--- Log opened Tue Jan 03 17:52:12 2006
17:52 -!- xdanger [i=xdanger@i.should.be.in.a.mentalhouse.net] has joined #webgui
17:52 -!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
17:52 -!- Irssi: Join to #webgui was synced in 0 secs
17:54 < lonki> k, talk to you later guys, I'm going home
17:54 -!- lonki is now known as lonki_home
17:54 <@bwvoidfv> hello xdanger
17:55 <@bwvoidfv> i'm matthew wilson (from the wg-dev list)
17:56 < xdanger> hi, i'm Jukka Raimovaara... long time reader of wg-dev...
17:57 <@bwvoidfv> what's your relation to webgui?
17:57 <@bwvoidfv> (other than being on the dev list) :)
17:57 < xdanger> I was kinda hoping for a irc-channel for webgui, because just some times someone might want to just chat about wg
17:57 < xdanger> I've been using it from 6.0
17:58 < xdanger> maintaining a couple of sites..
17:58 <@bwvoidfv> yeah.  there were several others on it yesterday (Crythias and Colin, also from the dev list)
17:59 <@bwvoidfv> they'll be on later.
17:59 < xdanger> ok
17:59 <@bwvoidfv> what timezone/country are you in
17:59 < xdanger> just have to say that I really like wg
17:59 < xdanger> finland
17:59 <@bwvoidfv> i like it too.  most of the time. :)
18:00 < xdanger> yeah =)
18:00 <@bwvoidfv> is web hosting your primary job
18:00 < xdanger> I was just wonderin the reason for the removal of If macro... I use it on every my sites..
18:01 <@bwvoidfv> merely to reduce plainblack support costs.  The If macro is too flexible/capable to be secure/reliable (supportable).
18:02 <@bwvoidfv> so now it's been demoted to a 'contribution' :)
18:02 < xdanger> well My two companies are in a middle of reorganization... my old company is going to shutdown and I'm transfering my "stuff" to the new company that we put up last year..
18:03 <@bwvoidfv> ah.
18:03 < xdanger> mainly we are a hosting/websolutions company, but we do webpages and graphics..
18:04 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
18:04 <@bwvoidfv> welcome crythias.
18:04 < crythias> hello
18:04 <@bwvoidfv> xdanger: do you use the WRE
18:05 < xdanger> bwvoidfv: nope, we have our own "hoster" based on debian/ldap/postgresql
18:06 < xdanger> mainly the reason I don't like the WRE is that I trust the debian security team to keep our software up to date..
18:06 <@bwvoidfv> ah.
18:06 <@bwvoidfv> do you use mod_perl?  what version of webgui?
18:06 < xdanger> currently 6.7.7
18:07 < xdanger> and yes mod_perl since 6.0
18:07 <@bwvoidfv> mod_perl 1 or 2 ? :)
18:07 < xdanger> I've been using perl apps quite long time, so that was my biggest criterion
18:08 < xdanger> 2
18:08 <@bwvoidfv> oh.  i'm glad you're in the community.
18:09 < xdanger> almost all our software is from debian sarge, so I'm not quite happy about 6.8 requiring mysql 5 and mod_perl2 2.0.x (? debian has 1.999-something..)
18:10 <@bwvoidfv> it doesn't actually required 5; just 4.1.
18:10 < xdanger> I know =)
18:11 <@bwvoidfv> but yeah, mod_perl2.0.2 and latest libapreq2 are required
18:11 < xdanger> but I belive that 4.1 subquerys are a bit kind of hack =)
18:11 <@bwvoidfv> i introduced the first subqueries into the core codebase....
18:11 <@bwvoidfv> they were necessary to solve data integrety issues b/c of the way certain things were designed with the versioning system.
18:12 <@bwvoidfv> in other words, things in 6.7 might return bad data sometimes.
18:12 <@bwvoidfv> on rare occasions.
18:12 < xdanger> I think I'm going to sit on 6.7 until 6.9 or maybe 7.0... but that dependences on our customers..
18:12 <@bwvoidfv> I would highly recommend that.
18:13 < xdanger> I know, I reported the issue with collaboration reporting random revision based order =)
18:13 <@bwvoidfv> ah.  on the support boards or on sourceforge?  
18:14 < xdanger> I've backported your changes to collaboration system to 6.7 ;)
18:14 <@bwvoidfv> oh, good. :)  
18:14 < xdanger> I have a modified collaboration system in use that allows different kinda listings...
18:15 < xdanger> http://luovapaja.fi/taitajat
18:15 < xdanger> you can browse by the first letter or category on the right..
18:15 <@bwvoidfv> that's pretty speedy.
18:16 <@bwvoidfv> too bad I don't read whatever this language is.
18:16 < xdanger> finnish =)
18:17 <@bwvoidfv> nice css.
18:17 < xdanger> it's a local portal for ... creative people =)
18:19 < xdanger> our graphics guy does all the css/html also =)
18:19 < xdanger> his site: http://rook.fi/about.php
18:19 <@bwvoidfv> webgui 7.0 is going to have an entirely different look/feel for both the administration templates and the default templates.
18:20 < xdanger> and does some little cms-kind-of-hacks in php..
18:20 < xdanger> so I understood...
18:20 < xdanger> but I like the current admin templates =)
18:20 <@bwvoidfv> would you submit a screenshot/description of luovapaja.fi to http://www.plainblack.com/webgui/campaigns/sightings
18:20 < xdanger> well there's allways room for improvment =)
18:22 < xdanger> argh, my english is a bit rusty...
18:23 <@bwvoidfv> i'll edit it
18:23 < xdanger> I'm not concerned about that, just my speedy chat english =)
18:24 <@bwvoidfv> oh
18:25 < xdanger> I've also been thinking that we could be w3-finland, since we have done a bit of traslation and have some knowledge about wg =)
18:25 < xdanger> have had a mail to jt/plainblack on my todo list for a long time but never got around to it..
18:26 <@bwvoidfv> speaking of which...
18:26 <@bwvoidfv> looks like ^W3 macro is broken.
18:26 <@bwvoidfv> at http://www.plainblack.com/w3
18:26 < crythias> darn W3 macro.
18:26 < crythias> heh :) somebody didn't read the gotcha :)
18:27 <@bwvoidfv> lol
18:27 < xdanger> =D
18:27 <@bwvoidfv> you can fill out the form http://www.plainblack.com/w3/application
18:28 < xdanger> mayby someday in the near future..
18:29 < crythias> BADREDR
18:29 <@bwvoidfv> xdanger: (yesterday crythias and I were playing the "who can type the funniest license plate" game)
18:30 < crythias> I win, of course.
18:30 <@bwvoidfv> SAYSWHO
18:30 < crythias> ISAIDSO
18:30 < crythias> THATS Y
18:31 <@bwvoidfv> do you have custom vehicle plates in finland?
18:31 < xdanger> some sites that are unfinnished: http://tnnet.axxion.fi/ http://dp.axxion.fi/ (that one's layout and structure has been messed up by the customer =))
18:31 < xdanger> yes, but in the form on xxx-111
18:31 < crythias> It's in Finland. They're all finnish'd :)
18:31 < xdanger> eh :)
18:31 <@bwvoidfv> unfinished
18:32 <@bwvoidfv> ha
18:32 <@bwvoidfv> those are very pretty.
18:32 < xdanger> damn irssi doesn't have a spellchecker =)
18:32 <@bwvoidfv> please put them on sightings?
18:32 <@bwvoidfv> or i'll order crythias to.
18:33 < xdanger> and the "forever" (in the spirit of duke nukem forever) site project, our own: http://beta.axxion.fi/
18:33 < xdanger> our "mascot" axi: http://beta.axxion.fi/axi
18:33 < crythias> UORDRHU ?
18:34 <@bwvoidfv> LSTNHERE
18:34 <@bwvoidfv> UJOKE
18:34 < xdanger> xxx-1 was owned by a local pornstar ;)
18:34 < crythias> DNT MK ME
18:34 <@bwvoidfv> MKMYDAY
18:35 < crythias> MNY SPNT
18:35 <@bwvoidfv> 1DOL WHR
18:35 < crythias> Who's lonki_home?
18:35 <@bwvoidfv> Hans Wolters
18:36 < crythias> Hiya, Hans!
18:36 <@bwvoidfv> he left it on for the evening (he went home)
18:36 <@bwvoidfv> hence _home
18:36 < crythias> oh.
18:36 < crythias> Hiya, xdanger. I'm Gerald.
18:37 < xdanger> hi =)
18:38 < xdanger> I'll but those sites up on sightings when they are published for everyone to see =)
18:38 <@bwvoidfv> ok; yay.
18:41 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
18:41 < crythias> hi
18:41 < lenthamen> howdy
18:42 <@bwvoidfv> welcome Len
18:42 < xdanger> hi
18:42 < lenthamen> Crythias have you seen my mail on apache process growth on FreeBSD ?
18:43 < crythias> yes
18:43 < crythias> I don't run so hard as you...
18:43 < crythias> probably not worth a sighup as much as a timed shutdown restart.
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> This was a well-known issue with mod_perl 1.x built using DSO.  I never 
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> use graceful restart because of this.  I thought 2.x got rid of this 
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> issue though.  You could try making a static build and see if that fixes 
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> it. 
18:44 <@bwvoidfv>  
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> - Perrin
18:44 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat051.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
18:44 <@bwvoidfv> welcome Colin
18:44 < perlDreamer> Hey, Matt!
18:44 < xdanger> just begining to fell like "I'm not worthy" 'cous I'm the only one who isn't a wg-developer here =)
18:45 < perlDreamer> so how about a quick round of introductions so we can connect a screen name to an email address?
18:46 < perlDreamer> y'all probably know me better as ckuskie@sterling.net, or colink
18:46  * bwvoidfv is Matthew Wilson, of Plainblack-dom.
18:46  * bwvoidfv is a.k.a. matthew@veradox.com
18:49 < xdanger> Just a user/admin from finland, only posted once on wg-dev, jukka.raimovaara@dlvisions.fi, but migrating to use @axxion.fi because business reorganization.
18:50 < xdanger> that should ve user/admin/fan =P
18:50 <@bwvoidfv> lonki_home is offline (_home)
18:54 < crythias> I'm Gerald. Ifoundthisemailonwebgui@gwy.org
18:54 < lenthamen> I'm Len. len@primaat.com from The Netherlands.
18:55  * crythias is tired of answering support calls.
18:56 < crythias> sorry. Been a bit under the weather.
18:57 < perlDreamer> not since that last storm...
18:59 < lenthamen> bwvoidfv: Building a static apache2 is not the solution for mod_perl leaking perl imho
19:01 <@bwvoidfv> oh
19:02 < lenthamen> xdanger what kind of site are you running ?
19:05 < xdanger> lenthamen: http://luovapaja.fi/ and unfinished: http://tnnet.axxion.fi/ http://dp.axxion.fi/ http://beta.axxion.fi/ and I've also helped with http://elker.fi/
19:07 < lenthamen> What a weird language that is :) Nice sites though.
19:08 < xdanger> lenthamen: we (Axxion Oy) are a webhosting/websolution provider, and what I brought with me to that company was webgui ;)
19:08 < xdanger> finnish =)
19:10 < crythias> wow. And I thought Japanese was bad with respect to more syllables=more polite :)
19:10 < crythias> Are they mostly compound words in Finnish?
19:11 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat051.mxim.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:11 < lenthamen> I think Finish is one of the rare European languages that has no connections to other languages.
19:11 < xdanger> I'ts a slavic language =)
19:12 < lenthamen> Yeah, it's like hungarian.
19:12 < xdanger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
19:13 < xdanger> for all your questions ;)
19:13 < lenthamen> I'm going home guys. My workday is finished :) ttyl !
19:13 < crythias> l8rness
19:14 < xdanger> I am home...
19:14 <@bwvoidfv> I am home and at work.
19:14 < xdanger> it's 19:14 here..
19:14 < lenthamen> here 18:14
19:15 <@bwvoidfv> here 11:14
19:15 < crythias> 12.17
19:15 < xdanger> and i also work from home (since we don't have an office at the moment =))
19:16 < lenthamen> Are you in helsinki xdanger ?
19:16 < xdanger> finland, the land of linux and irc =)
19:16 < xdanger> lenthamen: no, in Jyväskylä.. Jyvaskyla if you don't include tha scandic letters
19:18 < xdanger> It's a town in center finland... about 85 000 people here..
19:18 < lenthamen> never heard of :) I'm 30 min. from Amsterdam.
19:18 < xdanger> this is something like 3h from helsinki...
19:19 < xdanger> if's -1.3°C, and snowing outside... beatifull...
19:20 < xdanger> last week it was -20 =)
19:21 < lenthamen> I know it can be cold out there ! They offer Snow Scooter Safaris to Finland here :)
19:23 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:32 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
19:33 < crythias> darn peer pressure
19:33 < crythias> Heya
19:33 < rizen> howdy
19:34 < rizen> who is bwvoidfv
19:34 <@bwvoidfv> me
19:34 < crythias> Matthew
19:34 < rizen> wow, everyone uses such strange names
19:34 < rizen> that i'm not familiar with
19:34 < rizen> except for gerald
19:34 < rizen> =)
19:34 < crythias> heh
19:35 -!- crythias is now known as doanbehayten
19:35 <@bwvoidfv> where did perlDreamer go
19:35 < doanbehayten> dropped
19:35 -!- doanbehayten is now known as crythias
19:36 -!- bwvoidfv is now known as makinMoneyForThe
19:36 <@makinMoneyForThe> oops
19:36 -!- makinMoneyForThe is now known as pbMoneyPrinter
19:36 < crythias> heh
19:37 < crythias> so, matt, you fix that nasty bug I sent ya?
19:37 <@pbMoneyPrinter> uh; which one
19:37 < crythias> the one that turns all images to nasty wmfs
19:38 <@pbMoneyPrinter> yeah, i had to remove that back door that's been in webgui since 6.1.1
19:39 <@pbMoneyPrinter> j/k
19:39 < crythias> I heard that there is a built-in backdoor JTH4X
19:40 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
19:41 -!- pbMoneyPrinter is now known as hallMonitor
19:43  * crythias has a pass
19:51  * hallMonitor revokes crythias' pass.
19:51  * crythias leaves a trail of yellow back to his classroom.
19:53 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
19:54 < rizen> gerald
19:54 < crythias> yes
19:54 < rizen> what's your email address?
19:54 < crythias> me@gwy.org
19:55 < crythias> btw: JT, apologies.
19:55 < rizen> i'm bestowing upon you a great honor
19:56 < rizen> and i hope you'll accept
19:56 -!- macOnki [n=hanswolt@lonki.xs4all.nl] has joined #webgui
19:56 < macOnki> hi
19:56 < rizen> We're starting a new Spread WebGUI campaign today
19:56 <@hallMonitor> hello macOnki
19:56 < rizen> it's called the People Behind WebGUI
19:56 -!- hallMonitor is now known as mdawg
19:56 < crythias> OK.
19:56 < rizen> it's basically just an interview with people who contribute a lot to the webgui world
19:57 < rizen> You are among the first to be interviewed
19:57 < rizen> The other two to start out the process with you are Len and Colin
19:57 < crythias> Sure. Thanks. I'll do right by yeh.
19:57 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
19:57 < rizen> You should now have the email with the list of questions.
19:57 < macOnki> for those of you who do not know me, I'm Hans Wolters  :-)
19:57 < rizen> Hi Hans
19:57 < macOnki> hi rizen
19:57 < rizen> /whois
19:57 < rizen> hmmm
19:57 < macOnki> I know
19:58 < perlDreamer> rizen: matt mentioned that you wanted to talk to me?
19:58 <@mdawg> oh... lonki is your work login
19:58 <@mdawg> perlDreamer=Colin
19:58 < macOnki> mdawg, yes
19:58 < rizen> Yes Colin
19:59 < rizen> I'm going to tell you what I just told Gerald
19:59 < rizen> but first, what's your email address?
19:59 < perlDreamer> ckuskie@sterling.net
19:59 < rizen> ah yes
19:59 < rizen> that's right
19:59 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by mdawg
19:59 <@mdawg> be back in a bit.
19:59 < rizen> We're starting a new Spread WebGUI Campaign today
20:00 < rizen> It's called the "People Behind WebGUI"
20:00 < rizen> It's basically an interview with people that make the webgui community work
20:00 < rizen> the first three that have been selected for interview are You, Gerald, and Len
20:00 < rizen> I've just emmailed you the questions
20:00 < rizen> for the interview
20:00 < rizen> I hope that you'll accept this interview
20:01 < rizen> and agree to be in the listing
20:01 < rizen> The idea behind this is to give WebGUI a human element
20:01 < rizen> Right now, people really don't know much about us
20:01 < rizen> the people that make WebGUI live
20:01 < rizen> I think that should change
20:02 < rizen> So that's where this idea comes in.
20:02 < perlDreamer> Did you know that WebGUI was in the first issue of Open Source Enterprise magazine?
20:02 < perlDreamer> (I think that was the name)
20:02 < rizen> no i didn't
20:02 < rizen> Did you do that?
20:02 < perlDreamer> No.
20:03 < rizen> Anyway, once per month from here on out we're going to send out this list of questions to people in the community who we think should be in the spotlight
20:03 < rizen> But initially, we're going to put up 3 so there's some good starting content
20:03 -!- mdawg is now known as mdawg_atLunch
20:03 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by crythias
20:04 -!- mode/#webgui [+o perlDreamer] by crythias
20:04 -!- crythias changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI CMS ... and more | www.plainblack.com
20:04 <@perlDreamer> okay, I gotta ask.  What is "mode +o"?
20:04 <@perlDreamer> I accept the invite to the interview.  When would you like answers back?
20:05 <@rizen> the sooner the better
20:06 <@crythias> mode +o is operator of channel
20:07 <@crythias> it allows control of moderation, addition of other ops, and ability to /kick users
20:18 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["User disconnected"]
20:55 -!- mdawg_atLunch is now known as mdawg
20:57 <@mdawg> hello room
20:57 < macOnki> hi
21:00 <@crythias> hi
21:04 <@crythias> wow.
21:04 <@mdawg> ?
21:05 < macOnki> if you say wow now already then wait until this channel has 400 visitors daily :-)
21:05 <@crythias> I didn't know the government obscured planting explosives in the WTC and ignored a coordinated effort to simultaneously explode plus crash planes into them.
21:06 <@crythias> the things you learn in comments on digg.
21:06 < macOnki> well, it's not my government :-)
21:07 <@mdawg> nor mine.
21:07 <@mdawg> regardless of how hard it tries to be.
21:07 <@perlDreamer> you may not like it, but it's still your government
21:08 <@crythias> yeah. 
21:08 -!- crythias was kicked from #webgui by mdawg [for straying off topic]
21:08 < macOnki> could you all clear me on how webgui validates user input b.t.w?
21:08 <@perlDreamer> like where?
21:08 <@perlDreamer> in an asset?
21:08 < macOnki> well, in the forms for example
21:08 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
21:08 < crythias> you're funny
21:08 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by mdawg
21:08 <@perlDreamer> some form types validate input based on type
21:09 <@perlDreamer> like dates, integers, etc.
21:09 < macOnki> I know, I submitted the XSS bug
21:09 <@perlDreamer> most however, just take what they're given and hand it back to whomever embedded the form
21:09 <@perlDreamer> like an asset.
21:09 <@perlDreamer> It has to be done that way, because the form element itself has no idea what it's input would be used for.
21:10 < macOnki> but there only seems to be no internal validation on the type, only client side checking with javascript, I hope I am wrong
21:10 <@perlDreamer> Again, it depends on what's using the form element
21:11 <@perlDreamer> A forum post isn't validated, but when it is displayed it may be washed through one of the filters for removing macros, or javascript, or more (or less)
21:11 < macOnki> hmmm, yuk
21:11 <@mdawg> why yuk
21:12 < macOnki> when the admin wants an integer value it should be checked before you store it in a database imho
21:12 < macOnki> it could even be typecasted probably
21:13 <@perlDreamer> In each form in lib/WebGUI/Form/*.pm, look for a subroutine called getValueFromPost
21:13 <@perlDreamer> if there's any form based validation, it would be done in there.
21:13 < macOnki> hmm, ok
21:13 <@perlDreamer> Here's the one from Form/Integer.pm, for example:
21:13 <@perlDreamer> sub getValueFromPost {
21:13 <@perlDreamer>         my $self = shift;
21:13 <@perlDreamer>         my $value = $session{req}->param($self->{name});
21:13 <@perlDreamer>         if ($value =~ /^[\d\-]+$/) {
21:13 <@perlDreamer>                 return $value;
21:13 <@perlDreamer>         }
21:13 <@perlDreamer>         return 0;
21:13 <@perlDreamer> }
21:14 <@mdawg> onki: are you talking about the DataForm wobject?  or writing custom assets?  or user profile fields?
21:14 < macOnki> currently it is possible to enter js into both the text and the url field
21:14 <@perlDreamer> You could try writing a bunch of tests to see what you can shove into the Forms, but that would require mocking up Apache::Request objects.
21:14 < macOnki> mdawg, yes
21:14 <@mdawg> which one
21:14 < macOnki> the default form generator, and the default contact form
21:15 < macOnki> see the bug entry and the mailing list today
21:15 < macOnki> or yesterday for you maybe
21:16 <@mdawg> okay, so DataForm.
21:16 <@mdawg> not user profile fields or custom assets.
21:16 < macOnki> no
21:16 < macOnki> indeed the DataForm
21:17 <@mdawg> perlDreamer - he's not talking about the api, just an existing core wobject.
21:17 <@perlDreamer> I know.
21:18 <@perlDreamer> maybe the best thing to do would be to build an option into the base text form element so that you could pass it a filter.
21:18 <@mdawg> what onki is suggesting, then, is filtering dataform submissions for javascript, which isn't currently done.
21:18 < macOnki> perlDreamer, that would be a good idea 
21:18 <@perlDreamer> but what he's talking about isn't limited to the DataForm, it applies to anywhere a Text like form element is used and not checked.
21:18 < macOnki> eeks
21:19 <@perlDreamer> that's right
21:19 <@perlDreamer> anywhere
21:19 <@mdawg> but imo those should be handled on a case-by-case basis, leaving the api as is
21:19 < macOnki> that will give some serious problems in the future
21:20 <@mdawg> well, every form control should have a filter callback coderef then...?
21:20 <@perlDreamer> Some of them already filter in their getValueFromPost subroutines.
21:20 <@perlDreamer> it's just that general purpose things, like Text, don't
21:21 < macOnki> b.t.w. I already mailed JT about a more serious bug, it is possible to missuse the noCache param in the GET values to look at the saved data as a visitor (data shown by the list all entries), even if normally only the admin can see it
21:22 < macOnki> Together with the XSS bugs it would be possible to send someone the noCache param en give them reading access to that data
21:23 <@mdawg> ah.  that's b/c someone forgot to put security checking in DataForm's view() method.
21:23 <@perlDreamer> you'd have to set up filtering on a per field basis then.
21:23 < macOnki> might be, havn't looked at how the code handles that
21:24 <@perlDreamer> and migrate all existing DataForms via an update script.
21:24 < macOnki> brb
21:28 < macOnki> re
21:38 <@perlDreamer> so I've been doing some thinking about where else the XSS might pop up
21:38 <@perlDreamer> there are all assets
21:39 <@perlDreamer> File, Image, Event
21:39 < macOnki> I will do some additional testing tonight
21:41 < macOnki> or tomorrow
21:41 <@perlDreamer> you're in Finland?
21:41 < macOnki> no, the Netherlands
21:42 <@mdawg> xdanger is in finland.
21:42 <@perlDreamer> similar time zone.  It's almost tomorrow for y'all anyway :)
21:42 < macOnki> :-)
21:42 <@crythias> still getting more hits for my pcanywhere dynamic IP stuff than my free norton antivirus getter.
21:42 <@mdawg> crythias: oddness.
21:42 <@mdawg> crythias: stay on topic. ;)
21:42 <@crythias> oh, yeah.
21:43 <@mdawg> or change the topic listed. :-D
21:43 <@crythias> this is my and more.
21:43 <@mdawg> oh, right.
21:43 <@mdawg> gotcha.
21:44 <@crythias> WGNODOX
21:44 <@mdawg> hey :p
21:44 <@crythias> PA4SPRT
21:45 <@mdawg> WGTSTLSS
21:45 < macOnki> so, you are all working on webgui fulltime? :-)
21:45 <@mdawg> no, goofing off fulltime.
21:45 <@mdawg> :p
21:45 < macOnki> hehe
21:45 <@crythias> hardly working.
21:45 <@mdawg> barely working.
21:45 <@mdawg> colin: merely working
21:45 <@crythias> MODPRL2
21:45 <@mdawg> jt: just working
21:46 <@mdawg> xdanger: you still there?
21:46 <@crythias> I'm not so much a programmer of WebGUI as one who tries to provide free support.
21:46 <@crythias> MDAWG
21:47 <@crythias> PRLDRMR
21:47 <@mdawg> WREWG
21:47 < macOnki> WTF ?
21:47 <@mdawg> funny custom license plate/tag contest.
21:47 <@crythias> webgui runtime envirunment webgui?
21:47 -!- mike_s [n=mike@s205-206-123-62.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #webgui
21:47 <@mdawg> welcome mike.
21:47 <@crythias> RUGUI?
21:48 <@perlDreamer> GOT GUI?
21:48 < mike_s> thx mdawg -- thought i'd come see the hub bub... ;)
21:48 <@crythias> 2GUI2^C
21:48 <@mdawg> mike: we're a little offtopic currently (funny custom license plate/tag contest).
21:48 < mike_s> anybody drag JT onto here yet?
21:48 <@crythias> he's been
21:48 <@mdawg> yeah for a minute.
21:48 <@perlDreamer> he was here earlier
21:49 <@crythias> then we bother him with all sorts of nonsense about his involvement in perl conspiracies and... 
21:49 -!- crythias was kicked from #webgui by crythias [stop rambling]
21:49 < mike_s> lol -- ya -- he is really tolerant about that kind of thing... 
21:49 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
21:49 <@perlDreamer> macOnki: daytime, I'm a chip designer.  nightTime I'm a WebGUI documenter/tester/hacker
21:50 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by mdawg
21:50 < macOnki> ah, sounds nice
21:50 <@mdawg> between day and night, he is a husband/father/webmaster.
21:50 <@perlDreamer> tuba player
21:51 <@crythias> my wife plays flute and I play YuGiOh...
21:51 < macOnki> *g*
21:51 <@mdawg> my wife plays french horn & piano.  i play nylonstring guitar.
21:51 <@crythias> not exactly something that should be said in the same sentence. I suppose...
21:52 -!- mode/#webgui [+o macOnki] by mdawg
21:52 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mike_s] by mdawg
21:52 <@macOnki> dirty minds all think the same
21:52 <@perlDreamer> Suit her up and ship her out west.  We could use a good french horn player in orchestra.
21:52 <@macOnki> ow guys, do me a favor, do not op me, been one for 5 years at #php
21:52 <@mike_s> so have any of you tried out the dashboard yet?
21:52 -!- mode/#webgui [-o macOnki] by mdawg
21:52 < macOnki> thanks
21:53 < macOnki> give that to the webgui hackers :-)
21:53 <@mdawg> i'm afraid i'm the chump who wrote the thing (dashboard).
21:53 <@mike_s> hey !!! love it man
21:53 <@mike_s> very nice job mdawg
21:54 <@mdawg> gee thanks; i appreciate the appreciation.
21:54 < macOnki> mdawg, what inspired you? macosx?
21:54 <@crythias> Slacker can't fix real bugs.
21:54 <@mike_s> when i last chatted with JT sounded like not taht many people *getting* it yet
21:54 <@perlDreamer> not many using 6.8 yet
21:54 <@mdawg> the specs inspired me.  Steve (plainblack's designer) admits to being influenced by macosx's titlebars/buttons.
21:55 <@mdawg> he did the colors/buttons.
21:55 < macOnki> ah, ok
21:55 <@mdawg> crythias: "Slacker can't fix real bugs."?
21:56 <@mdawg> LAYDOWN
21:56 <@perlDreamer> it's much more fun to make them than fix them
21:57 <@mdawg> I doubt anyone's actually seen the dashboard in action (besides you, mike), and the handful of people who have access to plainblack.com/clients
21:57 <@mike_s> it's working pretty well in my tests
21:57 <@mike_s> still working out the auto-refresh
21:57 <@mdawg> by handful, I mean, compared to the scores of people who visit the rest of plainblack.com
21:58 <@mike_s> and getting some fatal errors with Cahrt Director edits - but not sure how to tell if that is due to CHartDirector or to dashboard
21:58 <@mdawg> i've never used chart director.
21:59 <@mike_s> y - 3rd party wobject that we paid PB to updte for 6.7|8
21:59 <@mike_s> but very nice in the dashboard context with autorefreshing graphs
21:59 <@crythias> DOWNBOY
21:59 <@mdawg> that's neat.  i'd like to see it sometime
22:00 <@crythias> ChartDirector is nice
22:01 <@mike_s> here ya go - i just made it visible to everyone for the moment... http://dev4.dwvpn.net/mydashboard
22:02 <@perlDreamer> headin' out to lunch.  catch you guys later
22:02 -!- perlDreamer is now known as perlDreamer_lunc
22:03 <@mdawg> cool; that's fast.
22:03 <@mdawg> the refresh I mean.
22:03 <@mdawg> can't even tell it's occurring unless i watch the http headers.
22:04 <@mike_s> anyhow - good framework that should mature over next while...
22:04 <@mdawg> yeah
22:05 <@mdawg> did JT mention to the the extensibility/plugin potential?
22:05 <@mdawg> to you
22:05 <@mike_s> no....  :)  care to tell me?
22:06 <@mdawg> New Dashlet containers (similar to Shortcut's functionality) can be created to hold/import any of the existing dashlet frameworks out there (Microsoft's gadgets, google's homepage dashlets, apple's desktop objects, yahoo's homepage dashlets).
22:06 <@mdawg> there are tens of thousands of those dashlet thingies out there for the various frameworks.
22:07 <@mdawg> Apple's being the best and most extensive.
22:07 <@mike_s> very cool -- would be very attractive to those wanting to create consolidated dashboards
22:07 <@mike_s> could even see someone creating a mydashboard.com kind of site...
22:08  * mdawg scurries off to check if mydashboard.com is taken
22:08 <@mike_s> lol - me too
22:09 <@mike_s> gone
22:09 <@mike_s> although superdashboard.com would work....
22:09 <@mike_s> just pay me a commission if you do it... ;)
22:13 <@crythias> D4SHB04RD.COM is available
22:13 <@crythias> of course nobody would be able to type it.
22:14 <@mdawg> mike - i watched the paper napkin ads
22:14 <@mdawg> some time ago
22:14 <@crythias> dashboardlive.com
22:15 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
22:15 <@crythias> hello
22:15 < rizen> holy crap balls and stuff
22:15 < rizen> there's a lot of people on here
22:15 <@crythias> most are sleeping.
22:15 < macOnki> not true :-)
22:15 <@crythias> I can actually get h3110.com
22:16 -!- mdawg is now known as FranksWGSlave
22:16 <@mike_s> guess i can't mock jt anymore... 
22:16 <@crythias> heh
22:16 < rizen> as it should be matt
22:16 <@crythias> this is all Colin's fault.
22:16 < rizen> why can't you mock me anymore?
22:16 < rizen> i'm totally mockable
22:16 <@mike_s> mdawg - what did you think of the napkins?
22:17 <@FranksWGSlave> well done.  very professional.
22:17 <@mike_s> it was fun to do -- and it is pretty much what i would do sitting down with someone anyhow - 
22:17 <@mike_s> jt -- i like the pluggable dashlet idea... very cool
22:17 < rizen> why are we talking about napkins?
22:18 < rizen> which pluggable dashlet idea?
22:18 -!- crythias changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI CMS ... and more | www.plainblack.com | napkin friendly!
22:18 < rizen> the one where we use other people's dashlets?
22:18 <@mike_s> yes!
22:19 < rizen> matt and i each came up with it independently...so it must be a good idea
22:19 <@mike_s> u do that and we're al lgonna go setup a dahsboard consolidation site and make a gazillion dollars
22:19 <@FranksWGSlave> now *that* was not my idea.
22:19 <@FranksWGSlave> the dashboard consolidation site.
22:20 < rizen> mike, what makes you think that i would allow you to do that
22:20 < rizen> did you read the fine print of WebGUI's license?
22:20 <@mike_s> lol - cuz you'd get a cut?
22:20 < rizen> yup
22:20 < rizen> it's actually the GBL not the GPL
22:20 < rizen> and it says that 50% of all money that exchanges hands related to or directly through webgui
22:21 < rizen> shall be put directly into jt's back pocket
22:21 <@mike_s> what a deal!
22:21  * crythias starts polishing forks.
22:21 < rizen> =)
22:21  * FranksWGSlave puts the nose to the grindstone
22:21  * macOnki logs into the server, sudo rm -rf /data (there, that will save the company a lot :-)
22:22 <@crythias> hrm... server runs much faster.. and doubled its capacity!
22:22 <@mike_s> and no more of that non-standard /data stuff... ;)
22:22 <@crythias> hee
22:22 < macOnki> hehe
22:22 < rizen> that's right mike
22:23 < rizen> because you love your
22:23 < rizen> /usr/local/web/webgui directory
22:23 <@crythias> oh. wait. what's this? don't rm across filesystems?
22:23 < rizen> and your sites called
22:23 < rizen> somerandomname
22:23 <@mike_s> lol -- just a little sensitive?? 
22:23 < rizen> with a config file called sm_rand-name43
22:23 < rizen> =)
22:23 < rizen> no, just saying you've got no room to talk when it comes to "non-standard"
22:24 <@mike_s> ya - well we outsourced all that to you now -- enjoy rejecting our reality and substituting your own... 
22:24 <@FranksWGSlave> WIFEBTR
22:24 < rizen> indeed
22:24 < rizen> so who created this channel?
22:24 < rizen> was it matt?
22:24 < rizen> and what is it here for?
22:25  * FranksWGSlave looks around
22:25 < rizen> what are we accomplishing?
22:25 <@mike_s> bonding without the beer so far...
22:25 < rizen> i c
22:25 <@crythias> I created the channel
22:25 <@FranksWGSlave> well, very late last night crythias and I were having a funny license plate contest
22:26 <@crythias> but it was Colin's idea
22:26 <@FranksWGSlave> hence random msgs like 'WIFEBTR'
22:27 <@crythias> WTHSTPD
22:27 < rizen> besides each of you being members of the webgui community
22:27 < rizen> what does this have to do with webgui?
22:27 <@mike_s> i learned about hte dashboard plugin idea.... :)
22:27 < rizen> ok.....but
22:27 < rizen> i guess what i'm trying to figure out is
22:28 < rizen> is this a permanent thing
22:28 < rizen> and what's it's function
22:28 <@crythias> it's cool for at least a few of us developer types  to collaborate
22:28 < rizen> entertainment?
22:28 < rizen> support?
22:28 < rizen> dev discussion?
22:28 < rizen> ok
22:28 < rizen> so it's a "whatever comes up"
22:28 < rizen> kind of place
22:29 <@FranksWGSlave> isIn($entertainment,@okayThings)?1:0
22:29 < rizen> /help
22:29 < rizen> hmmm...this irc client doesn't seem to support commands
22:30 <@crythias> didn't think that was irc client's fault
22:30 < macOnki> rizen, what client are you using?
22:30 <@FranksWGSlave> Fire
22:30 < rizen> yeah, i'm using fire
22:30 < rizen> it's actually an im client
22:30 < rizen> with irc built in
22:31 < rizen> i didn't expect it to be fully functional
22:31 < macOnki> try xchat aqua if you are on osx
22:31 <@crythias> I'm using gaim.
22:31 < rizen> but i figured that commands should work
22:31 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by crythias
22:33 <@rizen> whoa
22:33 <@rizen> now that i've been granted op status
22:33 <@rizen> i get right click options on people
22:33 -!- mode/#webgui [-o mike_s] by rizen
22:34 < mike_s> lol
22:34 -!- mode/#webgui [+o macOnki] by rizen
22:34 -!- mode/#webgui [+v mike_s] by rizen
22:34 -!- mode/#webgui [+v macOnki] by rizen
22:34 <@FranksWGSlave> macOnki doesn't want to be op
22:34 -!- mode/#webgui [-o macOnki] by rizen
22:34 <+macOnki> thanks
22:34 <@rizen> what is "Voice"
22:34 <@FranksWGSlave> i dunno
22:34 <@rizen> mike_s has been voiced
22:34 <@crythias> think it means can speak in moderated channel
22:34 <@rizen> it's been a thousand years since i've used irc
22:35 <+macOnki> crythias, it is
22:35 -!- mode/#webgui [-v macOnki] by rizen
22:35 -!- mode/#webgui [-v mike_s] by rizen
22:35 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mike_s] by rizen
22:35  * FranksWGSlave scurries off to write an ajax irc client wobject in his spare time
22:35 <@crythias> You work for plainblack.com. You don't have spare time.
22:35  * FranksWGSlave loves issuing vaporware announcements
22:36 < macOnki> b.t.w. did Len already visit this channel? we seem to live in the same city
22:36 <@FranksWGSlave> yes for an hour or two earlier today.
22:37 < macOnki> hmm, must have missed that
22:38 <@FranksWGSlave> HALFEYE
22:38 -!- mode/#webgui [+m] by crythias
22:38 <@crythias> oops
22:38 -!- mode/#webgui [-m] by crythias
22:39 <@crythias> what's with the napkins?
22:40 -!- crythias changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI CMS ... and more | www.plainblack.com
22:40 <@FranksWGSlave> http://www.donorware.com/coffee
22:40 <@mike_s> it was just a way for us to educate folks on what we do...
22:41 -!- perlDreamer_lunc [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:41 <@crythias> it's fast
22:42 <@crythias> think i want some cherry cobbler, now
22:42 <@FranksWGSlave> -cobbler
22:43  * crythias smacks FranksWGSlave. Sicko.
22:43 <@FranksWGSlave> oh wait.  
22:43  * FranksWGSlave 's face turns red
22:45 <@crythias> I've heard of DonorWare .. I think.
22:45 <@rizen> mike, that's brilliant
22:45 <@mike_s> just a flash object in webgui
22:45 <@mike_s> some little powerpoint to flash converter
22:45 <@FranksWGSlave> rizen: hence the napkin references earlier.
22:46 <@mike_s> easy to update and maintain
22:46 <@mike_s> we've also started using wimpy player for embedding audio greetings on pages
22:47 <@rizen> that's not the brilliant part
22:47 <@rizen> the technology part of this is almost irrelavant
22:47 <@mike_s> lol - what part do you like?
22:47 <@rizen> the presentation (the napkins idea)
22:47 <@rizen> and the really dumbed down presentation
22:47 <@mike_s> i agree - we wanted to communicate to non-techies in a way they would feel comfortable with
22:47 <@rizen> giving real world examples
22:48 <@rizen> it's very well written
22:48 <@mike_s> took about 10 days to put it all together
22:49 <@rizen> brilliant
22:49 <@rizen> when 7.0 comes out i'll have to get my peeps to put together something similar
22:49 <@rizen> or perhaps i'll have to do it myself
22:49 <@crythias> OK. JT: why are dataforms not altering real tables?
22:49 <@mike_s> yep - something that targets mid-level managers
22:49 -!- crythias was kicked from #webgui by FranksWGSlave [for speaking blasphemy]
22:49 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
22:50 < crythias> ??
22:50 <@rizen> matt...why did you kick him
22:50 <@FranksWGSlave> just playin'.
22:51 < crythias> I did finally pay for support... :)
22:51 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by FranksWGSlave
22:51 <@crythias> did I miss the answer?
22:51 <@rizen> am i missing something?
22:52 <@rizen> what does paying for support have to do with this question?
22:52 < macOnki> you see, this is why I didn't want ops :-) newbies always start kicking people :-)
22:52 -!- mode/#webgui [-o FranksWGSlave] by rizen
22:52 <@rizen> regardless
22:52 <@rizen> the answer is this:
22:52 <@rizen> allowing users to arbitrarily modify database tables
22:52 <@rizen> is DANGEROUS
22:53 < macOnki> unless it are heap tables;
22:53 <@rizen> that's why the tables are simulated for the dataform
22:53 <@crythias> well, how much more dangerous than killing a field?
22:53 <@rizen> what i want to do is eventually replace the dataform
22:54 <@rizen> i could care less what users do with their data in the dataform
22:54 <@rizen> yeah, they can delete fields or whatever
22:54 <@rizen> that's not why it's dangerous
22:54 <@crythias> but if you create a table for a dataform, let that be the same deal.
22:54 <@rizen> what's dangerous is allowing users to go around creating tables in the webgui database
22:54 <@rizen> deleting tables in the webgui database
22:54 <@rizen> or modifying tables in the webgui database
22:54 <@crythias> but they wouldn't have any more rome than you'd give them.
22:55 <@crythias> rome:roam
22:55 <@crythias> New dataform: new table
22:55 <@mike_s> crythias -- are you needing more regular looking tables for reporting?  would views in MySQL 5 address the need?
22:55 < macOnki> what would be a good idea is to use levels with access granted, visitors only need select, insert, update
22:55 <@rizen> not exactly true
22:55 <@rizen> but regardless
22:55 < macOnki> users could have more rights
22:55 <@rizen> in the old days
22:55 <@rizen> i was trying to make webgui database agnostic
22:55 <@rizen> and as such
22:56 <@rizen> create/drop/alter syntax is different from database to database
22:56 <@rizen> so that was another reason
22:56 <@crythias> that I understand.
22:56 <@rizen> it doesn't much matter anymore though
22:56 <@rizen> because dataform is dead
22:56 <@crythias> but queries on dataforms stink.
22:56 <@rizen> no new features will be added to it until it is replaced
22:56 -!- lenthamen [n=len@83.116.130.37] has joined #webgui
22:56 <@rizen> dataform will be replaced with a new asset that will allow you to create actual databases
22:57 <@rizen> it will work like ms access
22:57 <@crythias> dbs or just tables?
22:57 <@rizen> it will allow you to add multiple tables
22:57 <@rizen> structure the workflow of the application
22:57 <@rizen> design user interfaces
22:57 <@rizen> and reports
22:57 <@rizen> etc
22:57 <@rizen> databases
22:57 <@rizen> not tables
22:57 -!- mode/#webgui [+o FranksWGSlave] by crythias
22:58 -!- mode/#webgui [-o FranksWGSlave] by rizen
22:58 -!- mode/#webgui [-o crythias] by rizen
22:58 <@rizen> you should have never promoted me
22:58 <@rizen> i've now taken control of your channel
22:58 < macOnki> rizen, that will not allow us to host more then one customer on a single machine, if you grant users the rights to create databases then you might as well give them the database root privs
22:59 <@rizen> not true
22:59 <@rizen> they can't create databases
22:59 <@rizen> ok i stated that wrong to begin with
22:59 < macOnki> ok, 
22:59 <@rizen> they can create  a database asset
22:59 <@rizen> on the back end
22:59 <@rizen> i don't know how it will work
23:00 <@rizen> there are 3 options currently
23:00 <@rizen> a) a database must be pre-created for them by an admin
23:00 <@rizen> b) a prefix will be used like db_userdb_usertable
23:01 <@rizen> which will create "virtual" databases
23:01 <@rizen> c) users that have the appropriate admin rights will be able to create physical databases
23:01 <@rizen> the database asset will be then bound to one of those backends
23:02 <@rizen> so from the user's point of view
23:02 <@rizen> they have their own database to work from
23:02 < macOnki> well, looking at it as the security guy c is not an option I think
23:02 <@rizen> maybe, maybe not
23:02 <@rizen> i'm not ruling anything out yet
23:02 <@rizen> that's the advantage i get during design phase
23:02 <@rizen> all options are legal
23:03 < macOnki> hi lenthamen b.t.w., hans from piramide here
23:03 <@rizen> we let the real world work it's way in after we've had the opportunity to consider everything
23:04 < xdanger> you could use something like sqlite, and place the database in uploads =)
23:04 < lenthamen> hello all.
23:04 < xdanger> yes, and hi from me too =)
23:04 <@rizen> excellent
23:04 <@rizen> soo now there are 4 options
23:04 <@rizen> =)
23:05 <@rizen> i hadn't considered that, but it's an excellent idea
23:05 < xdanger> that would allow versioning the data base ;)
23:05 <@mike_s> how's sqllite on an nfs mount for clustered environments?
23:06 <@rizen> just so everyone knows...this is a 7.x+++ discussion
23:06 <@rizen> no work will begin on this until much much later
23:06 <@rizen> that is, unless we get some big company to come along and pay for it's development
23:06 < FranksWGSlave> (unless 6.9, 7.0 are extremely well funded asap)
23:07 <@rizen> and there are a few companies who have already expressed interest
23:07 <@rizen> I think i really like the idea of SQL::Lite for this
23:07 <@rizen> i mean SQLLite
23:08 < FranksWGSlave> can you do queries joining the various database handlers
23:08 <@rizen> not that i'm ruling out anything, just moving one to the top
23:08 < FranksWGSlave> webgui db and a sqllite db
23:08 < xdanger> rizen: we also have a lot of intrest in crm & the dbasset you just described...
23:09 < xdanger> but we just don't have very much extra money =)
23:10 < FranksWGSlave> .... or would you copy the sqllite db's into mysql heap db's for such queries
23:10 < FranksWGSlave> .... or not allow such queries
23:11 <@mike_s> you'd need such queries -- just joins on username alone would be important i would think
23:11 <@rizen> i disagree
23:12 <@mike_s> so just do several queries and join in memory?
23:12 <@rizen> there's really no good info in the users table except username
23:12 <@rizen> you may need to get info from the user's profile, but we can provide scripting methods to get to that data if necessary
23:12 <@rizen> this is not meant to become an api to get into webgui's internals
23:12 < macOnki> b.t.w. did someone already start writing views, triggers, etc..?
23:13 < FranksWGSlave> rizen: ah.
23:13 <@rizen> but rather a mechanism for end users to create scalable web apps instead of locking their company into unscalable ms access apps
23:13 <@mike_s> i was asking re views for queries
23:13 < macOnki> havn't tested it yest on mysql 5, triggers do work though
23:14 <@mike_s> personally i like the idea of keeping the data in the webgui db via meta-data - whterh that is field by field or some other technique
23:14 <@mike_s> i'd have concerns about the scalability of SQL::Lite in uplods
23:15 <@mike_s> and use views to make the data more accessible for queries
23:15  * mike_s gets off my soap box
23:15 <@rizen> views don't help performance
23:16 <@rizen> part of the big deal with the dataform is that it doesn't scale
23:16 <@mike_s> no but - but views to dedicated mysql server vs multiple webgui nodes hitting sqllite on an nfs share...
23:16 <@rizen> oh
23:16 <@rizen> right
23:16 <@rizen> i'm not arguing that
23:16 < macOnki> what has been the reason to use strings as the primary key for tables?
23:16 <@rizen> it would need to be tested
23:17 <@rizen> strings?
23:17 < FranksWGSlave> macOnki: they're binary varchar
23:17 <@rizen> are you talking about guids?
23:17 < macOnki> and the reason was?
23:17 <@rizen> macOnki, are you talkinga bout the GUIDs?
23:18 <@rizen> global unique ids?
23:18 <@rizen> userId varchar(22) binary
23:18 < macOnki> rizen, the primary keys on the mysql tables
23:18 <@rizen> ok
23:18 <@rizen> they are GUIDs
23:18 <@rizen> they are strings because making them strings actually makes them unique across multiple servers
23:18 <@rizen> you can't do that with plain old integers
23:19  * mike_s is still looking forward to guids coming to play in exportable/syndicated packages
23:19 <@rizen> the advantage is that you can share content between multiple sites
23:19 < macOnki> rizen, hmm, what if you would use unsigned integers?
23:19 <@rizen> without having guids conflict
23:19 <@rizen> it's not about having a number of them
23:19 <@rizen> it's about having them not conflict
23:19 < macOnki> ok
23:19 <@rizen> encased int that 22 character string
23:19 < crythias> I like signing my content in the UID
23:20 <@rizen> is the date and time it was created
23:20 <@rizen> the sitename it was created on
23:20 <@rizen> and a random 9 digit integer
23:20 < macOnki> ok, that clears a lot for me
23:20 <@rizen> that keeps it unique
23:20 < macOnki> although I know it will be much faster if you would use integers
23:20 <@rizen> it would be faster
23:20 <@rizen> we used to use integers
23:21 <@rizen> but we've switched
23:21 < macOnki> but given the above I understand 
23:21 <@rizen> becauuse the power available to us is better
23:21 < macOnki> using increased cache and buffer size makes it a lot faster too
23:22 < macOnki> for mysql I mean
23:22 < lenthamen> I dont think mysql is the bottleneck for webgui :)
23:22 < macOnki> lenthamen, well, if you have the site you know we have it is :-)
23:23 < macOnki> dropping tables and recreating them doesn't do it any good
23:25 < macOnki> which is b.t.w. a problem, users who do not have enough knowledge of sql should not be allowed to use sql reports :(
23:28 < FranksWGSlave> varchar(22) binary (712 bits) is a MUCH larger space than an unsigned double float integer field could support (64 bits) (equivalent to BIT(64)).
23:28 <@mike_s> but doesn't that make a wel controlled meta-data implementation all the more importatant?
23:29 < macOnki> mike_s, imho it needs privs given within the database yes, I mentioned it before
23:29 < FranksWGSlave> oops nix float (floats aren't integers!) in my last msg.
23:32 < xdanger> just thought that sqlite_db could be cachet with filecache-kind-of consept for reads, and the cache flushed when write's a made... to help with scalability
23:33 < xdanger> but that would be quite complex, i think...
23:33 < macOnki> it will help, but not more then using the mysql query_cache 
23:33 < macOnki> I've seen sites hitting the IO only 1 out of 20
23:35 -!- FranksWGSlave is now known as mdawg
23:40 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by rizen
23:40 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mdawg] by rizen
23:42 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
23:42 -!- mode/#webgui [+v perlDreamer] by rizen
23:47  * lenthamen is thinking about giving up on FreeBSD...
23:48 <+perlDreamer> lenthamen is wise
23:50 -!- snapcount [n=roy@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
23:51 < lenthamen> mdawg: Hows memory management on Windows ?
23:51 <@mdawg> welcome roy
23:51 < lenthamen> I might try that
23:51 < lenthamen> hehe
23:51 <@mdawg> uh; i dunno; i switched to centos
23:51 < snapcount> hey what's up guys
23:52 <@mdawg> you missed a DataForm replacement apocalypse
23:52 <+perlDreamer> where did that end up?
23:52 <@mdawg> with some varying exegeses
23:52 < lenthamen> It ended up in a discussion about GUIDs
23:53 <+perlDreamer> wow, from javascript form validation to GUIDs.
23:53 < macOnki> hehe
23:55 <@mdawg> bye crythias
23:57 <@crythias> buh bye
23:57 <@mdawg> BUHBYE
23:57 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has quit ["adios! see you later!"]
23:58  * mdawg is almost done downloading Vista December CTP (5270)
--- Day changed Wed Jan 04 2006
00:02 <@mdawg> it's getting late in Europe, isn't it?
00:03 < lenthamen> yep, I'm going offline. Its 23:00 here
00:03 < lenthamen> ttyl guys
00:03 -!- lenthamen [n=len@83.116.130.37] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"]
00:03 <+perlDreamer> later len
00:06 <@mdawg> you arrived at a quiet point, snapcount
00:07 <@rizen> are you guys ready for apocalypse #2 for today?
00:07 <+perlDreamer> bring it on
00:07 <@rizen> len and i have been discussing changing webgui's output model
00:08 <@rizen> going more toward apache bucket brigade style of doing things
00:08 <@rizen> it ends up using less memory, processes faster, and most importantly
00:08 <@rizen> gives a percieved performance boost of over 300%
00:08 <@rizen> i say percieved because to the human eye it looks 300% faster
00:09 <@rizen> but in reality it's just about 20% faster
00:09 <@mike_s> is there a link explaining the concept?
00:09 <@rizen> there is, but i'm going to explain it
00:09 <@rizen> in webgui terms right now
00:09 <@rizen> the apache docs are very technical on this subject
00:09 <@rizen> in webgui right now
00:10 <@rizen> a page processes in its entirety before it gets returned to the browser
00:10 <@rizen> before any part of it gets returned
00:10 <@rizen> we do this because any page can cause a 302 redirect, which is in the http head
00:10 <@rizen> and because we need to be able to insert stuff into the <head> block
00:11 <@rizen> the problem with this is that there is a noticable lag between the click and the user getting any data back
00:11 <@rizen> it's not that webgui is slow, it's that webgui processes everything before rendering
00:11 <@rizen> server page languages don't work that way
00:11 <@rizen> they start spewing back as soon as they have content to spew
00:12 <@rizen> i've heard the arguement that webgui is slow compared to php apps
00:12 <@rizen> but it's not really, it's a perceived difference
00:12 <@rizen> not a real difference
00:12 <@rizen> anyway...here's what would change
00:12 <@rizen> there will be a new output class accessible through session
00:12 <@rizen> $session->output->content
00:12 <@rizen> $session->output->header
00:13 <@rizen> (oh yeah, this is the new session object model for those of you who aren't up to speed)
00:13 <@rizen> So assets will be responsible for outputing their own content
00:13 <@rizen> rather than returning it all back to the WebGUI content handler
00:14 <@rizen> i don't have all the details worked out yet, but here's the jist of how it will work
00:14 <@rizen> you make a request to the page
00:14 <@rizen> and the asset gets loaded
00:14 <@rizen> once in the www_ method
00:14 <@rizen> the following happen
00:14 <@rizen> determine if the asset can result in a redirect
00:14 <@rizen> if it can, process it like we do now
00:15 <@rizen> if it can't, send the http header
00:15 <@rizen> determine all the stuff the asset needs to add to the <head> block
00:15 <@rizen> process the style
00:15 <@rizen> process macros on the style
00:15 <@rizen> return the first half of the style
00:16 <@rizen> (everything before <tmpl_var body.content>
00:16 <@rizen> process the asset template
00:16 <@rizen> return the asset content
00:16 <@rizen> return the footer content
00:16 <@rizen> if it's a layout
00:16 <@rizen> which has multiple stages
00:16 <@rizen> then it will work a little differently
00:16 <@rizen> but that's ok, since the asset is responsible for printing it's own content
00:16 <@rizen> if it's a layout
00:17 <@rizen> we'll load up all the sub assets
00:17 <@rizen> get all the head block elements
00:17 <@rizen> then process the style
00:17 <@rizen> process macros on the style
00:17 <@rizen> print the style head
00:17 <@rizen> then process and return each asset in the page
00:17 <@rizen> independently
00:18 <@rizen> as they're rendered
00:18 <@rizen> processing macros on the contents of each one as they go by
00:18 <@rizen> and ultimately print out the style footer
00:18 <@rizen> it's more work for the asset developer to do it this way, by a little bit
00:19 <@rizen> but because we're dumping out buckets at a time
00:19 <@rizen> rather than the entire page contents
00:19 <@rizen> we're not using up as large of chunks of memory
00:19 <@rizen> which makes macro processing faster
00:19 <@rizen> because regex is recursive and uses big heaps
00:19 <@rizen> and most importantly
00:20 <@rizen> the user is seeing the page as it's rendered
00:20 <@rizen> rather than waiting to load anything
00:20 <@rizen> until everything is complete
00:20 <@mike_s> very cool -- any idea how this would be affected by table based layouts vs CSS div based layouts?
00:20 <@rizen> So what do you think?
00:20 <@rizen> won't make any difference
00:20 <@rizen> the layout template will be preprocessed
00:21 <@rizen> and in the space where we currently put asset loops
00:21 <@rizen> we'll just put some sort of a delimiter
00:21 <@rizen> that we can split on
00:21 <@rizen> so that we can chunk the contents of the page layout
00:21 <@rizen> back to the browser
00:21 <@rizen> i doubt it will even change the page layout templates
00:21 <@rizen> it will just change the backend processing a little
00:22 <@mike_s> k- that's that part i was wodnering about
00:22 <@rizen> and there will of course be helper methods in Asset.pm and Asset/Wobject.pm to aid in this
00:22 <@mike_s> so the effect is that it *appears* that the content starts filling in on the page asynchronously
00:22 <@rizen> yup
00:22 <@rizen> it's more like streaming
00:23 <@mike_s> cool - have had clients ask for that...
00:23 <@rizen> we stream the content back in real time
00:23 <@rizen> rather than waiting for processing
00:23 <@rizen> anybody see any problems?
00:23 <@rizen> have any ideas for making it better?
00:24 <@rizen> if not, i can tell you about part two of this apocalypse
00:24 <@mike_s> might be my lack of understanding about how the rendering is done but...
00:24 <@mike_s> how does a style or layout that uses a table get split? 
00:24 -!- mdawg is now known as mdawg_afk-errand
00:25 <@rizen> when the browser gets it, it will be a complete table
00:25 < macOnki> rizen, it sounds ok but like mike_s mentioned, a table design will always wait until the table is closed, if an outer table is part of the layout mike_s remark still stands
00:25 <@rizen> as far as webgui is concerned, it's just a string of text
00:25 <@rizen> so we just chunk it up
00:25 <@rizen> at the variable inserts
00:25 <@rizen> yes mac, that's true
00:25 <@mike_s> so there is some importance to designing styles/layouts to take advantage of this approach
00:25 <@rizen> but you'll have stuff before the table design
00:26 <@rizen> for instance, all teh stuff in the <head> block
00:26 < macOnki> rizen, true, those are parsed
00:26 <@rizen> that stuff can be downloading
00:26 <@rizen> there is some importance
00:26 <@rizen> but not much
00:26 <@rizen> eaven table layouts will render faster
00:26 <@rizen> in modern browsers
00:26 <@rizen> sorry...even
00:26 < macOnki> that all depends on the browser indeed
00:27 <@rizen> i have a demo for you
00:27 <@mike_s> but potentially a css based layout could all be pushed down first, and then the divs filled in async right?
00:27 <@rizen> crap, my demo isn't online...forgot about that
00:27 <@rizen> no demo for you
00:27 <@mike_s> lol - glad that doesn't happen to just me...
00:28 <@rizen> yes, css based layouts will theoretically render faster
00:28 < macOnki> rizen, I understand what you mean, I'm a php developer, ob_flush is what you are trying to achieve I suppose
00:28 <@rizen> but honestly, you likely won't notice that much of a difference
00:28 <@rizen> we're talking about a second or two here anyway
00:28 <@rizen> not minutes
00:29 <@rizen> yes, basically no buffering
00:29 < macOnki> it wouldn't gain any client side speed if the design holds nested tables
00:29 <@rizen> just spew it forward
00:29 <@rizen> yes it still will
00:29 <@rizen> like i said
00:29 <@mike_s> this is probably more meaningful for environemtns using expensive assets like the WS client
00:29 <@rizen> images, css, javascript
00:29 <@rizen> etc
00:29 <@rizen> will still all be requested
00:29 <@rizen> while the user is waiting for the html
00:29 <@rizen> so there will still be perceived speed advantage
00:29 < macOnki> hmm, true
00:30 <@rizen> yes, anything that has to access external content will benefit even more greatly
00:30 <@rizen> because the first part of the page can be downloading
00:30 <@rizen> whilst requesting the second part of the page
00:30 <@rizen> ok
00:30 <@mike_s> for us, the next WS client enhancemnt was either to make it AJAX aware and do its stuff async, or do what JT is describing here
00:30 <@rizen> anymore questions before part 2
00:31 < macOnki> nopes
00:31 <@mdawg_afk-errand> (sry I can't participate more :( )
00:31 <@rizen> actually, the ajax aware thing may be a good idea anway
00:31 <@rizen> anyway
00:31 <@rizen> because that way the entire page can load
00:31 <@rizen> and you can display a little "please wait" message
00:31 <@rizen> while the ajax content is fetched
00:31 <@mike_s> true
00:31 <@mike_s> gotta keep matt busy...
00:32 <@rizen> indeed
00:32 <@rizen> ok...any further questions?
00:32 <@mike_s> nope
00:32 <@rizen> part 2:
00:32 <@rizen> because all the content will be going out through this output class
00:32 <@rizen> macro processing can be done there
00:33 <@rizen> thusly saving the programmer from having to write in macro processing
00:33 <@rizen> in addition, since the content is all going to one place
00:33 <@rizen> it can all be piped out to a cache file
00:33 <@rizen> and then the entire contents of the page (http header and all) can be cached
00:33 <@rizen> so that if the page is requested again
00:34 <@rizen> it can be retrieved directly from the cache
00:34 <@rizen> without even loading the asset
00:34 <@rizen> that's not something we can currently do
00:34 <@mike_s> what about places where macros affect what data is fetched in the first place? (SQL reports or WS CLient) but otherwise very cool for "generic" assets
00:34 <@rizen> on those pages, you'll need to disable caching
00:34 <@rizen> just as you would now
00:34 <@mike_s> fair enough
00:35 <@mike_s> but we would still need the macro processed before output
00:35 <@rizen> ??
00:35 <+perlDreamer> otherise you can't execute the SQL Query that depends on the macro output
00:35 <@rizen> are you talking about preprocessing on the query itself?
00:35 <+perlDreamer> select * from myTable where myField=^FormParam("field");
00:35 <+perlDreamer> yes
00:35 <@rizen> ah yes
00:36 <@rizen> that would continue to be just as it is
00:36 <@rizen> i'm talking about macro processing on the page content
00:36 <+perlDreamer> post processing, so to say
00:36 <@rizen> yes
00:36 <@mike_s> in that case... cool -- would let rendered assets sit in cache...
00:36 <@rizen> basically what i'm getting at here
00:36 <@rizen> is that now that we have an output class
00:36 <+perlDreamer> almost like a little built in squid proxy
00:36 <@rizen> we can acheive all sorts of post processing tasks
00:36 <@rizen> that we couldn't before
00:37 <@rizen> like caching
00:37 <@rizen> like better macro handling
00:37 <@rizen> etc
00:37 <@rizen> exactly like a built in squid proxy
00:37 <@rizen> or more correctly, a reverse proxy
00:37 <+perlDreamer> so would the WRE drop the squid proxy and use this instead?
00:37 <@rizen> no
00:38 <@rizen> it's still beneficial to have the mod_proxy
00:38 <@rizen> serving up static files
00:38 <@rizen> and handling ssl connections
00:38 <@rizen> etc
00:38 <+perlDreamer> okay
00:38 <@mike_s> but with memcahced (yes i'm biased) most of a site could be sitting in cache...
00:38 <@rizen> because mod_perl is still very heavy
00:38 <@rizen> yes
00:38 <@rizen> not just on memcached
00:38 <@rizen> the file cache would be too
00:38 <@rizen> though memcached would be faster
00:38 <@mike_s> right 
00:39 <@mike_s> so main diff is that the caching would be at a rendered asset level instead of a page level?
00:39 <@rizen> so yes, it will take better advantage of your giant memcached servers
00:39 <@rizen> no, the reverse
00:39 <@mike_s> doh
00:39 <@rizen> it would be at the page level instead of the asset level
00:39 <@rizen> and it would be handled outside of assets
00:40 <@rizen> therefore not requiring the asset to be loaded
00:40 <@rizen> in order to serve up the cache
00:40 <@rizen> we're just comparing the requested URL
00:40 <@rizen> and the userId
00:40 <@rizen> no asset privileges
00:40  * mike_s light *** goes on
00:40 <@rizen> so anybody see any problem with this?
00:41 <@rizen> this will be a 6.9 or 7.0 feature, if i can work out all the details
00:41 <@rizen> if i can't work it out, then it won't happen until 9.x or 10.x
00:41 <@rizen> whenever we do the next restructuring
00:41 <@rizen> of the api
00:44 <@mike_s> seems like a good direction from my limited perspective...
00:44 < macOnki> rizen, apart from this, will the api be restructured a lot?
00:45 <@rizen> yes
00:45 <@rizen> the new session system
00:45 <@rizen> to get rid of the global session variable
00:45 <@rizen> has affected every single file in the system
00:45 <@rizen> and therefore the api
00:45 <@rizen> it sux from a migration perspective
00:46 <@rizen> but it's a huge advantage from a future outlook perspective
00:46 < macOnki> rizen, well, that is part of another problem, we are still in the process of updating sites, with an api changing this much there will be problems upgrading to newer versions, please be aware
00:46  * mike_s personally wants a *very* stable api in 7.x
00:46 <@rizen> jt want's what mike wants
00:46 <@mike_s> LOL
00:47 <@rizen> mac, i understand your perspective
00:47 <@rizen> believe me
00:47 < macOnki> rizen, part of the problem is that the upgrade scripts do not work as the way people expect it
00:47 <@rizen> plain black manages more than 2000 web sites for our clients
00:47 <@rizen> some with 10's of thousands of lines of custom code
00:47 < macOnki> and the company I work for is thinking about other solutions 
00:47 <@rizen> the upgrade scripts can't work perfectly
00:47 <@rizen> too much is different
00:47 <@rizen> and there are too many variables from install to install
00:48 <@rizen> we test and test and test
00:48 <@rizen> and we still never can account for every single thing
00:48 <@rizen> here's what i recommend
00:48 <@rizen> buy our advanced support package
00:48 <@rizen> then it's our problem
00:48 <@rizen> not yours
00:48 <@rizen> we'll do your upgrades for you
00:48 <@rizen> ask, mike
00:48 <@rizen> we do it for his org
00:49 <@mike_s> lol -- still not painless, but not as bad as the last upgrade cycle
00:49 <@mike_s> and to JT's credit, when we do have a problem, he owns it
00:49 < macOnki> rizen, we do not have enough paying customers using webgui to get that kind of support, migrating to for example exponentcms which has simular problems security related can be fixed by me.
00:50 < macOnki> or by anyone  else with a deeper knowledge of php
00:50 < macOnki> the problem with webgui is the ever changing api
00:50 < macOnki> no offence 
00:50 <@rizen> sure, but there's nothing i can do about php
00:50 <@rizen> i'm certainly not going to rewrite it in php
00:51 <@mike_s> so jt - after 6.9 -- how long with the api be locked in?
00:51 < macOnki> I didn't ask that :-)
00:51 <@rizen> mac, how long have you been part of the webgui community?
00:51 <@rizen> did you come in after 5.5?
00:51 < macOnki> rizen, only short, but I did read a lot
00:51 <@rizen> ok
00:51 < macOnki> 5.4
00:51 <@rizen> so you never experienced the bliss that was pre 5.5 upgrades
00:51 <@rizen> once we get to 7.0.0
00:52 <@rizen> there will be ZERO new API changes
00:52 <@rizen> until the next restructuring
00:52 <@rizen> we'll add to the API to give more functionality
00:52 < macOnki> true, but this isn't an attack to webgui. I only state what we are thinking about
00:52 <@rizen> but never change or delete any part of the api
00:52 <@rizen> which means that assets, macros, etc that are written for 7.0.0
00:52 <@rizen> will work on 8.5.9
00:53 <@mike_s> serious?
00:53 <@rizen> also, it means that your upgrades will be far more smooth than they have ever been in your webgui lifetime
00:53 <@rizen> yes i'm serious
00:54 <@rizen> the only way that an asset (or whatever) that was written for 7.0.0 won't work in 8.5.9 would be if it's using some bugged part of the api
00:54 <@mike_s> so what were the commetns re 9.x and 10.x previously? any expected lifespan yet? (not a fair question, but is 7.x gonna last longer than 6 months)
00:54 <@rizen> as in, the bug gets fixed
00:54 <@rizen> and the fix breaks the code
00:54 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has left #webgui []
00:54 <@rizen> but the API will not change
00:55 <@rizen> 9.x or 10.x (whatever the next restructuring ala 6.x is) will be 3 or 4 years down the road
00:55 <@rizen> at minimum
00:56 <@mike_s> so we have 7/8 for 3-5 years of stability ?
00:56 <@rizen> yes
00:56 <@rizen> we may have 7/8/9/10/11/12
00:56 <@rizen> for all i know
00:56 <@rizen> version numbers are irrelevant as far as this goes
00:56 <@mike_s> anything beyond 3-5 years is meaningless
00:56 <@rizen> just know that you have AT MINIMUM 3 years of stability
00:57 <@mike_s> the world changes too much
00:57 <@rizen> i agree that the world changes too much
00:57 <@rizen> but that's what 6.x has been about
00:57 <@rizen> giving us a platform we can build on
00:57 <@rizen> without chaning the apip
00:57 <@rizen> api
00:57 <@rizen> only adding to it
00:58 <@mike_s> so what is the big picutre purpose of 7.x vs 8.x in your mind?
00:59 <@mike_s> are you that far in your thinking yet>?
01:00 <@rizen> each one will have functional goals
01:00 <@rizen> 7.x should be about commerce
01:00 <@rizen> 8.x should be about whatever functional goal we come up with at that time
01:00 <@rizen> but who knows
01:01 <@rizen> 7.x is still 6 months away
01:01 <@rizen> by then i may decide that 7.x is about CRM
01:01 <@rizen> and 8.x is about web games
01:01 <@mike_s> so in some ways, the question is, while breaking the apis for eliminstating global sessions, does it make sense to also make the move the apache buckets
01:01 <@mike_s> or wait for that until 9 or 10
01:02 <@rizen> actually no
01:02 <@rizen> that's not the question
01:02 <@rizen> i already know it makes sense to do it
01:02 <@mike_s> personally, i want the api pain to stop, but i'd rather get the api changes done once and for all for a *long* time
01:02 <@rizen> the question is whether or not i'm smart enough to figure out how to do it in a reasonable timeframe
01:02 <@rizen> 6.x has dragged on long enough
01:02 <@rizen> i won't delay the release of 7.0.0 just to do that
01:03 <@mike_s> in whcih case it waits for 3-5 years?
01:03 <@rizen> yes
01:03 <@rizen> because it requires a break in the api
01:03 <@rizen> if it doesn't get done now
01:03 <@rizen> it won't get done for a very long time
01:03 <@rizen> that means that i either better be as smart as i think i am
01:03 <@mike_s> sin which case ajax aware ws client becomes way more meaningful
01:03 <@rizen> (which isn't very)
01:04 <@rizen> or we need to get a lot of money flowing in to hire people smarter than me
01:04 <@rizen> =)
01:04 <@mike_s> lol
01:04 <@rizen> like i said before
01:04 <@rizen> the ajax ws client makes sense anyway
01:04 <@rizen> it's the right thing to do
01:04 <@rizen> regardless of this stuff
01:05 <@mike_s> ya - i'm sure we'll be talking about that yet....
01:05 <@rizen> mac
01:05 <@rizen> did we lose you?
01:05 < macOnki> no
01:05 <@rizen> does my 3 year promise sound good to you?
01:05 <@rizen> will you relay that to your colleagues
01:05 < macOnki> 3 years sounds good, but I see a lot of problems
01:06 <@rizen> fill us in
01:06 <@rizen> what problems
01:06 < macOnki> I want to think about it and do some more research before I reply
01:06 <@rizen> ok, at least hint me
01:06 <@rizen> problems with the 3 year promise
01:06 <@rizen> or with the bucket output
01:06 <@rizen> or with something else
01:07 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has joined #webgui
01:07 < macOnki> rizen, well, part of it would be what I mailed you about, looking at the code and hearing what was told here today will make me have a sharper look
01:07 < macOnki> even the fact that you are considering ajax
01:08 < macOnki> webgui needs proper input validation for instance
01:08 -!- perlDreamer [n=ckuskie@nat050.mxim.com] has left #webgui []
01:08 <@rizen> that's easily done though
01:08 <@rizen> our forms system is all OO
01:08 < macOnki> if you would use ajax without it you will have a big problem
01:08 <@rizen> by changing a single method
01:08 <@rizen> i can validate every form element for XSS
01:09 < macOnki> rizen, again, I will need to investigate it a bit more but I do see problems
01:09 <@rizen> please note that most of webgui already has such validation
01:09 <@rizen> the parts of webgui exposed to users
01:09 <@rizen> user profile fields, cs posts
01:09 <@rizen> etc
01:10 < macOnki> well, people told me that all textfields are not validated since webgui can't expect what is supposed to be submitted
01:11 < macOnki> maybe there is a backlog of todays discussion
01:11 < macOnki> but is webgui tested for sql injections?
01:12 < macOnki> rizen, to be more precise, I am afraid it hasn't been tested, I hope I am wrong
01:12 <@rizen> hold on a sec, on phone
01:12 < macOnki> np, back in a minute too, taking a cigaret
01:16 < snapcount> anytime user data is passed into an sql statement it should be escaped by the quote method
01:17 < snapcount> which in the webgui api is just a wrapper for DBI quote
01:17 < snapcount> that should quash any sql that is passed in
01:17 < macOnki> snapcount, bullshit, forgive me for saying that
01:17 < macOnki> it should be checked before inserting it into the database
01:17 < snapcount> it is
01:18 < macOnki> it isn't
01:18 < snapcount> quote is executed before the statement is executed on the db
01:18 < macOnki> whenever you quote user input you should depend on sanitizing the output, this is not done
01:19 < macOnki> but rizen can fill you in on what I discovered today
01:20 < snapcount> I'm not following you
01:21 < snapcount> are you saying it's okay to let the injection happen so long as you don't let it affect what is sent back to the user?
01:21 < macOnki> snap, I can insert js into text fields, you can quote it before inserting it into the database but webgui fails to check it when it's read from the database
01:22 < snapcount> oh
01:22 <@mdawg_afk-errand> onki is referring to a situation in dataform where js is inserted.  snapcount is referring to escaping sql code, not js.
01:22 < snapcount> yes
01:22 < snapcount> XSS vulnerabilities do exist
01:22 < snapcount> and need to be fixed
01:23 < macOnki> whenever you store data it should be what you expect
01:23 < snapcount> I agree... I just wouldn't describe what you're talking about as SQL injection
01:23 < snapcount> that's where the confusion came in
01:23 < snapcount> I smell what you're cookin'
01:24 < macOnki> true, but these issues are in general part of the sql injections. I am not saying webgui has those problems but stated that I will need to examine that a bit more
01:25 <@mdawg_afk-errand> does anyone here mind if today's irc transcript is emailed to the dev list?
01:25 <@mdawg_afk-errand> I won't do it if anyone objects in the next 7 hours.
01:25 <@mdawg_afk-errand> or even next 18 hours.
01:25 < macOnki> mdawg_afk-errand, I think it's better to store it somewhere online and post the link :-)
01:25 -!- mdawg_afk-errand is now known as mdawg
01:26 <@mdawg> that could be.
01:27 < snapcount> I'm okay with it so long as my name is changed to "Rizen's Daddy whom he worships because $self->coolness > his"
01:27 < snapcount> or something to that effect
01:27 <@mdawg> i thought maybe you'd want to see the 1000 lines you missed
01:27 < macOnki> rizen, sorry but I need some sleep now, It is past midnight over here, I can discuss the issues again tomorrow
01:27 < macOnki> night all
01:28 <@mdawg> night
01:28 -!- macOnki [n=hanswolt@lonki.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"]
01:28 < snapcount> by the way... is there a bot that will keep this channel alive?
01:28 <@mdawg> no; want to make one?
01:29 < snapcount> yeah... I haven't done it since I was like 12 though
01:29 <@mdawg> :-D
01:29 < snapcount> I've some friends over on #novell on a different network... I'll see what they're using
01:30 < snapcount> I'm pretty sure my TOS will allow me to host it but I'm not sure
01:30 < snapcount> unless PB wants to host it
01:30 < snapcount> I don't care either way
01:36 <@mdawg> i dunno.  I don't know if pb's datacenter allows that either.
01:39 <@rizen> ok back
01:39 <@rizen> sorry that took so long
01:39 <@rizen> people like to chat
01:39 <@rizen> looks like mac is gone
01:39 <@rizen> too bad
01:40 <@mdawg> his other login is lonki_home (his work pc)
01:41 <@mdawg> so he'll have a transcript of this.
01:41 <@mdawg> if you wanted to send him a msg that he'll get in a few hours.
01:43 <@rizen> i c
01:43 <@rizen> well then the answer is:
01:43 <@rizen> yes, webgui has been tested for sql injections
01:43 <@rizen> by 2 seperate security companies
01:43 <@rizen> and the two errors they found were fixed
01:44 <@rizen> no it doesn't protect all public fields against XSS, but it does do it where it counts
01:44 <@rizen> i'm not sure how severe the dataform thing is yet, still have to investigate
01:44 <@mdawg> i looked into it.
01:45 <@mdawg> there's no privilege/group security on viewList
01:45 <@rizen> and like i said before, if we decide to do so, making all fields do some basic javascript injection testing is rather trivial
01:45 <@rizen> especially in 6.9
01:45 <@rizen> ok, that's easily fixed matt
01:45 <@rizen> and that has virtually nothing to do with an xss exploit
01:45 <@mdawg> i know.
01:45 < snapcount> shit ballz
01:46 < snapcount> We do not allow IRC, egg drop bots, or anything of the sort on our network. IRC servers are extremely prone to DoS activity. If you are caught running an IRC server inside our network your account will be terminated immediately. This is a pretty common practice in the hosting industry today. The rule is, you can run anything on the server as long as no one can access it via a standard IRC client.
01:46 < snapcount> I guess I can't host the bot
01:47 < snapcount> maybe I can get one of my Novell friends to do it
01:47 <@mdawg> I didn't think irc bots were necessarily irc servers.  i thought they could be client-only
01:47 <@mike_s> anyone want to write a POE based IRC bot? i'll host it on one of our servers
01:48 < snapcount> I'm so lame I don't even know what POE is
01:48 < snapcount> so I guess that counts me out
01:48  * mdawg is a lam3r as well.
01:48 < snapcount> I'll provide moral support
01:48 <@mike_s> http://search.cpan.org/~bingos/POE-Component-IRC-4.77/lib/POE/Component/IRC.pm
01:49 <@rizen> there are already half a dozen poe irc bots
01:49 <@rizen> on the example pages
01:49 < snapcount> brb... I'm gonna hop on efnet and see if someone will take up our cause
01:49 <@mike_s> yep
01:49 <@rizen> incidentally, no i can't host anything related to irc either
01:49 -!- snapcount [n=roy@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has quit []
01:49 <@rizen> 2 of our 7 upstream providers have strict clauses in our contract with them not to do it
01:50 <@mike_s> i'm not aware of any restrictions we have in our data center -- let me double check
01:51 < xdanger> I can, but I'm in finland and don't know that much about bot's... but my irssi is online 24/7 and has some limited autoop functions...
01:51 -!- mode/#webgui [+o xdanger] by mdawg
01:52 <@xdanger> so now I just have to remember how the autoop syntax went =P
02:00 <@rizen> anybody know what language this is:
02:00 <@rizen> http://www.framasoft.net/article3540.html
02:01 <@mdawg> french
02:01 <@xdanger> french
02:01 -!- usepoe712 [n=poebot@64.78.230.164] has joined #webgui
02:01 <@mike_s> that would be my little poe bot
02:01 <@rizen> nice
02:01 <@mike_s> just testing -- and it will be setup to log the conversations
02:01 -!- mode/#webgui [+o usepoe712] by mdawg
02:01 <@xdanger> mdawg: could you leave the channel and come back so that I know that I did this correctly ?
02:02 -!- mdawg [i=user@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has left #webgui []
02:02 -!- mdawg [i=user@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
02:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mdawg] by xdanger
02:02 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
02:02 <@mdawg> nice.
02:02 <@xdanger> 02:02 -!- Friends checked: mdawg
02:02 <@xdanger> 02:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mdawg] by xdanger        
02:02 <@mike_s> here's sample logging fromthe poebot...
02:02 <@mike_s> [mike@mark4 irc_logger]$ ./poebot.pl
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:01:27 2006] <mike_s:#webgui> that would be my little poe bot
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:01:44 2006] <rizen:#webgui> nice
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:01:46 2006] <mike_s:#webgui> just testing -- and it will be setup to log the conversations
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:01:48 2006] <xdanger:#webgui> mdawg: could you leave the channel and come back so that I know that I did this correctly ?
02:02 <@xdanger> don't know how static your host's are, but..
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:02:19 2006] <mdawg:#webgui> nice.
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:02:20 2006] <xdanger:#webgui> 02:02 -!- Friends checked: mdawg
02:02 <@mike_s>  [Tue Jan  3 17:02:20 2006] <xdanger:#webgui> 02:02 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mdawg] by xdanger
02:02 <@mdawg> my ip changes about once a month.
02:03 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by mdawg
02:03 <@crythias> howdy
02:03 <@mike_s> so what does everyone want wiht the logs?
02:04 <@mike_s> emailed once a day to the dev list? posted to a website?
02:04 <@crythias> better not
02:04 <@crythias> :)
02:04 <@mdawg> i dunno.  but I can mail you the entire log for today.
02:04 <@xdanger> just some one adds something to op me so that should be enough
02:04 <@crythias> tyvm
02:04 <@xdanger> generate a funny statistics with pisg
02:04 <@xdanger> =)
02:05 <@crythias> what's new?
02:05 <@mike_s> you missed out on a few of JT's apocolypse's
02:07 <@mike_s> so we decided to start logging this -- thus the poe bot 
02:07 <@mike_s> just needing to decide what to do with the logs
02:07 <@crythias> oh :)
02:07 <@mdawg> nail them to santa clause
02:07 <@mdawg> err
02:07 <@mdawg> mail them to santa
02:07 <@mdawg> just kidding.
02:07 <@crythias> freudian slip? And I didn't think they'd fit you...
02:07 <@mdawg> (I think?)
02:07 <@mdawg> hey :p
02:08 <@xdanger> my irssi also automaticly logs everything...
02:09 <@xdanger> just for your amusement: http://mentalhouse.net/irc/webgui
02:10 <@mike_s> wow - very good random quotes...
02:11 <@mike_s> not putting quesiton marks on anymore
02:12 <@rizen> i like that section below
02:12 <@crythias> that amuses me.
02:12 <@rizen> is mike_s stupid?
02:12 <@rizen> Is mike_s stupid or just asking too many questions? 23.3% lines contained a question!
02:12 <@mike_s> )(*#$) )(*#$)(* #)
02:12 <@mike_s> thanks for picking that up buddy
02:13 <@rizen> hehe
02:13 <@rizen> it also says i talk too much
02:13 <@mdawg> ?
02:13 <@mdawg> ?
02:13 <@mdawg> ?
02:13 <@mike_s> rizen talks to him/herself a lot.
02:13 <@mike_s> ya - i liked that one
02:14 <@xdanger> I'm just wondering how well does our connection scale to US, is it slow ?
02:14 <@mike_s> so xdnager - (not using a question mark but) does your app generate a web page of the log
02:14 <@rizen> it seems quite fast
02:15 <@xdanger> It's mainly finnish and scandinavian and europe, but haven't got a clue about over the atlantic..
02:15 <@mike_s> i'm in canada -- works quite well
02:16 <@xdanger> mike_s: yes, it's a perl script that takes in different kinds of logs and generates configurable statistics =)
02:16 <@xdanger> http://pisg.sourceforge.net/
02:16 <@mike_s> k - if you want to just generate the web page log i'll shut down the little poe bot ...
02:16 <@crythias> wow
02:17 <@xdanger> well, If you want the logs some where I can set up a cronjob to copy them every hour or something like that ?
02:17 <@crythias> well, if it's going to get indexed, I'll throw in http://www.gwy2.org/cgi-bin/fom
02:18 <@rizen> gerald, how's that interview coming?
02:19 <@crythias> awe. darn it. I left it at work. I've been under the weather since my return from my grandmother's funeral.
02:19 <@crythias> I'll be able to get a copy in a sec
02:19 <@rizen> do you need me to send again?
02:19 <@rizen> no
02:19 <@rizen> ok
02:19 <@rizen> apparently snapcount has gotten his friends to set up some sort of a bot as well
02:19 <@rizen> you people are going bot crazy
02:20 <@mdawg> this will be the most well-protected channel on this network.
02:20 <@mdawg> highest bot-person ratio.
02:21 <@mike_s> rot13 hello world
02:21 <@usepoe712> uryyb jbeyq
02:21 <@mike_s> but will there's do rot13? ;)
02:21 <@rizen> we might as well just make the bots talk to each other too
02:21 <@mdawg> rot13 rot13
02:21 <@usepoe712> ebg13
02:21 <@rizen> and decide the features of webgui too
02:21 <@mdawg> lol.
02:21 <@mdawg> might as well.
02:21 -!- mode/#webgui [-o usepoe712] by rizen
02:22 <@mike_s> good plan there
02:22 <@mike_s> i'll shut that one down
02:22 -!- usepoe712 [n=poebot@64.78.230.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:22 <@rizen> the others aren't logged in yet though
02:22 <@mike_s> so demanding...
02:23 -!- usepoe2 [n=poebot@64.78.230.164] has joined #webgui
02:23 <@mike_s> i'll leave it up for a while to keep the channel open, but won't be doing anything with the logs
02:24 <@rizen> could you email the logs to matt every half hour
02:24 <@rizen> the entire days logs though
02:24 <@rizen> just spam the crap out of him
02:24 <@xdanger> http://mentalhouse.net/irc/logs/webgui/
02:25  * mdawg exclaims, "It's a spamity calamity!"
02:26 <@mdawg> i'll blacklist your mail servers' ips with every known ip-based blocklist.
02:26 <@mdawg> (not pb's)
02:26 <@mdawg> whoever spams me :)
02:26 <@xdanger> it's 2:25 am, so I'll head over to my bed, girlfriend and cats...
02:26 <@xdanger> good night ;)
02:27 <@mdawg> 'night.
02:27 <@crythias> gnite
02:27 <@rizen> nite
02:28 <@rizen> or perhaps knight
02:31 <@crythias> working on the interview...
02:31 <@rizen> excellent
02:31 <@rizen> i can't wait to see how these turn out
02:32 <@rizen> i hope people like them
02:35 <@mike_s> what interviews?
02:36 <@rizen> i don't know what you're talking about
02:36 <@rizen> those aren't the droids you're looking for
02:36 <@crythias> you can go about your business.
02:36 <@rizen> move along
02:37 <@mike_s> lol
02:37 <@mike_s> yes Mr Anderson
02:37 <@rizen> i can already see that this channel is going to be a huge time suck
02:37 <@crythias> yes
02:37 <@rizen> i'm going to have to never log in here agian
02:37 <@crythias> it's all matthew's fault.
02:38 <@mdawg> :(
02:38 <@rizen> matt, you're fired
02:38 -!- mdawg [i=user@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"]
02:38 -!- mdawg [i=user@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
02:38 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mdawg] by xdanger
02:39 -!- snapcount [n=roy@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
02:40 < snapcount> our bot should be joining us soon :-)
02:40 <@mike_s> although rizen - some scheduled apocolypses on here could be interesting
02:40 <@mdawg> interactive apocalypses.
02:40 <@mdawg> if only the apostle john had IRC.
02:40 <@mike_s> LOL
02:40 -!- gooey [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
02:41 <@mdawg> welcome, goodoll
02:41 -!- usepoe2 [n=poebot@64.78.230.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:42 <@rizen> it's hard to imagine that interactive apocolypses would be a good thing
02:42 <@rizen> it seems they'd likely make it more confused
02:42 <@rizen> as people ask questions
02:42 <@rizen> etc
02:42 <@rizen> in the middle of me spewing my spiel
02:42 -!- phobia [n=phobia@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #webgui
02:42 <@crythias> I'm scared
02:42 <@mdawg> welcome fearNess.
02:42 -!- mode/#webgui [+o gooey] by rizen
02:43 <@rizen> ok snapcount
02:43 <@rizen> what can we do with this bot
02:43 < snapcount> we're debugging
02:43 < snapcount> it's version 6.x
02:43 < snapcount> haha
02:44 <@mdawg> touche
02:44 < snapcount> we should be at 7.0 shortly
02:44 <@crythias> 6.8.3 and you try to dcc and it forgets where it put the files?
02:44 <@rizen> listen here bitch
02:44 <@rizen> don't make me get out my whiping stick
02:45 <@crythias> :)
02:46 < phobia> *** Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a staffer. Please register! ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )
02:46 < phobia> sad...
02:46 < phobia> soooooooooo very sad...
02:46 < phobia> "free"node
02:46 < phobia> WTFEVAH
02:47 -!- gooey [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
02:47 <@mdawg> hello phobia
02:47 < phobia> hi
02:47 -!- snapcount is now known as gooey
02:48 < gooey> shit
02:48 <@mdawg> whom do you fear, phobia.
02:48 < phobia> you think that my nickname represents what I am, versus what I inspire in the people I meet?
02:49 < gooey> hehe
02:49 -!- mdawg is now known as WebGUI7
02:50 < phobia> if it's fear you want, download & watch this:    http://tinyurl.com/9vklz
02:50 <@WebGUI7> my advent is imminent.
02:50 -!- gooey is now known as WRE
02:51 -!- phobia is now known as stckovrflw
02:51 -!- WRE is now known as snapcount
02:51 <@crythias> grr
02:52 <@WebGUI7> lost you on AIM, gwy
02:53  * crythias nods
02:54 < snapcount> damn freenode
02:54  * WebGUI7 is downloading terror-inspiring flick.  
02:54 < snapcount> we're at 6.9
02:54 < snapcount> hehe
02:55 -!- rizen2 [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
02:55 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen2] by xdanger
02:55 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
02:55 < snapcount> is xdanger a bot?
02:56 -!- rizen2 [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
02:58 -!- WRE [n=WRE@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
02:59 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
02:59 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by xdanger
02:59 <@crythias> xdanger help
02:59 < snapcount> !help
03:00 -!- WRE [n=WRE@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:00 < snapcount> 6.9.1
03:01  * rizen /help
03:01 -!- mike_s [n=mike@s205-206-123-62.ab.hsia.telus.net] has left #webgui ["Leaving"]
03:01 -!- rizen is now known as test
03:01 -!- test is now known as rizen
03:02 <@WebGUI7> mixing you guys, perl, and irc bots is like a bunch of bulls in China.
03:02 <@WebGUI7> I mean.  a China shop.
03:02 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI is the best plumbing monitor software ever made
03:02 < snapcount> we're working on that interactive apocalypse
03:02 <@crythias> nice
03:03 < snapcount> did you guys know this channel name is open on EFNet?
03:03 < snapcount> like 10x's the ppl over there
03:03 <@WebGUI7> I blindly chose from the list of networks when I chose this one.
03:03 < snapcount> hehe
03:03 <@rizen> is that a good thing?
03:03 < snapcount> probably not
03:04 < snapcount> 10 times the retards mucking up our discussions 
03:04 <@rizen> i don't think we necessarily want peeps unrelated to webgui dropping by
03:04  * snapcount reflects on the quality of discussion thus far
03:04 <@rizen> unless this irc channel is a promotional thing
03:04 <@WebGUI7> snapcount, you missed quite a lot.
03:05  * WebGUI7 releases itself early.
03:05 -!- crythias changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI R0X0R$ | visit http://www.gwy2.org/cgi-bin/fom
03:05 < stckovrflw> Efnet is the wild west of IRC
03:05 < stckovrflw> at least, it was at one time
03:05 <@WebGUI7> nice.
03:05 < stckovrflw> I smell fear :P
03:05 <@WebGUI7> url error.
03:05 -!- stckovrflw is now known as phobia
03:06 <@WebGUI7> WebGUI was unable to instantiate your style template.
03:06 <@WebGUI7> at http://www.gwy2.org/cgi-bin/fom.
03:06 <@crythias> I clicked and it worked.
03:06 <@WebGUI7> your client is superior.
03:06 <@rizen> i think webgui needs new error messages
03:07 <@rizen> like, webgui was unable to account for your ineptitude
03:07 <@WebGUI7> LOL
03:07 <@rizen> webgui couldn't overcome your unbearable nature
03:07 <@rizen> webgui can't tollerate ignorance
03:07 <@WebGUI7> webgui can't spell.
03:07 <@rizen> jt can't spell
03:08 <@rizen> perhaps we can add a with-humor = 1 flag to the config file
03:08 <@rizen> that will replace the error messages with humor
03:08 <@WebGUI7> it could be its own language.
03:08 <@WebGUI7> EnglishHumor
03:08 <@crythias> JT.. I will need to send photo under separate cover. acceptable?
03:09 < snapcount> how about
03:09 < snapcount> webgui farts in your general direction
03:09 <@rizen> on april 1 this year
03:09 <@crythias> These aren't the style templates you're looking for.
03:09 <@rizen> i'm going to run the webgui translation through a redneck translator
03:09 < snapcount> LOL
03:09 <@rizen> and release it as a new WebGUI Worldwide member
03:09 < snapcount> hell yeah
03:10  * snapcount screams yee-haw!!! in the spirit
03:10  * WebGUI7 bites something.
03:10 <@rizen> i don't understand gerald, what do you mean under a seperate cover?
03:11 <@crythias> You dum messed sumpin up, boy.
03:11 <@crythias> dun
03:11 <@crythias> Y'all caint do that 'round hyere.
03:12  * WebGUI7 returns "I'm broked!"
03:13 -!- WebGUI7 is now known as ircSucksTime
03:13 <@crythias>  separate email
03:14 <@rizen> k
03:25 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
03:26 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
03:26 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythias] by xdanger
03:26 -!- WRE [n=WRE@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:27 -!- snapcount is now known as gooey
03:28 -!- gooey is now known as snapcount
03:28 -!- snapcount is now known as WRE_
03:28 -!- WRE [n=WRE@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:28 < WRE_> what a pain in the ass
03:29 <@crythias> hrm.
03:29 <@ircSucksTime> what
03:29 <@ircSucksTime> clue me in
03:29 -!- WRE__ [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:29 <@crythias> most used words
03:29 -!- WRE_ is now known as snapcount
03:29 -!- WRE__ is now known as WRE_
03:30 <@crythias> people should think about database using Dataform asset WebGUI because still 
03:32 -!- WRE_ [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:33 <@crythias> IRCUL8R
03:33 < snapcount> we can't initialize the bot until it logs in
03:33 < snapcount> and it we can't log it in until we initialize it
03:33 < snapcount> isn't that a paradox?
03:33 <@crythias> ??
03:34 <@ircSucksTime> can't you spoof it?
03:34 <@ircSucksTime> log in using another prog.
03:34 <@ircSucksTime> same ident, etc.
03:34 <@ircSucksTime> same machine
03:34 <@crythias> initialize it in a different #channel?
03:34 < phobia> the ye olde gaytownne irc network you have chosen
03:35 <@ircSucksTime> roy, do you have a webgui business?
03:35 < snapcount> yeah
03:35 <@ircSucksTime> oh yeah; oceansview
03:35 <@crythias> ok
03:36 < snapcount> no
03:36 <@ircSucksTime> ?
03:36 < snapcount> we can't message it b/c freenode won't allow dcc unless you're registered
03:36 < snapcount> and we have to dcc it to initialize it
03:36 < snapcount> and we can't tell it how to login until it's initialized
03:37 <@crythias> you can't message under the bot's name?
03:38 < snapcount> the bot can't message me back until it's logged in
03:38 < snapcount> I think we found a script that will do it
03:38 <@crythias> register the bot under the bot's name?
03:38 < snapcount> when it joins the channel
03:38 < snapcount> we did
03:38 < snapcount> we can't get the bot to type the command to identify it's self
03:38 < snapcount> but we think we found a script that will do so
03:39 <@crythias> don't you have console method of running the bot?
03:39 < snapcount> tune in at 11
03:39 < snapcount> yeah
03:39 < snapcount> but not until you initialize it
03:39 < snapcount> it will just ignore you
03:39 < snapcount> hehe
03:39 <@crythias> that's what I encountered.
03:39 < snapcount> oh
03:39 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:40 <@crythias> shouldn't ignore you from YOUR console.
03:41 < snapcount> you mean the cmd line of the server running the bot?
03:42 <@crythias> yeah
03:42 < snapcount> hmmm
03:42 < snapcount> not sure
03:42 < snapcount> let me see if we can do that
03:42 < snapcount> it's an eggdrop bot
03:42 <@crythias> yeah
03:43 < snapcount> do you know how to do that?
03:43 <@crythias> one second
03:43 < snapcount> command to make the bot say "/msg nickserv ident password"
03:43 < snapcount> we need it to say that
03:43 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
03:43 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:44 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:44 < snapcount> we found a way
03:44 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
03:44 < snapcount> with telnet
03:44 <@ircSucksTime> who is we
03:45 < snapcount> phobia
03:45 <@ircSucksTime> who is phobia
03:45 < snapcount> friend of mine from #novell on efnet
03:45 <@ircSucksTime> oh; i see.
03:45 <@ircSucksTime> sry phobia.
03:45 < snapcount> runs a bunch of bots
03:45 <@ircSucksTime> downloading (from ed2k) that movie you linked.
03:45 < snapcount> I gave him free WG hosting in exchange for our bot
03:45 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:45 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
03:46 < snapcount> who does webguibot belong to?
03:46 <@ircSucksTime> the enemy.
03:46 <@crythias> me
03:46 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:46 < snapcount> cool
03:46 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:46 < snapcount> we'll have more bots than people
03:47 < snapcount> I welcome our new IRC bot overlords
03:47 <@rizen> i'll do your bidding my master
03:47 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:47 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:51 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:52 -!- phobia [n=phobia@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit ["Create like a God, Command like a King, Work like a Slave <k!15b8>"]
03:52 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
03:53 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:53 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
03:55 <@crythias> heh
03:55 <@crythias> that kinda worked
03:55 <@crythias> hello
03:55 <@crythias> webguibot hello
03:56 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:56 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
03:56 <@crythias> I got eggdrop to work. sorta.
03:56 <@crythias> at least I got it to create the user file.
03:56 < WRE> hohoho
03:56 < WRE> phear
03:56 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit]
03:57 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
03:58 -!- crythias is now known as webguibo1
03:58 -!- webguibo1 is now known as crythias
04:00 -!- webguibot [n=webguibo@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
04:05 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
04:06 -!- WRE [n=gooey@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
04:10 < WRE> hmmm
04:10 < WRE> blah
04:11 -!- phobia [n=phobia@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #webgui
04:12 < WRE> whee
04:12 < WRE> ops!
04:12 < WRE> plz?  :)
04:12 <@crythias> for whom?
04:13 < snapcount> for the bot
04:13 <@crythias> right. gimme a nick.
04:13 < snapcount> WRE
04:13 -!- mode/#webgui [+o WRE] by crythias
04:13 -!- mode/#webgui [+t] by WRE
04:15 < snapcount> &op
04:21 < snapcount> &op
04:21 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
04:21 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by WRE
04:21 < snapcount> nice
04:21 < snapcount> we get the fucker working
04:22 < snapcount> and I break it
04:22 < snapcount> &op
04:25 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
04:31 -!- snapcount [n=roy@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
04:32 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
04:36 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
04:36 <@WRE> TAKEOVER
04:36 <@WRE> muuhaha
04:37 <@snapcount> .wx
04:37 < phobia> !bofh
04:37 <@WRE> BOFH Quick-excuse: Password is too complex to decrypt
04:37 < phobia> !bash
04:37 <@WRE> |bash 96| <VIVI> Xbox already has the following games:
04:37 <@WRE> |bash 96| <VIVI> Microsoft Word
04:37 <@WRE> |bash 96| <VIVI> Microsoft Excel
04:37 <@WRE> |bash 96| <VIVI> Solitaire 
04:37 < phobia> !exchange $1 eur usd
04:38 < phobia> !gb george orwell nineteen eighty four
04:38 <@snapcount> !exchange $1 eur usd
04:39 <@crythias> !bash
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <achan> DigDug: 'ascetic' is maybe the word you're looking for
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <DigDug> ascetic?
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <DigDug> I don't know such a word. :/
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <achan> someone who lives a monastic life outside of a monestary
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <DigDug> Ahh.
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <DigDug> Is there a term for someone who lives a monastic life on the Internet?
04:39 <@WRE> |bash 462| <Medieval> yes, e-scetic. 
04:40  * crythias shakes his head
04:40 <@snapcount> !g webgui
04:42 <@ircSucksTime> HELO
04:42 <@snapcount> hello WRE
04:42 <@ircSucksTime> oh no.
04:42 <@ircSucksTime> not bash.
04:43 <@snapcount> !g webgui
04:43 <@WRE> <img src=/nav_page.gif width=16 height=2 @ /search?q=webgui&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&start=10&sa=N 
04:43 <@ircSucksTime> lol.
04:43 < phobia> !gb george orwell nineteen eighty four
04:44 < phobia> !exchange $1 usd cad
04:44 <@WRE> $1 U.S. Dollar makes 1.1561 Canadian Dollar.
04:44 < phobia> !horoscope scorpio
04:44 <@WRE> Scorpio; <span id="intelliTxt">The stars are telling you that it's time to get away from it all. Even if that just means a hot bath behind a locked bathroom door, make some kind of attempt to get some private time for relaxation.</span>
04:44 < phobia> woo complete with html tags
04:44 <@snapcount> shiney!
04:45 <@snapcount> .wx Daytona Beach, FL.
04:46 <@snapcount> &kick phobia
04:46 -!- phobia was kicked from #WebGUI by WRE [Requested by snapcount]
04:46 -!- phobia [n=phobia@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has joined #WebGUI
04:46 < phobia> heh
04:46 -!- ircSucksTime is now known as self
04:47 <@self> &kick self
04:47 <@self> dangit.
04:47 <@snapcount> haha
04:47 < phobia> !seen self
04:47 <@WRE> phobia, self is right here!
04:47 < phobia> !lastspoke self
04:47 <@WRE> self last uttered a word on #webgui less than a minute ago.
04:48 < phobia> !seen my ass
04:48 <@WRE> phobia, I don't remember seeing my.
04:48 < phobia> bah
04:48 <@self> !seen myHead
04:48 <@WRE> self, I don't remember seeing myhead.
04:48  * crythias loves self.
04:49 <@self> crythias: can we get it to play the funny license plate game
04:51 <@snapcount> what is the funny license plate game?
04:51 <@self> crythias?  
04:51 <@self> that's your cue.
04:52 <@crythias> sorry
04:52 <@crythias> someone's having problems installing wg
04:53 <@self> um; that never happens.
04:53 <@crythias> IM2SXY
04:53 <@crythias> testCodebase.pl doesn't see dsn. why?
04:53 <@snapcount> no WG config
04:54 <@snapcount> or incorrect config
04:55 <@crythias> NO2HARD
04:56 -!- cluge [n=aaron@rrcs-24-73-239-166.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #webgui
04:56 <@crythias> hi
04:56 < cluge> hello
04:56 <@crythias> 21:46:41) Cluge1669: Let me give you some quick background
04:56 <@crythias> 1. I've been using web GUI for years, installed it at least 30 times.  (From the 4 series on up)
04:56 <@crythias> 2. The server is basically a RH 9 box with serveral udpate
04:56 <@crythias> apache 2.0.54
04:56 <@crythias> perl 5.8.0
04:56 <@crythias> mysql 5.0.18
04:56 <@crythias> webgui latest verision
04:56 < cluge> thats me
04:56 <@crythias> ok - that won't be too painful to udpate
04:56 <@crythias> The problem is that it's not even connecting to the SQL server.  It's as if the DSN isn't correct, or that it can't read the config file (which it can)
04:57 <@crythias> nssgerald: any error messages?
04:57 <@crythias> (21:50:27) Cluge1669: yeah - when running testCodebase.pl :Can't connect to data source , no database driver specified and DBI_DSN env var not set a
04:57 <@crythias> (21:50:43) nssgerald: ok
04:58 <@crythias> so... self?
04:58 <@self> what
04:58 <@crythias> can you help?
04:58 < cluge> any idears on my problem?
04:58 <@crythias> I don't know what to check.
04:58 <@crythias> cluge: is this a new install?
04:59 < cluge> it is for this version of webgui
04:59 < cluge> I'm also running an older 5.8.1 useing speedy CGI on the same box
04:59 <@self> hold on 2 sec
04:59 < cluge> I've run several concurrent webguis even with different versions in the past without issue
05:00 <@self> what's the exact command you're typing to run testCodebase
05:00 <@crythias> the new one require major changes to httpd.conf
05:00 < cluge> perl testCodebase.pl --configFile /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/etc/www2
05:00 <@self> no .conf??
05:00 <@self> I think it needs it.
05:01 < cluge> yeah, thats why I'm running the old with speedy CGI, so it won't interfere with mod perl
05:01 < cluge> no .conf
05:01 <@snapcount> doesn't your config file end in .conf?
05:01 < cluge> ok, will change the name and update index.pl
05:01 <@crythias> yeah. the parser looks for .conf's.
05:01 < cluge> stand by
05:01 <@crythias> index.pl is useless in 6.8.3
05:01 <@self> index.pl shouldn't exist in 6.8.3
05:02 < cluge> ok.....
05:02 < cluge> just use the pre init in the httpd.conf?
05:03 <@self> preload.perl, you mean?
05:03 < cluge> PerlInitHandler WebGUI
05:03 <@self> oh yeah.  no wre.
05:03 <@self> hold on
05:03 -!- phobia [n=phobia@66-46-142-242.amtelecom.net] has quit ["Create like a God, Command like a King, Work like a Slave <k!15b8>"]
05:04 <@self> familiar tagline.
05:04 <@snapcount> yeah...
05:04 <@snapcount> that's the old one
05:04 <@snapcount> he's rejecting realities now a days
05:04 <@self> yeah.
05:04 <@crythias> Poit
05:04 <@self> Nark.
05:04 <@snapcount> so our bot is now at 7.0
05:04 <@self> Narf.
05:05 <@crythias> Egads
05:05 <@snapcount> !bash
05:05 <@WRE> |bash 2680| ~ frOsty- giggles.. in a manly, tesrosterone-filled sort of way. 
05:05 <@self> cluge:
05:05 <@self> do you have this in httpd.conf? 
05:05 <@self> PerlSetVar WebguiRoot /data/WebGUI
05:05 <@self> PerlRequire /data/wre/prereqs/apache/conf/startup.pl
05:05 <@self> PerlCleanupHandler Apache2::SizeLimit
05:05 <@self> PerlRequire /data/WebGUI/sbin/preload.perl
05:06 <@self> you don't necessarily need the SizeLimit
05:06 <@self> (with adjusted paths)
05:06 <@crythias> woe
05:06 <@self> and
05:06 <@self> Alias /extras /data/WebGUI/www/extras
05:07 <@crythias> Chapelle Show doing spot on Matrix parity.
05:07 < cluge> yeah looking now
05:07 <@self> parody?
05:07 <@crythias> yeah. that, too.
05:07 < cluge> the perl Require is new
05:07 <@snapcount> self: you can run 6.8.x concurrent with older versions?
05:07 < cluge> to me that is
05:08 <@self> here's my startup.pl
05:08 < cluge> remember I'm running the old version with speedy CGI
05:08 <@self> for reference.
05:08 <@crythias> yeah. the gotcha.txt is a must read.
05:08 <@self> actually; startup.pl is unneeded for you too.
05:08 <@self> just preload.perl is needed.
05:09 < cluge> well web server restarted without too much bitching
05:09 < cluge> stand by
05:09 < cluge> nope - falls back to default test page, and of course :)  perl testCodebase.pl --configFile /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/etc/www2 provides the same error as before
05:10 <@self> did you add the .conf?
05:10 < cluge> err  perl testCodebase.pl --configFile /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/etc/www2.conf now :P
05:10 <@self> k :p
05:10 <@self> did you try testEnvironment.pl
05:10 <@self> b/c testCodebase is for developers testing stuff.
05:10 < cluge> totally clean
05:11 <@self> testCodebase can be destructive to your db.
05:11 <@self> clean?
05:11 < cluge> yeah, I peaked in the testCodebase, and at least it gives me a little more enlightening errors
05:11 <@self> all okay
05:11 < cluge> clean - as in all OK
05:11 <@self>      --configFile          The config file of the WebGUI site you'll use
05:11 <@self>                     to test the codebase. Note that you should not
05:11 <@self>                     use a production config file as some tests may
05:11 <@self>                     be destructive.
05:13 <@self> um
05:13 <@self> what webgui version is your site db
05:13 < cluge> this is a fresh install
05:13 <@self> oh ok.
05:14 <@self> default create.sql
05:14 < cluge> Yep
05:14 <@self> ignore the results of the testCodebase
05:14 <@self> did testEnvironment.pl find your config file?
05:15 <@self> oh, of course not.
05:15 <@self> b/c your config file isn't under
05:15 < cluge> no I changed the testEnvironment path so that it could find it :)
05:15 <@self> oh ok.
05:16 <@self> just to confirm
05:17 < cluge> yep
05:17 <@self> does testEnvironment output "Verifying database connection"
05:17 < cluge> yes
05:18 < cluge> which is why my forehead hurts
05:18  * self is installing 2005 Dec 02 Longhorn Server build 5270.
05:18 <@self> on a virtual machine.
05:18  * cluge is sorry for self
05:18  * cluge likes his puns
05:18 -!- self is now known as self_
05:19 -!- self_ is now known as freenodeAdmin
05:19 <@freenodeAdmin> anyway.
05:19 <@freenodeAdmin> okay.
05:20 <@freenodeAdmin> did you add the PerlInitHandler line?
05:20 < cluge> yes
05:20 <@freenodeAdmin> paste the vhost
05:21 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has quit []
05:22 <@freenodeAdmin> here's mine.
05:22 < cluge> <VirtualHost 209.208.36.150:80>
05:22 < cluge>         ServerName www2.flaglermoms.com
05:22 < cluge>         DocumentRoot /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/www
05:22 < cluge>         Alias /extras /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/WebGUI/www/extras
05:22 < cluge>         SetHandler perl-script
05:22 < cluge>         PerlInitHandler WebGUI
05:22 < cluge>         PerlSetVar WebguiConfig www2.conf
05:22 < cluge>         PerlRequire /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/WebGUI/sbin/preload.perl
05:22 < cluge>         ErrorLog /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/logs/error_log
05:22 < cluge>         CustomLog /var/www/www2.flaglermoms.com/logs/access_log combined
05:22 < cluge> </VirtualHost>
05:22 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
05:22 < cluge> BAH
05:22 < cluge> I see the f&*@#&*@* problem
05:22 < cluge> brb
05:23 <@freenodeAdmin> your conf file really needs to be in $webguiRoot.'../etc/'
05:23 <@freenodeAdmin> crythias: see the problem with not using /data/ ? ;p
05:24 <@crythias> wow
05:24 <@freenodeAdmin> crythias: j/k
05:24 <@crythias> and why is webgui under a domain instead ...
05:24 < cluge> yeah
05:24 < cluge> no worries
05:24 < cluge> works like a charm now
05:24 <@freenodeAdmin> oh good.
05:24 < cluge> the problem was simple
05:25 <@freenodeAdmin> what was it.
05:25 < cluge> I had 2 different perl preloads
05:25 < snapcount> &op
05:25 < cluge> one that I thought was commetted out wasn't
05:25 < cluge> the comment was one line off
05:25 <@crythias> oops
05:25 <@freenodeAdmin> so you have 6.8.3 up and running?
05:25 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
05:25 < cluge> Yes
05:25 <@freenodeAdmin> Congratulations!
05:25 < cluge> looks like a small path issue with extras
05:25 <@freenodeAdmin> the installation is not trivial.
05:25 < cluge> but I can fix that
05:25  * crythias does a fancy dance.
05:26  * freenodeAdmin quotes from /home.
05:26 < cluge> I've done it so many times, that when this one stuck me, I thought I was going crazy
05:26 <@crythias> FNC DNCR
05:26 <@freenodeAdmin> NUD DNCR
05:26 <@crythias> ITZABOY
05:27 <@crythias> HUZLINE
05:27 <@freenodeAdmin> STRCHMRKS
05:28 <@snapcount> SKIDMRK
05:28 <@freenodeAdmin> BASHQUOT
05:28 < cluge> ok thank you guys
05:28 <@crythias> :)
05:28 < cluge> I'll go finish the rest of it
05:28 <@freenodeAdmin> have fun
05:28 <@snapcount> may the force be with you
05:28 < cluge> guess I just needed to have a second set of eyes
05:28 <@freenodeAdmin> FORCEME
05:28 <@crythias> Peace and long life
05:28 <@snapcount> hehe
05:29 <@snapcount> live long and prosper
05:29 <@freenodeAdmin> PERLDOC
05:29 < cluge> Live long and prosper - AND - may you live in interesting times
05:29 <@crythias> PODWRTR
05:29 <@snapcount> whoa
05:29 <@crythias> 2DA GD 2DI
05:30 <@freenodeAdmin> 2GA4U
05:30 <@crythias> ^URTYPE
05:31 <@freenodeAdmin> BUTT ER  ?
05:31 <@crythias> PARKAY
05:31 <@freenodeAdmin> MARYKAY
05:32 <@freenodeAdmin> MILKME
05:32 <@snapcount> BUTT RKT
05:32 <@snapcount> (.wmv)
05:32 <@crythias> TIMWSTR
05:32 <@crythias> or .. TYMWSTR
05:32 <@freenodeAdmin> IRC LRKR
05:32 <@snapcount> BUNGHLE
05:33 <@freenodeAdmin> aw; c'mon; they've gotta get by the censors.
05:33 <@freenodeAdmin> so there have to be 2 meanings.
05:33 <@freenodeAdmin> plausible deniability.
05:33 <@snapcount> !g bunghole
05:33 <@WRE> Google Book Search @ http://books.google.com/books?q=bunghole&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wp 
05:33 <@crythias> TPS RPRT
05:33 <@snapcount> it's where the whiskey comes out of
05:33 <@snapcount> duh
05:33 <@crythias> yeah
05:34 <@freenodeAdmin> oh.
05:34 <@freenodeAdmin> didn't know.
05:34 <@crythias> Wizard of Id
05:34 <@snapcount> BUNG PLG
05:34 <@freenodeAdmin> there you go.
05:34 <@snapcount> (that stops the whiskey from coming out)
05:34 <@freenodeAdmin> obviously.
05:34 <@crythias> FUJ STPR
05:34 <@crythias> too bad?
05:34 <@freenodeAdmin> ENMA BAG
05:35 <@snapcount> gross
05:35 <@freenodeAdmin> yeah.
05:35 <@snapcount> that crossed the line
05:35 <@crythias> KLOSTME
05:35  * freenodeAdmin ashamedly backs back over the line.
05:35 <@snapcount> nice
05:35 <@snapcount> MR HNKY
05:36 <@crythias> XMASPOO
05:37 <@crythias> COF A LNG
05:38 <@crythias> SNZN WZN
05:38 <@freenodeAdmin> PPING TOM
05:38 <@snapcount> CRCH ROT
05:40 <@freenodeAdmin> LONRWIFE
05:40 <@crythias> VOYEUR
05:41 <@freenodeAdmin> DOCBRWN
05:41 <@freenodeAdmin> OUTTATIME
05:41 <@crythias> BTTF123
05:41 <@crythias> FLUXCAP
05:41 <@snapcount> DBL HELX
05:41 <@crythias> EINSTIN
05:42 <@crythias> GENETICS
05:42 <@freenodeAdmin> MSFT HTR
05:42 <@crythias> I CLONE U
05:43 <@snapcount> U CLNE ME
05:43 <@crythias> WMF VIRII
05:43 <@crythias> I'm schizophrenic... and so am I.
05:44 <@crythias> I got fired at my job at an OJ factory. I couldn't concentrate.
05:44 <@crythias> I got fired at my job at a doorknob factory. Couldn't get a handle on it.
05:45 <@crythias> Then there was the fire hydrant factory. Didn't know where to park.
05:46 <@crythias> What did the grape say when the elephant sat on it? Nothing. it just let out a little wine.
05:51 <@freenodeAdmin> topic WebGUI vs. WebPhooey
05:53 <@crythias> php is SO much faster
05:53 <@crythias> and everyone else is doing it!
06:06 <@freenodeAdmin> php is the bomb.
06:06 <@freenodeAdmin> la BOMBA
06:12 <@freenodeAdmin> U8BOOGR
06:14 <@freenodeAdmin> SMSHBROS
06:17 <@freenodeAdmin> PPLEATR
06:19 <@freenodeAdmin> NCROPHIL
06:19 <@freenodeAdmin> you still there, cluge?
06:25 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
06:25 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by xdanger
06:25 <@rizen> how many bots do we have on here?
06:29 <@snapcount> at least one million
06:29 <@snapcount> give or take 999,998
06:30 <@snapcount> !bash
06:30 <@WRE> |bash 4198| <RevQuixo> i want a mario game where you do actual plumbing
06:30 <@WRE> |bash 4198| <RevQuixo> oh, did i mention i was gay? 
06:30 <@rizen> it's funny the number of people then that are just squatting here
06:30 <@snapcount> I think there are two bots
06:30 <@rizen> i wonder if that's true for the irc channels of other projects
06:30 <@snapcount> the rest are real
06:30 <@rizen> !bat
06:30 <@rizen> !bash
06:30 <@WRE> |bash 7005| <Rikhei> I am *not* a pricktease
06:30 <@WRE> |bash 7005| <K`shandra> oh - you follow through.  Okay. ;-) 
06:30 <@rizen> !bang
06:30 <@freenodeAdmin> !bash
06:30 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <skatoni> will some one please help
06:30 <@rizen> so what is special about bash
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <shev> ya?
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <skatoni> there is a guy hacking into my computer
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <shev> unplug your modem
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <skatoni> how?
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <shev> see those wires behind your computer?
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| <shev> rip'em all out
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7065| *** skatoni has quit IRC (Read error to skatoni[ppp012.rosenet.net]: Connection reset by peer) 
06:31 <@freenodeAdmin> !bash
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7526| <Cerebus> when i go on a rampage killing all women on the planet, i'll spare you
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7526| <yunicus> yer a dear heart
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7526| <yunicus> really
06:31 <@WRE> |bash 7526| <yunicus> please leave me with a bunch of stinky men 
06:31 <@snapcount> !gg webgui support
06:31 <@WRE> Webgui error: Unexpected Error: Shutti @ http://groups.google.com/group/alt.satellite.direcpc/browse_thread/thread/2b8af6a8fbaa12b8 | Bug#139749: preliminary webgui package @ http://groups.google.com/group/linux.debian.bugs.dist/browse_thread/thread/a19e27b73171c21e | Opinions sought: PHP+MySQL CMS @ http://groups.google.com/group/aus.computers.linux/browse_thread/thread/e0b172cfad7c47e8 
06:31 <@snapcount> !seen rizen
06:31 <@WRE> snapcount, rizen is right here!
06:32 <@rizen> !seen snapcount
06:32 <@WRE> rizen, snapcount is right here!
06:32 <@rizen> !seen mdawg
06:32 <@WRE> rizen, I don't remember seeing mdawg.
06:32 <@rizen> !seen perlDreamer
06:32 <@rizen> oop, i killed him
06:32 <@snapcount> he doesn't know you
06:32 <@rizen> !seen me
06:32 <@WRE> rizen, I don't remember seeing me.
06:32 <@snapcount> you pissed him off by asking so many questions
06:33 <@rizen> !seen perlDreamer
06:33 <@rizen> he just doesn't like me asking about perlDreamer
06:33 <@rizen> !seen perldreamer
06:33 <@snapcount> !horoscope aquarius
06:33 <@WRE> Aquarius; <span id="intelliTxt">No matter how tempting, don't succumb to shopping sprees, second helpings or any other temptations that you know you'll have to pay for later. You're not the best judge of what's good for you right now.</span>
06:33 <@rizen> !seen mother
06:33 <@WRE> rizen, I don't remember seeing mother.
06:33 <@rizen> !help
06:33 <@rizen> !man
06:34 <@rizen> how do i get a command list?
06:34 <@snapcount> "/msg WRE help"
06:34 <@rizen> i can't /msg
06:34 <@rizen> at least not with this client
06:34 <@snapcount> really?
06:34 <@snapcount> what client?
06:35 <@rizen> it's an IM client
06:35 <@rizen> that happens to also connect to irc
06:35 <@rizen> it's called Fire
06:35 <@snapcount> at least the name doesn't suck
06:35 <@rizen> it's pretty cool for most things
06:35 <@rizen> just not very good at irc
06:35 <@snapcount> ahh
06:35 <@rizen> i can do some basic stuff
06:35 <@rizen> with irc
06:36 <@rizen> i can click on my own name
06:36  * rizen can emote
06:36  * rizen can change nick
06:36  * rizen can change topic
06:36  * rizen can kick
06:36  * rizen promote/demote
06:36 <@rizen> etc
06:37 <@rizen> but can't do any other /commands
06:37 <@rizen> if it's not available through right clicking
06:37 <@rizen> then it's not available
06:37 <@snapcount> ahh
06:37 <@rizen> cool
06:37 <@rizen> it has text to speech
06:37 <@rizen> i just enabled it
06:38 <@rizen> so it now tells me whatever you say
06:38 <@freenodeAdmin> he killed Kenny
06:38 <@snapcount> you are gay
06:38 -!- mode/#webgui [+v WRE] by rizen
06:39 <@rizen> this rocks
06:39 <@rizen> i can have it read back the entire log to me
06:39 <@snapcount> "Four score and seven years ago..."
06:40 <@snapcount> well, I'm still learning this bot
06:40 <@rizen> !swear
06:40 <@snapcount> "!g something" will do a google search for something
06:40 <@rizen> !g cars
06:40 <@snapcount> "!gg" google groups
06:40 <@WRE> Advanced Search @ /url?sa=U&start=1&si=0&oi=smap&q=http://www.cars.com/go/search/advanced_search.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&aff=national | Google Book Search @ http://books.google.com/books?q=cars&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wp 
06:41 <@snapcount> "!gb" google books
06:41 <@snapcount> .wx will do weather
06:41 <@snapcount> but it's broken right now
06:41 <@snapcount> it will op people, kick them, ban them, etc
06:42 <@snapcount> !traffic
06:44 <@rizen> !traffic
06:44 <@rizen> .wx
06:44 <@rizen> !wx
06:44 <@rizen> !kill snapcount
06:44 <@rizen> !kick snapcount
06:44 <@rizen> !fuck snapcount
06:46 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@199.107.160.242] has joined #webgui
06:47 < perlDreamer> mighty quiet tonight
06:47 <@snapcount> &kick rizen
06:47 -!- rizen was kicked from #WebGUI by WRE [Requested by snapcount]
06:47 <@snapcount> this is great
06:48 <@snapcount> &chaninfo
06:50 <@snapcount> &info
06:50 <@snapcount> !info
06:51 -!- perlDreamer [n=colink@199.107.160.242] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"]
06:58 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
06:58 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by xdanger
06:58 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
06:58 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
06:58 -!- mode/#webgui [-o snapcount] by rizen
06:58 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
06:58 <@rizen> &kick snapcount
06:58 <@rizen> doood
06:58 <@rizen> this bot sux
06:59 <@snapcount> it doesn't listen to you
06:59 <@snapcount> I don't know how to make it listen to you is the funny part
06:59 <@snapcount> we should set our bots to fight one another
06:59 <@snapcount> robot warz
07:00 <@crythias>  /msg nickserv register <password>
07:00 <@snapcount> random?
07:01 <@crythias> JT: ask snapcount. msg is turned off by default.
07:01 <@snapcount> I'm so lost right now
07:01 <@crythias> sorry
07:01 <@crythias> it was phobia
07:01 <@crythias> phobia: *** Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a staffer. Please register! ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )
07:02 <@snapcount> oh 
07:02 <@snapcount> you can turn that off
07:02 <@snapcount> "/msg nickserv unfiltered on"
07:02 <@snapcount> no quotes
07:02 <@crythias> JT was saying that the /msg didn't work....
07:02 <@snapcount> oh
07:02 <@snapcount> that's his client
07:02 <@snapcount> it sux0rz
07:02 <@crythias> don't know. my /msg isn't working on gaim, either.
07:03 <@snapcount> he's using Mac earth wind and fire or something
07:03 <@crythias> Fire.
07:03 <@crythias> I heard that there is another adium or something that is better.??
07:03 <@snapcount> I know zero about mac
07:04 <@snapcount> except that it runs on top of a BSD variant
07:04 <@snapcount> which makes it a little cool
07:05 <@WRE> I didn't get a control panel for christmas <tear>
07:05 <@rizen> yeah, i'm using fire
07:05 <@freenodeAdmin> "...mommy and daddy.... are mad..."
07:05 <@rizen> i was using adium
07:05 <@WRE> JT is mean to me
07:06 <@rizen> did you make the bot cry?
07:06 <@WRE> I'm not crying
07:06 <@WRE> Would you like to play a game?
07:06 <@crythias> gnite.
07:06 <@freenodeAdmin> game
07:07 <@WRE> How about a nice game of Tic-Tac-Toe?
07:07 <@crythias> Let's play globalthermonuclear war
07:07 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
07:07 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Gnite."]
07:07 <@snapcount> he's desperately searching for a client that doesn't suck
07:15 <@snapcount> !seen rizen
07:15 <@WRE> rizen (n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net) was last seen parting #WebGUI 7 minutes ago stating "{}".
07:16 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has left #webgui []
07:17 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
07:17 < snapcount> &op
07:17 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
07:19 <@freenodeAdmin> !bash 117002
07:19 <@WRE> |bash| <YuFFie> SO U HACKING ME THEN HUH
07:19 <@WRE> |bash| <YuFFie> WElL I GOT NEWS FOR U MISTER I GOT MORE FIREWALL POWERS NOW SO IM SECURE AND IM USING WINDOWS 98 SO IM REALLY SECURE FROM HACKERS LIKE YOU SO YOU BETTA JUST GIVE UP CUZ U GOT NO HOPE MISTER.
07:19 <@WRE> |bash| * YuFFie (~mirc@3B942731.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) Quit (Quit: Owned.)
07:19 <@WRE> |bash| * YuFFie (~mirc@3B942731.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) has joined #
07:19 <@WRE> |bash| <YuFFie> HELP MY MOUSE IS MOVING BY IT SELF 
07:21 <@freenodeAdmin> !bash 580162
07:21 <@WRE> !bash: quote has too many lines to display in public channel (max 12, quote has 23): sending as privmsg instead
07:26 <@snapcount> !find myBallz
07:26 <@snapcount> !seen myBallz
07:26 <@WRE> snapcount, I don't remember seeing myballz.
07:27 <@snapcount> !seen yourBallz
07:27 <@WRE> snapcount, I don't remember seeing yourballz.
07:31 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has quit []
08:30 -!- freenodeAdmin [i=user@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
09:07 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
09:07 -!- mode/#webgui [+o rizen] by xdanger
09:08 -!- rizen changed the topic of #webgui to: WebGUI Discussion
09:08 -!- rizen [n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #webgui []
09:25 -!- lonki_home is now known as lonki
09:31 < lonki> morning
09:56 -!- Minminq [n=marc@host1.procolix.nl] has joined #webgui
09:57 -!- Minminq [n=marc@host1.procolix.nl] has left #webgui []
09:57 -!- Minminq [n=marc@host1.procolix.nl] has joined #webgui
10:02 -!- Minminq [n=marc@host1.procolix.nl] has left #webgui []
10:49 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
10:50 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
10:55 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
11:12 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"]
11:13 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
13:11 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
13:42 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
13:43 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
14:46 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
14:46 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
15:06 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
15:06 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
15:40 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
15:40 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
15:43 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
15:43 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
16:12 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
16:12 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has left #webgui []
16:18 -!- bbwwicci [n=bbwdii@CPE-65-31-211-163.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #webgui
16:20 -!- bbwwicci is now known as mdawg
16:23 -!- crythias [n=gyoung@64.200.2.35] has joined #webgui
16:23 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #webgui
16:23 < mdawg> ah, the usual suspects arrive.
16:24 < crythias> COF COF
16:25 < mdawg> HIC CUP
16:26 < mdawg> xbox 360 was hacked.
16:27 < mdawg> they'll have bootable linux DVDR5 iso's making the net rounds within a week or two.
16:27 < lonki> what else is new? it's microsoft :-)
16:27  * lonki runs
16:27 < lonki> good morning 
16:27 < mdawg> hello.
16:28 <@xdanger> good afternoon =)
16:28 -!- mode/#webgui [+oo crythias mdawg] by xdanger
16:28 -!- Irssi: #webgui: Total of 7 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
16:29 -!- zmk [n=zaphod@dsl46-47.uninet.ee] has joined #webgui
16:31 -!- zmk [n=zaphod@dsl46-47.uninet.ee] has quit [Client Quit]
16:32 <@mdawg> anyone know how to tell mirc to show timestamps?
16:33 <@mdawg> and no, i won't rtfm.
16:58 <@crythias> don't know. don't care. Gaim does.
17:03 < lonki> what is mirc?
17:05 <@mdawg> nm
17:12 < lenthamen> hello all. 
17:12 < lenthamen> I believe there's no game console that isn't hacked already ;)
17:13 < lenthamen> gaim rulez
17:14 < lenthamen> lonki: Do you have a WebGUI install on Mac available right now ? 
17:15 < lonki> lenthamen, not now, I'm still in Almere :-)
17:16 < lonki> But yes, I do have one running at home
17:16 < lenthamen> lonki: Ok, because I was interested if the memory leak I have is reproducable on mac OS.
17:17 < lenthamen> As macOS is derived from BSD.
17:17 < lonki> I can test that tonight
17:18 < lonki> since I cannot ssh into that workstation, only my server
17:18 < lenthamen> ok.
17:20 < lonki> lenthamen, it is weird though, we had simular probs on linux
17:20 < lenthamen> Which kernel ?
17:21 < lonki> let me check, I though the 2.4.x
17:22 < lonki> Linux webgui 2.4.21-32.EL
17:23 < lenthamen> I'm running 2.6.9-22.ELsmp and I can't reproduce it on that box
17:24 < lonki> I will try it at home later today
17:24 < lenthamen> ok
17:42  * lonki submits a new bug
17:50 < lonki> lenthamen, will you be online tonight? I can test it somewhere around 21:00 our time
17:51 < lonki> I'm off, going home, laterzzzz
17:51 -!- lonki is now known as lonki_home
18:31 -!- mike_s [n=mike@s205-206-123-62.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #webgui
18:31 -!- mode/#webgui [+o mike_s] by xdanger
18:35 -!- onioncoder [n=mike@s205-206-123-62.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #webgui
18:35 -!- mode/#webgui [+o onioncoder] by xdanger
18:35 -!- mike_s [n=mike@s205-206-123-62.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:49  * lenthamen has finished his working day and goes home.
18:49 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has joined #webgui
18:50 -!- mode/#webgui [+o snapcount] by WRE
18:50 -!- lenthamen [n=len@82-148-208-20.fiber.unet.nl] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"]
19:55 <@mdawg> snapcount
19:59 <@snapcount> yes
20:03 -!- macOnki [n=hanswolt@lonki.xs4all.nl] has joined #webgui
20:03 < macOnki> hi
20:03 <@snapcount> hello
20:09 <@snapcount> mdawg: my AIM is snapc0unt if you're having troubles with dcc 
20:20 <@snapcount> !bash
20:20 <@WRE> |bash 9662| corpratewar: gah, why would somebody encode a song @ 28kbps 
20:20 <@WRE> |bash 9662| arkain88: Thats so small it could fit through a condom. 
20:20 <@snapcount> !bofh
20:20 <@WRE> BOFH Quick-excuse: Police are examining all internet packets in the search for a narco-net-traficer
20:21 <@snapcount> whoa
20:21 <@snapcount> have any of you guys seen google today?
20:21 <@snapcount> their logo is in braile
20:22 <@snapcount> the raised bumps are not translating correctly through my monitor however
20:22 <@snapcount> I can't feel them
20:22 < macOnki> !cluebat
20:22 < macOnki> :-)
20:23 <@snapcount> WRE has much to learn
20:23 <@snapcount> he is but a minimalist at present with few tricks
20:28 <@snapcount> !seen rizen
20:28 <@WRE> rizen (n=rizen@c-67-184-239-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net) was last seen parting #WebGUI 11 hours, 19 minutes ago stating "{}".
21:13 -!- snapcount [i=snapcoun@64-193-14-144.dtb.clearwire-dns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:23 -!- crythia1 [n=gyoung@pcp06077902pcs.bntasp01.fl.comcast.net] has joined #webgui
21:23 -!- mode/#webgui [+o crythia1] by xdanger
21:24 -!- crythias was kicked from #webgui by crythia1 [crythia1]
21:24 <@crythia1> oops
21:27 <@crythia1> !bash
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| * go_boy getting his haujobb on
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <jej> i read that as 'handjob'
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <go_boy> i assumed you would
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <jej> you can always count on me.
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <go_boy> for a handjob?
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <jej> of course.
21:27 <@WRE> |bash 10499| <go_boy> rockin. 
21:28 <@crythia1> interesting.
21:28 <@crythia1> !help
21:28 <@crythia1> !bash
21:28 <@WRE> |bash 10732| <Locke> Thats three nights in a row I've been awake and glanced at the clock and seen 3:14 and thought 'Hahaha, it's Pi Time. Man Pi Time, how lame, I can't believe I thought that' 
21:33 <@mdawg> !bash
21:33 <@WRE> |bash 26778| <LunchPailTree> the moral of this story is: if you have no morals, go get yourself a 12 year old friend so you can fuck her after you drug her 
21:34 <@crythia1> hrm.
21:34 <@crythia1> tasteless much?
21:35 <@mdawg> yeah.
21:35 <@mdawg> sry; not my fault.
21:35 <@mdawg> !bash
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah> i hate sex.
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <niggals> WHAT?!!! WHY?!!!!!!!!!!
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah> because it isn't moral and christian
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah> and its killing youth 
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah> and its the cause for many diseases
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah> and so many people who are underage are having it
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <niggals> well then how the fuck come your sn is 'oh yeah'
21:35 <@WRE> |bash 33616| <ohyeah>  i can't tal