09 < Hinrik> it doesn't have anything to do with that. If I have an empty DocumentRoot and no webgui or anything enabled, it still takes a few minutes to start apache with mod_perl
23:09 <@preaction> the WRE apache's mod_perl?
23:09 < Hinrik> no
23:09 <@preaction> this might be a question for #apache
23:09 < Hinrik> perhaps :)
23:14 <@preaction> or i believe there's a way to get apache to run interactively in the terminal, so you can see where the holdup is
23:14 <@preaction> let me man apachectl to see
23:14 < Hinrik> I tried that
23:14 <@preaction> with debug output?
23:14 < Hinrik> looks just the same
23:14 < Hinrik> there are no errors
23:14 < Hinrik> it's just slow
23:14 <@preaction> what part is slow?
23:15 < Hinrik> what do you mean "part" ?
23:16 <@preaction> did you run: apachectl -X -kstart ?
23:16 < Hinrik> nothing happens for a few minutes, then the "Starting webgui 7.3.5" is printed and it finishes
23:16 <@preaction> the -X should show a whole slew of information, like "Loading module", and "Loading config file" etc...
23:17 < Hinrik> Hm
23:17 < Hinrik> Doesn't do that here
23:17 <@preaction> oh
23:17 <@preaction> apachectl -e debug -X -k start
23:17 < Hinrik> ah
23:18 < Hinrik> that's better
23:20 < Hinrik> [Sat Jan 20 21:17:37 2007] [debug] mod_so.c(248): loaded module apreq_module
23:21 < Hinrik> after this, I have to wait a few minutes, then I get:
23:21 < Hinrik> Starting WebGUI 7.3.5
23:21 < Hinrik>         Loading WebGUI.conf
23:21 < Hinrik> WebGUI Started!
23:21 < Hinrik> twice
23:22 < Hinrik> hm, gonna try without webgui, wait
23:24 <@preaction> so it's WebGUI
23:24 <@preaction> 3 minutes is a tad excessive
23:25 < Hinrik> it's not webgui
23:26 < Hinrik> now I have webgui disabled, it just printed "loaded module perl_module", and I'm still waiting
23:27 < Hinrik> still waiting..
23:28 <@preaction> is your site up? try it
23:28 <@preaction> it's running interactively, so after "loaded module perl_module", it's done
23:28 < Hinrik> it doesn't answer
23:29 < Hinrik> just "Waiting for [sitename]..."
23:29 <@preaction> only a couple vhosts, i imagine?
23:29 < Hinrik> only one
23:29 <@preaction> i'd take this to #apache, they're the experts, and you've just hit my wall of info
23:29 < Hinrik> ok
23:29 < Hinrik> thanks
23:32 <@preaction> what's the load average on your box? try top
23:33 < Hinrik> no load
23:33 <@preaction> Hinrik: also, how was mod-perl compiled? did you get it from your distro? and/or compiled against your apache?
23:33 <@preaction> (these are things that #apache are telling me to ask)
23:33 < Hinrik> from the distro
23:34 < Hinrik> the distro being Gentoo
23:35 <@preaction> you might want to check the gentoo forums for this, could be a compilation problem
--- Day changed Sun Jan 21 2007
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01:09 <@preaction> damnit, i can't WORK with an IRC client open.. i need to constantly check it
02:58 -!- specsmu [n=rmiller@adsl-69-232-61-48.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #webgui
02:58 < specsmu> hello
02:58 < gooeybot> hi, specsmu
02:58 < specsmu> what are your hourly rates?
02:58 < specsmu> I have an older webgui install that has broken for no apparent reason and I need to get it back running
03:15 < Radix__> what's the logs say?
03:25 < specsmu> a sec
03:26 < specsmu> 2007/01/20 20:04:54 - WARN - lemarsct.com.conf - WebGUI::tryAssetMethod[229] - Couldn't call method view on asset for url:  Root cause: Can't call method "definition" on unblessed reference at /home/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Shortcut.pm line 386
03:26 < specsmu> putting in undefs to completely disable using shortcuts seems to have temporarily fixed the problems
03:26 < specsmu> I think a template or an asset got corrupted
06:34 <@preaction> specsmu: this is a community help channel for WebGUI, this is not (however much it seems it is) a Plain Black only channel ;)
06:34 <@preaction> specsmu: what version?
06:35 <@preaction> also, I hate Frank
06:36 <@preaction> he couldn't design a decent API if his life depended on it... 3 hours fixing some weird convoluted shit and I'm still forced to use his magical crap
06:36 <@preaction> damnit, gooeybot is logging this...
06:38 <@preaction> specsmu: it looks like something is trying to call ->definition on a hashref or arrayref or something, when it should be trying to do "WebGUI::Asset::*->definition"
06:55 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
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06:56 <@preaction> roy! buddy! pal!
06:56 <@snapcount> no hable englis
06:56 <@preaction> yo quero taco bell?
06:56 <@snapcount> mmmm chicken
06:56 <@snapcount> I see a gooeybot in our midst
06:59 <@snapcount> gooeybot who is thou daddy
06:59 < gooeybot> no idea, snapcount
06:59 <@snapcount> that's depressing
06:59 <@snapcount> gooeybot code
06:59 < gooeybot> snapcount: huh?
06:59 <@snapcount> I like him
06:59 <@preaction> :p
06:59 <@snapcount> gooeybot fetch
06:59 < gooeybot> snapcount: excuse me?
06:59 <@preaction> wiki?
06:59 < gooeybot> i guess wiki is http://wiki.webgui.org or yet another place to get help with WebGUI
07:00 <@preaction> wcc?
07:00 < gooeybot> i think wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
07:00 <@snapcount> 42?
07:00 <@preaction> that, i think, is about as far as I've gotten
07:00 <@snapcount> he doesn't know what 42 is?!
07:00 <@snapcount> this is unacceptable
07:00 <@preaction> i've got ideas for writing some plugins for it, but i might just scrap the infobot and make something better
07:00 <@preaction> like buubot, or a bot based on chrisbot
07:01 <@snapcount> so did you want something preaction? you seemed a little over friendly earlier
07:01 <@preaction> but i'm too busy being angry at frank's lack of ability to create a coherent API
07:01 <@snapcount> like the 3 year old caught taking cookies before bed time
07:01 <@preaction> not really, no
07:01 <@snapcount> that makes me happy
07:01 <@snapcount> I see new peeps
07:01 <@preaction> just approaching that type of livid where everyone who will listen to my bitching is a friend
07:02 <@preaction> indeed
07:02 <@snapcount> this also makes me happy
07:02 <@snapcount> well, our irc client will be on plainblack as soon as Steve makes me a coolio icon to launch it
07:02 <@preaction> word
07:03 <@snapcount> you should teach your bot all the crap in the topic
07:03 <@snapcount> so the topic can reflect current conversation
07:03 <@snapcount> and when people ask that stuff, have the bot answer
07:03 <@preaction> we should put an article above the forums detailing that people should check the Community Wiki (and soon the IRC channel) in addition to the forums
07:03 <@snapcount> which forum?
07:04 <@preaction> version is Current stable is 7.2.3. Current beta is 7.3.5. Current WRE is 0.7.2.
07:04 <@preaction> version?
07:04 < gooeybot> i heard version was Current stable is 7.2.3. Current beta is 7.3.5. Current WRE is 0.7.2.
07:04 <@preaction> gooeybot: version
07:04 < gooeybot> it has been said that version is Current stable is 7.2.3. Current beta is 7.3.5. Current WRE is 0.7.2.
07:04 <@snapcount> so he learns based on every statement?
07:04 <@preaction> yes
07:04 <@snapcount> what if there is conflict
07:04 <@snapcount> roses are red.
07:04 <@snapcount> roses?
07:04 < gooeybot> roses are red
07:04 <@snapcount> roses are green.
07:04 <@snapcount> roses?
07:04 < gooeybot> roses are red
07:04 <@preaction> what if there?
07:05 <@preaction> it's apparently pretty smart
07:05 <@preaction> gooeybot: forget roses
07:05 < gooeybot> preaction: I forgot roses
07:05 <@preaction> roses are green
07:05 <@preaction> roses?
07:05 < gooeybot> roses are green
07:05 <@preaction> gooeybot forget roses
07:05 < gooeybot> preaction: I forgot roses
07:05 <@snapcount> intesting
07:05 <@preaction> gooeybot roses are red
07:05 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
07:05 <@snapcount> seems like he will learn a lot of stuff that is useless
07:05 <@preaction> gooeybot roses are also sometimes white
07:05 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
07:05 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
07:06 <@preaction> gooeybot roses
07:06 < gooeybot> roses are red or sometimes white
07:06 <@preaction> gooeybot roses is also |<reply>quit bothering me
07:06 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
07:06 <@preaction> roses?
07:06 < gooeybot> quit bothering me
07:06 <@preaction> roses?
07:06 < gooeybot> quit bothering me
07:06 <@snapcount> 42 is the meaning to life, the universe and everything.
07:06 <@snapcount> 42?
07:06 < gooeybot> 42 is the meaning to life, the universe and everything.
07:06 <@snapcount> nice
07:07 <@snapcount> wcc?
07:07 < gooeybot> it has been said that wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
07:07 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: teaching gooeybot to teach others
07:07 <@preaction> no, gooeybot, wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
07:07 < gooeybot> i already had it that way, preaction.
07:08 <@preaction> rofl
07:08 <@snapcount> gooeybot, I'm rubber and you're glue, everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.
07:08 < gooeybot> snapcount: excuse me?
07:09 <@preaction> oh, hey, do we have a google SOAP API key?
07:09 <@preaction> since theres that google search on plainblack
07:09 <@snapcount> you mean plain black?
07:09 <@preaction> gooeybot can do google searching, if i have one of them keys
07:09 <@snapcount> maybe we do
07:09 < gooeybot> preaction: excuse me?
07:10 <@snapcount> I have no idea
07:10 <@preaction> then you can say:
07:10 <@preaction> google for WebGUI
07:10 <@preaction> and it would return some results
07:10 <@snapcount> can he host a game of UNO?
07:10 <@preaction> not that i'm aware of
07:10 <@snapcount> dang it
07:10 <@preaction> he's not eggdrop, but he's pure perl
07:10 <@preaction> (but his source is a mess)
07:11 <@preaction> fajita, in #apache, runs the same codebase
07:11 <@snapcount> gooeybot where is preaction?
07:11 < gooeybot> snapcount: i haven't a clue
07:11 <@preaction> gooeybot seen rizen
07:11 < gooeybot> I haven't seen 'rizen', preaction
07:11 <@snapcount> ah
07:11 <@preaction> gooeybot seen crythias
07:11 < gooeybot> I haven't seen 'crythias', preaction
07:11 <@preaction> gooeybot seen khenn
07:11 < gooeybot> khenn was last seen on #webgui 11 hours, 42 minutes and 37 seconds ago, saying: anyone know what the cachetimeout on files does? [Sat Jan 20 11:30:09 2007]
07:11 <+crythias> hm
07:11 <@snapcount> I'm the Jedi Master!!!!!!!
07:11 <@preaction> gooeybot seen crythias 
07:11 < gooeybot> crythias was last seen on #webgui 11 seconds ago, saying: hm [Sat Jan 20 23:13:01 2007]
07:11 <@snapcount> gooeybot seen snapcount 
07:11 < gooeybot> snapcount was last seen on #webgui 0 seconds ago, saying: gooeybot seen snapcount  [Sat Jan 20 23:13:18 2007]
07:11 <@preaction> so it does work
07:12 <@snapcount> lmao
07:13 <@snapcount> gooeybot who is the Jedi Master?
07:13 < gooeybot> i haven't a clue, snapcount
07:14 <@snapcount> can he fetch rss?
07:14 <@preaction> gooeybot step 1 is Check the error logs, both WebGUI and Apache.
07:14 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
07:14 <@preaction> not that i know of
07:14 <@preaction> http://infobot.org 
07:14 <@preaction> gooeybot infobot
07:14 < gooeybot> well, infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
07:15 <@snapcount> that would be cool
07:15 <@snapcount> cuz we could see recent commits
07:15 <@snapcount> forum posts
07:15 <@snapcount> etc etc
07:15 <@preaction> indeed
07:15 <@preaction> look at the source, it shouldn't be too hard
07:15 <@preaction> or wait for me to migrate chrisbot to using Module::Pluggable
07:16 <@snapcount> both of those sites are borken
07:16 <@preaction> http://www.infobot.org
07:16 <@preaction> no, gooeybot, infobot is http://www.infobot.org
07:16 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
07:17 <@snapcount> negative ghostrider
07:17 <@preaction> i was seeing a cached version
07:17 <@preaction> it must just be temporarily down
07:17 <@snapcount> WebGUI?
07:17 < gooeybot> it has been said that WebGUI is A CMS and Application Framework written in Perl or http://webgui.org
07:18 <@snapcount> gooeybot WebGUI will also rock your socks off.
07:18 < gooeybot> snapcount: huh?
07:18 <@preaction> mainly, i didn't want people to stomp on perlbot's facts, since perlbot is not mine
07:18 <@preaction> "is" is the keyword, or "are"
07:18 <@snapcount> I see
07:19 <@preaction> you can make a random response with |
07:19 <@preaction> (pipe)
07:19 <@preaction> or a direct reply with "<reply>response"
07:19 <@snapcount> gooeybot roy is a |
07:19 < gooeybot> OK, snapcount.
07:19 <@snapcount> roy?
07:19 < gooeybot> roy is probably a |
07:19 <@snapcount> not a random definition I suppose
07:20 <@snapcount> gooeybot |
07:20 < gooeybot> snapcount: i'm not following you...
07:20 <@preaction> gooeybot diss is <reply>You suck|<reply>You still suck|<reply>You suck worse than a hoover
07:20 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
07:20 <@preaction> diss?
07:20 < gooeybot> You suck
07:20 <@preaction> diss?
07:20 < gooeybot> You suck worse than a hoover
07:20 <@preaction> diss?
07:20 < gooeybot> You suck worse than a hoover
07:20 <@snapcount> oh... | is a delimiter for possible responses
07:20 <@snapcount> I thought he would just make something up
07:20 <@preaction> when you want a random one
07:21 <@snapcount> are you hosting this on your server?
07:21 <@preaction> yes
07:21 <@preaction> i've got a whole computer doing diddly crap, so i decided why not
07:21 <@preaction> all it does is display a nice matrix screensaver... all day long
07:25 <@snapcount> so I'm thinking when the uploads feature is added to the Wiki, there should be some kind of meta variable that can be used to show the image inline with the article
07:25 <@snapcount> or completed rather
07:25 <@preaction> the html editor can't do that instead?
07:26 <@snapcount> well, JT for whatever reason doesn't want people using the RTE to add images to wiki articles
07:26 <@snapcount> he said the feature was supposed to be disabled
07:26 <@snapcount> at least for our site
07:26 <@preaction> understandable, it's not necessary for us
07:26 <@preaction> but other sites
07:26 <@snapcount> why is it not necessary for us?
07:26 <@snapcount> I think it is
07:27 <@snapcount> screen shots for tutorial articles would be incredibly helpful
07:27 <@preaction> convince him, man
07:27 <@preaction> might as well convince a rock to move of its own free will
07:27 <@snapcount> so why do you think they are un-necessary for us
07:27 <@preaction> nono, i agree with you
07:28 <@preaction> at least, for webgui.org
07:28 <@snapcount> I think his issue may be that the images are uploaded and become assets
07:28 <@snapcount> and are not deleted if the wiki entry is
07:28 <@snapcount> because he's clearly ok with attachments
07:28 <@snapcount> he put the code in to do it
07:28 <@snapcount> just didn't finish it
07:29 <@preaction> could we treat images uploaded by the rich editor specially? link them to an asset and delete them when the asset is deleted?
07:29 <@snapcount> I also want the Wiki to support Karma, Ratings, and Subscriptions
07:31 <@snapcount> We could but I'm not sure how it's currently implemented so I don't know how hard/easy it would be
07:34 <@snapcount> so have any of the new people on channel spoke yet?
07:34 <@preaction> yes, we've been trying to help them a bit
07:34 <@snapcount> cool
07:34 <@preaction> there was an apache problem, and a problem with an old version of wg
07:34 <@snapcount> cool
07:34 <@snapcount> get em all fixed up?
07:34 <@preaction> don't know
07:35 <@preaction> nothing back on the old version problem
07:35 <@preaction> and i directed the apache problem to #apache, because it far surpassed my knowledge
07:35 <@snapcount> what was the problem?
07:35 <@snapcount> sounds interesting
07:35 <@preaction> somehow after the modules loaded, but before the sites became active, there was a 2-5 minute delay
07:36 <@preaction> running a distro Apache / mod_perl
07:36 <@snapcount> sweet
07:36 <@snapcount> that sounds highly annoying
07:36 <@preaction> indeed
07:36 <@preaction> i got as far as running interactively with debug output, and nothing remarkable about it
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11:01 <@preaction> gooeybot no women is The Internet: Where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, and the Kids are FBI.
11:01 < gooeybot> preaction: no idea
11:01 <@preaction> gooeybot no women
11:01 < gooeybot> preaction: excuse me?
11:02 <@preaction> gooeybot no women is <reply>The Internet: Where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, and the Kids are FBI.
11:02 < gooeybot> i haven't a clue, preaction
11:02 <@preaction> you suck gooeybot
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17:46 < specsmu> heh
17:46 < specsmu> sorry bout that I went to bed
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02:15  * Radix-wrk yawns loudly.
02:15 <@preaction> keep it down in here!
02:16 <@preaction> i distinctly heard a ruckus!
02:18 <@preaction> 7:51PM  up 77 days, 14:02, 3 users, load averages: 0.56, 0.41, 0.29 <- 90Mhz pentium running Apache2, rtorrent, samba, svn, postfix, and courier-pop3
02:18 <@preaction> poor thing
02:20 < Radix-wrk> heh
02:20 < Radix-wrk> that's a pretty good load average considering!
02:21 < Radix-wrk> my old desktop pc's tend to become my servers whenever I upgrade, so my server always tends to be pretty decent really.
02:21 < Radix-wrk> that's at home anyway
02:22 <@preaction> indeed, with this new lappy i've got a compy just sitting there, once i rebuild it, install FreeBSD or something, it'll probably end up taking over the apache2 load, and maybe the ssh/rtorrent load too
02:23 <@preaction> that, and i need to upgrade my wintendo box, so i can play Supreme Commander, so the mobo currently in there will become server number three, i'm hoping to set up a FreeBSD box as a router/DNS/port forwarder etc... for my home network
02:23 <@preaction> unless linux would be better
02:23 <@preaction> i haven't had anyone tell me if iptables is better or worse than the BSD pf
02:24 < Radix-wrk> all much of a muchness I thought
02:24 < Radix-wrk> all comes down to how you configure it :)
02:24 <@preaction> well, pf has QoS and scheduling built-in
02:24 < Radix-wrk> there's plenty of QoS options on linux these days too
02:24 <@preaction> iptables is in the kernel, and there's a userspace utility to add QoS
02:25 <@preaction> i suppose it comes down to: pf seems easier to configure
02:25 < Radix-wrk> well there you go then
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02:27 < perlm> Can someone tell me how to force an event to the log file.  I think I've resolved all my spectre config issues, but nothing is showing up in the logs (but nothing appears tobe broken anymore either).
02:28 <@preaction> edit the code?
02:28 <@snapcount> set your log level to debug
02:28 <@snapcount> spectre/workflow will log a lot more info in debug
02:28 < perlm> okay, thansk
02:29 < Radix-wrk> spectre --debug isn't it
02:29 <@preaction> a lot of meaningless crap that may be hard to sort through when there actually IS a problem
02:29 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
02:29 <@snapcount> that's true
02:29 <@snapcount> Radix-wrk: no, I was referring to editing the log.conf
02:30 <@snapcount> running spectre in debug may also garner those messages though
02:30 < PedersenMJ> hey there.
02:30 <@snapcount> I'd have to look at the source
02:30 <@snapcount> hey PedersenMJ 
02:30 <@snapcount> how are the themes coming?
02:31 < PedersenMJ> Working on the readme for the Andreas02 right now, and then posting it.
02:31 < Radix-wrk> cool
02:31 < Radix-wrk> nice work PedersenMJ
02:31 < perlm> spectre --debug doesn't write to the log file, but to either STOUT or STDERR
02:31 <@snapcount> rock on man
02:31 < Radix-wrk> perlm: true
02:31 <@snapcount> perlm: yes, I was referring to the information provided though
02:32 < PedersenMJ> This one will make a good theme for something on the lines of a "planet webgui", definitely.
02:32 <@snapcount> I think that's what radix was getting at as well
02:32 <@snapcount> I can't wait to see it
02:32 <@snapcount> maybe you could apply it to a demo real quick so I can check it out?
02:32 <@snapcount> when you're done of course
02:33 < PedersenMJ> Absolutely. I did have a demo of it the other night. I just haven't been able to work this weekend, due to continuing my epic move.
02:37 < perlm> Wow, the problem was my install was so stable there was never anything to LOG.  There wasn't anything wrong with the logger.  Cool
02:37 < Radix-wrk> heh.. if only every problem was that easy
02:41 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. looks like the SHA-1/MD5 encryption algorithms has been cracked.
02:41 <@preaction> "cracked"?
02:41 < Radix-wrk> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/20/1936257&from=rss
02:41 < Radix-wrk> Chinese Professor has supposedly done it
02:41 <@preaction> it's not encryption, it's hashing
02:42 < Radix-wrk> true
02:43 < Radix-wrk> both apache and webgui use md5 hashing tho
02:44 <@preaction> well, a long while ago it was recommended for SSL connections to use RSA 2048
02:47 <@preaction> i call shenanigans, the article keeps talking about "Cracking" and "decrypting" a hashing algorithm
02:47 < Radix-wrk> Reading the /. comments - seems like this occurred sometime early last year, so the crypto community has known about it for a while
02:53 <@snapcount> preaction: is your pb username preaction as well?
02:54 <@snapcount> or is it dbell?
02:54 < Radix-wrk> DBell isn't it?
02:54 <@preaction> DBell
02:55 <@preaction> though I should probably alias to "preaction"
02:55 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169426991_711/
02:55 < PedersenMJ> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169426991_711/andreas02/readme
02:55 < PedersenMJ> Now to post it under the contrib.
02:56 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: Congratulations Doug! http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/pbwg-meet-doug-bell
02:56 < Radix-wrk> Awesome PedersenMJ 
02:57 < PedersenMJ> Reload it a couple of times, and read what's next to that graphic.
02:57 < PedersenMJ> Each time you reload.
02:59 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: very nicely done
02:59 < PedersenMJ> Thank you. I'm happy with the results. Still very customizable, and without having to put in a lot of effort by the user.
03:01 <@snapcount> that's the whole idea of WebGUI... contributions like this hammer the point home
03:03 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/user_contributions/user_contributions/packages/theme-andreas02
03:03 < PedersenMJ> There, that one's done.
03:04 < PedersenMJ> And say another thanks to Roy. Since you added the "how to install a package" wiki page, I'm just linking to it :)
03:05 <@snapcount> it's just a start.... probably lots of room for improvement
03:05 <@snapcount> alrighty... taking the chica out to dinner... ttyl guys
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03:05 < PedersenMJ> Heck, if it does get improved, then I'll get the benefit of it just by having linked :)
03:06 < PedersenMJ> This theme was a lot to get done properly. Wound up learning a fair amount about webgui and templating. It was nice :)
03:06 < PedersenMJ> Now, has anybody considered setting up a VM for use with the WRE?
03:07 < Radix-wrk> I've been using vmware with wre for a while
03:07 < PedersenMJ> I'm thinking about making a vmware instance, and adding *it* to the contribs, which has a bare minimum install of a Linux distro, and putting the WRE in it.
03:08 < Radix-wrk> not a bad idea really.. though it'd be pretty huge
03:08 < Radix-wrk> even a basic vmware setup takes up a fair chunk of disk space
03:09 < PedersenMJ> Maybe. Compress it with either zip -9 or bzip2, and it shouldn't be so bad.
03:09 < Radix-wrk> vmware have their 'virtual appliances' section tho.. would be good to add a webgui site to that if it isn't there already
03:09 < PedersenMJ> Nope, I'm not talking about providing vmware, just the virtual machine files.
03:09 < PedersenMJ> That's what I was thinking of, was the virtual appliance aspect.
03:11 < PedersenMJ> Nope, nothing there. I think I'll hold off until the next rel of webgui, though, and then make it, since I can do pretty small debian installations.
03:11 < PedersenMJ> And 0.8 WRE will (if I'm remember what Rizen told me correctly) support Debian.
03:12 < Radix-wrk> I used centos 4.3 for our wre install at work - that uses the RHEL4 wre and works pretty well.  Very very simple to install as you effectively install nothing but the base system
03:13 < PedersenMJ> Yep. The only reason I'm thinking of Debian instead is because I think I can do even smaller. I have VMs running under vmware server that have a whole gig of hd space, and are running a bunch of stuff.
03:18 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/campaigns/people
03:19 < PedersenMJ> JT's picture... He looks so pissed off right there :)
03:26 < perlm> How do I unarchive a Collarboration System Post?
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04:33 < PedersenMJ> Wow, wonder if all the departures are something I said?
04:34 < Radix-wrk> Well.. I wasn't going to comment about the body odour, but...
04:35 < PedersenMJ> Aww, dang it, I knew I shouldn't have tried that new "decaying skunk" scented one.
04:36 < Radix-wrk> heh.. my sister has a scent called 'Duck's bum' - no kidding.
04:36 < Radix-wrk> just for show tho ;)
04:37 < Radix-wrk> but i get a chuckle every time I see it
04:37 < PedersenMJ> Well, unless there's a suitor after her that she wants to throw off the trail, so to speak.
04:37 < Radix-wrk> perfect for those kind of occasions I'm sure ;)
04:43 < PedersenMJ> Screw it, I'm upgrading wg on my sites to 7.3.5 right now. It's good enough for my needs :)
04:44 < PedersenMJ> And, luckily enough, I don't mind completely destroying old databases.
04:47 < PedersenMJ> Curious.... If I put in an invalid login, I get the webgui default style.
04:47 < PedersenMJ> On a site which I have, supposedly, customized.
04:48 < Radix-wrk> that's normal
04:49 < Radix-wrk> there's a default style setting you need to set in settings I think it is
04:49 < PedersenMJ> Aha, okay. Now to find that.
04:50 < PedersenMJ> That was it. Thank you.
04:50 < PedersenMJ> Settings/UI
04:50 < Radix-wrk> User Function Style
04:50 < PedersenMJ> Correct.
04:51 < PedersenMJ> Rather, confirmed. That's a point I'm going to have to put into my own docs for the next theme.
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05:38 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: frank?
05:39 < PedersenMJ> bob
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05:39 < PedersenMJ> Hey, perlDreamer, some good news: http://www.plainblack.com/user_contributions/user_contributions/packages/theme-andreas02
05:45 <+perlDreamer> I saw your upload. Nice work.
05:45 <+perlDreamer> People didn't like my template tools quite as much
05:45 <@snapcount> I liked it
05:45 < PedersenMJ> Which template tools?
05:45 <@snapcount> his importer/exporter
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Where is it? I didn't even know it had been uploaded.
05:46 <+perlDreamer> Never mind me, I just get grumpy after being thrown up on.
05:47 <@snapcount> ahh... the joys of being a daddy
05:47 < PedersenMJ> Well, if that happened, I hope it was a two year old having a bad meal. Outside of that, I don't think I'd handle it well. And, even if it was that, I dunno that I'd handle it well.
05:48 <+perlDreamer> It was a five year old in a wave pool, so pretty good guess!
05:48 <@snapcount> http://www.plainblack.com/user_contributions/user_contributions/miscellaneous/template-import-and-export-utility-for-webgui-7.3#67s1xKEeGw_ZujD9VizRZA
05:48 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I wouldn't handle that well at all :)
05:48 <+perlDreamer> so what's been shakin' since I've been offline?
05:50 < PedersenMJ> Well, not much for me. I just did that upload about an hour ago. Installed latest rev of webgui, and updated my sites with a nice clean install. And threw my back out again, I think. Lots of moving this weekend. Hopefully, next weekend is the end of moving out of the old place.
05:50 <@snapcount> I was shakin a bit
05:50 <@snapcount> moving sucks
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Hey, that templateFiler is nice. Thank you.
05:51 < PedersenMJ> I'm not going to be able to use it much with how I use webgui, but I can see potential use for it, definitely.
05:53 <+perlDreamer> I used it to scan all the templates for more potential JS/HTML escaping bugs.
05:53 <+perlDreamer> It's easier to do that with grep and perl than eyeing line by line
05:53 <@snapcount> hey don't feel bad perlDreamer, no one liked my network tools api either
05:53 < PedersenMJ> Ah, excellent. Hell yes it is :)
05:54 <@snapcount> I thought for sure someone would turn it into the portscan or service monitor wobject
05:54 <+perlDreamer> blessed are the toolmakers
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Hey, roy, those network tools: When they open their socket, how long does the timeout last before it gives up?
05:55 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: have you seen this bug
05:55 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/testenvironment.pl-do-not-tests-all-modules#gB6g7poAF_5RpY7fbxY3Jw
05:55 <+perlDreamer> perlbot: shorten it
05:55 < PedersenMJ> Basically, I've got a problem at work that I need to be notified if it occurs. I want to know if a connection fails to be made within 2 seconds.
05:55 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://xrl.us/ucth
05:55 <+perlDreamer> perlbot help
05:55 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
05:56 <+perlDreamer> ah
05:57 <@snapcount> I've seen it now
05:57 <+perlDreamer> any idea why they might have been removed?
05:57 <+perlDreamer> because they used to be in there
05:57 <+perlDreamer> I tracked it down via SVN::Web
05:58 <@snapcount> what's up?
05:58 <@snapcount> who took it out?
05:58 <+perlDreamer> _the don_
05:59 <+perlDreamer> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI%20SVN/revision/?rev=3371
06:02 <@snapcount> ping pong
06:08 <@snapcount> I dunno why he did
06:10 <+perlDreamer> you think it's safe to put it back in?
06:10 <+perlDreamer> maybe I'll email him tomorrow
06:13 <@snapcount> I wouldn't until you ask him
06:13 <@snapcount> he probably has a reason for doing it
06:14 <+perlDreamer> okay
06:14 <+perlDreamer> wife time.
06:14 <+perlDreamer> Catch y'all tomorrow
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06:43 < PedersenMJ> and I'm off to bed as well. l8r!
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16:26 <@preaction> a little ginger in your coffee helps the wake-up process, and cinnamon makes it taste good.
16:26 <@preaction> that is all.
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16:35 <@preaction> another day, another dollar, another chunk out of a finite and rapidly passing life
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17:39  * PedersenMJ waves.
17:39 <@preaction> snapcount: you here?
17:40 <@snapcount> no
17:40 <@snapcount> this is a recording
17:40 <@snapcount> crap
17:40 <@snapcount> not signed on skype right?
17:40 <@preaction> snapcount: exactly, but for a different reason
17:40 <@snapcount> uhh
17:41 <@snapcount> is it the end of the world as we know it and you feel fine?
17:41 <@preaction> not, we're not feeling fine
17:41 <@preaction> we are definately not doing that
17:53 < PedersenMJ> Hey, JT, the theme I uploaded last night could make for an excellent planetwebgui.com/org site.
17:53 <@rizen> i said that somebody should create a planet.webgui.org site
17:54 <@rizen> not that i was interested in doing it =)
17:55 < PedersenMJ> You're correct, but if somebody does, that theme could do well. I don't think I have the skills or the time to do it well, else I would.
18:10 <@preaction> we should register webgui with freenode, so we can get user@projects/webgui user cloaks
18:11 < ckotil> good idea
18:12 < diakopter> godaddy offers free SSL certs for open source projects - https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/ssl/ssl_opensource.asp
18:12 <@preaction> http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml <- for whomever wants to do that
18:33 < ckotil> when using WebGUI::VersionTag->getWorking($session);
18:33 < ckotil> $versionTag->commit;
18:33 < ckotil> does it by pass the approval step?
18:36 < ckotil> ah... requestCommit(); i bet thats what i want
18:42 < ckotil> yup
18:47 < xdanger> is it nasty to answer a client with "pebkac" in the end ;)
18:47 <+MrHairgrease> yes
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> just assign him id 10t
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> =)
18:48 < xdanger> their "error reports" are "This doesn't work"
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> well
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> all i can say is
18:48 <+MrHairgrease> good luck =)
18:49 < xdanger> this time... there was an attached email that said "Saving the budjet data for june doesn't work"
18:49 < xdanger> It's imposible for some of the colums to work and some not...
18:50 < xdanger> if they work in different months...
18:50 < xdanger> I hate that project...
18:50 < xdanger> worst deal ever...
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19:24 <+perlDreamer> rizen: bug consult?
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19:36 < ckotil> How can I set commit w/ approval to only concern itself with a specific asset(s)? then the rest of the site be commit w/out approval ?
19:37 < perlm> hack the commit asset?
19:37 < ckotil> that could work.
19:38 < ckotil> The reason i want to do this is so that everytime i make an edit to the site , everyone on the approve list doesnt recieve an email about the changes ive made
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19:44 < ckotil> so i guess the best way would be to setup the site to do commit w/out approval and hten to hack the commit asset so that it does commit w/ approval for the folder assets I need that approval on.
19:45 <+perlDreamer> it would be nice if the commit workflow setting were more granular
19:45 < ckotil> exactly.
19:45  * perlDreamer whispers the magic incantation "R F E"
19:46 < ckotil> thats a PIA. ive yet to have an rfe make it into the code
19:47 < ckotil> hrmm... since im using requestCOmmit(); it should require approval even if the workflow is set to commit w/out approval?
19:48 < ckotil> im calling requestCommit() from a utility script
19:48 <+perlDreamer> I don't know.  I'm not too familiar with the whole version control API
19:48 < ckotil> k
19:49  * ckotil is about to find out
19:49 <+MrHairgrease> ckotil: I think not
19:49 <+MrHairgrease> not sure though
19:49 < ckotil> oh yeah. i think it worked like i wanted ;]
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19:55 < ckotil> mmmm ok im gonna use set(name, workflowID) and tell it to use my workflow that has commit w/ approval
19:55 < ckotil> COOL.
19:56 <+perlDreamer> the update scripts do commits without workflows by calling commit directly, instead of requestCommit
19:57 <+perlDreamer> but all the sites I've used it on were set for commit w/o approval anyway...
19:57 <+perlDreamer> hm
19:58 < ckotil> ya i need approval
19:58 < ckotil> so when i had the site's default workflow set to commit w/ approval. everything worked fine. BUT i dont want everyone to be notified via email about each change ive made
19:58 < ckotil> so i turned set it back to commit w/out approval
19:59 < ckotil> and ill jsut attach the commit w/ approval workflow to the version tag thats created and commited in my utility script.
19:59 < ckotil> lunchtime.
19:59 <@preaction> some assets have a way to set their own approval workflow
19:59 <@preaction> the wiki, cs, and calendar
19:59 < ckotil> thats a nice feature. now if they all did it.
19:59 < ckotil> im using the folder asset
19:59 <@preaction> rather, wikipage, post, and event
20:00 <@preaction> you could subclass the folder asset and add it
20:00 <+perlDreamer> it's hard to really subclass assets
20:00 < ckotil> that flew way over my head.
20:00 <@preaction> then update all your classnames in the "assets" table to use your new classname (which, after deleting cache, should just work)
20:00 < ckotil> heh
20:00 <+perlDreamer> you have to reimplement all the template methods
20:01 <@preaction> perlDreamer: pshaw how do you mean?
20:01 <@preaction> you mean like www_view and the like?
20:01 <+perlDreamer> yup
20:01 <@preaction> no, i've made assets w/o www_view
20:01 <@preaction> recently
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20:02 <+perlDreamer> but if your subclassed assets wants to extend any www_ method, it has to be completely redone
20:02 <@preaction> well yeah, but his doesn't
20:02 <+perlDreamer> as long as you work in that subset, then, it's not so hard to subclass assets
20:04 <@preaction> all he'd have to do is add two methods, getApprovalWorkflow and ... one other
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20:09 <@rizen> back now dreamer
20:09 <@rizen> what can i do for you
20:15 < PedersenMJ> Well, I know something you *can* do for him, that he'd appreciate, definitely: A 25% raise ;)
20:16 <@rizen> pd doesn't work for me
20:16 <@rizen> so i can give him a raise
20:16 <@rizen> but 25% of zero
20:16 <@rizen> is still zero
20:17 < PedersenMJ> Well, then, why stop at 25%? Let's make it an 100% raise ;)
20:18 <@rizen> good idea
20:18 <@rizen> perldreamer, you now have a 250000% raise
20:18 <@rizen> on your $0 salary for not working for me
20:19 <+perlDreamer> rizen: is this a bug: http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/testenvironment.pl-do-not-tests-all-modules#gB6g7poAF_5RpY7fbxY3Jw ?
20:20  * perlDreamer was afk for a bit, examining pustulent tonsils
20:21 <+perlDreamer> more info: the module checks were removed in this rev https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI%20SVN/revision/?rev=3371
20:21 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot: shorten it
20:21 < gooeybot> perlDreamer: huh?
20:21 <+perlDreamer> perlbot shorten it
20:21 < perlbot> Shortened URL: http://snipurl.com/1825g
20:21 <@rizen> crap
20:22 <@rizen> they weren't supposed to be removed
20:22 <+perlDreamer> I'll blow them back in
20:22 <+perlDreamer> going on week 3 with no $dayJob projects
20:22 <@rizen> wow
20:23 <@rizen> your $dayjob must make a lot of money when they do have you doing something
20:23 <@rizen> in order to account for all the downtime they give you
20:23 <+perlDreamer> it's sheer incompetence
20:23 <+perlDreamer> last year Maxim I think Maxim pulled in over $2e9
20:24 <+perlDreamer> and when projects are rated, they have to pull in $1e6/man month of project effort in order to be considered
20:24 <+perlDreamer> the ratio is called "The Rodent" Return on DEsigNer Time
20:26 <@rizen> hmm..well i hope if plain black ever becomes a bn $$ company, we don't have such problems
20:30 <+perlDreamer> you have the same problem, just at a lower scale.
20:30 <+perlDreamer> no projects means reduced income
20:30 <+perlDreamer> it's just that we have people who are supposed to be dedicated to going out to customers and getting info for creating new projects
20:31 <+perlDreamer> and Maxim isn't smart enough to assign us to R&D projects in our downtime
20:31 <+perlDreamer> It's a management problem
20:31 <@preaction> their loss is webgui's gain
20:31 <+perlDreamer> anyhow, I fixed the bug, so time to head into the office
20:31 <+perlDreamer> it's always fun to hack :)
20:31 <+perlDreamer> bbl
20:31 <@rizen> we're glad to have you
20:31 <@rizen> =)
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21:01  * ckotil hugs webgui
21:02 <@rizen> whoa
21:02 <@rizen> getting a little fresh with webgui are we?
21:02 < ckotil> hell yeah i am
21:03 <@rizen> what if webgui's not into that sort of public display of affection?
21:03 < ckotil> jali time
21:03 < ckotil> jail*
21:05 < diakopter> webgui is still jailbait
21:05 < diakopter> ;)
21:05 <@rizen> the good news is that in content management system years WebGUI is over 21
21:05 <@rizen> so you're safe
21:05 <@rizen> =)
21:06 <@rizen> cms years are like dog years
21:06 < ckotil> yeah bc 15 will get you 20.
21:06 < ckotil> 15 yrs old that is
21:06 < diakopter> what about web app framework years
21:06 < diakopter> or even perl web app framework years
21:06 <@rizen> i'm pretty sure that webgui likes pda
21:06 < diakopter> it's ancient!
21:06 <@rizen> so you're ok
21:08  * diakopter begins a WebGUI-anorexic port on Jifty.
21:15 <@rizen> huh?
21:15 < ckotil> i get it. youngins like to purge
21:16 < ckotil> or just not eat entirely
21:18 <@snapcount> so Doug and I have come up with another asset that webgui needs
21:19 <@rizen> a texas holdem asset?
21:19 <@snapcount> that would be sweet
21:19 <@snapcount> but no
21:19 <@snapcount> I'm not sure what you would call it
21:19 <@rizen> a crash bandicoot asset
21:19 <@rizen> or my personal favorite, a guitar hero asset
21:20 <@snapcount> but basically it's a navigation asset that can filter on classnames and other asset properties
21:20 <@snapcount> through a spiffy UI
21:20 <@snapcount> kind of like sql report
21:20 <@snapcount> without the sql
21:20 <@rizen> so why did you tack the "and I" to your statement
21:20 <@rizen> he brought that idea up last week by himeself
21:20 <@rizen> are you trying to take credit
21:20 <@rizen> ??
21:21 <@snapcount> well, we talked about it today
21:21 <@snapcount> and it turns out I had the same idea
21:21 <@rizen> you plagerizing bastard
21:21 <@snapcount> we both got it at about the same time from the same support board post
21:21 <@rizen> guido...take care of him
21:21 <@snapcount> his idea is actually better
21:21 <@snapcount> in all the stuff it  could do
21:22 <@snapcount> mine was basically just a modified nav asset
21:22 <@snapcount> so what do you think of it rizen?
21:22 <@rizen> i think that doug is brilliant and you're a moron
21:22 <@rizen> idea stealer
21:23 <@rizen> band wagon jumper
21:23 <@rizen> apple polisher
21:23 <@snapcount> you know what they say
21:23 <@rizen> brown noser
21:23 <@snapcount> there are no new ideas
21:23 < PedersenMJ> It never fails to amaze me at just how restrained JT is in expressing his emotions about other people :)
21:23 <@snapcount> at least that's what m$ says
21:23 <+MrHairgrease> paraphraser!
21:23 <@rizen> i think it's a good idea for an asset as long as it doesn't cause more problems than it solves
21:24 <@snapcount> he is especially fond of me, if you can't tell
21:24 <@rizen> the advantage is that people stop using the sql report to get them a list of the 10 most recent cs posts about x
21:24 < PedersenMJ> Oh, it shows, believe me. Why, I wouldn't be surprised to find that he is the *only* one who rated your network tools :)
21:25 <@rizen> the disadvantage is that unless it's written to take into account varying specialty cases...it will perform slowly and bring sites to their knees
21:25 < ckotil> could i use the sqlreport tool to return a list of the X most recently edited assets? or past version tags from a certain user?
21:25 <@rizen> in other words, it can't use a one size fits all querying mechanism
21:26 <@snapcount> rizen: I thought it would use varying calls to getLineage
21:26 <@rizen> based upon what the user is asking for, it needs to optimize it's query (or queries) in different ways
21:26 <@snapcount> but perhaps that's what you are saying is bad
21:26 <@rizen> see...that's exactly what's wrong
21:26 <@rizen> it can't always rely upon that
21:26 <@rizen> or you're going to kill someone's web server
21:27 <@snapcount> murder death kill
21:27 <@rizen> getLineage is the 20 pound sledge hammer
21:27 <@rizen> when sometimes what you need is a 5mm socket 
21:28 <@snapcount> ckotil: don't see any reason why you couldn't
21:28 < ckotil> k
21:28 <@snapcount> the sql might be a little hairy
21:28 < ckotil> i just used assetLineage::promote in my utility script. worked like a charm, and thats what brought me hugging webgui
21:29 <@snapcount> heh
21:29 <@snapcount> api++
21:29 < ckotil> ah, thats fine, i have sql guru's at my displosal
21:31 <@snapcount> so last night I was looking at the workflow code to see how I could merge chains processing into it and basically it would suck
21:32 <@rizen> i think that's where you are going wrong
21:32 <@rizen> you shouldn't merge chains into workflow
21:32 <@rizen> chains should become the webgui flow control 
21:33 <@rizen> and then we add a synchronous option to webgui workflow
21:34 <@rizen> chains isn't interesting at the workflow level
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21:34 <@snapcount> Iunf
21:34 <@rizen> it's too low level to be interesting there
21:35 <@snapcount> last thing I got was add sync workflows
21:35 <@snapcount> did i miss another stmt in there
21:35 <@rizen> chains isn't interesting at the workflow level
21:35 <@rizen> it's too low level to be interesting there
21:36 <@snapcount> you think it's too complicated / unnecessary?
21:36 <@rizen> i think it's too limiting
21:36 <@snapcount> wow
21:36 <@rizen> the fact that you're putting the conditionals that it's capable into the user interface
21:36 <@rizen> limits what you can do with it
21:37 <@rizen> the workflow engine assumes nothing
21:37 <@rizen> except that you're going to execute code
21:37 <@rizen> that's where it's power lies
21:37 <@rizen> it can litterally do anything
21:37 <@snapcount> hmm
21:37 <@rizen> whereas the limits that you've put into it
21:37 <@rizen> with the conditions
21:38 <@rizen> are perfect for flow control at the url dispatch level
21:38 <@rizen> at that level
21:38 <@rizen> you just have a few simple things going on
21:38 <@rizen> should it do this
21:38 <@rizen> should it do that
21:38 <@rizen> it did that
21:38 <@rizen> but nothing came back
21:38 <@rizen> so now let's do this
21:39 <@rizen> chains is a great dispatcher
21:42 <@rizen> if i may be so bold, i think the problem you're having getting your head around this is that chains is your first big baby and as such you want it to be implemented as is, as widely as possible
21:42 <@rizen> you don't look at it like a prototype of trying out ideas
21:42 <@rizen> you're looking at it as this is a finished working product
21:42 <@rizen> and how dare i question where it should go in the system
21:43 <@snapcount> no no, that's not it
21:43 <@rizen> the reason i think that is because it's exactly how i was when i first started doing big ideas
21:43 <@snapcount> there is an attachment
21:43 <@snapcount> but it's not as great as my respect for what you know
21:43 <@snapcount> I'm just not sure you understand everything chains can do as written now
21:44 <@rizen> you demo'd it for me while i was sitting right there
21:44 <@rizen> i know what it can do
21:44 <@snapcount> but when you spoke to limitations
21:44 <@snapcount> I don't see those
21:44 <@rizen> it's simple mechanics
21:45 <@rizen> the more parameters you add to a system the more contrained you become from those parameters
21:45 <@rizen> you assume that there is a condition to be met
21:45 <@rizen> or rather chains does
21:45 <@rizen> what if there isn't what if it's just do this work
21:45 <@rizen> no conditions
21:46 <@snapcount> I see what you're saying
21:46 <@rizen> also, chains assumes that the conditions must match true/false values
21:46 <@rizen> or your equivalents of them
21:46 <@rizen> with the workflow engine
21:46 <@rizen> it assumes nothing
21:46 <@rizen> just that you want to execute some code
21:47 <@rizen> therefore, the developer writing plugins for it
21:47 <@rizen> can add conditions if needed
21:47 <@rizen> and those conditions can be hierarchical
21:47 <@rizen> boolean
21:47 <@rizen> object oriented
21:47 <@rizen> an entire state machine
21:48 <@rizen> the only thing that the workflow engine is missing is that it can't currently run things synchronously
21:48 <@rizen> and i can add that in about 10 lines of code
21:48 <@rizen> and one database field
21:48 <@rizen> thereby when a workflow is triggered
21:48  * diakopter just now realizes what the term "brown noser" implies
21:48 <@rizen> if synchronous
21:48 <@rizen> execute the entire workflow at trigger time
21:58 < ckotil> Can I be notified if a user decideds to not approve a commit?
21:59 <@rizen> yes
21:59 <@rizen> commit with approval notifies you either way by default
21:59 < ckotil> i used requestCommit();
22:00 <@rizen> right, but what workflow is that running
22:00 < ckotil> and im using the default commit w/out approval workflow
22:00 <@rizen> that's what notifies you
22:00 <@rizen> well since there is no approval
22:00 <@rizen> what notification would you need
22:00 <@rizen> it can't be not approved
22:00 < ckotil> requestCommit() is running the default commit w/ approval
22:00 <@rizen> right
22:00 <@rizen> if you're programming a trigger
22:00 < ckotil> I instruct it to, with set()
22:00 <@rizen> then you need to set which workflow you want to run
22:00 < ckotil> i did that.
22:01 < ckotil> commit w/ approval
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22:01 <@rizen> then what's the problem?
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22:02 < ckotil> the problem is that when we deny the approval we do not recieve any notification that its been denied
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22:03 <@rizen> then you have something configured wrong
22:03 <@rizen> cuz it works
22:03 < ckotil> ok
22:03 <@rizen> lots of our clients use it
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22:03 < ckotil> ill recheck.
22:04 <@rizen> i would be getting lots of complaints in my ear
22:04 <+perlDreamer> hey!  my commit flows just stopped working
22:04 < ckotil> im migrating this over to our production server
22:04 <+perlDreamer> what's up with that?
22:04 < ckotil> so im pry overlooking something
22:04 <@rizen> here's something
22:04 <@rizen> who is actually doing the commit
22:05 < ckotil> the utility script
22:05 <@rizen> what user is in the session at the time of the commit
22:05 <@rizen> and what is the email address of that user
22:05 <@rizen> by default your session is the visitor user
22:05 < ckotil> our support servicve desk
22:05 <@rizen> so if you're notifying committer
22:05 < ckotil> yeah, we define a user.
22:05 <@rizen> and committer is visitor
22:06 <@rizen> ok...was just throwing that out there
22:06 <+perlDreamer> does the support service desk get WebGUI emails, like ever?
22:06 <@rizen> how about not 'like' ever, but just actually ever
22:07 <@rizen> colin lpm = 1
22:07 <+perlDreamer> say what, rizen?
22:07 <@rizen> in a former life i used to work at places that had lots of high school and college kids as employees
22:08 <@rizen> one of my favorite things to do was to measure their LPM
22:08 <@rizen> 'Likes' Per Minute
22:08 <@rizen> It's so like groady,  like totally
22:08 <@rizen> do you like know what i mean
22:08 <+perlDreamer> you should build that into gooeybot
22:08 <@rizen> it's so like fashionable to be like dressing like jennifer lopez
22:09 <@rizen> like do you know what i mean
22:09 <+perlDreamer> way
22:10 < ckotil> im gonna submit a fund a feature. and i want a cheap quote ;]
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22:10 <@rizen> while i thought that it was great that kids were adopting the concept of simile into their language, i always thought metaphor was a more creative way to go
22:10 <@rizen> =)
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22:18 <@snapcount> rizen: does spectre use the db to determine how many wf instances it's processing or does it maintain that state internally?
22:19 <@rizen> in memory
22:19 <@snapcount> so, having another instance of spectre running on a second server in a load balanced environment would actually allow more work to be done quicker
22:20 <@snapcount> I'm guessing that's not by accident =)
22:21 <@rizen> no
22:21 <@rizen> you'd never want to do that
22:21 <@rizen> spectre is the governor
22:21 <@rizen> you only want one governor
22:22 <@rizen> however, you can have as many workers as you want
22:22 <@rizen> therefore if you have multiple webgui servers set up load balanced
22:22 <@rizen> spectre can use all of them as workers
22:22 <@rizen> thusly dividing the workload up
22:22 <@rizen> spectre doesn't do any work
22:22 <@rizen> it just manages stuff
22:22 <@snapcount> ok that makes sense
22:23 <@rizen> so having multiple spectres running doesn't get you anything
22:25 <@snapcount> so the ip sprayer (or whatever is dividing requests) is actually what spreads the workflow load as well
22:26 <@snapcount> so you can safely bump max workers up each time you add a server to the cluster, assuming the load is distributed evenly
22:28 <@rizen> yup 
22:28 <@rizen> and yup
22:29 <@rizen> although technically you won't have to bump max workers up
22:29 <@rizen> the tasks will be completing quicker
22:29 <@rizen> so the work will get done faster anyway
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23:53 < PedersenMJ> Quick question about the wiki functions? Can we attach arbitrary files to a wiki entry yet?
23:54 <@rizen> no
23:54 <@rizen> it was supposed to be able to do that, but i ran out of time to implement it before the 7.3 deadline
23:54 <@rizen> it will be there in 7.4
--- Day changed Tue Jan 23 2007
00:01 < PedersenMJ> Ahh, too bad. Can't convert everything to wg, yet. Soon though, from the sounds of it.
00:06 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm, tell me how stupid this idea is, please, before I try and submit an RFE for it: Make the help files into a wiki section.
00:15 <+perlRunner> The help files are a little more than documentation.
00:15 <+perlRunner> Since they live inside code, it also allows us to use the same docs for tooltips
00:15 <+perlRunner> and eventually the template variable editor
00:15 <+perlRunner> you'd have to have some very special markup in order to do that with wiki-style docs
00:17 <+perlRunner> now, things that were pure HOWTOs would be great to do that way
00:28 <+perlRunner> snapcount:  remember that funny display bug you say with style03?  I'm seeing it now.  But it's on Mozilla 1.4
00:29 <@snapcount> in the demo?
00:29 <@snapcount> on your dev instance?
00:29 <@snapcount> which
00:29 <+perlRunner> no, on a site that was recently installed
00:30 <+perlRunner> www.32ford.com
00:30 <@snapcount> when it happened to me, it was because in true dumbass fashion, I somehow removed the FileUrl macro from the config file
00:30 <+perlRunner> I'll check that out
00:30 <@snapcount> anyone want to help me troubleshoot a wG 6.8 calendar problem
00:31 <+perlRunner> 6.8?
00:31 <@snapcount> yeah
00:31 <+perlRunner> I'll have to download it
00:31 <+perlRunner> give me a few minutes
00:31 <@snapcount> I'm stumped
00:32 <+perlRunner> this site has file url enabled
00:32 <+perlRunner> which 6.8?
00:35 <@snapcount> 6.8.8
00:36 <+perlRunner> okay, got it
00:36 <+perlRunner> what next?
00:37 <+perlRunner> snapcount: ping
00:37 <@snapcount> sorry
00:37 <@snapcount> the problem is that an event is being displayed and it shouldn't
00:37 <@snapcount> b/c of start/end date
00:38 <@snapcount> So if you set the start date to yesterday and the end date to today
00:38 <@snapcount> with a time sometime this morning
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00:38 <@snapcount> oh my freaking god
00:38 <@snapcount> thanks for the help
00:39 <@snapcount> got it
00:39  * snapcount hangs his head in shame
00:39 <@snapcount> un freaking believable
00:39 <@snapcount> anyone care to guess whats wrong?
00:39 <@snapcount> come on... throw me a guess
00:40 <+perlRunner> brb
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00:57 <+perlRunner> okay, I'm back
00:57 <+perlRunner> btw, I do that all the time
00:57 <+perlRunner> I have this bug/problem/idea
00:57 <+perlRunner> Just talking about it out load usually helps me see it
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01:01 <+perlRunner> was the problem that the calender wasn't set to "Now"?
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01:22 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: you awake?
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01:42 < cap10morgan> back in 6.6.5, how do I add a new form control to the select list in the add a field form? (i've already put the package in the right dir in lib)
01:43 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
01:43 <+perlDreamer> check lib/WebGUI/Form/FieldType.pm
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01:44 < cap10morgan> hmm... seems to be reading the dir
01:44 < cap10morgan> odd
01:44 <+perlDreamer> restart the server?
01:47 < cap10morgan> yeah, did that
01:48 <+perlDreamer> where do you want to use the field, in the User Profiles?
01:48 < cap10morgan> in data forms
01:48 <+perlDreamer> ah
01:48 <+perlDreamer> in that case the usable forms are hard coded in there
01:49 < cap10morgan> oh, in asset::wobject::dataform?
01:49 <+perlDreamer> yup
01:49 < cap10morgan> ok
01:49 <+perlDreamer> It would be a major benefit if someone patched the v7 of the DataForm to be pluggable
01:54 < cap10morgan> hmm, it appears to just be calling $f-fieldType
01:54 < cap10morgan> er, $f->fieldType
01:54 < cap10morgan> which should just create a standard field type select list, no?
01:54 <+perlDreamer> yup
01:55 <+perlDreamer> I don't have a 6.6.5 to look at, but in "recent" versions it looks like this
01:55 <+perlDreamer>         $f->fieldType(
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 -name=>"type",
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 -label=>$i18n->get(23),
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 -hoverHelp=>$i18n->get('23 description'),
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 -value=>$field{type} || "text",
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 -types=>[qw(dateTime TimeField float zipcode text textarea HTMLArea url date email phone integer yesNo selectList radioList checkList selectBox file)]
01:55 <+perlDreamer>                 );
01:55 <+perlDreamer> where the -types option limits which ones are listed
01:55 < cap10morgan> yeah, not here
01:56 < cap10morgan> it doesn't have that types list
01:56 <+perlDreamer> paste?
01:56 < cap10morgan> $f->fieldType(
01:56 < cap10morgan>                 -name=>"type",
01:56 < cap10morgan>                 -label=>WebGUI::International::get(23,"Asset_DataForm"),
01:56 < cap10morgan>                 -value=>$field{type} || "text"
01:56 < cap10morgan>                 );
01:57 <+perlDreamer> weird
01:57 < cap10morgan> agreed :)
01:57 <+perlDreamer> I don't suppose an upgrade is feasible?
01:57 < cap10morgan> man, i'm workin' on it. that's a whole other project. :)
01:58 <+perlDreamer> I hear you.
01:58 <+perlDreamer> My site is back on 6.2.11
01:58 < cap10morgan> oh fun
01:59 < Radix-wrk> mornin' guys
01:59 <+perlDreamer> hey, radix!
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04:55 <@rizen> holy crap
04:55 <@rizen> it's 9pm on a monday night and there are 16 peeps in here
04:56 <@rizen> well maybe not peeps..
04:56 <@rizen> and maybe not all here
04:56 <@rizen> but still
04:56 <@rizen> impressive
04:56 < PedersenMJ> I'm here.
04:58 < PedersenMJ> and as I speak, the little bit of activity drops to zero...
04:59 <@rizen> what activity
04:59 <@rizen> i was just saying
04:59 <@rizen> that was no activity
05:00 < PedersenMJ> That was more than zero, which means it has to be at least a little bit. Now, little could be tiny (maybe femto-activity?), but it was more than zero.
05:01 <@rizen> heh ok
05:01 <@rizen> methinks i better get back to writing now if i want to get this book out the door
05:06 < Radix-wrk> it may not be 9pm for everyone either
05:06 < Radix-wrk> it's lunchtime now for me :)
05:06 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, for me, it's 10pm.
05:06 <@rizen> yeah, but the world revolves around jt
05:07 <@rizen> and for me it's 9pm
05:07 <@rizen> therefore it's of course 9pm for all of you as well
05:07 < Radix-wrk> that'd be some funny daylight saving :)
05:08 < Radix-wrk> You probably think it's still Monday too don't you ;)
05:09 <@rizen> i know it's monday everywhere in the universe
05:09 <@rizen> you obviously don't understand the whole "world revolves around jt" point
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05:15 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I have a great way of defining time: I'm (obviously) at JT+1.
05:16 <@rizen> that works
05:16 <@rizen> except that you're forgetting something about jt time
05:16 < PedersenMJ> What's really going to suck for the rest of the world is if you move across time zones.
05:16 <@rizen> in jt time
05:16 <@rizen> there are no time zones
05:16 <@rizen> it's the same time everywhere around the world
05:17 <@rizen> the beauty of this system is that there's no time math
05:17 <@rizen> it's 9pm everywhere
05:17 <@rizen> andy everybody works at the same time
05:17 <@rizen> and everybody sleeps at the same time
05:17 <@rizen> no more crazyness
05:18 <@rizen> cuz jt has straightened out everything
05:18 <@rizen> with his commission on weights and measures
05:18 < PedersenMJ> Except for the people on the opposite side of the planet who wanted to roam around in daylight :)
05:18 <@rizen> also...as of now we're going to have to remove am and pm
05:18 < PedersenMJ> But, since they're not paying customers, who cares?
05:18 <@rizen> we're going to move to decimal based time
05:18 <@rizen> everything is metric from now on
05:19 <@rizen> so decree's jt
05:34 < PedersenMJ> Okay... Any good docs I can read on troubleshooting problems inside of webgui and spectre?
05:34 < PedersenMJ> Specifically, I've got a job which is failing to run. And it looks like I've got an issue with some sql that's being run in two of the databases.
05:34 <@rizen> yup, the webgui admin guide
05:36 < PedersenMJ> Isn't that the one you're writing right now?
05:40 <@rizen> yup
05:41 < PedersenMJ> Ah, well, I'll tell you what: I'll do a proofread of it, if you wish.
05:42 <@rizen> heh
05:42 <@rizen> sorry, nobody outside of plain black gets to see it except in printed form
05:42 <@rizen> it wouldn't help you in this case anyway
05:42 <@rizen> because the problem you are experiencing isn't with the workflow engine
05:42 <@rizen> it's with some plugin
05:43 < PedersenMJ> It's always worth a shot to ask. Worst that you're *likely* to do is say no (worst you could do would be track me down, hang me upside down by my toenails, and read windows source code to me until I die, but that's not very *likely*).
05:44 < PedersenMJ> And, actually, it looks like the problem was fixable by simply making a new database, and dropping the old. Since the site was just made yesterday, and not yet begun populating, I'm okay with that.
05:53 < PedersenMJ> Okay, now *this* is weird. I can't create a folder Root/Themes, and there's no messages in webgui.log at all.
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Wait... Can I make and commit an empty folder?
05:54 <@rizen> yes
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Browser caching of the page. My bad.
06:16 < PedersenMJ> Dang, too bad perlRunner isn't here. Anybody have his address, or mind sending a quick email to him for me?
06:17 < PedersenMJ> I had promised to provide some ideas on what would have helped me with the Navigation Template page, and made that page available here: http://dev.icelus.tzo.com/
06:37 < Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, did you know that icelus.tzo.com doesn't work?
06:38 < PedersenMJ> Ummm, yeah, it does. Unless something very very bad has happened (since I've been using it for about 4 years now). Define "doesn't work", please?
06:38 < Radix-wrk> it brings you to an apache index page
06:38 < PedersenMJ> Yes, that's correct.
06:39 < PedersenMJ> It's supposed to.
06:39 < PedersenMJ> http://dev.icelus.tzo.com/ though, will take you to a webgui site.
06:39 < Radix-wrk> fair enough.. long as that's what you were expecting :)
06:39 < PedersenMJ> icelus.tzo.com is pretty much just a placeholder page :)
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Yep, that's exactly what I was expecting. Someday, maybe I'll add in a real site at icelus.tzo.com. However, I've got http://www.nochara.org/ http://www.icelus.org/ and a couple of others hosted there. icelus.tzo.com isn't that important to me.
06:43 < PedersenMJ> The (very) few pages I've set up there (at dev) are skeleton help pages to show perlRunner what I was talking about last week.
06:46 < Radix-wrk> np
06:48 < PedersenMJ> So, I'll ask, since I'm betting you've glanced at them by now: What did you think of them?
06:49 < Radix-wrk> What you've done looks great to me, described it pretty well and easy to understand and follow
06:50 < Radix-wrk> that's the nav help page and the bare bones page
06:50 <@rizen> sux ass
06:50 < PedersenMJ> Yep, and that's all that I've written up so far. If perlRunner wishes, I can write more.
06:50 <@rizen> don't even bother working anymore
06:50 < PedersenMJ> Sweet! A JT dis. Now I know I'm doing well! :)
06:50 <@rizen> hehe
06:51 < Radix-wrk> JT is a programmer tho, he wouldn't be able to even spell documentation without help, let alone explain it in words the average joe could understand ;)
06:51 <@rizen> i m dum
06:51 < Radix-wrk> not at all
06:51 < PedersenMJ> Hey, waitaminnit! I'm not as hardcore as JT, but I'm definitely in the programmer category! Just wish I could get paid for it. Soon, though. Got my own ideas for my own company.
06:53 < PedersenMJ> Used to be really good at translating geekspeak to English. Lately, I've given up, and turned into one of *them*.
06:54 < Radix-wrk> it's hard for someone with so much detailed knowledge about the entire system to be able to describe it in terms the layman can understand tho - the detail gets in the way and you don't see why the user's don't understand something that to you is quite simple
06:55 <@rizen> tell me about it
06:55 < Radix-wrk> which is why JT gets frustrated with us all
06:55 <@rizen> i'm even having trouble writing the technical book
06:55 <@rizen> the admin guid
06:55 <@rizen> cuz it's all too simple as far as i'm concerned
06:55 < Radix-wrk> hehe
06:56 < PedersenMJ> Part of the reason I love my wife: She has a way with being able to tell me that I'm going too complex, and bringing me back to an understandable level for others.
06:56 < Radix-wrk> I know how it is.. and how hard it is.. every software developer has to do it some time
06:57 < PedersenMJ> It's really embarassing when I'm staring at a problem, thinking to myself how much effort it's going to take me to solve it, and she gives me a one sentence solution that will take all of 30 seconds to implement.
06:57 < PedersenMJ> And yes, she's done that to me, on multiple occasions :)
06:57 < Radix-wrk> "Can't see the wood for the trees"
06:57 < PedersenMJ> Yep, that's it *exactly*
06:58 < PedersenMJ> perlbot help
06:58 < perlbot> (fact)::tell (who) about (what)::(what) > (who)::learn (what) as (info)::relearn (fact) as (info)::phone (phone number)::shorten (url)::shorten it::search (module)::docs (module)::perldoc -f (function)::jargon (term)::math::fortune::flip::host (type) (record)::rot13::roll (die)::tempconv (temp)::scramble (foo)::8ball::slap::diss::what time is it::top/bottom (number) karma::geoip (ip)
06:58 < PedersenMJ> gooeybot help
06:58 < Radix-wrk> too many bots in this channel now
06:59 < PedersenMJ> And neither of them does what I want. Ah well, will just have to catch perlRunner when he signs in next time.
07:00 <@rizen> perlbot die
07:00 < perlbot> No thanks
07:00 <@rizen> gooeybot die
07:00 < gooeybot> rizen: sorry...
07:01 <@rizen> perlbot go away
07:01 < perlbot> whatever.
07:01 <@rizen> perlbot you're lame
07:01 <@rizen> perlbot exit
07:01 <@rizen> perlbot shutdown
07:01 <@rizen> dman
07:01 <@rizen> damn
07:01 < PedersenMJ> perlbot diss rizen
07:01 < perlbot> rizen is a lamer!
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07:36 < PedersenMJ> Now, am off to bed guys. Have a good night!
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16:57 < ckotil> http://pastebin.ca/325701  does this look like a hack attempt?
17:23 < ckotil> proxying of other domains should be disabled on default.
17:23 < ckotil> inside http proxy asset
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18:57 <+crythias> (09:57:56) ckotil: http://pastebin.ca/325701  does this look like a hack attempt?
18:57 <+crythias> (10:23:06) ckotil: proxying of other domains should be disabled on default.
18:57 <+crythias> (10:23:11) ckotil: inside http proxy asset
18:58 <+crythias> just repeating it 'cause most of TPTB weren't around (it appears) when the q was asked. (and you received no answer)
19:05 <+perlDreamer> woohoo!  One for the template extract utility!
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19:38 <+perlDreamer> rizen: bug consult?
19:46 <@snapcount> no one talks to rizen until they talk to me first
19:46 <@snapcount> got it
19:46 <+perlDreamer> got it
19:46 <+perlDreamer> you da man
19:46  * snapcount flashes a 9mm
19:46 <@snapcount> the don does not like to be disturbed
19:47 <+perlDreamer> I have the highest respect for the don and his family
19:47 <@snapcount> sorry
19:47 <+perlDreamer> I feel like fixing the unfixable slash/gateway bug
19:47 <@snapcount> I'm teasing JT... kind of a pb inside joke
19:47  * rizen in a godfatherly voice
19:47 <@snapcount> heh
19:47 <@rizen> come kiss my ring
19:48 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: I have an idea for that
19:48 <@rizen> now, what can i do for you
19:48 <+perlDreamer> I want to fix the unfixable slash_gateway bug
19:48 <@snapcount> but I'll let JT just give you the correct solution and save us all some time
19:48 <@rizen> what's the slash gateway bug?
19:48 <+perlDreamer> https://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/slash_gateway-macro#_kYpnNkmhvxspP4bNMoNvw
19:49 <+perlDreamer> There's no way to fix the macro to handle that problem, unless...
19:49 <+perlDreamer> we allow it to take an argument
19:49 <@rizen> that's easily fixed
19:49 <@rizen> yeah
19:49 <@rizen> make it work like the pageurl macro
19:49 <+perlDreamer> so you cool with that
19:49 <@snapcount> heh
19:49 <@snapcount> that was my solution too
19:49 <+perlDreamer> whoa
19:50 <+perlDreamer> maybe I'm getting the hang of this
19:50 <@rizen> i actually thought i did that when i did it to the page url macro
19:50 <@snapcount> either that or have it not tack on the noCache setting but I didn't like that solution
19:50 <@snapcount> that was my backup in case we couldn't allow a parameter for compat reasons
19:50 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'll change it, add tests for it and then close the bug out
19:50 <@snapcount> rock on
19:50 <@rizen> sorry
19:50 <@rizen> it wasn't the page url macro
19:50 <@rizen> it's the extras macro
19:50 <@rizen> that works like that
19:50 <@rizen> but hte page url macro should be updated to work that way too
19:51 <+perlDreamer> okay, I'll do them both
19:51 <+perlDreamer> are we really releasing 7.3.6 as gamma?
19:51 <@rizen> no
19:51 <@rizen> stable
19:51 <@rizen> who said gama
19:51 <@snapcount> yeah who said that
19:52 <+perlDreamer> wait a minute
19:52 <+perlDreamer> I see
19:52 <@snapcount> that's a devil that died with 6.x
19:52 <+perlDreamer> I'm confusing the unmentionable with the stable label
19:52 <+perlDreamer> nm
19:52 <@snapcount> hopefully never to return
19:52 <@snapcount> "Gamma is the same as stable right???"
19:52 <@snapcount> stupid people
19:52 <@snapcount> remember the 5,000 duplicates of that question we used to get
19:53 <@snapcount> 6.x was like living in a POW camp
19:55 <+perlDreamer> Prisoners of WebGUI6
19:55 <+perlDreamer> POW
19:56 <@snapcount> heh
19:56 <@snapcount> https://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/strange-asset-manager-bug
19:56 <+perlDreamer> yeah!
19:56 <@snapcount> this would be a nice one to have fixed by tomorrow too
19:56 <+perlDreamer> do you know what's with that?
19:56 <@snapcount> it was on my wish list for 7.3 stable
19:56 <@snapcount> at the very very bottom
19:56 <@snapcount> well, it's not really a bug but it is
19:56 <+perlDreamer> you know what it is?
19:57 <@snapcount> it's more of a "WebGUI does this, but sane humans would expect something else"
19:57 <@snapcount> wait a minute
19:58 <@snapcount> that's not the one I meant to post a link too
19:58 <@snapcount> wtf
19:58 <@rizen> that's not a bug
19:58 <@rizen> you can go ahead and close it
19:58 <@snapcount> ahh crap
19:58 <+perlDreamer> why isn't it a bug, don?
19:58 <@snapcount> yeah it is
19:58 <@rizen> if someone wants it to work differently, they can file an rfe
19:58 <@snapcount> that's what I meant to post
19:59 <@rizen> it's not a bug because what they're looking at is not the asset manager
19:59 <@rizen> it's the inline view
19:59 <@rizen> a folder
19:59 <@rizen> with the default failsafe style attached
19:59 <@rizen> which is what all folders under the import node get
19:59 <+perlDreamer> There's an RFE to change that already, isn't there.  From knowmad?
19:59 <@rizen> perhaps
20:00 <@rizen> the only thing i can think to do is make www_view = www_manageAssets if we're under the lineage of the import node
20:00 <@rizen> but i think that would break some stuff
20:00 <@snapcount> instead of displaying the folder after editing a template, what they want is to be returned to the page they were on
20:01 <@rizen> no matter what they want
20:01 <@rizen> this is not a bug
20:01 <@rizen> it's an rfe
20:01 <@snapcount> yeah you're right
20:01 <@rizen> therefore close it
20:01 <@rizen> or move it
20:01 <@rizen> i don't care which
20:02 <@snapcount> I'll put all my karma into it perlDreamer if you want to hash out what the RFE is
20:02 <+perlDreamer> got it!
20:02 <@snapcount> b/c it's a bug to a user and a newb which makes WebGUI seem broken to them
20:02 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/revisions-listing---edit-instead-of-view-for-templates#sJSn_yaDTdiYQkynkAENjg
20:02 <@snapcount> and I don't like that
20:02 <@rizen> all put all my karma into other rfe's to make sure it never reaches the top
20:02 <@rizen> =)
20:02 <+perlDreamer> it's got a karma rank of 410
20:02 <@snapcount> what?!
20:02 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:03 <@snapcount> oh... that's not the factor
20:03 <@snapcount> I thought that was the karma factor
20:03 <+perlDreamer> no, the rank
20:03 <@rizen> that's not the same thing pd
20:03 <@rizen> there he's talking about the revisions listing
20:03 <@rizen> not the asset manager
20:03 <@snapcount> in order to assign a karma rank we need to know how we want to fix it
20:03 <@snapcount> so we can estimate time to do so
20:04 <+perlDreamer> jt, you're right.  but it seems to me to be an extension of the same concept.
20:04 <@snapcount> the use case for most people I think is this:
20:04 <@rizen> not even close
20:04 <+perlDreamer> It makes little sense to "view" a template
20:04 <@snapcount> Edit a layout, click display tab, click edit on the style, save the style, they see the folder view containing the template
20:04 <@snapcount> they expect to go back to the layout
20:05 <+perlDreamer> I thought it already did that?
20:05 <+perlDreamer> ?proceed=XXXXXXXX
20:05 <@snapcount> I don't know... haven't edited a style in like 7000 years
20:06 <@snapcount> that was my impression of what they were pissed about
20:06 <@snapcount> I guess I can try it real quick =D
20:07 <+perlDreamer> no!  You're right.
20:07 <+perlDreamer> I don't know what I was thinking.
20:07 <+perlDreamer> Probably operations
20:07 <@snapcount> no I'm not
20:08 <@snapcount> that is fixed
20:08 <@snapcount> well at least it's fixed as far as I care
20:08 <+perlDreamer> I just did what you described, and I'm looking at a folder now
20:08 <@snapcount> I take back my offer for karma
20:08 <@snapcount> really?
20:08 <+perlDreamer> edit layout, display tab, edit style, save -> looking at a folder
20:08 <@snapcount> wtf
20:09 <@snapcount> on demo? head
20:09 <@snapcount> what
20:09 <+perlDreamer> dev/head
20:09 <@snapcount> ok... let me do it again
20:09 <@snapcount> and see which one of us is loopy
20:09  * perlDreamer votes for perlDreamer
20:10 <@snapcount> that's very odd
20:10 <@snapcount> it's working for me dude
20:10 <+perlDreamer> here's the URL:http://192.168.104.33/style_03?func=edit;proceed=goBackToPage;returnUrl=%2Fhome
20:10 <+perlDreamer> should go back to /home
20:11 <@snapcount> yeah
20:11 <@snapcount> my url looks the same
20:11 <+perlDreamer> if I cancel, it takes me back to the edit tab of the layout I was editing
20:11 <@snapcount> but it goes back to /home when I click save
20:11 <+perlDreamer> you using a demo site?
20:12 <@snapcount> no
20:12 <+perlDreamer> let's take the mystery out of it
20:12 <+perlDreamer> can you go create a demo site and try it?
20:12 <@snapcount> sure why not
20:12 <+perlDreamer> then tell me the URL of the site and I'll try it as well.
20:12 <+perlDreamer> maybe we're looking at a browser problem
20:12 <+perlDreamer> I _am_ still running Mozilla 1.4 at work.
20:13 <@snapcount> works on demo as well
20:13 <@snapcount> http://demo.plainblack.com/demo1169575953_139/home
20:13 <@snapcount> I'm using FF 1.5.0.9 on Intel Mac
20:13 <@preaction> anyone here know how to redirect an SSL site so the stupid "This cert belongs to www.example.com NOT example.com" popup stops showing up? i'm trying a RewriteCond on the HTTP_HOST and a permanent redirect, but it happens after the SSL handshake
20:14 <@snapcount> you need another cert
20:14 <@snapcount> it's assigned to a FQDN
20:14 <@snapcount> one or the other
20:14 <@snapcount> can't be both
20:14 <@preaction> i'm not doing that, and i assume that they aren't paying for it
20:14 <@snapcount> I wouldn't either
20:14 <@snapcount> but that's the only solution
20:15 <@preaction> it wouldn't be much of an issue if IE7 didn't tell you flat-out "DO NOT GO TO THIS SITE YOU IDIOT"
20:15 <@snapcount> if they want to secure two different domains, they need two certs
20:15 <+perlDreamer> it works fine on the demo site
20:15 <+perlDreamer> I hate Mozilla 1.4
20:15 <@snapcount> I think there are some certs now that secure a TLD like *.foo.com but I don't know how to make one or set it up or anything about it
20:16 <@snapcount> I think they are expensive
20:19 <@preaction> a wildcard cert, but it apparently still doesn't work on foo.com
20:19 <@snapcount> oh really
20:19 <@preaction> (since it requires the ".foo.com"
20:19 <@snapcount> that's pretty pointless then
20:19 <@snapcount> imo
20:19 <@preaction> i've been doing research for 20 minutes....
20:19 <@preaction> screw this
20:20  * snapcount passes a preaction a happy drink
20:20 <@preaction> oh snap i think i have an idea
20:24 <@snapcount> that's funny
20:24 < ckotil> Can I have my webgui  session cookie  span multiple domains?
20:24 <@snapcount> you said "oh snap" like the slang phrase
20:25 <@snapcount> while also responding to me
20:25 < ckotil> I would like the user to remain logged accross a plethora of domains. ive got ~9
20:25 <@snapcount> nice
20:26 <@snapcount> that would probably be limited by the rules for cookies not by webgui
20:26 <@rizen> no you can't
20:26 <@rizen> snapcount is right
20:26 <@rizen> sitea.com cannot read the cookies of siteb.com
20:26 < ckotil> even thoughg im using modrewrite?
20:26 <@rizen> it has nothing to do with that
20:26 < ckotil> k
20:26 <@snapcount> you could implement a central auth system pretty painlessly though
20:26 <@rizen> it's a security precaution in the browsers
20:27 <@rizen> no he couldn't snapcount
20:27 <@rizen> not for what he's talking about
20:27 < ckotil> i use CAS. but when you jump to a differnet domain, the user must login again. (which is only a single click, but still...annoying)
20:27 <@rizen> he wants people to be able to seamlessly move between sitea.com and siteb.com and remain logged in
20:27 <@snapcount> ohhhhh
20:27 <@rizen> it can be done, but it's not easy
20:27 < ckotil> so the solution ive had in place for a while is to use 1 domain for all admin access.
20:28 <@rizen> i will be working on code to do that in the next couple of months...but not right now
20:28 < ckotil> great.
20:28 <@rizen> it won't be part of webgui though
20:28 <@rizen> it will be a seperate script of some kind
20:28 <@rizen> i'll probably publish it to the contribs area though
20:28 < ckotil> that will work for me.
20:29 < ckotil> lunch time.
20:31 <@snapcount> so perlDreamer did you figure out wth the deal was
20:31 <@snapcount> with our RFE
20:31 <@snapcount> is it a FF 1.4 problem
20:32 <@snapcount> when you create a file pile, does it upload all of the files to the same storage location?
20:33 <+perlDreamer> I can't use the FilePile with Mozilla 1.4
20:33 <+perlDreamer> not FF 1.4
20:33 <@snapcount> oh
20:34 <@snapcount> what exactly is the diff between mozilla and FF?
20:34 <+perlDreamer> need to do a little dayJob
20:34 <+perlDreamer> be back in a bit
20:39 <@snapcount> rizen: can you explain an enigma to me?
20:39 <@rizen> you want to know the definition of enigma?
20:40 <@snapcount> heh
20:40 <@snapcount> nice
20:40 <@snapcount> no
20:40 <@snapcount> the DoS has this flash based photo gallery thing
20:40 <@snapcount> but it uses components like .swf file
20:40 <@snapcount> that are file assets
20:41 <@snapcount> somehow they got all of this stuff required into the same uploads folder
20:41 <@snapcount> but it's still a wG asset
20:41 <@snapcount> do they have something custom, or is there a trick to doing this?
20:41 <+perlDreamer> what is "the DoS"?
20:42 <@snapcount> a client
20:42 <@rizen> your question doesn't make any sense
20:42 <@snapcount> I know
20:42 <@snapcount> let me tell you what I want to do
20:42 <@snapcount> instead
20:42 <@rizen> i don't mean that what they are doing doesn't make any sense
20:42 <@rizen> i'm saying your question doesn't make any sense
20:42 <@snapcount> ok..
20:43 <@rizen> also...if you're getting to the point of asking questions like the one you just asked
20:43 <@rizen> you're wasting time
20:43 <@rizen> this is a templating problem
20:43 <@rizen> pure and simple
20:43 <@snapcount> I want to do something similar to them
20:43 <@snapcount> I'm not asking for help with their problem
20:43 <@rizen> for what?
20:43 <@snapcount> for the irc applet
20:44 <@rizen> doesn't it already work?
20:44 <@snapcount> well it does, but it could work better
20:44 <@rizen> and you have nothing better to do?
20:44 <@snapcount> of course I do, I put in extra time to make stuff better for the community
20:44 <@snapcount> I still get my crap done if that's what you're getting at
20:46 <@rizen> what i'm getting at is that you knwo what we're doing with the web sites soon
20:46 <@rizen> and your irc thing is already working
20:46 <@rizen> yet you're spending time on it
20:46 <@rizen> work on it after the thing with the web sites happens
20:49 <@snapcount> I'm not sure how that's going to affect what I'm doing but I can take your word for it
20:50 <@snapcount> you have a habit of seeing further into the future than me
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21:06  * PedersenMJ waves.
21:06 < PedersenMJ> How's everybody today?
21:07 < ckotil> good
21:07 < PedersenMJ> Now waiting for perlDreamer to make his way back. Wanted to show him some alternative ideas for docs that I put together (as I had promised to do)
21:53 <@preaction> rizen: you around? i've found a way to fix the DoS problem, but it may not be a Good Thing
21:53 <@preaction> and will someone tell me why my computer is magically running out of disk space?
21:54 <@preaction> 200MB is disappearing gradually before my eyes
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22:04 <@rizen> what's up preaction
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22:06 <@rizen> what's up preaction
22:06 <@preaction> A GIGABYTE of HD doesn't just DISAPPEAR
22:06 <@preaction> anyway
22:06 <@rizen> it might
22:07 <@preaction> the way to fix the DoS problem with their forcing RSS into a new mould is to put some extra vars in the attachment_loop (the asset vars), since it seems that H::T's global_vars only applies for actual global variables, it's not an intelligent propagation
22:07 <@preaction> it's a bug in H::T
22:08 <@preaction> it doesn't disappear and then re-appear :p
22:08 <@rizen> yes it does
22:08 <@rizen> when it's some sort of swap or tempsace function
22:08 <@preaction> that's what i was thinking, it was trying to write a page to disk
22:08 <@rizen> like for instance, what spotlight does
22:08 <@rizen> when indexing
22:09 <@preaction> why didn't it realize it did not have enough space to write a page to disk?
22:09 <@rizen> did i write it?
22:09 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:09 <@rizen> if what you're saying about ht is true
22:09 <@rizen> then we'll have problems all over the system
22:09 <@preaction> my question for you is: should I repeat those vars in the attachment_loop, even if they have nothing to do with attachments?
22:10 <@rizen> no
22:10 <@rizen> absolutely not
22:10 <@preaction> we could just do it as a stopgap, and try to get a fix for H::T (or maybe there is a fixed version we should distribute with)
22:10 <@preaction> and apparently i lag
22:10 <@rizen> the nav system relies heavily on global variables
22:11 <@rizen> and so does the main collab system templates
22:11 <@rizen> if that's not working right then we should have problems everywhere
22:11 <@rizen> and maybe we do
22:11 <@rizen> but if we do, then we need to submit a patch to h:t
22:12 <@preaction> let me get back to where i was before, i had a working example of it broken
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22:13 -!- lunchDreamer is now known as perlDreamer
22:13 <+perlDreamer> I'm back
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22:18 < ckotil> can i demo the new calendar asset on the plainblack site right now?
22:19 <+perlDreamer> you can on demo.plainblack.com
22:19 <@rizen> on demo.plainblack.com you can
22:19 < ckotil> cool
22:19 < ckotil> thx
22:19 <+perlDreamer> it's very nice
22:19 <+perlDreamer> the default templates rock!
22:19 -!- wgGuest91 [n=wgGuest9@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
22:20 <@rizen> no one has ever said that about webgui templates before
22:20 < ckotil> i saw it briefly the other day i think. and i just overheard some talk between a couple of mycoworkers about rewriting the shared calendar system.
22:20 -!- wgGuest91 [n=wgGuest9@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
22:20 < ckotil> im like, uhmm...lets just use webgui and there new badass calendar, with iCal support
22:20 <+perlDreamer> it uses iCal to replicate data between calendars
22:20 < ckotil> i like the phpBB template.
22:20 < ckotil> sick
22:20 <+perlDreamer> you can also export it to, or import it from other iCal source
22:20 <+perlDreamer> is iCal bad?
22:21 -!- wgGuest67 [n=wgGuest6@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
22:21 < ckotil> we use it here. for our shared calendar envrionment
22:21 <+perlDreamer> I've never used it before, but people who use my site would like to have iCal so they can sync up to activities at the church.
22:21 <+perlDreamer> Has iCal given you problems?
22:21 -!- wgGuest67 [n=wgGuest6@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
22:21 <+perlDreamer> anything we should know about proactively?
22:22 < ckotil> ive never used it personally. my group seems to like it tho
22:22 < ckotil> here are the calendars we use now. i think webgui's system should easily replace this.
22:22 < ckotil> http://www.abilene.iu.edu/abilene/maintenance-calendar.html
22:25 < ckotil> hrm.. we need to be able to enter multiple start/end dates
22:26 <@rizen> what do you mean by multiple?
22:26 <@rizen> you mean, recurrences?
22:26 < ckotil> no no. that would be good too tho
22:26 < ckotil> for example. we use our calendar system for scheduled maintance
22:26 <@rizen> there's a seperate tab for recurrences
22:26 < ckotil> ok good.
22:27 < ckotil> but some scheduled maintenance requires us to turn down the network multtple times. and so we need multple start/end times
22:27 <@rizen> then those are seperate events
22:28 < ckotil> aye...suppose
22:28 < ckotil> then there's our reporting tool. im sure mutiple events would throw off something in that. :/ 
22:28 < ckotil> o well.
22:28 <@rizen> there's always rfe or fund a feature
22:29 < ckotil> yeah i asked for a quote yesterday. for limiting access to multple groups, rather than creating a new group containing the multiple groups
22:29 <@rizen> oh, that was you
22:29 <@rizen> there was a discussion about that this morning
22:29 < ckotil> though, i feel its unnecesary. but my manager insisted
22:30 < ckotil> how'd that discussion go?
22:30 <+perlDreamer> I do have a script to diagram the group relationships, if that would help
22:30 <@rizen> the gist of it is that it's not possible due to the performance penalty involved
22:30 <@rizen> however, we could build an interface that would make it feel like that's what you're getting
22:30 < ckotil> ah. ok
22:30 <@rizen> and still work the webgui way behind the seens
22:30 <@rizen> scenes
22:30 <@snapcount> the web based chat client is officially online
22:30 < ckotil> great. can you quote me on that interface then?
22:31 <@rizen> it's being generated
22:31 <@rizen> i don't do quotes
22:31 <@rizen> i don't do customer projects
22:31 < ckotil> ok. 
22:31 <@rizen> just r&d and support
22:32 <@snapcount> please be friendly and courteous to those who join... most will probably be new to IRC and general so be patient
22:32  * perlDreamer puts on his hip waders and prepares for the flood
22:32 <@rizen> i'm going to write a poe bot to automatically kickban anyone who has a wgguest name
22:33 < ckotil> rizen: can I get that group relationship diagram script from you sometime?
22:33 <@preaction> rizen: http://erxz.com/pb/1068 <- an RSS template for the CS to show you the bug in HTML::Template. make a CS and a Thread with an attachment, and then try to view the RSS and you'll see the the title and link and description are all from the collab system and not the thread, even though a Data::Dumper output of the template vars shows those exact keys there, and they work in the item_loop
22:33 <@rizen> ckotil, thats perlDreamer, not me
22:34 <@preaction> i remember this from away-way back, global_vars only works on top-level vars, it doesn't do inheritance
22:34 < ckotil> heh. woops
22:34 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: don't hold your breath on that
22:34 <@snapcount> I wouldn't be surprised if no one uses the thing at all
22:35 <@snapcount> you never know
22:35 <@rizen> preaction: then build them an Template Toolkit template that will do what they want
22:35 <@preaction> um... "Live Chat with People who know WebGUI", i'm surprised nobody's hit it already
22:35 <@rizen> cuz you can set and use variables in that
22:35 <@preaction> sweet, i've never used TT before
22:37 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: I used my template dumper to fix a bug this morning in some templates.
22:37 <@snapcount> yeah... I just hope the channel doesn't degrade to a flood of "how to find the firefox icon" kind of questions
22:37 <+perlDreamer> ick
22:37 <@preaction> it won't, those people will be seriously flamed
22:37 <+perlDreamer> well, we control the interface, so we could do all sorts of things
22:37 <+perlDreamer> karma > minKarmaLimit
22:37 < gooeybot> > minkarmalimit has neutral karma
22:37 <@snapcount> just remember we represent pb, so don't be too obnoxious
22:38 <+perlDreamer> I'll be the obnoxious one.
22:38 <@snapcount> a healthy smack or too is fine though
22:38 <+perlDreamer> JT can't fire me.
22:38 <+perlDreamer> all he can do is take away my commit bit
22:38 <+perlDreamer> uh oh
22:38 <+perlDreamer> never mind
22:38 <@snapcount> he could also have you killed
22:38 <+perlDreamer> He's tried that before.
22:38 <@snapcount> have you seen Doug's pbwg photo
22:38 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
22:39 <+perlDreamer> which one?  the one with or without glasses?
22:39 <@snapcount> "other duties as assigned" is in the job description
22:39 <@rizen> did you know that it only costs about $3300 to get someone's head
22:39 <@snapcount> I think i'd charge more than that before letting someone have mine
22:39 <@rizen> i didn't say that people will give up their head for that
22:39 -!- wgGuest59 [n=wgGuest5@cpe-71-72-101-120.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
22:39 <@preaction> those with +o or +v should conduct themselves accordingly, those without have no reason to (but are subject to +b) :p
22:39 <@rizen> just that's what it takes to acquire one
22:40  * PedersenMJ reads JT's comment, and rethinks what he should say in future to JT.
22:40 <+perlDreamer> ++PedersenMJ
22:40 < PedersenMJ> hey, perlDreamer: http://dev.icelus.tzo.com/
22:40 <+perlDreamer> I saw that in the logs
22:40 <@snapcount> wgGuest59: you can change your nickname by typing /nick yourName if you want
22:40 <@snapcount> and welcome
22:40 < PedersenMJ> I promised to provide an idea of what I'd do for docs, and there it is :)
22:41 -!- wgGuest59 is now known as greghacke
22:41 < greghacke> That better?
22:41 <@snapcount> hey Greg!
22:41 <@snapcount> welcome
22:41 < PedersenMJ> It's not perfect, and leaves a lot to be desired, I'm sure, but gives an idea of what I would have wanted to see in docs.
22:41 <+perlDreamer> As long as rizen is okay with that kind of introductory material being in the Help I'm all for it.
22:42 < PedersenMJ> Well, he did say that it "sux ass" ;)
22:42 <+perlDreamer> that's a good start
22:42 <@rizen> help = reference
22:42 <+perlDreamer> when you get to blows rancid chunks then we're almost there
22:42 <@rizen> wiki = reference + tutorial
22:43 <@rizen> help can link to to http://wiki.webgui.org
22:43 < greghacke> I need to convince my colleague to start writing stuff.
22:43 < PedersenMJ> Damn. Dunno if I want it blowing rancid chunks. I mean, that's what I named my dog, and, well, I dunno that I like the idea of something blowing him too much...
22:44 <+perlDreamer> in any case, we have our marching orders
22:44 <+perlDreamer> Fill the Wiki with introductory goodness, and then we link back to the wiki from the Help doc
22:44 < PedersenMJ> That we do. Would be good to get some more in there, then.
22:44 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: one thing to clarify in your doc also (if you plan on doing so) is that there are other container assets (like a page layout).  Those being the folder and dashboard.
22:44 <@snapcount> not sure if you knew that or not
22:44 < PedersenMJ> I did, but didn't really think about it.
22:45 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: is it safe to mention the dashboard in the introductory docs?
22:45 <@snapcount> well, you can mention it
22:45 <@snapcount> but say it's advanced
22:45 <@snapcount> I dunno
22:45 < greghacke> snapcount: who does technical editing on the documents right now?
22:45 <@snapcount> depends on what the topic is
22:46 < PedersenMJ> Actually, there's another idea, for after I finish up my doc on making a style. Once/week (or two) put up an article on the wiki which covers an asset. What it is, ways to use, how to style, etc.
22:46 < greghacke> sc: specifically, for user level documentation - like a techincal writer/business analyst to standardize, etc.
22:46 <@snapcount> that would be good
22:47 <@snapcount> also get you lots of karma if you submit them all as entries to wcc
22:47 <@snapcount> =)
22:47 < PedersenMJ> That provides a place to link to for each of the help topics (Macros: What are they? How to use?)
22:47 <@snapcount> like the Primer book?
22:47 <@snapcount> or do you mean online help?
22:47 < PedersenMJ> Heh. If I had time to write up all the assets and submit them to wcc, I don't think I'd be hurting for karma.
22:47 <@snapcount> karma rules
22:47 < gooeybot> rules has neutral karma
22:47 < PedersenMJ> You're right, that is the primer, isn't it? Yeah, I do mean online help.
22:47 <+perlDreamer> not at 250/WCC entry
22:48 <@snapcount> sorry PedersenMJ I was actually responding to greghacke 
22:48 <+perlDreamer> there are 27 of them
22:48 <@snapcount> should have specified
22:48 <@snapcount> =)
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> karma snapcount
22:49 < gooeybot> snapcount has neutral karma
22:49 <+perlDreamer> snapcount++
22:49 < PedersenMJ> one/2 weeks would allow 27 assets o be doc'ed over the course of a year.
22:49 <+perlDreamer> karma snapcount
22:49 < gooeybot> snapcount has karma of 1
22:49 <@rizen> pedersenMJ, i think you misunderstood
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> i see
22:49 <@rizen> i'm saying you can link to the front page of the wiki
22:49 < PedersenMJ> Well, close enough. Probably, trying to keep up though.
22:49 <+MrHairgrease> i was hoping it was tied into the wg karma system
22:49 <@rizen> the individual urls within the wiki are too volatile
22:49 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease, that would be cool
22:49 <@rizen> over time they will change
22:49 <@snapcount> someone should write a wiki entry on the basics of IRC, general ettiquete, common / commands, what an op is, what +v means on #webgui, etc
22:50 <+MrHairgrease> mrhairgrease++
22:50 < perlbot> What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
22:50 <@snapcount> sheesh
22:50 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as mrIdiotGrease
22:50 <+mrIdiotGrease> mrhairgrease++
22:50 <@snapcount> perlbot: gets right to the point eh
22:50 <+perlDreamer> the funny thing is that he's getting gang banged by the bots
22:50 <+perlDreamer> MrHairGrease++ for exceptional karma gaming attempts
22:50 < PedersenMJ> True, rizen.
22:51 -!- mrIdiotGrease is now known as MrHairgrease
22:51 <+perlDreamer> karma MrHairGrease
22:51 < gooeybot> mrhairgrease has karma of 2
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> haha
22:51 <@snapcount> karma pomade
22:51 < gooeybot> pomade has neutral karma
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> I fooled the bot
22:51  * MrHairgrease is omnipotent
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> (09:50:21 PM) gooeybot: please don't karma yourself
22:51 <+MrHairgrease> =)
22:52 <@rizen> MrHairGrease--
22:52 <@rizen> don't want you to get a big head
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> thanks for the concern
22:52 <+MrHairgrease> it is appreaciated 
22:54 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: what's with that domain name... as a mere mortal I can't figure out what it's supposed to say
22:54 <@snapcount> I get the whole del.icio.us type thing going on
22:54 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has joined #webgui
22:55 < PedersenMJ> Okay, another idea (what can I say, I'm going for dumbest idea of the year here, gimme a break :) What if a site were set up (say help.webgui.org), and control were given to a group of people who just did docs on various pieces. And *that* is what was linked to from the help files?
22:55 <@snapcount> funny you mention that, we have a corporate contest annually for worst idea of 200x
22:55 <@snapcount> I won last year
22:55 <@snapcount> woot!!
22:56 <+perlDreamer> yes, but this year you have some competition
22:56 < PedersenMJ> Heh, snapcount, don't worry, it's a pretty tough item to figure out. Icelus (also spelled Icculus) was one of the Oneroi, the dream gods of Greek Mythology, who worked for Morpheus. Icelus was responsible for putting the shape of humans in dreams.
22:56 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: I think wiki.webgui.org is already what you describe
22:56 < PedersenMJ> No, not quite.
22:56 <@snapcount> because anyone can edit it?
22:56 < PedersenMJ> wiki.webgui.org is too volatile, and too one-dimensional.
22:57 <@snapcount> so it's unorganized?
22:57 < PedersenMJ> And, in other ways as well, somewhat limited, due to the front page.
22:57 <@snapcount> better to fix that then make a new page no?
22:57 <+perlDreamer> it needs indexing
22:58 <@snapcount> how does Wikipedia get away with it?
22:58 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, and (while I may be wrong, I'll be the first to admit, since I'm very much the novice here) it does not lend itself to finding information.
22:58 <@snapcount> PedersenMJ: you mean, if you don't know what to search for you're kind of stuck
22:58 <+perlDreamer> exactly
22:58 < PedersenMJ> Exactly.
22:58 <@rizen> i'm here to tell you that you're all morons
22:58 < greghacke> sorry, was away.  by tech writing, I meant overall, web-only, books, etc.  each tier of docs.
22:59 <@rizen> the wiki can have structural pages
22:59 <@snapcount> One thing you could do is write a wiki entry that is an index
22:59 <@rizen> and even the front page can be structural
22:59 <@rizen> it just doesn't
22:59 < PedersenMJ> We know, JT. It doesn't help us unless you tell us *how* we're morons :)
22:59 <@rizen> cuz there's hardly enough content to index at this point
22:59 <@rizen> when there is, then someone can put together a structural page for this that and the other thing
22:59 < greghacke> Well, I >know< I'm a moron
22:59 <@rizen> and then that can be linked to from the front page
23:00 <@rizen> just because you don't know how to do something, don't assume webgui can't do iit
23:00 < perlm> The current wiki is very nice and is more than I need, but any reasons why MediaWiki wasn't integreated instead?
23:00 <@rizen> that's the biggest mistake you can make
23:00 < greghacke> (as I have found - wG does more than I thought it should...)
23:00 <@rizen> mediawiki is written in php to begin with
23:00 <@snapcount> doesn't the wiki autolink from the description field as well?
23:01 <@rizen> yes
23:01 <@snapcount> of the wikimaster asset
23:01 <@snapcount> so that's how it would work
23:01 < PedersenMJ> Now that you meantion it, I do remember your saying that the front page *could* be modified.
23:01 <@snapcount> light is flickering
23:02 < perlm> php?  how does it even work in PHP?
23:02 < perlm> I just lost all respect for MediaWiki
23:02 <+perlDreamer> but while people can submit wiki pages, they can't modify the description of the WikiMaster main page
23:02 <@snapcount> won't matter
23:02 <@snapcount> they can edit the index page the description is linking
23:02 <@rizen> you can't modify the front page of wikipedia either
23:03 <@rizen> you shouldn't be able to edit the front page
23:03 < perlm> Crap, now I have to port my MediaWiki site to WG.  Hmm, maybe I can submit that script for the contest.
23:03 < PedersenMJ> I'll disagree: Random community members shouldn't be able to edit the front page of the wiki.
23:03 <+perlDreamer> perlm: This contest is for documentation.
23:04 < greghacke> no community member should be able to - it should be managed by pb/designated rep.
23:04 <@snapcount> don't fret, we will have code based contests as well
23:05 <@snapcount> gooeybot: quote cake
23:05 < gooeybot> snapcount: huh?
23:05 <@snapcount> damn
23:05 <@snapcount> preaction: he can't do stock quotes!?
23:05 < PedersenMJ> Heh, I'm hoping to enter the "port moin moin to wgwiki", once I write it and that contest happens :)
23:07 <+perlDreamer> I'll tell you guys something
23:07 <+perlDreamer> You figure out a way to migrate PHP Nuke to WebGUI and you'd win hands down.
23:09 < PedersenMJ> define "migrate".
23:09 <+perlDreamer> port
23:09 <+perlDreamer> like moin moin to wG.
23:09 < PedersenMJ> Should it just import all the data, or should it manage to act just like it?
23:09 <+perlDreamer> importation
23:10 < PedersenMJ> Well, moinmoin to wG is just going to be import the data and revision history (hopefully, on that last bit).
23:10 <+perlDreamer> btw, that's just my opinion.  but getting more people on wG will always help all of us as a community.
23:12 < ckotil> http://globalnoc.iu.edu/index.html?op=manageRevisionsInTag;workflowInstanceId=RwYGfS6WrdUbw82uFAazRA;tagId=qGIkgqaz0OsQ_uqlC8qE7w
23:12 < ckotil> gooeybot shrink that
23:12 < gooeybot> ckotil: i'm not following you...
23:12 < ckotil> bah.
23:12 < ckotil> where can I edit that page that says permission denied?
23:14 < PedersenMJ> ckotil: You are wanting to change the look/feel of it, yes?
23:14 < ckotil> i need to put my little CAS login button on it.
23:14 < ckotil> and i want to remove the link that says 'log in with an account' id like to know the location of that template/page
23:15 < PedersenMJ> That's *probably* under Admin Console->Settings->UI->User Function Style (I forget the exact wording of that last bit)
23:16 < ckotil> that setting is fine.
23:16 < ckotil> id like to edit that particular page; 'permission denied!
23:16 < ckotil> '
23:17 < PedersenMJ> Ah, I don't know that, not yet.
23:19 < ckotil> hrmm... i wonder if this is hidden deep inside.
23:20 <+MrHairgrease> ckotil
23:20 <+MrHairgrease> it is not possible afaik
23:20 <+MrHairgrease> the message is generated in WG::Sess::Priv::insufficient()
23:20 < ckotil> ok.
23:20 <+MrHairgrease> You can only set the style
23:20 < ckotil> i see that it was added long long ago.
23:20 < ckotil> ~ version 1.3.0
23:20 <+MrHairgrease> what is?
23:21 < ckotil> insufficient()
23:21 <+MrHairgrease> oh yeah
23:21 <+MrHairgrease> that one has been around forever
23:21 <+MrHairgrease> Still
23:21 < ckotil> what if i edited the .pm?
23:21 <+MrHairgrease> it weird that it is not customizable
23:21 < ckotil> id have to update it everytime i upgrade wg....
23:21 <+MrHairgrease> yeah
23:22 <+MrHairgrease> better update the i18n message
23:22 <+MrHairgrease> you can create your own language
23:22  * ckotil hrmmss... i guess ill just remove the login box, that users are presented with when they click the link they see on that page.
23:22 < ckotil> cool.
23:22 <+MrHairgrease> just change that message
23:22 <+MrHairgrease> the rest should be automatically fetched from the english part
23:23 < ckotil> thx MrHairgrease 
23:23 <+MrHairgrease> np
23:25 <+MrHairgrease> don't forget to set the vistor account to that language
23:26 <@preaction> that's something that should go in the Admin guide, how to customize certain messages by editing the i18n files
23:26 <+MrHairgrease> i reckon it should be customizable through the interface
23:26 <+MrHairgrease> the thing i said is more a workaround than a solution
23:27 <@preaction> edit i18n files through the interface?
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> my guess is that it will decrease performance
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> no
23:27 <@preaction> those messages have to be internationalized though
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> edit the insufficent message 
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> hmm
23:27 <@preaction> so if we have one way to edit them, why make another?
23:27 <+MrHairgrease> you've got a point ther
23:27 <@preaction> unless we can edit the entire i18n file from the admin console
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> you don't want that
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> the i18n is overwritten each upgrade
23:28 <@preaction> why are they perl modules anyway? why not JSON? why are so much of the docs written as Perl modules instead of something else? (pod, for example)
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> the english i18n that is
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> b/c having the i18n as perl module
23:28 <+perlDreamer> Because this way the translators don't have to grok POD
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> means that they're in mem
23:28 <+MrHairgrease> and shared over all processes
23:29 <@preaction> that's easy: editing from the console edits a ".custom" i18n language
23:29 <+MrHairgrease> which makes it real fast
23:29 <+MrHairgrease> the i18n used to be in the db
23:29 <+MrHairgrease> and editable through webgui
23:29 <@preaction> any included i18n language would be added to a "locked" file, and a ".custom" would be created for it
23:29 <+MrHairgrease> but the performance diffrence is someting in teh order of 2000%
23:29 <+MrHairgrease> no typo
23:30 <@preaction> not surprised
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> if you want to change i18n
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> create 
23:30 <@preaction> but, for example, JSON would also be in memory
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> your own languagfe
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> sure
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> but perl can parse hashes naturally
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> not json
23:30 < pjesi> preaction: I am missing the global/master calendar features in the new version
23:30 <+MrHairgrease> so the way it is is faster
23:30 < pjesi> :(
23:31 <@preaction> pjesi: there aren't there anymore, they're dead, deceased, buried
23:31 <@rizen> pjesi: you don't need them
23:31 <@preaction> why did you need them? sharing between calendars?
23:31 <@rizen> each calendar exports an ical feed
23:31 <@rizen> which can be imported into other calendars
23:31 <@rizen> automatically
23:31 <@rizen> the new way is more flexible, more powerful, and more integratable
23:31 < pjesi> because I have tens of different groups that want to have "integrated calendar"
23:32 < pjesi> rizen: there is no import ical feature
23:32 <@preaction> sharing between calendars even updates such things as security settings automatically (things not normally covered by iCalendar)
23:32 <@preaction> feeds tab in the edit calendar
23:32 < pjesi> humm
23:33 < pjesi> so 7.3.6 can share calendar data between different instances of calendars within WG?
23:35 <@rizen> yes
23:35 <@rizen> and different calendars between different instances of webgui
23:35 <@rizen> and different calendars that aren't even webgui related
23:35 <@rizen> that's why the new system is so much better
23:36 <+perlDreamer> it's awesome!
23:36 < perlm> iCal?
23:36 < perlm> how do they relate with calendars outside of wg?
23:36 < pjesi> ok, because me dev version says: sub www_importIcal{ ### TODO: Everything
23:36 < pjesi> my*
23:37 <@rizen> the feeds tab allows you to import external calendars
23:37 <@rizen> and if you add ?func=ical
23:37 <@rizen> to the end of the calendar url
23:37 <@rizen> it will generate a feed for export
23:37 < perlm> that is brilliant
23:37 < pjesi> ok great
23:38 < pjesi> great job on the calendar btw
23:40 -!- wgGuest35 [n=wgGuest3@130.157.145.37] has joined #webgui
23:42 < pjesi> can someone share a light on the followin: the client wants to be able to hand select a "featured article from a folder" and "select six items to display from a folder", for me it easy to make the custom templates but do I need to write a new Folder Asset?
23:45 < ckotil> you should be able to just copy the folder asset template and modify that. then choose that template for the folder asset.
23:46 < pjesi> ckotil: the templates does not contain information about which content is "featured"
23:46 <+perlDreamer> nor does it allow you to select
23:46 < pjesi> true
23:46 <+perlDreamer> I'd say you're looking at a custom Asset
23:47 <+perlDreamer> give the PB guys a holler and they'll quote one out for you.
23:47 < pjesi> I'd say I extend Folder with a featured var and a list array
23:47 < pjesi> perlDreamer: I think I can manage
23:48 <+perlDreamer> well, before you said you were good with templates so I assumed that you couldn't hack
23:48 <+perlDreamer> my apologies
23:48 < ckotil> ah.
23:48 < pjesi> perlDreamer: sorry I forgot to tell you I can program as well
23:49 < pjesi> I just learned templating because I didnt need to spend a lot of time in perl and we didnt have any webdesigner
23:49 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm, wondering if I should feel offended, since I'm at least passable with templates, and that might mean that *I* can't hack, either...
23:50 < pjesi> dont be
23:50 < pjesi> :)
23:50 < pjesi> I find html/css much harder than perl/C/java ect
23:50 <+perlDreamer> me, too
23:51 < pjesi> nice
23:51 < PedersenMJ> Good save :)
23:51 <+perlDreamer> It has a weird non-intuitive object model
23:52 <+perlDreamer> rizen: I finally closed out that macro processing bug from this morning.
23:52 <@rizen> sweet
23:53 <+perlDreamer> updated the tests to test for the condition and updated the docs
23:53 <+perlDreamer> The PageUrl macro was a little tricky.  It had to be post processed after the call to gateway.
--- Day changed Wed Jan 24 2007
00:05 -!- wgGuest43 [n=wgGuest4@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
00:06 -!- wgGuest43 [n=wgGuest4@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has quit [Client Quit]
00:06 < greghacke> Bye all.
00:06 -!- greghacke [n=wgGuest5@cpe-71-72-101-120.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit []
00:06 <+MrHairgrease> where are all these wgGuest dudes comming from?
00:07 <+perlDreamer> snapcount built a javascript/java IRC client
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> really?
00:07 <@preaction> s/built/found/
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> oh
00:07 <+perlDreamer> okay, that too
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> typical =)
00:07 <@preaction> http://www.plainblack.com/webgui <- there's a big IRC button
00:07 <+MrHairgrease> lemme check it out
00:07 <@preaction> at least it doesn't say "get free help" and it's rather low-key for now
00:08 <+MrHairgrease> crap
00:08 <+MrHairgrease> i don't have a jre
00:08 <@preaction> why not? what OS?
00:08 -!- wgGuest35 [n=wgGuest3@130.157.145.37] has quit []
00:08 <+MrHairgrease> ubuntu
00:08 -!- wgGuest00 [n=wgGuest0@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> prolly need to apt-get something
00:09 -!- wgGuest88 [n=wgGuest8@130.157.145.37] has joined #webgui
00:09 <+perlDreamer> well, at least we don't have to worry about you bothering us for newbie IRC help then ;)
00:09 <@preaction> sun offers a linux JRE, it's in the universe repos iirc
00:09 <+MrHairgrease> just watch me =)
00:09 -!- wgGuest00 is now known as TMRFE
00:09 <@preaction> blackdown might work as well, but do NOT use GIJ
00:09 < pjesi> sun java is now gpl, so it should be appearing in all repos
00:10 <+perlDreamer> this is just weird
00:10 <@preaction> it's about time
00:10 <+perlDreamer> http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/01/how_to_isolate.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
00:13 -!- mode/#webgui [+o TMRFE] by rizen
00:13 <@TMRFE> rizen++
00:14 <@TMRFE> Rizen is the coolest bastard on the face of the planet.
00:14 <@TMRFE> Hmm...seems too easy to cheat this way
00:15 -!- wgGuest93 [n=wgGuest9@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #webgui
00:15 < wgGuest93> So i heard I could get free help here...
00:15 <+perlDreamer> only if you use pomade
00:15 < wgGuest93> Where do I find the firefox icon?
00:15 <@TMRFE> Specifically only if you use Murray's Pomade
00:16 <+perlDreamer> It's the best Pomade.
00:16 < wgGuest93> I dunno what pomade is
00:16 <+perlDreamer> Didn't George Clooney use it in Brother, Where Art Thou?
00:16 < wgGuest93> no
00:16 < wgGuest93> he uses it in real life
00:16 < wgGuest93> in that movie 
00:16 <+perlDreamer> If you don't know what it is, how do you know he did or didn't use it?
00:16 < wgGuest93> he was into fap
00:16 <+perlDreamer> Impostor
00:16 < wgGuest93> or fop
00:16 <+perlDreamer> wgGuest--
00:16 <+perlDreamer> wgGuest93--
00:17 < wgGuest93> er
00:17 < wgGuest93> I have a crytal sphere
00:18 -!- wgGuest93 [n=wgGuest9@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
00:18 <+perlDreamer> You're actually that tall, really smart hacker from Europe, aren't you
00:18 <+perlDreamer> Arjan, come out from behind the alias.
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> what a bastard was that guy
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> glad he quit
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> =)
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> Arjan
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> heh
00:18 <+MrHairgrease> I don't thinkit was him
00:19 -!- TMRFE was kicked from #webgui by rizen [rizen]
00:19 <+perlDreamer> probably not
00:19 <+perlDreamer> Jueri?
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> HAHAHAHAHA
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> It was me
00:19 <+perlDreamer> no
00:19 <+perlDreamer> you're kidding
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> I fooled you !!!!
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> Better take away some more karma
00:19  * MrHairgrease is getting that omnipotent feeling again
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> ok
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> that was fun
00:20 <+perlDreamer> He's lost that omnipotent feeling
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> back to the math
00:24 <@preaction> rizen--; editing your own karma is lame, dude :p
00:25 <@rizen> i would never do that
00:25 <@rizen> i can't believe you would accuse me of that
00:25 <+perlDreamer> rizen: are you bug fixing manana?
00:25 <@rizen> supposedly
00:25 <@rizen> we'll see what preaction sticks me with on the support list
00:30 <+perlDreamer> maybe we could start by winnowing out the non-bugs
00:32 <@rizen> perhaps
00:32 <@rizen> i just want to clean up the damn list
00:32 <@rizen> so i'll probably start at one end
00:32 <+perlDreamer> Amen
00:32 <@rizen> and work my way through it
00:32 <@rizen> as much as possible
00:34  * PedersenMJ sighs sadly. I *really* wish we'd found pb last year when looking. We have a new site getting ready to launch which has 140k of html for the home page.
00:35 <+perlDreamer> what kind of "k"?
00:35 <+perlDreamer> lines
00:35 <+perlDreamer> pages
00:35 <+perlDreamer> bytes?
00:35 < PedersenMJ> bytes
00:35 < PedersenMJ> 3595 lines.
00:35 <@rizen> you could always scrap it and go with webgui now
00:36 <@rizen> i'm sure the site you are launching could be built in webgui in 1/4 the time
00:36 < PedersenMJ> Don't I wish. The current investment is at $150,000 (that I know of), and that's just in services that have been paid for so far. TPTB would pitch a major fit over the idea of tossing that kind of money out the window.
00:36 <@rizen> that's the worst excuse that i ever hear from people
00:37 < PedersenMJ> You're right.
00:37 <@rizen> we've invested $100 million dollars in crap
00:37 < PedersenMJ> It's a *shitty* excuse.
00:37 <@rizen> but if we hold on to the crap for long enough
00:37 <@rizen> it might just turn into gold
00:37 <@rizen> =)
00:37 < PedersenMJ> And I hate it. I wish that management agreed, though.
00:37 <@rizen> they can't change directions, cuz that would mean they made a mistake
00:37 <@rizen> it's a classic CYA
00:38 < PedersenMJ> My single best hope is that this site falls flat, and hard, in a non-recoverable fashion, right away.
00:38 < perlm> In economics sunks costs are always closely related with poor decision making.
00:39 < perlm> rational decision making ignores sunk costs.  irrational decion making is hung up on sunk costs.
00:40 < perlm> loss aversion is usually based on jobloss aversion :P
00:40 < perlm> ie CYA
00:41 < PedersenMJ> Yep, and that's a big part of what's going on. What we have is so bad, so ancient, and everybody hates it so much, that the feeling is that anything must better.
00:42 < PedersenMJ> So, all the issues that I've got are being set aside as "Well, we can work around that."
00:42 < perlm> You shoudl spend a weekend porting a few key areas to WG and show it to some brass and say you can deliever if you are supported.
00:43 < PedersenMJ> Here's my personal favorite: I asked for performance statistics. Their response to the question was "Well, if you need help configuring your cluster, we can recommend a group we know."
00:45 < PedersenMJ> Their reasoning was that since I was asking so that I could compare our performance with theirs, and give myself a useful baseline, I must need help getting the configuration.
00:45 < PedersenMJ> Not 100% flawed reasoning, but completely ignored the simple request: Tell me how many page views your web app can handle per some unit of time with some hardware configuration.
00:46 < PedersenMJ> I really have considered doing that porting work, to show what all can be done. Not 100% confident of my abilities with wG yet, though.
00:46 < Radix__> so test it - there are web testing tools out there arent there that test that kind of thing
00:47 < perlm> I've seen the commerical CMS tools in action, in scale, in their full crappiness.
00:47 < PedersenMJ> Yes, there are, and I'm already configuring hammerhead. But tell me this: Suppose I can handle 1 request/second. Is that good, bad, or in between?
00:47 < perlm> It is hard to quantify just how much better WG is that the commercial tools I've seen.
00:48 <@rizen> 1 per second is bad
00:48 < perlm> 1 request a second is utter crap.
00:48 <@rizen> no matter what hardware you are on
00:48 <@rizen> 2 requests per second is unbelievably good though
00:48 < perlm> hope you are only paying for a 384KB/sec pipe, cause that is all you will be using (at most).
00:48 <@rizen> so you should shoot for 1.5
00:48 <@rizen> =)
00:48 <@rizen> btw...i'm kidding
00:48 < PedersenMJ> Okay, bad way to phrase the question: Suppose I can handle 1 request/sec. Is that the expected rate, is it better, or is it worse?
00:49 <@rizen> depends on the system and what you're doing
00:49 <@rizen> let me give you an example
00:49 <@rizen> using apache bench
00:49 <@rizen> on my crappy mac
00:49 <@rizen> running webgui
00:49 <@rizen> with one simultaneous request
00:50 <@rizen> i can do 15 requests per second
00:50 < PedersenMJ> Exactly! Depends on the system! But I have no way of *actually* gauging *their* application. I can tell what we have, but am unable to tell if we are running at the expected speeds, or if we are doing better or worse.
00:50 <@rizen> and that's while running lots of other apps
00:50 <@rizen> the only way to do a fair comparison
00:50 <@rizen> of whether one system is faster than another
00:51 <@rizen> you have to install both systems on the same hardware
00:51 <@rizen> and have them perform roughly the same functions
00:51 <@rizen> under the same conditions
00:51 < Radix__> the biggest difference isn't going to be speed though - it's going to be manageability.
00:52 < PedersenMJ> I'm not even trying to compare one system to another. I'm trying to discover what *they* feel we should be able to get. Even a ballpark range of it. Heck, tell me how it performs on one of their servers, even.
00:52 < perlm> Sounds like you are dealing with novel
00:53 < PedersenMJ> You see, I *know* that wG would be at least as fast as anything they can provide, but am completely unable to prove it, since anything I can benchmark, they can say "Oh, you just need to tune our application better. Here, let me give you a phone number of some folks who can help, for a generous fee, of course."
00:54 < Radix__> We don't really care about throughput with our website - it's a non-issue to us as we don't get a huge amount of hits daily, but we do need to keep the information on our website up to date at all times and wanted to deliver more dynamic content.
00:54 <@preaction> you can tune an application to skew any benchmarking results, the results that matter are still the same...
00:55 < PedersenMJ> Then it comes down to a question of who should mgt believe: One of their employees, or some company who does this full time and has just been paid a lot of money to do it for this company.
00:55 <@preaction> what the real issue is: WebGUI can outperform without those tedious, expensive tweaks...
00:56 <@preaction> you have plainblack behind you though
00:56 <@preaction> and the wG community
00:56 < perlm> looks like my p4/3.2GH with 1gig ram on a sata is serving 25 cached Webgui pages per second.
00:56 <@preaction> donorware has some choice things to say, and they're running ancient webgui
00:56 < perlm> woah, second test shows 40 pages/second
00:56 <@preaction> Brunswick just updated to the latest version
00:57 <@preaction> the US Department of State has been using WebGUI for a while for a whole slew of sites
00:57 <@rizen> PedersenMJ, the speed of the thing (unless it's a huge painpoint) isn't the way to win an arguement anyway
00:57 < perlm> my box at home via https can serve 7 pages a second with webgui and I just cleared the cache there.
00:57 <@rizen> it's the stuff that actually costs money
00:58 <@rizen> like how long does it take to build out a site using it
00:58 <@rizen> how much hardware does it take to host it
00:58 <@rizen> how easy is it to plug in functionality X
00:58 <@rizen> what does it already have out of the box that i don't need to develop
00:58 <@rizen> things that easily equate to time and money
00:58 < PedersenMJ> The speed of it is just one of my issues.
00:59 <@rizen> for example
00:59 < PedersenMJ> Correction, not the speed of it, but the answer to the question. Virtually every single question that I ask of them gets the same sort of response.
00:59 <@rizen> one of our clients was running oracle portals
00:59 <@rizen> it took 8 servers to run one site
01:00 <@rizen> when they switched to webgui, they used a mid-range pentium box with a gig of ram
01:00 <@rizen> therefore it was easy to see the hardware cost benefit
01:00 < perlm> my junker box at home on a 1mbps pipe can do 7 webgui pages/second.
01:01 <@rizen> plainblack.com, which is a reasonably complex web site is capable of about 25 requests per second
01:02 <@rizen> with a 2.4 ghz xeon and 2 gigs of ram
01:02 < PedersenMJ> As you've already noted, JT, to show them what would have to be done would require some clear cost-benefits. And it would require another significant hurdle being crossed: Getting them to dump the current company.
01:02 <@rizen> i suppose it could do more if i tweaked it, but that's good enough for our needs
01:04 < PedersenMJ> *The* major reason for sticking with the current company? With the current company, we can (supposedly) have a brand new website by the end of Feb, launched and public, and we can be rid of the old one.
01:05 < PedersenMJ> With how much everybody (internally) loathes our current site, getting rid of it is a *very* high priority.
01:06 < Radix__> WebGUI is not the answer
01:06 < Radix__> WebGUI is the question.  Yes is the answer.
01:07 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, I know. I'm hoping that making an intranet, and showing *that* to them, will give them some idea of what it can do.
01:08 < PedersenMJ> But, even if they *did* go with it.... Hey, waitaminnit: pb.com actually handles support contracts, and actually deals with customers... Give me 3 months, and then we'll see. We're all expecting this company, once they've been paid in full, to tell us to fark off.
01:11 < PedersenMJ> Until then, though, I'll apologize in advance. I'm thinking I'll rant and rave over the competition, which seems to have so little value that it's amazing to me they managed to make a business, never mnd stay in business.
01:21 <@preaction> is martin in here?
01:22 <@rizen> he's away
01:23 <+MrHairgrease> he is
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> what's up?
01:24 <@rizen> whoa
01:24 <@rizen> your account shows an away status on my screen
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> oh
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> well
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> i put it on away this afternoon
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> when i was away
01:24 <+MrHairgrease> never put it back
01:25 <@preaction> MrHairgrease: that fix you made to WebGUI::Form::Date, i just needed to know what you did so I could apply it to the other elements as well (but i found it in SVN)
01:25 <+MrHairgrease> ok
01:26 <+MrHairgrease> i was kinda mysterious at first
01:26 <+MrHairgrease> but after a while i figured out what it was supposed to do
01:26 <@preaction> yeah, i also added some other tests, and realized that i probably should've tested the other way
01:26 <+MrHairgrease> ok
01:26 <+MrHairgrease> so
01:27 <+MrHairgrease> no more questions?
01:27 <@preaction> nope, thanks
01:27 <+MrHairgrease> ok
01:47 -!- crythia1 [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
01:50 -!- MrHairgrease [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has left #webgui []
01:50 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
01:51 -!- cap10morgan [n=wmorgan@206-124-31-122.denver.dsl.forethought.net] has joined #webgui
01:51 <+perlDreamer> stupid freaking proxy user agent crud!
01:52 < cap10morgan> general advice question: i'm writing a grassroots political action tool (basically it allows constituents to email their congressman) in webgui.
01:52 < cap10morgan> and i'm debating whether the component that actually delivers all the messages should be written as a workflow activity or not
01:52 < cap10morgan> there will be thousands of messages in the queue at times
01:53 < crythia1> why do I think you don't have a choice?
01:53 < cap10morgan> and i don't want to clog up spectre
01:53 <@rizen> just throw the messages in the WebGUI mail queue
01:53 <@rizen> spectre will send them out as it goes
01:53 < cap10morgan> the other option would be a completely outside of webgui daemon that just scans the queue db table
01:54 <@rizen> as far as clogging up the queue, just set it to priority 3 for sending out messages
01:54 <@rizen> that way publishing requests go through first
01:54 < cap10morgan> spectre will still attend to the other activities pretty quickly even w/ a huge queue, right?
01:54 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
01:54 < cap10morgan> didn't realize you could prioritize them
01:54 < cap10morgan> very nice
01:54 <@rizen> yes, cuz it only sends out the messages it can send out in 1 minute
01:54 < cap10morgan> ok, great
01:54 <@rizen> then it releases control to see if there's something else to do
01:54 <@rizen> if not
01:54 <@rizen> it resumes
01:54 < cap10morgan> spectre it is!
02:01 < cap10morgan> hmm, where do you set the priority for an activity?
02:01 <@rizen> not for an  activity
02:01 <@rizen> for a workflow
02:01 <@rizen> look in the scheduler
02:01 <@rizen> for the workflow that sends out emails
02:02 <@rizen> you'll also likely want to change that schedule to run every minute
02:02 <@rizen> rather than every 5
02:02 < cap10morgan> ah, got it, thanks
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03:52 < Radix-wrk> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4134446112378047444
03:59 <@rizen> that's hillarious
04:02 < Radix-wrk> I thought you'd like it ;)
04:07 -!- wgGuest77 [n=wgGuest7@60.50.200.186] has joined #webgui
04:10 < Radix-wrk> Greetings wgGuest77
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04:36  * Radix-wrk wonders how he's going to implement this new password recovery for over 4000 users who have no profile information other than name, company name and email address.
04:37 <@rizen> or don't
04:37 <@rizen> 7.4 will see the return of email based password recovery
04:38 <@rizen> 7.3 would have had it, but we had to let someone go, so we were all playing catch up
04:38 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. what's the time frame for a stable 7.4 then?
04:42 < PedersenMJ> Yay! I wasn't the first one to ask for it! :D
04:43 <@rizen> 1 week longer than it would have been before you asked
04:44 <@rizen> if you want to speed 7.4 coming into the world, then you need to help us get the bug list cleared
04:44 <@rizen> cuz we're not even going to fork for 7.4 dev until that's done
04:44 < Radix-wrk> Fair enough
04:53  * PedersenMJ turns into annoying newb for a minute: What? You mean you expect us to work on this system you provide for free and we benefit from? How dare you! I can't believe the nerve of some developers! You should just be grateful we use it!
04:53  * PedersenMJ turns annoying newb mode off ;)
04:53 <@rizen> that's it
04:53 <@rizen> you're outta here
04:54 <@rizen> you're just lucky i can't spell kik
04:54 < PedersenMJ> heh. Damn lucky I am.
04:58 < PedersenMJ> Seriously, JT, I would like to contribute better to the help files. Is there a way I can do something to help structure the wiki a bit, and maybe help with that?
04:58 <@rizen> Just do it. It's a wiki. That's what it's there for.
04:58 < PedersenMJ> Or should I just write away at everything I can in the wiki, until we have enough content in there to help structure it?
04:59 <@rizen> Whichever way works best for you.
04:59 <@rizen> I built the wiki asset in webgui to spur growth in community driven documentation
04:59 <@rizen> so do what you can
04:59 <@rizen> and hopefully others will join you
05:00 <@rizen> and then we'll have lots and lots of great documentation
05:00 < PedersenMJ> Okay. Next up, how to convert a style into a theme. I'm going to make an article over here, first, and then do a copy/paste into an article there.
05:00 < PedersenMJ> wiki entry, not article, sorry.
05:01 < PedersenMJ> BTW, there's a reason I focus on the docs and themes: When it comes to perl objects, I suck. I've never been able to grok them, and every article I've read on it just doesn't clear it up for me. I can do some great stuff in a procedural fashion with perl, but objects (and, in fact, higher level than list data structures) just don't make sense to me in perl.
05:02 <@rizen> that's fine
05:02 <@rizen> every area needs documentation
05:02 <@rizen> and honestly, the API has more docs than everything else anyway
05:03 < PedersenMJ> Well, that's the part that you guys need and use the most.
05:10 < PedersenMJ> Interesting. I'm obviously doing something wrong, as I can't put a wiki onto a page layout.
05:10 < PedersenMJ> When I do, I get a "Problem With Request" message, and a nastygram in the log file about being unable to execute a prepared sql statement.
05:16 <@preaction> what's the SQL statement? what version?
05:18 < PedersenMJ> I'm not sure... Here's what I've got, and what I've narrowed it down to. /data/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/Asset/Wobject/WikiMaster.pm, line 44, in 7.3.5.
05:19 < PedersenMJ> For some reason, the $self->get("recentChangesCount") at the end of that statement (technically on line 45) is being treated as a string by the DBI, and resulting in the end portion of the statement being <<desc limit '50'>> (minus the <<>>)
05:20 < PedersenMJ> MySQL, of course, treats that as an error.
05:20 <@preaction> someone's using a placeholder where they shouldn't be
05:21 <@preaction> for some reason DBI thinks that "limit" is a column that wants a string, so it's making 50 into a string
05:22 < PedersenMJ> Ah, good, was worried that the someone was, somehow, me.
05:22 <@preaction> screw DBI, screw HTML::Template, and screw Larry Wall!
05:22 < PedersenMJ> Ewww. Why include Larry on that list?
05:22 <@preaction> because I want to tell my great-great grandchildren that I screwed Larry Wall
05:23 <@preaction> you're telling me you wouldn't?
05:23 < PedersenMJ> Could be worse, I suppose. You could want to tell them you screwed Richard Stallman.
05:23 <@preaction> oh god, no. I hate hippies.
05:24 < PedersenMJ> And no, I wouldn't do Larry Wall. Something about having an odd number of legs just does nothing for me.
05:24 <@preaction> i suppose I should realize that I'm a PBWG now, and I should act appropriately...
05:24 <@preaction> but where's the damned fun in that?
05:25 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
05:25 < PedersenMJ> Actually, judging by the actions of at least one pb'er, you're definitely acting appropriately.
05:25 <@preaction> whom? JT?
05:26 <@preaction> fuck the fucking fucker!
05:26 <@preaction> JT isn't a "pb'er" he's THE PB'ER
05:26 <@preaction> perlbot tmrfe
05:26 <@preaction> gooeybot tmrfe
05:26 < gooeybot> preaction: excuse me?
05:26 <@preaction> gooeybot tmrfe is The Man Responsible For Everything -- Yes, sometimes there IS someone to blame.
05:27 < PedersenMJ> One good thing about this channel: There's not a whole lot of holding back your opinions :)
05:27 <@preaction> i have +o, i get to +b anyone who doesn't agree with my opins ;-)
05:28 <@preaction> Alpha Geeks
05:28 <@preaction> tmrfe?
05:28 < gooeybot> tmrfe is The Man Responsible For Everything or Yes, sometimes there is someone to blame
05:28 <@preaction> rofl
05:28 < PedersenMJ> Gotta remember that: If I disagree, keep my mouth *SHUT*.
05:28 <@preaction> nono, if you disagree and can back it up, talk
05:28 <@preaction> i kept my mouth shut on a lot of things, and bad things happened because of it
05:29 <@preaction> example: 7.3.6 is going to be very bad, because the Calendar has not been tested as robustly as I said it should be
05:29 < PedersenMJ> Okay, upgrading dbi from 1.52 to 1.53. Let's see if that fixes that problem.
05:29 <@preaction> because nobody uses "beta" versions
05:29 <@preaction> crap, he's back, quit talking
05:29 <@preaction> 3... 2... 1...
05:29 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I *am* using the beta version. I've learned that beta, for wg, seems to mean "We don't wanna support it"
05:30 <@preaction> do what now? we do support it, we just don't recommend that mission-critical apps use it
05:30 <@preaction> example: if your company intranet relies on webgui, don't use something that could break that
05:30 <@preaction> BUT, do make a dev site and do test that your company intranet works with the beta (something that nobody does, but they should)
05:31 <@preaction> a dev box would run someone, what? $300
05:31 <@preaction> if that
05:31 <@preaction> use an old production box from 1992
05:31 < PedersenMJ> Ah, again with my bad choice of words. beta doesn't seem to mean much to me. I've watched webgui off and on over the past year, and seen it go through more versions than I can count. With that many releases, it's hard not to think of *every* release as being beta.
05:31 <@preaction> 7.3.6 will be more stable than any 7.0 series to date
05:31 <@preaction> and 7.4 will as well
05:32 < PedersenMJ> Nope, that DBI upgrade didn't fix it. Maybe DBD::MySQL
05:32 <@preaction> it's only going to get better, now that more people are payed to develop WebGUI
05:32 < PedersenMJ> I don't (and haven't) doubted that. Heck, I use beta software for production purposes. I find that quite often beta is perfectly fine for my needs.
05:33 <@preaction> another reason i feel we should abolish those labels
05:33 <@preaction> the main one: People are afraid of "beta" software.
05:33 <@preaction> so it will never become stable if nobody uses it
05:33 <@preaction> the bazaar approach: with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow
05:33 < PedersenMJ> Wow, DBD::MySQL went from 2.9006 to 3.008, and *that* fixed that problem.
05:33 <@preaction> good, i can recommend that to people on the forums
05:34 < PedersenMJ> BRB, must submit an rfe for testenvironment for that.
05:34 <@preaction> then when 7.3.6 goes stable, people should run testEnvironment.pl again, that should be added to the gotchas
05:36 <@preaction> also, damnit, i love frank to death but he can't write code for beans
05:36 <@preaction> and he loves doing it so much too, it's hard to break it to him
05:36 <@preaction> JT doesn't have that problem luckily, so i ask him to. rofl
05:38 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/update-dbdmysql-required-version#hvtUJ3-kg8RnNNvbGeJ_iA
05:38 < PedersenMJ> Definitely think that's a quickie, and worth some karma being put in. Don't have much myself at this point, though.
05:38 <@preaction> pfft, not even a quicky, that's 15 seconds
05:39 <@preaction> problem is, all RFEs have to run by JT, so i can't just do it now
05:39 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but would be worth it to prevent some bug reports.
05:39 < PedersenMJ> Throw karma at it, then, and make JT see it tomorrow.
05:39 < PedersenMJ> Or later tonight, if he comes back (I know, he usually does).
05:39 <@snapcount> sweeeeeeeeet
05:40 <@snapcount> one of my stocks went up by $2.12 / share today
05:40 < PedersenMJ> I can go one better than that: Not one of my stocks has *ever* gone down.
05:40 <@preaction> pfft, i'm not wasting my karma on that :p
05:40 <@snapcount> that's pretty incredible
05:40 < PedersenMJ> Of course, having no stocks also means that none have ever gone up, either.
05:40 <@preaction> rofl
05:41 <@preaction> hook line and sinker?
05:41 <@snapcount> I swallowed the whole fishing pole
05:41 <@preaction> you do personal stock trading? or mutual funding?
05:41 <@preaction> i say we should have a little plainblack investment club thingy
05:41 < PedersenMJ> Me? None. Congrats, though, snapcount. That's cool.
05:42 <@snapcount> I have a Roth IRA that's spread across two mutual funds
05:42 <@snapcount> all of my SEP money is in individual stocks
05:42 <@preaction> i understood none of that
05:42 <@preaction> SEP? i know what an IRA is but you put that in mutual funds?
05:42 < PedersenMJ> SEP? Somebody Else's Problem money?
05:42 <@preaction> i really need to set up an appt with my bank
05:42 <@snapcount> Roth IRA == taxed on contributions, max of 4K per year you can put in, no taxes when you cash out
05:43 <@snapcount> I forget what SEP stands for
05:43 <@snapcount> but it's basically a max of 40 - 50k per year contribution I think
05:43 <@preaction> http://personal.fidelity.com/products/retirement/getstart/newacc/sepira.shtml.cvsr <-
05:43 < PedersenMJ> Ah,see, I only know the Hitchhiker's Guide reference (yes, very bad geek syndrome here)
05:43 <@snapcount> tax free contribs
05:44 <@snapcount> taxed when you cash out
05:44 <@snapcount> both have penalties if you cash out before retirement age except for certain things
05:44 <@snapcount> like buying your first home
05:45 <@snapcount> and they are *huge* penalties
05:45 <@snapcount> like 40% total
05:45 <@preaction> on the principle? or on the earnings?
05:45 <@snapcount> on the withdraw
05:45 <@preaction> so on the whole damned thing
05:45 <@snapcount> it counts as regular income
05:45 <@snapcount> yep
05:45 <@snapcount> so income tax of like 30%
05:45 <@preaction> if you insert $100 and withdraw right away, you only get $60
05:45 <@snapcount> then a 10% penalty
05:46 <@snapcount> exactly
05:46 <@preaction> ew
05:46 <@preaction> where do you go for your finances? i still haven't found a place anyone recommends
05:46 <@snapcount> scottrade is where all of my investments are
05:47 <@snapcount> also where your Plain Black profit sharing will go
05:47 <@preaction> then what was that $85 check i just got from plainblack?
05:48 <@snapcount> your paycheck for the year?
05:48 <@snapcount> did you get a raise?!
05:48 <@snapcount> what _the_ hell
05:48 <@snapcount> didn't you have some expense reimbursements coming or something?
05:48 <@preaction> oh, right
05:48 <@preaction> expenses
05:49 <@preaction> i was going to say, i don't have profit sharing yet
05:49 <@snapcount> you do now
05:49 <@snapcount> started Jan 1 I think
05:49 <@preaction> right
05:49 <@snapcount> so work harder!!!
05:49 <@preaction> i'm trying
05:49 <@snapcount> save us money
05:49 <@snapcount> reduce costs
05:49 <@preaction> i'm also trying!
05:49 <@snapcount> get 1000 clients
05:49 <@snapcount> hehe
05:50 <@preaction> i've been hyping up webgui to everyone i know
05:50 <@snapcount> it's a good incentive
05:50 <@preaction> (not because i'm paid to though, which is why it's so alluring to them)
05:50 <@snapcount> a lot of companies don't do it anymore
05:50 <@preaction> because they don't make enough money
05:50 <@snapcount> It took me 5 years at my last job to qualify for the lowest level bonus program
05:50 <@snapcount> maxed out at like 900 / year
05:50 <@preaction> Tonren: I'm always afraid to use mod_rewrite.  I'm afraid I may inadvertently open a gateway to Hell.
05:51 <@preaction> lol
05:51 <@snapcount> uhh
05:51 <@preaction> and ew @ snapcount 
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Heh, I'm even hyping it to people, and I'm *not* getting paid. Which is fine, I'm not a web developer, and have no interest in becoming one.
05:51 <@snapcount> there is no cap at plainblack
05:51 <@preaction> why are you not idling in: #perl, #css, #apache, #ubuntu :p
05:52 <@snapcount> who?
05:52 <@preaction> hell, i own #css, you should at least give me some props there :p
05:52 <@preaction> YOU
05:52  * snapcount looks over his shoulder
05:52 <@preaction> yes, he knows who he is!
05:52 <@snapcount> I don't know much about those topics
05:53 <@snapcount> well, two of them at least
05:53 <@preaction> :p
05:53 <@snapcount> the other two I know a little bit about
05:53 <@snapcount> by my standards at least
05:54 <@preaction> you idle to learn and to teach :p
05:54 <@snapcount> wow... #css is your channel?
05:54 <@preaction> inasmuch as i have founder access to chanserv, yes
05:54 <@snapcount> crikey!
05:54 <@preaction> 2-3 years ago i asked the freenode people to give me a place that wasn't being used by anybody, and now it's that
05:55 <@preaction> for a channel of that size, there's surprisingly little bad stuff going on. people target #perl a lot, #ubuntu and the other distros a lot
05:55 <@preaction> #apache once in a while
05:55 <@preaction> we're bigger than #web, and that's all i really ask. we'll never be as big as ##php though, which sucks
05:56 <@preaction> i'm an uber-nerd, so what?
05:57 <@snapcount> damn... I'll be like 189 dog years old in an hour
05:58 <@snapcount> closing fast on 10,000 days!!
05:58 <@snapcount> woot
05:58 <@preaction> woot indeed
06:02 <@snapcount> damn... woot had a good deal going today
06:02 <@snapcount> two 512MB memory sticks for 9.99
06:02 <@preaction> dude
06:02 <@preaction> you picked me up some, right?
06:03 < PedersenMJ> I'd almost be afraid to plug them in at that price.
06:04 < PedersenMJ> Hey, are the WebGUI help files online anyplace, or are they just in the help section of an installed webgui site?
06:06 <@preaction> help section of installed webgui, make a demo
06:08 < PedersenMJ> Nah, was wanting to make links to it from a wiki entry.
06:09 <@preaction> ah, no unfortunately
06:10 < PedersenMJ> Herm... This might piss off JT if I did it, but it *does* work: http://www.plainblack.com/home?op=viewHelpChapter;namespace=AdSpace
06:11 < PedersenMJ> I think I'll ask before I make such links, though. Like I said, liable to piss him off.
06:11 <@preaction> dude? how? can you click view Admin Console over there?
06:11 < PedersenMJ> Nope.
06:11 <@preaction> then it was meant to
06:11 < PedersenMJ> I used my own website, and changed the domain in it to plainblack.com
06:11 <@preaction> nothing over on the right that has anything that you shouldn't be able to click on?
06:12 <@preaction> yeah, i can't see why he'd have a problem with links to there
06:12 < PedersenMJ> Nothing that I can see. And when I *do* show the admin console, I get the login button, and the help chapter.
06:12 <@preaction> yeah, i logged out and am looking as a visitor
06:13 -!- wgGuest91 [n=wgGuest9@adsl-69-107-5-136.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #webgui
06:13 < wgGuest91> ice
06:13 < wgGuest91> nice. I like this
06:13 -!- wgGuest91 is now known as IsaacFinnegan
06:13 < PedersenMJ> Ditto. I can't see why he would be upset, but... It's not a clickable link. People have gone to court over publishing such links. So far, I've managed to avoid having JT think of me as something he peeled off the bottom of his shoe. Would like to keep it that way :)
06:14 < PedersenMJ> Hiya IsaacFinnegan. What's up?
06:14 < IsaacFinnegan> Hi.  Not much just checking out the new web irc client. Very coo.
06:14 < IsaacFinnegan> Happen to see it. Writing an Auth plugin write now
06:14  * PedersenMJ points to snapcount. Thank him :)
06:15 <@preaction> the prick.. stole my idea
06:15 < IsaacFinnegan> very cool
06:15 < IsaacFinnegan> gj
06:16 < PedersenMJ> I seem to recall JT figuring out that snapcount doesn't have an original bone in his body last night.
06:16 <@preaction> eh, i say things that i'd like to see and he actually does them, so i can't complain
06:16 <@preaction> i don't have time to do half the things i want to see in WebGUI / plainblack
06:17 <@snapcount> hey... I can be original
06:17 <@preaction> laugh. Mr. Worst Idea of 2006
06:17  * PedersenMJ waits.
06:17  * preaction holds his breath.
06:17 < PedersenMJ> See, I can admit to being boring and unoriginal.
06:17 <@snapcount> give me a minute
06:17 <@snapcount> it's coming
06:17 <@snapcount> almost now
06:17 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
06:17 <@snapcount> ok
06:17 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by ChanServ
06:18 <@preaction> sure, now that JT's here you'll have an original idea...
06:18 <@preaction> er.. i mean
06:18 <@snapcount> WebGUI should use a system where everything is an "asset"
06:18 <@snapcount> see
06:18  * preaction holds breath
06:18 <@snapcount> that' original
06:18 < PedersenMJ> Now, go and take out a patent on it, so that you can squeeze JT for the bucks.
06:18 <@preaction> should we call them "asset" though? sounds too much like "ass"
06:18 <@preaction> how about web objects?
06:18 <@snapcount> wobjects!
06:18 <@snapcount> Eureka
06:18 <@preaction> omg!
06:19 <@preaction> that's perfect!
06:19 <@snapcount> (tm) snapcount industries incorporated
06:19 <@snapcount> now we just need a mascot
06:19 <@snapcount> a multi-tasker
06:19 <@preaction> how about a squid?
06:19 <@snapcount> zOMG
06:19 <@preaction> with a big shield, for protection against lawsuits
06:19 < PedersenMJ> Heya rizen: Question for you regarding online help files? Would you want to take me out back and have me shot (or worse) if I posted links like this (http://www.plainblack.com/home?op=viewHelpChapter;namespace=AdSpace) in a wiki article?
06:19 <@snapcount> oh wow... what have we become
06:19 <@preaction> plainblack will probably say you stole their ideas
06:20 <@preaction> hilarious?
06:20 <@preaction> we have become hilarious
06:20 <@snapcount> you can only tell yourself that for so long
06:20 <@snapcount> trust me, I know
06:20 <@preaction> before it becomes true, i know
06:20 -!- wgGuest59 [n=wgGuest5@203.161.68.67] has joined #webgui
06:20 <@snapcount> although I sent an email to Steve and Vrby last week that made Steve shoot Mountain Dew out of his nose
06:20 <@preaction> i was making chris palamaro laugh his buns off today, and i was telling him that he had to do a whole bunch of crap
06:21 <@snapcount> must have got lucky
06:21 <@preaction> lolol
06:21 <@snapcount> welcome wgGuest59 
06:21 < wgGuest59> Are you going to just leave the chat thingy as a file attached to the page, or going to hide it and give it a proper link button or something?
06:22 <@preaction> question: what is SQL_CALC_FOUND_ROWS and why isn't it working?
06:22 -!- wgGuest59 [n=wgGuest5@203.161.68.67] has quit [Client Quit]
06:22 <@rizen> pedersenmj
06:22 <@rizen> don't include the domain in it
06:23 <@rizen> or a page for that matter
06:23 <@snapcount> did anyone grok wgGuest59's comment
06:23 <@rizen> just /?op=viewHelpChapter;namespace=AdSpace
06:23 < PedersenMJ> Should it actually be ^/; instead of just / ?
06:23 < Radix-wrk> snapcount: Your link to the irc chat is wierd.
06:24 <@snapcount> who cares?
06:24 < Radix-wrk> Oh.. you've got a button
06:24 <@rizen> where did you see sql_calc_found_rows
06:24 < Radix-wrk> but you didn't hide the file objects
06:24 <@rizen> it better not be in svn
06:24 <@snapcount> hide them?
06:24 < Radix-wrk> go to www.webgui.org and scroll right down to the bottom snapcount
06:24 < IsaacFinnegan> will packages being totally broken stop 7.3.6 from being marked stable?
06:24 <@snapcount> yikes!
06:24 <@rizen> pedersen...you can't use macros
06:24 <@snapcount> woops
06:24 <@snapcount> err
06:24 < Radix-wrk> uhuh
06:24 <@snapcount> whoops
06:24 <@snapcount> thx
06:24 <@preaction> rizen: no, it's in some DoS code, but actually looks like SQLForm uses it too
06:25 <@preaction> rizen: it wasn't that, it was something else
06:25 <@rizen> ok
06:25 <@rizen> it's a way of finding out how many rows the query would have generated had there not been a limit clause on it
06:25 <@preaction> i seem to fall into the habit of always thinking it's something BIG and EXCITING when it's just as simple as "didn't run the migration script" :p
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Okay JT. Thanks. Wanted to make sure before I posted such links. Current article I'm working on can benefit heavily from linking into the online help files.
06:25 <@preaction> why doesn't our paginator use it?
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06:26 <@preaction> or should i say: "yet"?
06:26 <@rizen> cuz we only found out about it yesterday
06:26 <@preaction> ooooooh
06:26 <@rizen> and we can't put it in the paginator yet
06:26 <@rizen> not until 7.4
06:26 <@rizen> just in case it has any side effects
06:26 <@preaction> so franks' been on you about the paginator i take it
06:26 <@rizen> yup
06:26 <@rizen> for several months now
06:27 <@snapcount> Radix-wrk: it's fixed now
06:27 < Radix-wrk> :)
06:27 <@rizen> and every idea he came up with i have shot down because it breaks something
06:27 <@rizen> or doesn't work in some circumstance
06:27 <@snapcount> I hid the folder from navigation but forgot to hide the zip archive
06:27 <@rizen> but he found this thing
06:27 <@rizen> and it looks like it will work
06:28 <@preaction> the alternatives are almost universally horrible (i've got a solution where you pass in parts to an SQL query and it assembles it for you, and then assembles a count(*) query)
06:28 <@preaction> but i hate writing SQL, so it works for me
06:30 < PedersenMJ> preaction, you wanna ask JT about this rfe? http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/update-dbdmysql-required-version#hvtUJ3-kg8RnNNvbGeJ_iA
06:30 <@preaction> meh, he'll see it when he sees it
06:31 <@rizen> why is that an rfe?
06:31 <@rizen> it's a bug right?
06:31 <@rizen> it doesn't work without the upgrade?
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Did I file in the wrong spot? THought it was supposed to go there?
06:32 <@rizen> if you want it to do something it doesn't do it's an rfe
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Nope, the big link which says bugs right next to rfe. Sorry about that.
06:32 <@rizen> if it's throwing an error
06:32 <@rizen> it's a bug
06:32 <@preaction> the WRE must come with a 3.0 DBD::MySQL already
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Was looking in the wrong spot, yet again. I do that quite often.
06:33 < PedersenMJ> Is it possible for me to change it into bug, or should I just file a new one as a bug, and dupe it, or what?
06:34 <@preaction> just make a new bug
06:34 <@rizen> WRE comes with DBD::mysql 3.0002
06:35 < PedersenMJ> And I had 2.9, and testEnvironment was only wanting 2.1021
06:37 <@snapcount> what's the groupId for 'everyone'
06:38 <@snapcount> 7?
06:39 <@snapcount> indeed
06:39 <@snapcount> thx snapcount 
06:39 <@snapcount> np man
06:44 < PedersenMJ> Wow, this is going to a hellaciously long article. I've got 23 items on my todo list for it, and some of them are long. This is the "Create A WebGUI Style" article I've been promising.
06:45 < PedersenMJ> If you guys wanna watch it, it's at http://dev.icelus.tzo.com/wikidocs2/doc-wiki/how-to-make-webgui-look-like-your-site for now. Once I've got it done, I'll post it over on wiki.webgui.org
06:47 <@preaction> PedersenMJ: before you go too gonzo, perhaps some of that stuff should be abstracted out into other wiki articles? like make a base "Macros" article, and add links to the various macros in there, like "macro Asset Proxy" and "macro Login Box"
06:47 <@preaction> you can make a package of the wikipages you make and I'll verify it and put it into the PB wiki for you (since that would be infinitely easier, though that would mean the username would be mine)
06:48 <@preaction> whatever you decide, i guess
06:48 <@rizen> here's an idea
06:48 <@rizen> why screw around with a staging area
06:48 <@rizen> just build it on the wiki like anybody else would do
06:50 < PedersenMJ> Because It's not nearly ready for the general public.
06:50 <@rizen> yeah, but by working out there other people can help you make it ready for general public
06:50 <@rizen> that's the point of a wiki
06:50 <@rizen> it's collaboratie
06:50 < PedersenMJ> Heck, I have to figure out what is going in anything there. I don't mind doing the copy/paste work afterwards. That's minor to me. I want to put something there that I feel some pride in.
06:51 <@snapcount> what does wgbp say about naming object ref variables again?
06:51  * snapcount doesn't want to look it up =/
06:51 <@preaction> $<descriptive name>_ref
06:51 <@snapcount> gracias amigo
06:51 <@preaction> hungarian notation
06:51 <@preaction> rather, systems hungarian
06:51 <@rizen> actually no
06:51 <@preaction> crap!
06:51 <@rizen> it WGBP says $<descriptiveName>Ref
06:52 <@rizen> pbp says the other way
06:52 <@snapcount> b/c we camelCase
06:52 < PedersenMJ> preaction: That does sound like a good idea, and is probably what will happen in the end. But, until I get ready to send it there, it's going to stay one page.
06:52 <@snapcount> ?
06:52 < PedersenMJ> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/update-dbdmysql-required-version#H78t-iSmQFzoWjeRRSfM2Q
06:52 <@preaction> damn camels and damn the middle east!
06:52 < PedersenMJ> And please close out that RFE.
06:53 <@snapcount> all refs are created equal though, no naming convention for array refs vs obj refs, etc
06:53 <@preaction> correct suh, what it is should explain what type of ref
06:54 <@preaction> though wgbp says to name arrays as plural
06:54 <@preaction> hashes as singular
06:54 <@snapcount> yeah I remember that one
06:54 <@snapcount> man, I don't like this
06:55 <@snapcount> $userRef->username();
06:55 <@snapcount> that's less readable to me
06:55 <@snapcount> but there's no mistaking what user is I guess
06:56 <@snapcount> I like it for non objects though
06:56 <@snapcount> if only what I liked mattered.... sigh*
06:57  * PedersenMJ shakes snapcount's hand. Welcome to the club. Meetings are every 3 Tuesday, unless the month has an a in the name, then it's every Friday night. Your t-shirt is on order.
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06:58 < Radix-wrk> Greetings wgGuest31
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06:59 < PedersenMJ> Wow, he was talkative.
07:00 < PedersenMJ> His arrival meant more than words can say, and his departure will truly be missed.
07:00 < Radix-wrk> He arrives so late and leaves so early we haven't had time to figure out what he does yet!
07:01 < PedersenMJ> Hey, I didn't know I worked with you! What department are you in?
07:02 < Radix-wrk> Area 51
07:04 <@preaction> snapcount: i would not use it on objects, only hash and array refs
07:04 <@preaction> i don't care what pbp says, for objects it's horrible
07:04  * preaction ducks the firing squad
07:04 <@snapcount> well one things for sure
07:05 <@snapcount> there will be a lot of freaking variable names with Ref appended if we do objects too
07:05  * Radix-wrk lowers his rifle, grins at preaction and says "We aim to please!"
07:05 <@snapcount> and I agree with you
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07:05 <@snapcount> I just freaking wrote one sub using that notation and I want to go somewhere and die
07:05 <@snapcount> I was getting confused reading very simple code
07:06 <@snapcount> that *I* wrote!
07:06 <@snapcount> seconds earlier
07:06 <@preaction> lolol
07:06 < Radix-wrk> heh - hungarian notation has always sucked.. for every language
07:06 <@preaction> i've adopted a lot of them
07:06 <@rizen> you're not supposed to do it for objects
07:06 <@preaction> and it's systems hungarian, apps hungarian rocks
07:06 <@preaction> wikipedia the subject
07:07 <@rizen> you're supposed to use a valid object name
07:07 <@rizen> like $user
07:07 <@rizen> or $asset
07:07 <@rizen> or whatever
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07:09 < perlDreame1> anyone awake at this beastly hour?
07:09 <@rizen> pd, what's wrong with you
07:09 < PedersenMJ> nope. All asleep.
07:09 < Radix-wrk> beastly?
07:09 < perlDreame1> it's a relative thing
07:09 < perlDreame1> Radix-wrk: what version do you have of DBD::mysql?
07:12 < Radix-wrk> Umm.. no idea
07:12 < Radix-wrk> how do I find out?
07:12 < Radix-wrk> whatever version came with 0.7.1 of the wre tho I'd say
07:13 < perlDreame1> ah
07:13 < perlDreame1> okay
07:13 < Radix-wrk> why do you ask?
07:13 < perlDreame1> there was a bug posted about the minimum version of DBD::mysql
07:13 < PedersenMJ> I just posted it a few minutes ago, actually :)
07:13 < perlDreame1> apparently the testEnv script allows a version that is too low to work the wiki
07:13 < perlDreame1> PedersenMJ: we aim to please
07:14 < perlDreame1> plus, my wife is studying so I have hack time :)
07:14 <@preaction> cd /data/WebGUI/lib; . /data/wre/sbin/setenvironment; perl -MDBD::mysql -e 'print $DBD::mysql::VERSION;'
07:14 < perlDreame1> preaction: are you a WRE user as well?
07:14 <@preaction> yes
07:14 <@preaction> it comes with 3.002
07:14 < PedersenMJ> And do extremely well.
07:14 < perlDreame1> well, I've figured out your event recurring bug
07:15 <@preaction> one of many?
07:15 < perlDreame1> there's more than one?
07:15 < perlDreame1> I thought the other one was bad specs
07:16 < perlDreame1> there's nothing that says you should be able to edit all events in a recurring set is there?
07:16 <@preaction> not yet, but there should be
07:16 <@preaction> that's a bug
07:16 < perlDreame1> well, I think I know the event duplication bug part then.
07:17 <@preaction> there's a # TODO next to where it needs to go :p
07:17 <@preaction> generateRecurringEvents i think
07:17 < perlDreame1> that's an RFE then ;)
07:17 <@preaction> ooh another bug: "Forever" events are not continually updated, since there's no workflow activity to do that
07:18 < perlDreame1> at this rate you're going to talk me out of upgrading to use the calendar
07:19 <@preaction> dude, i've been asking for time to work on it but they keep telling me I've got other stuff to do :p
07:19 < Radix-wrk> is the new calendar able to import events from microsoft outlook at all?
07:19 < perlDreame1> if outlook will do iCal, it should
07:19 <@preaction> Radix-wrk: not precisely, it can't process an icalendar file, it can process an icalendar FEED though
07:20 <@preaction> the import is another thing that fell out of scope, but i thought of it later anyway
07:20 <@preaction> if i had the time to do it all over, now that i know about 5 times as much about webgui, i could do it far better
07:20 < perlDreame1> that's what Tom Christensen said
07:21 <@preaction> about DBI?
07:21 <@preaction> they are doing it over, for Perl6
07:21 < perlDreame1> he meant everything
07:21 < perlDreame1> you write it once to learn how to do it
07:21 < perlDreame1> then throw that piece of crap out and do it the right way
07:25 < Radix-wrk> Outlook doesn't support iCal at all (well not for export anyways), and not sure how would be the best way to get events from it (you can publish via webdav apparently), but that's the one thing my users keep wanting - some way to publish their calendars.
07:26 < Radix-wrk> I'll add it as an RFE sometime perhaps
07:26 <@rizen> thus infusing the most important announcement of their lives with the level of gravitas associated with an online dating video 
07:28 <@rizen> and doug, you'll have 3 days next week to fix all the problems with the calendar
07:28 <@rizen> or have you forgotten
07:30 < perlDreame1> rizen: I'd like to close this bug by setting testEnv to use the minimum version supplied by the WRE
07:30 < perlDreame1> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/update-dbdmysql-required-version#H78t-iSmQFzoWjeRRSfM2Q
07:30 < perlDreame1> sound okay?
07:30 <@rizen> yup
07:30 < perlDreame1> sweet
07:30 < perlDreame1> next you can chide me for my foolishness
07:31 <@rizen> i save my chiding for PetersenMJ
07:31 < perlDreame1> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/statistics-doesnt-take-into-account-proxy-settings#UQN7MzC3gBKWVUoY0Q76oA
07:33 <@rizen> ok i've read it
07:33 <@rizen> what should i chid you about
07:33 < perlDreame1> Feel like I'm chasing my tail.
07:34 <@rizen> users will do that if you let them
07:34 < PedersenMJ> Yeah! I've got JT's undivided chiding attention. Now, just need to get an idea together that blows rancid chunks :)
07:34 <@rizen> just type ped, i'm sure something bad will come out
07:34 <@rizen> =)
07:35 < perlDreame1> the thing is, on his site similar wG code proxies just fine.  It's just that piece of it, used by the Cache module.
07:35 < perlDreame1> and that's the only place that section of code is used.
07:35 <@rizen> pd: really? the syndicated content asset doesn't use it?
07:35 <@rizen> it used to
07:35 < PedersenMJ> I get a few per night, but haven't quite gotten rancid chunks. sux ass, yes, but that's like getting a bronze medal at the Olympics. Sure, you've done really well, but you still lost.
07:36 < perlDreame1> used to is correct.
07:36 < perlDreame1> just Operation/Statistics now, in the core
07:37 <@rizen> wtf
07:37 <@rizen> i'm looking at the sc code now
07:37 <@rizen> why the hell would they get rid of it
07:37 <@rizen> and replace it with raw LWP
07:38 <@rizen> who the hell did that
07:38 <@rizen> my god
07:38 < PedersenMJ> Yes?
07:38 <@rizen> they custom coded their own cache
07:39 < perlDreame1> svn blame
07:39 <@rizen> i'm revoking everyone's access to svn
07:39 <@rizen> EVERYONE
07:40 <@rizen> we never used to have this many bugs back when i was the only one with commit access
07:40 <@rizen> granted, we moved slower
07:40 <@rizen> but damn it
07:40 <@rizen> damn it
07:40  * rizen head explodes
07:40 <@preaction> should i be worried that "svn blame" points to the docs for "svn praise"?
07:41 < perlDreame1> it's a semantic issue
07:41 < PedersenMJ> I've seen you guys are using some smoke tests. Mind if I ask you what the tests do?
07:41 < PedersenMJ> At a high level, obviously not what every test does.
07:41 < perlDreame1> The smoke tests cover the Session object pretty thoroughly
07:41 < perlDreame1> Large pieces of User and Group modules
07:42 < perlDreame1> 99% of the macros
07:42 < perlDreame1> the i18n and Help systems
07:42 < perlDreame1> pieces of Asset and other assorted modules
07:42 < perlDreame1> all as API, not as UI
07:43 < perlDreame1> if you read the smoke tests, the test names are pretty descriptive
07:43 <@preaction> during our bugfix days, if we can get them all cleared, we should write a whole slew of tests
07:43 < PedersenMJ> Well, let me ask what might be in the top 5 annoying questions, but I'll ask anyway: Have you considered implementing something like junit?
07:43 <@preaction> er, i mean WHEN we get them all cleared
07:43 < perlDreame1> I don't know what junit is, PedersenMJ
07:43 <@preaction> Test::More is the Perl standard for regression testing
07:43 < PedersenMJ> And, do you object to getting something like that implemented?
07:44 < perlDreame1> it would need to be for a good reason
07:44 < PedersenMJ> Okay, I didn't know the standard one for perl.
07:44 < perlDreame1> especially since we don't have SVN commit access anymore
07:44 < PedersenMJ> Sounds like Test::More is (more or less) junit.
07:44 <@preaction> junit is regression testing for java
07:45 < PedersenMJ> It's an idea that's helped me out. The fancy name it's been given is test driven development. And it's helped me prevent bugs, and fix the ones that do make it in quickly.
07:45 < perlDreame1> http://www.sunsetpres.org/uploads/9gu48lpEZbx7nq2s1ZNM8A/TEMXqLvh-AziwZiJvZGC3g/TestingWebGUI.pdf
07:46 <@rizen> tests can find bugs, but they can't find out when someone has done something the hard way
07:46 <@rizen> or circumvented the API just cuz they are an idiot and wanted to do it their own way
07:46 < PedersenMJ> No, they can't. They can't prevent stupidity, and they can't make people follow standards.
07:47 <@rizen> that's where Perl::Critic comes in to some extent
07:47 <@rizen> but even that only goes so far
07:47 <@rizen> man i can't wait to start on P:C once we branch for 7.4
07:47 < PedersenMJ> What they *can* do, if the right framework is built around them, is try to enforce that a test is written for every piece of code. That every test actualls calls the code.
07:48 <@preaction> we're sticking to the formatting standards in WGBP then, correct? i've adjusted my vim accordingly already
07:48 < PedersenMJ> That sort of thing. It's not perfect, but it's kept me from making some stupid mistakes.
07:48 <@rizen> yes we are preaction
07:48 <@rizen> until i hear a good argument against it
07:48 < perlDreame1> we'll need to run perltidy on the source to clean it all up
07:48 <@rizen> yup
07:48 < perlDreame1> that will be faster than doing it by hand
07:48 <@preaction> there really is none, like vim/emacs, it's a holy war
07:48 <@rizen> but NOT until 7.4
07:49 < perlDreame1> Ich herre und verstehen, mein Herr
07:50 < PedersenMJ> So, here's a question for you: If some well intentioned idiot were to want to try and start writing unit tests, how would it be received?
07:51 < perlDreame1> I'd say pretty well
07:52 < perlDreame1> Just study the existing tests, implement a few TODO's, then find something that isn't tested well.
07:53 < PedersenMJ> Well, still gotta finish up the current document, at least two more templates, and then can consider that. It's not something that this particular idiot is going to be jumping on tomorrow. But, possibly... Yeah, I'd like to.
07:56 < perlDreame1> cool.  Snapcount, rizen and I wrote the majority of the tests.  We'd be happy to help you get started.
07:56 <@rizen> it would be more fair to say that pd wrote 99% of them
07:59 < PedersenMJ> Well, hopefully, it'll be possible to get the entire system into it. JT, something to consider: Test Driven Development sometimes has to happen as an edict. But the results... For myself, every time I've gone at a project and implemented TDD, I've found myself preventing dozens of bugs. Every single time.
07:59 <@preaction> it is an edict
07:59 < PedersenMJ> I'm only one bit of anecdotal evidence, but it could be a way to start reducing bug count.
07:59 <@rizen> PedersenMJ: don't take this the wrong way, but you are getting on my nerves
08:00 < PedersenMJ> I thought so. Sorry about that.
08:00 <@rizen> you're stating a lot of crap as if i don't already know these things
08:00 <@rizen> or as if i haven't thought of them
08:00 <@snapcount> Say my code starts with a call to sub go() and that calls sub1() which calls sub2() and sub2 croaks("the world is ending").  If I made the call to go() like this: if (eval { go() } ) { #good } else { print "Error was: ".$@ } is that going to catch the exception 
08:00 <@preaction> snapcount: yes, but tias
08:00 < PedersenMJ> I tend to be good at that. Without trying, I offend. I do apologize.
08:00 <@rizen> you're not offending
08:00 <@snapcount> tias?
08:00 <@rizen> just stop
08:00 <@preaction> perlbot tias
08:01 < perlbot> Try It And See: the best way to learn if something works.
08:01 <@snapcount> well, I'm afraid it would work but not be working for the reasons I thought it was
08:01 <@snapcount> if the there was no eval, that would be like a fatal correct?
08:01 <@snapcount> execution would stop immediately
08:02 <@preaction> it's just like exception handling in java, if it gets to a certain level (level 0 depth, as it were), it will be handled by the interpreter, which will kill the program
08:02 <@preaction> yes
08:02 <@snapcount> ok... so why use croak instead of die?  What's the difference?
08:02 <@rizen> read pbp
08:02 <@rizen> seriously
08:02 <@rizen> cover to cover
08:02 <@rizen> and when you'
08:02 <@rizen> re done
08:02 <@rizen> read it again
08:02 <@preaction> snapcount: or at least read perldoc Carp
08:02 <@rizen> your job and life depend on it
08:03 <@preaction> perlbot docs for Carp
08:03 < perlbot> Documentation for 'Carp' can be found here: http://xrl.us/udvi
08:03 < perlDreame1> die tells you where it died.
08:03 < perlDreame1> Croak tells you where it got called from
08:03 < perlDreame1> It's like those undefine Asset bugs we keep chasing down
08:03 <@preaction> it might be best to use confess sometimes
08:03 <@snapcount> ok that's what I got from the book, is that the only difference
08:04 <@snapcount> I guess that's what I was really asking
08:04 <@rizen> yes
08:04 <@rizen> but that's huge
08:04 <@rizen> HUGE
08:04 <@rizen> H-U-G-E-!-!
08:04 <@snapcount> yeah I understand... debug will be much easier
08:04 <@snapcount> instead of db->resultset errors, we'll know who sent the shitty query
08:12 <@rizen> Michael Steele, the former governor of Maryland, looks like a white guy in black face.
08:12 <@rizen> http://www.steeleformaryland.com/
08:13 <@preaction> how can the admin account become "deactivated"?
08:14 <@preaction> i think parallels is pissing me off
08:14 <@rizen> if a user with admin rights sets it like that in the user manager
08:14 <@preaction> that did not happen...
08:14 <@rizen> if the function that prevents admins from deactivating themselves in the auth module
08:14 <@rizen> isn't working
08:15 <@rizen> there is a deactivate link
08:15 <@rizen> when viewing "your account"
08:15 <@preaction> it's already been deactivated, it's the only admin account, and i'm trying to find a way to get it reactivated in the db
08:16 <@preaction> it magically became deactivated for some reason
08:16 <@rizen> update the user table
08:16 <@rizen> users
08:18 <@preaction> i see why... the auth method got changed, and that auth method deactivates me if i don't have some profile field i assume, i don't know because frank wrote it...
08:22 < PedersenMJ> Is 1:30 for me, way past time for me to hit the sack. Will see you all tomorrow. Have a good night!
08:22 < perlDreame1> good night, dude
08:22 < perlDreame1> I'm going to log off, too
08:23 < perlDreame1> 5:00am was way early this morning
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12:33 < wgGuest61> hi
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17:07 < ckotil> One of my system engineers tells me that http proxy doesnt handle large files intelligently enough. Can anyone comment on this?
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17:24 < PedersenMJ> good morning.
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17:30 <@snapcount> good morning
17:30 < PedersenMJ> How's it going?
17:30 <@snapcount> not bad
17:30  * ckotil is annoyed.
17:31 <@snapcount> I implemented our new error handling strategy in a pretty complex workflow activity
17:31 <@snapcount> it works really nice
17:31 < ckotil> i switched from using http proxy asset to inline our external tools with our website, now using iframe. and tons of dual scrolling complaints have surfaced.
17:31 <@snapcount> of course I had errors initially and I was able to find them pretty quickly
17:31 < ckotil> snapcount: in an attempt to fix the ldap workflow bug?
17:31 <@snapcount> it was also very easy to dispatch concise error messages w/o mucking up the code
17:31 <@snapcount> so I'm sold on it
17:32 < PedersenMJ> So, not bad at all, snapcount. Nice job.
17:32 <@snapcount> no
17:32 <@snapcount> this was a tracker activity for a client
17:32 < ckotil> better error messages would be great.
17:32 <@snapcount> basically generates some summary data of what content managers have been up to
17:33 < ckotil> ohh, wikd.
17:33 <@snapcount> yeah... it's kind of cool actually
17:33 <@snapcount> at first I was like "boring"
17:33 < ckotil> can you get summary for any group?
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17:33 <@snapcount> you could actually the way I wrote it with a slight modification
17:34 < ckotil> ive heard from my group, people wanting some sort of auditing funcitonality in webgui. just like that
17:34 <@snapcount> I use the everyone group to generate a user list
17:34 < ckotil> nice.
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17:34 <@snapcount> so making the group a parameter to the activity ui would be trivial
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17:34 <@snapcount> good lord
17:35 < PedersenMJ> I guess he really doesn't like wgGuest* for a name.
17:35 <@snapcount> I'll see if we can get the client to release the code back into the community
17:35 <@snapcount> if they say ok, I can post it in contribs
17:35  * ckotil crosses his fingers
17:35 <@snapcount> I thought it would be very easy to write
17:35 <@snapcount> but the devil is in the details
17:36 <@snapcount> so I actually had to think a bit
17:36 <@snapcount> the inhumanity... making me think... sigh*
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17:37 < PedersenMJ> Speaking of easy to write: I checked out moinmoin -> wgwiki last night. If we have access to the data files that make up the wiki, the script should be fairly easy to handle.
17:37 <@snapcount> that's cool
17:38 < PedersenMJ> The only "bad" part, so far as I can tell, will be arbitrary file attachments.
17:38 < ckotil> so its going to require more than just a new wiki template?
17:38 < PedersenMJ> And even that shouldn't be too bad.
17:39 < PedersenMJ> Definitely requires more. moinmoin stores all data in files, versus in a db. 
17:39 < ckotil> the user wont cae how the data is stored just how it looks.
17:39 < ckotil> care*
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17:41 < PedersenMJ> Well, if you want to use the wgwiki component, it has to go into the database.
17:43 < ckotil> right. i think it would be possible to create a moinmoin look alike template.
17:43 < PedersenMJ> Ah, yeah, it would. My goal is to import an existing moinmoin site into wgwiki.
17:43 < ckotil> ah now i gotcha.
17:44 < ckotil> heh. moinmoin makes me think of da ali g show
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17:46 < wgGuest86> ?
17:46 < PedersenMJ> Hi there.
17:46 < wgGuest86> #help
17:46 < wgGuest86> sorry
17:46 < PedersenMJ> Heya JT. Was just saying that it looks like a script to convert an existing moinmoin wiki into wgwiki should be relatively easy.
17:47 < PedersenMJ> No worries. Whassup?
17:50 <@rizen> cool
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17:59 < PedersenMJ> heya wg91.
18:00 < wgGuest91> hey
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18:04 < PedersenMJ> BTW, folks: if you don't already know about it (and I didn't until 10 minutes ago) http://linkchecker.sourceforge.net/ very nice. Only problem is that it wants a lot of memory on a large site.
18:04 < PedersenMJ> Correction: Site with lots of URLs (which is different from a site with lots of traffic, both of which are large0
18:09 < ckotil> ive been using htcheck successfully for some time now.
18:09 < ckotil> it rocks.
18:09 < PedersenMJ> I'm looking for something which will tell me all links on a site, not just dead. Will htcheck do that?
18:09 < ckotil> and then i have nagios check htcheck's php generated report for dead links.
18:09 < ckotil> yes.
18:09 < ckotil> and it has a very powerful search engine
18:10 < ckotil> i point nagios to a page that has searched for all pages with 401 errors. and it usually says no occurances found. should it ever read anything nagios alerts us.
18:10 < PedersenMJ> How does it handle sites w/lots of links? Currently, I'm at over 62000 links on this new site (which is frightening in and of itself).
18:10 < ckotil> and then i go and fix the link.
18:10 < ckotil> its very nice
18:10 < ckotil> im at ~ 2000 , and it has no problems.
18:11 < PedersenMJ> Thanks. I don't know if I'll switch over or not, but it's worth it to check out.
18:11 < ckotil> and in the conf you configure it to only crawl your domains. and set external check to FALSE. and you will be fine.
18:12 < PedersenMJ> Oh, linkchecker, btw, started running into memory issues when the machine had 128M of ram, and I crossed around 12000 links.
18:12 < ckotil> im running htcheck on a machine w/ dual 2.5 xeons and 512 ram.
18:12 < ckotil> heh, same machine that runs webgui. ive got another gig of ram scheduled to be installed next week.
18:13 < ckotil> webgui runs fine on it now. im anxious to see what the ram upgrade does for performance
18:29 < PedersenMJ> Damn, now I'm starting to suspect something weird about linkchecker. 149K links seems like it's *awfully* high.
18:29 < PedersenMJ> And it's still running.
18:29 < ckotil> its pry going out of your scope
18:30 < PedersenMJ> Nope, the urls are all still pointing at our internal site.
18:30 < PedersenMJ> It's got to be the new search engine, that's the only thing that makes sense.
18:31 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it is. Over 100K links from the searching.
18:32 < ckotil> yikes
18:32 < ckotil> do you use any http proxy assets?
18:33 < PedersenMJ> No, this isn't (unfortunately) webgui.
18:34 < ckotil> ah.
18:34 < PedersenMJ> This is me getting a list of links I can use for load testing the new website that some other company built.
18:45 < PedersenMJ> Better, trying again, but reducing screen output to regular status messages. Should make it run faster.
18:45 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: did you do something I should know about?
18:45 <@snapcount> lots of tests are failing
18:45 <@snapcount> looks like it's related to tacking ?noCache onto a bunch of urls in the tests
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19:06 <@snapcount> well I figured out what's causing the thing to blow up
19:07 <@snapcount> not sure why yet
19:16 <@snapcount> found it
19:16 <@snapcount> dang it perlDreamer this is not what I was expecting from you as birthday present
19:16 <@snapcount> I'm hurt
19:17 < PedersenMJ> Hey, didn't know today was your bday. Despite the gift from pD, I hope it's a happy one.
19:18 <@snapcount> thanks
19:18 <@snapcount> and btw I'm just giving him crap
19:18 < PedersenMJ> I don't doubt it. I still hope it's a good one despite bugs :)
19:18 <@snapcount> hey look at that... things are passing now
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19:33 <@snapcount> hi wgGuest12 
19:33 <@snapcount> you can change your nick by typing /nick yourname
19:33 <@snapcount> if you want to of course
19:33 < wgGuest12> hi I am just testing
19:33 < wgGuest12> nick todor_k
19:33 <@snapcount> you need the / first
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19:34 < todor_k> I'ts cool :-)
19:34 <@snapcount> I'm glad you like it
19:34 <@snapcount> anyways, welcome and have fun
19:34 < todor_k> 10X
19:35 < todor_k> this is PJIRC?
19:38 <@snapcount> yes
19:41 < todor_k> by the way thanks for your replies on my post
19:49 < pjesi> is there no "remember me" cookie available?
19:51  * PedersenMJ has a chocolate chip cookie, if that'll help.
19:52 < pjesi> give
19:52 < pjesi> :)
19:53  * PedersenMJ gets it tron-scanned. It should be on its way by now.
19:54 < pjesi> hehe
19:55 < pjesi> I just noticed that YUI is included in WG
19:55 < pjesi> stupid me, manually uploading it 
19:57 < PedersenMJ> What's YUI? I've seen the acronym once or twice, but don't know what it does/is.
19:58 <@rizen>  Yahoo User Interface
19:58 <@rizen> it's their javascript library
19:58 < pjesi> and CSS
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19:58 < pjesi> not sure though were it resides in WG
19:58 <@rizen> www/extras/yui
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19:59 < pjesi> I mean src from the tempalte to include them in the page
20:00 < pjesi> ooh
20:00 < PedersenMJ> Ah, thank you.
20:01 < pjesi> I just replicated microsofts frontpage using yui in 30 minutes
20:01 < pjesi> very nice library
20:06 < pjesi> I have an idea to make WG more appealing to the masses
20:10 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: I'm back
20:10 <+perlDreamer> what's up with the smoke tests?
20:11 <@snapcount> you broke them all to hell!
20:11 <@snapcount> how could you
20:11 <@snapcount> j/k
20:11 <@snapcount> you did break them though
20:11 <+perlDreamer> I haven't gotten any emails yet.
20:11 <+perlDreamer> nor postings on the site
20:11 <+perlDreamer> which tests are failing?
20:11 <@snapcount> it's fixed now
20:11 <@snapcount> look at my commit for the release and you'll see what was wrong
20:11 < ckotil> perlDreamer: can I get your group visualation script from you?
20:11 <+perlDreamer> "Lead me, thuktun"
20:11 <@snapcount> you set proxyCache on
20:11 <@snapcount> and left it
20:11 <+perlDreamer> crap!
20:12 <@snapcount> other tests didn't like that very much
20:12 <+perlDreamer> which test script
20:12 <@snapcount> pageUrl test
20:12 <+perlDreamer> oh, PageUrl test
20:12 <+perlDreamer> I'm 0 for 2
20:13 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: did you get my priv msg yesterday?
20:13 <+perlDreamer> It only does SVG
20:13 <+perlDreamer> and it's at home on my laptop
20:15 <+perlDreamer> btw, why haven't we seen any Smoke Test emails yet?
20:16 < ckotil> err.  did not get the pm.
20:16 < ckotil> svg is fine.
20:16 < ckotil> we have a version of our network weathermaps in svg
20:16 <+perlDreamer> nice.
20:16 <+perlDreamer> The thing doesn't scale very well.
20:16 <+perlDreamer> I prototyped it using relationships in the help system
20:16 <+perlDreamer> and it barfed on the entire Help file.
20:16 < ckotil> heh
20:17 <+perlDreamer> If your group structure is large or highly complex, it may do the same
20:17 < ckotil> it's fairly simple now.
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20:17 <+perlDreamer> I'll send it to you tonight
20:17 <+perlDreamer> did you get my response to your pm?
20:18 < ckotil> im not getting anything in pm. you getting mine?
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20:18 <+perlDreamer> I'm getting yours
20:18 -!- wgGuest17 is now known as todor_k
20:18 < ckotil> odd. are you registered with freenode?
20:18 < ckotil> +e
20:18 <+perlDreamer> yes
20:18 < ckotil> very strange
20:19 <+perlDreamer> I'll log out and back in
20:19 <+perlDreamer> brb
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20:37 < wgGuest32> hi
20:37 <+perlDreamer> howdy
20:37 < gooeybot> hola, perlDreamer
20:37 < wgGuest32> at which hour 7.3.6 will be posted? :)
20:38 <@snapcount> I'm working on that now
20:38 <@snapcount> within the next 30 mins
20:38 < wgGuest32> cool thanks
20:38 <@snapcount> you can download from plainblack.com now if you'd like
20:38 <@snapcount> np
20:38 < wgGuest32> oh so it's on sourceforge already
20:39 <@snapcount> it's not published, but it's there
20:39 < wgGuest32> ok
20:39 <@snapcount> we have a downloads section on plainblack.com also
20:39 <@snapcount> and it's available there now
20:39 < wgGuest32> yep seeing that now :)
20:42 < wgGuest32> just wondering if this applet has been integrated with WebGUI... 
20:43 < wgGuest32> Does WebGUI pass to it the "nick" parameter for example?
20:44 < wgGuest32> so users logged in plainblack.com are logged with their username in the IRC channel
20:47 <@snapcount> no... that's on my list of things to do though
20:48 <@snapcount> we are going to be re-organizing some of our content it looks like
20:48 <@snapcount> so I'm holding off on the fancy stuff
20:51 < wgGuest32> ah you mean on plainblack.com?
20:54 <@snapcount> yes
20:55 < PedersenMJ> Yay! 7.3.6 is out, now to upgrade/install like crazy :)
20:55 < PedersenMJ> Thank you!
20:55 <@snapcount> man
20:55 < wgGuest32> done for me already :) going to test the site now
20:55 <@snapcount> you guys are quick
20:55 <@snapcount> I haven't even announced it yet =)
20:56 < wgGuest32> eheh
20:56 <+perlDreamer> I heard it was leaded on an IRC channel
20:56 < wgGuest32> because you guys are slow! :D
20:56 < wgGuest32> just kidding
20:56 <@snapcount> actually it would be "you guy"
20:56 <@snapcount> aka me
20:56 <@snapcount> and yeah, I'm slow
20:56 < wgGuest32> I meant plainblack staff :P
20:57 < PedersenMJ> Actually, JT put put a note a day or two ago about it coming out today. You mentioned earlier it would be within 30. And now I can see it on the site.
20:57 < wgGuest32> well I'm the first that upgraded it seems :P
20:57 <@snapcount> yeah... I'm close to breaking my 30 min promise
20:57 <@snapcount> putting out a stable release is a lot of work
20:57 <@snapcount> not counting bug fixes
20:57 < PedersenMJ> Ah, it's released. Just the press release isn't done.
20:58 <@snapcount> just packaging and distributing, etc
20:58 <@snapcount> it's not published on sourceforge yet either
20:58 < wgGuest32> damn it broke my page design... There  is no more a "small view" of the calendar
20:59 <@snapcount> I think in the end you will be happy with the calendar
20:59 <@snapcount> it will be a pain if you have custom templates at first
20:59 <@snapcount> but it's much better than the old one imo
20:59 < wgGuest32> indeed I've seen it on the demo sites but I need a "small calendar" like I had before :(
21:00 <@snapcount> look for preaction if he signs on
21:00 <@snapcount> he wrote it the new calendar
21:00 < wgGuest32> ok
21:00 <@snapcount> can probably give you some pointers
21:00 < wgGuest32> thanks
21:00 <@snapcount> I'm sure it's just templating
21:04 < wgGuest32> damn it's too large for my design and it doesn't shrink...
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21:05 < wgGuest32> and it's not internationalized! How's that? :(
21:05 < wgGuest32> it doesn't pick the internationalized DateTime for example
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21:09 <+perlDreamer> good work snapcount!
21:10 <+perlDreamer> the release looks good so far on this end
21:12 <@snapcount> thank you sir
21:12 <@snapcount> wgGuest32: it should be i18n
21:12 <@snapcount> if it's not then you should file a bug report
21:13 <@snapcount> and harass preaction when he comes in here =)
21:13 < wgGuest32> it's not unfortunately.. I'm going to check the template now to see if it calls i8n
21:13 <+perlDreamer> either the calendar or the event doesn't
21:13 <+perlDreamer> I don't recall which
21:13 <@snapcount> I think he just sets the label in the template
21:14 <@snapcount> instead of returning label template vars
21:14 <+perlDreamer> there's always next week
21:14 <@snapcount> ain't that the truth
21:14 <+perlDreamer> I should be available all three days for additional bug fixing bandwidth
21:14 <@snapcount> that rocks
21:14 <@snapcount> I'm really glad you'll be around
21:15 < wgGuest32> well whoever wrote the Calendar, didn't took enough cofee lol
21:15 <+perlDreamer> doug works hard.  It will be fixed.
21:16 <@snapcount> wow this upgrade sure does take a long time when the server has 100+ sites on it
21:16 <+perlDreamer> He also spends a lot of time in here helping people.
21:17 < PedersenMJ>  Doug is good people.
21:17 < wgGuest32> cool
21:18 < PedersenMJ> There's four people that have already taught me more about wG in the past two weeks than I figured out on my own in the prior year: rizen, snapcount, perlDreamer, and preaction. I owe them all a huge thank you, and am contributing what I can to give that thank you.
21:20 < wgGuest32> here it is!
21:20 < wgGuest32> he coded the Calendar templates without i8n calls!
21:21 < wgGuest32> bah
21:21 < ckotil> PedersenMJ: same
21:21 < ckotil> they rock
21:22 < wgGuest32> 2 month of debug and there is no i8n for Calendar :(
21:23 <@snapcount> you can help out if you want by submitting a patch
21:23 <@snapcount> if you do that it will likely be in the release next wednesday
21:26 < wgGuest32> ok I'll see what I can do
21:26 < wgGuest32> I don't have much time though :(
21:28 < wgGuest32> what does the Feeds tab in the Calendar asset do?
21:29 < wgGuest32> there are no docs yet for it
21:32 <+perlDreamer> submit a bug/patch for that, too
21:34 <@snapcount> I'm not sure wgGuest32 
21:34 <@snapcount> I haven't had time to play with the calendar much yet
21:34 < wgGuest32> ok
21:34 <+perlDreamer> isn't that a listing of iCal feeds that are pulled _into_ this calendar?
21:34 < wgGuest32> really?
21:34 <+perlDreamer> I think so
21:35 < wgGuest32> I'll try on a demo server
21:40 < wgGuest32> if it's that way though, it's strange that as default example there is google.com in the field...
21:41 <+perlDreamer> doesn't google have a calendar product?
21:41 < wgGuest32> sure but not on google.com anyway
21:42 < wgGuest32> rather something like that instead... icalshare.com
21:42 <+perlDreamer> does that work?
21:42 < wgGuest32> I'm trying just now :)
21:43 < wgGuest32> mmh doesn't seem to work
21:45 < wgGuest32> mystery... :D
21:45 <+perlDreamer> that makes 3 bug reports
21:46 < wgGuest32> well gtg guys! Could you please file those bug reports? Here's a bit late
21:46 < wgGuest32> completely different timezone
21:46 < ckotil> does webgui use port 8080?
21:46 < ckotil> by default*
21:46 < ckotil> for anything
21:46 <+perlDreamer> 80 and 81 for WRE
21:46 <+perlDreamer> spectre is something in the 32000's
21:46 < ckotil> ok. thanks
21:47 < wgGuest32> tried with well known .ics and RSS feeds but didn't work
21:47 < wgGuest32> ok goodnight guys!
21:47 < PedersenMJ> wg32: I think the hint was that *you* should file them.
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21:47 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ++
21:47 <+perlDreamer> that's almost worse than lurking
21:47 < PedersenMJ> Not that he'll ever pay attention to it.
21:48 <+perlDreamer> come in, gripe, don't take the suggestions then leave
21:48 < PedersenMJ> Heck, even I file bug reports. Well, as long as I'm dealing with companies/groups who care. I don't bother with MS, but will always do so here.
21:49 <@snapcount> I'm sure it will get better before it gets worse now that it's easier to get in here
21:49 <@snapcount> eh
21:50 <@snapcount> other way around
21:51 < PedersenMJ> I would have said it quicker, but have to be watching another job while I fine tune it.
21:51 < PedersenMJ> Oh well. What an we do?
21:53 <+perlDreamer> whether they're filed or not, in this case, those are known bugs
21:53 <+perlDreamer> so it's okay
21:55 < PedersenMJ> Hopefully, the next ones will pay attention to the suggestion better.
21:56 <+perlDreamer> away for lunch for a bit
22:09 < pjesi> even if they will be pain, it is worth it
22:10 < pjesi> is anyone wokring on a small month view template for the calendar? 
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22:11 < pjesi> I think I will have to update my 7.0 ajax small view calendar template to 7.3 to keep my boss happy
22:12 < pjesi> should be easy to import since yui is included in WG now
22:13 <+perlDreamer> you could even publish it as a package
22:13 < pjesi> hmm, never done that, to the filesystem you mean?
22:14 <+perlDreamer> Well, I mean two things
22:14 <+perlDreamer> 1) You _will_ have to update your template since the 7.3 calendar is very different from the earlier one
22:14 <+perlDreamer> but you could publish your new template as a package to help out other people who are in the same fix
22:14 <+perlDreamer> on the PB's website in the contributed area
22:16 < pjesi> I know I have to
22:17 < pjesi> and I will contribute it when finished
22:18 < pjesi> and I will probably also contribute the Google/Youtube Video Asset I made last weekend
22:18 <+perlDreamer> that sounds cool.
22:18 < pjesi> (with Hinrik)
22:18 < pjesi> but I better ask my boss if he doesnt mind
22:37 <+perlDreamer> preaction: ping
22:37 <@preaction> what? busy, sorry
22:37 <+perlDreamer> do you have a patch for the TemplateToolkit bug, or is it okay if I work on it?
22:44 <+crythias> howdy
22:44 <+perlDreamer> hey, crythias!
22:44  * crythias has been very sick recently.
22:45 <+perlDreamer> you getting over it?
22:45 <+crythias> taking a while. I'm sweating lots right now.
22:46 <+crythias> I've been thinking about this. http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2006/08/30/seamlessdisplay_triplemonitor/
22:47 < ckotil> oh hell yeah
22:47 <+crythias> and it occurs to me ...
22:47 < ckotil> the price?
22:47 <+crythias> $16k
22:47 < ckotil> yeah.. haha
22:48 <+crythias> what if a game allowed a 90 degree second or third monitor
22:49 <+crythias> that is, in a FPS, the "Look left" and "Look right" ... already exists "in a monitor"
22:50 < ckotil> i wonder how many inputs it takes/requires?
22:50 <+crythias> the tomshardware takes 3
22:50 < ckotil> jeezus. it cant possibly cost anywhere near that much then
22:51 <+crythias> 3 DVI
22:51 <+crythias> it's all about lenses and really big optics
22:51 <+crythias> 50" diag
22:51 <+crythias> 4800x1200
22:52 <+crythias> http://www.seamlessdisplay.com/products_radius320.htm
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22:53 <+crythias> http://www.seamlessdisplay.com/products_horizon320.htm
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22:56 <+crythias> http://www.9xmedia.com/pages-Build_a_system/X-Top_Design_a_system-Configurations.html
23:00 <+crythias> 9x has more reasonable (?) pricing... low end thirty 15" screen is less than $21K
23:00 < ckotil> ckotil: fuck.your.it.policy
23:01 < ckotil> woops
23:02 <+crythias> 3 across at 9x is a mere $2400 at 15" per screen
23:02 <+crythias> somehow... I don't think this is in the same class anymore.
23:03 < ckotil> shit. i liked that passphrase
23:08 < ckotil> theres no fancy lens at 9x
23:20 < PedersenMJ> heh, ckotil: Sites that don't really need to send me an email, but demand my address, get a familiar address: nospam@biteme.com
23:21 < ckotil> i do the same thing
23:21 < ckotil> i mostly just cuss in my passphrases now
23:21 < ckotil> until i spam it to an irc channel , then i gotta change it
23:22 < ckotil> take out some anger on a passphrase ;]
23:22 < PedersenMJ> Heh, you'd like my passphrases. Here's an example of one (that I've just made now, and never used): wyw1TiRC
23:23 < PedersenMJ> Book title, page number, first letter of line, until I reach a minimum of eight characters. Oh, for book title: It's the initials of the title.
23:24 < PedersenMJ> And I try to restrict myself to out of print books, too.
23:24 < ckotil> cool
23:25 < PedersenMJ> I can always remake the password, as long as I know the book and page.
23:27 < ckotil> thats a good system.
23:29 < PedersenMJ> It's worked for a while. Just gotta be careful with where they get used.
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00:50 < cap10morgan> is there a utility out there that can copy content from one webgui site to another?
00:55 < cap10morgan> or, alternatively, what would i have to do in a script to do that? i can grab the asset using WebGUI::Asset::new, but then when i close the session to that site, is that asset object still usable?
00:55 < cap10morgan> and then how would i duplicate the asset on a new site?
00:58 <+perlDreamer> cap10morgan, you want to use the wG package system
00:58 <+perlDreamer> it's designed to do that already
00:58 < cap10morgan> oh yeah?
00:59 < cap10morgan> what / where is it?
00:59 < cap10morgan> does it work w/ 6.6.5?
01:00 <+perlDreamer> oh
01:00 <+perlDreamer> maybe.
01:00 <+perlDreamer> that's real old
01:08 < cap10morgan> yes, yes it is
01:08 < cap10morgan> :)
01:11 <+perlDreamer> cap, you could try it
01:11 <+perlDreamer> I don't remember when it got added to wG.
01:11 < cap10morgan> is it part of the api?
01:12 <+perlDreamer> the UI
01:13 < cap10morgan> oh, ok
01:18 < cap10morgan> so, i created some packages, but how do i get them from one site to another?
01:18 <+perlDreamer> now you would import the package in the new site
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01:19 <+perlDreamer> yo, don
01:19 <@rizen> yo
01:19 <+perlDreamer> no bug fixing today, too much $dayJob
01:20 <@rizen> for you?
01:20 <+perlDreamer> yeah
01:20 <@rizen> i was doing priority bug fixes ffor support all day
01:20 <@rizen> and still am
01:20 <@rizen> so i'm doing bug fixes
01:20 <@rizen> but not off the bug list
01:20 <+perlDreamer> bugs are bugs
01:20 <+perlDreamer> listed or not
01:21 <@rizen> i had to rewrite a large portion of the pop email system today
01:21 <@rizen> to fix one bug
01:21 <@rizen> took me 5 hours
01:21 <@rizen> for one bug
01:21 <+perlDreamer> ouch
01:21 <+perlDreamer> for some stuff that's my normal speed
01:21 <+perlDreamer> but I'm an amateur
01:21 <@rizen> 90% of that time was just trying to figure out what was wrong
01:25 < cap10morgan> sorry, i'm not finding this anywhere. how would i go about importing a package? :)
01:25 <+perlDreamer> in 6.6.5 I couldn't tell you
01:27 <@rizen> you can't in that old of a release
01:27 <@rizen> you need 7.x
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01:28 < cap10morgan> hmm, that's what i was afraid of
01:29  * PedersenMJ is heading home as well. Will see you guys later.
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01:29 < cap10morgan> what would you recommend for copying content from one 6.6.5 site to lots of other sites? :) (we're working on the 7.x upgrade, but not ready yet)
01:30 <@rizen> you should upgrade anyway
01:30 <@rizen> it's simply not possible with 6.6
01:30 <@rizen> not without just taking a dump of the database
01:30 <@rizen> and creating all the new sites from that dump
01:33 < cap10morgan> hmm
01:39 < cap10morgan> does it make any difference if i just need to copy one asset and its descendants to a bunch of other existing sites (w/ the same layout, so the asset will live in the same place on other sites)?
01:42 <@preaction> not really, you're still either doing it manually or upgrading to a version that has the package system
01:43 < cap10morgan> 6.6.5 has a notion of "packages", but i assume it's too primitive to do what i'm wanting?
01:44 <@preaction> durno, JTs probably the only person here who knows, but i assume since he said you can't do it...
01:44 < cap10morgan> yeah, generally a good indicator of being SOL. :)
01:45 < cap10morgan> well, damn. i can't *wait* until we're running on 7.x... sigh...
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01:55 <@rizen> sorry, was on phone
01:55 <@rizen> no it doesn't make any difference
01:55 <@rizen> there's no API in 6.6 to do data transfer
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03:01 <@preaction> you know, right before i hit "reload" on my last test for fixing the calendar migration, i told myself i couldn't cry out "About Damn Time" like an idiot and make my neighbors think i've completely lost my nut
03:01 <@preaction> ... but i did it anyway
03:14 < Radix-wrk> as you do
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04:53 <+perlDreamer> is anyone else able to close bugs?
04:56 <@preaction> perlDreamer: i'm here, but be afraid: i'm very very hungry
04:56 <+perlDreamer> I'll send you a pizza if you can close some bugs for me
04:57 <@preaction> which ones?
04:57 <+perlDreamer> top two
04:57 <+perlDreamer> on the list
04:57 <@preaction> ldap workflow and DateTime stuff?
04:57 <+perlDreamer> yup
04:57 <+perlDreamer> I tried to close them and they didn't close
04:57 <+perlDreamer> Tried the LDAP workflow one twice
04:58 <@preaction> um... i tried to close them and they didn't close
04:58 <+perlDreamer> I'll send you a pizza anyway
04:58 <+perlDreamer> you like Papa John's?
04:58 <@preaction> don't worry about it
04:59 <@rizen> report it as another bug
04:59 <@rizen> and i'll work on it either later tonight
04:59 <@rizen> or tomorrow morning
04:59 <+perlDreamer> k
04:59 <@preaction> yup, it's borked
05:01 <@preaction> why, oh why does the gf pick NOW to start a fight?
05:01 <+perlDreamer> It's spiritual.
05:01 <@preaction> ordained?
05:01 < Radix-wrk> instinctual
05:01 <@rizen> wait! you have a gf?!?!?
05:01 <+perlDreamer> Go fight.  We'll still be here when you're done.
05:02 <@preaction> yes, oh, and i am
05:02 < Radix-wrk> yeah, you lied on your interview preaction
05:02 <@preaction> i didn't have one then :p
05:02 < Radix-wrk> hehe
05:02 <@rizen> you know about the lords providence right?
05:02 <@rizen> hehe
05:02 <+perlDreamer> I know about gf's, SO's, etc. and fights
05:02 <@preaction> you've mentioned as much, but since she's larger than you i doubt you'll be taking it :p
05:03 <@rizen> why?
05:03 <@rizen> i'm not picky
05:03 <@preaction> oh, have at then
05:03 <@rizen> i'll wait until she calms down
05:03 <@rizen> you go take care of that
05:03 <@rizen> =)
05:03 <@rizen> and have dinner
05:04 <@preaction> oh duh! papa's has those chicken tenders
05:05 <+perlDreamer> rizen: I'm tellin' ya.  We should go after Papa John's
05:05 <+perlDreamer> Once we run their site we're made
05:05 <@rizen> yeah yeah...i think we need to be bug free first
05:05 <+perlDreamer> oh, and the commerce stuff
05:05 <@rizen> yeah
05:06 <@rizen> i'm also thinking about going after milios
05:06 <@rizen> which is a local sub shop that's going national 
05:06 <@rizen> their current site is a pos
05:06 <+perlDreamer> I'm afk 'til 7:30 PST
05:06 <+perlDreamer> be back then
05:07 <@preaction> one last thing before i go: there seems to be an issue with urls being created with 111111111112 at the end (it's trying to increment, and instead of going to 20, it goes to 110), is that something i should concern myself with?
05:08 <@rizen> yeah, we should figure out why that is
05:08 <@rizen> but in general, it's not too big of a problem
05:08 <@preaction> k, screw em
05:08 <@rizen> it's more athstetic than problematic
05:09 <@preaction> when we fix it, we can probably include a utility that will fix their URLs if they want
05:09 <@rizen> who is they?
05:11 <@preaction> i assume anyone who made a recurring event with either the old EventsCalendar or the new Calendar, anything that makes an inordinate amount of assets with a same url
05:11 <@preaction> but any asset could do it, theoretically
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05:23 < Radix-wrk> Shh.. he's here.
05:23 < PedersenMJ> Heh. Heya.
05:24 < Radix-wrk> Oh.. Hi PedersenMJ - didn't see you arrive
05:25 < PedersenMJ> It's great how this client bolds the whole line when my name appears on it. Makes you seem like you're shouting almost. Or, in this case, going for one of those sitcom "Whoa, how did that happen?" type of lines :)
05:29 < Radix-wrk> PedersenMJ, most clients do that.
05:29 < Radix-wrk> It can get quite annoying too PedersenMJ - as I'm sure you'll agree.
05:29 < Radix-wrk> ;)
05:29 <@preaction> i've set up colloquy to get OSX to speak "Better Look at me Boss, I got Problems" whenever someone says my name
05:30 <@preaction> now i just need it to listen when i say "I've got my own!"
05:30 < Radix-wrk> really preaction? - doesn't that drive you barmy?
05:30 < PedersenMJ> preaction: I don;'t think you should have mentioned that here.
05:30 <@preaction> nope, it wakes me up when i need to be
05:30 <@preaction> but little white lies don't hurt anyone
05:30 < Radix-wrk> uhuh
05:34 <+perlDreamer> back
05:36 <+perlDreamer> how many of you guys have SVG viewers?
05:37  * PedersenMJ grabs that character from Family Circus, and holds him up: Not Me!
05:46 < PedersenMJ> Will one come with OSX, 10.5? I think I'll be picking up a Mac in about 6 months (once I can figure out how to gather up the $3600 for what I want).
05:48 <+perlDreamer> I don't know
05:48 <+perlDreamer> but I'm not liking the SVG that I'm seeing anyway, so I'll probably switch to PNGs anyway
05:48 <+perlDreamer> I found a way to graph the group relationships
05:48 <+perlDreamer> of wG groups
05:49 < PedersenMJ> Cool.
05:49 <@rizen> PedersenMJ: where are your pics of alaska again
05:49 <@rizen> sarah and i are planning a trip up there
05:49 < PedersenMJ> http://photos.icelus.tzo.com/
05:50 < PedersenMJ> Want places to go? I can recommend some, definitely.
05:51 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and if you're wanting to get up there for fishing, book it this week, and book it for mid June. Book it any later than this week, and you won't get anything in that time frame. And mid June is when the King Salmons are running.
05:54 <@rizen> we're thinking about taking a cruise
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Don't.
05:54 <@rizen> for a week or so
05:54 <@rizen> really?
05:54 <@rizen> why not?
05:54 < PedersenMJ> Cruises are great. Magnificent. And you'll go around one of the longest shorelines in the world. And miss all of Alaska.
05:55 < PedersenMJ> Yes, you'll go on the shore at regular intervals, but you will miss more than you can begin to imagine.
05:55 <@rizen> the one's we've been looking at stop 5 or 6 times so that you can do all day excursions
05:55 <@rizen> bah
05:55 <@rizen> we're not wilderness types
05:55 <+perlDreamer> Graph::Easy sucks
05:55 <+perlDreamer> Don't use it
05:55 <@rizen> yeah use WebGUI::Graph
05:56 < PedersenMJ> Let me put it this way: Alaska is over 600,000 square miles. Population is about 700,000.
05:56 <@rizen> i know how big it is
05:56 <@rizen> my aunt lives up there
05:56 <@rizen> i can go anytime i want
05:56 <@rizen> i just don't
05:56 < PedersenMJ> Cool. You can get info from her on how much you will miss on the cruises. Make no mistake, as I said, they're great. I still think the interior is better.
05:57 <+perlDreamer> I'll use WebGUI::Graph after someone write a directed graph with optimized nodal placement.
05:57 <+perlDreamer> plugin
05:58 < PedersenMJ> Stupid question time: Why not use dot?
05:58 <@rizen> pd, you should write said plugin
05:58 <@rizen> you're super crazy smart like that
05:59 <+perlDreamer> isn't spring better?
05:59 <+perlDreamer> (than dot)
05:59 < PedersenMJ> JT: One place to make sure you stop, if at all possible, whichever method you take, is Homer. Great little town.
05:59 < PedersenMJ> Dunno. Never used or heard of spring until now.
05:59 <+perlDreamer> so what's dot?
06:00 < PedersenMJ> http://www.graphviz.org/
06:01 <+perlDreamer> okay, so think neato or fdp instead
06:01 <+perlDreamer> they use spring
06:02 < PedersenMJ> Okay. Have heard of neato. Dunno squat about it, I admit, but have at least heard of it.
06:03 < PedersenMJ> Oh, JT: Probably not worth it to try to see Denali. Visit the area, just don't expect to see the mountain. Locals claim it's hidden by clouds around 80% of the time.
06:07 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: spring is just an optimized placer for making "prettier graphs"
06:08 <+perlDreamer> JT's right
06:08 <+perlDreamer> building a WG::Image plugin for directed graphs would be good.
06:17 < PedersenMJ> Hmmm, just found issue with the Burned theme that I need to fix. Calendar controls can be hidden by the login box.
06:17 < PedersenMJ> correction: login div.
06:24 < PedersenMJ> Okay, now I'm feeling really dumb. I *know* this should be easy, but I can't figure out how to unlock a locked file. Any tips?
06:25 <+perlDreamer> Files are locked while they are being edited under a different version tag
06:25 <+perlDreamer> either commit the tag, or set it to be your working tag
06:26 < PedersenMJ> As far as I can tell, this is actually a committed version of the file.
06:27 < PedersenMJ> By that I mean that I go to the file under Assets, and click the lock. The version tag it takes me to it shows as a committed tag.
06:27 <+perlDreamer> hmmm
06:28 < PedersenMJ> I suppose I could delete the files, purge them, and then re-import the package.
06:29 < PedersenMJ> Nope, won't let me delete them, either.
06:29 <+perlDreamer> when you exported the package, were the assets committed?
06:29 < PedersenMJ> Yes.
06:30  * PedersenMJ checks on the demo site to make sure.
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06:31 <@rizen> did you try triple clicking
06:31 < PedersenMJ> No, that I haven't.
06:32 <@rizen> i'm kidding
06:32 <@rizen> but you could try not sucking so much
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Okay, on demo-site, it worked correctly.
06:32 <@rizen> if you have an asset that's locked, and you're 100% sure it's committed
06:32 <@rizen> you have two options
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Actually, I *have* had apps that used a triple click. Not in a very long time, to be sure.
06:33 <@rizen> either delete the revision that's locked
06:33 <@rizen> or manually go to the database and run this command
06:33 < PedersenMJ> I'll go with delete the rev that's locked.
06:33 <@rizen> update asset set lockedBy=null where assetId='XXXX';
06:34 < Radix-wrk> restart spectre
06:35 < PedersenMJ> Deleting the rev that was locked worked.
06:36 < PedersenMJ> Thank you.
06:37 < PedersenMJ> And, for the record, I am trying not to suck so much. Getting a good handle on a system the size of webgui is difficult, to say the least. At least I'm learning, instead of a constant repeat of the same issues.
06:37 <+perlDreamer> $suckage{PedersenMJ}--
06:40 < Radix-wrk> Only time I've ever had assets lock like that was when I found spectre had gone into fairyland.  Quick restart of spectre fixed it.  Not sure if you tried that PedersenMJ - but might be worth a try next time if you didn't.
06:41 < Radix-wrk> I restart spectre automatically every night these days.
06:41 <+perlDreamer> that's not very encouraging
06:42 < PedersenMJ> This could have been related to the DBD::mysql version issue I had. I think I might have tried to instantiate the package with the old version. And I seem to recall seeing something in the logs for that site about problems with a workflow executing.
06:42 < Radix-wrk> No, it's not - but it's a workaround
06:42 < Radix-wrk> I'm still using 7.0.8 - so the spectre issues might have been worked out by now.. I don't know.
06:42 <@rizen> many of the spectre issues have  been worked out
06:43 <@rizen> both in spectre code
06:43 <@rizen> and by upgrading POE
06:43 <@rizen> and IKC
06:43 <@rizen> but there's still one or two i have to work out
06:43 < Radix-wrk> cool
06:44 <+perlDreamer> what is the <label> tag?
06:44 <@rizen> damn led bulbs
06:45 <+perlDreamer>  <tr><td><label for="isProtected_formId"><tmpl_var protectQuestionLabel></label></td><td><tmpl_var formProtect></td></tr>
06:46 <@rizen> it hooks the label to the field
06:46 <@rizen> and is required for xhtml compliance
06:46 <+perlDreamer> okay
06:46 <+perlDreamer> I have my i18n Nazi hat on tonight.
06:46 <@rizen> i'm sorry. not xhtml compliance
06:46 <+perlDreamer> I'm reviewing all the templates for embedded English
06:46 <@rizen> but rather certain other compliances
06:47 <@rizen> for impaired viewers
06:47 <+perlDreamer> accessability requirements?
06:48 <@rizen> yeah
06:48 <@rizen> WAI compliance
06:48 < PedersenMJ> It was preaction that wrote most (if not all) of the current Calendar code, correct?
06:48 <+perlDreamer> yawp
06:48 <@rizen> and also Section 508
06:49 < PedersenMJ> Hey, preaction: Nice job with the calendar. I like it!
06:55 <+perlDreamer> The quest for total i18n will need to continue tomorrow.
06:55 <+perlDreamer> Good night, guys
06:56 < PedersenMJ> g'night!
06:56 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@pool-71-117-209-62.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Now, is time for bed for me too. Later!
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07:36 <@preaction> bah, lightweights
07:36  * preaction breaks out DDR
07:38 < Hinrik> just wondering...
07:38 < Hinrik> is there a way to use Template-Toolkit within WebGUI?
07:47 <@preaction> yes, i just gave a recipe to DoS on how
07:48 <@preaction> install TT, and then add "WebGUI::Asset::Template::TemplateToolkit" to the list of "templateParsers" in your configuration file
07:48 < Hinrik> cool, thanks
07:49 <@preaction> so the section should look something like this: "templateParsers" : { "WebGUI::Asset::Template::HTMLTemplate","WebGUI::Asset::Template::TemplateToolkit" }
07:49 < Hinrik> [ ]  :)
07:49 <@preaction> or that
07:50 <@preaction> it would be something you could add to the wiki, if you'd like
07:50 <@preaction> and then submit to the WCC
07:50 <@preaction> gooeybot wcc?
07:50 < gooeybot> hmmm... wcc is WebGUI Community Contest or http://plainblack.com/wcc
07:50 < Hinrik> where's the wiki?
07:50 < gooeybot> the wiki is, like, http://wiki.webgui.org or yet another place to get help with WebGUI
07:50 < Hinrik> heh
07:51 <@preaction> gooeybot, i take back all those bad things i said. i love you
07:51 < gooeybot> preaction: huh?
07:51 <@preaction> fine... be that way
07:53 < Hinrik> what are "karma points" ?
07:53 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version: 7.3.6 (stable) .:. Congratulations Doug! http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/pbwg-meet-doug-bell
07:53 <@preaction> whoa radix hold on a second, babe
07:53 <@preaction> 7.3.6 is NOT to be installed
07:54 < Radix-wrk> Oh?
07:54 <@preaction> i've spent 10 hours fixing it
07:54 < Radix-wrk> I know I'm not installing it.. but wasn't it released today?
07:54 <@preaction> 7.3.7 will be released tomorrow, and that will be okay to install
07:54 <@preaction> yes, it was
07:54 < Radix-wrk> Ahh.. k
07:54 -!- Radix-wrk changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version: 7.3.6 (dodgy beta) .:. Congratulations Doug! http://www.plainblack.com/news/news/pbwg-meet-doug-bell
07:54 <@preaction> there's also a notice that you shouldn't install it
07:54 <@preaction> roflrofl
07:54 <@preaction> tomorrow roy will make 7.3.7 and all will be well
07:55 < Hinrik> how long until there's a 7.4.0 ?
07:55 < Radix-wrk> Hinrik, karma is an accumulation of points you get for being active in the community - posting, helping out others, contributing to the wiki, etc..
07:55 <@preaction> Hinrik: karma points are things you get for posting on the forums, and making rated posts. you can spend it by adding karma to RFEs you want to see
07:55 < gooeybot> points are things you get for posting on the forums, and making rated posts. you can spend it by adding karma to rfes you want to see has neutral karma
07:55 <@preaction> whoa
07:55 < Hinrik> RFE? Request for ...enhancement?
07:55 <@preaction> yeah
07:56 < Hinrik> ok
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07:57 <@preaction> example: i have 3600 karma just sitting, i've yet to find an RFE to put it into
07:57 < Radix-wrk> pfft.. I can give you one that needs it
07:58 <@preaction> if it needs it that badly, i'll just Do it :p
07:58 < Hinrik> preaction: how many people are working on WebGUI?
07:58 < Radix-wrk> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/search-asset-returns-urls#dJFHM0zCgZF6FkF00Z07uA
07:59 < Radix-wrk> It's been rated difficult it seems - so even though I've pumped heaps into it it's still ranked low
07:59 <@preaction> either difficult or "JT no likey"
07:59 < Radix-wrk> Without it though, search is pretty crappy at best
08:00 <@preaction> it does sound a little difficult though, what page should we get? what if it's not part of a page layout?
08:00 <@preaction> should we just return the parent of the asset unless the asset is of a certain type? (page layout, wiki, calendar, etc...)
08:01 < Radix-wrk> that'd work
08:01 <@preaction> optional, i suppose
08:01 <@preaction> well, doesn't the search return Threads instead of Posts?
08:03 <@preaction> at any rate, i should get some exercise in before sleep and waking up in 8 hours. the stupid 7.3.6 failure means i don't have clean clothes or groceries...
08:04 < Radix-wrk> Good luck convincing the gf :)
08:04  * Radix-wrk whistles innocently.
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09:39 < Radix-wrk> Well I'm off guys - Australia day tomorrow so you won't hear much from me for the next few days ;)
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16:24 < greghacke> Morning.
16:25 <@rizen> afternoon
16:25 < greghacke> That too...  Ever realize there are people out there who use Lotus Notes for selling products online?
16:28 < greghacke> on another note - where the JAVA tool is nice, is there a better IRC app to log in with?
16:31 < ckotil> on windows theres mIRC
16:31 < ckotil> osx has colloquy
16:31 < ckotil> unix has irssi, bitchx
16:34 < greghacke> i've got bitchx on my nix box.  on my laptop - trying mIRC
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16:37 < greghacke> which server should I hit for access to the #webgui channel?
16:37 < ckotil> irc.freenode.net
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16:47 < pjesi> afternoon
16:48 < pjesi> Hinrik: why should you want to use TT over HTML::Template?
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17:00 < greghacke> T::T provides much greater flexibility over the HTML::Template especially in the creation of Virtual Methods, filters and variable bindings
17:00 < greghacke> learning curve is of course higher
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17:54  * PedersenMJ waves.
18:19 < ckotil> are there any good docs for running a webgui backup server? 
18:19 < pjesi> greghacke: why should you want that in the presentation
18:20 < ckotil> im thinking setting up load balancing between two servers will basically function as a backup server.
18:21 < pjesi> you want two mysql instances as well?
18:22 < ckotil> yes, we will have 2 instances of mysql
18:23 < pjesi> you can rsync the filesystem and look at mysql docs on how to mirror it
18:23 < ckotil> we're worried about replicating webgui's files. and what the best way to do this would be.
18:24 < pjesi> ok, I suggest rsync the wb files
18:24 < pjesi> wg even
18:36 < greghacke> pj: sorry for the delay - I use it for technical documentation.  as I create tiers of list items, I use it to create the item numbers
18:36 < ckotil> then theres the matter of resyncing hte back up to the main webgui instance.
18:37 < greghacke> pj: in tech docs, I will have a section 9.1.4.11.7 and I want it to say that vice having to crawl up the page to find out where I am.  I use TT to build it
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19:35 < pjesi> k
19:37 < greghacke> There are other functions, that's just one I use.
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20:21 < wgGuest25> hi
20:21 <+perlDreamer> howdy
20:21 < wgGuest25> I upgraded to 7.3.6 yesterday and after that, I deleted my Calendars (there were just a couple of events in them)
20:22 < wgGuest25> Now I need to follow those special patch steps?
20:22 <+perlDreamer> I don't know
20:22 <+perlDreamer> I haven't read the release notes yet.
20:22 < wgGuest25> :(
20:25 < wgGuest25> I mean those steps apply also to brand new calendars created with 7.3.6? Shouldn't be so
20:26 < xdanger> rizen: just a thought... why not add "tagging-system" for every asset via metadata?
20:27 < xdanger> or at that style
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20:38 < xdanger> he didn't like the idea ?-)
20:39 < ckotil> heh
20:39 < ckotil> what would the tagging system do?
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20:39 < xdanger> There was talk on the dev-list about tags in wiki...
20:39 < ckotil> ah.
20:40 < xdanger> It could be a nice addition to cs and wiki, maybe even articles...
20:40 < xdanger> kinda like metadata is at the moment for some things..
20:41 <+perlDreamer> maybe it's exactly like metadata...
20:44 < xdanger> But there could be some functionality for the end luser... like finding cs-posts with tag "cat"
20:44 < ckotil> yeah. 
20:45 < xdanger> I've implemented cs with categories for our clients site...
20:45 < ckotil> or ad metadata to file assets so that you can perform more advance search on them. e.g. search by date, author, topic, etc...
20:45 <+perlDreamer> you can add metadata to file assets already,can't you?
20:46 <+perlDreamer> use the metadata tab on the edit screen?
20:46 < ckotil> im going to need to find a automatic'ish way of adding meta data to my file assets (weekly outage reports)
20:46 < ckotil> yeah i know. but i need to do it programmatically
20:47 < ckotil> i have a utility script that a cgi script calls to insert files into webgui. i can pry add the code in the utility to add the meta data
20:47 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:47 <+perlDreamer> if it's in the UI, you can do it through the API
20:47 < ckotil> :] its wikd awsome.
20:49 <@snapcount> who broke the tests this time?
20:49  * snapcount taps his foot with a hand on his hip
20:49 <+perlDreamer> Am I 3 for 3?
20:49 <@snapcount> or the code that we're testing
20:49 <+perlDreamer> haven't seen the smoke tests yet
20:49 <+perlDreamer> clue me in, dude
20:49 <@snapcount> t/Session/Var
20:49 <@snapcount> lastPageView set correctly
20:49 <@snapcount> 3 <= 1
20:50 <@snapcount> and same for expires set correctly
20:50 <+perlDreamer> let me finish fixing this bug, and I'll have a look at it
20:51 <@snapcount> cool
20:51 <+perlDreamer> has anyone done any work in that area recently? Session stuff?
20:51 <+perlDreamer> did it fail yesterday?
20:51 <@snapcount> I haven't looked yet
20:51 <@snapcount> Well, it didn't fail when I ran it before the release this morning
20:52 <+perlDreamer> there was a commit to Asset.pm today
20:52 <@snapcount> but the smoketest reported it
20:52 <+perlDreamer> what time did the smoke test run?
20:52 <@snapcount> doh
20:52 <@snapcount> looks like it's already fixed
20:52 <@snapcount> email came at like 6a and I ran the test several hours after that
20:53 <+perlDreamer> what fixed it?
20:53 <@snapcount> and it's passing now
20:53 <@snapcount> I don't know
20:53 <@snapcount> we should probably invest-a-magate eh
20:53 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:53 <+perlDreamer> almost done here
20:53 <+perlDreamer> I need to write another huge code scanning test for bad template variables
20:56 <+perlDreamer> uh, is PB okay?
20:57 <@snapcount> what do you mean?
20:57 < ckotil> i can access the website fine
20:57 <@snapcount> can't you get the current asset from the session?
20:57 <@snapcount> $session->asset?
20:57 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: yes
20:58 <@snapcount> is that the syntax?
20:58 <+perlDreamer> I raced spectre and won.  I clicked on Reply on a Post and got the main page instead of a form
20:58 <+perlDreamer> yes
20:58 <@snapcount> ty
21:00 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: do you know if SVN time is kept in UTC?
21:01 <@snapcount> I don't know wth it is
21:01 <@snapcount> I can tell you it's not my timezone for sure =P
21:02 <@snapcount> always wondered about that though
21:02 <+perlDreamer> There's been no commits to Session for a long time
21:03 <+perlDreamer> snapcount, those tests do delta time checks
21:03 <+perlDreamer> they could occasionally fail 
21:03 <+perlDreamer> I'll see if they can be robustified
21:05 <+perlDreamer> the real question is why would it take 2 seconds to execute 6-8 lines of test code?
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21:07 < xdanger> snapcount: when will you fix (or try to) the rss bug in the SVN::Web ?-)
21:09 <@snapcount> uhh
21:09 <@snapcount> I'm guessing it's something I promised to fix and forgot about?
21:09 <@snapcount> or no
21:09 <@snapcount> cuz it rings no bells.
21:09 <+perlDreamer> We didn't write that module.  If there's a bug, we should either upgrade or you could  post a bug back to the author.
21:10 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: robustification complete
21:12 < wgGuest25> any reply for me? :(
21:13 <@rizen> wgGuest25, yes
21:13 <@rizen> if you had calendars before the upgrade
21:13 <@rizen> you need to redo
21:13 <@rizen> cuz there will be broken data in your database
21:13 <@rizen> even if you deleted those assets
21:13 < wgGuest25> I had but I deleted them afterwards because they were not important...
21:14 < wgGuest25> oh...
21:15 < wgGuest25> but why that? Doesn't WebGUI delete also the database portions of them when you delete?
21:15 <@rizen> just trust me
21:15 < wgGuest25> ok
21:16 < wgGuest25> so the issue was at the calendar core not just regarding migration from old events calendar
21:18 < wgGuest25> I don't know if I have time to do that this week... It's ok to follow those steps also when 7.3.8 will be released?
21:19 <@rizen> you have to restore from backup
21:19 <@rizen> so you can't wait or you'll lose data
21:20 < wgGuest25> true :(
21:20 <@rizen> anything that is added to the site or modified between when you did the upgrade
21:20 <@rizen> and when you do the restore
21:21 < wgGuest25> So "Congratulations Doug!" up there seems rather hironic
21:22 <+perlDreamer> Congrats has to do with nominated as PBWG
21:22 <+perlDreamer> we all make mistakes
21:22 <+perlDreamer> and should have the grace to accept them from others
21:22 < wgGuest25> I know I read the interview
21:23 < PedersenMJ> Wow, this one sounds really bad. Without trying to dig into the what: I've got an instance of 7.3.5 in which I've just added a calendar. I was going to go to 7.3.7 this weekend. How bad will the issues be, or do I need to read them?
21:23 <+perlDreamer> Read them
21:23 < PedersenMJ> read them... meant to say do I need to redo them?
21:24 <@rizen> if you didn't add any calendars until after you're on 7.3 then there will be no problems
21:24 <@rizen> likewise, if you only have one site in your webgui server
21:24 <@rizen> you won't have any problems
21:25 < wgGuest25> rizen: really? I also have one site
21:25 <@rizen> then you're fine
21:25 < wgGuest25> so I don't have to follow those steps? I can just upgrade to 7.3.7?
21:26 <@rizen> yes
21:26 < wgGuest25> cool thanks!
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21:40 < PedersenMJ> Sorry for that idle. Thank you very much, that's quite a relief, actually.
21:49 -!- mode/#webgui [+o perlDreamer] by rizen
21:55 < greghacke> rizen - you still out there?
21:56 <@rizen> sometimes
22:04 <@snapcount> did we just hire Colin?
22:04 <@snapcount> please say yes
22:05 <@rizen> to replace you
22:05 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
22:05 < snapcount> the way today has been it might actually be a relief
22:05 -!- mode/#webgui [+v snapcount] by rizen
22:05 <+snapcount> put me out of my misery... the pitty killing
22:06 <@rizen> what has been so hard for you today?
22:06 <+snapcount> people
22:06 <+snapcount> nothing technical or task related
22:06 <+snapcount> I'm having a bad day
22:07 <+snapcount> a really bad one actually... the kind that fester in your mind and eat at your soul
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22:07 <@snapcount> sheesh
22:07 <@perlDreamer> He resurrected!
22:07 <@perlDreamer> no way
22:08 <@snapcount> quick to flex those new found muscles
22:08 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by snapcount
22:18 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version: 7.3.7 ... preaction the diplomat
22:49 <@preaction> there were two months for people to try the new calendar, two months for them to realize that it was RADICALLY different from the previous calendar, and finally NOW that they've been forced to do it, they have issues...
22:50 <@perlDreamer> what I don't get is how many people gripe about bugs, but either don't fix them themselves or pony up to have them fixed.
22:52 <@preaction> amen to that
22:52 <@preaction> JT found another issue with the upgrade, but this one is fixable after-the-fact thank god
22:52 < PedersenMJ> Hey, preaction: My two cents on the calendar? I like it. Thank you.
22:53 <@perlDreamer> is the new issue documented in the announcement?
22:53 <@preaction> you're welcome, it was an ordeal and i believe someone else said it best: I did it the first time to see how to do it, I'd like to do it again to do it right
22:53 <@preaction> i'll make a bug report there if there isn't already
22:57 < PedersenMJ> My *sole* issue with the calendar was my own fault. Basically, a stylesheet issue with the Burned theme. Which, I might add, I've already fixed.
22:58 <@preaction> can you think of any major problems with those things existing?
22:58 <@preaction> i think i'll have to go through and migrate all the calendars again, this time making sure to include the clipboard, trash, and any other special states
23:03 <@preaction> uhm. those assets can't be instanciated since there's no longer an EventsCalendar table.
23:13  * perlDreamer is offline, afk for chow
23:16 < greghacke> I like the new calendar as well - so do my clients
23:16 <@preaction> once the kinks get exercised out, there are plenty of other wonderful things we're going to do with it
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23:40 <@preaction> i've got a total of four tables i need to delete from, and that's all i can think of: asset, assetData, wobject, and assetIndex (the Events don't have entries in the wobject table)
--- Day changed Fri Jan 26 2007
00:01 < xdanger> preaction: is there an approval system with the new calendar?
00:02 < rizen_> yes
00:02 <@preaction> for user-edited events? no, but the code is there. all that's necessary is for a configuration value to be shown on the edit calendar, and the code updated to reflect that
00:02 < rizen_> it works just like the CS
00:02 < rizen_> what?
00:02 < rizen_> that was supposed to be added
00:02 <@preaction> there's no select box to select which workflow yet
00:02 < rizen_> that was on the spec
00:03 < rizen_> please add that for your todo list for 7.3.8
00:03 <@preaction> indeed
00:03 < rizen_> it's not complete without that
00:03 <@preaction> luckily it should be simple enough with the new autocommit code
00:04 < rizen_> yeah, it should only be a couple lines of code
00:06 < xdanger> yey!
00:06 < xdanger> I can then convert my cs-made-to-calendar crap to that =D
00:06 <@preaction> would there be an issue with this code for, say, 10,000 events that need to be deleted? "select assetId from asset where className="WebGUI::Asset::Event" and assetId NOT IN (select assetId from Event)"
00:07 <@preaction> i've run it on a site with 1000 events that need to be deleted, and it runs in 0.01 seconds
00:07 < xdanger> now if only it had some categories, or tags or such =)
00:07 < rizen_> no idea
00:07 < rizen_> but i'm guessing no
00:07 < rizen_> Jukka, you're a coder aren't you?
00:07 <@preaction> i'm thinking that the keys are proper, and as long as i'm using the keys it should be fine, so it goes in
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00:08 < xdanger> rizen_: some, not my favorite thing...
00:08 <@preaction> aww, coding is life
00:08 <@rizen> oh, i thought you were
00:08 < xdanger> not fulltime... mostly customer and leader stuff these days...
00:09 < xdanger> but have a big project comming, so I think that it'll be something like 70% coding/working on that project and 30% else...
00:10 <@rizen> i was going to say you should add the features you want when we branch for 7.4
00:10 <@rizen> or better yet, help us fix bugs so we can branch for 7.4 faster
00:10 <@perlDreamer> need a double check
00:10 <@perlDreamer> no underscores in template variable names?
00:11 <@rizen> no, that's fine
00:11 <@rizen> just no dots
00:11 <@perlDreamer> Okay.  Thanks :)
00:11 <@perlDreamer> The coding guidelines say no underscores.  I'll update it
00:11 <@perlDreamer> oh, no I won't
00:11 <@perlDreamer> the wiki doesn't work in Mozilla 1.4
00:12 <@rizen> are there any languages you can think of that _ cause a problem
00:12 <@rizen> when in variable names 
00:12 <@rizen> or subroutines
00:12 < xdanger> rizen: I have added... we have our own "extented collaboration system"... and a few diff's here and there... I can show you them if you want to here... Some of them are just to get around some problems that are specific to our clients site...
00:12 <@rizen> xdanger: i'm talking about contributing to the core
00:13 <@perlDreamer> I only know HT, HTE and TT.  I could check Mason real quick.
00:13 <@rizen> not talking about templating language
00:13 < xdanger> s/if you want to here/if you want to hear/
00:13 <@rizen> i'm talking about programming langs
00:13 <@perlDreamer> none
00:13 <@rizen> then underscores are fine
00:13 <@perlDreamer> almost all of them I know of treat _ as a valid "word" character
00:13 <@perlDreamer> maybe befunge...
00:14 <@perlDreamer> nope, it only pukes on arrows
00:14 <@perlDreamer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge
00:43 <@preaction> rizen: should I fix the 7.2.3-7.3.0 upgrade anyway? for those who haven't upgraded yet?
00:43  * perlDreamer crosses his fingers
00:44 <@preaction> in regards to the EC on the trash/clipboard
00:44 <@rizen> sure
00:44 <@preaction> k
00:44 <@rizen> as long as you won't screw anything up
00:44 <@rizen> when your code is run
00:44 <@rizen> in the 7.3.8
00:44 <@rizen> upgrade
00:44 <@preaction> nope, it only deletes things if they're verified to be broken
00:47 <@perlDreamer> w.r.t the Project Manager, what is Lag Time?
01:20 <@perlDreamer> if anyone had a little spare time, I could use some help with i18n work on WebGUI core templates
01:21 <@perlDreamer> basically, what needs to be done is to go through each template one by one and identify words in English.
01:21 <@perlDreamer> then we go through and replace them with internationalized labels
01:21 <@perlDreamer> the hard part is the template cruising
01:21 <@rizen> i disagree
01:22 <@perlDreamer> why for?
01:22 <@rizen> just cuz
01:22 <@perlDreamer> oh, okay
01:22 <@rizen> where cuz is a good reason
01:22 <@rizen> a really really good reason
01:22 <@perlDreamer> So long as you aren't calling Vito and Tommy Knuckles
01:23 <@rizen> no, but would you consider performance a good enough reason
01:23 <@perlDreamer> I hadn't thought about performance
01:23 <@perlDreamer> so wG isn't fully i18n'ed?
01:23 <@rizen> well i have this ingenius plan
01:23 <@rizen> but im not sure it will work
01:23 <@rizen> cuz i have a flaw in my plan
01:23 <@preaction> when trying to fix the issue of EC on the clipboard, the EC state gets changed to "published" by the upgrade script. how do I make it not do that?
01:24 <@rizen> find out what's changing the state
01:24 <@rizen> somewhere along the way something must be calling $asset->publish
01:25 <@preaction> k
01:25 <@perlDreamer> plan on, rizen
01:25 <@rizen> well...i've been thinking that we always load all these variables
01:25 <@rizen> even when nobody is using them
01:25 <@rizen> would it make more sense to use a macro to fetch them
01:26 <@rizen> ^International("something","Events_Calendar');
01:26 <@rizen> or whatever
01:26 <@rizen> because then we're only fetching the ones we need
01:26 <@perlDreamer> would the overhead of Macro processing beat not creating all the labels?
01:26 <@rizen> and we're not passing so much data through the template engine
01:26 <@rizen> methinks that speed wise it would break even
01:27 <@rizen> but where we win is on memory usage
01:27 <@rizen> we're not making copies of all those lables in memory
01:27 < PedersenMJ> Would that break existing templates?
01:27 <@perlDreamer> we'd have to translate them
01:28 <@rizen> yeah, we'd translate them
01:28 <@perlDreamer> but rizen has a regexp/text hacking genius that he calls up for projects like this
01:28 <@rizen> but here's the major flaw in my hand
01:28 <@rizen> plan
01:28 <@rizen> not hand
01:28 < PedersenMJ> How about custom templates? Rather, styles (such as the ones I've recently made)
01:28 <@rizen> brain not working
01:28 <@rizen> all templates would be fixed, now shhhh
01:29 <@rizen> the major flaw is that if they were all fetched by i18n macro, how would the users know which ones were available for fetching
01:29 <@perlDreamer> we'd have to make a new doc page with available labels
01:29 <@perlDreamer> just like we do now for templates
01:29 <@perlDreamer> it's not that bad
01:30 <@perlDreamer> a variables section and a labels section
01:31 <@rizen> phone
01:31 <@perlDreamer> we should add Macro level caching.  It might speed things up with that idea.
01:33 <@perlDreamer> think about processing a chain of Posts.  Each post would still be calling Macro with identical labels N times (one for each one in the displayed section of the Thread).
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02:02 <@rizen> orry
02:02 <@rizen> back
02:02 <@rizen> macro caching will only slow it down
02:02 <@perlDreamer> okay, so Macros vs template labels for i18n
02:02 <@rizen> the fields are already in memory
02:02 <@rizen> there's nothing to cache
02:02 <@perlDreamer> every time you call International, it creates a new i18n object
02:03 <@rizen> yeah, and if you call cache it has to create a WebGUI::Cache object
02:03 <@rizen> you're not saving anything
02:03 <@perlDreamer> oh
02:03 <@perlDreamer> not that kind of cache
02:03 <@perlDreamer> a Stow cache
02:03 <@perlDreamer> in memory, transient
02:03 <@perlDreamer> built for each session
02:03 <@rizen> ok well that might work...but let's not get ahead of our sevles
02:04 <@perlDreamer> sure, one step at a time.  Functionality before performance and all that
02:04 <@rizen> first how do we deal with the fact that the labels aren't in the templates anymore
02:04 <@rizen> from a users perspective
02:04 <@rizen> how do they know what labels are available
02:04 <@perlDreamer> the same way that we do for template variables
02:04 <@perlDreamer> especially with the template variable editor
02:05 <@perlDreamer> it makes these questions easier
02:05 <@rizen> actually, couldn't we just expose every variable in the namespace to the person
02:05 <@perlDreamer> every i18n variable?
02:05 <@rizen> who are we to say that they shouldn't be able to use some other label
02:05 <@rizen> every i18n label in the same namespace
02:05 <@rizen> as the object
02:05 <@rizen> that's using the template
02:06 <@rizen> so if it's a calendar template
02:07 <@rizen> then all the variables in Asset_Calendar
02:07 <@perlDreamer> from i18n/Language/Asset_Calendar.pm
02:07 <@perlDreamer> and then all of them from WebGUI, since that's the fallback if it can't be found in the current namespace
02:08 <@rizen> why do that though?
02:08 <@rizen> why not just show them all variables?
02:08 <@rizen> in that namespace
02:08 <@perlDreamer> I'm a little confused.  Do you mean template vars or i18n variables?
02:08 <@rizen> forget everything i've just said
02:09 <@rizen> let me start over
02:09  * perlDreamer ->flush
02:09 <@rizen> a) template variables no longer contain any i18n labels
02:09 <@perlDreamer> check
02:09 <@rizen> b)  template help displays all the data variables
02:09 <@perlDreamer> check
02:10 <@rizen> c) template help has a seperate section on the same page  that lists all of the i18n variables, like this:
02:10 <@rizen> ^International("some thing", "Asset_Calendar"); = Some Thing
02:10 <@perlDreamer> $dayJob
02:10 <@rizen> and it lists EVERY SINGLE MESSAGE in the Asset_Calendar i18n file
02:19 <@preaction> i've submitted my patch to the 7.2.3-7.3.0 upgrade that ensures that EC in clipboard/trash get migrated, but they still get published
02:20 <@preaction> i've been over every piece of code that updates the "state" field, none of it gets called by "commit", "addChild", or "addRevision"
02:20 <@rizen> why are they not deleted?
02:20 <@rizen> i told you i just wanted anything in there to be deleted
02:20 <@rizen> how hard is that
02:20 <@preaction> that's what the 7.3.7-7.3.8 will do, if there are orphans
02:20 <@rizen> don't use the asset api
02:20 <@rizen> ok
02:20 <@preaction> i asked if you wanted me to fix the 7.2.3-7.3.0 upgrade, you said yes
02:20 <@rizen> yup
02:21 <@rizen> instead of publishing the ones in the trash
02:21 <@rizen> delete them
02:21 <@rizen> just purge
02:21 <@preaction> ok
02:21 <@rizen> the clipboard ones are fine
02:21 <@preaction> if they get published?
02:24 <@perlDreamer> There are 184 i18n labels for the DataForm, as an example of how much data users will have to wade through
02:25 <@perlDreamer> Less in an Article
02:25 <@perlDreamer> Much, much more in the Post and CS
02:25 <@rizen> preaction: yes
02:26 <@preaction> k
02:26 <@perlDreamer> Also, some labels have been specially designed to go with certain fields, etc.  It would be hard to pick those out from a list.
02:26 <@rizen> pd: yeah, but who are we to say what fields might be useful to the user making the template
02:26 <@rizen> pd: all of them might be useful
02:27 <@rizen> also don't forget that in most cases
02:27 <@rizen> people either copy and modify an existing template
02:27 <@rizen> or just type in their own labels anyway
02:28 <@perlDreamer> Could we prevent showing the Help topic titles, bodies and hoverHelp?
02:31 <@rizen> how would we do that
02:31 <@perlDreamer> They'd have to be tagged somehow, or cross referenced through the Help system
02:31 <@rizen> yeah, but that's what i want to avoid
02:31 <@rizen> no cross-referencing
02:31 <@rizen> it adds work
02:32 <@rizen> my way adds no work, and actually reduces the amount of code everywhere
02:32 <@rizen> and i don't think it hurts anyway
02:32 <@rizen> for example
02:32 <@rizen> let's say we're dealing with a post template of some sort
02:32 <@rizen> you may want to use the hover help
02:32 <@rizen> in your template
02:32 <@rizen> as help for the fields the users are posting
02:33 <@rizen> it may not be likely
02:33 <@rizen> but what does it hurt to have them there
02:33 <@rizen> someone went through all the trouble of creating them
02:33 <@rizen> and someone else probably translated them
02:33 <@rizen> so why the hell not show them
02:34 <@perlDreamer> too much is usually better than not enough
02:35 <@perlDreamer> and the worst that will happen is that the help entries for templates get huge
02:35 <@rizen> they're already huge anyway
02:35 <@rizen> but at least this way the data parts are separated from the label parts
02:35 <@perlDreamer> yes
02:35 <@rizen> so it's easy to find the important stuff
02:36 <@perlDreamer> and the default templates would be a guide for what to do
02:36 <@rizen> yup
02:36 <@rizen> so now we have to test
02:36 <@rizen> i'm not sure how
02:36 <@perlDreamer> but, in order for the conversion to work, don't all the templates need to be fully i18n'ed?
02:36 <@rizen> that i'm right
02:36 <@rizen> that speed woudl be equal
02:36 <@rizen> and memory would be reduced
02:36 <@perlDreamer> don't you already have benchmarking code for speed?
02:37 <@rizen> yes...but how do you separate out just the memory used by the template processing
02:37 <@rizen> with and without the labels
02:37 <@perlDreamer> that's gotta be pretty small
02:37 <@perlDreamer> we're talking about 10-15 hash keys
02:38 <@rizen> so are you saying this isn't worth it?
02:38 <@perlDreamer> no
02:38 <@perlDreamer> I'm saying that speed is probably the better trade-off, and less code.
02:38 <@rizen> ok well then i guess i'll test the speed quick
02:40 <@perlDreamer> I'm noticing a pattern
02:40 <@perlDreamer> First, you get hammered by (support, business, conference, bugs)
02:40 <@perlDreamer> Then you get what sounds like a whacky idea
02:40 <@perlDreamer> that actually turns out to be awesome
02:41 <@rizen> when has this happened before?
02:41 <@perlDreamer> Content chunking during 6.x
02:41 <@perlDreamer> Hover help
02:41 <@perlDreamer> Wiki
02:41 <@rizen> hmm...those are all good ideas. maybe we should do that
02:42 <@rizen> =)
02:42 <@perlDreamer> Well, in order to get revolutionary gains in wG you need to get stomped on.
02:42 <@rizen> i don't think so
02:42 <@rizen> i have done lots of stuff without getting stomped on
02:42 <@perlDreamer> Okay, we'll pass on that one and just stick to the Macro idea for now.
02:43 <@rizen> and honestly...i'd get a lot more done if i wasn't getting killed with other work like support and business stuff
02:43 <@perlDreamer> 'tis true
02:43 <@rizen> did you see how many support requests came in today?
02:43 <@perlDreamer> yes
02:43 <@rizen> amazing
02:43 <@perlDreamer> I wrote a Wiki entry so that you won't have to answer Icon questions ever again
02:45 <@rizen> nice
02:45 <@rizen> thanks
02:46 <@perlDreamer> have you done any work on Kristi's package content bug?
02:48 <@rizen> i started on it
02:48 <@rizen> didn't get anywhere
02:48 <@rizen> just proved that she's right
02:48 <@perlDreamer> I went and disected a package that I exported.
02:48 <@perlDreamer> It looks good, so it's in the deployment
02:49 <@rizen> well since making something a package is just a single field in a single table
02:49 <@rizen> that's obvious
02:49 <@rizen> =)
02:50 <@perlDreamer> and I thought that it referred to imported packages.
02:51 <@perlDreamer> oh well
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02:51 <@rizen> quick everybody get out
02:51 <@rizen> he's here!!
02:51 <@perlDreamer> I'm heading home.  We'll catch you later tonight
02:51 <@rizen> run for your lives!!!!
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02:52 <+crythias> who, me?
02:52 <+crythias> heh
02:52 <@rizen> yeah you
02:52 <@rizen> who else could invoke such fear in me
02:53 <+crythias> hm... iPG?
02:53 <@rizen> i don't fear him...just want to kill him
02:53 <+crythias> ah.
02:54 <+crythias> well, um.. I don't have the keys to the kingdom anymore, I'm not giving too much advice, bad or otherwise, and basically...I'm kinda who the heck is that guy at the moment.
02:54 <@rizen> why is that?
02:54 <@rizen> you were good
02:54 <@rizen> even great for the community
02:55 <+crythias> I've been so busy at work doing everything everything and I just can't focus on WebGUI as much as I would like. I haven't even upgraded my personal sites since 6.8.7
02:56 <@rizen> whoa
02:56 <@rizen> i'm sorry to hear you've been so busy
02:56 <@rizen> unless you want to be that busy
02:57 <+crythias> somehow in my upgrades I lost all my discussions in one of the sites, but since that wasn't a big issue, and the reason it existed (google answers commentors forum) is .. not so much the thing anymore... meh.
02:58 <+crythias> and I've been beastly coughing-sick for the past week.
02:58 <+crythias> out of $job for 3 days.
02:58 <@rizen> crappy
03:00 <+crythias> a busy release and recovery...
03:00 <+crythias> (I see you've encountered)
03:01 <@preaction> twas fun!
03:01 <+crythias> I somewhat belatedly updated my faq, just in case anyone relied on my site for that info.
03:01 <+crythias> (ie: just about 30 minutes ago)
03:03 <@rizen> i hear people talking about it
03:03 <@rizen> so i'm sure some people use it
03:04 <+crythias> rizen: I have an idea about using an imagemagick script to make those three-d bubblethings on the fly around/about navigation or something.
03:04 <+crythias> "aqua buttons"
03:05 <@rizen> shoot
03:05 <+crythias> that is, I'm trying to "create" it...
03:05 <+crythias> but I don't know how to best use it.
03:06 <+crythias> If I make it for navigation, should all nav buttons be the same size?
03:06 <@rizen> then i guess you better back up, cuz i haven't heard an idea yet
03:06 <@rizen> what's the idea?
03:07 <+crythias> the idea is to use either a macro or css to make stuff "aquaish" on the fly.
03:07 <@rizen> oh
03:07 <@rizen> so you're saying all the links in your nav
03:07 <@rizen> would become icons
03:07 <@rizen> rather than text
03:07 <@rizen> or rather image buttons
03:07 <@rizen> like in OSX
03:08 <+crythias> they would be text with aquabutton backgrounds and rounded edges on left and right
03:08 <@rizen> you can use css to do that and no image magick and it would run faster
03:08 <+crythias> Actually, I think I've solved that part. yeah.
03:09 <+crythias> I've been trying to figure out the watermark issue as well.
03:10 <+crythias> there's no problem with ImageMagick to make a watermark, anymore than making a thumbnail.
03:11 <@rizen> what do you mean by watermark?
03:11 <+crythias> for an image/photo that's uploaded, (seen on mytube.com)
03:12 <+crythias> a "branding" of the image once uploaded. 
03:12 <@rizen> why would you want to do that on nav?
03:12 <+crythias> no. :( sorry. I changed subjects.
03:12 <@rizen> damn man...going to fast for me
03:12 <@rizen> s/to/too
03:13 <+crythias> an rfe was posted a LONG while ago to be able to apply watermarks to uploaded images (photo gallery)
03:13 <@rizen> yeah, without modifying the core, i don't see how you could do this
03:14 <+crythias> I was thinking macro ^WM(/friendlypath);
03:15 <+crythias> but that's horrible.
03:15 <@rizen> you can do that, but the problem is that it will create the watermark every single time
03:15 <@rizen> cuz it won't know that the image is already watermarked
03:15 <@rizen> it really needs to be done once at upload time
03:16 <+crythias> I agree, and then the other things come into play... text or image watermark? where? what about contrast?
03:16 <+crythias> font? color? size?
03:17 <@rizen> yeah it's going to be a lot of stuff
03:17 <@rizen> and every site will be different
03:19 <+crythias> although, I could suggest that it'd be something like "Create your transparent background .png of 100px wide by 64 px tall and put it in ^extras/uploads/watermark.png"
03:19 <+crythias> whatever
03:22 <@rizen> so why is this important?
03:22 <+crythias> if the image thumbnail thing finds the watermark.jpg, and the size of the image is > (something) then apply the watermark and store it as (the original|the original + the watermarked)
03:22 <+crythias> it's not important
03:22 <@rizen> so why do you want it?
03:22 <@rizen> why are you working on it?
03:22 <@rizen> or thinking about it?
03:22 <+crythias> because it seemed like something fun to do at first.
03:23 <+crythias> I *wanted* to do this.
03:23 <+crythias> Now, I can't really see how it'd be effective. I'd almost suggest someone do it in a batch in the filesystem and not worry about WebGUI doing it.
03:24 <@rizen> i can see that if we ever did a photo gallery asset that it would definitely be useful
03:24 <@rizen> but as a general purpose thing, i don't think so
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04:13 <@rizen> ok pd, ran the test
04:13 <+perlDreamer> and the results are
04:13 <+perlDreamer> <drumroll>
04:13 <@rizen> it is slightly smaller amounts of ram
04:13 <@rizen> which we expected
04:14 <@rizen> and...as far as speed
04:14 <@rizen> ....
04:14 <@rizen> ....
04:14 <@rizen> ....
04:14 <@rizen> ...
04:14 <@rizen> can you feel the tention in the air
04:14 <@rizen> ....
04:14 <@rizen> ...
04:14 <@rizen> ...
04:14 <@rizen> 0.011308
04:14 <@rizen> 0.01563
04:14 <+perlDreamer> tention, that's when you tent fabric is too tight
04:14 <@rizen> guess which is which
04:14 <+perlDreamer> 0.011 is Macros
04:14 <@rizen> indeed
04:14 <+perlDreamer> 30%, not bad
04:14 <@rizen> i ran it a dozen times
04:15 <@rizen> came out roughly the same every time
04:15 <+perlDreamer> Macros it is then
04:15 <@rizen> so..what that comes down to
04:15 <@rizen> is leave stuff the way it is
04:15 <@rizen> and we'll do this in 7.4
04:16 <+perlDreamer> you sure?  If I i18n it all now, then it will get autoconverted in 7.4
04:16 <+perlDreamer> or is it better to fix bugs?
04:16 <@rizen> the faster we fix bugs
04:16 <@rizen> the faster we can get to 7.4
04:16 <+perlDreamer> bugs it is
04:16 <+perlDreamer> I'm going to write a test for the package thing
04:16 <@rizen> i'm going to work on the open/close bug now
04:26 <+perlDreamer> we should also update the copyright notices on the files in the core
04:27 <@rizen> oh yeah, i have a script to do that
04:37 <@rizen> frank broke it!!!
04:37 <@rizen> wahoo...now we can get him off his high horse
04:37 <@rizen> =)
04:37 <+perlDreamer> the open/close bug?
04:37 <@rizen> yup
04:37 <@rizen> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI%20SVN/diff/WebGUI/lib/WebGUI/AssetLineage.pm?revs=3603&revs=3441
04:39 <+perlDreamer> I need a little mixin help
04:39 <@rizen> put the flour, egg, and milk in a bowl
04:39 <+perlDreamer> nm
04:39 <@rizen> then stir
04:39 <+perlDreamer> I can't spell
04:48 <+perlDreamer> can I deploy uncommitted assets?
04:48 <@rizen> i don't know, can you?
04:48 <@rizen> the answer is no
04:48 <@rizen> or at least you're not supposed to be able to
04:54 <+perlDreamer> you're right you can't
04:54 <@rizen> i'mnot sure how, but what frank did is kicking me in the nuts
04:55 <+perlDreamer> that makes two of us, except Frank probably didn't break this one :)
04:55 <+perlDreamer> can I open two version tags on the same session variable?
04:56 <@rizen> you can have as many as you want...but you can only have 1 working tag
04:56 <@rizen> do you understand the difference?
04:56 <+perlDreamer> yes
04:56 <@rizen> k
04:57 <+perlDreamer> if I commit the current version tag, it should be useless from that point forward?
04:57 <@rizen> if you mean it will no longer be the working tag and a new one will be ccreated if you do something else
04:57 <@rizen> then yes
04:57 <@rizen> but it's not useless
04:57 <@rizen> it's still there
04:57 <@rizen> it's just commited
04:58 <+perlDreamer> well, here's what I'm up against
04:58 <+perlDreamer> whenever I work with assets on tests, I always use version tags
04:58 <+perlDreamer> but now, for the first time, I need two
04:58 <+perlDreamer> one for creation of Assets, then a second one to work under for the package deployment
04:59 <+perlDreamer> I probably just need to create a new one then call setWorking on it
04:59 <@rizen> it will automatically become your working tag
04:59 <@rizen> if you just do something that requires a tag
04:59 <+perlDreamer> on creation?
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05:00 <@rizen> not on creation of the tag
05:00 <@rizen> but if you do an addRevision
05:00 <@rizen> on an asset
05:00 <@rizen> that will create a tag
05:00 <@rizen> and set it working
05:00 <+perlDreamer> okay
05:00 <@rizen> and addRevision is called when addChild is called
05:00 <+perlDreamer> so I can pull the new tag after I deploy the package
05:01 <+perlDreamer> and then nuke it at the end
05:01 <@rizen> what is "pull"
05:01 <+perlDreamer> call getWorking
05:01 <@rizen> you can getWorkiong
05:01 <@rizen> ok
05:01 <@rizen> yes
05:01 <+perlDreamer> sorry, I'm still using too much slang
05:02 <@rizen> well if we were using the same slang it would be fine
05:02 <@rizen> but we're not
05:02 <+perlDreamer> coolio
05:02 <+perlDreamer> ?
05:02 <@rizen> coolio
05:04 <+perlDreamer> kid time
05:04 <+perlDreamer> be back in 40
05:34 <+perlDreamer> okay, I have a test that duplicates the problem
05:34 <+perlDreamer> analysis time
05:47 <+perlDreamer> will duplicate create an exact copy of the Asset, including the assetId?
05:47 <@rizen> sorry...with sarah
05:47 <@rizen> perfect duplicate, but not assetId
05:47 <@rizen> or lineage
05:47 <@rizen> or parentId
05:48 <@rizen> the data will be the same though
05:48 <@rizen> but i have to go
05:48 <@rizen> be back later
05:48 <+perlDreamer> okay
05:58 <@rizen> i'm dying over here
05:58 <@rizen> i was just finally over an upper resperatory infection
05:58 <+perlDreamer> I have the bug
05:58 <@rizen> yesterday
05:58 <@rizen> and today, i've got a new bug
05:58 <@rizen> with new symptoms
05:58 <@rizen> sarah got it yesterday
05:58 <@rizen> which means she gave it to me
05:59 <@rizen> she sux
05:59 <+perlDreamer> so what's the new one like?
06:00 <@rizen> cloudy head and super runny noes
06:00 <@rizen> nose
06:00 <@rizen> gone through 2 boxes of tissue and 1 roll of tp so far today
06:00 <@rizen> and you?
06:01 <+perlDreamer> the duplicate method is broken
06:01 <+perlDreamer> It causes headaches and backaches
06:01 <@rizen> why did you break duplicate
06:01 <+perlDreamer> it breaks really well
06:01 <+perlDreamer> when you dupe an asset, your original assetId gets trashed
06:01 <+perlDreamer> want to see?
06:02 <@rizen> i believe you
06:02 <@rizen> the original asset id in the original asset?
06:02 <+perlDreamer> yeah
06:02 <+perlDreamer> I created a snippet
06:02 <+perlDreamer> stored the id
06:02 <+perlDreamer> called dupe
06:02 <+perlDreamer> checked the assetId of dupe, and it's different from the stored original
06:03 <@rizen> it's supposed to be
06:03 <@rizen> i told you that
06:03 <+perlDreamer> checked the assetId of the original again, and it's the same as the dupe
06:03 <@rizen> oh
06:03 <@rizen> that's not
06:03 <@rizen> that's bad
06:03 <+perlDreamer> yeah
06:03 <+perlDreamer> can you make sure I didn't write a bad test, or are you still en-Sarah'ed?
06:04 <@rizen> i'll do a test
06:04 <@rizen> sarah has gone to bed
06:04 <@rizen> but my head is whoooooo
06:05 <+perlDreamer> over in the t directory do an SVN update and you'll see the AssetClipboard test I just committed
06:05 <+perlDreamer> set WEBGUI_CONFIG to your favorite WebGUI config file
06:05 <+perlDreamer> then perl AssetClipboard.t
06:07 <@rizen> you're right
06:07 <@rizen> screwd
06:09 <+perlDreamer> back into addChild
06:19 < PedersenMJ> Totally not related to the problem at hand, but still a question I should ask: When I submit this "Make Your Own WebGUI Style" article, I'm planning on including an actual conversion of an existing theme. I want to make sure the original zip file stays available (just in case). Any place I can upload to plainblack.com, or shall I just host it myself?
06:20 <@rizen> you're already uploading your conversions to the contribs area right?
06:20 <@rizen> so why wouldn't you just link to it?
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Of course. Didn't think of that.
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Attach the original zip, and the converted .wgpkg, and link. Simple. Thank you.
06:21 < PedersenMJ> Was thinking of how I was going to be pasting this article into the wiki, and wasn't thinking of contribs at the time.
06:22 <@rizen> if you have a problem, and if you can find them, and if no one else can help. maybe you can hire, the a-team!
06:22 < PedersenMJ> I ain't gettin' on no plane foo'!
06:22 <@rizen> i think i should have called plain black "the a-team"
06:22 <+perlDreamer> Who's Murdoch?
06:23 <@rizen> i'm all 4 of them, depending upon the second
06:23 <@rizen> i'm rick james bitch
06:23 <@rizen> sweet...rick james is in this episode
06:24 < PedersenMJ> BTW, here's the theme I'm going to convert for that article: http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/3694
06:24 < PedersenMJ> Reason: It's *very* simple, so people don't get bogged down in the harder details, and can focus on the conversion process more easily.
06:25 <+perlDreamer> is it URLs?
06:25 <@rizen> could someone please create 1000 pages of free documentation in the wiki quick
06:25 <@rizen> that way i wouldn't have to finish writing these commercial books
06:25 < PedersenMJ> Hey, I'm working on the docs. Only got about 990 pages to go.
06:25 < PedersenMJ> pd: I don't understand what you mean.
06:26 <+perlDreamer> I'm working on a bug with rizen
06:27 < PedersenMJ> Ah, okie.
06:27 <@rizen> you are
06:27 <@rizen> oh sorry pd
06:27 <@rizen> didn't mean to ignore you
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I understand
06:27 <@rizen> is what URLs?
06:27 <+perlDreamer> I'm trying to locate where $self gets stomped on
06:27 <@rizen> oh...i'll start looking
06:28 <@rizen> told you...brain not highly functional
06:28 <+perlDreamer> I know
06:28 <+perlDreamer> plus you have a thing for Rick James and George Peppard
06:29 <+perlDreamer> It's inside addChild
06:33 <@rizen> this doesn't seem to be possible
06:33 <+perlDreamer> I know
06:39 <@rizen> this flat out isn't possible
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06:41 <+perlDreamer> I'm stuck inside addChild
06:41 <@rizen> it can't even get that far
06:41 <+perlDreamer> I don't have any way to monitor the original inside there since we're really in the parent
06:41 <@rizen> there's no reference to self in add child
06:42 <+perlDreamer> I'm guessing that something in addChild stomps on the original
06:42 <+perlDreamer> but I check the assetId's right before the addChild call inside duplicate and it's fine there.
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         $self->session->errorHandler->warn("START RECORD");
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         $self->session->errorHandler->warn("myself: ".$self->getId);
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         #my $newAsset = $self->getParent->addChild($self->get, undef, undef, {skipAutoCommitWorkflows=>$options->{skipAutoCommitWorkflows}});
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         my $parent = $self->getParent;
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         $self->session->errorHandler->warn("myself: ".$self->getId);
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         my $newAsset = $parent->addChild($self->get, undef, undef, {skipAutoCommitWorkflows=>$options->{skipAutoCommitWorkflows}}, $self);
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         $self->session->errorHandler->warn("myself:  ".$self->getId);
06:44 <+perlDreamer>         $self->session->errorHandler->warn("hisself: ".$newAsset->getId);
06:44 <+perlDreamer> ew
06:44 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot: paste?
06:44 < gooeybot> i haven't a clue, perldreamer
06:44 <@rizen> why are you pasting
06:45 <+perlDreamer> I wanted to show you where I've added debug code inside of sub duplicate in AssetClipboard
06:45 <+perlDreamer> it has to be in or related to addChild
06:45 <+perlDreamer> adding a copy of yourself to your parent
06:45 <+perlDreamer> with the same exact properties, except for assetId
06:48 <@rizen> ahahahhaah
06:48 <@rizen> i know what it is
06:48 <@rizen> i win
06:48 <@rizen> i win
06:48 <+perlDreamer> do tell!
06:48 <+perlDreamer> tell me and I'll let you watch the end of the A-Team
06:49 <@rizen> wahoo i win
06:49 <@rizen> i'm better than pd
06:49 <@rizen> pd sux ass
06:49 <@rizen> =)
06:49 <@rizen> just kidding man
06:49 <+perlDreamer> I know
06:49 <+perlDreamer> but I'm dyin' here
06:49 <@rizen> i'll commit
06:50 <+perlDreamer> is it that simple?
06:50 <@rizen> fixed
06:50 <@rizen> and commited
06:51 <+perlDreamer> that's beautiful!
06:51 <+perlDreamer> now how many other places do we do that?
06:51 <@rizen> do you see why?
06:51 <+perlDreamer> yes
06:51 <+perlDreamer> referential problem
06:51 <@rizen> we probably do it all over
06:51 <@rizen> i don't know
06:52 <@rizen> so does fixing that flat out fix the packages bug?
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06:53 <+perlDreamer> I'll find out
06:54 <+perlDreamer> plus, this will make sure that roy isn't pissed tomorrow
06:54 <@rizen> oh no, he's back
06:54 <@rizen> it will?
06:54 <+perlDreamer> oh yeah
06:54 <+perlDreamer> he hates it when I break the smoke tests
06:54 <@rizen> how's that
06:54 <+perlDreamer> because I hate it when the tests are broke and grump at people when it happens
06:54 <@rizen> i like it when you break the smoke tests
06:55 <@rizen> cuz then i don't feel so bad when i break them
06:56 <@rizen> snapcount is here, but not really
06:56 <@rizen> isn't that weird
06:56 <+perlDreamer> rizen, please rerun the assetClipboard test
06:56 <+perlDreamer> and tell me why the test is wrong
06:57 <@rizen> i don't know how to run tests
06:57 <+perlDreamer> the package problem is fixed
06:57 <+perlDreamer> but now a test in assetClipboard what was passing is now failing
06:57 <+perlDreamer> does committing an asset change it's ID?
06:58 <@rizen> nope
06:58 <@rizen> just the revision date
06:58 <+perlDreamer> oh
06:58 <+perlDreamer> crap
06:58 <+perlDreamer> nm
06:58 <@rizen> nm on crap, or the problem?
06:58 <+perlDreamer> both
06:58 <+perlDreamer> bad test
06:59 <+perlDreamer> I wonder how many other bugs this one is related to?
06:59 <+perlDreamer> the dupe problem
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06:59 <@rizen> probably tons
07:00 <+perlDreamer> oh well
07:00 <+perlDreamer> it's fixed now
07:00 <+perlDreamer> and we have tests to monitor the codebase for the future
07:00 <@rizen> yeah, because i'm a genius
07:00 <+perlDreamer> I'll also commit the package test
07:00 <@rizen> hehe
07:00 <@rizen> i'm really full of myself
07:00 <+perlDreamer> even with a messed up head
07:00 <@rizen> i love it when a plan comes together
07:01 <+perlDreamer> You must be Faceman now
07:01 <+perlDreamer> you can close the bug and gloat some more
07:01 <@rizen> nah..you're the one that found the problem
07:01 <@rizen> you deserve the credit
07:01 <+perlDreamer> I'll take 10 karma
07:01 <@rizen> i already have 11k
07:02 <@rizen> i don't need anymore
07:02 <+perlDreamer> How much karma activity is there on the site?
07:02 <+perlDreamer> Do your customers spend much?
07:02 <@rizen> haven't looked in a while
07:02 <@rizen> probably not
07:02 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: new asset tests committed
07:02 <+perlDreamer> check them out
07:03 <@rizen> yup...customers are spending
07:03 <@rizen> highest karma is 12k
07:04 <@rizen> Emil has the most
07:04 <@rizen> don't even know who he is
07:05 <@rizen> you have more than 9k
07:06 <+perlDreamer> I have 11.8 K
07:07 <@rizen> you're probably the second highest on the site then
07:07 <+perlDreamer> I closed the stuck bugs from earlier today
07:07 <+perlDreamer> that brings us down 4 bugs
07:11 <@rizen> they call themselves the a-team
07:11 <@rizen> that's right jack, you understand
07:11 <@rizen> ok...gotta go throw my head in a pillow
07:11 <@rizen> later
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07:29 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: ping?
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14:58 <+Luke___> hiho
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17:14 < wgGuest35> Yo
17:15 < wgGuest35> My WebGUI site has standard registration fields, just like on plainblack.com
17:15 < wgGuest35> and I see that "lost password" link is not enabled there either...
17:17 < wgGuest35> Now the issue is that with the new update, the lost password trough profile fields mechanism is rather hard to implement: if you select just Username and Email address, it will be really unsecure...
17:17 <@rizen> a new form of recover password by email will be coming in 7.4
17:18 < wgGuest35> and you can't really select other fields (what happens to already registered users that didn't edit their profile?)
17:18 < wgGuest35> oh that's great
17:18 < wgGuest35> and on what it'll be based on?
17:19 <@rizen> the user will receive an email after typing in their email address
17:19 <@rizen> and they can then click on the link to recover
17:19 < wgGuest35> so the frontend will be pretty much like 7.2
17:19 <@rizen> yes, but more secure
17:19 <@rizen> the old way was totally insecure
17:19 < wgGuest35> cool much better!
17:20 < wgGuest35> do you have any timeline?
17:21 <@rizen> 1 week longer than it was before because you asked when =)
17:22 < wgGuest35> hah :D
17:22 < wgGuest35> I'm no competitor spy, just wanted to plan things a bit :)
17:43 <@rizen> i don't think i accused you of anything did i
17:43 < wgGuest35> indeed, I was just joking
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18:07 < onioncoder> just wondering if anyone has used workflows to create "sub-sites" on the fly for registered users...
18:07 < wgGuest35> sounds pretty good idea... For example personal blogs (CS) for each registered user...
18:09 < onioncoder> right -- i guess it would be a workflow that would a) gather some data from the user, b) install a package for what the page should look like
18:09 < onioncoder> i talked with JT a few years back about something like this before workflows, but I'm just wondering if workflows are the way to do this now... seems like it would be...
18:10 <@rizen> you could certainly do it with workflows, but you're going to need to write some custom activities
18:11 < onioncoder> are there any package related activities yet to base the work off of?
18:11 < onioncoder> or is this still worthy of a separate asset
18:12 <@rizen> no need for a seperate asset
18:12 <@rizen> but there's no activities that work with packages currently either
18:12 <@rizen> it would only take one custom activity
18:12 <@rizen> the api is all there to do it
18:12 <@rizen> you just need to trigger it when a user creates an account
18:13 <@rizen> and that trigger is already in place
18:13 < onioncoder> i need to trigger it on demand - not every registered user gets this
18:13 < onioncoder> but i suppose i could trigger it off a link on the page? or trigger off of the user adding themselves to a group via a link?
18:13 < wgGuest35> and how you get input from the user? For example the "Blog name" field, etc. so it dynamically generates the CS and so on
18:14 <@rizen> you've got some work for yourself then
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18:15 <@rizen> for those of you logged in as guests
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18:15 <+Luke___> re
18:15 <@rizen> you can change your name
18:15 < wgGuest35> Rizen did you check that? It's made with YUI, I just saw a screencast interview on it thinkature.com
18:16 <@rizen> by typing /nick newnamegoeshere
18:16 <@rizen> check what?
18:16 < wgGuest35> that website www.thinkature.com
18:17 < wgGuest35> damn If I could have that thing for my website...
18:17 <@rizen> you can
18:17 <@rizen> just sign up on their site
18:17 <@rizen> and there you god
18:17 <@rizen> go
18:17 <@rizen> =)
18:17 < wgGuest35> heh well I meant something integrated with user db etc.
18:17 <@rizen> i know what you meant
18:19 < wgGuest35> AJAX whiteboard.. wow
18:30 < ckotil> Can I set the default view permision to other than everyone??
18:31 <@rizen> the privilege is inherited
18:31 <@rizen> so when you create a new asset
18:31 <@rizen> it takes that privilege
18:31 <@rizen> from whatever it's parent is
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18:33 < ckotil> k
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18:39 < ckotil> is there a detailed description of each UI level?
18:39 < ckotil> all i can find is a list. with no descritoins
18:55 <@rizen> there's no detailed description
18:56 < ckotil> k
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19:03 < greghacke> so who is going to write thinkature for wG?
19:04 <@rizen> wgGuest35
19:04 < greghacke> was my thought too.  good luck, #35
19:05 <+perlDreamer> what is thinkature?
19:05 <+perlDreamer> and speaking of writing, where are the wG docs you were going to send me in 2005? :)
19:06 <@rizen> probably the same place has his plane ticket from 2006 WUC
19:06 <@rizen> oh snap...totally nailed you!!!
19:08 < greghacke> who is perlDreamer?
19:08 <+perlDreamer> What is the Matrix?
19:08  * ckotil follows the white rabbit
19:08 <@rizen> greg...that snipe was at you not pd
19:08 < greghacke> my 06 WUC ticket is in my client's hand (my former employ)
19:08 <@rizen> pd = colin kuskie 
19:09 < greghacke> Colin!
19:09 <@rizen> the greatest man alive
19:09 <+perlDreamer> hey!
19:09 < greghacke> definately
19:10 < greghacke> my tech writer is now in a place to write them - her business is switching to wG now.
19:10 < greghacke> (they make games like settlers of catan)
19:10 <+crythias> ooh... settlers of catan
19:10 <+crythias> never heard of it.
19:10 <+crythias> :)
19:10 <+crythias> actually, I have, but not played.
19:10 < greghacke> is a good game.
19:11 < greghacke> [17:09] Patterson, Tammy: I'm going to look at it.
19:11 < greghacke> [17:09] Patterson, Tammy: I need to get a handle on it. But..it sucks
19:12 < greghacke> see, she's already opinionated - thus a good fit for the community
19:12 <+crythias> :)
19:13 <@rizen> settlers of catan rocks
19:13 <+perlDreamer> we're taping out a chip today, I'll be on and off all day long
19:13 <+perlDreamer> anything important y'all better email or IM me
19:13  * crythias removes picket splinters from his butt... fence sitting ..erm... inhales forcefully.
19:15 < greghacke> 3D Settlers is even better
19:16 <+crythias> ok. I realized that I have 7.0.8 on my wg site.
19:16 <+crythias> I think I need to go to 7.2.3 and then latest?
19:18 < ckotil> i upgraded from 7.2.3 to 7.3.6 then to 7.3.7 (on my dev box) , didnt have any collab systems, and the upgrade went fine.
19:20 <+crythias> oh. my karma is now stagnant :)
19:20 <+crythias> -er
19:21 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version 7.3.8 - Upgrade Immediately, Security Vulnerability Found
19:21 <+crythias> um. wow
19:21 < ckotil> can i read about the vulnerability anywhere?
19:22 <@rizen> Here's the advisory
19:22 <@rizen> http://www.plainblack.com/getwebgui/advisories/security-defect-discovered-in-7.x-versions
19:22 < ckotil> thx
19:22 <@rizen> All the latest advisories are on getwebgui.ccom
19:22 <@rizen> you should subscribe
19:22 < ckotil> k
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19:38 < ckotil> hey perlDreamer what was wrong with the media folder?
19:38 <+perlDreamer> media folder?
19:39 < ckotil> anyone know roughly when the media folder came into existence?
19:39 < ckotil> yeah. 7.3.8 release notes...
19:39 < ckotil> - fix: Media Folder (perlDreamer Consulting, LLC)
19:39 <@rizen> media folder came in around 7.0 or 7.1
19:40 <@rizen> when we started allowing people to upload files directly from the rich editor
19:40 < ckotil> ah. cool. 
19:40 <+perlDreamer> oh
19:40 <+perlDreamer> Media Folder
19:40 < greghacke> i love the media folder.  
19:40 < ckotil> i recall creating a media folder to store my media in (go figure) then i noticed that it had the folder by default with the newer version. 
19:40 <+perlDreamer> If you don't have permission to upload to the Media Folder, it would ship you back an error message inside the RTE pop-up that included the site style
19:40 < ckotil> i love it too
19:40 <@rizen> pd: please make a note, we need to remove the media folder
19:41 < greghacke> much easier to teach my clients where to put stuff
19:41 < greghacke> GAR!
19:41 <+perlDreamer> rizen, check
19:41 <@rizen> we can't let people have something they like
19:41 <+perlDreamer> we'll do that in 7.3.122
19:41 <@rizen> k
19:41 < greghacke> make you a trade - one each Emira board game for one each media folder
19:41 < greghacke> (i know rizen's echange rate)
19:41 <@rizen> you realize there are around 10k webgui deployments right?
19:41 <+perlDreamer> what's Emira?
19:42 < greghacke> i want twice that many.
19:42 <@rizen> i want ^2 that many
19:42 < greghacke> Emira is a new board game by Mayfair.  You are a prince trying to find some princesses to marry
19:44 < ckotil> do you have a chart showing the number of deployments? that'd be interesting to see
19:45 <@preaction> i think google could finagle a search for you. webgui has a <meta name="generator">
19:45 <@rizen> actually lots of people remove that
19:46 <@preaction> the jerks
19:46 < greghacke> definately.  I leave it in.  Takes no space.
19:46 <@rizen> the deployment number that we know about is based upon people using testEnvironment.pl or the statistics page
19:46 < greghacke> Emira:  As a wealthy desert sheikh, you have many needs. Perhaps you need a wise advisor, or a talented cook, or maybe a well-organized housekeeper? Or, maybe you seek the romance of a beautiful companion?  
19:46 <@rizen> cuz that checks plainblack.com for the latest version
19:46 < greghacke> yep
19:47  * crythias just wants to be the mac daddy p.i.m.p.
19:47 <@rizen> we used to keep track of them, but stopped after we hit 10k unique servers
19:47 -!- Luke___ [n=wgGuest3@host-82-135-100-226.customer.m-online.net] has quit []
19:48  * crythias is a Private Investment Management Person. Ahh Yeah..
19:50 <+crythias> actually, according to www.bahamavention.com, I am so white, I can't wear myself after labor day.
19:54 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has joined #webgui
20:39 <+perlDreamer> and it grows ominously quiet in the channel
20:47 < PedersenMJ>  You've noticed that too, eh? I show up, it gets quiet. I'm starting to worry if I've got BO or something.
20:47 < ckotil> even w/ 15 users. the most ive seen
20:47 <+perlDreamer> rizen: I've found more of that bare reference code in the core
20:48 <+perlDreamer>  find . -name '*.pm' -exec perl -ne 'print "$ARGV: $_" if /->get\b/;' {} \; | grep -v 'get("' | grep -v i18n | grep -v "get('" | less
20:48 <@rizen> where it matters?
20:48 <+perlDreamer> not sure yet
20:48 <@rizen> in most cases it doesn't matter
20:48 <@rizen> if it's read only
20:48 <+perlDreamer> is addRevision safe?
20:49 <@rizen> i don't see why it wouldn't be
20:50 <@rizen> there's no reference in there that matters
20:50 <+perlDreamer> I was able to winnow it down from several thousand to just about 150
20:50 <+perlDreamer> I'll peek at a few then let it go
21:24 <+perlDreamer> need some hand holding...
21:25 <@rizen> i don't know..i think i've done enough hand holding this week (not with you, just in total)
21:25 <@rizen> what can i do for you
21:25 <+perlDreamer> I need some help verifying my checks
21:26 <+perlDreamer> addRevision will set $self's status to pending
21:26 <+perlDreamer> $properties->{status} = 'pending';
21:26 <+perlDreamer> line 86 of AssetVersioning
21:26 <+perlDreamer> so I think it should be marked as not safe for references
21:30 <@rizen> i don't see any problems there
21:30 <+perlDreamer> coolio
21:30 <@rizen> the methods that call addRevision are already creating a new hash
21:30 <@rizen> so there's no dangerous refs there
21:31 <+perlDreamer> $event->addRevision($self->get);
21:31 <+perlDreamer> inside the Event Asset
21:31 <@rizen> yeah, that's bad
21:31 <@rizen> that needs to be fixed
21:31 <+perlDreamer> That whole code needs to be reviewed for references problems because propery hashes are recycled in loops
21:31 <+perlDreamer> especially processPropertiesFromFormPost
21:32 <@rizen> i'm not following you
21:32 <@rizen> point out a problem
21:32 <+perlDreamer> that one I showed was one of them
21:32 <@rizen> what one?
21:32 <+perlDreamer> $event->addRevision($self->get);
21:32 <@rizen> what does that have to do with processPropertiesFromFormPost
21:32 <@rizen> that's what i'masking
21:33 <+perlDreamer> That code is inside pPFFP inside the Event
21:33 <@rizen> most assets don't create other assets in this way
21:33 <@rizen> the reason this one is doin gthat is due to recurrence
21:34 <+perlDreamer> yeah
21:34 <@rizen> www_add() already does the right thing
21:34 <@rizen> which is what's important for 99% of the assets
21:41 < ckotil> RFE: Navigation asset; add a new start point type. SELF (url of the nav asset)
21:42 < ckotil> what does everyone think of that?
21:42 <+perlDreamer> Is that a convenience method instead of typing the URL in by hand?
21:42 < ckotil> yes.
21:42 <+perlDreamer> sounds good to me
21:42 <@rizen> under what circumstances would that be used?
21:42 < ckotil> because when creating a package that contains a nav asset that is set to specific url of itself. when the package is used, you must update the specific url by hand
21:43 < ckotil> eh?
21:43 <+perlDreamer> like for sitemaps?
21:43 < ckotil> for creating a table of contents.
21:43 <@rizen> i can't think of a situation where nav ever starts with the nav asset
21:43 < ckotil> same idea as anchor links in a webpage.
21:43 < ckotil> but we have article assets, or whatevr asset inside a page layout
21:44 <+perlDreamer> can you point us to an example page?
21:44 < ckotil> sure.
21:45 < ckotil> my manager wants this functionality. and he just found this... http://www.plainblack.com/etcetera/article_internal_anchors 
21:45 < ckotil> ill get you the link to my example page...
21:46 < ckotil> fucking manager just trashed it .lol. gotta roll back
21:47 < greghacke> i like the SELF
21:47 <@rizen> pd, mental note...can't do this now, greg likes it
21:47 <+perlDreamer> gotcha
21:47 < greghacke> Example: I use a nav template in a group of assets as a package.
21:47 < ckotil> i might attempt to implement it and ill contribute to the codebase
21:48 <+perlDreamer> no Media Folders or Nav->SELF methods
21:48 < greghacke> the set would be nav asset, product overview, product images, product wiki and product demo
21:48 < ckotil> heh
21:48 < greghacke> then when mayfair gets a new product, we pop in the package and edit the resources
21:48 < greghacke> i'm tell worfel
21:48 < greghacke> wurfel
21:50 <@rizen> in order for self to work, all your assets would have to be direct descendants of it
21:50 <@rizen> not the page it's on, but actual decendants of the nav
21:50 < greghacke> easily done.
21:50 <@rizen> that's why i don't see this being terribly useful
21:50 < greghacke> and doesn't hamper my presentation
21:50 < ckotil> hrmm.. true
21:50 < ckotil> i guess i was just thinking of self and using 'siblings'
21:51 <+perlDreamer> and no depth
21:51 <@rizen> well... i guess it could have a start point modifier
21:51 <@rizen> self / .. / .. / ..
21:52 <@rizen> so instead of the start point being self
21:52 <@rizen> it would be "relative to self"
21:52 < greghacke> that would be even better for me.
21:52 <@rizen> and so not to confuse "self" with any given asset, it should be labled "relative to navigation asset"
21:52 < greghacke> er, i mean better for other people
21:53 <+perlDreamer> rizen: note, no start point modifiers for self
21:53 < ckotil> yeah. calling it self would get confusing
21:54 <@rizen> pd: you're right since greg likes it, can't be done
21:54 <+perlDreamer> I fixed that code in the Event Asset
21:54 <@rizen> coolio
21:59 < greghacke> i don't like "Fatal Internal Error"
22:02 < greghacke> since i don't like it, can we have it?
22:02 <+perlDreamer> sure
22:02 <+perlDreamer> $session->privilege->fatal
22:02 < greghacke> but only for me.
22:03 <+perlDreamer> $session->privilege->fatal if $user->get('username') eq 'greghacke';
22:03 < greghacke> now that is good code@
22:06 <@rizen> if ($user->username eq 'greghacke') {
22:07 <@rizen> WebGUI::Asset->getRoot($session)->purge;
22:07 <@rizen> return $session->errorHandler->fatal;
22:07 <@rizen> }
22:07 < PedersenMJ> Sad part is that I've seen people who did the equivalent to that after being told that rm -rf / was how to do a backup.
22:08 <+perlDreamer> well, it lets you _test_ your backup...
22:08 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but what a horrid way to do it.
22:09 <@rizen> when i was a noob i acidentally deleted ls from my first unix system
22:09 < PedersenMJ> Especially if you're a young'in asking for advice, and take it seriously.
22:09 <@rizen> you can't imagine what kind of hell that created
22:09 < PedersenMJ> Oh, I can come close. "chmod -R 0777 /"
22:10 < PedersenMJ> All of a sudden, su and login were broken. No more sticky bit on them.
22:10 < PedersenMJ> Erp, wrong, it was "chmod -R 0700 /"
22:10 < PedersenMJ> I was trying to remove all access to stuff that didn't belong to you. Boy, did I *ever* pull that off.
22:23 < ckotil> rfe: search feedback. i.e. 'no results found'
22:24 <+perlDreamer> searching where?
22:24 < ckotil> search asset.
22:25 <+perlDreamer> I remembering i18n'ing that.  That might be a bug
22:25 < ckotil> ah, good deal.
22:25 < ckotil> Shall i file a bug report?
22:26 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
22:27 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
22:27 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by ChanServ
22:29 <+perlDreamer> it's not a bug.  I'm thinking of the MultiSearch asset instead
22:29 <+perlDreamer> file an RFE
22:30 < ckotil> ok.
22:35 <+perlDreamer> if JT approves it, we'll put it into 7.4
22:35 < ckotil> thanks.
22:35 < ckotil> http://www.plainblack.com/rfe/request-for-enhancement/search-asset-feedback.-i.e.-no-results-found
22:36 <@preaction> i need some OO theory help. I've got a bunch of collateral tables that I want to implement some sort of caching for. So say I've got a Country package. Country->new would refer to one country (you'd think, right?). Country->getAll could get a list of Country objects. How could I implement caching? make another object?
22:37 <@preaction> say a CountryCache->new. CountryCache->getAll would then return all the countries and keep a cache of them, would that make sense to the layman?
22:37 <+perlDreamer> you could cache it inside the object, like the Sessin sub-objects
22:37 <@preaction> so now i've got a single country that has a cache of all the countries?
22:37 <@preaction> it doesn't make sense to me
22:38 <@preaction> this project is a far cry from the planning phase, this is something that should've been hashed out then...
22:38 <@preaction> currently i've got a bunch of class methods that return data structures
22:38 <@preaction> no objects at all
22:38 < ckotil> hrm.. so i got sidetrack and never linked you guys to my example for justifying the new starting point for nav asset. 
22:39 <@preaction> i'm perverting the deref operator, but it works and it makes sense
22:39 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: you had boss->nukage
22:39 < ckotil> yeah
22:39 < ckotil> i think we're seeing eye to eye on it. so no need to link you 
22:40 <+perlDreamer> preaction: sorry that I wasn't clear
22:40 <+perlDreamer> why not have a class method that locally caches?
22:40 <@preaction> nono, frank's been telling me the same thing for 2 hours
22:40 <@preaction> "locally"?
22:40 <+perlDreamer> sub getAll {
22:40 <+perlDreamer> my $self = shift;
22:40 <@preaction> as in keep track of the data structure and use it again and again?
22:40 <+perlDreamer> yes
22:40 <@preaction> but not inside the class
22:41 <@preaction> there is no object instanciation here
22:41 <@preaction> they're just class methods, not object methods
22:41 <+perlDreamer> package var?
22:41 <@preaction> i was told that was an unviable solution by frank
22:41 <@preaction> package Country; our $cache = {}; # keep a cache, eh?
22:41 <+perlDreamer> yup
22:42 <@preaction> when does that get destroyed though?
22:42 <+perlDreamer> it doesn't
22:42 <@preaction> mod_perl keeps persistence, so now you have a cache to keep track of at all times
22:42 <+perlDreamer> it either has to be manually reset or restart the webserver
22:42 <+perlDreamer> yes
22:42 <+perlDreamer> give me the 10,000 foot view for a sec
22:42 <+perlDreamer> you need a cache, but frank says
22:42 <@preaction> and since the query itself takes less than a tenth of a second to run no matter how complicated you make it, i feel the programmer time is not worth the processor time
22:42 <+perlDreamer> you need to argue that with Frank
22:43 <@preaction> the argument is this: Country should have a constructor with no arguments, and then everything should be an object call and should cache
22:44 <@preaction> then when the object falls out of scope, the cache is gone and we don't have to worry anymore
22:44 <+perlDreamer> so what's the problem with that solution?
22:44 <+perlDreamer> it means coding time, Frank doesn't like it, or what?
22:44 <@preaction> we're arguing semantics, a Country should not contain any more than one country (imo)
22:44 <@preaction> CountryList perhaps
22:45 <@preaction> or a Collateral; with getCountries that caches
22:45 <@preaction> Collateral->getCountries
22:46 <@preaction> in 3 months, when i've forgotten what a Country is, will I remember that it's more than one country?
22:47 <+perlDreamer> I don't see a problem in having a class method that returns them all, then it's just down to the question of where you cache.
22:47 <@preaction> CountryList->new; # get a new Country list, optionally only grab countries based on passed criteria, cache
22:48 <+perlDreamer> so where do you cache?
22:49 <+perlDreamer> db, WebGUI::Cache, $session?
22:49 <@preaction> CountryList->new->{_cache}
22:50 <@preaction> in memory, volatile, just for a single sub, so that a later call to ->getOne, doesn't have to go to the db
22:54 <+perlDreamer> oooohhhh
22:54 <+perlDreamer> bad perlDreamer
22:54 <+perlDreamer> "perlDreamer had to iron his hands"
22:55 <@preaction> um... not following
22:55 <+perlDreamer> I inserted a bug into the Project Manager due to sloppy coding
22:56 <+perlDreamer> and didn't test before committing
22:56 <@preaction> good job
22:56 <@preaction> eh, i leave debug code in a lot :(
22:56 <@preaction> usually warnings to the modperl error log
22:56 <@preaction> with Data::Dumper output
22:56 <+perlDreamer> I did this: $i18n->('label');
22:56 <@preaction> ahh
22:56 <+perlDreamer> that quote is from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
22:56 <@preaction> bad pd, no cookie
22:57 <+perlDreamer> no cookie
22:57 <@preaction> gooeybot botsnack
22:57 < gooeybot> :)
22:57 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot cookie
22:57 < gooeybot> perlDreamer: sorry...
22:57 <@preaction> gooebot cookie is <reply>Thanks $who!
22:57 <@preaction> er...
22:57 <@preaction> gooeybot: cookie is <reply>Thanks $who!
22:57 < gooeybot> sure thing preaction
22:57 <@preaction> gooeybot cookie
22:57 < gooeybot> preaction: what?
22:58 <@preaction> ...
22:58 <@preaction> gooeybot: cookie?
22:58 < gooeybot> bugger all, i dunno, preaction
22:58 <@preaction> ...........
22:58 <@preaction> cookie?
22:58 <@preaction> this... stupid... bot... is... going... to... be.. the... death.. of... me...
23:02 < greghacke> so...  anyone an expert with SQLForm? :-)  time to beat the machine
23:03 <+perlDreamer> preaction: here's the whole quote
23:03 <+perlDreamer> nm, stupid UTF8 non-handling operating system
23:03 <+perlDreamer> Solaris 8 sucks
23:04 <+perlDreamer> It's on here
23:04 <+perlDreamer> http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0295297/quotes
23:04 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot: shorten it
23:04 < gooeybot> perlDreamer: i'm not following you...
23:04 <+perlDreamer> I need a beer
23:05 < ckotil> me too
23:06 < ckotil> i just found my new favorite friday song.
23:06 < ckotil> ying yang twins - friday. if you like hip hop at all check it out.
23:06 < ckotil> pandora should have it
23:16 <+perlDreamer> preaction: re the RSS escaping bug
23:16 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI::HTML::filter does the same thing as <tmpl_var var ESCAPE="HTML">
23:17 <+perlDreamer> so I'll update the template with that and close the bug
23:22 <@preaction> better idea than pre-escaping, since then the RSSFromParent can be hammered into other uses (like DoS's slideshowpro xml thingy)
23:22 -!- wgGuest98 [n=wgGuest9@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
23:22 <+perlDreamer> is DoS a government office?  everytime you type that I think we're working for some botnet owner
23:23 <@preaction> US Department of State
23:23 <+perlDreamer> heh
23:23 <+perlDreamer> under certain circumstances, they do perform denial of service
23:23 <@preaction> embrace the whore, we're working for the state
23:24 < greghacke> 15 years in the army - that's embracing the whore...
23:24 <+perlDreamer> falling on your back out of a helicopter is a better example
23:24 <@preaction> embracing? that's becoming the whore :p
23:24 <@preaction> i kid, i kid
23:25 <+perlDreamer> word of advice: never piss off someone with formal combat training
23:25 < greghacke> that's good too.  disability never hurts the pocket.
23:25 <@preaction> but i'm on the internet, i can annoy with impunity!
23:26 <+perlDreamer> WUC
23:26 <+perlDreamer> Greg has a very good memory
23:26 <@preaction> and crap, you have my photo now
23:26 <+perlDreamer> and he knows where you live
23:26 <+perlDreamer> and work
23:26 <@preaction> uh... heh... i mean, my dad was in the reserves!
23:26 <+perlDreamer> Greg, put down the K-Bar
23:26 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
23:26 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
23:26 <+perlDreamer> phew
23:26 <@preaction> (don't mention he was dishonorably discharged for stealing army property and joyriding through germany)
23:27 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: grab Greg while I help preaction escape!
23:27 <@preaction> run away!
23:27  * snapcount looks like the deer right before it's leveled by a pickup truck
23:28 <@preaction> hoping that's it's two motorcycles?
23:28 <@snapcount> so I was looking at the RFE list and I've decided everyone should go use all their karma to move my RFE to the top of the list
23:28 <@preaction> yours?
23:28 <@snapcount> so get on it guys
23:28 <+perlDreamer> which RFE?
23:29 <@snapcount> the one for configurable search
23:29 <+perlDreamer> I'd like to ask something
23:29 < greghacke> now now, I am in Michigan.  This means I have my rifles and my pistols :-)
23:29 <+perlDreamer> Karma determines which features PB implements, right?
23:29 <@snapcount> one way
23:29 <@snapcount> there's a good wiki entry out there on how to get stuff in the core
23:29 <@snapcount> whoever wrote it is brilliant
23:29 <+perlDreamer> and good looking
23:29 <@snapcount> damn straight
23:29 <+perlDreamer> let me see if I remember
23:30 <+perlDreamer> anyone with commit access can implement blessed RFE's?
23:30 <@snapcount> into a beta
23:30 < greghacke> someone needs a wiki entry on SQLForm :-)
23:30 <@preaction> "a"?
23:30 < greghacke> I lack commit
23:30 <@preaction> several?
23:30 < ckotil> someone needs to write an entry on sqlform ;]
23:30 <@snapcount> "b"?
23:30 <@snapcount> "c"?
23:31 <@preaction> "x"!
23:31 <@snapcount> yeah they might win the WCC and become rich and famous
23:31 <+perlDreamer> rizen: note to self.  No wiki entries on the SQL Form
23:31 <@snapcount> that thing is hard to figure out
23:32 <@snapcount> but once I figured it out, it's pretty spiffy
23:32 < greghacke> i've got Tammy on it
23:32 <+perlDreamer> it seemed simple when Martin demo'ed it
23:32 <@snapcount> yeah, I remember
23:32 <@snapcount> then I tried it and got the same look I had when I joined channel today
23:32 <@snapcount> it needs a wizard
23:33 <+perlDreamer> calling Wizard HairGrease
23:33 <@snapcount> with a little animated gooey pointing at each step as you click next
23:33 <+perlDreamer> HairGrease, please report to the IRC
23:33 <+perlDreamer> stat
23:33 < greghacke> clean up, HairGrease, isle 3...
23:34 < PedersenMJ> I'm kinda hoping no one beats out my entry. I'm still working on it, but my entry for it will be the "Making a WebGUI Style" page when it's done.
23:34 <@snapcount> so you want to see the worst example of an error message I've ever seen?
23:34 <+perlDreamer> sure
23:34 <@snapcount> [Fri Jan 26 13:31:23 2007] [error] SSL Library Error: 218710120 error:0D094068:asn1 encoding routines:d2i_ASN1_SET:bad tag
23:34 <@snapcount> [Fri Jan 26 13:31:23 2007] [error] SSL Library Error: 218529960 error:0D0680A8:asn1 encoding routines:ASN1_CHECK_TLEN:wrong tag
23:34 <@snapcount> [Fri Jan 26 13:31:23 2007] [error] SSL Library Error: 218595386 error:0D07803A:asn1 encoding routines:ASN1_ITEM_EX_D2I:nested asn1 error
23:34 <@snapcount> [Fri Jan 26 13:31:23 2007] [error] SSL Library Error: 218734605 error:0D09A00D:asn1 encoding routines:d2i_PrivateKey:ASN1 lib
23:34 <@snapcount> screw pastebin
23:35 <@snapcount> I know someone is about to say it
23:35 <@snapcount> I'm lazy
23:35 <@snapcount> you know what generates that
23:35 <@snapcount> some of yo might actually
23:35 <+perlDreamer> mod_perl?
23:35 < PedersenMJ> Lack of ambition?
23:35 < greghacke> oh, Pdersen!  I was doing something like that based on CSSZenGarden
23:36 <@snapcount> trying to restart apache with ssl when you have added a private key protected with a passphras
23:36 <+perlDreamer> that sucks
23:36 < ckotil> ability to import csszengarden.
23:36  * ckotil drools
23:36 <@snapcount> well, the first line of the error message is a little better I guess
23:36 < greghacke> already do it.  
23:36 <@snapcount> [Fri Jan 26 13:31:23 2007] [error] Init: Unable to read pass phrase [Hint: key introduced or changed before restart?]
23:36 < PedersenMJ> I'm doing it based on a single style. And trying to cover all bases.
23:36 < greghacke> csszengarden is the basis of my html:template
23:36 <@snapcount> lol
23:37 < ckotil> cool.
23:37 < ckotil> But im talking get a script to do it.
23:37 < PedersenMJ> Not gonna do that myself. Don't see how I can.
23:37 < ckotil> im all abotu automation. i need to get that shirt that says ' dont bother me or else ill replace you with a small shell script'
23:37 <+perlDreamer> thinkgeek.com
23:37 < ckotil> yah. heh
23:37 <@snapcount> I had a sticker like that for my old laptop
23:37 < ckotil> thety have a ton of cool shit i would buy if i had the money to do so
23:37 <+perlDreamer> snapcount, we need a new bug category
23:38 <+perlDreamer> it's called "IE"
23:38 <@snapcount> couldn't bear to deface the beautfiul mbp though
23:38 < greghacke> too many of my clients want to know what's in the magic box - as rizen can attest
23:38 <@snapcount> actually it's simpler than that
23:38 <+perlDreamer> Any bugs that say "I use IE *"
23:38 <@snapcount> we just need one bug report that says IE
23:38 <+perlDreamer> get automatically closed with the message : use Firefox
23:38 <@snapcount> oh ok
23:38 <@snapcount> I like it
23:38 <+perlDreamer> There are like 6-8 of them
23:39 <@snapcount> give me all your karma, and I'll have Doug think about it
23:39 <+perlDreamer> wG doesn't let us transfer karma
23:39 < greghacke> where you want my karma?
23:39 <@snapcount> on my RFE
23:39 -!- wgGuest19 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
23:39 < greghacke> Configurable Search Rules
23:40 <@snapcount> I want to run a syndicate that controls the RFE list
23:40 <@snapcount> we'll muscle  people around
23:40 <@snapcount> like evil villians
23:40 < ckotil> where does this come from '-moz-border-radius-' ?
23:40 <+perlDreamer> I like your files for purchase idea better
23:40 < ckotil> is that mozilla specific?
23:40 <@snapcount> ckotil: good guess is yes
23:40 < greghacke> it's moz/firefox/etc specific
23:40 < ckotil> nice.
23:40 <+perlDreamer> ask Steve
23:40 <@snapcount> but I'm a css retard
23:40 < ckotil> im ripping off the plainblack search button
23:40 <+perlDreamer> it was his bug
23:40 < ckotil> just the code. made my own image ;]
23:41 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: you're missing the point
23:41 <@snapcount> it's not about the RFE you think is better
23:41 <@snapcount> it's all about me
23:41 < greghacke> ck: it's a css element created in and for moz but has been supported by a number of other browsers
23:41 <@snapcount> every group of villains needs an evil leader
23:41 < greghacke> ck: similar to opacity
23:42 < ckotil> greghacke: ah. thanks for the info
23:42 < greghacke> np - can see both at http://www.redskyrising.com/redstar/gallery
23:42 <@snapcount> kinda cool there are enough people in here to actually warrant specifying to whom you wish to interact
23:42 < greghacke> the moz border is the circle formed around the login, the opacity is visible when opening an image
23:43 < greghacke> sc: not just "here" but actually active
23:44 <@snapcount> is this website for a group of socialist rock stars that like vodka?
23:44 <+perlDreamer> and dreds
23:45 < ckotil> with a dash of emo
23:45 <@snapcount> the red dreds were really cool
23:45 <@snapcount> rizen should do that
23:45 <@snapcount> that and a zz top beard
23:45 <@snapcount> combined with the black wardrobe
23:45 <@snapcount> we'd have an icon
23:45 <+perlDreamer> he already has the wardrobe
23:46 <+perlDreamer> anyone up for some javascript bug fixing?
23:46 < greghacke> sc: correct, they are an odd goth industrial band
23:46 <+perlDreamer> I think I know what's causing the RTE image/asset tree linking bug
23:46 <+perlDreamer> but don't know how to fix it
23:47 < greghacke> sc: you have all my karma now
23:47 <+perlDreamer> 4 karma?
23:47 <@preaction> greghacke: definately liking the design, but perhaps the login box needs to be javascriptied, like a "login" link that shows/hides the div with the login box (it's ugly being there all the time)
23:48 < greghacke> pr: agree but the band LOVES it.  i did a showIt js that was even IE compliant - they hated it.
23:48 <@preaction> c'est la vie, clients get what clients want
23:49 < greghacke> pD: i gave him 96.  like I said, all i had...
23:49 <@preaction> i also think i should post a bug for all the "Click Here" things in WebGUI's i18n stuff. the w3c say that "click here" is bad web practices
23:49 <+perlDreamer> wow, that's 24:1
23:49 <+perlDreamer> if you post it, I'll fix them
23:49 <@preaction> so i should put all my 3500 karma into snapcount's thingy?
23:50 <+perlDreamer> to get to the top of the list he'd need a lot of karma
23:50 < greghacke> open query: I want to extract all the css from the asset headers
23:50 <+perlDreamer> like more than 24,000
23:50 <@preaction> well, we'd have to run it by TMRFE first, it might be a bad web practice, but it might also be necessary for pebkac
23:50 <+perlDreamer> what is TMRFE?
23:50 < gooeybot> TMRFE is The Man Responsible For Everything or Yes, sometimes there is someone to blame
23:50 <@preaction> gooeybot pebkac is Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair
23:50 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot botsnack
23:50 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
23:50 < gooeybot> :)
23:50 < greghacke> rizen
23:51 <@preaction> gooeybot BAD is Broken As Designed
23:51 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
23:51 <@preaction> gooeybot BAD is also Sometimes you just have to go back to the beginning
23:51 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
23:51 <@preaction> gooeybot grue is It's very dark in here. You might get eaten by a grue.
23:51 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
23:58 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot preaction is your master now
23:58 < gooeybot> OK, perlDreamer.
23:58 <@preaction> preaction?
23:58 < gooeybot> you are my master now
23:58 <@preaction> lol
23:58 <+perlDreamer> preaction?
23:58 < gooeybot> preaction is my master now
23:59 <@preaction> BAD?
23:59 < gooeybot> BAD is, like, Broken As Designed or Sometimes you just have to go back to the beginning
23:59 <@preaction> cookie?
23:59 <@preaction> gooeybot cookie is C is for cookie, and that's alright
23:59 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
23:59 <@preaction> cookie?
23:59 < gooeybot> cookie is C is for cookie, and that's alright
--- Day changed Sat Jan 27 2007
00:00 <@preaction> no, gooeybot, cookie is <reply>C is for cookie, and that's alright
00:00 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
00:00 <@preaction> cookie?
00:00 < gooeybot> C is for cookie, and that's alright
00:00 -!- greghacke [n=greghack@c-24-23-66-147.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit []
00:01 -!- greghacke [n=greghack@c-24-23-66-147.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
00:02 < greghacke> finally, Trillian lets me use it for irc
00:02 < greghacke> or did everyone leave?
00:02 <+perlDreamer> anyone know of a SOAP service that will spew data at me?
00:03 <@preaction> it seems that gooeybot doesn't like $who and <reply> in the same item
00:05 < ckotil> have a good weekend everyone.
00:05 <+perlDreamer> later,chad
00:05 < greghacke> ciao
00:05 < ckotil> cya colin
00:05 < greghacke> do'cvedonya!
00:05 <@preaction> peace ez, sucka
00:05 < ckotil> pz
00:05 -!- ckotil [n=newtrino@snare.grnoc.iu.edu] has quit ["leaving"]
00:06 <@preaction> Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?
00:06 <+perlDreamer> nein
00:06 <+perlDreamer> oh, drat it
00:06 <@preaction> nyet!
00:06 <+perlDreamer> blew that one again
00:06 < greghacke> Da.
00:06 <@preaction> Da? DA?
00:06 < greghacke> Ya xzil va muskva dva goda.
00:07 <@preaction> ?? ?????????? ??? ????????????!
00:08 <@preaction> babelfish doesn't translate your romanized cyrillic :p
00:08 < greghacke> quite true.
00:08 < greghacke> I lived in moscow for two years.
00:08 <@preaction> fun?
00:09 < greghacke> on and off.  along with most of the bad(tm) places.
00:09 < greghacke> always fun.  only group that ever really hurt me were americans
00:09 <@preaction> eh, i like bad places
00:09 < greghacke> Rwanda, Bosnia, Iraq, Somalia, etc.
00:10 <@preaction> i'm a general junkie, adrenaline, endorphines, nicotine, caffiene, THC, LSD, and chef boyardee
00:10 < greghacke> was good for me
00:10 <+perlDreamer> had to read that twice
00:10 <+perlDreamer> thought he said TLC
00:10 <+perlDreamer> and I'm wondering how lame reality shows fit in with the reset
00:10 <+perlDreamer> rest
00:10 < greghacke> chef boyardee is the only one that scares me
00:11 <@preaction> TLC was a pop band from the nineties, get with it man
00:11 <@preaction> it's hip to be square
00:11 <@rizen> what's with you people!!!!!
00:12 <+perlDreamer> I made the mistake of asking them to help me with javascript
00:12 <+perlDreamer> it blew their minds
00:12 <@preaction> we're so awesome we have to pretend to be lame so people will talk to us
00:12 <@rizen> i get on th phone and then all the sudden there is a burst of chatter like there has never been before
00:12 <@preaction> it's all OT though
00:12 <@rizen> excellent. then i don't have to read the history
00:13 <@preaction> i think there was somehting about me wanting to remove all the "Click Here"s from i18n, since the w3c calls it a bad web practice
00:13 <@preaction> and running it by you first
00:14 <@rizen> how many click here's are there?
00:14 <@rizen> i can't imagine many
00:15 <@preaction> just a couple, the main two being "click here to register" and "click here to logout"
00:15 <@preaction> they might not be in i18n, but wherever they are
00:15 <+perlDreamer> there are about 10
00:15 <+perlDreamer> all through the system
00:15 <+perlDreamer> how do I pastebin?
00:16 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot pastebin?
00:16 < gooeybot> no idea, perldreamer
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Asset_EventManagementSystem.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Asset_Shortcut.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Asset_SQLForm.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Asset_Survey.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/CommercePaymentITransact.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Macro_L_loginBox.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/Macro_LoginToggle.pm
00:16 <+perlDreamer> i18n/English/WebGUI.pm
00:17 <@preaction> perlbot paste
00:17 < perlbot> Paste your code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl or http://erxz.com/pb and #perl will be able to view it.
00:17 <@preaction> gooeybot pastebin is http://sial.org/pbot
00:17 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
00:18 <@preaction> no, gooeybot pastebin is http://sial.org/pbot | http://erxz.com/pb | http://pastebin.ca
00:18 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
00:18 <@preaction> pastebin?
00:18 < gooeybot> i guess pastebin is http://sial.org/pbot
00:18 <@preaction> pastebin?
00:18 < gooeybot> pastebin is http://sial.org/pbot
00:18 <@preaction> damnit... randomize!
00:18 <@preaction> pastebin?
00:18 < gooeybot> well, pastebin is http://pastebin.ca
00:18 <@preaction> ha
00:18 <@preaction> gooeybot pastebin is also | magic 8ball says "Try again"
00:18 < gooeybot> okay, preaction.
00:18 <@preaction> pastebin?
00:18 < gooeybot> pastebin is probably http://erxz.com/pb
00:19 <@preaction> rofl
00:19 <@preaction> add your favorite pastebins with: gooeybot pastebin is also | <URL HERE>
00:21 <@rizen> i'm ok with getting rid of them if there is a better idea
00:21 <@preaction> i'd say icons, but would that work? style differences would render them evil
00:22 <@preaction> just "Logout", as long as there's a link-styling to it (which is up to the designer's CSS of course)
00:22 <@preaction> "Create Account" instead of "Register" perhaps?
00:23 <@preaction> Create User even
00:23 <@preaction> using verbs to describe the action, with "Click here to" being implied
00:29 < greghacke> Yep.
00:29 < greghacke> Oh, and I had implied that we should remove all the CSS from asset headers and create snippets with CSS tied for those assets
00:29 <@rizen> i'm hungry
00:29 <@rizen> anybody else hungry?
00:29 <+perlDreamer> no, but I need a beer
00:30 < greghacke> Want to get some gaming in.  sitting in a gaming store and not playing
00:30 <@rizen> greg...did my little package go out this week?
00:30 < greghacke> although food...
00:31 < greghacke> It did.  will get you the shipping code.  will be coming from either the factory (skokie, IL) or the president/ceo's house.
00:31 <@rizen> what address did you ship it to?
00:32 < greghacke> told me to keep mine uhm...  looking
00:32 <@preaction> greghacke: that's a big RFE, but i'd definately pump my 3500 karma into that
00:33 < greghacke> pr: i'm looking at doing it myself.  just working through all the assets, top to bottom
00:33 <+perlDreamer> rizen: did you fix the upgrade mirror problem again?
00:33 <@rizen> yeah, it should be closed bug now isn't it
00:34 <@preaction> the new calendar templates have a bunch of CSS that needs to be cleaned up major-like, steve was under some pressure
00:34 <+perlDreamer> dhelsten reopened it
00:34 <+perlDreamer> is it some random hiccup?
00:34 < greghacke> rizen: 1360 Regent St
00:34 <@rizen> sweet thanks greg
00:34 < greghacke> my pleasure, really
00:34 < greghacke> rizen: 3 day select, getting # asap
00:35 <@rizen> sourceforge keeps changing the html that i'm scraping
00:35 <@rizen> so for the time being the only mirror in the list is plainblack
00:35 <+perlDreamer> I'll close the bug
00:36 < greghacke> preaction: so you think a css migration would do well?  would still call the css asset through the headers but as a link.
00:36 < greghacke> opinion?
00:38 <@preaction> i think it's the best bet, it takes into account browser and webgui caching
00:38 <@preaction> of course, that could be a detriment, since those caches are ... persistent
00:39 <@preaction> but CSS best practice is to use <link rel="stylesheet"> whenever possible
00:39 < greghacke> but you can set the cache timeouts on the css asset
00:39 <@preaction> ah, did not know that
00:40 < greghacke> use the caching for my css assets all the time.  critical to some of my church sites
00:40 <@preaction> the only thing is: it should be intuitive. if it's a minor thing, one or two lines, and it's just easier to keep it in the extra head tags, we should do so
00:40 <@preaction> i think it's mostly style and large blocks we should worry about
00:40 < greghacke> yep - style is my first step
00:40 <@preaction> so style03 already has a .css snippet
00:41 <@preaction> but, example, the calendar templates do not (when they share a lot of the same CSS)
00:41 <@preaction> so a snippet in their /root/import node/calendar (or wherever those templates went) would be excellent
00:42 < greghacke> in the same course, i want to pull the javascript, etc.
00:42 < greghacke> but yes, calendar was a big one for me.
00:42 < greghacke> my key is also standardizing the CSS using camelCase reference.
00:46 < greghacke> so all calendar specific css would be calendarBigDay or something
00:49 < greghacke> sticking with the rizen wG Best Practices of camelCase of course.
00:49 <@rizen> of course
00:50 < greghacke> so, my new intent for the current contest is writing How to: EMS.  thoughts?
00:51 <@rizen> ooh that would be good
00:51 < PedersenMJ> What's EMS stand for?
00:51 <+perlDreamer> that's not a page, that's an adventure
00:51 < greghacke> started it this afternoon.
00:51 < greghacke> Event Management System
00:51 < greghacke> Eh, I am intimately familiar with it from both ends.
00:51 < PedersenMJ> Ah, that should be a very useful page. I might even vote for such over mine :)
00:52 < greghacke> we ran a 12000 person show using it in July.
00:52 < greghacke> heck, I even came up with methods for it to print badges and tickets that were IE compliant...
00:53 <@rizen> nicely done dood
00:53 < greghacke> i don't think they were unhappy with the performance even with the minute bugs
00:55 < greghacke> won't make up for missing WUC but i will be using wink for part of it
00:59 <@preaction> that would be very good, i know i could not for the life of me figure out how to use the EMS
00:59 <@preaction> (still can't, actually)
01:00 < greghacke> I can!
01:01 <@preaction> you can help the community! 
01:01 <@preaction> go man, go!
01:01 < greghacke> woohoo!
01:01 <@preaction> does three hours of meetings about a project count as working on that project?
01:02 < greghacke> no idea... rizen?  out all, time to eat...
01:02 -!- greghacke [n=greghack@c-24-23-66-147.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"]
01:03 <@preaction> i just feel bad sometimes saying "i worked for three hours talking, but have nothing tangible to show for it"
01:12 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
01:29 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit []
01:32 <+perlDreamer> is 67 KB too big for testing collateral?
01:37 <@preaction> he left, but since wG has grown to be 16 megabytes since 7.0 (a 3x increase), i doubt another 67k will matter
01:38 <+perlDreamer> I'm going to build a package import test to try and debug Frank's double import problem, and so we'll need a package to import
01:39 <@preaction> i say if it helps webgui (by making packages more robust by implementing more regression tests) then it's worth it
01:39 <@preaction> and jt isn't here to veto
01:39 <@preaction> is that good or bad?
01:39 <+perlDreamer> we can always take it out
01:40 <@preaction> true enough
01:40 <+perlDreamer> or use a smaller package
01:40 <@preaction> just use some little crap icons from a free service
01:40 <+perlDreamer> I was able to dupe the bug, but the symptoms are completely different than what is reported
01:40 <@preaction> or heck, use a couple of the wG asset icons
01:40 <@preaction> sure it's the same bug then?
01:41 <+perlDreamer> no, but the end result is the same
01:41 <+perlDreamer> there are on hard wG errors, but if you double import it blows away the old package
01:41 <+perlDreamer> it's gone
01:41 <+perlDreamer> and the webgui.log file gets filled with "Could not set uid/gid" messages
01:41 <+perlDreamer> so I'm guessing the bug has evolved since September
01:42 <@preaction> ew indeed
01:43 <+perlDreamer> the tests I wrote last night helped with the package deploy problem
01:44 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version 7.3.8 - Upgrade Immediately, Security Vulnerability Found... and Don't feed the badgers
01:46 -!- snapcount changed the topic of #webgui to: Current WebGUI Version 7.3.8 - Upgrade Immediately, Security Vulnerability Found and don't feed the badgers
01:48 <+perlDreamer> good idea
01:48 <+perlDreamer> michigan looks tough this year
01:49 <+perlDreamer> I think we broke a record for this week
01:49 <+perlDreamer> most number of releases
01:50 <+perlDreamer> with 3 in 3 days
01:50 <+perlDreamer> you must be pooped
01:51 <@preaction> well maybe if the new guy didn't keep messing things up with his crap code!
01:51 <@preaction> er... I mean... move along
01:51 <@preaction> (7.3.8 wasn't me, I swear)
01:51 <+perlDreamer> eh, you just caused upgrade problems
01:51 <@preaction> nor was 7.3.7 for that matter
01:52 <@preaction> we'll blame drake, since he can't defend himself
01:52 <+perlDreamer> at least you didn't write in a security problem
01:52 <@preaction> you just haven't found one yet
01:52 <+perlDreamer> I think I know what's wrong with the recurrence code.
01:52 <+perlDreamer> It doesn't check for this week
01:53 <@preaction> the issue with that is "what is a week", DateTime specifies it as Sunday to Saturday
01:53 <+perlDreamer> I don't think that's it
01:53 <@preaction> with the first week being the first Sunday to Saturday containing the first Thursday (so there can be a week 0)
01:53 <@preaction> but yes, i'm clouding the issue
01:54 <@preaction> what issue? the double-creation?
01:54 <+perlDreamer> yeah
01:54 <+perlDreamer> it creates the original event
01:54 <+perlDreamer> then builds N additional events, starting at 0 instead of 1
01:54 <@preaction> i simply did not even check for it, and frank said if the original event doesn't fall on the same day as a recurring event, it should be created
01:54 <@preaction> don't know why. i think that the recurrence start should always be the start of the first event
01:55 <@preaction> the recurrence is going to go through a rewrite, i can tell you that
01:55 <@preaction> it's hard to do well, and i've got a feeling i know how to do it a lot better this time
01:55 <+perlDreamer> if you can, abstract out the algorithm so that you can write tests for it
01:55 <+perlDreamer> all that TDD stuff
01:56 <@preaction> that big huge algorithm? yeah... it'd be nice to make some tinier ones
01:56 <@preaction> that was written at the end of a very very long night
01:56 <@preaction> some recursion would work nice as well
01:57 <@preaction> better flow, a lot of code in that algorithm is copy/pasted
01:58 <+perlDreamer> ew
01:58 <@preaction> it's ugly, i hate it, and i want it to die
01:58 <+perlDreamer> don't die, otherwise you won't be able to fix it
01:58 <@preaction> frankly, i'm surprised it works
01:58 <+perlDreamer> and I'll have to write your docs, too :)
01:58 <@preaction> actually, about that: do you have time during the evening after "work" during out PB bug fix extravaganza to assist me with that?
01:59 <@preaction> i figure i do it after real bugs are fixed during the day
01:59 <+perlDreamer> I'm hoping to have time during the day next week to help with that as well as the evening
01:59 <@preaction> i mean, iphoneguy did make the docs thing a bug, so it'd be possible to work on it during the day, but i'd prefer evening, after real bugs are worked out during the day
02:00 <@preaction> so any evening you're open for those three days
02:00 <+perlDreamer> I'll have to check the calendar for an evening.
02:00 <+perlDreamer> Usually from 5:30pm to 7:30pm PST I'm in Daddy-mode
02:01 <@preaction> meaning about 7:30-9:30p CST?
02:01 <+perlDreamer> yeah, so I'd be free after that
02:01 <@preaction> later or earlier is fine
02:01 <@preaction> i'm usually up until 1-2a CST
02:01 <+perlDreamer> that gives us some time
02:02 <@preaction> indeed
02:04 <@preaction> what would you say to turning on warnings for WebGUI and making sure that during normal operations it doesn't make a peep?
02:04 <+perlDreamer> what does "turning on warnings" mean?
02:05 <@preaction> (so, if necessary, you should turn off certain warnings when doing something a bit esoteric)
02:05 <@preaction> perl -w
02:05 <@preaction> use warnings;
02:05 <+perlDreamer> I like it
02:05 <+perlDreamer> I think the syntax check test does that
02:05 <+perlDreamer> it's pretty -w clean, really
02:05 <+perlDreamer> some duplicated my's
02:05 <@preaction> i dunno, i always see a whole slew of "uninitialized" craps
02:05 <@preaction> of course, those can be turned off if desired
02:05 <+perlDreamer> or fixed
02:05 <@preaction> or, it could just be my code
02:06 <+perlDreamer> btw, I tinkered in your code a little
02:06 <@preaction> might be good to do when we start using Carp and eval { }
02:06 <+perlDreamer> there was some references being passed to subs that alter their args
02:06 <@preaction> i didn't
02:06 <@preaction> i did
02:06 <@preaction> i think i was suggested to :p
02:06 <@preaction> but i shouldn't have
02:07 <+perlDreamer> this one
02:07 <+perlDreamer> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI SVN/revision/?rev=3650
02:07 <@preaction> i'm getting used to bickering with frank, so i'll keep my standards secure unless i get a long, involved reason why not
02:07 <+perlDreamer> that kind of stuff was the bug rizen found last night
02:08 <+perlDreamer> so I put my grep hat on and started some code analysis
02:08 <@preaction> oh, yeah i probably did not mean to do that
02:08 <@preaction> i keep forgetting that $asset->get returns a reference instead of creating a copy and then returning a reference to it
02:08 <@preaction> to be honest, that's what ->get should do imho
02:08 <@preaction> create a copy, and then return a ref to the copy
02:09 <+perlDreamer> it would be a lot safer if it did
02:09 <+perlDreamer> talk to rizen about it
02:09 <@preaction> usually i just add an RFE and if it's something like that, he just does it right away
02:09 <@preaction> so i'll do that
02:09 <+perlDreamer> I also think we should be checking inside of AssetLineage for asset definedness, instead of trying to call undef->get
02:10 <+perlDreamer> if we get handed back a bad Asset, then croak with all the info you need to find out why it croaked
02:10 <@preaction> getLineage, before pushing onto the array of returned assets?
02:10 <+perlDreamer> yeah!
02:10 <@preaction> warn if we can't instanciate
02:10 <+perlDreamer> croak
02:10 <@preaction> "Can't instanciate Asset with ID: "
02:10 <+perlDreamer> croak is the only way to force finding the bugs
02:10 <@preaction> i dunno, carp maybe, croak maybe not
02:10 <+perlDreamer> few people even know they have a log file
02:10 <+perlDreamer> wG will just hum along silently unless we croak
02:11 <@preaction> but if we put this into existing instances, it might create more problems (since it can go along just fine for a while)
02:11 <+perlDreamer> you're right, it's harsh but it
02:11 <+perlDreamer> also forces the problems into the daylight
02:11 <+perlDreamer> and that seems to be the goal of 7.3
02:12 <@preaction> i suppose we are going for stability these days, and if we fix it now we don't have to fix it later
02:12 <@preaction> so i'm adding mine for "Asset->get should return a copy of the hashref"
02:15 <@preaction> or wait, if you put the croak  (confess rather) in the asset constructor, then you wouldn't need it in getLineage
02:15 <@preaction> confess does a full stack trace, instead of just going back one level
02:17 <+perlDreamer> sure, so long as it dies and forces the user to tell us something
02:17 <@preaction> it will, unless some idiot traps it themselves (which of course, we should allow)
02:17 <+perlDreamer> sure
02:17 <+perlDreamer> there may be a bug filed for that already
02:18 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/lack-of-testing-for-valid-object-creation#cvZLuxaQe68DkewYeLO_ew
02:18 <@preaction> probably is, we've been having tons of fun with that and the migration from old EC to new C
02:26 <+perlDreamer> "fun"
02:27 <@preaction> 16 hours of extra, non-billable work (meaning i had to still work 8 billable hours those days)
02:27 <@preaction> yes
02:28 <+perlDreamer> heading home.  Catch you later
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02:35 < crythia1> heh
02:35 < crythia1> oopsies
02:37 <@preaction> plenty of those this week
02:48 < Hinrik> heh
02:48 < Hinrik> find WebGUI|grep .pm|xargs perlcritic -severity 4|wc -l
02:48 < Hinrik> 2097
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05:45 < Radix__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/radix999/sets/72157594501906135/
06:00 < PedersenMJ> Cool :)
06:04 < Radix__> Was a great day.. though very hot.. hit 42'C
06:05 < Radix__> 107.6'F I think that works out to be
06:05 < PedersenMJ> Wow... We barely get that in the deserts. Very hot.
06:06 < Radix__> same temp today too actually
06:06 < Radix__> Anyhow.. I'm off.. just thought I'd share those :)
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06:26 <+perlDreamer> hey guys
06:26 <+perlDreamer> did you miss me?
06:26 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, but my aim is getting better.
06:28  * perlDreamer ducks
06:28 <+perlDreamer> bobs
06:28 <+perlDreamer> weaves
06:28 <+perlDreamer> and plants easter eggs in the code
06:28 <+perlDreamer> :)
06:28 < PedersenMJ> Dang it, you gotta stand still. I said better, not great! Hell, I still have problems hitting stuff that's standing still!
06:29 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, amaze me with your SOAP knowledge
06:29 <+perlDreamer> I need a public SOAP server that will spew reams of data to test the pagination variable fixes for the WSClient Asset
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Well, since I haven't ever used it, I don't have a lot of knowledge to amaze with. However, I *do* have an idea: Why not set one up that just spits out something from project gutenberg?
06:32 < PedersenMJ> i.e.: Take a long text (say, one of Shakespeare's plays), and make a small soap server that spits out each line of the play as a line of xml.
06:33 <+perlDreamer> Hmmm.  Setting up involves more work.
06:33 <+perlDreamer> I exercising virtue #1 today
06:33 <+perlDreamer> see, I'm so lazy I even forgot a verb in that last sentence.
06:36 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it's not difficult, but it's not totally trivial either. Of course, there is one advantage to setting it up in the long run: You can build unit tests around it.
06:36 < PedersenMJ> Which might not be enough, but it's still there.
06:37 < PedersenMJ> But finding a public soap server that's already set up? Nope, I don't know of one.
06:37 <+perlDreamer> okay
06:37 <+perlDreamer> I'll work on the double package import bug instead
06:38 <+perlDreamer> one advantage of having lots of bugs to fix is that you can pick and choose
06:39 < PedersenMJ> Also true :)
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07:04 <+perlDreamer> so what are you hacking on tonight?
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Me? I got a new laptop at work today, and am configuring it like crazy. It's a Mac, and it seems very nice. Basically, I'm working on switching over.
07:05 <+perlDreamer> cool
07:05 <+perlDreamer> or, ala Wisconsin, coolio
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. And am now beginning my savings drive to get the Mac I want for me, which is the 17" MacBook Pro with all the trimmings. Of course, at $3600, that's going to take me a bit.
07:06 <+perlDreamer> nice laptop, though
07:08 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, it is. Just hope it's really worth the investment. I try and buy one new PC about every 5 years.
07:08 < PedersenMJ> I do *not* want to be considering another new laptop in a mere 3 years. That will annoy me.
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07:19 <+perlDreamer> I buy a laptop every three years, but I only budget $1k for them
07:20 < PedersenMJ> I've only recently turned to laptops (ie: My last purchase, and it's now hitting four years).
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07:32 <+perlDreamer> I've made an invisible asset.
07:33 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ, have you ever tried to import a package, then commit it, then import it again?
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07:34 <+perlDreamer> Don't do it to a production system.
07:34 <+perlDreamer> This is what it does
07:34 <+perlDreamer> 1) Your package disappears from the Asset Manager.
07:34 <+perlDreamer> The Assets disappear from the listing in the Asset Manager.
07:35 < PedersenMJ> Nope, never done it. Didn't think of it, either, though it would have been easy enough of a mistake to make.
07:35 <+perlDreamer> 3) You can find them again if you search, but you cannot view or edit them.
07:35 <+perlDreamer> this is totally weird.
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18:03 < perlm> Is there a 7.3.9 due out tomorrow?  I go to the site after a few days and see there have been *two* releases since the last stable.
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18:23 < greghacke> what is BAD?
18:23 < gooeybot> BAD is Broken As Designed or Sometimes you just have to go back to the beginning
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20:36 < greghacke> crythias - how you get the +v?
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21:14 < crythia1> oh
21:14 < crythia1> sniff
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19:44 < mikeraz> Installation question here ...
19:45 < mikeraz> I've downloaded and uncompressed/tarred the WRE for ubuntu.  Now what?  I have a tree with ...  Hopefully the answer is on the Plain Black web site in a place I've not found.
19:46 <+MrHairgrease> mike
19:47 <+MrHairgrease> there is a readme in the wre/docs directory
19:47 <+MrHairgrease> also 
19:47 <+MrHairgrease> in the wiki on plainblack there's a step by step manual
19:48 <+MrHairgrease> http://www.plainblack.com/support/community-wiki/community-wiki/installing-webgui-using-the-wre-for-linux
19:48 < mikeraz> Ah! Wiki!  wiki good.
19:48 < mikeraz> Thank you, that should do it.
19:48 <+MrHairgrease> ok
19:48 <+MrHairgrease> good luck
19:48 <+MrHairgrease> one tip
19:49 < mikeraz> FWIW the Ubuntu tarball does not include the readme in wre/docs
19:49 <+MrHairgrease> if you screw up one step
19:49 < mikeraz> but the install should do it too.
19:49 < mikeraz> "if"?
19:49 <+MrHairgrease> ditch the entire wre tree under data
19:49 < mikeraz> :)
19:50 <+MrHairgrease> it's not the most user friendly tool on the earth yet =)
19:50 <+MrHairgrease> but it sure is handy
19:50 < mikeraz> Well, I;m tossing an installation up to compare it to Drupal
19:51 <+MrHairgrease> ok
19:51 <+MrHairgrease> just don't be put off by installing it
19:51 < mikeraz> What's with the "no running processes on port 80" requirement?  I have to shut down apache to use this?
19:51 <+MrHairgrease> yes
19:51 <+MrHairgrease> b/c it has it's own apache
19:51 < mikeraz> That's a killer.
19:51 <+MrHairgrease> it sets up two apache servers for you
19:52 <+MrHairgrease> a mod_proxy on port 80
19:52 <+MrHairgrease> and a mod_perl on port 81
19:52 <+MrHairgrease> so you can
19:52 <+MrHairgrease> configure mod_proxy to proxy all requests to your other server
19:52 <+MrHairgrease> which you put on port 82 or what you like
19:53 <+MrHairgrease> If you need you won apache on port 80
19:53 <+MrHairgrease> you cannot use the wre
19:53 <+MrHairgrease> and you should install manually
19:53 < mikeraz> Hmmm, so I put existing apache on, for this example, port 82 get WebGui running it will proxy everything not webgui bound to apache on port 82
19:53 <+MrHairgrease> if you tell mod_proxy to do that
19:53 <+MrHairgrease> not by default of course
19:54 < mikeraz> standard mod_proxy behavior
19:54 < mikeraz> squirt things to another box if needed
19:54 <+MrHairgrease> I'm not a mod_proxy guru
19:54 <+MrHairgrease> but the wre sets it up like this
19:55 <+MrHairgrease> proxy everything to port 81
19:55 <+MrHairgrease> where mod_perl is running
19:56 <+MrHairgrease> It uses the mod_proxy to prevent slow connections from 
19:56 <+MrHairgrease> hijacking too many mod_perl processes
19:56 <+MrHairgrease> which benefits performance
19:58 < mikeraz> While I'm weighing my options, I searched for "manual install" on the wiki and it came up empty
19:58 <+MrHairgrease> that could be
19:58 <+MrHairgrease> the wiki thing is pretty new
19:58 < mikeraz> back to forums I presume
19:58 <+MrHairgrease> actually there's a contest for writing up new wiki articles
19:58 <+MrHairgrease> there used to be some online reference
19:58 <+MrHairgrease> on installing it manually
20:02 < mikeraz> Maybe the Q "Best way to install from beginning" by Meuller, with a long linked to reply from alafondo.  Starts with "download dapper drake" and goes through the whole OS setup, Perl upgrade, CPAN visits and such
20:02 <+MrHairgrease> there is an install.txt in the webgui source packages
20:02 <+MrHairgrease> under docs
20:03 <+MrHairgrease> that file explains the manual process albeit very compact
20:04 < mikeraz> That would be a better source.  Thanks much.  (Glad I have spare test servers)
20:04 <+MrHairgrease> good luck
20:10 < mikeraz> I'd better have another cup of coffee and get out for some exercise to get my blood flowing.  This not finding the install.txt, and not checking the Administrators section on the web site, is braindead.
20:11 <+MrHairgrease> i agree
20:11 <+MrHairgrease> coffee is good =)
20:17 < mikeraz> since the spare server is handy I thought a quick start would be to take a run with the WRE
20:17 < mikeraz> step 5 gave me pause:
20:17 < mikeraz> 5. Create your DNS entries (or add to /etc/hosts) for the sites you
20:17 < mikeraz> will be using, including the AWStats site.
20:18 < mikeraz> That mean the DNS names I'll use for accessing the site?  
20:18 <+MrHairgrease> yes
20:18 <+MrHairgrease> i guess that
20:18 <+MrHairgrease> if they're already in the normal dns system
20:18 <+MrHairgrease> you don't need to do that
20:19 <+MrHairgrease> but I'm not sure
20:19 < mikeraz> They are, I've lots in bind's internal view
20:19 <+MrHairgrease> in that case
20:19 < mikeraz> What's the implications of answering yes or no to "Will this be a Dev only site?"
20:19 <+MrHairgrease> a dev only site is only for webgui developers
20:19 <+MrHairgrease> it will add Apache2::Reload to the apache conf
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> which automatically reloads changed code
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> it will slow the system down
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> also
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> you have no awstats
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> and probably backup is missing too
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> if you're evaluating
20:20 <+MrHairgrease> don't do a dev-only site
20:21 < mikeraz> Comprehensive answer there.  Thanks
20:21 <+MrHairgrease> np
20:33 < mikeraz> "Do you haveWebGUI local or should I get it from a mirror?", since I have the wre tarball I'm assuming local. ?
20:34 < Hinrik> uh
20:34 < Hinrik> it doesn't matter where you download it
20:34 <+MrHairgrease> yeah use local
20:34 < Hinrik> that's why they call it "mirrors"
20:34 <+MrHairgrease> currently there's only one mirror
20:35 <+MrHairgrease> being plainblack
20:35 <+MrHairgrease> somehow it's slow sometimes
20:35 <+MrHairgrease> local is prefereable
20:35 < mikeraz> What is the question referring to?
20:35 < Hinrik> that question doesn't make much sense
20:35 < mikeraz> next one asking for path to the file,  which "the file"
20:36 <+MrHairgrease> the webgui tarball
20:36 < mikeraz> WRE or Source?
20:36 <+MrHairgrease> source
20:37 < mikeraz> So the path to file should include the source filename?
20:37 <+MrHairgrease> yes
20:38 < mikeraz> Glad you're here, that is one I would not have figured out without excessive head against wall banging time
20:38 <+MrHairgrease> heh
20:39 <+MrHairgrease> as i said
20:39 <+MrHairgrease> it is not yet the most userfriendly installation tool in the world
20:39 <+MrHairgrease> =)
20:39 < mikeraz> an edited log of this transcript submitted to the right place will be a small step in addressing that.
20:40 <+MrHairgrease> I've heard that plainblack is working on a much more improved version
20:41 < mikeraz> a little more verbosity in the install Q&A alone would go a long ways
20:41 <+MrHairgrease> i know
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20:48 < mikeraz> Well heckums, once that buzzed through it's up and looking flashy
20:49 <+MrHairgrease> ok
20:49 <+MrHairgrease> have fun
20:55 < mikeraz> In the FAQ for migrating Existing Site to WRE it reads like migrating an existing WebGUI site to the new install.
20:55 <+MrHairgrease> that could be
20:55 <+MrHairgrease> do you have an url?
20:57 < mikeraz> for an existing example that is not a WebGUI install?  http://www.patch.com/
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> no
20:57 <+MrHairgrease> to the faq
20:59 < mikeraz> sorry, not FAQ, install docs :  http://www.plainblack.com/wre/existing-site-to-wre
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> that faq is about converting an existing manual webgui install
21:00 <+MrHairgrease> to a wre based wg install
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21:06 < mikeraz> So it reads.  
21:06 < mikeraz> I can see why there's a wiki content contest.  The amount of hive mind to absorb is huge.
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--- Day changed Mon Jan 29 2007
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06:04 <+perlDreamer> evening, guys
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06:30 <+perlDreamer> howdy
06:30 < PedersenMJ> How do, how do?
06:31 < PedersenMJ> Hey, preaction, you around? Might have an actual bug (though small) in the calendar.
06:31 <+perlDreamer> there are already some calendar bugs logged, you might want to check for dupes
06:32 < PedersenMJ> This is also true. This one, though, might also be working as designed, or not even be a feasible bug to fix.
06:32 <+perlDreamer> what is it?
06:32 < PedersenMJ> Creating a new event always defaults to today, even if you've selected a different date in the calendar.
06:34 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and that's if it even *is* a bug. If it's not, I don't want to file it as a bug. (btw, version is still 7.3.5).
06:34 <+perlDreamer> That may be a bug, or an oversight.  It's always safer to file it as a bug and then let people reclassify it as an RFE.
06:35 <+perlDreamer> The code for adding an event does accept a form param called "start".
06:35 <+perlDreamer> So I'm guessing a bug
06:35 <+perlDreamer> (it also accepts "end")
06:35 <+perlDreamer> It's probably as simple as appending that to the url for adding an event with the view is by day.
06:35 < PedersenMJ> That's likely the start time (also part of creating a new one).
06:36 <+perlDreamer> yeah
06:36 < PedersenMJ> It's also very likely that there's a PEBKAC problem, and I don't want to exacerbate it by making a bug or rfe when it's something simple/stupid.
06:37 <+perlDreamer> Do you want me to take a look at it?
06:37 <+perlDreamer> I think people will take _your_ word for it. Really.
06:38 < PedersenMJ> If you wish. It's not even a huge deal to me. It is (at most) a minor usability issue.
06:39 < PedersenMJ> And I just realized: I got that from somebody else. I'm going to confirm it myself.
06:40 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, now I can see it. It's there. And isn't huge.
06:40 < PedersenMJ> I'll double-check and see if that working as designed, and then file a bug afterwards if not. I can be patient, definitely.
06:41 < PedersenMJ> Anyway, how are you?
06:41 <+perlDreamer> I'm in week four of a tweaked back muscle.
06:42 < PedersenMJ> Ouch. How'd you do it?
06:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm not sure.
06:43 <+perlDreamer> This happens occasionally, but usually only lasts a few days
06:44 <+perlDreamer> After week 5 I'm going to see a doctor
06:44 < PedersenMJ> I'm planning on seeing on soon myself, and I'm only on week two. Did mine while moving.
06:45 <+perlDreamer> This may be an old moving injury, too.  From like '96
06:45 <+perlDreamer> See one soon!
06:46 < PedersenMJ> Wow, now I'm definitely worried. This is just (mostly) tender, with proper back support, the tenderness disappears.
06:53 < PedersenMJ> And, yes, I was being serious. My mom has a history of back problems. I really don't want to get my own history started with this move.
07:08 <+perlDreamer> I'm calling it a night.  Good luck hacking!
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17:21 <@khenn> mornin
17:23 < greghacke> gutten morgen!
17:24 <@khenn> I don't speak greek
17:24 < greghacke> german?  I could do russian.  maybe a bit of turkish?
17:28 <@khenn> I speak every language fluently except for Greek
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17:52 < PedersenMJ> Good morning.
17:53 < greghacke> dobre dehn!
17:54 < PedersenMJ> Cual idioma has hablado?
17:54 < greghacke> ruskye yazeka
17:56 < PedersenMJ> Ah, no hablo russo, perdon. Solo hablo ingles y espanol ahora.
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18:24 <@khenn> it's all greek to me
18:27 <@preaction> i know! today I can write some automated regression tests for some assets
18:30 < greghacke> what you beating on, preaction?
18:30 <@preaction> i've got an entire day with nothing to do
18:31 <@preaction> so i'm going to do bugfixing, but since i'm doing that, i may as well get some regression tests written
18:31 < greghacke> i wish i were in that boat.
18:32 < PedersenMJ> Hey, preaction, question about the calendar, if you have a sec?
18:32 <@preaction> sure, but if it's the same issue as last night, that's a bug
18:32 < PedersenMJ> Perfect. That's what I was going to ask. Will file it right now.
18:32 < PedersenMJ> Just didn't want to file a bug for something working as designed.
18:33 <@preaction> even if it's not a bug, it gives the entire community a chance to look at it and say "hmm... is this indeed how we want it to work?"
18:33 <@preaction> i mean, i may have wanted it to work like that, but does everyone else?
18:33 < greghacke> now i have to look at the bug...
18:33 <@preaction> i should probably say that at this point it almost seems as if another person wrote that thing
18:34 < greghacke> this is the endDate before start date?
18:37 <@preaction> greghacke: that error means that something before "WHERE" is causing the problem
18:38 < PedersenMJ> Bug filed.
18:38 <@preaction> greghacke: it's because you're missing a "FROM" clause
18:39 < greghacke> IDIOT!
18:39 < greghacke> that's me
18:40 < greghacke> (boot to head)
18:40 < greghacke> close that.
18:41 <@preaction> or i could see if Roy figures it out ;)
18:41 < greghacke> :-0
18:42 <@preaction> too late now, you told him :p
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18:42 < greghacke> yeah - couldn't help it.  if i feel stupid, I let the world know
18:49 <@preaction> PedersenMJ: okay, that bug's because those templates don't even use the form parameter that activates that feature, and i suppose also when they start at such and such a time, the end time is still always "today", which is bad
18:49 <@preaction> i'll make a note and get to it today or tomorrow
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19:08 < PedersenMJ> I'm just glad it's a simple fix (well, from the sounds of it, anyway).
19:13 <+perlDreamer> never say "fix" to an animal person
19:13 <+perlDreamer> not to say preaction is an animal
19:14 <+perlDreamer> just that you should be aware of that particular idiom
19:14 <@preaction> guess what? mom's taking me to the vet to get TUTORED!
19:15 <@preaction> anyone know why an i18n call would throw a "Not a CODE reference" runtime error?
19:15 <@preaction> but only on pb.com, not on a test site?
19:15 <+perlDreamer> test site like demo or like dev?
19:15 <@preaction> dev
19:15 <@preaction> i'll make up a demo to see if that works
19:15 <+perlDreamer> yeah, I boogered up some i18n code in the project manager
19:16 <+perlDreamer> $i18n->('key')
19:16 <+perlDreamer> it's fixed in dev
19:16 <@preaction> shit dude... that went OUT
19:16 <+perlDreamer> I know
19:16 <@preaction> i'll patch pb.com
19:17 <@preaction> i suppose i should've seen that :p
19:17 <+perlDreamer> I shouldn't have written it in the first place
19:17 <+perlDreamer> and I should have tested it in the second place
19:19 <@preaction> eh, it happens
19:23 <+perlDreamer> besides, adding tasks just means more work? :)
19:24 <@preaction> amen to that
19:24 <@preaction> but apparently the suits like adding tasks for us shirts
19:25 <+perlDreamer> are you bug fixing this morning?
19:25 < greghacke> ya know, i just can't see calling rizen a 'suit'
19:25 <@preaction> i've got nothing to do, no project hours left, so i'm doing whatever i want really
19:27 <@preaction> anyone else think that we should make www_* call other methods in order to get a hashref of template variables (so that we can perform regression tests on those hashrefs)
19:27 <+perlDreamer> yes!
19:27 <+perlDreamer> yes!!!
19:27 <+perlDreamer> that's also step one to true inheritance of assets
19:28 <@preaction> the calendar does it to some extent, with the viewMonth, viewWeek, and viewDay methods
19:28 <@preaction> perhaps a "getTemplateView" "getTemplateViewMonth" "getTemplateEditTask" etc...
19:28 <@preaction> or maybe "getVars"
19:28 <+perlDreamer> getVarsView
19:29 <+perlDreamer> getVarsViewMonth
19:29 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:29 <@preaction> getTemplate sounds like we're getting a WebGUI::Asset::Template object
19:29 <@preaction> getVars, while ambiguous, can be assigned a better meaning
19:29 <+perlDreamer> getTemplateVars.+$ ?
19:30 <@preaction> would probably be optimal, if verbose
19:30 <+perlDreamer> yeah
19:30 <+perlDreamer> the verbosity requirements for WGBP are challenging
19:30 <@preaction> honestly, after reading WGBP, i'm starting to like verbose
19:30 <+perlDreamer> have you ever heard Damian talk in person?
19:30 <@preaction> less going through docs to figure out "okay, wtf did I mean by Vars this time"
19:31 <@preaction> nein
19:31 <+perlDreamer> if you ever have a chance, go see him
19:31 <+perlDreamer> he's like Robin Williams mixed with Kernighan and Ritchie
19:31 <@preaction> he does look entirely not like i expected him to
19:32 <@preaction> and then i learn he's got a PhD
19:32 <+perlDreamer> I took a class from him in '01
19:32 <@preaction> i expected, "Damian, elite hax0r, must be young and headstrong"
19:32 <+perlDreamer> he'd just bome back from talking with NASDAQ
19:32 <+perlDreamer> they used Parse::RecDescent
19:32 <+perlDreamer> and he said he'd never trade on the NASDAQ again :)
19:33 <@preaction> consulting services?
19:33 <+perlDreamer> Damian was lecturing to them about using P::RD
19:34 <@preaction> they weren't?
19:34 <@preaction> or wrongly?
19:34 -!- khenn is now known as khenn_afk
19:34 <@preaction> P::RD has always looked like a monster to me
19:34 <+perlDreamer> they were, but at the time P::RD was something of a hack
19:34 <@preaction> it's not still?
19:34 <+perlDreamer> now it's the Regexp part of Perl 6
19:48 <@rizen> doug you're a genius
19:49 <@rizen> i don't know why i didn't think of having $asset->get() return a copy of the hashref
19:49 <@rizen> that would solve the problem everywhere
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20:06 < greghacke> the hashref  is slick
20:06 <+perlDreamer> ++preaction
20:07 <@preaction> was that me? i could've swore colin said it first
20:07 < greghacke> [17:26] preaction: anyone else think that we should make www_* call other methods in order to get a hashref of template variables (so that we can perform regression tests on those hashrefs)
20:08 <+perlDreamer> yeah, man.  That was pure preaction.
20:08 <@preaction> oh that
20:08 <@preaction> i meant the $asset->get()
20:09 < greghacke> not sure
20:10 <+perlDreamer> 02:08 <@preaction> i keep forgetting that $asset->get returns a reference instead of creating a copy and then returning a reference to it
20:10 <+perlDreamer> 02:08 <@preaction> to be honest, that's what ->get should do imho
20:10 <+perlDreamer> 02:08 <@preaction> create a copy, and then return a ref to the copy
20:10 <@preaction> oh, k
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20:33 < ckotil> bug: when an assets url contains a number the search asset will not search beneath that url.
20:34 < ckotil> im assuming the number is the cause of the problem i am seeing.
20:38 < ckotil> hrm. cant replicate it on the demo site.
20:38 <@preaction> hrm indeed
20:38 <@preaction> what's the asset that has the number in the url?
20:38 <@preaction> a thread/post?
20:38 < ckotil> page layout
20:40 < ckotil> fixed it. i had a redirect asset that had the same name. it wqas  confusing the search root select box.
20:40 < ckotil> im pretty sure that qualifies as a bug
20:40 <@preaction> same name, as in same "title"?
20:41 <@preaction> menuTitle?
20:41 < ckotil> heh. title
20:41 <@preaction> yeah, i think that qualifies
20:41 < ckotil> ill file it.
20:41 <@preaction> it shouldn't be making a hash based on something that can possibly have overlap
20:42 <@preaction> are layouts supposed to be RSS Capable?
20:44 < ckotil> dunno
21:08 <+perlDreamer> preaction: Are you sure it's paulie aka iPG aka MS etc.?
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21:08 <@preaction> ms tried to login from ip *, then iphone from same ip, then paulie 7 minutes later from same ip
21:08 <+perlDreamer> ah
21:09 <+perlDreamer> rizen has a ban on him
21:09 <@preaction> five logins from same ip in 10 minutes
21:09 <@preaction> i think he just disabled the accounts
21:09 <+perlDreamer> we're being astroturfed?
21:09 <@preaction> meh, i'll continue to respond to his points rather than attacking his (lack of) character
21:10 <@preaction> if anything, the show for the peanut gallery will render all his arguments worthless
21:10 <@preaction> in essence, he's his own worst enemy... at least get an ssh box and a proxy for god's sake
21:10 < greghacke> i'd almost laugh at him if it weren't so pitiful
21:12 <+perlDreamer> I figured out my asset package import bug.
21:13 <@preaction> if he'd give his points instead of refer to magic "problems", and if he'd stop the personal attacks against me, he might regain a shred of credibility
21:13 <@preaction> perlDreamer: fixable?
21:13 <+perlDreamer> I'm not sure.
21:13 <+perlDreamer> whoops
21:13 <+perlDreamer> phone
21:13 <+perlDreamer> gtg
21:13 <+perlDreamer> back later
21:13 <+perlDreamer> what a day....
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21:14 < greghacke> he seems to lack a basic sense of presence.  he just assumes he is both an expert and the center of the wG universe
21:22 < PedersenMJ> Is ms the person who posted the rant over on glaven.org?
21:28 < PedersenMJ> I've finally been reading that rant. Wow. Maybe his complaints applied before, but I've got none of his issues.
21:29 < greghacke> i understand his issues - i've never had them.  the 6x was a major migration.  options were no product or the dev we got.  i like what we got
21:31 < PedersenMJ> I didn't deal with the older stuff, ever. I think the oldest I've seen was 6.8.something. And I didn't use it much then. But absolutely I do not see his issues.
21:32 < greghacke> I was in the 5.x series near the end.  I saw a few issues but they were growing pains - nothing more.  and not only are they all gone but the results thus far are more than i expected
21:33 <@preaction> the person who wrote the rant at glaven.org was a former DonorWare employee. donorware has, just now, started to finally upgrade to the 7.x versions, they're still at 6.8.10
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21:34 <@preaction> they also had a lot of custom code to tie in with their customized system for managing donations for their client sites
21:34 < greghacke> well, i sat at 6.8.11 for 9 months
21:34 < greghacke> yeah, i've seen some of the donarware stuff
21:34 < PedersenMJ> Ah, so, basically, he didn't know what he was doing, and it was all pb's fault.
21:35 <@preaction> that rant was written for the 5.8 or even 6.2 serieses
21:35 < PedersenMJ> "didn't know what he was doing" == "running unstable software and trying to treat it as stable"
21:35 <@preaction> in a manner of speaking, yes
21:36 <@preaction> the 7.* series is where we're locking down the codebase, and we're running at least three separate dev threads to do it, regression tests, better error handling, and Perl Best Practices
21:36 <@preaction> and no, i didn't go to a marketing school
21:37 < PedersenMJ> I read your response to paulie, and I'm impressed. I don't think I would have been so restrained.
21:38 < PedersenMJ> bbiab. Finally going to get lunch.
21:38 <@preaction> that was the tone i was trying to set, getting me angry takes physical presence and intent, most people don't have the will (at least, never more than once)
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21:45 < ckotil> can list out menutitle and title of article assets contained within a page layout from the page layout template?
21:45 < ckotil> can I list*
21:45 < ckotil> from what ive found on the boards, ill have to issue an sql query to get the title. bc all i can get is the assetID of the article asets
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21:50 <@preaction> ckotil: if you join the "assetData" table on assetId and revisionDate (or find the max revisionDate), you'll get the title, you might also look at joining the wobject table if necessary
21:50  * preaction & errands
21:51 < ckotil> hrm. im afraid ill corrupt my data
21:52 < greghacke> well, you can't do writes with SQLReport so you can't corrupt it...  build a test until you get what you want
21:52 < ckotil> good idea.
21:53 < ckotil> but still, ill just use teh sqlreport to fetch teh names of each article asset. i was hoping some new variables were added to page layout :/
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22:11 < PedersenMJ> mrhairgrease: Responded to pm. However, as I'm actually on an im client, not irc, I don't know if it worked.
22:27 <+MrHairgrease> pedersenmj: it didn't
22:28 < PedersenMJ> Okay. Might need to enahnce the jabber-irc transport sometime, since there's a lot of features I'd like to see done. Anyway, to answer your question: No, I don't.
22:28 < PedersenMJ> Sorry to say, but I don't.
22:28 <+MrHairgrease> no problem
22:29 <+MrHairgrease> so anybody has a transcript of the chat with the pauli guy?
22:29 <+perlDreamer> it was on the forums
22:30 <+MrHairgrease> oh ok
22:30 <+MrHairgrease> i'll check ther then
22:30 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
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22:52 <@snapcount> I need someone to see if they can find anything that my patch will break
22:52 <+perlDreamer> sure
22:52 <@snapcount> AssetExportHtml.pm
22:52 < greghacke> break stuff!!!
22:52 <@snapcount> Replace line 124 with $filename = $index;
22:52 <@snapcount> and replace 125 with $path = $2;
22:53 <@snapcount> to test you'll need to change the url of /home to index.html
22:53 <@snapcount> and something under home to /index.html/getting_started
22:53 <@snapcount> for instance
22:53 <@snapcount> that's what the patch is supposed to fix as right now that page structure blows up
22:55 <@snapcount> oh crappy pants
22:55 <@snapcount> I see why it was like that
22:55 <@snapcount> that code works if you have /home/doggy.html
22:55 <@snapcount> hmm
22:55 <+perlDreamer> what's the goal of that part of the code?
22:55 <+perlDreamer> separate filename from path?
22:56 <@snapcount> to handle urls with dots in it
22:56 <+perlDreamer> use File::Path to do it for you
22:56 <@snapcount> it changes /home/index.html
22:56 <@snapcount> to folder home
22:56 <@snapcount> filename index.html inside folder
22:56 <@snapcount> but, if you have a url of /index.html/dogs
22:56 <@snapcount> that will blow up
22:56 <@snapcount> because index.html will be a file
22:56 <+perlDreamer> and a folder
22:57 <@snapcount> and then it will try to make a directory
22:57 <@snapcount> you got it
22:57 <+perlDreamer> WebGUI will let you do that
22:57 <@snapcount> sure
22:57 <+perlDreamer> similar to gun and foot problem?
22:57 <+perlDreamer> "all things are allowed but not all are beneficial" ?
22:57 <@snapcount> if you want your default page to load after an export it has to be called index.html
22:58 <@snapcount> now I think this is what this symlink non-sense is in the export feature
22:58 <@snapcount> I think it was written to handle this case but I'm not sure
22:58 <@snapcount> but I think that would break too
22:58 <@snapcount> b/c a symlink is still a filename
22:58 <@snapcount> just like a directory
22:58 <+perlDreamer> yeah
22:59 <+perlDreamer> did it used to work differently?
22:59 <@snapcount> so how would File::Path fix this?
22:59 <+perlDreamer> or have we always had this?
22:59 <+perlDreamer> it wo't
22:59 <+perlDreamer> it won't
22:59 <+perlDreamer> I thought the problem was different
22:59 <@snapcount> no it used to be broke worst
22:59 <@snapcount> but this case wasn't accounted for
22:59 <+perlDreamer> I don't think this is fixable
22:59 <@snapcount> we need to know which regex had the dot in it
23:00 <@snapcount> then we can order them correctly
23:00 <@snapcount> which part rather
23:00 <@snapcount> $1 or $2
23:00 <+perlDreamer> but was can never make a file and a directory with the same name
23:00 <+perlDreamer> we can never
23:00 <+perlDreamer> that problem is fundamental
23:00 <@snapcount> yeah I know
23:00 <@snapcount> what it should do is this:
23:01 <@snapcount> shit
23:01 <@snapcount> "/index.html/foo => /foo/index.html"
23:01 <+perlDreamer> then you have to rewrite all the internal URLs, too
23:01 <@snapcount> b/c all of the links inside of index.html will be
23:01 <@snapcount> "/foo/"
23:01 <@snapcount> not "/index.html"
23:01 <@snapcount> it should never be a folder
23:02 <@snapcount> am I making any sense
23:02 <@snapcount> ??
23:02 <+perlDreamer> yes
23:02 <+perlDreamer> how about a .htaccess file which sets the default page to something other than index.html?
23:02 <@snapcount> if it's "/foo/index.html" it should work as it does now
23:02 -!- rizen [n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
23:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by ChanServ
23:02 <@snapcount> well, we don't want to tie apache to the problem
23:02 <+perlDreamer> good point
23:03 <@snapcount> they can export to any webserver
23:03 <@snapcount> it needs to work like I said, I'm 99.999% sure
23:03 <@snapcount> but I don't know how to detect the order sanely
23:03 <@snapcount> another regex on $1 and $2 to see which one has the dot?
23:04 <+perlDreamer> what if they both do?
23:04 <@snapcount> so "/index.html/foo.html"
23:04 <+perlDreamer> yeah
23:04 <@snapcount> it should tell them they are a moron
23:04 <@snapcount> and to stop using webgui
23:04 <@snapcount> =D
23:05 <@snapcount> this is why I like discussing things in here
23:05 <@snapcount> and also why I hate it
23:05 <@snapcount> now I'm stumped again
23:05 <@snapcount> I guess the answer is what I said actually
23:05 <@snapcount> except don't call them a moron and all that
23:05 <@snapcount> it's an error
23:06 <+perlDreamer> "Unable to export pages due to user naming convention.  You may not have pages with URLs like /foo.html/bar.html if there exists a file called /foo.html"
23:06 <@snapcount> there is no logical way to handle that
23:06 <@snapcount> there you go
23:06 <+perlDreamer> document it, detect it, then error out and clean up everthing done up to that point
23:06 <+perlDreamer> leave no traces
23:06 <@snapcount> I think currently the export leaves files there when it "croaks"
23:07 <@snapcount> hahaha
23:07 <@snapcount> I made a pun
23:07  * snapcount hears crickets
23:07 <@snapcount> tough crowd
23:07 <+perlDreamer> I'm taping out a chip today
23:07 <+perlDreamer> bouncing back and forth on IRC
23:07 <@snapcount> I don't know what that means but it sounds hard
23:07 <+perlDreamer> you run 4 hours of automated tests on the layout databaste
23:08 <+perlDreamer> then manually verify that all test errors are caused by idiot programmers who don't build chips
23:08 <+perlDreamer> there's only about 250 errors to hand check
23:08 <@snapcount> ok, going to implement this hackery and see if it works... then we can see if there are any ideas on how to make it better
23:08 <@snapcount> sheesh
23:08 <@snapcount> that sounds hard
23:08 <+perlDreamer> just time consuming
23:08 <+perlDreamer> If you have time, write a test that does what you want to do to make sure it dies correctly
23:16 <@snapcount> man this is crap
23:16 <@snapcount> this thing already has 4 levels of if-dention
23:16 <+perlDreamer> can you refactor them so they don't nest?
23:16 <@snapcount> on it home skillet
23:17 <@snapcount> time for ze method
23:17 <@snapcount> make it perrty
23:17 <+perlDreamer> Let's hear it!
23:17 <+perlDreamer> Give me a W
23:18 <+perlDreamer> Give me a G
23:18 <+perlDreamer> Give me a B and a P
23:18 <+perlDreamer> What does it spell?
23:18 <+perlDreamer> wugibup
23:18 <+perlDreamer> Yea!
23:22  * perlDreamer hears snapcount's crickets
23:23 <@snapcount> hah
23:28 <@rizen> Note that WebGUI will perform incremental backups of your site database(s) as it upgrades. This should not be misconstrued as a full backup. This does not relieve you of your obligation to maintain full backups and conduct one before your upgrade.
23:29 <@rizen> do you think that statement gets the point across
23:29 <+perlDreamer> yes
23:29 <@rizen> or do i have to tell the user directly in the book that they are an idiot if they don't perform full backups prior to an upgrade
23:29 <@rizen> this is my little side comment
23:29 <@rizen> in the section about doing backups before the upgrade
23:29 <+perlDreamer> I would do it that way.
23:29 <+perlDreamer> Here at work we have this list
23:29 <+perlDreamer> It's called Thumb Breakers
23:29 <+perlDreamer> if you do it, a nasty little man comes by and breaks your thumbs
23:30 <+perlDreamer> Make a list like that
23:30 <@rizen> it amazes me how many people don't perform any backups before they do an upgrade, and then it's webgui's fault because webgui's upgrade failed
23:30 <@rizen> it's not their fault for not performing a backup
23:30 <+perlDreamer> oh come, on
23:30 <+perlDreamer> It's not WebGUI's fault
23:30 <+perlDreamer> It's yours
23:31 <+perlDreamer> you're the guy that gets the hate mail for that
23:31 <@rizen> me?
23:31 < gooeybot> hmmm... rizen is a lamer!
23:31 <@rizen> me personally?
23:31 <+perlDreamer> no
23:31 <+perlDreamer> but that's what happens
23:32 <@rizen> it may be my fault if webgui doesn't complete it's upgrade, but it's certainly not my fault that they have no way to restore their site after a failure
23:32 <+perlDreamer> you know that
23:32 <+perlDreamer> I know that
23:32 <+perlDreamer> the user doesn't get that
23:32 <@rizen> well anyway..i think that language is going to have to cut it
23:32 <@rizen> perhaps i should go find an image that illustrates the point
23:37 <+perlDreamer> I need to find a way to get the help contents into a wG search engine
23:38 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/plain_black_support/wiki-template-variables-/2#idrKyfm7c7Gqqnbb5T03boVA
23:38 <+perlDreamer> ckotil: ping
23:38 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: Tuesday (January 30) through Thursday (February 1) are WebGUI bugfix days! Let's clear the list!
23:39 <@rizen> pd: not possible unless you create a help asset, and then it's still not possible to do it right
23:39 <@rizen> the search engine is for asset search
23:39 <@rizen> and nothing else
23:41 <+perlDreamer> is it okay to try and develop a separate system to allow searching of the help?
23:42 <+perlDreamer> (standard not until 7.4 disclaimer applying, of course)
23:43 <+MrHairgrease> bugfix days
23:43 <+MrHairgrease> cool
23:43 <+MrHairgrease> unfortunately I won't have time to chip in those days
23:47 <@rizen> pd: yes
23:48 -!- pjesi [i=pjesi@klefi01.litlahraun.is] has joined #webgui
23:48 <@rizen> pd: it can't use an index though
23:48 <@rizen> it has to be realtime
23:48 <+perlDreamer> due to i18n?
23:48 <@rizen> mrhairgrease....do you want me to call up joeri and tell him that we MUST HAVE YOU!!!!
23:49 <@rizen> pd: due to the fluid and multi-lingual nature of i18n
23:49 <+MrHairgrease> You do that
23:50 <+MrHairgrease> But then I still won't have time till friday
23:50 <@rizen> in addition, my fear is that an indexed system for help is one of those things that won't be used very much, but will be an ongoing thorn in our sides
23:50 <@rizen> either the index won't get updated on time
23:50 <@rizen> or who knows what
23:50 <@rizen> the less complex it is the better as far as i'm concerned
23:50 <+MrHairgrease> what will the performance hit be on realtime help searching?
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> no too much i guess
23:51 <+perlDreamer> bad
23:51 <@rizen> who cares
23:51 <@rizen> it's going to be hit so infrequently that it won't matter
23:51 <+MrHairgrease> especially since it won't be used much
23:51 <@rizen> honestly, i'd prefer there to be no help search
23:51 <@rizen> only due to the problems it's likely going to cause
23:52 <+MrHairgrease> it's easy enough to make some function that searches through the i18n
23:52 <+MrHairgrease> that will only cause problems when you change the i18n and help formats
23:52 <+MrHairgrease> the HoH structure that is
23:53 <+perlDreamer> you can get around that by using the Operation::Help internals
23:53 <+perlDreamer> it will hide the implementation from you
23:54 <+perlDreamer> but whatever the help/i18n implementation will have to be closely tied to the search
--- Day changed Tue Jan 30 2007
00:03 <+crythias> BUSCA!
00:04 < PedersenMJ> que buscas?
00:04 <+crythias> cualqiere
00:04 <+crythias> cerveza mas fina
00:05 <+crythias> dos equis, y como eso.
00:05 <+crythias> modelo negro.
00:05 <+crythias> y ademas, estoy buscando para una cosa facil por el LDAP+Samba
00:05 < PedersenMJ> Ay, a mi no me gusta la cerveza. Prefiero bebidas mas dulces.
00:06 <+crythias> mas dulces? como que?
00:06 <+crythias> Jarritos?
00:08 < PedersenMJ> no hay una cosa facil por el LDAP y Samba. He trabajado en eso, y es muy dificil funcionar bien. Es posible, pero siempre hay problemas pequenos.
00:08 <+crythias> sigh. pero necesito eso porque estoy tratando usar un "Single Sign On" para un Linux box.
00:08 < PedersenMJ> Las bebidas que prefiero: Margaritas. Todos los tipos de margaritas siempre me gustan mucho.
00:08 <+crythias> http://www.mexgrocer.com/brand-jarritos.html
00:09 <+crythias> ooh. Tamarind Jarritos!
00:09 <+crythias> me quiero los margaritas.
00:10 <+crythias> bueno, me voy a mi casa. hasta muy pronto.
00:10 <+perlDreamer> hasta luego
00:11 <+crythias> later.
00:11 <@snapcount> alright perlDreamer 
00:11 <@snapcount> pick this apart
00:11 <@snapcount> I'm going to start testing it
00:11 <@snapcount> http://pastebin.com/870706
00:12 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has left #webgui []
00:14 -!- WebGUI [n=synq@82-171-175-41.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has joined #webgui
00:14 < WebGUI> good day
00:14 < WebGUI> night even
00:14 <@snapcount> always wanted to talk to WebGUI
00:15 < WebGUI> hi there all, JT, Martin
00:16 <@rizen> howdy koen
00:16 <@snapcount> this is too hard and too confusing
00:16 <@snapcount> I'm going to write a test to do this
00:16 <+perlDreamer> ++snapcount for testing
00:16 < PedersenMJ> miera. me pierdo crythias por mi trabajo.
00:17 < WebGUI> JT: good thing, sqashing bugs
00:17 <@snapcount> since I'm returning a hash ref I can test it w/o creating folders and files
00:17 < WebGUI> I'll try to find some extra time this week to find some
00:17 <@snapcount> it's making my head spin
00:17 <@rizen> i prefer to crush them...but i'll settle for squashing
00:17 <+perlDreamer> just push urls and indeces intoit
00:17 <@rizen> sweet man
00:17 <@rizen> glad to have you
00:17 < WebGUI> crushing is more your style, I agree
00:18 < WebGUI> I used to be really good in finding the really annoying ones
00:18 < WebGUI> I'll make shure to get Wouter to join in too
00:18 <@rizen> sweet
00:18 < WebGUI> and tomorrow Joeri will be back from his ski-ing holiday
00:18 <+perlDreamer> how 'bout Arjan and Len?  Can we rope them in somehow?
00:19 < WebGUI> I'm sure he will find some time too
00:19 <@rizen> i'm hoping for the first time in many years that we can have a truely stable version of webgui again
00:19 <@rizen> now if we could just get martin to help us
00:19 < WebGUI> Len is very very bussy lately doing some contracting work
00:19 <@rizen> he's saying he doesn't have any time
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> i haven't
00:19 < WebGUI> :)
00:19 <+MrHairgrease> and you sweettalk koen all you want
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> but it won't help
00:20 < WebGUI> that's right
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> we just drink beer together these days
00:20 < WebGUI> I have no influence over Martin
00:20 < WebGUI> martin: that's a good plan
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> yes it is
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> actually
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> let's do it
00:20 <+MrHairgrease> drink beer
00:21 < WebGUI> maybe I could find some bugs and show them to you over a couple of beers ;)
00:21  * MrHairgrease get's a fresh jupiler from the fridge
00:21 < WebGUI> I'm in Tilbury right now, no beer for me today
00:21 < WebGUI> I have to get up early in the morning tomorrow
00:22 < WebGUI> I'll settle for a milk then
00:22 <+MrHairgrease> hahahahaha
00:22 <+MrHairgrease> BURGER!
00:22 < WebGUI> hehe
00:22 <+MrHairgrease> that's dutch by the way
00:22 < WebGUI> sure, man, I bought a marvelous kitchen today
00:22 <+MrHairgrease> it has nothing to do with meatproducts
00:22 < WebGUI> with separate oven and microwave
00:23 < WebGUI> burger, pronounced in the right way is a negative form of citicen
00:23 < WebGUI> zen
00:24 < WebGUI> JT: is the discussion for a separate stable vs. development version of webgui open now?
00:24 <@rizen> nope
00:24 < WebGUI> ok
00:24 < WebGUI> I won't mention it then
00:24 <@rizen> and won't ever be until someone overcomes the hurdle
00:24 < WebGUI> I know
00:24 < WebGUI> the hurdle is just time and/or money
00:24 <@rizen> no
00:25 <@rizen> the hurdle is a technical problem
00:25 <@rizen> if you you have two different branches
00:25 < WebGUI> that is solvable with time and/or money?
00:25 <@rizen> not that i'm aware of
00:25 < WebGUI> you'll have to merge them
00:25 <@rizen> unless you can solve time travle
00:25 <@rizen> tavel
00:25 < WebGUI> and merging costs time and/or money?
00:25 <@rizen> travel
00:25 <@rizen> no
00:25 < WebGUI> or is that too simply thought?\
00:25 <@rizen> 2 branches
00:26 <@rizen> someone runs the stable branch
00:26 < WebGUI> ah
00:26 <@rizen> then they want to get to the unstable branch
00:26 <@rizen> but their schema doesn't match the schema of the other person
00:26 <@rizen> other branch
00:26 <@rizen> i mean
00:26 < WebGUI> and that is where the real meaning of a 'frozen' version comes to play
00:26 <@rizen> it's the same reason why we can't put out 7.3.334333 once we've put out 7.4.0
00:27 <@rizen> until that hurdle is overcome...which may be never
00:27 <@rizen> we cannot discuss stable vs dev branches
00:27 < WebGUI> I agree that the hurdle exists
00:27 < WebGUI> and I think it is unsolvable
00:27 < WebGUI> unless...
00:28 <@rizen> i don't think anything is unsolvable...i just don't think i'm smart enough to do it
00:28 < WebGUI> hehe
00:28 < WebGUI> ok
00:28 <@rizen> so someone else will have to come on the scene and figure it out
00:28 < WebGUI> I'll settle for that :)
00:28 <@rizen> maybe after martin is finished with college, he'll be smart enough to figure it out
00:28 <@rizen> =)_
00:29 < WebGUI> I think the only way to work around that hurdle is accepting that getting 7.4.x to be a seamless upgrade from 7.3.watheverstable will cost a lot of effort
00:29 < WebGUI> each time you want to switch versions
00:29 < WebGUI> I agree, that is very very hard
00:29 < WebGUI> and if you do that, you'll get a lot less new versions
00:29 <@rizen> for other apps it's not so hard, cuz they don't have so much data to worry about
00:30 < WebGUI> to that I agree
00:30 <@rizen> firefox has preferences and bookmarks
00:30 <@rizen> big deal
00:30 <@rizen> both heavily structured, and both small amounts of data
00:30 <+perlDreamer> how about plone?
00:30 <@rizen> also..if you lose someone's preferences or bookmarks..they might be pissed
00:30 <@rizen> but they won't sue you
00:30 < WebGUI> other apps (like webgui, if that is possible) always break a mayor updates
00:30 <@rizen> plone doesn't do it
00:31 <@rizen> when you go from plone 2 - 3 
00:31 <@rizen> you either have to use a migration utility
00:31 <@rizen> which is a pain
00:31 < WebGUI> exactly
00:31 <@rizen> or start over
00:31 <@rizen> which is a pain
00:31 < WebGUI> true
00:31 < WebGUI> so the choice is...
00:31 <@rizen> our policy has always been "your data comes with no matter what we do to webgui"
00:31 < WebGUI> pain in waiting before all bugs of 7.3.x are fixed before going to 7.4.x
00:31 <@rizen> and i think people like that about webgui
00:32 < WebGUI> or pain in switching from 7.3.x to 7.4.x
00:32 < WebGUI> in both ways, to have a (real) stable version of webgui costs a lot of time and slows down new features in webgui
00:33 < WebGUI> but to my oppinion WebGUI has enough features to last for at least the coming 2 years
00:33 < WebGUI> and my english is getting worse each day
00:33 <@rizen> not enough coffee today koen?
00:33 < WebGUI> it's 23:33 here
00:33 < WebGUI> and I got out of bed at 8:00
00:34 < WebGUI> and I have to get up tomorrow at 7:30
00:34 < WebGUI> so I'm getting tired
00:34 < WebGUI> no coffee will help me here, besides, as Martin pointed out, I'm really becoming a BURGER!
00:37 < WebGUI> ok
00:37 < WebGUI> time for bed
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> no
00:38 < WebGUI> I'll irc you tomorrow
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> time for blackadder!
00:38 < WebGUI> bye~~
00:38 <+MrHairgrease> later
00:38 -!- WebGUI [n=synq@82-171-175-41.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl] has quit ["sleeeeepyyyy"]
00:40 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrAfkGrease
00:45 <@rizen> if anyone asks about the slowness of plainblack.com this afternoon it's because i'm performing some disk intensive maintenance stuff
00:48 <@snapcount> wow
00:48 <@snapcount> tests rule
00:49 <@preaction> yes, yes they do
00:49 <@rizen> shhhh...perl dreamer is here
00:49 <@rizen> he'll get a big head
00:49 <@snapcount> 7 of my 18 test urls are not returning the expected path info
00:49 <@snapcount> this freaking rules
00:54 <@preaction> there's never enough pocky...
01:04 -!- pjesi_ [n=pjesi@client-82-26-25-241.winn.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
01:04 <@snapcount> is there something I should know about is () comparing undef?
01:05 <@snapcount> should I be using a different test subroutine for that?
01:05 <@preaction> () is not undef, it's an empty list
01:05 <@preaction> so () in scalar context does evaluate to false, it is defined
01:05 <@preaction> so defined +() should be true
01:05 < greghacke> I leave for a bit and it gets noisy...  sheesh
01:06 <@preaction> snapcount: nevermind, defined +() evals to false
01:07 <+perlDreamer> w00t!
01:07 <+perlDreamer> tests ho!
01:07 <@snapcount> uh
01:07 <@snapcount> that printed wrong
01:07 <@snapcount> the sub is
01:07 <@snapcount> "is"
01:07 <@snapcount> is what I was trying to type
01:07 <+perlDreamer> is($this, undef, "this is supposed to be undef");
01:07 <+perlDreamer> works fine
01:07 <+perlDreamer> I do it all the time
01:07 <@snapcount> ok
01:18 -!- perlm [n=chatzill@casr-dev.fwsm2ppuser.ou.edu] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 1.5.0.9/0000000000]"]
01:39 < greghacke> snapcount: you get a look at my SQLForm reply?
01:39 <@snapcount> yeah... there are some login requests that pushed you to the bottom of the list
01:39 <@snapcount> I'm just about done with them and I'll reply to you
01:39 < greghacke> OK.  totally understand.
01:40 <@snapcount> we got slammed a bit so sorry for the delay, I didn't forget about you =)
01:40 < greghacke> I just hope I am right ahd what i want is possible.
01:40 < greghacke> :-)
01:40 <+perlDreamer> rizen: note that we can't do anything that's possible anymore
01:40 <+perlDreamer> just the impossible
01:40 <@rizen> cool
01:40 <@rizen> i've been meaning to do that anyway
01:41 < greghacke> i really need to not talk anymore.
01:41 <+perlDreamer> greghacke: you're a good sport.   Thanks, man.
01:41 <+perlDreamer> that's the first good laugh I've had all day
01:41 < greghacke> rizen: any games you want from Toy Fair Neuenberg?
01:43 <@snapcount> what was the name of the runHourly activity that will purge trash in 6.8
01:44 <@snapcount> nm... there is a config value in there I need too
01:44  * snapcount starts up the wG 6.8 vm
01:46 <@rizen> greg: anything that's cool
01:46 <@rizen> i don't even know what's out right now
01:46 <@rizen> no toys
01:46 <@rizen> just games
01:46 < greghacke> rizen: ok, Will IM'd me earlier with a "what you want" in games.  I'll have him snag something fun.
01:46 <@rizen> preferably board can card games as opposed to RPG
01:49 -!- PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] has left #webgui []
01:52 <+perlDreamer> well, while I'm waiting for a phone call, can I get some help with the Package bug fix?
01:52 <+perlDreamer> I now what's causing the double import package bug that I reported (and that I think is Frank's problem, too)
01:54 -!- patspam [i=patspam@203-214-35-18.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #webgui
01:56 < patspam> hey guys, hope that bug squashing is going well
01:57 -!- MrAfkGrease [n=martin@x032124.its-s.tudelft.nl] has left #webgui []
02:04 < greghacke> rizen: will is all about board games (he's the president/ceo of that company we've talked about)
02:16 <@preaction> i'm going through and doing a bunch of code cleanup on the Calendar, in an attempt to make it WGPB compliant
02:25 -!- wgGuest14 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has joined #webgui
02:26 <+perlDreamer> when the importer sees that a version of the asset that it is importing exists, it uses $asset->update to put in the new data.
02:26 <+perlDreamer> This overwrites the committed asset with the newly imported data.
02:26 <+perlDreamer> without opening a new version tag
02:27 <+perlDreamer> it turns out that the PHP package that I was using has the main folder set with status pending.
02:27 <+perlDreamer> so now we have a pending asset with no open version tag
02:27 <+perlDreamer> and it's lost
02:27 <+perlDreamer> removed from the Asset Manager and from the package list
02:28 <+perlDreamer> I'm thinking the way to fix it is to detect if the version that is in the database is committed or not.
02:28 <+perlDreamer> if it's committed, then a new version tag needs to be opened up 
02:29 <+perlDreamer> but then we'd end up with two versions with the same revisionDate, since that's pulled from the asset package data, too and I think that screws up the system.
02:30 <+perlDreamer> any thoughts?
02:32  * perlDreamer hears echoes of snapcounts crickets
02:32 < greghacke> *chirp chirp*
02:36 <@preaction> perlDreamer: the new revisionDate should not be pulled from the package (imho), since the user will think they revised it when the uuploaded the package
02:36 <@preaction> the new revisionDate should be the current date/time
02:37 <@preaction> that what i would expect, when i put on my user-hat
02:37 <+perlDreamer> me, too
02:38 <@preaction> plus, what if i modify it after i've uploaded the package? then i upload the package again. what happenes?
02:38 <@preaction> something bad, i expect
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02:38 <+perlDreamer> That's a good question, since the revisionDate is earlier than the max date you may be okay.
02:39 <+perlDreamer> The lead version, locally modified, probably still rules.
02:39 <@preaction> but does it do what i expect?
02:39 <+perlDreamer> definitely not
02:39 <+perlDreamer> I keep waiting for rizen to weigh in with something pithy :)
02:44 <@preaction> would fixing it break anything that anyone's been relying on? i mean, people don't use the package API for anything do they? (would they?)
02:45 <+perlDreamer> technically, this isn't an API change since the names of subroutines or args didn't change
02:45 <+perlDreamer> just the behavior of a bug
02:45 <@preaction> if no, i say just do it. at the moment i haven't been suggesting using the package system as much as I could be (as it is infinitely useful, especially soon with the new WCC and the upcoming "Design a Style" contest... have I said too much?)
02:46 <@rizen> sorry back now
02:46 <@rizen> what do you need pd
02:46 <@preaction> well, like I couldn't fix certain parts of timezone handling, because it was expected to not handle timezones correctly, and people were using the broken stuff
02:47 <@rizen> ah
02:47 <@rizen> i'm reading
02:48 <@rizen> so if i read correctly...the problem is that a user may import something into a version tag that has already been closed
02:48 <@rizen> and then cannot commit it
02:48 <@rizen> is that correct?
02:49 <+perlDreamer> yup
02:51 <+perlDreamer> not only can't commit, but removed from Asset Manager and from package list
02:51 <@rizen> version tags are not copied with a package 
02:51 <@rizen> therefore a new version tag should be created when a package is imported
02:51 <@rizen> however, the asset MUST retain the revisionDate
02:51 <@rizen> of the original
02:52 <+perlDreamer> so what happens if I import the same package twice?
02:52 <@rizen> 2 version tags
02:52 <+perlDreamer> can two versions with the same revisionDate exist?
02:52 <@rizen> no
02:52 <@rizen> the package system performs an update
02:52 <+perlDreamer> that's what keeping the revisionDate will do
02:52 <@rizen> instead of an addRevision
02:52 <@preaction> why must the asset retain the revisionDate?
02:53 <@rizen> because in the future you'll be able to sync entire trees from one server to another
02:53 <@rizen> and if the revision dates are screwed then we can't mirror
02:53 <@rizen> also
02:53 <@rizen> at present, i may export package a
02:53 <@rizen> and then someone imports it
02:53 <@rizen> later i create a new package export of a ('let's call it a.2')
02:54 <@rizen> and i want it to import with the new revision date
02:54 <@rizen> so that it's in order with the old revision date
02:54 <@rizen> the trick comes in
02:54 <@rizen> when a user on the importing site
02:54 <@rizen> updates an asset from package a
02:54 <@rizen> their revision happened on june 26th 2007
02:55 <@rizen> a.2 was exported on april 1, 2007
02:55 <@rizen> but wasn't imported until july 1, 2007
02:55 <@rizen> the a.2 revision of that asset
02:55 <@rizen> should be behind the edit that the user made itself
02:55 <@rizen> because the change occured after the change occurred in the package
02:56 <@rizen> in addition
02:56 <@rizen> it is possible to import package a into site b
02:56 <@rizen> then create package a.b
02:56 <@rizen> and then import a.b into site a
02:56 <@rizen> again, you want to retain the appropriate revisionDates
02:56 <@rizen> as soon as you stray from that
02:57 <@rizen> all sorts of sync errors will start happening
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02:57 <@rizen> because you've got no way of knowing which revision is which
02:57 <@rizen> this gets especially annoying if you do something like:
02:57 <@rizen> take package a from site a
02:57 <@rizen> import into site b
02:57 <@rizen> edit an asset in site b that's in package a
02:58 <@rizen> site a also edits that package
02:58 <@rizen> or rather an asset in it
02:58 <@rizen> and then you export a.b from site b
02:58 <@rizen> and import a.b into site a
02:58 <@rizen> and now you've got a few messes
02:58 <@rizen> the first is that you don't know which revisions have precidence
02:58 <@rizen> the second is that you have multiple revisions of the same asset that have absolutely no change in them
02:59 <@rizen> because the only difference between them is that you didn't keep track of the revisionDate
02:59 <@rizen> i'm sort of rambling here...i've got the head cloud and this is a confusing topic
02:59 <+perlDreamer> so how do we fix the bug?
03:00 <@rizen> i worked this all out in my head, and on a white board, and in some flow chart software when i was coherent
03:00 <@rizen> so trust me that it's important
03:00 <+perlDreamer> I believe you
03:00 <+perlDreamer> is the right thing to do to set the status to anything other than pending?
03:00 <@rizen> no
03:00 <@rizen> the import should create a new version tag for a package
03:01 <@rizen> when you import it
03:01 <+perlDreamer> via addRevision...
03:01 <@rizen> if it works that way...or if it doesn't, then create one manually
03:01 <@rizen> i can't think straight right now to tell you how to fix this
03:02 <@preaction> i should complain to alltel that their site only allows internet explorer to do fun stuff (like an an SMS gateway to an e-mail address feature)
03:02 <+perlDreamer> okay
03:02 <@rizen> all i can tell you is that if you're having a version tag problem
03:02 <@rizen> then create a version tag
03:02 <+perlDreamer> I think that will fix it but create a second bug where you can create versions of an asset with multiple version tags
03:02 <@rizen> we definitely don't want to lose assets to the nether-region
03:02 <@rizen> use some logic and figure it out
03:02 <@rizen> or if you can't, leave it for me
03:03 <+perlDreamer> got it
03:03 <@rizen> second bug, how?
03:03 <@rizen> each asset can have multiple version tags
03:03 <@rizen> every revision gets a new tag potentially
03:03 <@rizen> there's no reason that is a problem
03:03 <+perlDreamer> right, I meant to say duplicate revisionDates
03:04 <@rizen> that's not possible
03:04 <@rizen> the assetData table will crap on you
03:04 <@rizen> if yout try to duplicate a revision date
03:04 <@rizen> for an asset
03:04 <@rizen> it's a composite key
03:04 <@rizen> if you have two revisions of the asset on the same date, then they are the same revision
03:04 <@rizen> it should be doing an update
03:04 <@rizen> rather than addRevision
03:05 <@rizen> even in my cloudy state i remember writing the code to do update() vs addRevision()
03:05 <@rizen> it checks to see if the revisionDate already exists
03:05 <@rizen> and if it does
03:05 <@rizen> it does an update
03:05 <+perlDreamer> yes, but what happens if, in the package, an asset has the status "pending"?
03:05 <@rizen> otherwise it does an addRevision()
03:05 <@rizen> and if the asset doesn't exist it all it does an addChild()
03:06 <@rizen> then you create a new version tag
03:06 <@rizen> pending assets aren't supposed to get exported anyway
03:06 <+perlDreamer> this one did
03:06 <@rizen> you're only supposed to be able to export approved ones
03:06 <+perlDreamer> It's the PHP BB template from PB's contribs area
03:06 <@rizen> but in the event that there is a pending one
03:07 <@rizen> then create a new version tag
03:07 <@rizen> and attach that asset to it
03:07 <+perlDreamer> okay
03:07 <@rizen> i didn't say it wasn't possible
03:07 <+perlDreamer> I'll do that.
03:07 <@rizen> i said it shouldn't happen
03:08 <@rizen> gotta go to bed now...cold killing me
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03:14 <@preaction> i think the issue is the fluid nature of packages. imho i should click the "More" under the asset manager, click "Export package", and be given a .wgpkg, which i can then move around to other systems
03:14 <+perlDreamer> maybe
03:14 <+perlDreamer> wait
03:14 <@preaction> marking something as "Available to Export Package" and then having to deal with the revisionDate stuff is kind of confusing
03:15 <+perlDreamer> you'd have that problem anyway
03:15 <+perlDreamer> so even if we fix this, we need to find out why an Asset with weird status was exported
03:15 <@preaction> not if you ignored the state, status, and revisionDate stuff
03:15 <@preaction> filled in your own values on import
03:15 <+perlDreamer> but then you'd lose the replication stuff that JT wants it to become
03:16 <+perlDreamer> I need some caffeine
03:16 <+perlDreamer> brb
03:16 <@preaction> for mirroring parts of the webgui system
03:17 <@preaction> oh, i see. have spectre make a request for a .wgpkg file from the master, and then update the package on the mirror
03:17 <@preaction> and yet not clobber changes if the mirror happened to change something
03:19 <@preaction> would that be better as two separate features? both could use the package system, but a standard "export"/"import" cycle ignores revisionDate
03:19 <@preaction> whereas the "mirror" system does not
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05:24 < patspam> just out of interest, are any of you guys using an IDE for your webgui dev work? I was using Eclipse with the EPIC perl module for a while and am now using Komodo 3.x but neither have been all that satisfying
05:26 < patspam> main features I'm looking for are refactoring, function/method lookup & auto-complete, and POD viewing
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05:31 < PedersenMJ> hey there.
05:32 <@preaction> patspam: only God's Own Editor for me, vim
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05:49 < patspam> ha I'm with you on that, vim is my editor of choice for single files, but I'm really missing proper refactoring support in a Perl IDE (because I'm a test-driven junkie)
06:27 <+perlDreamer> shell scripts make dev so much easier
06:30 <+perlDreamer> preaction: ping
06:30 <@preaction> yo
06:30 <+perlDreamer> Can I get you to double check a patch?
06:30 <@preaction> sure
06:30 <@preaction> can you tell me where the heck the "Support Calendar" went?
06:31 <+perlDreamer> https://svn.webgui.org/svnweb/WebGUI%20SVN/revision/?rev=3656
06:31 <@preaction> ah.. manageAssets search does not allow to search for all assets of a certain type
06:32 <+perlDreamer> suport calendar?
06:32 <+perlDreamer> the patch fixes the bug I talked about earlier.  JT's suggestion worked, but there's no way to update the tagId since it isn't in the main Asset definition.
06:32 <+perlDreamer> So I had to set it manually.
06:33 <+perlDreamer> It's been tested and works okay
06:33 <@preaction> wtf ical doesn't even work?
06:33 <@preaction> i swore i had that working
06:33 <@preaction> anyway. i'll test your revision quick
06:33 <@preaction> the packages bug?
06:33 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
06:35 <@preaction> what should i be looking for?
06:37 <@preaction> should i be able to export a package before i commit it?
06:37 <+perlDreamer> what I've been doing is import, commit, import
06:37 <@preaction> i get a "URL not found" when i click export after changing an asset to Make Package "Yes" but before committing it
06:38 <+perlDreamer> you may have to commit it.  I grabbed some packages from PB's contrib site for testing.
06:38 <+perlDreamer> what you found sounds like another bug.
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06:42 <+perlDreamer> preaction: knowmad's oldest calendar bug is not a bug, it's due to spectre.
06:42 <+perlDreamer> nm
06:42 <@preaction> the one about things not appearing right away?
06:42 <+perlDreamer> yeah
06:42 <+perlDreamer> bug triage is worse than fixing bugs
06:43 <@preaction> i can't seem to export a package... it either gives me 404, or times out for some reason
06:44 <@preaction> the vm is running real slow too
06:50 <+perlDreamer> I'll see if I can export a package.
06:51 <+perlDreamer> I've had no problems.
06:51 <+perlDreamer> I set the site_map to a package
06:51 <+perlDreamer> it shows up in the asset manager as a package.
06:51 <+perlDreamer> I was able to export it, then commit the version tag that made it a package and then reimport it.
06:52 <@preaction> must be my VM then
06:52 <@preaction> it's doing horrible things
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06:54 < PedersenMJ> hello again
06:54 <+perlDreamer> PedersenMJ: did you get any test written today?
06:55 < PedersenMJ> Not a one.
06:56 < PedersenMJ> I wish I had the time to learn the testing. I've even slacked off a bit on my docs in progress. Hopefully getting back to that shortly.
06:57 <+perlDreamer> spare time is hard to come by
06:57 < PedersenMJ> Well, I made my situation a bit worse, as I'm changing platforms. Stopping using Linux on the desktop, and starting OSX.
06:59 <+perlDreamer> heroes time.  Catch you guys tomorrow for some more bug fixing
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06:59 < Radix-wrk> Heroes rocks :)
07:00 < PedersenMJ> I just record it, and watch whenever. Gotta love mythtv :)
07:00 <@preaction> pfft, bittorrents get me all the TV i want
07:01 < Radix-wrk> heh.. I download it ;)
07:01  * preaction is watching Firefly for the third time this week
07:01 <@preaction> Radix++
07:01 < Radix-wrk> Heroes hasn't even started in Australia yet
07:01 < PedersenMJ> See, if we have time enough for one 1 hour show/night, we're going good. So, since we have around 200 hours of recorded tv shows, we're in good shape.
07:02 < Radix-wrk> Only 200 hours? pfft
07:02 <@preaction> i lost track of the DVDs of archives I have :p
07:02 < PedersenMJ> Well, we only record about a dozen shows.
07:02 <@preaction> 60+, 10+ eps per
07:02 < PedersenMJ> And we don't keep them afterward. No point to it, really.
07:02 <@preaction> oh come now
07:02 < Radix-wrk> yeah, usually fit about 11 or 12 episodes a DVD
07:02 <@preaction> old eps of Babylon 5 will always be interesting
07:03 <@preaction> or Futurama or Family Guy or... you get the idea
07:03 < PedersenMJ> And, for B5, we bought the DVD sets.
07:03 < PedersenMJ> In fact, we're re-watching the series right now. Have gotten to S2E5, actually.
07:04 <@preaction> ooh, where it starts getting good
07:04 <@preaction> i made a lengthy post on imdb about one of the eps in season two
07:04 < PedersenMJ> Which one?
07:04 <@preaction> the one where the Centauri emperor comes to b5
07:05 < PedersenMJ> And yeah, this is very much where it starts getting good. I think we're about to see Sheridan learning about Morden.
07:05 < PedersenMJ> Ah, that was an awesome episode. Londo... His is a character of contradictions, if you only look at the surface.
07:05 <@preaction> mmmm... mista morden
07:06 < PedersenMJ> I remember reading somewhere that Peter Jurasik had a surefire way for getting into character, whenever he had a hard time finding Londo. He would sit down, wait for a few minutes, and then jump up and (as Londo) shout out "Ah, Mister Garibaldi!"
07:08 <@preaction> peter jurasik and andreas katsulas completely made that series
07:09 <@preaction> http://imdb.com/title/tt0517624/usercomments <- i lied, it was 212 - Acts of Sacrifice
07:09 < PedersenMJ> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/07/Jan/stateunion.html
07:10 < PedersenMJ> Did you ever read the novels afterwards? I think the series that focus on Londo and G'Kar was the "Legions of Fire" series, and it gave a fantastic sendoff to those two characters.
07:10 <@preaction> i'm wary of fanfiction, after what they did to Star Wars
07:10 < Radix-wrk> what did they do to star wars?
07:11 < PedersenMJ> Those were published novels, not regular fanfic. Think Timothy Zahn's novels.
07:11 <@preaction> yes, the Thrawn trilogy
07:11 <@preaction> the Jedi Academy trilogy (kevin anderson can't write his way out of a paper sack)
07:11 < PedersenMJ> Yeah. I liked that series, and would compare the B5 novels I read very favorably.
07:12 <@preaction> (another reason why i haven't read the new Dune books)
07:12 < PedersenMJ> BTW, that was in reference to Thrawn, not the Jedi Academy. Never read that series.
07:12 <@preaction> the Rogue Squadron books were good, but for the most part, the "extended universe" things for any series is just fanservice, and there are far better SF books out there
07:13 <@preaction> Ray Bradbury, Philip K Dick, Robert Heinlein, Orson Scott Card
07:13 <@preaction> Frederick Pohl, Isaac Asimov
07:13 < PedersenMJ> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/07/Jan/news.html
07:14 < PedersenMJ> You're right, preactionm but there *is* a difference with the B5 novels I read. Namely, that the authors who wrote them wrote from JMS's outlines on what happened to the characters after the series.
07:15 < PedersenMJ> The only story I haven't been able to find yet is what happened to Lanier.
07:15 <@preaction> eh, it's just a personal preference
07:15 <@preaction> lennier, he didn't die as part of the rangers?
07:16 < Radix-wrk> I've been reading James P Hogan's sf lately.. cool stuff - most of his stuff is hard sci fi
07:16 <@preaction> his story was probably going to be done as part of the "Legend of the Rangers" series that never took off
07:16 < PedersenMJ> No, he didn't. He left the Rangers after trying to kill Sheridan. He disappeared, and we never found out what happened to him.
07:17 <@preaction> crap, it's been more than 8 months since last i saw b5, i'm definately up for a re-view
07:17 < Radix-wrk> I never got into B5 - keep meaning to grab the series sometime and watch it from the start
07:18 < PedersenMJ> Do. There's a lot of stuff that builds over that entire story arc. Most episodes can be watched independently, but there's one helluva story to be seen.
07:18 <@preaction> indeed, one of the greatest ever told on TV
07:19 < PedersenMJ> BTW: Something from season 1. At the beginning of one of the shows, when they are doing the exterior shots of ships coming and going at the station, you can hear the voice of somebody in C&C: Earth liner White Star you are cleared for docking.
07:19 <@preaction> lol
07:19 < Radix-wrk> yeah - might trickle down a season or two when I have some spare quota
07:19 <@preaction> wait, quota?
07:19 < PedersenMJ> I forget which episode, but I do remember it as right at the very very beginning. Within the first minute.
07:20 < Radix-wrk> preaction, unfortunately yes, it's next to impossible to get an "unlimited downloads" account in australia
07:20 <@preaction> has austrailia signed international copyright law?
07:21 < Radix-wrk> I'm on a nice adsl2+ link (up to 24MB/s), but can only download 20GB a month international
07:21 <@preaction> that's complete BS
07:21 <@preaction> but i suppose, those pipes cost money
07:21 < Radix-wrk> we've gone one worse.. we've got a trade agreement with the US which includes the DCMA apparently
07:21 <@preaction> 20 gig would get you 5 dvds, 2.5 seasons
07:21 < PedersenMJ> Absolutely amazing story. Very very much worth the time to view. And, as preaction already noted: Londo and G'Kar (Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas) are absolutely amazing. Their interaction... Suffice to say that their substory might actually be better than the main story.
07:22 <@preaction> the main story was marred by network difficulties
07:22 <@preaction> sinclair v sheridan, the 4th-season windup
07:22 < PedersenMJ> Yeah, season 5 wasn't as good as it should have been. However, season 4... That one was beyond kickass.
07:23 < PedersenMJ> Mainly because they didn't think S5 would even happen, so crammed the meat of S5 into the end of S4.
07:23 <@preaction> exactly
07:23 <@preaction> the network they were on actually told them S5 would not happen, until TNT picked them up
07:23 < PedersenMJ> Best character, though, IMO: Marcus. If there were any one character in that series I could be, it would be him.
07:24 < Radix-wrk> Looks like all five seasons incl. 5 movies and pilot is about 44GB
07:24  * Radix-wrk whistles innocently.
07:24 < PedersenMJ> Sounds about right. The movies are *not* required, though. Skip them. Get the pilot, though, it sets up some small pieces which will be helpful in the rest of the story.
07:25 < PedersenMJ> *especially* skip "In The Beginning".
07:25 <@preaction> i hated marcus... and the ham-handed love story between him and ivanova
07:25 <@preaction> ivanova + winters, now there was something that could've been something
07:26 < PedersenMJ> ITB: That movie gives away much much much too much of the series. Skip it. If you absolutely must see it, wait until the *end* of the series, then watch it.
07:26 <@preaction> yes, but B5: The Gathering is necessary
07:26 < Radix-wrk> watch that first?
07:26 < PedersenMJ> Might have been ham-handed, but it was part of Marcus, and part of why I enjoyed him.
07:27 < PedersenMJ> Yes, B5: The Gathering is the name of the pilot. You'd be surprised at how important the pilot can be.
07:27 < Radix-wrk> so pilot then skip the other five movies and watch season 1
07:27 <@preaction> yep
07:27 < PedersenMJ> yep
07:28 <@preaction> the middle two movies are worth watching, a call to arms was okay, and legend of the rangers stunk to high heaven
07:28 < PedersenMJ> I liked Legend for one reason: I always enjoyed when G'Kar got to come in.
07:28 <@preaction> In The Beginning i liked though, if only for the character of old Londo
07:29 <@preaction> The Well of Souls or whatever, another one that was unnecessary
07:29 < PedersenMJ> As a movie, ITB was okay. The timing of it, though... The story that's told actually takes place in the midst of a few episodes.
07:30 <@preaction> true, but it's sheridan's story, not sinclairs
07:30 < PedersenMJ> Oh god, the soul hunters movie. Now *that* was a real "who cares" movie.
07:30 <@preaction> and it had martin sheen for god's sake... poor decision on his part
07:30 < Radix-wrk> When were the movies created in relation to the series?
07:31 < PedersenMJ> I'm still kind of torn on whether or not the switch to Sheridan was a good thing. Some portions of the story seemed to benefit, I think. And I don't see how they could have worked had it remained Sinclair.
07:31 <@preaction> tveps.com/Babylon5
07:31 <@preaction> i think
07:31 <@preaction> it was supposed to be a progression, a lot of the eps don't work with sheridan's background as a bit of a hot-head
07:32 <@preaction> admittedly, i did like Bruce Boxleitner a lot better, but i liked Tron
07:32 < PedersenMJ> True. He had to learn to calm down, and quickly. Especially during s2, as he was working his way into the character, there were some noticeable gaps in the performance.
07:32 < PedersenMJ> gaps is the wrong word. Inconsistencies is better,
07:40 < PedersenMJ> Now, g'night. Definitely time to hit the sack here.
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12:05 < patspam> is the recommended way to handle dates to store them in the db as MySQL date strings and then work with them as epoch values in perl code?
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16:05 < ckotil> is there any search/replace functionality in wG? One of my sites is getting a new name + logo's.
16:05 < ckotil> every instance of abilene will become Internet2 Network
16:07  * snapcount yawns
16:07 -!- bopbop [n=kristi@68-114-216-78.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
16:07 < ckotil> snapcount: thx for the macro.
16:07 <@snapcount> must find mountain dew and crunch berries
16:08 <@snapcount> I gave you a macro?
16:08 <@snapcount> what did it do?
16:08 < ckotil> heh last night around 8pm est
16:08 < ckotil> returned menutitle when given an assetID
16:08 <@snapcount> oh... that's like 1000 developer years... I forgot
16:08 <@snapcount> =D
16:08 <@snapcount> you're welcome
16:09  * snapcount hunts from crunch berries  ( I shall return )
16:20 -!- Meatbop [n=chatzill@24-180-168-135.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has joined #webgui
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16:24 <@snapcount> man that hit the spot
16:24 <@Meatbop> which spot is that?
16:32 -!- diakopter [i=diakopte@pdpc/supporter/active/diakopter] has joined #webgui
16:33 <@snapcount> you know
16:33 <@snapcount> that one spot
16:34 <@Meatbop> Oh right. That one.
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16:47 <@khenn> mornin
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16:50 -!- rizen is now known as BugSlasherMcGirk
16:51 <@snapcount> if you want to make sure a string does not have a dot in it, should this work:  if (! $url =~ /\./)
16:51 <@snapcount> because it doesn't
16:53 <@khenn> no
16:53 <@khenn> that won't work
16:53 <@khenn> you have not on $url
16:53 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> why not?
16:53 <@khenn> !$url will always be true
16:53 <@snapcount> I just found it
16:53 <@khenn> put parens around it
16:53 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ah
16:53 <@snapcount> It should be !~
16:53 <@khenn> or use !~
16:54 <@snapcount> ty sirs
16:54 <@khenn> !($url =~ /\./) would work
16:54 <@khenn> also
16:54 <@khenn> make sure you use the match case:
16:54 <@khenn> $url =~ m//
16:54 <@khenn> part of WBP
16:54 <@khenn> oh
16:54 <@khenn> I haven't gotten there yet, but I think you are supposed to use braces
16:54 <@khenn> $url =~ m{ }
16:56 <@preaction> use braces only when using // is confusing (such as when you have a lot of escaping to do
16:57 <@khenn> hmm
16:58 <@khenn> that seems more confusing
16:58 <@khenn> sometimes use // and other times use {}
16:59 <@preaction> / doesn't need "m"
17:00 <@snapcount> man, a search and replace sure is funny looking with {} delimiting
17:00 <@snapcount> but it is easier to see whats going on
17:00 <@khenn> again, I haven't gotten to that part yet
17:00 <@snapcount> the book does say to use {} always though
17:01 <@snapcount> ty for pointing that out... lets see if this stupid thing will pass the smoketest yet
17:04 <@snapcount> sweet...
17:09 <@preaction> so, how's this working with the support? i'll do a run-through on the boards right now
17:09 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> we'll all be working on it
17:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> every hour or so we'll go take a look at the boards
17:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> and we can round robin login and phone requests
17:11 < bopbop> I posted a bug this am, but it's not appearing. When you reply to a reply in a post, it redirects you back to the pb homepage. Not always, just sometimes.
17:12 <@preaction> actually looks like the boards are clear for the moment
17:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> there is a backlog of workflows on plainblack.com right now
17:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that's why your bug isn't showing up yet
17:14 <@preaction> which probably also explains the link sending you to PB homepage
17:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no
17:14 < bopbop> oh, well I'm impatient, so it'll probably post twice
17:14 < diakopter> howdy; what's the ETA for the next WRE release, if you please?  Also, does anyone know if it compiles from source on debian without modification?
17:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> there is no eta
17:14 < diakopter> 0.72 I mean, for the debian question
17:16 < diakopter> or, will (should?) the ubuntu version work on debian etch?
17:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no talk of non bugfixing please
17:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it's bugfix week
17:17 -!- crythia1 [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
17:25 <@khenn> I'm working on fixing the PM bugs just so everyone knows
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17:32 < ckotil> bug: prototyped assets (in this case a page layout) do not retain the page layout template. it changes back to default. 
17:34 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> you're not reporting a bug are you?
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17:41 < ckotil> not im asking if this is a bug or not
17:41 < ckotil> no*
17:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i suppose technically it's a bug, but i'm not sure if there is anything we can do to fix it.
17:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> feel free to add it to the bug list
17:42 <@preaction> i'm going to handle the DoS login stuff right away, be back in a bit
17:44 < ckotil> it seems like someone just forgot to pass a parameter to the prototype when it gets created
17:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> actually it's not that
17:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> oh wait
17:47 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> nevermind
17:47 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that is a bug
17:47 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i thought we were talking about packages
17:47 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> not prototypes
17:47 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> carry on
17:47 < ckotil> k
17:53  * ckotil submits.
17:56 <@snapcount> BugSlasherMcGirk: Is it ok with you if we don't push undefined assets onto the array reference returned by getLineage, and push an error into the log file?
17:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yup
17:57 <@snapcount> ok cool, wanted to make sure there were no unforeseen dire consequences like world destruction, etc
17:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it would be even better if you could find out why it's undefined and fix it
17:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> cuz it never should be
17:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but that error handling code should also be there just in case
17:57 <@snapcount> yeah I know... I don't have anything that's causing that to happen, but when other assets break, it kills entire sites
17:57 <@snapcount> so that's my intent here
17:58 <@snapcount> sweet, ty
17:59 <@preaction> (webgui stability)++
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18:09  * BugSlasherMcGirk scratches head
18:10  * crythias hands you some Head n Shoulders
18:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> thanks...used some this morning
18:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> this scratch is over a puzzler, not itchyness
18:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> heh
18:11 <+crythias> ?
18:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/avatar-profile-field-does-not-update-immediatly-when-you-are-admin#rpKeSrLw2bCpTg9GgtA7Fw
18:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i know what's going wrong
18:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but i don't know how to fix it
18:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i thought i did, but i applied that patch
18:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> and it did nothing
18:13 <+crythias> did you restart apache?
18:13 <+crythias> :)
18:13 <+crythias> hee
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yup
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but i also have reload on
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> so shouldn't need to
18:16 <+crythias> yeah. I'm just bustin' ya chops. I know who ya are.
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yeah, but i forget basic stuff sometimes too
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ok, let me talk this outloud
18:16 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> maybe it will help
18:17 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> the problem is that the storage location id being used by the avatar upload
18:17 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> is using the filename uploaded as the storage location id
18:17 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> rather than the generated one
18:18 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> so when it goes to retrieve the file, it's not there, cuz it's using the filename instead of the storage id
18:18 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ok..nope, that didn't help
18:18 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> back to reading code now
18:26 <@khenn> preaction: why did you leave "can't add/edit tasks" open until 7.3.9 is released?
18:26 <@khenn> If it's fixed, I'm closing it
18:27 <@preaction> as a warning, to let people know. i was mostly just waiting for this
18:27 -!- greghacke [n=greghack@c-24-23-66-147.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
18:27 <@khenn> ok, it's closed now
18:28 -!- greghacke [n=greghack@c-24-23-66-147.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
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18:39 <@khenn> I want to add a new method to Wobject.pm :
18:39 <@khenn> i18n
18:39 <@khenn> which caches the i18n file of the current wobject
18:40 <@khenn> that way, you can get it by: $self->i18n->get();
18:40 <@snapcount> Jamie: are you of the clan Vrbsky?
18:40 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> khenn, what purpose would it serve
18:41 <@khenn> two
18:41 <@khenn> both performance
18:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> explain, cuz i don't see it
18:41 <@khenn> 1)  WebGUI::International::->new() only has to be called once
18:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> also..what does it have to do with bug fixing
18:41 <@khenn> nothing
18:41 <@khenn> really
18:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> then shelve it for another day
18:42 <@khenn> k
18:42 <@khenn> well I wasn't talking about adding it today anyway
18:42 -!- mode/#webgui [+o Jamie] by snapcount
18:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i just want to keep IRC clear for bugfixing the next three days
18:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no additional spam
18:42 <@snapcount> mmm spam
18:43 < greghacke> can i ask for improvements or changes?  I _love_ to hear that wonderful clause...
18:43 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no
18:44 < greghacke> there it is!  _no_
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18:53 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> what's everybody's bug count for today? mine is: 0 resolved, 2 asked questions, 1 not a bug
18:54 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i'm sucking big tim
18:54 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> time
18:54 <+perlDreamer> I fixed one last night
18:54 <+perlDreamer> does that count?
18:54 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> sure, if the two i fixed last night count
18:54 <@Meatbop> Haven't been keeping that close of a count, fixed one, looked into 3 or 4 others, closed a couple
18:55 <+perlDreamer> you're good by me, McGirk
19:03 < greghacke> i've done nothing.  not even find them
19:04 < PedersenMJ> Does reportingt hem count?
19:04 <+perlDreamer> yes, but only by 1/2
19:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> if it's a vaild bug
19:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> if it turns out the be a wild goose chase then you'll be docked 15 bug points
19:06 < PedersenMJ> Well, so far (if you count all the bugs I've found/reported) I might be at 1.5 bug points. Though i think it's only 1.
19:07 <+perlDreamer> BugSlasher, grnoc's prototype bug doesn't seem to be a bug.  When prototypes are added, they inherit style and privileges from the parent.  Can I close it and add some docs?
19:08 <@snapcount> damn it
19:08 <@snapcount> all that work on the export fix and it's not right
19:09 <@snapcount> oh well, at least it's easier to correct now
19:09 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: it must need more tests
19:09 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> pd yes
19:09 <@snapcount> no actually it doesn't
19:10 <@snapcount> the problem isn't with the code, but rather the result
19:10 <@snapcount> the urls are translated the way I wanted
19:10 <@snapcount> but they won't work for a static webserver
19:10 <@snapcount> so, my code should treat that case as an error instead of doing what it does
19:14 <+perlDreamer> Is Kristi online somewhere?  I need some help rewording the prototype docs
19:14 <@snapcount> replace all the words with "maybe"
19:14 < bopbop> yup
19:14 < bopbop> I'm here.
19:14 <@snapcount> oh
19:14 -!- mode/#webgui [+o bopbop] by snapcount
19:15 <@snapcount> didn't know that was you
19:15 <@bopbop> hi
19:15 < gooeybot> hello, bopbop
19:15 <+perlDreamer> Kristi, let me get you a URL
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19:15 <@bopbop> k
19:15 <+perlDreamer> http://www.plainblack.com/bugs?op=viewHelp;hid=content%20prototypes;namespace=Asset
19:15 <@bopbop> looking at it
19:16 <+perlDreamer> Here's how it needs to be changed.
19:16 <+perlDreamer> when you add a content prototype, it picks up permissions and style info from the page where it is added
19:16 <+perlDreamer> overriding the original prototype settings.
19:16 <@bopbop> alright
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19:24 <@snapcount> Meatbop: do you have the link to the demo you dup'd the LastModified problem on?
19:25  * perlDreamer coughs
19:25 <+perlDreamer> cache
19:25  * perlDreamer hacks and coughs
19:25 <+perlDreamer> page level cache
19:26 <@khenn> I'll probably be working on the same bug all day.  I'm puting YUI controls into the project management system and fixing the page pop up timer
19:27 <@bopbop> perlDreamer: I added the text here: http://rafb.net/p/JsoYiC10.html
19:32 <+perlDreamer> thanks, bopbop!
19:32 <@bopbop> surely, my pleasrue
19:32 <@bopbop> pleasure
19:34 <@snapcount> oh boy
19:35 < greghacke> bopbop: do have have any recommendations for a tech writer in working on some of the docs?
19:36 <@snapcount> I don't know how we can fix your bug Meatbop... I'll have to put my thinking cap on for this one
19:36  * snapcount ponders into the distance
19:36 <+perlDreamer> while the sounds of french horns highlight the dual sunset on Tattoine
19:37 <@snapcount> the problem is that the macro has no way to "know" which asset it was called from, so it uses the current asset.
19:37 <@snapcount> which explains the behavior you described
19:38 <@bopbop> greg, I'm not sure what you're asking for...example?
19:38 <@snapcount> maybe we could add an option to the macro that lets you pass it a url of the asset it's in.  That way if you always want the last modified time of the asset, and not the container, you could do so
19:39 <@snapcount> BugSlasherMcGirk: what says thee
19:40 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> are you looking for the last modified date of any given asset rendered to the page?
19:41 <@snapcount> what they want is if the macro is used in an asset, the assets last modified
19:41 <@snapcount> not the container
19:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that's not the point of the last modified asset
19:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> macro
19:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i mean
19:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> and if they want that then they can already do it a different way
19:41 <@snapcount> but maybe it should get the latest modified date of anything on the page, is that what you're saying
19:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no
19:42 <@snapcount> or the latest
19:42 <@snapcount> sorry typo
19:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no
19:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i'm not sure how you could interpret that out of what i said, but whatever....
19:42 <@snapcount> so the most recently updated thing under the current asset... ok wrong on that too
19:42 < greghacke> bopbop: I have an assistant who is a 15 year tech writer.  she's working with a client of mine and is writing tech docs for wG materials.  as she wants to be able to provide these back to the community, i'm trying to get her some direction
19:42 <@Meatbop> the documentation for the macro leans in the direction of the person who wrote the bug report, it says that it should update the modified date based on the wobjects on the page
19:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> if they want the last modified date of any given asset
19:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> then they can just do:
19:42 <@bopbop> ahhh
19:43 <+perlDreamer> Meatbop: we can fix the docs
19:43 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ^D(%z, <tmpl_var revisionDate>);
19:44 <@snapcount> ok, but LastModified should work just the way it does 
19:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yes
19:44 <@snapcount> ok cool
19:44 <@snapcount> I'll post the solution and close... thank you sir
19:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> and even if it should work a different way
19:44 <@bopbop> greg: you can have her post them to the wiki at http://wiki.webgui.org
19:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that would be an RFE
19:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> not a bug
19:45 <@snapcount> ok... whole expected -vs- intended behavior thing
19:46 < greghacke> bopbop: will do.
19:49 <+perlDreamer> I updated the docs for the LastModified macro and added an example to the Date macro
19:52 <@Meatbop> cool
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19:57 <@bopbop> umm, every time I click on the Turn admin on link on the demo site it logs me out...bug?
19:58 < greghacke> bopbop: any areas you want covered sooner than later for wiki?  i'm doing EMS now...
19:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> refresh your browser bopbop
19:58 <@bopbop> alright, never mind. I don't know WTF was going on, but now I'm in.
19:58 <@Meatbop> refresh the page bop
19:58 <@bopbop> Greg: not in particular
19:58 < greghacke> anyone else want an area written up first?  Tammy's bored...
19:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> greg: the docs you guys write are for public consumption
19:58 <@bopbop> I feel so refreshed
19:59 < greghacke> of course.
19:59 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> so ask the public what they need
20:09 <@snapcount> BugSlasherMcGirk: I need to know how a situation should be handled
20:10 <@snapcount> if you go to the webgui url of an image asset and it's state is trash, you can still view it
20:11 <@snapcount> other assets display the not found page, should they return some kind of 404 error?
20:11 <@snapcount> they being image assets
20:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yup
20:11 <@snapcount> ok thanks
20:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> $session->privilege->noAccess
20:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> actually
20:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i take that back
20:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> 404 is better
20:23 <@preaction> i just had an ugly thought: what if these people who keep making the vocal whining "I'm moving to <insert PHP-based CMS here>" are those people who get paid to infiltrate forums for advertising purposes?
20:23 <@preaction> i mean, its rather paranoid (they could just be idiots), but still
20:24 < PedersenMJ> Then they're screwing up in their job.
20:24 <@Meatbop> just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't trying to get you
20:24 <@preaction> amen to that
20:26 < ckotil> heh
20:26 < PedersenMJ> See, I'm one of those you should be paranoid about. After all, I've shown up out of nowhere, am trying to make contributions, etc. Now, if I do that, and become well known on the forums (not likely, I hate using forums), and *then* announce that I'm moving to <insert PHP-based CMS here>, that's more damaging than what they do.
20:27 < PedersenMJ> Well, more damaging to wg, and more beneficial to <other>
20:27 <@preaction> offering information is bad though, just disappear and have people inquire as to your status is better
20:27 <@preaction> anything free is taken lightly, something given has little value
20:27 < PedersenMJ> Also true.
20:28 < greghacke> eh, those "inside" could be more damaging but at the same time the crew does listen and does work.  the disappearing act can be more damaging.  
20:28 < greghacke> the price point is something i find myself fighting customers on.  they just don't understand it
20:29 < PedersenMJ> Tell them you're selling them crack. And the first hit is always free :)
20:29 < greghacke> yeah i could.  some i have to deal with the magic-box concept.
20:30 < greghacke> they want to know everything, even without a basis of knowledge.
20:30 < PedersenMJ> Ah, I fit more into the "need to know more" category.
20:30 < PedersenMJ> Complete with the lack of knowledge :)
20:31 < greghacke> yeah, but i'm talking executive level with no it knowledge wanting to know how everything works.
20:31 <@preaction> good gravy. i have Perl experience and I still don't understand how everything works :p
20:31 < PedersenMJ> Eww, that's frustrating. I never have found ways to explain to them what they want to know in terms they will understand.
20:32 < greghacke> i had an executive i worked for who heard the phrase "magic box" and just couldn't accept it.  had to walk him through ever step
20:32 < greghacke> i made rizen do it :-)
20:34 < PedersenMJ> Ooof. Those are the worst. Worked for one of them once. Worst part was that he *thought* he understood everything technical better than anybody around him.
20:35 <@preaction> best way is to ask them to explain it in their own words, then correct those words, ad nauseum...
20:36 < PedersenMJ> Didn't work with this guy.
20:36 < greghacke> ad nauseum is a good word.  they are good people, just difficult to deal with.
20:36 < PedersenMJ> Others, maybe, but not this guy.
20:37 < PedersenMJ> The one I'm thinking of, in particular, would say something, be corrected, and then repeat his original statement. He was also known to tell others that he knew better than them (including arguing with an insurance company about insurance law).
20:41 <@preaction> big man / pig man / ha ha charade you are
21:04 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_food
21:05 <+crythias> I don't understand.
21:05 <+crythias> please explain to me why I am here.
21:05  * crythias has decided! 
21:05 <+crythias> I'm done with this. I'm going with netnuke.
21:05 <+perlDreamer> you are here to service us
21:05 <+perlDreamer> your technology will service
21:05 <+perlDreamer> us
21:06 <+crythias> resistance is purile.
21:06 <+crythias> um.
21:07 <+crythias> puerile
21:11 <+perlDreamer> ooh!
21:11 <+perlDreamer> BugSlasherMcGirk
21:11 <+perlDreamer> read this: 㰀昀漀渀ç�€â€€æ˜€æ„€æŒ€æ”€ã´€âˆ€å˜€æ”€çˆ€æ�€æ„€æ¸€æ„€â°€â€€ä„€çˆ€æ¤€æ„€æ°€â°€â€€ä €æ”€æ°€ç˜€æ”€ç�€æ¤€æŒ€æ„€â°€â€€çŒ€æ„€æ¸€çŒ€â´€çŒ€æ”€çˆ€æ¤€æ˜€âˆ€â€€çŒ€æ¤€ç¨€æ”€ã´€âˆ€â´€ãˆ€âˆ€â€€æŒ€æ¼€æ°€æ¼€çˆ€ã´€âˆ€æˆ€æ°€æ„€æŒ€æ¬€âˆ€ã¸€ã°€æ˜€æ¼€æ¸€ç�€â€€æ˜€æ„€æŒ€æ”€ã´€âˆ€ä´€æ¼€æ¸€æ„€æŒ€æ¼€â°€â€€äŒ€æ¼€ç”€çˆ€æ¤€æ”€çˆ€â€€ä¸€æ”€çœ€â°€â€€ä´€æ¼€æ¸€æ¼€çŒ€ç€€æ„€æŒ€æ”€âˆ€â€€æŒ€æ¼€æ°€æ¼€çˆ€ã´€âˆ€æˆ€æ°€æ„€æŒ€æ¬€âˆ€â€€çŒ€æ¤€ç¨€æ”€ã´€âˆ€ãˆ€âˆ€ã¸€äˆ€ç”€æœ€â€€ä˜€æ¤
21:11 <+perlDreamer> double crap!
21:11 <+perlDreamer> Bug Fix: Long-standing bug where variables set in a loop weren't
21:11 <+perlDreamer>       available inside inner loops under global_vars if the variable
21:11 <+perlDreamer>       wasn't actually used in the outer loop.  (Thanks to Richard Fein
21:11 <+perlDreamer>       for help debugging the fix.) 
21:11 <+perlDreamer> ~                                        
21:11 <+perlDreamer> The newest version of Html::Template fixes the template var nested loop with global variables issue
21:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> sweet
21:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> change the required version number of HTML::Template in testEnvironment.pl then
21:12 < gooeybot> BugSlasherMcGirk: that doesn't look right
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21:12 -!- gooeybot [n=gooeybot@static-72-1-4-143.ntd.net] has joined #webgui
21:21 <+perlDreamer> I'm afk for a while
21:36 -!- wgGuest14 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
21:36 -!- wgGuest54 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has joined #webgui
21:39 <@khenn> approx how many user accounts are on pb.com?
21:39 -!- wgGuest54 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
21:39 <@khenn> I guess I can look it up
21:39 -!- wgGuest67 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has joined #webgui
21:41 -!- pjesi_ [n=pjesi@client-82-26-25-241.winn.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #webgui
21:41 < PedersenMJ> I'm going guess that the number is greater than 10.
21:41 <@khenn> yup
21:43 -!- ElSeppo [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has joined #webgui
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21:49 <@khenn> I'm waiting for 10,000 users to be created on my local box to test PM fixes.  Moving on to fixing setRow API method
21:49 <@khenn> question for BugSMG:
21:49 <@khenn> currently, the primary key is being replaced
21:49 <@khenn> if id is "new" or id is passed in
21:49 <@khenn> what that means is that the row is deleted if it exists and a new one created
21:50 <@khenn> I'm thinking that is not the desired functionality
21:50 <@khenn> and that it should bomb if someone passes in a 'new' id that already exists
21:50 -!- snap_food is now known as snapcount
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21:52 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> what is your suggested work around
21:54 <@khenn> my thinking is that it should throw an error if the id exists already
21:54 <@khenn> obviously we don't catch errors yet
21:55 -!- wgGuest67 [i=WebGUIUs@cp43027-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
21:55 <@khenn> but if the id exist ...
21:55 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it will already go fatal
21:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> which is what it's supposed to do for the time being until we have exception handling
21:56 <@khenn> what will
21:56 < gooeybot> will is all about board games (he's the president/ceo of that company we've talked about)
21:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> teh database
21:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> if you get a database error
21:56 <@khenn> not with a replace
21:56 <@khenn> oh
21:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> like duplicate key
21:56 < greghacke> heheh...
21:56 <@khenn> ok, so just try the insert then
21:56 <@khenn> and let the system handle the fatal
21:56 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> what i'm saying is you shouldn't be screwing around in there
21:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it already works as intended
21:57 <@khenn> no, it's broken
21:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> then explain again, cuz i'm not seing it
21:57 <@khenn> ok
21:57 <@khenn> as is
21:57 <@khenn> setData only works for tables that ONLY have the primary key set to not null
21:57 <@khenn> because the first thing it tries to do on insert
21:57 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> setRow()?
21:57 <@khenn> yes
21:57 <@khenn> setRow
21:57 <@khenn> sorry
21:58 <@khenn> the first thing it tries to do is replace only the primary key into the databse
21:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> primary key MUST be set to not null
21:58 <@khenn> yes
21:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it can't be a key unless that's true
21:58 <@khenn> but if anything else is not null
21:58 <@khenn> setRow does not work
21:58 <@khenn> is what I'm saying
21:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i'm saying you can't have a primary key that is not set to not null (forget webgui, mysql won't allow it)
21:58 <@khenn> eh
21:59 <@khenn> I know that
21:59 <@khenn> forget the primary key
21:59 <@khenn> if you make any other column not null
21:59 <@khenn> setData will not perform the insert
21:59 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> you mean if you make any other column not null without a default
21:59 <@khenn> no, not null period
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> wrong
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> if its null
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> and it has a default
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> mysql will fill it in
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> for you
22:00 <@khenn> only if you pass it NULL
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> which is always the case
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> in setRow()
22:00 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> for the insert
22:00 <@khenn> no it's not
22:00 <@khenn> replace into $table ($keyColumn) values (?)
22:00 <@khenn> nothing else is passed in
22:01 <@khenn> ie, it fails
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> right, and nothing is NULL
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it's not empty
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it's null
22:01 <@khenn> alright
22:01 <@khenn> I'll test it again
22:01 <@khenn> but I'm 99.9% sure you are wrong
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it's ok if i'm wrong
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but it's your job to prove that
22:01 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> because that particular bit of code has been in webgui for 3+ years and working
22:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> so if it's broken, then you're doing something differently that it doesn't expect
22:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed
22:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> just that it works now, so i'm very leery of you changing it
22:04 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: is there an internationalized error message for File not found anywhere that you know of?
22:04 <@snapcount> something to the tune of an apache 404 page or similar?
22:05 <@preaction> perlDreamer: when was that version of HTML::Template released?
22:06 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: does it bother you when people say
22:06 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: a lot =D
22:06 <@preaction> snapcount: it should, if he's configured his IRC client accordingly
22:06 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> he's afk
22:06 <@snapcount> hehe
22:06 <@preaction> snapcount: as a rule, i tend to direct my speaking, i hang out in a lot of channels with 200-1000+ users
22:06 <@khenn> alright
22:07 <@khenn> that's not the issue then
22:07 <@snapcount> yeah... looks like we'll need to do that more if we keep growing like this
22:07 <@khenn> it doesn't even matter if it's a default ...
22:07 <@khenn> er
22:07 <@khenn> wait
22:07 <@khenn> my test was wrong
22:09 <@khenn> alright, well that's just plain wrong
22:09 <@khenn> apparently there is no such thing as "not null" in mysql
22:10 <@khenn> it must not be working for some other reason
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22:10 <@khenn> ok, I'm wrong
22:11 <@khenn> I had it backward though
22:11 <@khenn> you have to set it equal to NULL in order for it bomb
22:11 <@khenn> but if I have a table:
22:12 <@khenn> create table test_1 (id integer not null primary key, low integer not null, high integer not null default 0);
22:12 <@khenn> I can do this:
22:12 <@khenn> insert into test_1 (id) values (1);
22:12 <@khenn> or
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22:12 <@khenn> replace into test_1 (id) values (1)
22:13 <@khenn> regardless of whether or not a default is put on the column
22:13 <@khenn> it will error if I do this:
22:13 <@khenn> insert into test_1 (id,low) values (1,NULL);
22:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> right
22:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it's supposed to bomb if you do that
22:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> because the field is not null
22:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> in the case of the first example
22:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> the field is "empty"
22:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> which mysql treats differently than NULL
22:18 <@snapcount> preaction: I bet you would be someone who knows the answer to this
22:19 <@snapcount> if you pass a url to an img src tag that returns a 404 http status, shouldn't that create a broken image link dealy on the rendered page
22:19 <@preaction> i'll take that bet!
22:19 <@preaction> yes
22:19 <@snapcount> wth
22:19 <@snapcount> ok ty
22:19 <@preaction> are you really returning a 404 status?
22:19 <@preaction> use wget to make sure
22:20 <@preaction> also, firefox (i assume) just shows the text in the alt tag, instead of the ominous box with the red X
22:21 <@preaction> i'm gonna make some food, bbl
22:24 < PedersenMJ> Hey, question for everybody here: An e-commerce site has a shopping cart. Click "Add to Cart", and that links takes you to an add-to-cart page, which giv es the browser a 302 redirect. Is this a normal behavior, or cause for concern?
22:25 < PedersenMJ> Oh, and the 302 redirect points the browser at the "view your cart" page.
22:26 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> take your question to the boards please
22:26 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> for the next several days only bug fix talk in here
22:34 < PedersenMJ> No problem. With that sort of response, definitely no problem staying away. Later.
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22:35 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> was i that mean?
22:36 < greghacke> hrm.  I see a pleace, a redirect and an answer
22:36 < greghacke> please*
22:36 <@preaction> yeah. i've been meaner to that guy
22:37 < greghacke> got me.  i mean, i deal with a lot and never balk.
22:37 < greghacke> figure, you aren't shooting at me so...
22:38 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i wonder if he was actually maxscience masquerading as PedersenMJ. I don't usually see PedersenMJ on here until later at night
22:39 < greghacke> you mean iPg? :-)
22:39 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yeah
22:39 <@preaction> you mean paulie?
22:40 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> paulie?
22:40 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> is that his new name?
22:40 <@preaction> he used it on that WebGUI-Bashing on <something> thread
22:40 <@snapcount> apparently FF doesn't display the broken image link but it shows up in Safari so I guess it's up to snuff
22:40 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> are you sure it was him?
22:40 <@preaction> the login history confirms it
22:40 < greghacke> for a guy who has slammed wG so hard, it's a wonder he still is even involved.
22:40 <@preaction> he's an idiot
22:41 <@snapcount> this 404 fix also fixes files that are in the trash or other strange places BugSlasherMcGirk 
22:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> methinks i should ban his account once again
22:41 <@snapcount> you should ban everyone
22:41 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i suppose though, he'll just keep creating accounts
22:42 <@snapcount> we could just ban every ip originating from his country and tell them to track him down as he is the reason they can't use wG
22:42 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but i don't think that was PedersenMJ...he's never been a sour grapes kind of guy from what i've seen
22:43 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> one nite he even offered to pay me for a little bit of advice i gave him
22:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> FYI to everyone, i've finally fixed the upgrade 7.1.3 stop
22:44 <@snapcount> cool
22:44 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> so you can upgrade directly from 6.8.10 to 7.3.x  now
22:44 <+crythias> yee haw
22:46 <+crythias> now if we can upgrade 5.x to 7.3 :) :) :)
22:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> hehe
22:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> never going to happen
22:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> not in one stop
22:46 <+crythias> ok.. 6.2? hee
22:46 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> unless someone else goes back and rewrites all the upgrade scripts
22:53 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> we're officially down to one page of bugs!!!!!
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> I think it was pedersen
22:53 <+MrHairgrease> he cam from his own address
22:54 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> how can you tell>?
22:55 <+MrHairgrease> (05:48:09 PM) PedersenMJ [n=Pedersen@mail.icelus.biz] entered the room.
22:55 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> my iRC client doesn't show that sort of stuff unless i click on the person's name while they are in the room
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> gaim does
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> that's how i could tell ipg == ms
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> well who cares anyway
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> i shouldn't keep you from your bugfixing endevour
22:56 <+MrHairgrease> carry on =)
22:57 <@preaction> either that, or three people from the same IP with the same hostmask just hate WebGUI so much, and also have a hard-on for ripping on that DBell character
22:57 <@preaction> with poor grammar and even worse manners
22:57 < greghacke> so does trillian - I have to click the name in the list but I can see people after logout - like i get [20:56] *** BugSlasherMcGirk is n=rizen@71-86-227-90.static.mdsn.wi.charter.com (JT Smith)
22:57 < greghacke> well, does DBell deserve it? ;)
22:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i think DBell should get it whether he deserves it or not
22:58 <@preaction> i dunno, i've always felt he's a cool, down-to-earth kind of guy
22:58 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but only from PB staff, not from some dick in the forums
22:58 <@preaction> you know, someone you can really rap it down to
22:58 < greghacke> down to earth... maybe they want him 6 feet under...
22:58 <@preaction> ah, i see, wouldn't want me^H^Hhim to get numb to it
23:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> mrhairgrease: i thought you weren't going to be around today? are you going to help us squish some bugs afterall?
23:03 <@khenn> alright, I found out what the issue is with setRow and I'm not sure if this is how it should work or not:
23:04 <@khenn> currently, you have to pass in primary key == "new" or and id
23:04 <@khenn> if either of those is true, it does the replace which is successful
23:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> correct
23:04 <@khenn> then goes on to update the row
23:04 <@khenn> fine
23:04 <@khenn> if primary key is NULL, it fails
23:04 <@khenn> unless id is set
23:04 <@khenn> fine
23:05 <@khenn> however, if id is set
23:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> are you pissy?
23:05 <@khenn> nope
23:05 <@khenn> fine = working ok
23:05 <@khenn> just easier to type
23:05 <@khenn> here's the only issue I can see with this
23:05 <@khenn> if you do an update
23:05 <@khenn> and pass in code
23:05 <@khenn> replace is going to delete the row first and insert a new row
23:06 <@khenn> now, if you don't pass in *all* the data
23:06 <+MrHairgrease> bsmg: I'm trying to finish this paper that was due a year ago
23:06 <@khenn> you may actually lose something from your update
23:06 <+MrHairgrease> i wish i was crushing bugs
23:06 <@khenn> not sure if this is an issue or not
23:06 <@khenn> but if id is passed in, it's not a traditional update
23:06 <@khenn> it's a delete/insert
23:06 <@khenn> regardless of whether or not the row exists
23:07 <@khenn> my guess is that this will affect like 1% of all people
23:07 <@khenn> maybe less
23:08 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i must have missed something, what would you have to pass in to lose data?
23:08 <@khenn> ok
23:09 <@khenn> if you pass in an id as the 4th param
23:09 <@khenn> and the row exists
23:09 <@khenn> and you don't pass in all of the rows as previously updated
23:09 <@khenn> it is going to delete the row first
23:09 <@khenn> and then add the new row of data
23:09 <@khenn> with everything you passed in this time
23:10 <@khenn> a good example would be the users table
23:10 <@khenn> dateCreated
23:10 <@khenn> if you were to only set $props->{dateCreated} in the event that it's a new records
23:10 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that's fine though
23:10 <@khenn> and then called setData somewhere else
23:10 <@khenn> dateCreated would be set to NULL
23:10 <@khenn> unless you passed it in
23:10 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: did you get your i18n?
23:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> khenn...in order for it to do what you're saying
23:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> you also have to pass "new" as your field data in the first param
23:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> sorry, 3rd param
23:11 <@khenn> nope
23:11 <@khenn> if ($data->{$keyColumn} eq "new" || $id) {
23:11 <@khenn> either or
23:11 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ok, then make it do that
23:12 <+perlDreamer> how about a test?
23:12 <@khenn> I'll make it check both conditions
23:12 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: I made my very own i18n
23:12 <@snapcount> nice and boring 404 page
23:12 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> regardless, this is not really going to affect anyone except someone who wrote bad code
23:12 <@khenn> if($data->{$keyColumn} eq "new" || ($data->{$keyColumn} eq "new
23:12  * perlDreamer needs an IRC client with status notification
23:12 <@khenn>  && $id)
23:12 <@khenn> ...
23:13 <@khenn> not necessarily bad code
23:13 <@khenn> but in most cases you are right
23:13 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> you're the only one it has affected in more than 3 years, so i'm going to say "bad code" cuz it's you
23:14 <@khenn> I just gave you an example which wouldn't be bad code
23:14 <@khenn> dateCreated on anything
23:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> did you write it? yup you did.
23:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> has it affected anyone else? nope, it hasn't
23:14 <@khenn> it hasn't affected me either
23:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ie: you write bad code
23:14 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> then why are you bringing it up
23:14 <@khenn> I write bad code?
23:14 <@khenn> I'm saying it's a corner case I found
23:15 <@khenn> in figuring out how I was calling setRow wrong
23:15 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i'm over here fucking with you and you're taking me seriously, so i'm just going to end this convo now...carry on
23:16 <@khenn> actually
23:16 <@khenn> I'm not going to fix this
23:16 <@khenn> because your dumbass has used setRow the way you wrote it
23:16 <@khenn> and I'll break other shit if I change it
23:17 <@khenn> =)
23:17 <@khenn> I'm just going to document the possible issue
23:19 < Hinrik> perlDreamer: xchat
23:20 <+perlDreamer> thanks for the recommendation, Hinrik.
23:20 < Hinrik> you mean away status, right? xchat shows away users grey in the nick list
23:20 <+perlDreamer> yeah, anything is better than changing my nickname in order to show I'm away.
23:21 < Hinrik> oh, yeah, xchat can announce it when you go away, too
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23:23 <@preaction> does the SyndicatedContent wobject always cache by design? or should it be heeding the "disableCache" config value?
23:24 < ckotil> BugSlasherMcGirk: the version tag never got deleted. its still there in fact
23:24 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> it currently always caches because some as#*$&*W(@ broke it by creating their own code rather than using setByHttp in the cache system
23:24 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> ckotil: this is not a support forum, as i've already told you...go post it out in the forums
23:24 < ckotil> k
23:25 < ckotil> ...it was penderson you told.
23:27 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no, i told you in the seperate little side chat that you started with me
23:28 < ckotil> oh.
23:28 < ckotil> i didnt recieve that
23:28 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> sorry then
23:28 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but let's just make this official
23:28 <+perlDreamer> unregistered nick
23:28 < ckotil> np. its official. im back to the boards
23:28 < ckotil> ya
23:28 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> EVERYONE: IRC is not a place for you to post support questions to plain black staff
23:29 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> EVERYONE: today through thursday, please only use IRC for bug fixing discussions
23:29 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> there, now everyone is aware
23:31 <@preaction> penderson is a funny name
23:33 < ckotil> pen15derson
23:35 <@bopbop> I can't believe you actually just wrote pen15...
23:35 <@preaction> http://www.penisland.com
23:35 <@bopbop> oh my
23:35 <@preaction> crap
23:35 <@preaction> http://www.penisland.net/ <- HA
23:36 <@bopbop> :P
23:36 < ckotil> yeah.. first thing that came to mind.
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23:42 <+perlDreamer> second thing that come to mind was how to clear the screen before my boss comes over :(
23:42 <@preaction> try /clear
23:43 <+perlDreamer> preaction writes and eraseth
23:43 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
23:43 <@preaction> or do the bash.org classic and keep writing one-word sentences until it scrolls up off-screen
23:43 <@preaction> also, pen island is not a bad site
23:44 <@preaction> also, this syndicated content wobject is going to be the death of me
23:45 <+perlDreamer> it needs to be rewritten to use the wG cache API
23:45 <@preaction> it need to DIAF
23:45 <+perlDreamer> what DIAF
23:45 <@preaction> gooeybot diaf is Die in a Fire
23:45 < gooeybot> OK, preaction.
23:46 <@preaction> if a program is a conversation with a programmer, this reads like a cerebral palsy victim...
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--- Day changed Wed Jan 31 2007
00:01 <+perlDreamer> I need some SQL help for a bug
00:01 <@khenn> shoot
00:01 <+perlDreamer> select sum(Post.rating) from Post left join asset on Post.assetId=asset.assetId where Post.threadId=".$self->session->db->quote($self->getId)." and Post.rating>0
00:01 <+perlDreamer> why does this need to join the asset table?
00:02 <@preaction> doens't look like it does
00:02 <@khenn> nope
00:02 <@khenn> doesn't look like it does
00:02 <+perlDreamer> and shouldn't it sum all post ratings, not just the positive ones
00:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yes it does
00:02 <+perlDreamer> Lead me, thuktun
00:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> in this case it needs to join because it's summing all the ratings in the thread
00:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> not in the whole cs
00:02 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> as far ast the Post.rating>0 part
00:03 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that should go away
00:03 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> that's left over from the 1..5 post rating days
00:03 <+perlDreamer> does the threadId= part screen just the posts in this thread?
00:03 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yup
00:03 <+perlDreamer> then does the join still need to be there?
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> oh sorry
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> i was reading it wrong
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but yes
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> in some form it needs to be there
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> because it's making it only count the thread ocne
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> once
00:04 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> no matter how many revisions of each post there are
00:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> but it's not doing it right
00:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> the join needs to be fixed
00:05 <+perlDreamer> does it need the max(revisionDate) clause?
00:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> yup
00:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> wow that query is really broken
00:05 <@BugSlasherMcGirk> =)
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00:15 <+perlDreamer> I'm pretty sure that this is Knowmad's rate bug, but you'd think that by eliminating all the negative numbers that the thread rating would go up.
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00:54 <@khenn> preaction:  are you working on calendar bugs?
00:54 <@preaction> khenn: indeed
00:55 <@preaction> almost got feeds fixed, and searches are fixed (i think i closed that one though)
00:55 <+perlDreamer> rock on, preaction
00:55 <@preaction> tonight around 9:00p perlDreamer is going to assist me in getting docs written to close that one
00:56 <@preaction> or whenever he wants
00:56 <@preaction> i've also been leaving better comments and TODOs
00:59 <@khenn> can we close this?
00:59 <@khenn> https://www.plainblack.com/bugs/tracker/duplicate-messages-in-collaboration-system#j9S4pxOff3pzBGDQGakEDQ
00:59 <@preaction> yes
01:01 <@preaction> Police Squad is absolutely hilarious
01:02 <+perlDreamer> preaction: You've been superceded by Mrs. perlDreamer
01:02 <+perlDreamer> she wants to go out on a date
01:02 <@preaction> what does she got that i don't... oh
01:02 <@preaction> a "date"
01:02 <+perlDreamer> manana noche is mejor para me
01:02 <@preaction> i see
01:02 <+perlDreamer> mi
01:02 <@preaction> sounds good, i could use the sleep anyway
01:02 <@preaction> another time perhaps, big boy?
01:03 <+perlDreamer> Wednesday night
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01:15  * BugSlasherMcGirk cold kicking brain in nutz...signing off
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02:04 <+perlDreamer> would it be just stupid to use getLineage to get the lists of posts in a thread instead of crafting another huge query to build the sum?
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02:06 <+perlDreamer> oy
02:06 <+perlDreamer> I drove him to it
02:07 <+MrHairgrease> and me too =)
02:07 <+MrHairgrease> gotta go
02:07 <+MrHairgrease> happy bughunting
02:07 <+perlDreamer> thanks, man
02:07 <+perlDreamer> hm
02:08 <+perlDreamer> two devs with one question
02:08 <+perlDreamer> that has to be some kind of record
02:08 <+MrHairgrease> which two dev would that be?
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02:10 <@preaction> oh! i see what he did there!
02:13 <+perlDreamer> heh, that makes two
02:13 <+perlDreamer> who's next?
02:15 <+perlDreamer> you know, the post sum would be a lot easier if the threadId was in the Post_rating table.
02:16 <+perlDreamer> preaction: what do you think of that?
02:16 <@preaction> needless duplication?
02:16 <+perlDreamer> saves a 3 table join
02:17 <+perlDreamer> with embedded sub clause for revisionDate
02:17 <+perlDreamer> make that a two table join
02:17 <+perlDreamer> eh, I'll quit whining and start writing the query
02:20 <+perlDreamer> what paste
02:20 <+perlDreamer> what paste?
02:20 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot what pastebin?
02:20 < gooeybot> i heard pastebin was magic 8ball says "Try again"
02:20 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot pastebin?
02:20 < gooeybot> pastebin is, like, http://erxz.com/pb
02:20 <+perlDreamer> gooeybot pastebin?
02:20 < gooeybot> pastebin is http://pastebin.ca
02:22 <+perlDreamer> preaction: take a gander at this, please: http://pastebin.ca/333601
02:24 <@preaction> a little ugly, sure.
02:25 <+perlDreamer> next to javascript, CSS, and IPC, SQL is my weakest point :)
02:25 <+perlDreamer> any tips?
02:25 <@preaction> not that i can see, though i'm not sure if you want joins or left joins
02:25 <+perlDreamer> isn't the default join left?
02:26 <@preaction> no
02:26 <@preaction> i don't know
02:26 <@preaction> joins are a mystery to me
02:27 <+perlDreamer> knowmad's bug is actually an unbug
02:27 <+perlDreamer> what he's seeing is the bug fixing itself periodically
02:27 <+perlDreamer> the real bug is the double counting of post ratings by the thread
02:27 <@preaction> ooooh
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02:36 <+perlDreamer> getting closer
02:37 <+perlDreamer> this looks a lot better with placeholders
02:50 <+perlDreamer> rizen, I'm neck deep in the rate bug.  I should have it finished tomorrow afternoon.
02:52 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"]
03:05 <@preaction> rofl Bill Gates on The Daily Show
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03:34 < cap10morgan> Is there a way to access DataForm entries via the API?
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05:26 <@khenn> evenin
05:26 <@khenn> anything interesting happening?
05:28 <@khenn> I'll take that as a no
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05:35 < PedersenMJ> Good evening.
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05:58 <@snap_learns> greetings and salutations
05:58 -!- snap_learns is now known as snapcount
06:08 < PedersenMJ> How's it going?
06:36 < Radix-wrk> Hmm.. you guys played with Firebug 1.0 yet?
06:53 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit []
06:53 < PedersenMJ> I haven't.
06:54 < Radix-wrk> It's pretty cool for exploring html, testing load times, inspecting dom, etc
06:54 < Radix-wrk> http://getfirebug.com/
06:56 < PedersenMJ> That might have just replaced the web developer's toolbar for me.
06:58 -!- crythias [n=Gerald@c-68-51-234-189.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
06:59 < Radix-wrk> http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/01/26/video-hewitt-firebug/
07:04 < PedersenMJ> No doubt about it: It *has* replaced web developer's toolbar for me.
07:07 < Radix-wrk> Glad to help :)
07:09 < PedersenMJ> Wow... Absolutely amazing tool. This might make it possible for me to finally be willing to switch to a web based development model. Been refusing to do so before.
07:10 < PedersenMJ> Maybe. Definitely makes it possible to see the stuff I've been having issues with, at the least.
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09:49 -!- patspam [i=patspam@203-214-35-18.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #webgui
09:49 < patspam> is anyone about?
09:49 < patspam> got a bug question..
09:55 < patspam> getting some weird behaviour when using a function pointer to WebGUI::Form::Text, seems to want to be referred to as WebGUI::Form::text (lowercase). Errors I'm seeing only apply to WebGUI::Form::Text, not any of the other modules in WebGUI::Form such as WebGUI::Form::Textarea
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15:51 <+MrHairgrease> me?
15:51 <+MrHairgrease> nevr mind that sry
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16:43 <+MrHairgrease> hi language guru's
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> would this be a correct sentence?
16:43 <+MrHairgrease> The conductive properties of ITO stem from two processes.
16:44 <+MrHairgrease> ie. is the use of stem correct?
16:44 < greghacke> Dobrye dyehn, gospodeen Hairgrease.
16:45 <+MrHairgrease> i'm pretty sure that's not the answer i was looking for =)
16:46 < greghacke> I believe it would be correct.  Asking an associate now...
16:46 < greghacke> he says yes
16:46 <+MrHairgrease> whoohoo
16:46 < greghacke> (an english degree and a sikh)
16:46  * MrHairgrease gets that omnipotent feeling again
16:46 <@bopbop> yes, stem is ok
16:47 <+MrHairgrease> cool
16:47 <+MrHairgrease> thanks
16:47 < greghacke> Hello, bopbop
16:47 <@bopbop> hi
16:47 <+MrHairgrease> now you can continue your bugfixing again =)
16:47 <+MrHairgrease> and hello of course
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17:09 <@rizen> howdy all
17:09 <@Meatbop> Yo.
17:09 <@rizen> man this cold is kicking my ass
17:09 <@rizen> methinks i need to go seek professional medical attention
17:09 <@Meatbop> have you tried those cough drops I mentioned?
17:10 <@rizen> yup
17:10 <@Meatbop> dang
17:10 < ckotil> House MD would be pissed off. citing the fact that its only a cold and you will get better.
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17:10 < greghacke> and if you stuck around, he'd offer you $50 to leave...
17:10 <@rizen> i've had it since around christmas
17:10 < greghacke> yeah, time for the doc.
17:10 <@rizen> so i don't think it's going away on its own
17:10 <@Meatbop> oh man, go tot he doctor
17:11  * rizen back in a bit
17:11 < ckotil> greghacke: right!
17:12 < ckotil> yeah.
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17:28 < wgGuest53> jjj
17:29 <@preaction> kk?
17:29 < wgGuest53> Anyone had experience upgrading 6.2.11 to 6.3 ?
17:29 <@preaction> a few times, sure
17:29 < wgGuest53> What do you do with the USS assets ?  Delete them ?
17:30 <@preaction> USS become CS assets if I'm not mistaken
17:31 < wgGuest53> They seem to cause problems  in the upgrade script.  
17:32 < wgGuest53> upgrade_6.2.11-6.3.0.pl FATAL: Couldn't execute prepared statement: select * from Collaboration where wobjectId='29'  Root cause: Unknown column 'wobjectId' in 'where clause'
17:33 < wgGuest53> Due to namespace being Collaboration, the script can't insert a wobjectId into the Collaboration table as there's no field.
17:33 <@preaction> what's the upgrade path again? 6.2.11-6.8.10-7.3.8
17:33 <@preaction> that looks like a bug, it shouldn't be asking Collaboration for a "wobjectId"
17:34 < wgGuest53> Something like that.  Seems to fall over on the 6.3 bit.
17:35 < wgGuest53> Think I was trying to move to 6.5, would jumping straight to 6.8.10 get round this bug ?
17:35 <@preaction> actually, looks like 6.6.5 is a waypoint in between
17:35 <@preaction> says crythias's wiki
17:35 <@preaction> http://gwybsd.homeip.net/fomfiles/cache/52.html
17:36 <@preaction> the 7.1.3-7.2.0 upgrade waypoint doesn't exist anymore
17:37 <@preaction> so it's 6.2.11-6.6.5-6.8.10-7.3.8
17:37 < wgGuest53> Ok thanks I'll give that a go.  
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17:43 <@preaction> imma take a look at the forums, then get some calendar bugs fixed
17:44 <@khenn> have you closed everything in the calendar you fixed?
17:44 <@preaction> yes and no, i think feeds are working again, but part of that "bug report" is "No docs" and that's being fixed tonight
17:44 <@preaction> i think
17:52 <@preaction> snapcount_: whatever happened to this: http://www.plainblack.com/plain_black_support/how-to-access-nightly-site-statistics ?
17:55 < snapcount_> omg I want to take the EMS out back and bury it
17:56 < greghacke> which part this time?
17:56 < greghacke> (being intimately familiar with EMS...)
17:58 < snapcount_> the code just needs to be refactored
17:58 < snapcount_> when we had the drastic changes from original delivery to what it is now
17:58 < snapcount_> it all happened so fast that the code is in a bit of disarray
17:58 < snapcount_> for example
17:58 < greghacke> absolutely.  imho, it needs to be generalized a bit more usable
17:58 < snapcount_> I think I just found two entire methods that aren't even used anymore
17:59 < snapcount_> well, we never really understood everything it had to be able to do until we were done
17:59 < snapcount_> honestly, I don't think GAMA did either
17:59 < snapcount_> but now that we know, and it's been used, I think we can really improve it
18:00 < snapcount_> but it's daunting because it's a very large and complex application
18:00 <@preaction> do it a piece at a time
18:00 < snapcount_> kind of like walking on eggshells every time you do anything in here =)
18:00 < snapcount_> indeed
18:00 < greghacke> it was understood but the requirements gathered were tossed away before you all got a hold of it.
18:00 <@preaction> write tests as you go?
18:00 < greghacke> i still have the 90 page requirements doc.
18:01 < snapcount_> man, I wish I would have seen that
18:01 < snapcount_> my requirements to which I wrote the spec were about 2 pages and just a bunch of bullet points
18:01 < snapcount_> water under the bridge I guess
18:01 < greghacke> it was huge.  i spent 8 months gathering them.  i'll pass you some stuff
18:02 < snapcount_> the good news is everyone at Plain Black learned a lot from the experience
18:02 < greghacke> oh yeah.  don't think that will ever happen again ;)
18:03 < snapcount_> the project came at a time when Frank was working out the kinks in a development methodology
18:03 < snapcount_> so we didn't use it
18:03 < snapcount_> if we had done it the way it's done now
18:03 < snapcount_> it would have been much much better
18:04 < greghacke> well, in the end it worked.  better than any tool out there.  i drafted SQL reports and tools for them that took care of much of their additional needs.
18:04 < greghacke> it ran a 12000+ person show with like 60000 event tickets sold
18:04 < greghacke> i can get you exacts but that is close
18:10 <@khenn> er
18:10 <@khenn> let's not talk about what happened on that project
18:11 < greghacke> some times i like working for myself...
18:11 <@khenn> doug, can you restart spectre on plainblack.com?
18:11 <@preaction> k
18:11 <@khenn> it appears that posts are not showing up on collab systems again
18:11 < greghacke> i would still state that it worked for the customer.
18:12 <@khenn> yep
18:12 <@khenn> I agree Greg
18:12 <@preaction> done
18:13 <@khenn> thanks
18:29 < snapcount_> is JT out sick?
18:29 < snapcount_> nm
18:29 < snapcount_> just saw email
18:30 < snapcount_> I've been in EMS land... laddy daddee da
18:40 < snapcount_> what is the built-in function to set the first letter of each word in a string to lowercase
18:40 < snapcount_> lcfirst?
18:40 <@preaction> perlbot -f lcfirst
18:40 < perlbot> Documentation for 'lcfirst' can be found here: http://xrl.us/uj5x
18:40 < snapcount_> sweet
18:41 < snapcount_> that works for all built-ins?
18:41 <@preaction> "all built-ins?"
18:41 < snapcount_> all perl built in functions
18:41 <@preaction> oh, yes
18:41 < snapcount_> perlbot -f eval
18:41 < perlbot> Documentation for 'eval' can be found here: http://xrl.us/uj5y
18:41 < snapcount_> ok I get it
18:42 <@preaction> just like
18:42 <@preaction> perlbot cpan CGI
18:42 < perlbot> Documentation for 'CGI' can be found here: http://xrl.us/uj5z
18:42 <@preaction> perlbot docs for CGI::Debug
18:42 < perlbot> Documentation for 'CGI::Debug' can be found here: http://xrl.us/uj52
18:42 < snapcount_> very cool
18:42 < snapcount_> that almost makes up for all the other features he's lacking :P
18:42 <@preaction> yes, we love perlbot
18:42 <@preaction> you mean the crap like "shun" or whatever?
18:43 <@preaction> perlbot google for snapcount
18:43 < perlbot> oblio: google for snapcount
18:43 <@preaction> rofl, oblio has been dead for a long time
18:43 <@preaction> perlbot -f jump
18:43 < perlbot> No documentation for perl function 'jump' found
18:44 <@preaction> perlbot has other good information too
18:44 <@preaction> perlbot port 80
18:44 < perlbot> port 80: http - World Wide Web HTTP
18:44 <@preaction> perlbot rfc2445
18:44 <@preaction> perlbot rfc 2445
18:44 <@preaction> humph
18:44 <@preaction> perlbot botspeak
18:45 < snapcount_> perlDreamer will be very happy with this bug fix
18:45 <@preaction> perlbot .nl
18:45 < perlbot> .nl is Netherlands
18:45 < snapcount_> it returns an i18n error message to tell the user about a null field error
18:45 <@preaction> perlbot 419
18:45 < perlbot> ESTEEMED SIR OR MADAM/DO NOT BE SURPRISED AS I HAVE YOUR NAME BY A NETWORK OF IRC (INTERNET)/I AM ABDUL MARJEEN BUDAHMI SUPERVISING MGR OF BAGDAD IRAQ BUS STATION/RECENT ROUTINE INSPECTION OF LOCKERS REVEALED A PARCEL, WHICH, WHEN OPENED PROVED TO CONTAIN (20 000 US) ANSWERS TO PERL COMPUTER LANGAUGE QUESTIONS.  I SEEK YOUR ASSISTANCE IN MOVING THESE OUT OF THE COUNTRY...
18:45 < snapcount_> but it also uses the i18n labels for the field names inside that i18n'd message
18:46 <@preaction> nice
18:46 <@preaction> perlbot -f chimp
18:46 < perlbot> No documentation for perl function 'chimp' found
19:11 < snapcount_> hello?
19:11 < gooeybot> Hi, snapcount_
19:11 < snapcount_> ah
19:11 -!- snapcount_ is now known as snapcount
19:11 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
19:11 <@khenn> is anyone working on the commerce issues atm?
19:12 <@snapcount> just ones related to the EMS
19:12 <@snapcount> if there are any
19:12 <@snapcount> haven't got that far yet
19:12 <@khenn> ok
19:12 <@khenn> I'm going to work on the commerce items
19:13 <@snapcount> I have the iTransact test info if you need it
19:13 <@snapcount> took me like 15 mins to dig it up lol
19:13 <@khenn> I got it, thanks
19:13 <@snapcount> k
19:14 <@snapcount> Meatbop: I need the blessing of the Graphical Wizard
19:14 <@snapcount> I need to change a core template for a bug fix
19:14 <@snapcount> change is highlighted
19:14 < gooeybot> snapcount: that doesn't look right
19:14 <@snapcount> http://pastebin.com/872258
19:14 <@snapcount> please let me know if I need to change anything about the html, etc
19:15 <@Meatbop> ah just an error message?
19:15 <@snapcount> yep
19:16 <@Meatbop> seems straightorward
19:16 <@Meatbop> and even straightforward
19:16 <@Meatbop> be sure to put in tbody tags
19:17 <@snapcount> you're starting to go over my head, never heard of that tag before
19:17 <@snapcount> where does it go?
19:17 <@Meatbop> just put <tbody> immediately after the starting table tag, and </tbody> immediate preceding the closing </table> tag
19:17 <@snapcount> oh ok, so not part of my change
19:17 < greghacke> dang, faster typest than i
19:17 <@snapcount> but a fix to the template in general
19:18 <@Meatbop> correct, as long as you're working on it
19:19 -!- snapcount_ [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
19:19 < snapcount_> internet connection sucks today
19:19 < snapcount_> if you said anything I missed it
19:19 <@Meatbop> been having similar issues
19:20 <@Meatbop> I just said that as long as you're working on that template anyways, yes, please put in those tags
19:20 < snapcount_> sure no problem
19:21 -!- snapcount [n=royjohns@10.207.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
19:21 -!- snapcount_ is now known as snapcount
19:21 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by ChanServ
19:24 <@preaction> does purge() need to be committed?
19:29 <@snapcount> no
19:29 <@snapcount> tree operations are not versioned
19:29 <@preaction> k
19:29 <@snapcount> only undelete we have is trash =)
19:45 <@rizen> so i don't have a cold.
19:45 <@rizen> i'm dying
19:45 <@rizen> it's cacner
19:45 <@rizen> cancer
19:45 < greghacke> ?
19:45 <@bopbop> of your mucus glands?
19:46 < ckotil> they found a cure last week.
19:46 <@rizen> just kidding...just an infection
19:46 <@rizen> gave me some pills
19:46 <@preaction> aw nuts
19:46 <@preaction> i mean good!
19:46 <@rizen> should be better in 10 days they say
19:55 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat048.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
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20:01 < ckotil> http://www.studentprintz.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=c7794f20-dfb1-4494-892d-b529895da103 cancer cure claim
20:04 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: I need you to walk me through some documentation stuff
20:04 <@snapcount> I think I've got it all down, but I don't want to miss anything plus I know you've made some changes
20:05 <@snapcount> to how it all links together, etc
20:05 <@snapcount> I have some new template variables for the EMS that are the result of a bug fix
20:06 <@snapcount> crap... lunchtime
20:06 <@snapcount> bbiab
20:06 -!- snapcount is now known as snap_eats
20:07 < greghacke> snap: as you work on these template variables, keep me in.  I'm still maintaining many of the custom templates for gama
20:09 <+perlDreamer> greghacke: it's all in the docs
20:09 <+perlDreamer> snapcount, I'm back
20:10 < greghacke> pD: you mean these new ones?
20:10 <+perlDreamer> yeah
20:10 <+perlDreamer> when he's done, they'll be in the online docs
20:10 <+perlDreamer> for the past several months, I've been auditing the docs for template variables
20:10 <+perlDreamer> things are a lot better than they were
20:11 <+perlDreamer> there's probably still room for improvement, but they're a lot better
20:11 < greghacke> understand
20:14 <+perlDreamer> rizen: I some questions about karma and rating posts
20:15 <@rizen> k
20:15 <@rizen> shoot
20:15 <+perlDreamer> when a user rates a post, it looks like they get dinged for karma twice
20:15 <+perlDreamer> once in the post, then again in the thread
20:16 <+perlDreamer> is that a bug?
20:16 <+perlDreamer> (for reference, see sub rate in both Asset/Post.pm and Asset/Post/Thread.pm)
20:19 <@rizen> yup
20:20 <@rizen> it does look that way
20:20 <@rizen> shouldn't happen though
20:20 <@rizen> they should only get dinged once
20:29 <+perlDreamer> wait a sec
20:29 <+perlDreamer> there's a Post ding and there's a CS ding
20:30 <+perlDreamer> you do get dinged twice, but it's one and another, not just the same on twice
20:30 <+perlDreamer> but if you rate a thread (top post), you don't get dinged for rating a post, just the CS
20:35 <+perlDreamer> never mind me.
20:35 <+perlDreamer> I'll just sit here in the corner and keep reading source code.
20:36 <@preaction> i never do
20:36 <+perlDreamer> Oh, you should.  I highly recommend reading source code
20:36 <+perlDreamer> :)
20:36 <@preaction> where's the run in that?
20:36 <@preaction> i'm a highly physically active person
20:36 <@preaction> i need to be writing source code
20:41 <+perlDreamer> that will not only make you highly active, but well employed
20:43 <@preaction> but i never read source code
20:43 <@preaction> i refuse. it's passive and boring
20:47 <+perlDreamer> yeah, that's why I'm in the corner
20:48 <@preaction> that's interesting: the recurring events get completely fucked up all the time...
20:48 <+perlDreamer> I didn't do that
20:48 <+perlDreamer> I just mislabeled Frank's templates
20:48 <@preaction> i know, this is probably something i did
20:48 <@preaction> though there have been more hands in the cookie jar than i realize
20:48 -!- snap_eats is now known as snapcount
20:49 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: you requested assistanct from document control?
20:49 <@preaction> oh christ... it's that toMysql changing the time zones crap thingy
20:49 <@preaction> damnit frank
20:49 <@preaction> wait what?
20:50 <@snapcount> I have to add some template vars
20:50 <@snapcount> to the docs
20:50 <@snapcount> last time I did this, you wound up doing a commit after me
20:50 <@snapcount> b/c I missed something
20:50 <@khenn> what is dammit frank for?
20:50 <+perlDreamer> the i18n was missing
20:50 <@snapcount> what?
20:51 <@snapcount> you mean all of it?
20:51 <+perlDreamer> no, just the defs for the variables added to the Help.
20:51 <@snapcount> ok... I'm going to give it a shot on my own first
20:51 -!- pjesi_ [n=pjesi@client-86-27-130-79.winn.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #webgui
20:51 <@snapcount> will you check me when I'm done?
20:51 <+perlDreamer> sure
20:52 <+perlDreamer> all I did was: prove Help/ i18n/
20:52 <@snapcount> I want to write this down b/c frankly it confuses me
20:52 <@snapcount> the way you have to name everything so it all links up
20:52 <+perlDreamer> maybe I should revamp my doc talk for the 2007 WUC?
20:52 <@snapcount> I don't know maybe I'm just whining
20:52 <@snapcount> but it just seems harder than it should be
20:53 <@snapcount> no knock on you
20:53 <@snapcount> I know you're working hard
20:53 <+perlDreamer> no knock received.  I didn't write this part of the Help code :)
20:53 <@snapcount> I don't know... I'll do it and maybe I can give examples of what sucks and how to make it better on another day
20:53 <@snapcount> but for now need to close this bug and it requires docs =/
20:54 <+perlDreamer> I've got your back covered.
20:54 <@snapcount> ty sir
20:55 <@preaction> khenn: you had me add an explicit timezone change in the toMysql method of WebGUI::DateTime, of course this means I can now go back and use the proper new interface by perlDreamer
20:56 <@preaction> but that's not causing this bug, it's something else
20:56 <+perlDreamer> I still think the recur'er is calculating from 0 instead of 1
21:00 <@rizen> based upon what i'm seeing from this bugfix week
21:00 <@rizen> we won't be branching for 7.4 dev anytime soon
21:00 <+perlDreamer> no
21:01 <+perlDreamer> but we're shaking out the tarps and nailing them down again
21:01 <@rizen> yeah..it's progress for sure
21:01 <@rizen> it's just that we've got a long long way to go
21:01 <+perlDreamer> preaction: I'd still recommend writing a test for the recurring event generator
21:01 <+perlDreamer> It's the only long term way to guarantee that it doesn't get broken in the future
21:02 <+perlDreamer> rizen: We need to do an Asset by Asset, feature by feature code audit
21:02 <@preaction> all the easy ones got done yesterday, i'm waist-deep in some nasty calendar bugs
21:02 <+perlDreamer> especially the larger Assets (like Asset*.pm, CS, Matrix, etc.)
21:03 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: what is the source hash key for in the Help File
21:03 <@snapcount> the method that sets the template vars?
21:03 <@snapcount> or the one that causes the template to be rendered
21:04 <+perlDreamer> the method that sets, and that particular key is not vital
21:04 <+perlDreamer> It's just a note of where to look for future reference.
21:04 <@rizen> perlDreamer: that would be nice, but we're not even close to that either
21:05 <@rizen> until we have the bugs on the bug list nailed down...nothing like that is going to happen
21:09 < pjesi_> when is the next release?
21:09 < pjesi_> friday?
21:09 <@rizen> wednesday
21:09 <@rizen> next
21:09 < pjesi_> ok
21:17 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: how do you handle variables that are only valid if another template variable is set?
21:17 <@snapcount> is there a way to group them under a boolean variable?
21:17 <+perlDreamer> no
21:18 <+perlDreamer> it has to be handled in the variable description
21:18 <+perlDreamer> after all, they can be used whether they are defined or not
21:18 <@snapcount> so each one that is set under the condition, you note that the condition must be true
21:18 <+perlDreamer> yes
21:18 <@snapcount> k
21:19 <+perlDreamer> "if blah is true, then this variable will contain...."
21:20 -!- Jamie [n=chatzill@207-118-206-236.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
21:23 <@preaction> developers: we need to change the WebGUI::DateTime interface, but we're having an argument over naming the methods
21:23 <@preaction> the method is used to convert a WebGUI::DateTime object to the timezone and format used for the MySQL database
21:24 <@preaction> we have: "convertDateForDatabase" or "convertToDatabaseDate" (Date being one of "Date", "Time", or "Datetime"
21:24 <@snapcount> perlDreamer: if a template variable generates a form element, should the entry go under fields, or varialbes?
21:24 <@preaction> questions? comments?
21:25 <@preaction> the current method is named "toDatabase" (with toDatabaseTime and toDatabaseDate for single elements of the Date/Time), which is not as descriptive as it should be
21:25 < greghacke> preference is second.
21:25 <@preaction> it is a preference question, for maintainability's sake
21:26 < greghacke> tagging the tail end as for type is more explicit along with the defined Convert
21:26 <@snapcount> I don't like any of them
21:26 <@snapcount> I have a suggestion though
21:26 <@snapcount> convertToDatabaseFormat
21:26 <@preaction> more suggestions welcome, of course
21:26 <@snapcount> because the object tells you it's datetime related
21:26 < greghacke> well, he didnt say i could pick neither :-)
21:26 <@preaction> can't be just "Format", there are three different formats, Date, Time, and Date + Time
21:26 <@snapcount> oh I see
21:26 <@snapcount> didn't know that
21:27 <@preaction> the above-mentioned methods would convert just the "Date" portion, YYYY-MM-DD
21:27 <@snapcount> is there a different method for each?
21:27 <@preaction> yes
21:27 <@snapcount> ok
21:27 <@preaction> has to be, for each of the three MySQL date/time fields, and WebGUI::Form date/time controls
21:28 <@snapcount> toDatabaseDate
21:28 <@snapcount> toDatabaseTime
21:28 <@khenn> fyi: PBP says methods should be imperative_verb [_adjective]? _ noun _ [preposition | participle]
21:28 <@khenn> and we do camel case
21:28 <@preaction> "to" isn't even a verb
21:29  * snapcount busts out an English book
21:29 <@preaction> already looked it up
21:29 <@preaction> preposition, adverb, that's it
21:29 <@snapcount> not for that
21:29 <@snapcount> to get the definition of all those words khenn just said
21:29 <@preaction> also part of an infinitive verb (to run, to look, etc...)
21:29 <@khenn> so convertDateToDatabase
21:29 <@khenn> adjective left out
21:30 <@khenn> or: convertDateTimeToDatabase
21:30 <@khenn> which is lengthy IMO
21:30 <@preaction> i'd like Database first, to keep the Database conversion tools close to each other alphabetically
21:30 <@preaction> (and the User conversion methods)
21:30 <@khenn> remember though that this is a maintainability issue
21:30 <@khenn> not a "find the method faster" issue
21:30 <@khenn> that's a bad arguement
21:31 <@preaction> yes, when i maintain WebGUI::DateTime, i have to find the method
21:31 <@khenn> PBP = WPB
21:31 <@khenn> bad arguement
21:31 <@snapcount> Well, I've determined that I can add no more value to this conversation
21:31 <@snapcount> back to i18n
21:31 <@snapcount> woo hoo
21:31 <@preaction> i also read the docs in alphabetical order, because that's the way the code is listed
21:32 <@khenn> but when you are looking at the code itself, it is supposed to have meaning not only to you, but to someone who is reading it for the first time
21:32 <@khenn> we agree that the verb is convert
21:32 <@khenn> now there needs to be a noun
21:32 <@khenn> convertWhat?
21:32 <@khenn> "To" is not a noun
21:33 <@preaction> implicitly, you're converting the DateTime object
21:33 <+MrHairgrease> convertTheFriggingWebGUIDateToMYSQLSNotionOfDate?
21:33 <@khenn> lol
21:33 <@khenn> yep
21:33 <@preaction> basically
21:33 <@khenn> too long though
21:34 <@khenn> and "The" is not necessary
21:34 <@preaction> get rid of the adjectives, you're left with convertDateToDatabase
21:34 <@snapcount> and the 'S' in MYSQL should be lower case
21:34 <@khenn> Friggin would be the adjective
21:34 <@khenn> actually, all of it should be
21:34 <@khenn> since it's a proper noun
21:34 <+MrHairgrease> I'd call it OMGWTFBBQ
21:35  * MrHairgrease get back to writing stuff
21:35 <@preaction> i'll add an alias for you
21:35 <@khenn> convertDateToDatabase IMO
21:35 <@snapcount> but that's backwards
21:35 <@khenn> howso?
21:36 <@khenn> convertDateForDatabase
21:36 <@snapcount> because your converting it to the databases date format
21:36 <@snapcount> there you go
21:36 <@khenn> but what are you converting?
21:36 <@snapcount> the param passed to the method
21:36 <+MrHairgrease> covertDateToDatabaseFormat
21:36 <@khenn> no, it's the datetime stored in the object if I'm not mistaken
21:36 < greghacke> convertToDB<Date|Time>
21:36 <+MrHairgrease> that would do it
21:37 <@khenn> greghacke: missing a noun
21:37 < greghacke> ah, now i see the conundrum
21:37 <@snapcount> if there is no param, the object makes it obvious what's being converted imo
21:37 <@snapcount> but maybe that's still bad practice
21:37 <+MrHairgrease> oh
21:38 <@khenn> you still need the noun for readability
21:38 <@khenn> according to PBP
21:38 <@snapcount> I like MrHairgrease's the best then
21:38 <@snapcount> although long
21:38 <@snapcount> it is very clear
21:38 <@snapcount> and doesn't break any rules
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> please note that I have almost never had any trouble with understanding the current naming convention
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> if ever
21:39 <@snapcount> MrHairgrease: covertDateToDatabaseFormat
21:39 <@snapcount> that one
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> so you'll get something like this
21:39 <@preaction> i've always known that any object method starting with "to" does some sort of conversion (ancient tradition)
21:39 <+MrHairgrease> $startDate->convertDateToDatabaseFormat?
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> that's silly
21:40 <@snapcount> that was my earlier argument
21:40 <@snapcount> but it was shot down
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> in that case it should be
21:40 <@snapcount> or better yet
21:40 <@preaction> i made that argument myself, but PBP says "throw out tradition"
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> convertTodatabaseDateFormat
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> or
21:40 <@snapcount> $startTime->convertDateToDatabaseTime( time() );
21:40 <+MrHairgrease> extractToDatabseFormat
21:41 <@snapcount> that's really retarded
21:41 <@preaction> snapcount: you can't convert a Date to a Time :p
21:41 <@snapcount> time is epoch and includes the date
21:41 <@snapcount> no?
21:41 <@snapcount> number of seconds since 1970 something
21:41 <+MrHairgrease> preaction: you're just thinking in 4 dimensions
21:41 <+MrHairgrease> no
21:41 <@preaction> for our current purposes, Date is just the date, Time is just the time, and Datetime is both
21:42 <@snapcount> good lord
21:42 <@preaction> and epoch is right out
21:42 <+MrHairgrease> epoch != time
21:42 <@snapcount> I'm really bowing out now
21:42 <@snapcount> this is getting serious =P
21:42 <@preaction> it IS serious
21:42 <@preaction> once this API is locked down, we're stuck with it
21:42  * MrHairgrease wants to kick somebody's ass
21:42  * snapcount chants fight! fight!
21:42 <+MrHairgrease> I like a lot of the pbp's
21:42  * preaction wants to be lazy and leave things as they are
21:42 <+MrHairgrease> but
21:43  * perlDreamer notes that laziness is a virtue
21:43 <+MrHairgrease> applying them thoughtlessly 
21:43 <+MrHairgrease> is not a good thing
21:43 <@preaction> perlbot laziness
21:43 < perlbot> The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer.
21:43 <@khenn> well if we are going to implement a coding standard, it's important to stick to it
21:43 <+MrHairgrease> not all of them make that much sense
21:43 <@snapcount> MrHairgrease++
21:43 <@snapcount> but we already broke one rule
21:43 <@snapcount> so why not another if there is a good argument
21:43 <@snapcount> (like now)
21:43 <@snapcount> cough*
21:44 <+perlDreamer> slippery slope
21:44 <+MrHairgrease> I say
21:44 <@snapcount> indeed
21:44 <+MrHairgrease> stick with the current naming conventions
21:44 <+perlDreamer> there must be a good reason for breaking _or_ continuing to implement
21:44 <@khenn> how about:
21:44 <+MrHairgrease> i have a good reason
21:44 <+MrHairgrease> if we change some new methods now
21:44 <@khenn> $startDateObj->setDatabaseFormat();
21:44 <+MrHairgrease> we'll have to rewite the entire api
21:44 <@preaction> the reason for conventions is maintainability, do we as a community feel that specifying that "object conversion methods" are named "to<format>"
21:45 <@snapcount> I think "to" implies conversion more so than set
21:45 <+MrHairgrease> to follow some rule people tend to find silly
21:45 <@preaction> khenn: "set" is bad, nothing's being set, it's just returning the appropriate value
21:45 <@snapcount> even if it's not a verb
21:45 <+MrHairgrease> setThingy is good in my book
21:45 <@khenn> violates PBP.  I don't care if we do that, but it needs to be something everyone agrees with
21:45 <+MrHairgrease> it is accepted through the entire perl world
21:45 <@khenn> and something we all do
21:46 <+MrHairgrease> sure enough
21:46 <+MrHairgrease> hear hear to that
21:46 <@khenn> ie: a standard
21:46 < greghacke> ie: a gift to web developers
21:46 <@snapcount> isn't this usually when rizen chimes in and says we're all wrong?
21:46 <+perlDreamer> paging rizen
21:46 <@preaction> snapcount: i've been holding my breath
21:46 <@rizen> what?
21:46 <@snapcount> uh oh
21:47 <+perlDreamer> WGBP naming conventions
21:47 <@snapcount> read the last 6 screen fulls
21:47 <+perlDreamer> may we consider the preposition "to" as a verb for method naming conventions?
21:47 <@preaction> lowdown: object conversion method (like "toString" from Java), named "convertTo<something>" or "convert<what>To<something>" or just "to<something>"
21:47 <@rizen> to is fine
21:47 <@rizen> toString toNumber
21:47 <@rizen> whatever
21:48 <+MrHairgrease> yay
21:48 <+MrHairgrease> so it should be toDatabaseDate
21:49 <+MrHairgrease> ...Time/DateTime
21:49 <@preaction> we have consensus?
21:49 <@khenn> toDatabaseFormat
21:50 <+MrHairgrease> what format
21:50 <+MrHairgrease> there are three
21:50 <@preaction> (format being "Date" "Time" or "Datetime"?)
21:50 <@khenn> allow it to be passed in
21:50 <@khenn> as an option
21:50 <@khenn> it should probably be anyway
21:50 <@khenn> rather than it being restricted to something hard coded
21:50 <+MrHairgrease> you mean as an parameter?
21:50 <@khenn> I'd think so
21:50 <@khenn> yes
21:50 <+MrHairgrease> that seems like a bad idea to me
21:51 <@preaction> the difference between toDatabaseFormat("Date") and toDatabaseDate()?
21:51 <+perlDreamer> yeah, if you want to convert a date, make a new object and do it there
21:51 <+MrHairgrease> the latter is easier to remeber
21:51 <@khenn> how about toDBDateFormat then?
21:51 <+MrHairgrease> and is more readable imho
21:51 <@khenn> then you can have toDBTimeFormat
21:52 <@khenn> toDBDateTimeFormat
21:52 <@snapcount> abbreviations are forbidden
21:52 <@khenn> no they aren't
21:52 <@snapcount> that pre-dates wgbp
21:52 <+perlDreamer> that's why I used mysql :)
21:52 <@snapcount> I seem to remember many people killed on the dev list for abbreviations in code
21:52 <+MrHairgrease> look in your archive for the Martin WTF!!! emails
21:52 <@snapcount> there you go
21:53 <@snapcount> gotta work on something else, back later guys
21:53 <@khenn> Avverviate only when meaning remains unambiguous
21:53 <@khenn> DB is not ambiguous
21:53 <@khenn> since it's used all over WebGUi
21:53 <@khenn> $self->session->db
21:54 <+perlDreamer> to me, DBDate looks like DBD ate, not DB Date
21:54 <+MrHairgrease> there's your pen island again
21:54 <+MrHairgrease> =)
21:54 <+perlDreamer> yeah!
21:54 <+MrHairgrease> If you want to attach Format to the method names
21:54 <+MrHairgrease> go ahead
21:54 <@khenn> well that's why pbp says to use underscores =p
21:55 <@preaction> i wish we'd be using underscores :p
21:55 <+MrHairgrease> but I think it's unnecessary
21:55 <+perlDreamer> now that we have a ruling from rizen, maybe we should revisit the original problem
21:55 <+perlDreamer> preaction: will you please restate it?
21:55 <+perlDreamer> what we have, and what the question is?
21:56 <@preaction> the original problem that we worked out to make the current problem?
21:56 <+perlDreamer> no.  the original naming convention, and what the proposal for changing the name was
21:56 -!- MrHairgrease is now known as MrAfkGrease
21:56 <@khenn> <preaction> the method is used to convert a WebGUI::DateTime object to the timezone and format used for the MySQL database
21:57 <@preaction> oh that
21:57 <@khenn> what is returned?
21:57 <@khenn> is it a string?
21:57 <+perlDreamer> yes
22:02 <@khenn> emergency - discussion on hold
22:02 <+perlDreamer> no sweat
22:02 <+perlDreamer> I'll go for a run
22:03 < ckotil> rfe: expand apon WebGUI Collateral Image Manager. Goal: to use webgui as a document management system.
22:15 -!- Jamie [n=chatzill@207-118-206-236.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #webgui
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23:13 <+MrAfkGrease> anybody knows a way to grep through pdf's?
23:15 <+perlDreamer> pdftotext?
23:15 <+MrAfkGrease> yeah
23:15 <+MrAfkGrease> but how do i know which file my text is in?
23:16 <+perlDreamer> use STDOUT as the second argument
23:16 <+perlDreamer> pdftotext file.pdf - | grep blah
23:16 <+MrAfkGrease> no
23:16 <+MrAfkGrease> that's not what i want
23:16 <+MrAfkGrease> i wanna do this
23:16 <+MrAfkGrease> pdftotext *.pdf | grep bl;ah
23:16 <+MrAfkGrease> i need to which file
23:17 <+perlDreamer> do you use bash or tcsh?
23:17 <+MrAfkGrease> bash
23:17 <+MrAfkGrease> no
23:17 <+MrAfkGrease> dash
23:17 <+MrAfkGrease> almost the same thing i think
23:17 <+perlDreamer> well, I'll give you pseudocode and you can adapt it
23:18 <+MrAfkGrease> ok thanks
23:18 <+MrAfkGrease> first im gonna try somethin else though
23:18 <+MrAfkGrease> pls wait
23:18 <+perlDreamer> for file in *.pdf; do echo $file; pdftotext $file - | grep -l blah; done
23:23 <+MrAfkGrease> crap
23:23 <+MrAfkGrease> it's just listing all files
23:24 <+perlDreamer> remove the -l
23:24 <+MrAfkGrease> did that
23:24 <+MrAfkGrease> didn't help
23:24 <+perlDreamer> then the string isn't in there
23:26 <+MrAfkGrease> sry
23:26 <+MrAfkGrease> it is working
23:26 <+MrAfkGrease> i'm just being dumb
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23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> martin@hopla:~/Desktop/oled$ for file in *.pdf; do echo $file; pdftotext $file - | grep -l Transparent; done
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> elsevier-0040-6090.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> (standard input)
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> JJAP-45-L947.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> JVA000288.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> (standard input)
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> JVA001866.pdf
23:27 -!- bopbop [n=kristi@68-114-216-78.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has left #webgui []
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> (standard input)
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> SYM000974.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> SYM001902.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> ThinSolidFilms394-219-233.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> (standard input)
23:27 <@snapcount> wtf?!
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> Transparent_and_conducting_ITO_films_new_devlopments_and_applications.pdf
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> (standard input)
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> Standard input means i've grepp correctly
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> omg bbq
23:27 <+MrAfkGrease> sory for that
23:28 <+perlDreamer> np
23:28 <@snapcount> I just about kicked you
23:28 <@snapcount> I thought you had a cat crawling on your keyboard or something
23:28 <+MrAfkGrease> no man
23:28 <+perlDreamer> his can is smart
23:28 <+perlDreamer> it can type .pdf several times in successino
23:28 <+MrAfkGrease> this is hardcore university something stuff
23:28 <@snapcount> a genetically modified cat?
23:29 <+MrAfkGrease> well i still have a mouse on my desk
23:29 <+perlDreamer> I thought he did silicon, but maybe HairGrease is expanding
23:29 <+MrAfkGrease> ok that wasn't funny
23:29 <@snapcount> maybe he was chasing the mouse
23:29 <@snapcount> now that *really* wasn't funny
23:29 <+MrAfkGrease> i've met my match
23:30 <+MrAfkGrease> finally
23:30 <@snapcount> heh
23:30 <+MrAfkGrease> time for a beer
23:30 <@snapcount> back to bugs weeeee
23:31 <+MrAfkGrease> good luck
23:31 <+perlDreamer> shouldn't need luck
23:31 <+perlDreamer> we're good at putting bugs into WebGUI
23:31 <+MrAfkGrease> that's for sure =)
23:32 <@snapcount> so perlDreamer: I discovered this entire template has not been documented
23:32 <@snapcount> so I'm documenting it
23:32 <@snapcount> should make you happy
23:32 <+perlDreamer> which one did I miss?
23:32 <+perlDreamer> is it EMS?
23:32 <@snapcount> either that or it is documented and I've wasted an hour of my life
23:32 <@snapcount> the checkout template
23:32 <@snapcount> in the EMS
23:32 <+perlDreamer> There are 5 Assets I haven't reviewed yet
23:32 <+perlDreamer> EMS
23:32 <+perlDreamer> Event
23:33 <+perlDreamer> Calendar
23:33 <+perlDreamer> Matrix
23:33 <+perlDreamer> and Shortcut
23:33 <+perlDreamer> I wouldn't doubt there's missing stuff in all of them
23:33 < preaction_> *cough* you're going to be wicked mad when you look at the calendar :p
23:33 <+perlDreamer> I doubt it
23:33 <+perlDreamer> I've done worse
23:33 -!- preaction_ is now known as preaction
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23:33 <+perlDreamer> I volunteered to do all the initial i18n and docs for the EMS
23:34 <+perlDreamer> just haven't kept up with the updates
23:35 <@snapcount> crap crap
23:35 <@snapcount> I'm cut off b/c my vm can't get an IP addy
23:35 <@snapcount> my wireless router stopped working so the only way I could get online was to connect straight to the cable modem
23:36 <@snapcount> it only gives me one IP =/
23:37 <@preaction> snapcount: i've noticed that whenever i leave my home network, Parallels doesn't understand and will not get an internet connection
23:37 <@preaction> also, i can't connect to parallels using scp or ssh
23:38 <@snapcount> I've never had those problems
23:38 <+perlDreamer> me either
23:38 <+perlDreamer> I don't use Parallels
23:38 <@snapcount> do you use the same network adapter at both networks?
23:38 <@snapcount> wireless or wired
23:38 <@preaction> wireless
23:38 <@snapcount> at both places?
23:38 <@preaction> yes
23:38 <@snapcount> hmm
23:38 <@snapcount> that works for me fine
23:38 <@preaction> one was at JT's house
23:39 <@preaction> it might be that i'm using "Generic 2.16 Linux Kernel" instead of a specific one
23:39 <@preaction> since using the Debian one does not work for Ubuntu
23:39 <@preaction> rather didn't work for me
23:41 < ckotil> can additional meta data info be accessed via a tmpl_var ?
23:41 <+perlDreamer> like asset meta data?
23:42 < ckotil> yes.
23:43 <+perlDreamer> <tmpl_var metaDataFieldName> should work
23:43 < ckotil> sweet. thanks
23:43 <+perlDreamer> no problem.
23:43 <+perlDreamer> I'm sure that I can count on your vote in the next election
23:44 <+perlDreamer> snapcount: this is a good read http://www.kineticode.com/docs/polymorphic_database_design.pdf
23:45 <@snapcount> sounds cool
23:45 <@snapcount> like a 6 headed badger or a ferral earth worm
23:45 <+perlDreamer> It means "no more joins"
23:46 <@snapcount> has that same ring to it
23:50 <+perlDreamer> I think I've finally got this worked out
23:50 <+perlDreamer> inheritance rocks
23:58 <@snapcount> oo programming can be very elegant
23:59 <+perlDreamer> yeah, as I found out, not in this case
23:59 <@snapcount> heh
--- Log closed Thu Feb 01 00:00:25 2007